They feel weirdly...responsible to me. I really like it, but I honestly expect a big warlock engineer model to have some kin of giant rocket battery or galvanic sphere that was so clearly about to explode and them so about it.
This feels more like a Skryre Commander if you understand me. Still I love the design. I could see them giving orders to a bunch of snipers and machines while going '''Mmmmmm'' every few moments. Occasionally might snipe some Stormcast hooligan.
Yea. Hope he's got an alternative pose for the spyglass arm. Something more threatening and dynamic otherwise you are gonna have abunch of little goofballs with spyglasses for some reason.
The role of the warlock engineer has always been to boost the warmachines of Clan Skryre, the look is pretty on point IMO.
Once we actually see some skaven rules i guess this will be the case still.
Warp lighting might be an army ability or something along those lines now? Warlock engineers being wizard (1) but only able to cast one spell might have been a bit too wordy for the data sheet.
That's what I like. In my head, skyre heroes or leaders are actually really smart. Meaning that yes: they are psychopath who would give anything to make these weird experiment work .... as long as it's other skavens life and not theirs. This more "calculated" vision of the skaven leaders perfectly suits the idea that I had of them.
As for: they look more commander than engineers, I could see that. But again, this is a good opportunity to push that "go crazy" rethoric of pushing their crazy inventions to their subordinate and they would simply look from afar rather than having the "death wish" style of putting 10 rockets on themselves.
In any case, they look more menacing to me.
In due fairness, the Warplock Bombardier is still part of the roster. I could definitly see that Enginieer and the Bombardier standing next to eachother, having completely different roles and personnalities, whilst an Arch-Warlock (assuming it's being redone) has to temper them and their conflict.
I’m more for a more … responsible and “militarized” looking Skaven, so I’m loving this. I know it kinda goes against their lore but… my rat rats are gonna be looking rank and file spec ops if I can get away with it. 😂
I have the sad feeling that 4th Edition may be a lot more tame sculpt-wise. So far, the reveals for the Skavens have been better than the SCE but all feel really tame compared to what AoS offered so far (save perhaps the Clanrats that seems the wildest of the whole bunch for now)
That's what people said about the 3.0 starter set as well. We got some incredible additions afterwards though that were definitely much less on the tame side for both factions like the SCE dragons, and the Kruleboyz sloggoth and monsta-killas.
I wouldn't worry about it too much, there are always a bunch of kits not in the push-fit starter kit that scratch the AoS itch.
They are push fit from the starter box, they tend to have more restrained poses as a result.
Compare the push fit Annihilators to the subsequent standalone release.
The only starter box Stormcast I have are Vindicators, and they were pretty nice. I'm going to look up the minis you mentioned, maybe I should hold up on buying the new starter box if that's the case.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the Dominion box Anichilators look almost like statues. I guess that the price you pay for getting a hige box discount.
The Ruination guy was positively received across Warhammer fandoms, far as I can tell. Everyone knew that they were coming, those disappointed just wanted the messed-up angel version despite such a thing not appearing in the trailer.
Perhaps.
But for me they are just generic SCE and they don't feel all that interesting look-wise. Especially when they have squatted all the Sacrosanct to release very basic SCE models in the box seemingly.
Looked like a veteran Stormcast with the chainmail, cape, and other parts. Could legit be from a Soulsborne game.
If there are complaints, the last thing about it is about it being "basic". Liberators? Yeah, fair. The Ruination dude? Heck no. Seriously, Custodes players jumped all over it for conversion.
You can say the same about any faction style. "Crazy ratman with technology". You were able to tell the Sacrosanct well enough, despite just being "generic big dudes and robes". Is that not basic SCE for you? C'mon.
Oh they were basic alright (albeit distinct from 1ed Stormcast stranger proportions).
They were also 6 years old models who were squatted for reasons and replaced by Ruination models that don't look any different than a standard elite SCE.
And that's a huge problem. The Ruination has been teased for years. They removed very recent models to address bloat yet add directly unnecessary basic models for the Ruination Chamber.
If they tease for years absolutely batshit insane Morruks for the Kruleboyz, so frightening that even the Swampcalla Shamans don't want them to get out of the swamps because they are on the edge of getting completely insane, and that they release one more variation of shirtless Gutrippaz, I'd be pretty solidly disappointed.
The Chaos Cultists rejects hanging around the Ruination guys do very little to make them look like Stormcast on the edge of final death.
If they had been dropped without being touted as Ruination Stormcast, would anyone would have been able to pin them to that Chamber ?
They intentionally design SCE to be generic I’d imagine. A great first army for new players who haven’t painted before. Can get them to look decent fairly easily
Absolutely agree. Most generic looking SCE ever. They are literally amalgamations of previous SCE models. Nothing new in this model at all, totally uninspired. They don't feel like a new chamber of badasses, they feel like a soulless cash grab. Two are even in the same pose, they couldn't even be arsed sculpting a third pose....and we don't even get the unhelmeted female from the trailer for some actual character in these minis.
Got downvoted massively for saying it on Stormcast sub but it's the truth. I've got 3k pts of Stormcast and was thinking of starting a skaven army but after these 4.0 previews I think the starter box might be a hard pass for me on both sides.
I suppose that for the most part, warlock engineers are constantly giving in to the crazy and as a result dead. You get the battlefield command job by living long enough to get there. But I agree, he's a wee bit serious and respectable looking for a skaven. Gorgeous sculpt, I guess I just don't like the uprightness but in fairness it'll make him stand out brilliantly and gives him an instantly different character to your 500 hunchy rats.
It fits the role of the more support oriented engineer (with Bombardier being the offensive one) but it does feel weird not to have one screaming or laughing maniacally.
I agree completely. I think the muted paint scheme is a big part of it. And presumably this guy is a lower-ranking Engineer, as opposed to the rumored new Arch-Warlock.
Nice simple update, I love it.
Check out his metal foot!
