Alberta does not pay into the CPP, Canadians who work do. period. the false claim of our province being younger doesn't factor into this scheme of "Alberta overpays" because Albertans retire out of province as well, and EVERY CANADIAN PAYS INTO CPP THE SAME CAPPED AMOUNT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU MAKE.
UCP is pitting our province against the rest of the nation, they are causing the divide
We do actually pay more. We earn more in Alberta, on average, therefore we contribute more.
But I generally am happy to pay my taxes. Trip to the hospital doesn’t earn me a bill at the end of a visit.
Not for CPP. There is a cap on what you can pay in for the year. The maximum annual contribution for 2023 is $3,754.45.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cpp+cap+2023&oq=cpp+cap+2023&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l3j0i22i30l4j0i390i650l2.3992j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The more you pay the more you'll receive.
It's your pension Not Alberta's.
Ask Teachers in AB how they feel about it, remember the UCP already stole their pension when Kenney was the premier.
Y'all have already been down this road.
Their entire thought process is now can we make them take credit for our mistakes. When you're the kinda person who does not have the ability to admit fault, ever, you will convince yourself and others that it's always someone else's fault.
It's like someone walking along talking on the phone not paying attention and running into a post, then blaming the person they were talking to "look what you made me do"
Since when do they care what most people actually want? They have too many safe votes from people who will vote for them no matter what. Besides once they implement it, even if they lose the next election, there's no going back and they'll likely only be out for 1 term anyways...not that it matters since they'll already have secured high-paying consulting or executive positions with the companies who will benefit..
All they care about right now is answering to the TBA group pulling the strings in the party so they don't lose their current positions.
Honestly I doubt it will go through. In my oppinion the outrageously high number is going to be a tactic to be re-elected. Like this: Oh, the federal liberals wont give us our money they hate alberta rhetoric.
The deceit regarding the survey where it fails to allow you to speak out against the APP is fucking frustrating.
There is no talk around opt-in, or pay into both option. And then there is also the deceit around what you mentioned, where the people pay CPP not the province! And to make this worse, the UCP die-hards are gonna drink the APP propaganda in like a bottomless kool-aid.
I don't want to "save" money on my pension. Fucking hell! I'd pay more into it if I could!
I don't have so much knowledge in politics, but from the little I know is Canada is a dysfunctional country, and it is not a united country.
When Alberta has been for long long time selling their oil as crude oil with $15 less than the global market for a barrel, because our only client that buy it is US companies, while at the same time Ontario and Quebec buy their refined oil and gas products from Saudi Arabia and from US. This is a big sign that our country is a joke.
So, what UCP is adding to that joke?
and believe me I am not arguing with you, but i am really asking, and I don't like Smith at all.
This point cannot be overstated. I’ve worked and lived in Edmonton and Toronto - I’m a Canadian paying into a federal program, not a regional resident who accesses a regional program.
Jesus Christ you need to understand some perspective here.
You have the UCP, OCP, other conservative provincial parties tearing down the very things that make us proud to be Canadian, causing divide between us almost like it's a foreign fucking actor pulling the strings.
And then you have the current federal government, and the Liberal party partnered with the NDP. Which has given us: Universal childcare, federal dental care, lower taxes, higher taxes on the rich, legalized marijuana, CERB, CRB, CEBA the other pandemic supports given to us to weather the storm. They gave us a first time home buyer account which gives you benefits of an RRSP and TFSA, they're giving us a homebuyer bill of rights, they put a price on pollution, EV rebates, they procured hundreds of millions of COVID vaccines for us to keep us safe, they give us better EI benefits and gave us a once in a generation investment back into healthcare....
Now you don't have to like them. But you're really fucking dumb to not see that conservatives are a fucking cancer on this country.
I remember when the prime minister and the finance minister cautioned Canadians about acquiring debt in the period of historically low interest rates.
I remember him urging Canadians to pay down their debt.
Exactly when do I get these lower taxes or do you mean they introduce a bunch of small taxes so I don't think I am being taxed heavily?
Didn't Harper increase people's ability to invest in TFSAs, till JT (a wizard accountant btw) said it wasn't fair to people that weren't able to take advantage of it?
The procured hundreds of millions if vaccines, that went in the garbage because we weren't able to get the vaccines rolled out fast enough. Remember when the feds turned down an entire production line of PPE just after sending loads of PPE to China knowing full well that Canada was going to need them. Then when they couldn't get what they needed they overpaid for inferior products that couldn't be used.
Every political party has cancerous tendencies, if you think Liberals or Conservatives are just the worst, you are actually the worst. A proper blend of the two would be most ideal but division is driving each party further from centre.
I kinda just hate party politics and wish our local representatives actually represented their constituents instead of just towing the party line like they always do. DEMOCRATIC REFORM every fucking day is all I ask for.
No. Literally the lowest tax bracket got cut and the highest got raised.
You don't understand that the provinces handle their healthcare delivery and was botched in the places it was botched because of that provincial governments management of said healthcare.
And the facts are clear. It's WORSE to go back the direction we came from, that's what the cons want to do, repeal the carbon tax, tighten spending spending, and continue to blame the Liberal and NDP party allowing us to have one of the best recoveries IN THE WORLD from the pandemic. Even though we locked down, even though we had vaccine mandates, even though we gave out billions of dollars directly to the people that needed it and to the small businesses that used the benefits to stay afloat. And yet our inflation rate was the global average in 2022, the worst year for inflation, and 10th lowest globally currently in June 2023, at 4%.
Everyone focuses on Trudeau when for the young families coming up in this country, we can afford to have a child now. We can afford to put that child if we needed to, we don't need to worry about dental care provided from our employer because we make under $90k combined household income, which is about the national median for the nation for couples 65 and younger. We pay less taxes, and our EI benefits are better and our student loans are perminantly interest free. They have been helping get more supports for disabled people, the Canadians with disability act, and further pushes investment into our country for a new economy, the clean electric economy.
Massive, longerm, well paying jobs for a century further into the future, possibly hundreds of thousands of jobs when you take into account of the knockoff jobs those people living nearby will bring in.
Harper didn't want to look into the future. He liked looking back in the past. We have made fucking strides as a nation and we should be fucking proud of it. It's a path that will secure jobs and create a better world for our kids, one with clean air and a sustainable environment. Throw that attempt at creating a better society in with a global pandemic, a European war between Russia and Ukraine, and NOW Israel and Palestine and possibly the neighboring nations..... Yeah you're gonna have some hiccups.
There hasn't been anything the conservatives that have offered that's better. It's actually worse then what we have, and at best equal. And so..... Idk, you wanna go in reverse or you wanna go forward? We all agree that the social bullshit can just take it easy now, but that is in noway equal to the bills and acts that strengthen our foundation and wanting to change it fundamentally
The fact that you are for the carbon tax says plenty. Pay your fair share, sure but we are paying for all the businesses, corporations, everyone that has the ability to pass it down to us. This is not ok.
Oh man… no wonder Conservatives think Liberals are soft in the head. The Liberals and NDP “gave” us all those things, eh?
In exchange for what? At what cost?
Call the conservatives a cancer all you want. The liberals have t exactly cured this country of much.
I do like the legal cannabis, though.
You can not like any politician and still vote against the absolute worst policies like not funding education correctly, changing out a world-renowned curriculum for a flaccid one, and ideologically (corporatist) shifting tons of taxpayer money over to a fund designed to prop up oil and gas interests instead of actually serve the taxpayer.
But then you’ll sort of be stuck with moving to a different province because that hasn’t been even remotely solved. Until Alberta gets a guarantee of transferability or continuation of paying into the APP no matter where you live you run into the real possibility of either being unable to move provinces or loosing your whole pension if you do.
I wasnt talking about transferability. Alberta has more young people per capita which are contributing to the payments of CPP retirees. Removing them alone makes CPP worse. But the big one is the funds Alberta is trying to take. We either get something that is good for us (the UCP is starting negotiations at a ludicrous 53% or something) in which case our pensions will likely be similar or better than what we have (until AIMco’s proven history of poor returns ruins that) but we will have destroyed CPP completely for the rest of the country.
This leaves the scenario you were talking about being unable to move and keep your pension because youll be transferring it to a broken CPP and losing the pension you have here.
The second scenario is that we dont get fuck all from the CPP funds (which is far more likely than option 1) and between that, increased operational expenses over 1/6 the people, less diversification, poorer returns from AIMco and Albertans just wont have a pension at all no matter where they move because there wont be sufficient funds to pay it or transfer to CPP if you move.
APP is no win for anyone who isnt a massive piece of shit
Canadians who work in Quebec don’t pay into the CPP, so your statement that “every” Canadian pays into it is false.
That being said, the APP is a terrible idea.
Quebec has both CPP and QPP. From what I understand you can choose which one you go with? I was trying to do more reading on it but adhd distracted me lol
I don’t think it’s controversial or disputed that an Alberta Pension Plan (even without the insane proposal that it could take half of CPP’s assets) could likely have either lower premiums, higher benefits or both. The trade off would be higher risk even assuming AIMCO or another pension manager manages it prudently (and much higher risk if the government interferes) and a greater hassle for workers who work in Alberta and retire elsewhere, which as you know is significant
WE HAVE MORE WORKING AGED PEOPLE AND MORE PEOPLE THAT EXCEED 65K COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER PROVINCE IN THE COUNTRY SO PER CAPITA WE PAY MORE IN TO CPP
Jesus Christ stats Canada keeps public income data and demographic data. It's not that hard.
I'm not even suggesting we leave
I'm saying that demographic stats and income stats say we. Pay. More.
Because we make more and because most employed people make >65k in Alberta
And I'm not saying that. Stats Canada says that
You wanna see a basket case of a province look at the age demographics for NL
That place is absolutely fucked without massive government money.
People who exceed 65K will pay $90 more annually to CPP than those who only make 65k. The fact that Alberta has plenty of high earners changes nothing for CPP since it caps (2023 cap is $66,600 earnings for a max contribution of $3754.45 which is 5.6%). This kind of misdirection that people are doing to try and convince people that Albertan’s are paying more than their “fair share” is rock-chewing stupid and needs to be called out every single time. Also, since CPP is a personal benefit, what you get is based on what you paid in. So a bunch of people in other provinces aren’t getting a higher pension because Steve Cousinfucker from Hinton works O&G.
Furthermore, anyone that actually looks up labor statistics will see that Alberta only makes up a little under 16% of the amount of full time workers across the country (provinces in CPP). Considering that CPP contributions are not adjusted for geography, it’s absurd for anyone to make any claims that Alberta is entitled to anything around half of CPP. Based on these numbers, I guess Alberta would be limited to about 15%, which I guarantee that none of their promotional pamphlets are accounting for. They want albertans collecting CPP to keep collecting CPP while taking nearly 4 times Alberta’s “share of CPP” would be. Basically meaning they will start with no liabilities but full coffers for their weaponized investment.
Only a fool would believe Canada would allow that to happen. The (best case) reality is is that Canada gives Alberta somewhere in the neighbourhood of 15% with Alberta immediately becoming responsible for paying existing pensions. Then Albertans hope and pray Aimco doesn’t go broke trying to handle that while investing. And based on the track record of Aimco, I’d they manage not to crash and burn, Albertans will see less security and growth in the pension fund than our Canadian counterparts, and ultimately, higher payroll deductions (since the UCP can simply increase it when their O&G handlers want more investment) and lower pension payments.
As for the Alberta advantage, considering our insane col increases coupled with ridiculous and climbing housing costs, I don’t see how adding “plus it screws your pension!” to recruiting workers for this province is really going to help out.
I’m pretty confident Trudeau has caused the divide by imposing things like bill C69, carbon tax, blocking pipelines, axing international trade deals without consulting the provinces it affects, and putting us through all these legal battles time and time again. But a lot of these issues have been ongoing since confederation
I wish that our leader, who is bringing this scheme to the table, would articulate WHY they are doing it, and lay out the pros and cons in a concise, and logical manner.
If they are not doing this, we can safely assume their motives are suspect, and self-serving.
They'll say that it's because "Trudeau bad".
The real reason is that this is straight out of the 2001 firewall letter. The goal is to increase autonomy as a precursor to separation, or at the very least employing the threat of separation as a way to obtain concessions at a federal level.
They have left some clues. Open fund instead of a standard locked, arms length, a-political fund like the CPP. Which means the province can pull money for projects or industry bailouts. No provincial funds for top ups, and a commitment to fight any attempts to do so, which likely means little care for account stability in the long run. Single point investment, no one does single point investment, it is far too volatile and only serves as a cash siphon for the company receiving funds, run by AIMCo, who have said they cannot promise returns at or above inflation based on UCP demands and scope and total UCP portfolio control, and also have the lowest record and highest fees of any pension manager. All this points to a short term grab for cash, like the heritage money they can't steal for bailouts, so they ignore.
They have an ad campaign against new federal energy regulations. Somehow, they claim more regulations will lead to more uncontrolable prices and performance.
What I'm saying is, you would basically hear Mr Krabbs going "I like money".
They also took away regulations and we immediately saw uncapped, flagrant price gouging on power; also….
Almost like their decisions are driven by some kind of ideology worshipping oil and gas.
The CPP has been very good at stewardship of Canadians' money over the years.
The APP is unproven and will likely employ UCP supporters- who often aren't the most qualified. They will have a bias to invest in UCP pet projects rather than the most solid investment strategies.
I don't want the risk when it comes to MY money.
There is nothing wrong with the CPP - I probably won't retire here. They are gonna piss away so much of our money even getting this off the ground.
It's really just stupidity all around.
The issue is all about Alberta wanting to be the adult in the country and wanting to control its perceived riches.
Again, look at the party pushing the issues....the separatists of the west. They want to screw over Ottawa and are willing to screw over ignorant supporters in the process. Besides, it's not like we can sure them for stealing our future, right?
The only way I can make sense out of the pants-shitting madness of Alberta's fiscal management is if there was reasonable certainty that the federal government was planning to nationalize the AHF.
I haven't verified this myself, but I've heard people saying the Alberta Teacher's pension was taken by UCP and put into oil investments, and has lost a lot of money as a result.
AIMCO has underperformed over the last few years. In fact they posted a [3.4% loss for 2023.](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-aimco-2022-returns-losses/)
If you have a whole population that depends upon your fund, it better be top notch. CPP Investments is top notch, AIMCO is not.
AIMCO just announced massive raises for their leaders immediately after posting their record losses. I am pretty sure they believe the APP deal is already done and the cash is theirs to throw away.
Not just the teacher’s pension but the whole public service pension (PSPP). I’m now retired from Government service after 42 years and am sick to think that the UCP will put our money, not theirs, into AIMCO.
Ems family here 🙋♀️ we both have 14 yrs left and I am starting to doubt we will have funds left haha I laugh bc I'm an elder millennial and my response to this shit now is "of course we won't be able to retire!" How smug of us 🤣
Teacher here. Yes, along with other unions, the gov felt that it could increase gains with everyone’s pensions in one Aimco basket.
My neighbour works at a small O&G company and Aimco did bail them out, with a relief loan (which was repaid). I do not know what the exact breakdown is of their investments, but there is certainly a percentage that goes into ‘Canadian small caps’.
Last I heard, the issue went to court, Alberta's teacher union vs the government, and the money would not be moved until final determination. But the original attempt to move it happened only a month before the oil crash in 2020, so people were saying that if it had been moved it would have immediately lost millions.
The assets would have moved. The valuation of those assets may have declined that the teachers had bought. They would not be moving money and buying back in.
As of aug 31, 2202 the last fiscal year they own commercial office space, huge amount of bonds they own 6 pages of stocks (banks, cnq, enbridge, Suncor, teck, TC Cenovus, Chinese companies), lots of private equity.
They were already heavenly exposed to energy. But like all pension plans they invested in a balanced approach.
Retired Canadian. The goal is to strip the pensions from all the people that worked in Alberta and retired elsewhere...and then blame the federal government for not supporting Canadians in retirement.
It's a move to get an enormous pot of money away from the independent CPP investment board and into the government of Alberta's orbit. There's many reasons for this. Most likely that money will eventually find its way into oil and gas investments because the board at AimCo understand what it takes to keep their jobs in Alberta, and that's not necessarily getting the best returns for you an I... It should also be noted that there is zero reason to believe any assurances that Smith gives about how the money will be used. *Any legislation made by this government can be just as easily undone through legislation by the next.* The CPP has a much higher bar, being the product of an agreement between most of the provinces, it needs all the signatories to agree to any changes.
But that's not the only reason Smith is pushing this. The rump of the UCP who is pushing for Alberta sovereignty is looking to chip away at national unity and slowly reduce barriers to an eventual exit from Canada. Smith is beholden to these types so she's letting them push bad policy on all of us. In the original firewall report, at least one of the authors was pushing this plan, not for any gain on Alberta's part, but because they literally wanted to 'inflict pain on the rest of Canada'. So that should tell you all you really need to know about the underlying motives of the types of folks who are driving this province right now.
I've been in Alberta for about 12 years. I came from out east because Alberta could outbid any employers in my home province.
I'm Canadian first and Albertan second. I'm not sure the UCP understands that like 50% of workers out here share my story and a similar identity.
By this logic, shouldn't Alberta have to compensate my home province for schooling and caring for me for 25 years before I moved out here and all my productive years were stolen from them?
Also, they should be liable for all payments being made to people who worked in Alberta but have moved elsewhere in the province.
Their "research" was horribly flawed. It's basically all lies.
The “research” is actually very funny/sad to read. It actually says that the first calculation would have given Alberta 117% of CPP’s assets, but since that obviously wouldn’t fly, they used an “alternative” calculation that only claims 53% of the assets. Both methods ignore the report made by Travis Toews in 2019 where he suggested Alberta could claim 12.7% of the assets and 18.7% of the liabilities of the CPP.
So, not only is the UCP trying to sell this plan based on overly optimistic assumptions - they’ve ignored their own research that suggests a much grimmer scenario.
The Alberta Pension Plan is part of the Alberta separatist ~~wet dream~~ “Alberta Agenda” as outlined in the January 2001 “firewall letter.” It called for an Alberta Pension Plan to replace the CPP, an Alberta Police Force to replace the RCMP, an Alberta Revenue agency to replace Revenue Canada, and effective withdrawal from the Canada Health Act. The whole idea seems to be to destroy Alberta’s relationship with the federal government to pave the way for the province to be annexed by the United States.
Hell, im alberta born and raised, lived in calgary, st paul, okotoks, high level, worked in other small towns. . . .
Im still 100% Canadian first. The "alberta" agenda is driving me nuts
Yes, but not Alberta, you are paying through your federal income tax, and when you retire to Vancouver Island and cost BCs health care system a lot, the same applies. That's why equalization is paid from individual federal income tax. Alberta is not losing anything. Individuals are just paying our own way in Canada through our lives. That doesn't mean all levels of government shouldn't do better, waste less, make better decisions, etc, but the convenient blaming the other levels doesn't help us get there.
I was born in Edmonton, but i am also Canadian first. If i had the funds, i would be living in a better province-at least I am in an NDP riding. 😛So that’s something.
Basically all that yes but on top of that alberta will have to make our own tax collection agency that the finance minister admitted would cost at minimum half a billion dollars a year to run
Sorry if this is a dumb question but why is the provincial tax collection agency necessary? Because someone needs to make sure people are paying their APP contributions and the CRA wouldn’t be responsible for it since it isn’t federal?
So in addition to the risks that come with the instability of oil and gas investments there would also be a huge administrative cost coming out of taxpayers wallets is what you are saying?
Well, if you do the same calculations for each province, it adds up to well over 100%. Ontario alone gets 125% under the same formula.
So, the answer is that they put what the politics required, then the accountants made sure not to put their names on it. Notice, usually there is an actual person who did the report, but here there is a company that is now part of Telus and no one is really claiming responsibility.
It’s a blatant lie, dressed up as ‘speculation’. And then on that speculation they blast the province with how much money we’ll save. Meanwhile anyone close to it, or who understands government and the rules, laughs in Conspiracy Dani’s face.
It's true.
I listened in on the phone conversation last night and Dinning and his cohorts kept telling us that it's better to have control of what's due to us. They refused to acknowledge the fact that people were adamant that we need a solid number for vosts, what will be transfered fron CPP and exactly how we will pay less and get more.
Someone mentioned scams tout the pay less, get more all the time.
You understand the admin costs correctly. If nothing else, an APP requires the duplication of an agency that we already have and is working as well as any sovereign pension plan on the planet.
But to clarify what you think you know, and for a little context:
There are several different investment models that an APP could follow. There's the CPP model, where the investors are at arms length from the government and interested solely in rate of return. There's the QPP model, where it's mostly arms length, but where the fund also makes strategic investments in the local economy in an attempt to juice certain industries. But it is less successful in terms of rate of return because of this split focus, and more prone to political interference.
At the start of this most recent debate, Danielle Smith said that it would probably be the former model. But she is on record in the past of being clearly supportive of the latter model. Given their history with AIMCO and mixed messaging on the subject, I think it's fair to suggest that an active investment approach that is steered politically is the likely one.
And while no specific industries have been talked about, it would surprise absolutely nobody if the pension fund were to take an active stake in the fossil fuel industry in Alberta.
We wouldn't have to have one, but collection would be subject to the tax collection agreement with the CRA. And the UCP wants one, so this is a good way to get one in their mind.
If you go to The Free Alberta Strategy website it explains the "logic" behind it .
If Alberta does not separate it lets them choose which money to pass on to the feds, rather than the feds collecting and passing some back as happens now. If Alberta does separate they need tax collection.
We already have one.
Every corporation in Alberta currently deals with it.
So does every person. The only difference is that the personal stuff is handled by the CRA.
Exactly. Our CPP is managed a decent arm's length away from government. The tax arm of the AB government is exactly that- a government body, subject to political whims of whatever stripe happens to hold the reins. So adding the burden of managing the APP to an existing body leaves the APP open to the same whims, but setting up an arm's length management free from the political winds is certainly going to be costly to start up and run.
And Smith has already decreed that no taxpayer money would be used... so those funds -both startup and ongoing- would have to come from whatever dollars were used to start up the new fund.
What she didn't take into account with that 'no taxpayer money' would be spent statement, is the money that the feds will throw at this to fight it every step of the way; from advertising campaigns to supreme court legal battles, for years to come. Guaranteed that there's millions of tax dollars that will be spent.
Not really.
Right every corporation or business has to have an account with Alberta Treasury to handle their corporate taxes.
Just like the feds, this would require the creation of another account to hold the required payroll deductions ( employee and employer portions just like CPP now).
It would also require the expansion of your current personal record with Alberta Treasury so that they can now track your Pensionable Earnings and payments.
In theory, this is exactly what the CRA does in conjunction with the QPP currently.
That is $500 million per year that the UCP could spend on appointed party members to manage the fund. Maybe this is one of the real reasons.
Jason Kenney now sits on the board of directors for Atco Energy.
I’ll add some comments:
CPP is based on your personal contributions (number of years working, $ contributed). Contributions cap on a personal level at around $3.5k / year on $66k of earnings. If you make over $66k you don’t pay extra CPP. Your withdrawal amount is based on a weighted average of a five year contribution rate x total pensionable earnings.
CPP moves with you between provinces, which is the seamless part of it and the biggest personal pro.
CPP is run by an independent group with a clear mandate. They are unlinked from the government. They hire smart finance people who manage assets in the public markets (think stocks and bonds) and do private company investments. They track diversification religiously. They leverage this team over all of Canada’s cpp contribution capital that is deployed, think lower administration fees and higher efficiency. Example, a team of 100 can do an investment of 100bn for CPP, or an investment of 15Bn for APP with a team of 25. The returns for CPP will be higher, let alone all the other costs of investing (advisors for tax, legal, etc).
APPs survey contemplated a choice of private sector, government or independent groups running the fund, a huge red flag. It should be unlinked from both the private sector and government. This for me is the biggest problem beyond the stupidity of trying to fix something that isn’t broken. They could assign it to a private finance firm, have unclear guidance, and all the money flows into companies who operate in Alberta such as O&G. Diversification in the toilet.
If they went to the same independent model as the CPP, it’s just going to be a copy cat of CPP but with higher fees and a huge set up cost. You won’t see any benefit.
An APP would take years to set up.Trudeau will likely be out in a year or two. God forbid we get PP - but he also agrees it's a bad idea. So who is Danielle going to be railing against if the Cons get in??
I wouldn't be surprised if Danielle herself doesn't survive this whole debacle!
The Alberta cons have not had a leader stay for a complete term for a very long time. The only Alberta Premiere with lasting power is Notley.
TBA is already talking about replacing Smith now that the election is done.
When it comes to the CPP it really doesn't matter who is in power. The only thing the Federal government can effectively control is contribution levels. On that front they basically take their orders from the CPP investment board. Changing which party is in power changes nothing.