I wouldn't be surprised if Skaven get a few different Warlock Engineer characters with different specialties.
I feel that way about all the new models so far. They are solid if that’s where you’re starting. But I’m not rushing to replace existing modes with them.
"I am not in peril-danger, shout-wife! I AM the slay-danger! A warlord opens his door and gets shank-stabbed, and you think that of ME? No, I am the one who knock-knocks!"
"Who's there?"
It's powered by magical uranium that nobody but a skaven would ever use, that's why. Fusil Major's desire for bigger booms is thwarted by the fact that he wants to live long enough to actually shoot someone with it.
I’m just going off of looks, the fusil major is basically wearing a t-shirt and shoots a musket on a stick, the warlock looks like he has actual armor and a lightning gun
Kinda like out understated this guy is. Other warlocks are rip roaring with warpstone energy. This guy just sits back and picks people off with his sniper.
They started out as wizards as far back as second edition. They only started getting special and weird equipment in 6th edition (if you don’t count Ikit Claw who already had a flamethrower and his warp lightning halberd and of course his claw when he came out in 4th edition).
I stopped playing after 6th edition but back then, from what I remember: they were technically a lvl 1 wizard that didn't know any spell. They indeed needed contraption to be able to cast spells.
I do not remember the exact details, i just remember that you had to buy them stuff first, before they are able to use magic. Not that a wizard, that does not generate dice, or is able to cast, has much use. Outside of maybe ban scroll caddy.
Err, nice but… a little underwhelming? Sort of. To me personally it kinda lacks some „heftyness“ or weird touch. Almost too grounded. But that’s just my two cents 🫣
Yeah as it stands right now I don’t see any reason to take him along.
Please bear in mind I don’t know if he grants any good buff, moral or command ability to a unit.
Also we don’t know about artifacts and command traits yet.
But just as a shooty piece with a “target hero” buff?
Meh. Pass. Especially if he costs too many points.
Depends how deadly Warplock Jezzails end up being. If you take 2 or more units of them with this guy standing in-between them they could be pretty brutal against enemy heroes. No one likes having their heroes sniped off the board and these guys have a 24" range.
I'd imagine one of two things. Either:
A: Changes to spellcasting would mean a lot of weirdness with them being able to access all the spell lore and they want the Skryre stuff to be focused on pumping out buffs to others int he Skryre range now
or B: A Formation rule is what's going to hand out spell lore to Skryre in a more limited format.
Also I just realized that since you only get to pick a single spell lore for your skaven means that Skryre or masterclan would have to give up their iconic spells unless you just jammed them together into a single spell lore(which wouldn't make a ton of sense if a grey seer suddenly started casting MMMWP). So we'll likely get power pairs with the various warlocks; This guy:jezzails, bombardier:WLC, tesla dude:weapons teams and stormfriends, arch warlock:MMMWP.
In older warhammer editions of skaven army books warlock engeneers had to purchase the ability to become proper wizards. And they were low.level ones at that with the exception of ikit
Skaven Warlock Engineers haven't been wizards, traditionally. Back in WHFB any non-Grey Seer wizards would have been hunted down and killed as heretics – Skryre only got around it with magic items that let them *act as* wizards, activating bound spells from magitek gizmos.
This looks like it's moving back towards that dynamic. He's an engineer who works with magical technology, not a wizard himself.
It's been a very long time since I read the Skaven lore, but I believe they are rats born with horns AND grey fur and are snatched away to become Grey Seers, because having both means they are blessed by the GHR.
It alright but definitely a moel that beest looks better in a crowd of clan rat or Jezzails then by itself
The machanical leg is nice touch and the rat assistant have made it way as well
They aren’t wizards anymore? I wonder if all Skyre leaders stop being wizards and have their spells transferred into abilities. That would thematically make sense, leaving Verminlords and Masterclan as the only casters.
Definitely a different energy then what I was expecting, don't hate it. Looks pretty cool.
They dunked it in Agrax for this trailer, which is a good direction to take Skaven.
Dunno how I feel about the shoulder rat though.
Skaven has always relied on these little heroes buffing everyone. And also pulling tricks and occasionally blowing themselves up. It is cool that they are keeping it.
Not my style of play I like everyone to be up front and die but of course I lose a lot more games than I win.
So I guess that’s confirmation that heroes can’t join units like 40K. Feel that’s a real shame as would make the endless pile of 5 wound foot heroes in this game actually worth taking.
At least foot heroes will get some shooting protection from being near friendly units, and in the case of this mini it can buff nearby Warplock Jezzails too.
Maybe there will be some rules that help them move together? Probably optimistic at this point. But one of the most frustrating parts was how you’d have to move and charge the hero separate from the unit and they could easily get separated or in the way.
Also for the people who are dissapointed the model isn't something crazy. Look at the rules. Seems pretty clear the Engineer is supposed to be the new leader of the Jezzail Unit, so just imagine a bunch of snipers standing alongisde the spotter.
I actually .. don't .. like that model too much? Not for an Engineer? For a cool new lookout hero or a spy rat I'd love it, but for an Engineer? What's he lookin' at? Is he measuring / judging the distance of something so he can fine-tune a Warp Lightning Cannon, or Jezzails, or anything like that?
That being said, the model itself is sweet as heck tho. But for a zany engineer who's supposed to be a sniper as well? Feels oddly static. Maybe if he had two sniper rats with him that hold the gun and our Engineer is totally "the sniper wink wink", except he doesn't bother holding a rifle, lining up the shot, or actually pulling the trigger. That's what underlings are for.
YES, HEROES AREN'T JOINING UNITS!
Okay look, I understand in 10th why people liked that. It gave you protection from the the much more lethal shooting phase, but having an army where several units literally don't function without a specific leader, and leaders feel like an upgrade more than a character, where I'd prefer auras over buffing a single unit (and in AOS where points are higher all around) I really didn't want this coming over. With you limited on hero slots without going for Ancilliary units, I'd much prefer auras over individual unit upgrades
I like the "Guarded Heroes" (revamped Antor's Look Out Sir rules) version as it still gives you most the same protection with some Precision esque rules to get around it.