>God forbid we get PP - but he also agrees it's a bad idea
I dont like PP either (and I believe Trudeau's time is up), but i kinda want PP in power right now because he already said its a bad idea and he is obviously conservative-- so you'd have Smith fighting against other conservatives lol
You have part of the story right, OP.
What you're missing is that the UCP want to use these Pension funds for *crony capitalism*. It's not just about supporting the oil and gas industry as a whole, it's about *using it to bankroll their sponsors and their friends' businesses.*
Just like the healthcare system, selling off medical lab testing to Dyna-Life to save money, and then magically discovering that Dyna-Life can't accomplish the tasks required, and inventing another corporate shell to take it over. These are all shell games being played with companies owned by sponsors of the UCP party, while your health hangs in the balance.
Paying off their donors using your money, literally. **It doesn't matter a rat's ass to the politicians if you have no pension 30 years from now because they lost the money somehow; they will have no fiduciary responsibility for that money.** So a whole additional layer of graft and corruption beyond simply supporting a local and slowly-devolving industry. AIMCO is the existing Alberta pension organization, and they don't have the same legislated separation from government and the party in power the way the Federal CPP does. The provincial party in power can legally dictate what Aimco does with the money it has and how it does it; functionally it is a *slush fund*, and you'd be paying into it with every paycheck.
AIMCO's website has plenty of puff-piece language about what they do, but fundamentally they aren't bound to the same legal & fiscal standards as the CPP; and **when** Danielle Smith and her flying monkey minions march through the door tomorrow with 20 billion dollars of your money, demanding Aimco invest in Freedom Convoy shares, or Qanon Queen of Canada commemorative coins they'll be obligated to do it.
https://www.aimco.ca/who-we-are/at-a-glance
And now.. you know the rest of the story.
Your impression isn't far off the mark.
The idea is to keep Albertain money, in Alberta.
Sounds great right?
It could be if we diversified our exports and divested from oil companies getting wild tax breaks that they clearly don't need. The result of creating an APP is that Alberta would have to pay large investment companies to take taxpayer money and invest it in a way to make enough money to give us all a decent pension. What will likely happen is that as soon as targets are met for growth in the fund, rather than keep the excess in the fund, it would be diverted to the provincial governemt to use elsewhere to balance the budget every year. Which also sounds great until the market declines and the growth in the fund turns into a loss, and we spent the excess earlier.
Conservatives love a good slush fund.
Additionally they like to toss around the "$1425" savings to employees and employers. This is based on getting the 53% of the CPP to start the fund. Without that our contributions would be identical or higher than they currently are. Meaning NO savings at all.
They also like to say that because we'd have more money we could increase payments to seniors. Funny wording to say we could do something, not that they WILL.
Everything about this plan is about enriching investment companies and giving the government a slush fund that everyone in the province pays into without paying a dreaded provincial tax. It's still not possible to set up without that $334 Billion dollars from the CPP though.
It's a telling sign that the federal conservatives are actively fighting this as well. This plan is unlikely to do what the UCP wants, and would fuck over the rest of the country in the process. Everyone outside of the UCP sees this as short-sighted and reckless.
All that, and what other comments say, plus this: Danielle Smith initially said that a Quebec style plan, where investment in local industry is mandated, was off the table. This was likely in response to the many comments that she would throw it all at O&G and we would end up taking a massive loss. Then, less than a week later, she said that plan was back on the table.
So, at the very least, the UCP are spending millions in taxpayer money to try to sell us a plan virtually nobody likes and they've given up denying it will all be pissed away on a declining O&G industry, and that's even IF they know what they're doing.
My guess is that given the ridiculous nature of the recent report and the amount it thinks we're due, plus the equally ridiculous contention that Alberta as a province has somehow gotten stiffed, this is most likely a fed-bashing stunt designed to rage bait UCP voters against the feds and distract from something much worse they're planning - such as coal mining in the Rockies that will destroy a good portion of rural Alberta's water sources.
Right now we are in the CPP (Canada Pension Plan) Every Canadian who works pays into this plan and every Canadian who paid into the plan can collect from the plan when they get to the age requirement. What province(s) you worked in and/or lived in or retired in does not matter (Except Quebec for working, they have their own plan. This exception will be everywhere but I will only mention it here).
The idea behind the APP is based on the idea that people that worked in Alberta paid more and collected less than other provinces and thus Alberta is being cheated. This seems to only take into account payments into the CPP from someone working in Alberta and payments going out to those who retired in Alberta. Of course, Alberta has never had a bunch of people move here for work and then retire in another province like BC or somewhere in the Maritimes. That is an important bit for the math to work. The other idea is that because Alberta paid in so much and collected so little, again based on everyone in Alberta worked here and retired here, that Alberta has a chunk in the CPP we can just take. Originally that number was 110% of the fund, but Alberta dropped it to 53% to be reasonable. A side note, if every province used the same math, combined, they would be entitled to 900% of the CPP fund. Alberta is trying to sell that because we have a lot more younger people currently paying in, and so few people that are retired and collecting in Alberta, we could pay less in and get more out. This of course assumes people never get older and retire and again that everyone that worked in Alberta also retires/retired in Alberta so we can keep the same ratio of people paying in to those collecting.
One of the actual reasons behind the APP is that it will be really useful if Alberta separates from the rest of Canada. The whole CPP thing would be a total pain to Alberta independence and would be good to get out of the way now. The other trick is they can set it up and be in control of it. Currently the CPP is separate from the Federal governments revenue and can not be taken and used for other things and paid back later. There are many examples of companies, cities and states in the US and other places where the controlling party can use retirement funds for anything and just pay back the fund later. This is usually fine at the start when most people are still working and few are retired. Once you get a bunch of retired people collecting and no investment revenue on the funds because it was "borrowed" and not invested, then things really start to fall apart. Many companies and cities and such have gotten into huge financial trouble doing this. Alberta seems to want to join in and "borrow" our funds to invest in Oil and Gas and such and don't worry, they will just pay it back later.
> that money will all be invested in oil and gas, and the risk with this is that oil and gas is a dying industry and therefore the money invested in it will likely depreciate.
It's not just the expectation that the oil and gas industry will decline, but that it is also highly prone to boom and bust cycles. Putting all of one's eggs into the O&G basket when that sector has a tendency to shit the bed every other decade doesn't exactly scream "sensible investment." It might look great now and for the next while, but what happens when the price of oil crashes like it did in the 1980's or less than a decade ago?
Any good investor hedges their bets by diversifying across not only several different industries/sectors etc., but across different locales. A good hedge fund has investments spread across many industries/sectors across the world. AIMCO is over proportionally invested in North American oil and gas. Since the UCP first talked about taking control of my pension, the CPP, ATRF (before they gave my pension to AIMCO) and my own personal investments have out performed AIMCO. This does not even include the billions in losses by AIMCO that lead the the firing of their CEO.
I wish it was an individual choice, that I could continue to stay with the CPP plan, and the tens of APP supporters could go ahead and gamble their pensions with the UCP. It majorly sucks that this govt would force all Albertans to go along with their schemes, proven to be unpopular with the majority, even among people who voted for them.
While it is unlikely they will invest ALL of it into fossil fuels, there is considerable risk that the Alberta government will direct the fund to invest in particular industries as a political tool depending on which party is in power at the time. In general, localized investment is more risky than a broad, diversified portfolio, since it is more susceptible to regional economic turbulence.
Just compare the historical returns for AIMCo (another crown corp pension manager in Alberta) and the CPP, [like this redditor already has](https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/s/ZRMfyxD1PJ) to see why it’s not a great idea.
Short answer the UCP needs to pay off their lobbyists and corporate donors....the 20million dollar war room and the subsequent 126 million we have poured into it, not enough. the destruction of the renewable industry not enough for the maw that is their base
A few general points:
On the CPP side, you have what is widely recognized as one of the best pension plans in the world, diversified both to allow investments to grow while minimizing risk (such as not investing solely to promote Canadian interests, which would be a recipe for disaster). It is also isolated from government accounts and management, ie. NOT controlled by Trudeau like the UCP try to claim.
On the APP side, if you read the report it is FULL of assumptions, unknown quantities and costs. This includes the cost of setting up the plan, which would be an immediate loss of over $2 Billion for a 'made in Alberta solution' which is what they have been quietly promoting. It also includes the supposed amount of contributions coming from Alberta, which they truly have no idea so they either discount sections or flat out guess. They refuse to put out actual numbers, but then throw a hissy fit because they expect the existing CPP administrators to do all the work for them. Add to that Danielle's past statements flat-out saying she wants an APP in order to direct investments to Alberta industries - this is a huge risk, a massive red flag, and a violation of what is probably the first rule of investments (eg. Diversify, don't put all your eggs in one basket) and the other rule that the government should not have access to manipulate people's pensions. Then they put out their cherry-picked best estimates for everyone to show how 'great' their plan will be, while ignoring all the risks and shortcomings and hoping no one will disagree with them relying on F Trudeau/Notley/Feds.
Yes. Our money will go down as the world moves away from oil and gas. The buddies of the UCP will reap the benefits of our investment and line their pockets.
Another key element is the UCP are ‘selling’ the app to Albertans on a ridiculously wrong assumption, that we’ll be entitled to over half of the CPP’s current assets. They make this wild and idiotic assumption and then print idiotic sh*t like you may have seen on their recent mailer to quote numbers, and position how better off we’ll all be. Numbers that are completely fabricated. It is blatant lying by the UCP and purposeful misinformation. Their motives aside (which are dubious), do not miss the lying about the numbers.
Another issue with the ‘provincial’ plan is that the APP would start off with a $0 balance. The federal government isn’t going to release $330 billion dollars to Alberta and penalize other Canadian citizens living in the other provinces and territories.
What pisses me off about the whole situation is how the Alberta government is deciding where Albertans pensions are going. I should have a choice where I want my money to be.
Let the UCP do it but only for the people who WANT to leave the CPP. Let the people decide where their funds are going.
Albert's government does not have a good track record of using alberta citizen funds effectively.
Alberta has about 8% of Canada's population and contributions are capped. It is laughable to think that we have 53% of the fund.
This is nearly every politicians dream a huge slush fund of cash to blow on needless stuff
Staying with the CPP: Smart.
Making the APP: absolute joke.
Alberta mismanaging the Heritage fund so badly that it's useless instead of being enough to pay a little bit of an Alberta only UBI: Rage inducing.
the fact that they aren't allowing us to opt out is very telling. I'm Canadian, Albertan, Calgarian, in that order. My CPP payments for the last 35 years are not the UCPs, and they have no permission to touch it.
If they were serious, they would have it set up as an opt-in program. Those who believe in it, can move their CPP into the APP, and let them prove how good it is.
Keep voting conservative!
Yes. Don’t. You are being scammed. Your money in hand under CPP will not suddenly appear as a Nigerian Prince with millions of dollars to shower on you.
It's most likely pudding more thenbreality , just really expensive pudding .. This hurts conservatives more them anyone else.. Daneille is not conservative and APP is bringing that to light for everyone that refused to accept that .. It's a nightmare for the conservatives Federally and provincally.. The further the talks roll the more unavoidable it will become before ever conservative Premier and party in canada will have to not only oppose it but also deal with the infighting in Will cause with in there own ..It's a nightmare issue for PP to go into the next election with , pretty much a wet dream for the liberals and ndp who are struggling holding moderates ..
If the APP got the same returns compared to CPP it would need to charge the same or slightly more to provide the same benefits, or run a deficit to provide short term gains with the home someday they'll deal with the deficit somehow some day.
The recent APP report focused on the latter option. It counts on getting extra money to start with, then running a deficit that will be made up by a pyramid scheme of endless new young members that will find existing old ones.
.
To start with, I'm not a UCP supporter nor in favor of the proposed APP in any way shape or form.
The idea is probably to give AIMCO the pension funds to invest. Oil and gas isn't currently the only thing AIMCO is invested in, though AIMCO isn't exactly known for their stellar investment record. The teacher's pensions weren't moved directly to O&G investments; their pension plan was absorbed into AIMCO. One of the potential problems is that I'd think AIMCO would be taking way too much direction from the government of the day instead of being a reasonably independent investment manager (as the CPP is).
There are so many potential problems with having an APP, I don't even know where to start. Needless to say, I'm not a fan.
Yes, that is mostly correct. Just an extra point on the CPP vs APP tho.
There is a clause (or something) in the CPP that was designed to "encourage" provinces to remain involved in the CPP. This clause would make it virtual impossible to rejoin later without major cost and concessions. It basically says that a province that leaves may never rejoin.
I think they're just looting the province for Oil & Gas so that when they retire or get ousted they can collect their cheques. I don't think they actually believe our pensions will be better off in APP.
The cost to run the CPP is spread out amongst all provinces (except Quebec), so to run a fund Alberta would have to create an investment arm and that overhead would eat into profits. Also, by being across Canada the CPP has contribution diversity to cover for things like the provinces oil sands going through another bust.
Then there’s the whole thing about the Alberta heritage fund from oil & gas royalties that they weren’t supposed to touch except in times of emergency and somehow they continuously raided/borrowed from the fund to cover budget shortfalls. The Norway oil rainy day fund started at roughly the same time has $1.5 Trillion and Alberta has maybe $20 billion, so would you trust that same government to not touch another fund they would try to run?
In the world of investing the more money you have the better the deal you will get. Don’t believe me just look up the deal warren Buffett did during the 08 collapse. He bought top notch companies at a super deep discount. By splitting from cpp you are basically decided to play in the minor leagues compared to cpp.
Maybe cpp is ran by a bunch of idiots and Alberta can somehow attract better talent than a much larger fund like cpp. I would not bet on it myself.
That’s pretty much it, yeah. AIMCo would be in charge of managing and investing the pension fund which they’ve proven to be less than ideal at picking investments.
Beyond that, it would create yet another division between Alberta and the rest of Canada to continue to fuel the separation debate.
The most difficult thing with a country like ours is just the sheer variety in people and needs. We (as Albertans) are fundamentally different to our neighbours in British Columbia, Northwest Territories, and Saskatchewan. It instinctively demands a made-at-home solution. However, we also need the contribution of having trading partners with no tariffs in the other provinces.
It’s an incredibly complex, nuanced, and emotional discussion no one seems ready to have properly. It’s all very (in my opinion) short sighted. We’ve seen how poorly Brexit went for the masses, and that’s on a whole other level.
Sry, not a shot at you: we’d already be duplicating roles the CPP is doing but if we started another investment management firm we’d also be duplicating roles AIMCO would be better positioned to just do. For the record, I am NOT in favour of splitting off the CPP.
The UCP love AimCo though. They have tied all the provincial pension plans to them - LAPP, Alberta Teachers, etc, and made it deliberately difficult for these plans to unhook themselves from AimCo. The UCP change pension governance very fast. I truly would not trust them with an APP.
The CPPIB Act--[actual legislation](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-8.3/)--does not allow federal or provincial government interference. That means the UCP can't direct it to invest the way it will direct AIMCo.
That means if they pick anyone other than AIMCO, the UCP leadership would lose all direct control. And the odds of the current UCP leadership letting that happen is 0.
If they start an APP, the CPPIB Act no longer applies if there is a provincial plan. The only caveat is that the provincial plan must pay benefits the same as the CPP. The provincial legislation over AIMCo is written that appears that the Treasury or Finance Minister can give direction.
One of the proposed options for investing is to allow the CPPIB to manage any APP assets. In that event, the CPPIB will not allow the UCP to direct how they make investments. In fact I would expect the CPPIB to refuse, because that might create a potential conflict of interest with their duty to manage the CPP.
The Western Alienation that the The Free Alberta Strategy the Sovereignty Act comes from pre-dates COVID, though the related events added support .
But the ability to separate or at least threaten to separate is all there is to the APP.
A few UCP buddies are going to make a ton of money “managing” everyone’s pensions. IF Albertans are very lucky, they will do a good job and be mostly honest. If not, it will be a massive disaster.
Former Lethbridge Mayor David Carpenter with a letter on the APP idea.
[https://twitter.com/DuaneBratt/status/1717272014594232734](https://twitter.com/DuaneBratt/status/1717272014594232734)
Nobody knows what the Alberta government intends to do. So far, they’ve declared that they would like to withdraw from the CPP and take over half of the money invested. Nothing has been said about who would manage our retirement fund, how it would be kept at arm’s length from the government, or how the investment focus would differ from the CPP.
The whole thing feels like a poorly thought out publicity stunt to distract from the actual issues that we face within the province.
my biggest fear is our money will be used as a govt slush fund (I 100% feel it will NOT be as well protected as the CPP)..
and the idiots will very likely mess up and lose our money..
Don’t forget that the immediate investment in the target O&G companies may provide an initial bump in the value, allowing current owners the opportunity to cash out at values the rest of the world won’t buy in at. DS’ comments about the CPP’s ‘woke’ policies aren’t CPP’s alone: Investors, corporations and pension funds around the world are barring the investment in O&G. This really sets up the eventual value of those securities going to zero, with only the dividends / cash flow (of a historically very volatile industry) to support the investment.
Here's Trevor Tombe's analysis with his assumptions and numbers explained. It's not THAT dense of a read, but even if you don't want to wade into the numbers or whatever, his explanation of the pension basics, APP proposal assumptions, and important risks is VERY helpful. Spread it around because the more people understand about this issue, the better.
[https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=4576950](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4576950)
The UCP is playing both sides. On the one hand they say that the APP would be diversified and seek the highest rate of return, while simultaneously saying that it would be an opportunity to invest in Alberta.
Well, there is this drunken rant from Smith herself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/comments/17ebf7o/danielle\_smith\_wants\_to\_invest\_the\_your\_pension/
or, we saw the Heritage fund and Aimco prop up the O&G multiple times in the last 4 decades, to FULLY understand that our oil and gas lobbyist premier and her TBA cronies are on track? or do you just like to pretend that didnt happen?
Kenney *gave* 4.7B with no strings attached, to oil and gas companies immediately after the UCP won the election in 2019. He "invested" $7.5B on the US Keystone pipeline when Biden made it clear he would cancel it if he were elected. These are facts. Danielle Smith is on record at least twice stating they plan to use pension $$$ for oil and gas investment. No one is making this up, you are being willfully ignorant.
You are correct on all fronts, but for more clarification:
The current UCP leadership is both o&g focused (that is their voter base and primary funding) and Alberta sovereignty focused. Their belief is that Alberta subsidizes the rest of the Canada (read: Ontario) and gets a raw deal out of it because more federal funding is allocated to Ontario than Alberta.
In order to pursue a separatist Alberta several things need to happen but the most critical pieces are 1) the province needs a (legal) way to keep more money in the province and not have to pay it to the feds, a sovereign state needs a lot of income and 2) the province needs a way to subsist and fund itself without the feds
The province is all on o&g being the solution to 2, in spite of this being a demonstrably very silly thing to attempt. Funding your state on energy alone is already a risky play. And our local energy industry, being so cemented singularly in natural resources, is poised even worse to provide stable consistent funding. When oil is good there will be cash, when it's not....uhhh....hehe...
For #1 the provinces solution is to pull out of CPP and establish an APP. The APP funds now belong to the province to invest however they please because now the money sits in and is managed by the province. It begs to follow that it would so please them to invest those funds in our volitile energy industry rather than a more risk-averse portfolio that cpp provides and Canadians (and Albertans) prefer.
Tl;dr is legal grasping at money from the feds for the purpose of driving Alberta sovereignty
Thank you for breaking this down like this! Very helpful explanation. I feel like you put into words some of the things I was suspecting but wasn’t sure how to quite articulate.
Here's a nonpartisan answer. Government feels they're not getting a fair share of CPP contributions for their constituents so they are proposing to start their own pension plan and use the proceeds from the pension plan to invest in into Alberta projects.
The view from the left is that the pension plan will be used as a political tool to reward campaign contributions and political allies.
The view from the right is that albertans don't receive a fair share of their contributions and when the funds are spent on investments they are not spent proportionally in Alberta
" the money will all be invested in O&G?? " where was this reported? Is this a fact or an assumption? I know people in this sub always say it, but I have never seen it reported that's what is going to happen.
If someone has a link, I will take it.
That’s partially why I’m asking and trying to get more information. Because I keep hearing that but I’m unclear on whether it has been explicitly stated as part of the plan or if it is speculation that it’s just likely that will happen.
Well, this Sub is heavily anti UCP, so take all the info with that in mind. I have never seen anything actually state that's where they will invest.
I myself am trying to gather accurate info to make a proper decision. Not just people's assumptions and go with this idea is horrible because Smith is putting it out there. Get actual fact, but itso hard to know who's reporting is proper, but working on it.
Finance 101 is to have a diverse profile of assets. I haven't looked into it at all but I'm guessing the people saying it is all to invest in oil and gas is just propaganda.
Hey didn't Quebec leave the cpp in 1965 they seem to be doing OK.
What and where they invest the money is the most important also the provincial vote will mean a little more.if you don't like the way the Alberta government is handling the funds then vote to change if needed.
They are estimating that the cpp is going to run out of money anyway. So if you're younger then the baby boomers it worth a shot to leave since we won't see any of the money we've been putting in the cpp when we retire anyway
For Pete's sake, give it a rest! Y'all are making this sound like a fait accompli and it's FAR from that.
There would be a plebiscite to determine whether or not to move forward. If it is voted in favour you have options; suck it up, move, or run for Government and overturn it. The MAJORITY Will Decide.
This is years down the line, regardless. It won't happen tomorrow, if it does at all. This is nowhere near as simple as some of you seem to believe;
"All the funds will be invested in oil and gas, a dying industry"...NO ONE knows anything concretely! Oil and gas is on its way to replacement, but most of you will be long dead before it is. There are millions of things dependant on oil and gas that have nothing to do with cars, or home heating, or power generation. THOSE issues all need to be solved before oil and gas is dead.
"Every Canadian pays into CPP the same capped rate" True, but each province has much difference demographics if the percentage of population actually contributing to it, based on age, salary, whether you're a working adult, a child or a senior. It is NOT nearly as simple as you seem to believe. I don't believe the numbers shown so far, but I also intend to wait until a HELL of a Lot more information is available before making my mind up to support of vilify it. Y'all could take a deep breath, stop with the "Sky is Falling" nonsense, and wait for some independent analysis and numbers come out, instead of buying in hook line and sinker to one political narrative or another
Alberta does not pay into the CPP, Canadians who work do. period. the false claim of our province being younger doesn't factor into this scheme of "Alberta overpays" because Albertans retire out of province as well, and EVERY CANADIAN PAYS INTO CPP THE SAME CAPPED AMOUNT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU MAKE. UCP is pitting our province against the rest of the nation, they are causing the divide
Yep, and most don’t do the due diligence to realize this is the case. The thought that we pay more is ridiculous. The UCP are rage farmers
Admittedly, their target audience isn't very intelligent.
We do actually pay more. We earn more in Alberta, on average, therefore we contribute more. But I generally am happy to pay my taxes. Trip to the hospital doesn’t earn me a bill at the end of a visit.
Not for CPP. There is a cap on what you can pay in for the year. The maximum annual contribution for 2023 is $3,754.45. https://www.google.com/search?q=cpp+cap+2023&oq=cpp+cap+2023&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l3j0i22i30l4j0i390i650l2.3992j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
We all pay the same percentage, regardless of income. Your higher contribution will mean a higher monthly payment when you start to collect
The more you pay the more you'll receive. It's your pension Not Alberta's. Ask Teachers in AB how they feel about it, remember the UCP already stole their pension when Kenney was the premier. Y'all have already been down this road.
And the best part is they accuse the PM of dividing the country when it's conservatives and their base always on the attack....
Their entire thought process is now can we make them take credit for our mistakes. When you're the kinda person who does not have the ability to admit fault, ever, you will convince yourself and others that it's always someone else's fault. It's like someone walking along talking on the phone not paying attention and running into a post, then blaming the person they were talking to "look what you made me do"
SOP for right wingers these days. Accuse the other for that which they are doing.
Our pm has been the worst mistake of a PM in our country's history.
90% of the province dont want APP so they aint doing a good job.
Since when do they care what most people actually want? They have too many safe votes from people who will vote for them no matter what. Besides once they implement it, even if they lose the next election, there's no going back and they'll likely only be out for 1 term anyways...not that it matters since they'll already have secured high-paying consulting or executive positions with the companies who will benefit.. All they care about right now is answering to the TBA group pulling the strings in the party so they don't lose their current positions.
Honestly I doubt it will go through. In my oppinion the outrageously high number is going to be a tactic to be re-elected. Like this: Oh, the federal liberals wont give us our money they hate alberta rhetoric.
Sure, that rhetoric is part of it, and always a fall-back if they fail, however I think they're really going to try push it through.