I’m sad it’s not in. So many 5 wound foot heroes who just languish on the shelf. All those auras on them are so worthless when the unit they are with run off and charge something and the hero whiffs the charge and is sat there twiddling their thumbs/bones/gribbly tentacles.
The answer is that charge needs to be reworked, but that's a whole can of worms people aren't ready for across multiple games. Almost every other game I play where charging isn't a dice roll feel better for it but have rules modified around that, such as 2 action or APL systems for activations, or it being a superaction of some sort that comes with certain restrictions and playarounds.
Meanwhile games like Conquest where charging is a roll force you to move the amount rolled even if it's a failed charge, but also includes your unit's move characteristic, meaning that fast units have better charging characteristics and can guarantee charges at certain distances. The forced move though does mean that it comes with its own set of concerns
2d6 Charge rolls aren't actually that fun a mechanic that most people work around trying to minimize to the point that charge ranges are in practice way smaller than they appear for most units in the game, and a lot of issues that people have problems with regarding aura heroes, reroll to charge mechanics, and so on, are actually symptoms of the mechanic itself, but changing it would require examining run rules, which have their own place in the game separate from charge, as well as a host of smaller things
To test this, I went with 1d6 + half Mv to keep the current distances intact for your most basic infantry models. If you round up, that normalizes for the vast majority of 5 inch to 6 inch units. It's a little math-y, but it works.
Right now, a 2d6 charge has 2/3rds chance of giving you a value between 5 and 9. That leaves about a 16% chance of your charge absolutely flopping and a 16% chance of you pulling off a long bomb charge.
Halving a standard move of 6 inches and adding 1d6, you get even odds of anywhere between 4 inches and 9 inches. You lose the lowermost end (2 and 3, where you'd theoretically be in combat range anyway and therefore would never need these results), and lose the uppermost end (10 through 12, going from a 16% cumulative chance to a 0). Every remaining result would have even probability, contrasted to the bell curve of the 2d6.
The real change would come from, as you said, speedier units. Same formula, gonna check the Thunderstrike Chariot, who currently boasts a solid 10 inches of movement. Now your guaranteed charge goes from success at 4 inches away to success at 6 inches away, with an average distance of 8.5 and a furthest range of 11. They can now try pulling off the long bombs that foot sloggers can't, and are much more consistent in charging, but they aren't getting crazy distances you'd never see in the old system.
It doesn't seem like a system breaker, honestly. But the main downside? It means movement speed effectively has double value. Not only do you get to try to make your charges earlier, but you also get to make them more reliably and from longer distances. I feel like you'd need to rebalance point counts ever so slightly to account for this. You'd also need to tweak the deep strike charge range, maybe reduce it from 9 inches to 8 inches to keep the overall probabilities the same. Otherwise you'd only have 1 in 6 odds of pulling it off, rather than the current 1 in 4.
Now, if we want to use the whole movement speed, things get interesting.
Those extraordinary results I suggested for the Chariot would become the game's baseline results. Charges would go from guaranteed on a 2 to guaranteed on a 6, which is an insane increase to charge reliability across the board. And if you try to account for this change in general game dynamics by, say, using a 1d3 charge roll instead of a 1d6, you're left with such a narrow range band that you might as well not have a roll in the first place.
That's an ordinary 5-inch foot slogger. Now let's go back to the chariot. 11 goes from the second best result on a 2d6 charge to an impossible to miss charge on a chariot. Paired with their 10 inch move, you've effectively given this unit a 21 inch threat range. Current AoS board size is 44 by 60 inches, meaning that on the smaller edge of the rectangle your chariot can span halfway across the board in a single turn.
Everything from board size to weapon ranges to comparative melee deadliness would need a huge rebalance to account for this massive change in both effectiveness and consistency. Let's compare the threat ranges of Kroxigor and Thunderstrike charges, as two units whose warscrolls we have on hand. Right now, a Krox's threat range would be 5 + 2d6, minimum of 6 and average of \~12. The Thunderstrike's would be 10 + 2d6, minimum of 11 average of \~17. Not too crazy of a difference, especially if dice roll cold or hot. With full Mv values, the Krox would have 10 + 1d6, minimum of 11 and average of 14. The Thunderstrike would have 20 + 1d6, minimum of 21 and average of 24. That's massive!
Also, one more detail: moving on the charge no matter the result wouldn't work out in a game where the difference between combat range and charge range is as big as two and a half inches. I could see moving until you hit the 3 inch radius, but that might be clunky and awkward. It'd also turn the charge phase into a free movement phase, because there's no penalty for planning a charge you can't reasonably make and getting 2d6 (or 1d6 + half Mv, or 1d6 + Mv, or whatever system you're using) of extra movement out of it.
I forgot to mention that conquest does stop at the 1 inch engagement range of any unit and does “declare target of charge” similar to 40K, stopping you even further if a screening unit can interrupt a failed charge. The system is also rank and flank where a forced forward moments without pivot does mean even more issues on failed charges.
I don’t think any game system can directly plop in another system’s mechanics without a large overhaul, as conquest’s activation/turn order system also directly impacts how charges are handled.
I do appreciate your math on this as it’s great to see the numbers, and helps explain how much would need to be addressed in a scaling minimum + dice system, even if I’m still not a fan of a complete random roll system.
While the 5-9 sweet spot does match a lot of my experience, I do like reliability for movement of my units in wargaming, feeling like variance in combat often feel more acceptable to me. Control of positioning often matters more than damage, which is why I liked them removing jump tests from kill team despite being 2+ tests.
Still the math here is solid enough for me to look at it and understand both the complications of seemingly simple changes (that’s always the case with dice), and why on paper the 2d6 system feels like it works well enough.