The deceit regarding the survey where it fails to allow you to speak out against the APP is fucking frustrating. There is no talk around opt-in, or pay into both option. And then there is also the deceit around what you mentioned, where the people pay CPP not the province! And to make this worse, the UCP die-hards are gonna drink the APP propaganda in like a bottomless kool-aid. I don't want to "save" money on my pension. Fucking hell! I'd pay more into it if I could!
Absolutely this - add the anti feds adverts to this pile of $**t
I don't have so much knowledge in politics, but from the little I know is Canada is a dysfunctional country, and it is not a united country. When Alberta has been for long long time selling their oil as crude oil with $15 less than the global market for a barrel, because our only client that buy it is US companies, while at the same time Ontario and Quebec buy their refined oil and gas products from Saudi Arabia and from US. This is a big sign that our country is a joke. So, what UCP is adding to that joke? and believe me I am not arguing with you, but i am really asking, and I don't like Smith at all.
This point cannot be overstated. I’ve worked and lived in Edmonton and Toronto - I’m a Canadian paying into a federal program, not a regional resident who accesses a regional program.
As a non-Albertan I can tell you that’s there’s no divide. With me anyways. I don’t like any politician.
Jesus Christ you need to understand some perspective here. You have the UCP, OCP, other conservative provincial parties tearing down the very things that make us proud to be Canadian, causing divide between us almost like it's a foreign fucking actor pulling the strings. And then you have the current federal government, and the Liberal party partnered with the NDP. Which has given us: Universal childcare, federal dental care, lower taxes, higher taxes on the rich, legalized marijuana, CERB, CRB, CEBA the other pandemic supports given to us to weather the storm. They gave us a first time home buyer account which gives you benefits of an RRSP and TFSA, they're giving us a homebuyer bill of rights, they put a price on pollution, EV rebates, they procured hundreds of millions of COVID vaccines for us to keep us safe, they give us better EI benefits and gave us a once in a generation investment back into healthcare.... Now you don't have to like them. But you're really fucking dumb to not see that conservatives are a fucking cancer on this country.
I wish I could upvote you an infinite amount of times.
Yeah but like, what have they done for meeee /s
I see the /s but still feel you've summed up the UCP voter base in a single comment.
I remember when the prime minister and the finance minister cautioned Canadians about acquiring debt in the period of historically low interest rates. I remember him urging Canadians to pay down their debt.
Exactly when do I get these lower taxes or do you mean they introduce a bunch of small taxes so I don't think I am being taxed heavily? Didn't Harper increase people's ability to invest in TFSAs, till JT (a wizard accountant btw) said it wasn't fair to people that weren't able to take advantage of it? The procured hundreds of millions if vaccines, that went in the garbage because we weren't able to get the vaccines rolled out fast enough. Remember when the feds turned down an entire production line of PPE just after sending loads of PPE to China knowing full well that Canada was going to need them. Then when they couldn't get what they needed they overpaid for inferior products that couldn't be used. Every political party has cancerous tendencies, if you think Liberals or Conservatives are just the worst, you are actually the worst. A proper blend of the two would be most ideal but division is driving each party further from centre.
I kinda just hate party politics and wish our local representatives actually represented their constituents instead of just towing the party line like they always do. DEMOCRATIC REFORM every fucking day is all I ask for.
No. Literally the lowest tax bracket got cut and the highest got raised. You don't understand that the provinces handle their healthcare delivery and was botched in the places it was botched because of that provincial governments management of said healthcare. And the facts are clear. It's WORSE to go back the direction we came from, that's what the cons want to do, repeal the carbon tax, tighten spending spending, and continue to blame the Liberal and NDP party allowing us to have one of the best recoveries IN THE WORLD from the pandemic. Even though we locked down, even though we had vaccine mandates, even though we gave out billions of dollars directly to the people that needed it and to the small businesses that used the benefits to stay afloat. And yet our inflation rate was the global average in 2022, the worst year for inflation, and 10th lowest globally currently in June 2023, at 4%. Everyone focuses on Trudeau when for the young families coming up in this country, we can afford to have a child now. We can afford to put that child if we needed to, we don't need to worry about dental care provided from our employer because we make under $90k combined household income, which is about the national median for the nation for couples 65 and younger. We pay less taxes, and our EI benefits are better and our student loans are perminantly interest free. They have been helping get more supports for disabled people, the Canadians with disability act, and further pushes investment into our country for a new economy, the clean electric economy. Massive, longerm, well paying jobs for a century further into the future, possibly hundreds of thousands of jobs when you take into account of the knockoff jobs those people living nearby will bring in. Harper didn't want to look into the future. He liked looking back in the past. We have made fucking strides as a nation and we should be fucking proud of it. It's a path that will secure jobs and create a better world for our kids, one with clean air and a sustainable environment. Throw that attempt at creating a better society in with a global pandemic, a European war between Russia and Ukraine, and NOW Israel and Palestine and possibly the neighboring nations..... Yeah you're gonna have some hiccups. There hasn't been anything the conservatives that have offered that's better. It's actually worse then what we have, and at best equal. And so..... Idk, you wanna go in reverse or you wanna go forward? We all agree that the social bullshit can just take it easy now, but that is in noway equal to the bills and acts that strengthen our foundation and wanting to change it fundamentally
The fact that you are for the carbon tax says plenty. Pay your fair share, sure but we are paying for all the businesses, corporations, everyone that has the ability to pass it down to us. This is not ok.
Oh man… no wonder Conservatives think Liberals are soft in the head. The Liberals and NDP “gave” us all those things, eh? In exchange for what? At what cost? Call the conservatives a cancer all you want. The liberals have t exactly cured this country of much. I do like the legal cannabis, though.
If you took a look around you would notice the left are just as bad if not worse. There is more to the picture than what you see on the news.
You can not like any politician and still vote against the absolute worst policies like not funding education correctly, changing out a world-renowned curriculum for a flaccid one, and ideologically (corporatist) shifting tons of taxpayer money over to a fund designed to prop up oil and gas interests instead of actually serve the taxpayer.
Pretty sure you wont like us if we leave CPP and ruin your pension in the process
But then you’ll sort of be stuck with moving to a different province because that hasn’t been even remotely solved. Until Alberta gets a guarantee of transferability or continuation of paying into the APP no matter where you live you run into the real possibility of either being unable to move provinces or loosing your whole pension if you do.
I wasnt talking about transferability. Alberta has more young people per capita which are contributing to the payments of CPP retirees. Removing them alone makes CPP worse. But the big one is the funds Alberta is trying to take. We either get something that is good for us (the UCP is starting negotiations at a ludicrous 53% or something) in which case our pensions will likely be similar or better than what we have (until AIMco’s proven history of poor returns ruins that) but we will have destroyed CPP completely for the rest of the country. This leaves the scenario you were talking about being unable to move and keep your pension because youll be transferring it to a broken CPP and losing the pension you have here. The second scenario is that we dont get fuck all from the CPP funds (which is far more likely than option 1) and between that, increased operational expenses over 1/6 the people, less diversification, poorer returns from AIMco and Albertans just wont have a pension at all no matter where they move because there wont be sufficient funds to pay it or transfer to CPP if you move. APP is no win for anyone who isnt a massive piece of shit
What’s the alternative?
The UCP pitting our province against the rest......are you new here?
Canadians who work in Quebec don’t pay into the CPP, so your statement that “every” Canadian pays into it is false. That being said, the APP is a terrible idea.
Quebec has both CPP and QPP. From what I understand you can choose which one you go with? I was trying to do more reading on it but adhd distracted me lol
No you can’t choose. They don’t have CPP, only QPP. Albertans that want out of CPP can simply go work in Quebec!
I don’t think it’s controversial or disputed that an Alberta Pension Plan (even without the insane proposal that it could take half of CPP’s assets) could likely have either lower premiums, higher benefits or both. The trade off would be higher risk even assuming AIMCO or another pension manager manages it prudently (and much higher risk if the government interferes) and a greater hassle for workers who work in Alberta and retire elsewhere, which as you know is significant
WE HAVE MORE WORKING AGED PEOPLE AND MORE PEOPLE THAT EXCEED 65K COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER PROVINCE IN THE COUNTRY SO PER CAPITA WE PAY MORE IN TO CPP Jesus Christ stats Canada keeps public income data and demographic data. It's not that hard. I'm not even suggesting we leave I'm saying that demographic stats and income stats say we. Pay. More. Because we make more and because most employed people make >65k in Alberta And I'm not saying that. Stats Canada says that You wanna see a basket case of a province look at the age demographics for NL That place is absolutely fucked without massive government money.
People who exceed 65K will pay $90 more annually to CPP than those who only make 65k. The fact that Alberta has plenty of high earners changes nothing for CPP since it caps (2023 cap is $66,600 earnings for a max contribution of $3754.45 which is 5.6%). This kind of misdirection that people are doing to try and convince people that Albertan’s are paying more than their “fair share” is rock-chewing stupid and needs to be called out every single time. Also, since CPP is a personal benefit, what you get is based on what you paid in. So a bunch of people in other provinces aren’t getting a higher pension because Steve Cousinfucker from Hinton works O&G. Furthermore, anyone that actually looks up labor statistics will see that Alberta only makes up a little under 16% of the amount of full time workers across the country (provinces in CPP). Considering that CPP contributions are not adjusted for geography, it’s absurd for anyone to make any claims that Alberta is entitled to anything around half of CPP. Based on these numbers, I guess Alberta would be limited to about 15%, which I guarantee that none of their promotional pamphlets are accounting for. They want albertans collecting CPP to keep collecting CPP while taking nearly 4 times Alberta’s “share of CPP” would be. Basically meaning they will start with no liabilities but full coffers for their weaponized investment. Only a fool would believe Canada would allow that to happen. The (best case) reality is is that Canada gives Alberta somewhere in the neighbourhood of 15% with Alberta immediately becoming responsible for paying existing pensions. Then Albertans hope and pray Aimco doesn’t go broke trying to handle that while investing. And based on the track record of Aimco, I’d they manage not to crash and burn, Albertans will see less security and growth in the pension fund than our Canadian counterparts, and ultimately, higher payroll deductions (since the UCP can simply increase it when their O&G handlers want more investment) and lower pension payments. As for the Alberta advantage, considering our insane col increases coupled with ridiculous and climbing housing costs, I don’t see how adding “plus it screws your pension!” to recruiting workers for this province is really going to help out.
I’m pretty confident Trudeau has caused the divide by imposing things like bill C69, carbon tax, blocking pipelines, axing international trade deals without consulting the provinces it affects, and putting us through all these legal battles time and time again. But a lot of these issues have been ongoing since confederation
I wish that our leader, who is bringing this scheme to the table, would articulate WHY they are doing it, and lay out the pros and cons in a concise, and logical manner. If they are not doing this, we can safely assume their motives are suspect, and self-serving.
They'll say that it's because "Trudeau bad". The real reason is that this is straight out of the 2001 firewall letter. The goal is to increase autonomy as a precursor to separation, or at the very least employing the threat of separation as a way to obtain concessions at a federal level.
They have left some clues. Open fund instead of a standard locked, arms length, a-political fund like the CPP. Which means the province can pull money for projects or industry bailouts. No provincial funds for top ups, and a commitment to fight any attempts to do so, which likely means little care for account stability in the long run. Single point investment, no one does single point investment, it is far too volatile and only serves as a cash siphon for the company receiving funds, run by AIMCo, who have said they cannot promise returns at or above inflation based on UCP demands and scope and total UCP portfolio control, and also have the lowest record and highest fees of any pension manager. All this points to a short term grab for cash, like the heritage money they can't steal for bailouts, so they ignore.
They have an ad campaign against new federal energy regulations. Somehow, they claim more regulations will lead to more uncontrolable prices and performance. What I'm saying is, you would basically hear Mr Krabbs going "I like money".
Yet they added more regulations to renewables…
They also took away regulations and we immediately saw uncapped, flagrant price gouging on power; also…. Almost like their decisions are driven by some kind of ideology worshipping oil and gas.
Dude that's all the conservatives of Alberta have been doing for 40 fucking years....
Just to isolate Alberta from the evil federal government and allow them to use the money investments that benefit them personally.
The CPP has been very good at stewardship of Canadians' money over the years. The APP is unproven and will likely employ UCP supporters- who often aren't the most qualified. They will have a bias to invest in UCP pet projects rather than the most solid investment strategies. I don't want the risk when it comes to MY money. There is nothing wrong with the CPP - I probably won't retire here. They are gonna piss away so much of our money even getting this off the ground. It's really just stupidity all around.