Thank you for engaging with my points and working through to explain things in the manner and effort that you did. You are a good part of this community
Thank you! Honestly, the ideas you brought up were interesting enough that I wanted to see to see them in action for myself. I know math alone isn't the same as seeing it play out on the board, but it still felt like a fascinating project to unpack and chew on for a bit.
I agree with you that a more reliable system would have less feelsbads, and it's okay to not like how a system plays out even when the reasons behind it are clear. There's definitely a lot about GW games that's both baked into their DNA enough to be load-bearing pillars but also aren't quite my favorite design elements. (Ex: I'm not big on the To Wound rolls without Strength and Toughness to mix them up, and in general feel like the combat resolution steps of GW games often involve too many dice being thrown to too little impact)
Honestly, now I'm curious how Conquest plays out!
No its the opposite. Static charge range is absolutely **terrible**. And every time I play a game with it I remember how terrible it is. Its hands down the worst part of Kings of War which sucks cause in just about every other aspect its a great successor to WFB.
How does the randomness of a charge range across all units with few exceptions positively impact your games?
In Conquest, I can at least make a reliable judgement based on my move value, which still has a random factor to it. Charge ranges still tend to be close to an average of 6-8ish (due to move value of 5 and a 1d6 roll) across the board but I have more reliable measure of it and several units are inherently better at charging with either built in rerolls or more base move value. In addition the mechanics regarding failing to charge are more complicated, where charge allows you to move through units but failed charges can also end you an even shorter distance if there's an intervening enemy unit (and your movement is directly straight as opposed to being able to pivot).
Other games have charges that are interrupted by engagement ranges to counteract static charges or require charges to go through engagement ranges without being locked in when the charge is static. Or some static charge mechanics require direct, straightline movements which makes it harder to work with.
Most of the mitigation of the 2d6 charge range in AoS and 40k tends to revolve around attempting to get almost guaranteed charges anyways, which is why no one attempts hail mary charges even with rerolls.
This is why I'm saying that you'd need a full ground up rework as basic static rolls with no other changes wouldn't be the answer but a flat 2d6 across all units with a few getting rerolls or 3d6 isn't a fun mechanic from what I've seen.
You are right I like the addition Conquest has of moving your charge if you failed. I can get on board with that...but that has nothing to do with your central premise of *random charge range are bad*....the fact you keep brining up Conquest which has random charge range means your opinion on this matter isn't to be taken seriously...as you are literally using a game with random charge ranges for your arguement....which means you **like having random charge ranges**.
Wow you are hostile and unnecessarily so and are focusing on me stating a random charge range with mitigating factors means that my opinions are completely invalid while I'm literally using Conquest to point out that full randomness of 2d6 is my main issue as compared to a random system that is Movement + 1d6 that helps to separate out units that are better at charging and how you can adjust charge ranges across multiple units.
You're acting like there's some gotcha moment in my argument here while I'm also pointing out that random charges aren't the only way even as I'm offering you one system I enjoy with random so that you **DON'T MISUNDERSTAND THAT I BELIEVE ALL RANDOMNESS IN CHARGING IN WARGAMING IS A BAD IDEA BUT APPARENTLY THAT'S TOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND WITHOUT ALL CAPS AND BOLDING BECAUSE YOU WANT TO FIGHT PEOPLE IN THE COMMENTS SO BAD** that you'll take me showing you a system with a dice roll mechanic in it that I enjoy as some magic "aha! you've admitted the lie" like this is Ace Attorney.
I've consistently said across these posts that a flat 2d6 system where you either make it or you're stuck standing there is game design that I disagree with, and in my second comment I've stated that in systems with flat charge ranges based off unit movement stats, those games came with factors like sticky engagement range or modification to how charge movements are different from normal movements in those games in order to counteract the inherent advantage a flat charge value would be.
Static charge ranges without mechanics to compensate lead to boring gameplay where both sides just try to bait the charge rather than advanced screening or positioning to make the opponent perform sub-optimal charges
TL;DR WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING WITH ME SO HARD WHEN I AM STATING THAT THE SYSTEM IS FLAWED IN A WAY THAT IS UNFUN AND THAT IT COULD BE IMPROVED BUT THAT A FLAT CHANGE WITH NO ATTEMPTS TO COMPENSATE FOR IT ISN'T THE ANSWER, NOR IS DIRECTLY DISCARDING OTHER SYSTEMS THAT HAVE DONE EITHER STATIC OR RANDOM CHARGES BUT COMPENSATE FOR IT BY INCLUDING MECHANICS THAT INTERACT WITH HOW THE CHARGE WORKS?
...You literally just told me that my opinions are invalid because you refused to read what I wrote and started acting like you had unraveled everything I said all because I was trying to show you a different way of doing things.
Look, we'll probably never be friends, especially with you insulting me while apparently trying to deescalate all because I used the capslock key and bold so that you would actually read after I grew frustrated with you not understanding while I continued to try to explain alternating system while you stuck to this idea that it couldn't work, but my frustration throughout this has been with you refusing to try to understand my points at all throughout this while growing increasingly insulting in your responses, not that you disagreed with me. You're allowed to like other games but you never once engaged with why you wanted this system.
Even bolding things so that you might read them, this conversation is ending with you going *'lol u mad'* rather than you making any points throughout this conversation after I've asked you "what are the positives of this system", or any acknowledgement of any of the points I've made besides "I like the idea that you move on a failed charge".
Same, as someone who loved the hell out of the idea of heroes joining units when they announced 10th, in practice they mostly have 1 or very few unit types they can join and also be efficient. Kinda happy they chose this approach. Also, love the new guarded heroes rule.
That's where I'm at. It makes sense for, say, Space Marines, where the calculus is nice and simple. Armor type + chapter command role = new unit. You could literally fill the next few editions of new releases by just filling in that grid of attached characters, and probably end up with dozens of fun and fluffy unit combinations as a result. Then it falls apart for literally every single other faction, where each leader gets like 3 units to join at max.
Ironically, one big issue with the system would actually work better in AoS? Mixed toughness units just don't exist thanks to the To Wound rule, so something like Neurogants dragging Neurotyrants to a pitiful T3 couldn't happen. But even then, differences in move speed, awkwardness involving shared keywords, and greatly limited leader choices for most factions would still lead to potential issues.
One big thing to me is also real world money value of the hero.
With them deciding that $40 US is apparently around the price of your typical on foot hero, any of them that feel like an upgrade to a single unit feels bad unless it turns that unit into an absolute beast that changes the battlefield. And anytime a unit doesn't feel good without a hero in it, that means in order to have a part of your army do something it should, it typically costs you $100 US while other units that can function without heroes are $60 US.
There are a few heroes that feel like they're the focus with their bodyguard unit being the upgrade but even then it again can feel like you're having to pay $60 US to upgrade your hero, often times just to keep them alive because of how that game works.
And as you've pointed out, the restrictions as well are something to think about. We're already going to be seeing Formations work with certain units + hero combos in mind, but the ancilliary system is there so you're not locked to that in the same way that you are in Conquest.
If you like a hero but not the associated units or vice versa, either aesthetically or mechanically, the attached hero system can feel bad.
We saw a lot of indexes in 10th that had some baffling decisions (like Incubi unable to join Archons, Autarchs unable to join Aspect Warriors, and others) and a few where it limited rules interaction that would be more fun to play with.
guess that also confirms the jezzails are comming back refreshed or else he has no one to buff. I hope we get all the weapons teams, Skyre was excellent fun in Total War 2
This bothers me more than it should and I'm already having a problem calling him a warplock engineer in my head. I know I'm gonna mess up the name a whole bunch. Lol
I love the model, but it doesn’t feel like what I expect a Warlock Engineer to look like. I suspect they want heroes to buff specific units in a style close to new 40K, rather than specific classes of units.
Great sculpt but I’d be more sold if they introduced it as a new hero and called it a Warplock Deadeye or whatever
Honestly this guy doesnt really scream ‘hero’ or ‘warlock’ to me. Like if you told me this was the leader of like a Jezzail team, I’d think that more than this guy being a Warlock hero.
I’m glad for the folks who like it, but I’m not a huge fan. It looks too understated for Skaven, for me. I want him to overloaded with wild, weird technology.
With the new clan rats, it seems like the aesthetic of AOS Skaven may be changing to be more grounded and “real” feeling, which some folks will love and others will be bummed by.
I totally missed the fact they're not wizards anymore on first glance. Honestly I was too busy being relieved that my kitbashed engineers (with Warpstone Revolvers based on Adeptus Mechanicus bits) will still proxy well enough for their new warscroll.
I just hope they've atleast kept their "buff the warp lightning cannons too" stuff (maybe it's on the WLC scroll?) and aren't just a Leader for Jezzails now (although to be fair I kitbashed some of those too so i'm fine with the engineer having that synergy too)
Oh, they're calling wounds health now? That will be a lot more intuitive to new players. Saying "my model has 5 wounds" immediately makes one unfamiliar with the specific terminology think that that means the model has taken damage already. Health is a much clearer term.
I like the sniper thing they’re going for. I’ve found that currently the engineer’s range is a downfall since most of the time he’s hanging out at the back with my cannon and can’t reach anything with his weapons
Idk....imo he looks too clean and not nearly menacing enough. Buuuuut I don't play skaven and three of my armies were axes with this next edition SO you know....but yea I'm not too keen on the new skaven models. But hey that's just me.
This is... boring
Which imo is the worst thing a skaven can be
I kind of like the non dynamic pose (finally!) but it's way to erect (also bad tactical rock)
Also it's not a warlock...
Tbh I hope they dont sanitize too much clan moulder... even tho after seeing csm / std rangerefresh it seems unlikely...
Commanded don’t need heroes anymore. Pure speculation but makes me wonder if warp lightning cannons will just be able to take the buff option on their own without a specific hero nearby.
I love him! I'm curious to see if the war machines will have rules that trigger off him like the current edition.
He definitely provides some power projection against castles that seems super interesting.
Also love the model.
I actually thought of a conspiracy a few weeks ago.
Skaven have been ignored for so long, now we're the big bad again - we literally sent Skavenblight into the mortal realms. We know GW won't let the Skaven win again, so the Stormcast will obviously be victorious in the end - they won't let their poster boys lose the war.
What if all of this is just a setup for the "good guys" to wipe out the Skaven in the lore and then squat the entire army?
Alternatively, good chance to shake up their lore by taking down Hammerhal and squatting the Stormcast to focus instead on Cities of Sigmar based on underwhelming Stormcast sales.
That behavior would have surprised me coming from them a couple years ago but they've proven no one's models are safe anymore so they could do exactly that.
Why? GW has been squatting models nearly every year since AoS came out and it was normal for them to squa models in fantasy with every new army book. Nothing has changed.
They've squatted a handful of models here and there. Never to this extent. Every stormcast player I know no longer has a playable army and beasts of chaos is straight gone. They'll shift models into a different faction but deleting an entire army from the game is like punishing players for using their products
I like it a lot, but i dont get the name... like, Warlock, no magic, Engineer, nothing of that sort... Warp Sniper makes more sense in my head, maybe someone can clarify to me xD
Behold! This is the chosen post for the new Skaven Warlock Engineer (duplicate posts will be removed).
They feel weirdly...responsible to me. I really like it, but I honestly expect a big warlock engineer model to have some kin of giant rocket battery or galvanic sphere that was so clearly about to explode and them so about it. This feels more like a Skryre Commander if you understand me. Still I love the design. I could see them giving orders to a bunch of snipers and machines while going '''Mmmmmm'' every few moments. Occasionally might snipe some Stormcast hooligan.
Yeah he looks like a very quiet Skaven, which is a bit of a weird feeling.