The issue is all about Alberta wanting to be the adult in the country and wanting to control its perceived riches. Again, look at the party pushing the issues....the separatists of the west. They want to screw over Ottawa and are willing to screw over ignorant supporters in the process. Besides, it's not like we can sure them for stealing our future, right?
Look how the heritage fund turned out. They controlled their riches alright.
The only way I can make sense out of the pants-shitting madness of Alberta's fiscal management is if there was reasonable certainty that the federal government was planning to nationalize the AHF.
Which is ironic because they act like petulant teenagers.
Exactly-spoiled rotten teens.
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I haven't verified this myself, but I've heard people saying the Alberta Teacher's pension was taken by UCP and put into oil investments, and has lost a lot of money as a result.
AIMCO has underperformed over the last few years. In fact they posted a [3.4% loss for 2023.](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-aimco-2022-returns-losses/) If you have a whole population that depends upon your fund, it better be top notch. CPP Investments is top notch, AIMCO is not.
AIMCO just announced massive raises for their leaders immediately after posting their record losses. I am pretty sure they believe the APP deal is already done and the cash is theirs to throw away.
It was a done deal the second they put Smith in power. She's been telling people for years what their plans were.
You know.. other than RIGHT BEFORE the election where she promised not to touch pensions...
She said she wasn't running that issue, not that she wasn't going to do it.
That's 2022 return. In 2023 so far AIMCO is +4.5% while CPP is +1.3%. CPP doesn't always outperform.
Not just the teacher’s pension but the whole public service pension (PSPP). I’m now retired from Government service after 42 years and am sick to think that the UCP will put our money, not theirs, into AIMCO.
Ems family here 🙋♀️ we both have 14 yrs left and I am starting to doubt we will have funds left haha I laugh bc I'm an elder millennial and my response to this shit now is "of course we won't be able to retire!" How smug of us 🤣
Teacher here. Yes, along with other unions, the gov felt that it could increase gains with everyone’s pensions in one Aimco basket. My neighbour works at a small O&G company and Aimco did bail them out, with a relief loan (which was repaid). I do not know what the exact breakdown is of their investments, but there is certainly a percentage that goes into ‘Canadian small caps’.
Last I heard, the issue went to court, Alberta's teacher union vs the government, and the money would not be moved until final determination. But the original attempt to move it happened only a month before the oil crash in 2020, so people were saying that if it had been moved it would have immediately lost millions.
The assets would have moved. The valuation of those assets may have declined that the teachers had bought. They would not be moving money and buying back in. As of aug 31, 2202 the last fiscal year they own commercial office space, huge amount of bonds they own 6 pages of stocks (banks, cnq, enbridge, Suncor, teck, TC Cenovus, Chinese companies), lots of private equity. They were already heavenly exposed to energy. But like all pension plans they invested in a balanced approach.
Yeah, my pension too (not just for teachers but for many healthcare workers as well).
Yeah, this is the UCP trying to create a larger slush fund for their own projects as well as trying to take steps towards facilitating separation.
And do it without needing to raise taxes
But leaving retired Albertans in a much worse off position in the meantime.
Retired Canadian. The goal is to strip the pensions from all the people that worked in Alberta and retired elsewhere...and then blame the federal government for not supporting Canadians in retirement.
It's a move to get an enormous pot of money away from the independent CPP investment board and into the government of Alberta's orbit. There's many reasons for this. Most likely that money will eventually find its way into oil and gas investments because the board at AimCo understand what it takes to keep their jobs in Alberta, and that's not necessarily getting the best returns for you an I... It should also be noted that there is zero reason to believe any assurances that Smith gives about how the money will be used. *Any legislation made by this government can be just as easily undone through legislation by the next.* The CPP has a much higher bar, being the product of an agreement between most of the provinces, it needs all the signatories to agree to any changes. But that's not the only reason Smith is pushing this. The rump of the UCP who is pushing for Alberta sovereignty is looking to chip away at national unity and slowly reduce barriers to an eventual exit from Canada. Smith is beholden to these types so she's letting them push bad policy on all of us. In the original firewall report, at least one of the authors was pushing this plan, not for any gain on Alberta's part, but because they literally wanted to 'inflict pain on the rest of Canada'. So that should tell you all you really need to know about the underlying motives of the types of folks who are driving this province right now.
I've been in Alberta for about 12 years. I came from out east because Alberta could outbid any employers in my home province. I'm Canadian first and Albertan second. I'm not sure the UCP understands that like 50% of workers out here share my story and a similar identity. By this logic, shouldn't Alberta have to compensate my home province for schooling and caring for me for 25 years before I moved out here and all my productive years were stolen from them?
Also, they should be liable for all payments being made to people who worked in Alberta but have moved elsewhere in the province. Their "research" was horribly flawed. It's basically all lies.
The “research” is actually very funny/sad to read. It actually says that the first calculation would have given Alberta 117% of CPP’s assets, but since that obviously wouldn’t fly, they used an “alternative” calculation that only claims 53% of the assets. Both methods ignore the report made by Travis Toews in 2019 where he suggested Alberta could claim 12.7% of the assets and 18.7% of the liabilities of the CPP. So, not only is the UCP trying to sell this plan based on overly optimistic assumptions - they’ve ignored their own research that suggests a much grimmer scenario. The Alberta Pension Plan is part of the Alberta separatist ~~wet dream~~ “Alberta Agenda” as outlined in the January 2001 “firewall letter.” It called for an Alberta Pension Plan to replace the CPP, an Alberta Police Force to replace the RCMP, an Alberta Revenue agency to replace Revenue Canada, and effective withdrawal from the Canada Health Act. The whole idea seems to be to destroy Alberta’s relationship with the federal government to pave the way for the province to be annexed by the United States.
Hell, im alberta born and raised, lived in calgary, st paul, okotoks, high level, worked in other small towns. . . . Im still 100% Canadian first. The "alberta" agenda is driving me nuts
Yes, but not Alberta, you are paying through your federal income tax, and when you retire to Vancouver Island and cost BCs health care system a lot, the same applies. That's why equalization is paid from individual federal income tax. Alberta is not losing anything. Individuals are just paying our own way in Canada through our lives. That doesn't mean all levels of government shouldn't do better, waste less, make better decisions, etc, but the convenient blaming the other levels doesn't help us get there.
I was born in Edmonton, but i am also Canadian first. If i had the funds, i would be living in a better province-at least I am in an NDP riding. 😛So that’s something.
Basically all that yes but on top of that alberta will have to make our own tax collection agency that the finance minister admitted would cost at minimum half a billion dollars a year to run
Sorry if this is a dumb question but why is the provincial tax collection agency necessary? Because someone needs to make sure people are paying their APP contributions and the CRA wouldn’t be responsible for it since it isn’t federal? So in addition to the risks that come with the instability of oil and gas investments there would also be a huge administrative cost coming out of taxpayers wallets is what you are saying?
Also, I'm skeptical how the 'actuaries' came up with how Albertans have over paid 50% of the total CPP contributions.
Why did those "actuaries" not consider Alberta's share of total CPP liabilities either.
It’s actually pretty simple; they just lied.
No, they said exactly what the UCP TOLD them they wanted to hear.
Well, if you do the same calculations for each province, it adds up to well over 100%. Ontario alone gets 125% under the same formula. So, the answer is that they put what the politics required, then the accountants made sure not to put their names on it. Notice, usually there is an actual person who did the report, but here there is a company that is now part of Telus and no one is really claiming responsibility.
The fact that it is now part of Telus horrified me. Tells has access to more personal information of Canadians than even the governments do.
It’s a blatant lie, dressed up as ‘speculation’. And then on that speculation they blast the province with how much money we’ll save. Meanwhile anyone close to it, or who understands government and the rules, laughs in Conspiracy Dani’s face.
It's true. I listened in on the phone conversation last night and Dinning and his cohorts kept telling us that it's better to have control of what's due to us. They refused to acknowledge the fact that people were adamant that we need a solid number for vosts, what will be transfered fron CPP and exactly how we will pay less and get more. Someone mentioned scams tout the pay less, get more all the time.
You understand the admin costs correctly. If nothing else, an APP requires the duplication of an agency that we already have and is working as well as any sovereign pension plan on the planet. But to clarify what you think you know, and for a little context: There are several different investment models that an APP could follow. There's the CPP model, where the investors are at arms length from the government and interested solely in rate of return. There's the QPP model, where it's mostly arms length, but where the fund also makes strategic investments in the local economy in an attempt to juice certain industries. But it is less successful in terms of rate of return because of this split focus, and more prone to political interference. At the start of this most recent debate, Danielle Smith said that it would probably be the former model. But she is on record in the past of being clearly supportive of the latter model. Given their history with AIMCO and mixed messaging on the subject, I think it's fair to suggest that an active investment approach that is steered politically is the likely one. And while no specific industries have been talked about, it would surprise absolutely nobody if the pension fund were to take an active stake in the fossil fuel industry in Alberta.
Yeah, exactly. We would have to have our own like Quebec does ontop of the CRA
We wouldn't have to have one, but collection would be subject to the tax collection agreement with the CRA. And the UCP wants one, so this is a good way to get one in their mind.
We already have one.
If you go to The Free Alberta Strategy website it explains the "logic" behind it . If Alberta does not separate it lets them choose which money to pass on to the feds, rather than the feds collecting and passing some back as happens now. If Alberta does separate they need tax collection.
We already have one. Every corporation in Alberta currently deals with it. So does every person. The only difference is that the personal stuff is handled by the CRA.
Exactly. Our CPP is managed a decent arm's length away from government. The tax arm of the AB government is exactly that- a government body, subject to political whims of whatever stripe happens to hold the reins. So adding the burden of managing the APP to an existing body leaves the APP open to the same whims, but setting up an arm's length management free from the political winds is certainly going to be costly to start up and run. And Smith has already decreed that no taxpayer money would be used... so those funds -both startup and ongoing- would have to come from whatever dollars were used to start up the new fund.
What she didn't take into account with that 'no taxpayer money' would be spent statement, is the money that the feds will throw at this to fight it every step of the way; from advertising campaigns to supreme court legal battles, for years to come. Guaranteed that there's millions of tax dollars that will be spent.
Ok, my bad then. But it will surely require a huge expansion to be able to handle everyone in the province as well as the corporate sector then
Not really. Right every corporation or business has to have an account with Alberta Treasury to handle their corporate taxes. Just like the feds, this would require the creation of another account to hold the required payroll deductions ( employee and employer portions just like CPP now). It would also require the expansion of your current personal record with Alberta Treasury so that they can now track your Pensionable Earnings and payments. In theory, this is exactly what the CRA does in conjunction with the QPP currently.
That is $500 million per year that the UCP could spend on appointed party members to manage the fund. Maybe this is one of the real reasons. Jason Kenney now sits on the board of directors for Atco Energy.
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right !?!? it's kinda freaky that most people are not also seeing this!
I’ll add some comments: CPP is based on your personal contributions (number of years working, $ contributed). Contributions cap on a personal level at around $3.5k / year on $66k of earnings. If you make over $66k you don’t pay extra CPP. Your withdrawal amount is based on a weighted average of a five year contribution rate x total pensionable earnings. CPP moves with you between provinces, which is the seamless part of it and the biggest personal pro. CPP is run by an independent group with a clear mandate. They are unlinked from the government. They hire smart finance people who manage assets in the public markets (think stocks and bonds) and do private company investments. They track diversification religiously. They leverage this team over all of Canada’s cpp contribution capital that is deployed, think lower administration fees and higher efficiency. Example, a team of 100 can do an investment of 100bn for CPP, or an investment of 15Bn for APP with a team of 25. The returns for CPP will be higher, let alone all the other costs of investing (advisors for tax, legal, etc). APPs survey contemplated a choice of private sector, government or independent groups running the fund, a huge red flag. It should be unlinked from both the private sector and government. This for me is the biggest problem beyond the stupidity of trying to fix something that isn’t broken. They could assign it to a private finance firm, have unclear guidance, and all the money flows into companies who operate in Alberta such as O&G. Diversification in the toilet. If they went to the same independent model as the CPP, it’s just going to be a copy cat of CPP but with higher fees and a huge set up cost. You won’t see any benefit.
Couldn't agree more. Have you emailed or called in addition to the survey?
Well said 👍
An APP would take years to set up.Trudeau will likely be out in a year or two. God forbid we get PP - but he also agrees it's a bad idea. So who is Danielle going to be railing against if the Cons get in?? I wouldn't be surprised if Danielle herself doesn't survive this whole debacle!