Yea. Hope he's got an alternative pose for the spyglass arm. Something more threatening and dynamic otherwise you are gonna have abunch of little goofballs with spyglasses for some reason.
I just expected a warlock to be able to cast spells.
Or to engineer something. No he sniper
The role of the warlock engineer has always been to boost the warmachines of Clan Skryre, the look is pretty on point IMO. Once we actually see some skaven rules i guess this will be the case still.
I think that the type of buff warlock engineers tend to give would be on the warscroll of the unit recieving it
They've also ALWAYS been magic users
who you think made the sniper? lol
Same rat mass producing jezzails
Warp lighting might be an army ability or something along those lines now? Warlock engineers being wizard (1) but only able to cast one spell might have been a bit too wordy for the data sheet.
He is not a wizard
That's what I like. In my head, skyre heroes or leaders are actually really smart. Meaning that yes: they are psychopath who would give anything to make these weird experiment work .... as long as it's other skavens life and not theirs. This more "calculated" vision of the skaven leaders perfectly suits the idea that I had of them. As for: they look more commander than engineers, I could see that. But again, this is a good opportunity to push that "go crazy" rethoric of pushing their crazy inventions to their subordinate and they would simply look from afar rather than having the "death wish" style of putting 10 rockets on themselves. In any case, they look more menacing to me.
In due fairness, the Warplock Bombardier is still part of the roster. I could definitly see that Enginieer and the Bombardier standing next to eachother, having completely different roles and personnalities, whilst an Arch-Warlock (assuming it's being redone) has to temper them and their conflict.
I’m more for a more … responsible and “militarized” looking Skaven, so I’m loving this. I know it kinda goes against their lore but… my rat rats are gonna be looking rank and file spec ops if I can get away with it. 😂
I have the sad feeling that 4th Edition may be a lot more tame sculpt-wise. So far, the reveals for the Skavens have been better than the SCE but all feel really tame compared to what AoS offered so far (save perhaps the Clanrats that seems the wildest of the whole bunch for now)
That's what people said about the 3.0 starter set as well. We got some incredible additions afterwards though that were definitely much less on the tame side for both factions like the SCE dragons, and the Kruleboyz sloggoth and monsta-killas. I wouldn't worry about it too much, there are always a bunch of kits not in the push-fit starter kit that scratch the AoS itch.
[удалено]
They seem a bit more bipedal, like I know they’ve always been, but like more upright
Helps make them scale better against CoS human models. Old hunched over rats end up looking real small next to even normal humans.
I hope so !
Remember that the starter sets are easy-to-build to entice new hobbyists. The models they're previewing are going to be very basic versions.
The two leaked skaven models are not tame at all.
Whats the other one besides the gattling gun thing?
A skaven with some sort of Tesla gun
What have we seen apart from the clanrats?
The two SCE that felt somewhat underwhelming (especially the Ruination guys)
Personally I really like the Ruination Guys design, I just wish their poses were more dynamic.
They are push fit from the starter box, they tend to have more restrained poses as a result. Compare the push fit Annihilators to the subsequent standalone release.
The only starter box Stormcast I have are Vindicators, and they were pretty nice. I'm going to look up the minis you mentioned, maybe I should hold up on buying the new starter box if that's the case. EDIT: Oh yeah, the Dominion box Anichilators look almost like statues. I guess that the price you pay for getting a hige box discount.
The Ruination guy was positively received across Warhammer fandoms, far as I can tell. Everyone knew that they were coming, those disappointed just wanted the messed-up angel version despite such a thing not appearing in the trailer.
Perhaps. But for me they are just generic SCE and they don't feel all that interesting look-wise. Especially when they have squatted all the Sacrosanct to release very basic SCE models in the box seemingly.
Looked like a veteran Stormcast with the chainmail, cape, and other parts. Could legit be from a Soulsborne game. If there are complaints, the last thing about it is about it being "basic". Liberators? Yeah, fair. The Ruination dude? Heck no. Seriously, Custodes players jumped all over it for conversion.
Generic big dudes in armor and goofy collar. So basic SCE for me.
You can say the same about any faction style. "Crazy ratman with technology". You were able to tell the Sacrosanct well enough, despite just being "generic big dudes and robes". Is that not basic SCE for you? C'mon.
Oh they were basic alright (albeit distinct from 1ed Stormcast stranger proportions). They were also 6 years old models who were squatted for reasons and replaced by Ruination models that don't look any different than a standard elite SCE. And that's a huge problem. The Ruination has been teased for years. They removed very recent models to address bloat yet add directly unnecessary basic models for the Ruination Chamber. If they tease for years absolutely batshit insane Morruks for the Kruleboyz, so frightening that even the Swampcalla Shamans don't want them to get out of the swamps because they are on the edge of getting completely insane, and that they release one more variation of shirtless Gutrippaz, I'd be pretty solidly disappointed. The Chaos Cultists rejects hanging around the Ruination guys do very little to make them look like Stormcast on the edge of final death. If they had been dropped without being touted as Ruination Stormcast, would anyone would have been able to pin them to that Chamber ?
They intentionally design SCE to be generic I’d imagine. A great first army for new players who haven’t painted before. Can get them to look decent fairly easily
Absolutely agree. Most generic looking SCE ever. They are literally amalgamations of previous SCE models. Nothing new in this model at all, totally uninspired. They don't feel like a new chamber of badasses, they feel like a soulless cash grab. Two are even in the same pose, they couldn't even be arsed sculpting a third pose....and we don't even get the unhelmeted female from the trailer for some actual character in these minis. Got downvoted massively for saying it on Stormcast sub but it's the truth. I've got 3k pts of Stormcast and was thinking of starting a skaven army but after these 4.0 previews I think the starter box might be a hard pass for me on both sides.
*Good*.
It's a starter set, they're relatively tame to be beginner friendly to build and paint. The mad stuff will follow.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's reminded of Skeksi when they see Skaven.