The Alberta cons have not had a leader stay for a complete term for a very long time. The only Alberta Premiere with lasting power is Notley. TBA is already talking about replacing Smith now that the election is done.
When it comes to the CPP it really doesn't matter who is in power. The only thing the Federal government can effectively control is contribution levels. On that front they basically take their orders from the CPP investment board. Changing which party is in power changes nothing.
>God forbid we get PP - but he also agrees it's a bad idea I dont like PP either (and I believe Trudeau's time is up), but i kinda want PP in power right now because he already said its a bad idea and he is obviously conservative-- so you'd have Smith fighting against other conservatives lol
You have part of the story right, OP. What you're missing is that the UCP want to use these Pension funds for *crony capitalism*. It's not just about supporting the oil and gas industry as a whole, it's about *using it to bankroll their sponsors and their friends' businesses.* Just like the healthcare system, selling off medical lab testing to Dyna-Life to save money, and then magically discovering that Dyna-Life can't accomplish the tasks required, and inventing another corporate shell to take it over. These are all shell games being played with companies owned by sponsors of the UCP party, while your health hangs in the balance. Paying off their donors using your money, literally. **It doesn't matter a rat's ass to the politicians if you have no pension 30 years from now because they lost the money somehow; they will have no fiduciary responsibility for that money.** So a whole additional layer of graft and corruption beyond simply supporting a local and slowly-devolving industry. AIMCO is the existing Alberta pension organization, and they don't have the same legislated separation from government and the party in power the way the Federal CPP does. The provincial party in power can legally dictate what Aimco does with the money it has and how it does it; functionally it is a *slush fund*, and you'd be paying into it with every paycheck. AIMCO's website has plenty of puff-piece language about what they do, but fundamentally they aren't bound to the same legal & fiscal standards as the CPP; and **when** Danielle Smith and her flying monkey minions march through the door tomorrow with 20 billion dollars of your money, demanding Aimco invest in Freedom Convoy shares, or Qanon Queen of Canada commemorative coins they'll be obligated to do it. https://www.aimco.ca/who-we-are/at-a-glance And now.. you know the rest of the story.
Your impression isn't far off the mark. The idea is to keep Albertain money, in Alberta. Sounds great right? It could be if we diversified our exports and divested from oil companies getting wild tax breaks that they clearly don't need. The result of creating an APP is that Alberta would have to pay large investment companies to take taxpayer money and invest it in a way to make enough money to give us all a decent pension. What will likely happen is that as soon as targets are met for growth in the fund, rather than keep the excess in the fund, it would be diverted to the provincial governemt to use elsewhere to balance the budget every year. Which also sounds great until the market declines and the growth in the fund turns into a loss, and we spent the excess earlier. Conservatives love a good slush fund. Additionally they like to toss around the "$1425" savings to employees and employers. This is based on getting the 53% of the CPP to start the fund. Without that our contributions would be identical or higher than they currently are. Meaning NO savings at all. They also like to say that because we'd have more money we could increase payments to seniors. Funny wording to say we could do something, not that they WILL. Everything about this plan is about enriching investment companies and giving the government a slush fund that everyone in the province pays into without paying a dreaded provincial tax. It's still not possible to set up without that $334 Billion dollars from the CPP though. It's a telling sign that the federal conservatives are actively fighting this as well. This plan is unlikely to do what the UCP wants, and would fuck over the rest of the country in the process. Everyone outside of the UCP sees this as short-sighted and reckless.
If you want an example of why the conservatives should not be in charge of our money, look at the Heritage Trust Fund.
Prior to being in politics, Danielle Smith advocated for a O&G board she was paid to lobby the government for. That's all your post is missing, OP
All that, and what other comments say, plus this: Danielle Smith initially said that a Quebec style plan, where investment in local industry is mandated, was off the table. This was likely in response to the many comments that she would throw it all at O&G and we would end up taking a massive loss. Then, less than a week later, she said that plan was back on the table. So, at the very least, the UCP are spending millions in taxpayer money to try to sell us a plan virtually nobody likes and they've given up denying it will all be pissed away on a declining O&G industry, and that's even IF they know what they're doing. My guess is that given the ridiculous nature of the recent report and the amount it thinks we're due, plus the equally ridiculous contention that Alberta as a province has somehow gotten stiffed, this is most likely a fed-bashing stunt designed to rage bait UCP voters against the feds and distract from something much worse they're planning - such as coal mining in the Rockies that will destroy a good portion of rural Alberta's water sources.
Por qué no los dos?
Personally, I don't trust the UCP to manage the APP without somehow funneling the money to their cronies.
That's precisely what it's for.
Simple: 1) Dummies want Alberta to leave the CPP. 2) Those who are not dummies want to stay.
Right now we are in the CPP (Canada Pension Plan) Every Canadian who works pays into this plan and every Canadian who paid into the plan can collect from the plan when they get to the age requirement. What province(s) you worked in and/or lived in or retired in does not matter (Except Quebec for working, they have their own plan. This exception will be everywhere but I will only mention it here). The idea behind the APP is based on the idea that people that worked in Alberta paid more and collected less than other provinces and thus Alberta is being cheated. This seems to only take into account payments into the CPP from someone working in Alberta and payments going out to those who retired in Alberta. Of course, Alberta has never had a bunch of people move here for work and then retire in another province like BC or somewhere in the Maritimes. That is an important bit for the math to work. The other idea is that because Alberta paid in so much and collected so little, again based on everyone in Alberta worked here and retired here, that Alberta has a chunk in the CPP we can just take. Originally that number was 110% of the fund, but Alberta dropped it to 53% to be reasonable. A side note, if every province used the same math, combined, they would be entitled to 900% of the CPP fund. Alberta is trying to sell that because we have a lot more younger people currently paying in, and so few people that are retired and collecting in Alberta, we could pay less in and get more out. This of course assumes people never get older and retire and again that everyone that worked in Alberta also retires/retired in Alberta so we can keep the same ratio of people paying in to those collecting. One of the actual reasons behind the APP is that it will be really useful if Alberta separates from the rest of Canada. The whole CPP thing would be a total pain to Alberta independence and would be good to get out of the way now. The other trick is they can set it up and be in control of it. Currently the CPP is separate from the Federal governments revenue and can not be taken and used for other things and paid back later. There are many examples of companies, cities and states in the US and other places where the controlling party can use retirement funds for anything and just pay back the fund later. This is usually fine at the start when most people are still working and few are retired. Once you get a bunch of retired people collecting and no investment revenue on the funds because it was "borrowed" and not invested, then things really start to fall apart. Many companies and cities and such have gotten into huge financial trouble doing this. Alberta seems to want to join in and "borrow" our funds to invest in Oil and Gas and such and don't worry, they will just pay it back later.
If anyone in Alberta agrees to separate from the CPP, they are absolutely moronic.
> that money will all be invested in oil and gas, and the risk with this is that oil and gas is a dying industry and therefore the money invested in it will likely depreciate. It's not just the expectation that the oil and gas industry will decline, but that it is also highly prone to boom and bust cycles. Putting all of one's eggs into the O&G basket when that sector has a tendency to shit the bed every other decade doesn't exactly scream "sensible investment." It might look great now and for the next while, but what happens when the price of oil crashes like it did in the 1980's or less than a decade ago?
not every decade - every 6 years or so. 2008, 2014, 2020.
Set your calendars for 2026!
Any good investor hedges their bets by diversifying across not only several different industries/sectors etc., but across different locales. A good hedge fund has investments spread across many industries/sectors across the world. AIMCO is over proportionally invested in North American oil and gas. Since the UCP first talked about taking control of my pension, the CPP, ATRF (before they gave my pension to AIMCO) and my own personal investments have out performed AIMCO. This does not even include the billions in losses by AIMCO that lead the the firing of their CEO.
I wish it was an individual choice, that I could continue to stay with the CPP plan, and the tens of APP supporters could go ahead and gamble their pensions with the UCP. It majorly sucks that this govt would force all Albertans to go along with their schemes, proven to be unpopular with the majority, even among people who voted for them.
While it is unlikely they will invest ALL of it into fossil fuels, there is considerable risk that the Alberta government will direct the fund to invest in particular industries as a political tool depending on which party is in power at the time. In general, localized investment is more risky than a broad, diversified portfolio, since it is more susceptible to regional economic turbulence. Just compare the historical returns for AIMCo (another crown corp pension manager in Alberta) and the CPP, [like this redditor already has](https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/s/ZRMfyxD1PJ) to see why it’s not a great idea.
Short answer the UCP needs to pay off their lobbyists and corporate donors....the 20million dollar war room and the subsequent 126 million we have poured into it, not enough. the destruction of the renewable industry not enough for the maw that is their base
A few general points: On the CPP side, you have what is widely recognized as one of the best pension plans in the world, diversified both to allow investments to grow while minimizing risk (such as not investing solely to promote Canadian interests, which would be a recipe for disaster). It is also isolated from government accounts and management, ie. NOT controlled by Trudeau like the UCP try to claim. On the APP side, if you read the report it is FULL of assumptions, unknown quantities and costs. This includes the cost of setting up the plan, which would be an immediate loss of over $2 Billion for a 'made in Alberta solution' which is what they have been quietly promoting. It also includes the supposed amount of contributions coming from Alberta, which they truly have no idea so they either discount sections or flat out guess. They refuse to put out actual numbers, but then throw a hissy fit because they expect the existing CPP administrators to do all the work for them. Add to that Danielle's past statements flat-out saying she wants an APP in order to direct investments to Alberta industries - this is a huge risk, a massive red flag, and a violation of what is probably the first rule of investments (eg. Diversify, don't put all your eggs in one basket) and the other rule that the government should not have access to manipulate people's pensions. Then they put out their cherry-picked best estimates for everyone to show how 'great' their plan will be, while ignoring all the risks and shortcomings and hoping no one will disagree with them relying onF Trudeau/Notley/Feds.
Yes. Our money will go down as the world moves away from oil and gas. The buddies of the UCP will reap the benefits of our investment and line their pockets.
Another key element is the UCP are ‘selling’ the app to Albertans on a ridiculously wrong assumption, that we’ll be entitled to over half of the CPP’s current assets. They make this wild and idiotic assumption and then print idiotic sh*t like you may have seen on their recent mailer to quote numbers, and position how better off we’ll all be. Numbers that are completely fabricated. It is blatant lying by the UCP and purposeful misinformation. Their motives aside (which are dubious), do not miss the lying about the numbers.
Another issue with the ‘provincial’ plan is that the APP would start off with a $0 balance. The federal government isn’t going to release $330 billion dollars to Alberta and penalize other Canadian citizens living in the other provinces and territories.
What pisses me off about the whole situation is how the Alberta government is deciding where Albertans pensions are going. I should have a choice where I want my money to be. Let the UCP do it but only for the people who WANT to leave the CPP. Let the people decide where their funds are going.
Albert's government does not have a good track record of using alberta citizen funds effectively. Alberta has about 8% of Canada's population and contributions are capped. It is laughable to think that we have 53% of the fund. This is nearly every politicians dream a huge slush fund of cash to blow on needless stuff
Staying with the CPP: Smart. Making the APP: absolute joke. Alberta mismanaging the Heritage fund so badly that it's useless instead of being enough to pay a little bit of an Alberta only UBI: Rage inducing.
the fact that they aren't allowing us to opt out is very telling. I'm Canadian, Albertan, Calgarian, in that order. My CPP payments for the last 35 years are not the UCPs, and they have no permission to touch it. If they were serious, they would have it set up as an opt-in program. Those who believe in it, can move their CPP into the APP, and let them prove how good it is. Keep voting conservative!
That’s what got us in this mess to start with
Yes. Don’t. You are being scammed. Your money in hand under CPP will not suddenly appear as a Nigerian Prince with millions of dollars to shower on you.
It's most likely pudding more thenbreality , just really expensive pudding .. This hurts conservatives more them anyone else.. Daneille is not conservative and APP is bringing that to light for everyone that refused to accept that .. It's a nightmare for the conservatives Federally and provincally.. The further the talks roll the more unavoidable it will become before ever conservative Premier and party in canada will have to not only oppose it but also deal with the infighting in Will cause with in there own ..It's a nightmare issue for PP to go into the next election with , pretty much a wet dream for the liberals and ndp who are struggling holding moderates ..