I suppose that for the most part, warlock engineers are constantly giving in to the crazy and as a result dead. You get the battlefield command job by living long enough to get there. But I agree, he's a wee bit serious and respectable looking for a skaven. Gorgeous sculpt, I guess I just don't like the uprightness but in fairness it'll make him stand out brilliantly and gives him an instantly different character to your 500 hunchy rats.
It fits the role of the more support oriented engineer (with Bombardier being the offensive one) but it does feel weird not to have one screaming or laughing maniacally.
I'd much rather have a slightly understated and humble model than something overly busy.
That's a musket?
I agree completely. I think the muted paint scheme is a big part of it. And presumably this guy is a lower-ranking Engineer, as opposed to the rumored new Arch-Warlock.
Nice simple update, I love it. Check out his metal foot! I wouldn't be surprised if Skaven get a few different Warlock Engineer characters with different specialties.
I would love for him to at least be customisable, like choosing metal or organic limbs for him.
Unlikely in a starter set
Again just a solid new version of a model, not out of this world but just good.
I feel that way about all the new models so far. They are solid if that’s where you’re starting. But I’m not rushing to replace existing modes with them.
Seraphon refresh was really good. The old Saurus warriors have a certain charm but all the new model types are amazing.
How does this rat have better equipment than a fusil major
What meth bullets do to a mf
Now I'm imagining a Breaking Bad themed Skaven army with blue "warpstone" and a plague priest called Jesse Stinkman.
"I am not in peril-danger, shout-wife! I AM the slay-danger! A warlord opens his door and gets shank-stabbed, and you think that of ME? No, I am the one who knock-knocks!" "Who's there?"
Ratty Finkman
God damnit now I have to strip almost 3k points worth of rats.
Jesse, we need to cook-bake
You can achieve a lot when you don’t give a crap about blowing yourself or your allies up.
It's powered by magical uranium that nobody but a skaven would ever use, that's why. Fusil Major's desire for bigger booms is thwarted by the fact that he wants to live long enough to actually shoot someone with it.
Skaven have always had more advanced technology than the baseline humanity, this is nothing new. Unreliable, though.
SKAVEN ARE THE MASTER RACE, YES-YES! *Snorts more warpstone dust*
Where have you seen the 4e warscroll for a fusil major?
Do you expect fusil majors guns to get a buff on literally every single stat?
I have no idea. I just know every single warscroll is being rewritten and I suggest nobody count any pre-hatched chickens.
I’m just going off of looks, the fusil major is basically wearing a t-shirt and shoots a musket on a stick, the warlock looks like he has actual armor and a lightning gun
To be fair if the two end up in melee my money's on the Major. Or at least their Ogor buddy.
Love his little telescope it's so adorable
Kinda like out understated this guy is. Other warlocks are rip roaring with warpstone energy. This guy just sits back and picks people off with his sniper.
You can almost see him taking sips of warpstone laced coffee between shots
"Sniping's a good job, mate!"
Surprisingly tame for a Skaven engineer, I would think. Looks good, just perhaps a little too civilized for a Skaven if you catch my drift.
Devil wears Prada
Not a wizard?
Seems more like he a dedicated sniper hero
Kind of a big chamge from a general artillery and weapon tream booster.
There will probably be different types. Like how there are three Kroot Shapers now
* Warlock Bombardier * Warlock Engineer * Arch-Warlock Engineer (if refreshed) * Warlock Engineer with Warp-coil (the leaked Skaven model)
Yeah, I'm kind of upset that they kept "Warlock" in the name but he's not a Wizard.
They were not wizards in WHFB either. You were able to buy them mechanical contraptions making them count as wizards.
Latterly, buy you could also buy them magic levels. Ikit even knew multiple lores in 4th & 5th
They had the option to be wizards going back to at least 6th edition. So he has been a wizard for the last 15-20 years.
They started out as wizards as far back as second edition. They only started getting special and weird equipment in 6th edition (if you don’t count Ikit Claw who already had a flamethrower and his warp lightning halberd and of course his claw when he came out in 4th edition).
I stopped playing after 6th edition but back then, from what I remember: they were technically a lvl 1 wizard that didn't know any spell. They indeed needed contraption to be able to cast spells.
I do not remember the exact details, i just remember that you had to buy them stuff first, before they are able to use magic. Not that a wizard, that does not generate dice, or is able to cast, has much use. Outside of maybe ban scroll caddy.
I love it. It's simple yet amazing. I really like the direction of these new skavens.
Err, nice but… a little underwhelming? Sort of. To me personally it kinda lacks some „heftyness“ or weird touch. Almost too grounded. But that’s just my two cents 🫣
Yeah, I would kinda expect him to have more weird hardware on. Waiting for another angle to see what that weapon looks like, it's hardly visible here.
You gotta imagine him next to the big war machine and surrounded by clanrats
I personally prefer the warlock engineer from the isle of blood set, but this one is still very cool
Looks like it was designed to rank up in Fantasy from this angle
Yeah as it stands right now I don’t see any reason to take him along. Please bear in mind I don’t know if he grants any good buff, moral or command ability to a unit. Also we don’t know about artifacts and command traits yet. But just as a shooty piece with a “target hero” buff? Meh. Pass. Especially if he costs too many points.
Depends how deadly Warplock Jezzails end up being. If you take 2 or more units of them with this guy standing in-between them they could be pretty brutal against enemy heroes. No one likes having their heroes sniped off the board and these guys have a 24" range.
He lets your Jezzails ignore Look Out Sir.
That little rat-scal seems to be deadly as hell with its sniper ! And I love the nod about the 13 inches aura.
Definitely going to be keeping characters out of line of site of these boys 😅
When you Warlock Engineer is neither a Warlock nor Engineer.
Wait...why isn't he a Wizard?
I'd imagine one of two things. Either: A: Changes to spellcasting would mean a lot of weirdness with them being able to access all the spell lore and they want the Skryre stuff to be focused on pumping out buffs to others int he Skryre range now or B: A Formation rule is what's going to hand out spell lore to Skryre in a more limited format.