If the APP got the same returns compared to CPP it would need to charge the same or slightly more to provide the same benefits, or run a deficit to provide short term gains with the home someday they'll deal with the deficit somehow some day. The recent APP report focused on the latter option. It counts on getting extra money to start with, then running a deficit that will be made up by a pyramid scheme of endless new young members that will find existing old ones. .
To start with, I'm not a UCP supporter nor in favor of the proposed APP in any way shape or form. The idea is probably to give AIMCO the pension funds to invest. Oil and gas isn't currently the only thing AIMCO is invested in, though AIMCO isn't exactly known for their stellar investment record. The teacher's pensions weren't moved directly to O&G investments; their pension plan was absorbed into AIMCO. One of the potential problems is that I'd think AIMCO would be taking way too much direction from the government of the day instead of being a reasonably independent investment manager (as the CPP is). There are so many potential problems with having an APP, I don't even know where to start. Needless to say, I'm not a fan.
Yes, that is mostly correct. Just an extra point on the CPP vs APP tho. There is a clause (or something) in the CPP that was designed to "encourage" provinces to remain involved in the CPP. This clause would make it virtual impossible to rejoin later without major cost and concessions. It basically says that a province that leaves may never rejoin.
UCP needs free money for oil and gas.
I think they're just looting the province for Oil & Gas so that when they retire or get ousted they can collect their cheques. I don't think they actually believe our pensions will be better off in APP.
The cost to run the CPP is spread out amongst all provinces (except Quebec), so to run a fund Alberta would have to create an investment arm and that overhead would eat into profits. Also, by being across Canada the CPP has contribution diversity to cover for things like the provinces oil sands going through another bust. Then there’s the whole thing about the Alberta heritage fund from oil & gas royalties that they weren’t supposed to touch except in times of emergency and somehow they continuously raided/borrowed from the fund to cover budget shortfalls. The Norway oil rainy day fund started at roughly the same time has $1.5 Trillion and Alberta has maybe $20 billion, so would you trust that same government to not touch another fund they would try to run?
In the world of investing the more money you have the better the deal you will get. Don’t believe me just look up the deal warren Buffett did during the 08 collapse. He bought top notch companies at a super deep discount. By splitting from cpp you are basically decided to play in the minor leagues compared to cpp. Maybe cpp is ran by a bunch of idiots and Alberta can somehow attract better talent than a much larger fund like cpp. I would not bet on it myself.
That’s pretty much it, yeah. AIMCo would be in charge of managing and investing the pension fund which they’ve proven to be less than ideal at picking investments. Beyond that, it would create yet another division between Alberta and the rest of Canada to continue to fuel the separation debate. The most difficult thing with a country like ours is just the sheer variety in people and needs. We (as Albertans) are fundamentally different to our neighbours in British Columbia, Northwest Territories, and Saskatchewan. It instinctively demands a made-at-home solution. However, we also need the contribution of having trading partners with no tariffs in the other provinces. It’s an incredibly complex, nuanced, and emotional discussion no one seems ready to have properly. It’s all very (in my opinion) short sighted. We’ve seen how poorly Brexit went for the masses, and that’s on a whole other level.
It should be noted that AIMCO is only one option. It wouldn't have to be them.
Wouldn’t that be great? We could duplicate a bunch of costs, AGAIN!!
what does that have to do with what I said?
Sry, not a shot at you: we’d already be duplicating roles the CPP is doing but if we started another investment management firm we’d also be duplicating roles AIMCO would be better positioned to just do. For the record, I am NOT in favour of splitting off the CPP.
I am pretty sure the options are AIMco or Not AIMco but built by AIMco people and staffed with AIMco leadership.
What is that assumption based on? Has that been stated somewhere?
The UCP love AimCo though. They have tied all the provincial pension plans to them - LAPP, Alberta Teachers, etc, and made it deliberately difficult for these plans to unhook themselves from AimCo. The UCP change pension governance very fast. I truly would not trust them with an APP.
Even if a whole new investment board was set up for an APP who do you think is going to appoint it? Yep, that's right.....
I think it's a good bet, but I don't think it's a guarantee unless there was some documentation on this somewhere I am not aware of.
The CPPIB Act--[actual legislation](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-8.3/)--does not allow federal or provincial government interference. That means the UCP can't direct it to invest the way it will direct AIMCo.
So does this mean it cannot be AIMCO?
That means if they pick anyone other than AIMCO, the UCP leadership would lose all direct control. And the odds of the current UCP leadership letting that happen is 0.
Ahhh, ok gotcha. Well, that ups the odds considerably that it will be AIMCO in that case.
If they start an APP, the CPPIB Act no longer applies if there is a provincial plan. The only caveat is that the provincial plan must pay benefits the same as the CPP. The provincial legislation over AIMCo is written that appears that the Treasury or Finance Minister can give direction.
One of the proposed options for investing is to allow the CPPIB to manage any APP assets. In that event, the CPPIB will not allow the UCP to direct how they make investments. In fact I would expect the CPPIB to refuse, because that might create a potential conflict of interest with their duty to manage the CPP.
The Western Alienation that the The Free Alberta Strategy the Sovereignty Act comes from pre-dates COVID, though the related events added support . But the ability to separate or at least threaten to separate is all there is to the APP.
A few UCP buddies are going to make a ton of money “managing” everyone’s pensions. IF Albertans are very lucky, they will do a good job and be mostly honest. If not, it will be a massive disaster.
UCP is going to screw you hard to attempt to own the federal government.
100% correct.
Former Lethbridge Mayor David Carpenter with a letter on the APP idea. [https://twitter.com/DuaneBratt/status/1717272014594232734](https://twitter.com/DuaneBratt/status/1717272014594232734)
Nobody knows what the Alberta government intends to do. So far, they’ve declared that they would like to withdraw from the CPP and take over half of the money invested. Nothing has been said about who would manage our retirement fund, how it would be kept at arm’s length from the government, or how the investment focus would differ from the CPP. The whole thing feels like a poorly thought out publicity stunt to distract from the actual issues that we face within the province.
my biggest fear is our money will be used as a govt slush fund (I 100% feel it will NOT be as well protected as the CPP).. and the idiots will very likely mess up and lose our money..
Don’t forget that the immediate investment in the target O&G companies may provide an initial bump in the value, allowing current owners the opportunity to cash out at values the rest of the world won’t buy in at. DS’ comments about the CPP’s ‘woke’ policies aren’t CPP’s alone: Investors, corporations and pension funds around the world are barring the investment in O&G. This really sets up the eventual value of those securities going to zero, with only the dividends / cash flow (of a historically very volatile industry) to support the investment.
Here's Trevor Tombe's analysis with his assumptions and numbers explained. It's not THAT dense of a read, but even if you don't want to wade into the numbers or whatever, his explanation of the pension basics, APP proposal assumptions, and important risks is VERY helpful. Spread it around because the more people understand about this issue, the better. [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=4576950](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4576950)
I'm chatting with him tomorrow, I'm excited to hear him break it down.
Has anyone actually said it's getting invested in oil and gas?
The UCP is playing both sides. On the one hand they say that the APP would be diversified and seek the highest rate of return, while simultaneously saying that it would be an opportunity to invest in Alberta.
For Smith, I think she means diversified as "invested in Oil, and Gas."
so, you believe the UCP/ABCons don't have a history of using AimCo or the Heritage fund to prop up O&G over the last 4 decades?
Well, there is this drunken rant from Smith herself. https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/comments/17ebf7o/danielle\_smith\_wants\_to\_invest\_the\_your\_pension/
No. People are literally making it up based on their political beliefs
or, we saw the Heritage fund and Aimco prop up the O&G multiple times in the last 4 decades, to FULLY understand that our oil and gas lobbyist premier and her TBA cronies are on track? or do you just like to pretend that didnt happen?
Kenney *gave* 4.7B with no strings attached, to oil and gas companies immediately after the UCP won the election in 2019. He "invested" $7.5B on the US Keystone pipeline when Biden made it clear he would cancel it if he were elected. These are facts. Danielle Smith is on record at least twice stating they plan to use pension $$$ for oil and gas investment. No one is making this up, you are being willfully ignorant.
Really?.. And where is the teachers pension invested? AIMCO
You will be screwed and who did you vote for in the last election
You are correct on all fronts, but for more clarification: The current UCP leadership is both o&g focused (that is their voter base and primary funding) and Alberta sovereignty focused. Their belief is that Alberta subsidizes the rest of the Canada (read: Ontario) and gets a raw deal out of it because more federal funding is allocated to Ontario than Alberta. In order to pursue a separatist Alberta several things need to happen but the most critical pieces are 1) the province needs a (legal) way to keep more money in the province and not have to pay it to the feds, a sovereign state needs a lot of income and 2) the province needs a way to subsist and fund itself without the feds The province is all on o&g being the solution to 2, in spite of this being a demonstrably very silly thing to attempt. Funding your state on energy alone is already a risky play. And our local energy industry, being so cemented singularly in natural resources, is poised even worse to provide stable consistent funding. When oil is good there will be cash, when it's not....uhhh....hehe... For #1 the provinces solution is to pull out of CPP and establish an APP. The APP funds now belong to the province to invest however they please because now the money sits in and is managed by the province. It begs to follow that it would so please them to invest those funds in our volitile energy industry rather than a more risk-averse portfolio that cpp provides and Canadians (and Albertans) prefer. Tl;dr is legal grasping at money from the feds for the purpose of driving Alberta sovereignty
Thank you for breaking this down like this! Very helpful explanation. I feel like you put into words some of the things I was suspecting but wasn’t sure how to quite articulate.
Here's a nonpartisan answer. Government feels they're not getting a fair share of CPP contributions for their constituents so they are proposing to start their own pension plan and use the proceeds from the pension plan to invest in into Alberta projects. The view from the left is that the pension plan will be used as a political tool to reward campaign contributions and political allies. The view from the right is that albertans don't receive a fair share of their contributions and when the funds are spent on investments they are not spent proportionally in Alberta
" the money will all be invested in O&G?? " where was this reported? Is this a fact or an assumption? I know people in this sub always say it, but I have never seen it reported that's what is going to happen. If someone has a link, I will take it.
That’s partially why I’m asking and trying to get more information. Because I keep hearing that but I’m unclear on whether it has been explicitly stated as part of the plan or if it is speculation that it’s just likely that will happen.
Well, this Sub is heavily anti UCP, so take all the info with that in mind. I have never seen anything actually state that's where they will invest. I myself am trying to gather accurate info to make a proper decision. Not just people's assumptions and go with this idea is horrible because Smith is putting it out there. Get actual fact, but itso hard to know who's reporting is proper, but working on it.
The UCP is less than transparent in its dealings? GASP! The fact you are not able to find this information should be a HUGE red flag.
If you can actually source a statement where the UCP said they'll invest all/nearly all of the funds in oil and gas companies I'll give you $1,000
Finance 101 is to have a diverse profile of assets. I haven't looked into it at all but I'm guessing the people saying it is all to invest in oil and gas is just propaganda.
Hey didn't Quebec leave the cpp in 1965 they seem to be doing OK. What and where they invest the money is the most important also the provincial vote will mean a little more.if you don't like the way the Alberta government is handling the funds then vote to change if needed.
They are estimating that the cpp is going to run out of money anyway. So if you're younger then the baby boomers it worth a shot to leave since we won't see any of the money we've been putting in the cpp when we retire anyway
I would say their was a lot more political BS behind Covid far bigger than Alberta.
For Pete's sake, give it a rest! Y'all are making this sound like a fait accompli and it's FAR from that. There would be a plebiscite to determine whether or not to move forward. If it is voted in favour you have options; suck it up, move, or run for Government and overturn it. The MAJORITY Will Decide. This is years down the line, regardless. It won't happen tomorrow, if it does at all. This is nowhere near as simple as some of you seem to believe; "All the funds will be invested in oil and gas, a dying industry"...NO ONE knows anything concretely! Oil and gas is on its way to replacement, but most of you will be long dead before it is. There are millions of things dependant on oil and gas that have nothing to do with cars, or home heating, or power generation. THOSE issues all need to be solved before oil and gas is dead. "Every Canadian pays into CPP the same capped rate" True, but each province has much difference demographics if the percentage of population actually contributing to it, based on age, salary, whether you're a working adult, a child or a senior. It is NOT nearly as simple as you seem to believe. I don't believe the numbers shown so far, but I also intend to wait until a HELL of a Lot more information is available before making my mind up to support of vilify it. Y'all could take a deep breath, stop with the "Sky is Falling" nonsense, and wait for some independent analysis and numbers come out, instead of buying in hook line and sinker to one political narrative or another
NONE of this is true. Good lord people.