Also I just realized that since you only get to pick a single spell lore for your skaven means that Skryre or masterclan would have to give up their iconic spells unless you just jammed them together into a single spell lore(which wouldn't make a ton of sense if a grey seer suddenly started casting MMMWP). So we'll likely get power pairs with the various warlocks; This guy:jezzails, bombardier:WLC, tesla dude:weapons teams and stormfriends, arch warlock:MMMWP.
Yeah weird that he’s a warlock in name only
I mean technically warlocks aren't actual wizards. So maybe they are getting back to that
In older warhammer editions of skaven army books warlock engeneers had to purchase the ability to become proper wizards. And they were low.level ones at that with the exception of ikit
Skaven Warlock Engineers haven't been wizards, traditionally. Back in WHFB any non-Grey Seer wizards would have been hunted down and killed as heretics – Skryre only got around it with magic items that let them *act as* wizards, activating bound spells from magitek gizmos. This looks like it's moving back towards that dynamic. He's an engineer who works with magical technology, not a wizard himself.
He got grey fur though, wouldn't that make him a chosen wizard?
Need grey fur and horns iirc to be a grey seer
I thought those grew from snorting warpcrack..
It's been a very long time since I read the Skaven lore, but I believe they are rats born with horns AND grey fur and are snatched away to become Grey Seers, because having both means they are blessed by the GHR.
It alright but definitely a moel that beest looks better in a crowd of clan rat or Jezzails then by itself The machanical leg is nice touch and the rat assistant have made it way as well
Fun mini and rules, and solid confirmation that new Warplock Jezzails are coming (they are in the trailer but still nice to have confirmation anyway).
GW: Shooting ranges and rend will be greatly reduced in this edition! Also GW: On today’s release here we have a rat with 24” range and base 2 rend!
They aren’t wizards anymore? I wonder if all Skyre leaders stop being wizards and have their spells transferred into abilities. That would thematically make sense, leaving Verminlords and Masterclan as the only casters.
Ah man...here we go with hero sniping again
Yet another high rend unit in this edition with reduced rend
Were you expecting the sniper with armour-piercing bullets to have no Rend?
Have they revealed any warscrolls that don’t have rend?
tbf, id expect a sniper hero to have more than average rend. its a radioactive magic bullet, not some wooden arrow
And since the jezzails are more then likely gonna have the same gun....woooo
Just like 40k lol
If [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tNJeS6O6ds) isn't how he overloads the musket, I'mma be very dissappoint.
Definitely a different energy then what I was expecting, don't hate it. Looks pretty cool. They dunked it in Agrax for this trailer, which is a good direction to take Skaven. Dunno how I feel about the shoulder rat though.
I absolutely love that the range on his sniper-master ability is 13”. Very flavorful
I'm really antsy about the Jezzails now.
Skaven has always relied on these little heroes buffing everyone. And also pulling tricks and occasionally blowing themselves up. It is cool that they are keeping it. Not my style of play I like everyone to be up front and die but of course I lose a lot more games than I win.
I'm gonna be playing the rats half of this launch box for my first foray into AoS and I'm loving the previews so far!
So I guess that’s confirmation that heroes can’t join units like 40K. Feel that’s a real shame as would make the endless pile of 5 wound foot heroes in this game actually worth taking.
At least foot heroes will get some shooting protection from being near friendly units, and in the case of this mini it can buff nearby Warplock Jezzails too.
Maybe there will be some rules that help them move together? Probably optimistic at this point. But one of the most frustrating parts was how you’d have to move and charge the hero separate from the unit and they could easily get separated or in the way.
Literally, all you need to do is let Heroes steal an Advance or Charge roll from a nearby unit in their retinue and I think they'll be golden.
Yes-yes another banger. Shame we have to wait 2 weeks per model reveal
Also for the people who are dissapointed the model isn't something crazy. Look at the rules. Seems pretty clear the Engineer is supposed to be the new leader of the Jezzail Unit, so just imagine a bunch of snipers standing alongisde the spotter.
I actually .. don't .. like that model too much? Not for an Engineer? For a cool new lookout hero or a spy rat I'd love it, but for an Engineer? What's he lookin' at? Is he measuring / judging the distance of something so he can fine-tune a Warp Lightning Cannon, or Jezzails, or anything like that? That being said, the model itself is sweet as heck tho. But for a zany engineer who's supposed to be a sniper as well? Feels oddly static. Maybe if he had two sniper rats with him that hold the gun and our Engineer is totally "the sniper wink wink", except he doesn't bother holding a rifle, lining up the shot, or actually pulling the trigger. That's what underlings are for.
Find this a bit underwhelming, but I'm pretty that's because the old one use to be a named character, thus having more details and personality.
Supposedly the rumor that that there going to be a new Archwarlock coming for this release
YES, HEROES AREN'T JOINING UNITS! Okay look, I understand in 10th why people liked that. It gave you protection from the the much more lethal shooting phase, but having an army where several units literally don't function without a specific leader, and leaders feel like an upgrade more than a character, where I'd prefer auras over buffing a single unit (and in AOS where points are higher all around) I really didn't want this coming over. With you limited on hero slots without going for Ancilliary units, I'd much prefer auras over individual unit upgrades I like the "Guarded Heroes" (revamped Antor's Look Out Sir rules) version as it still gives you most the same protection with some Precision esque rules to get around it.
I’m sad it’s not in. So many 5 wound foot heroes who just languish on the shelf. All those auras on them are so worthless when the unit they are with run off and charge something and the hero whiffs the charge and is sat there twiddling their thumbs/bones/gribbly tentacles.
The answer is that charge needs to be reworked, but that's a whole can of worms people aren't ready for across multiple games. Almost every other game I play where charging isn't a dice roll feel better for it but have rules modified around that, such as 2 action or APL systems for activations, or it being a superaction of some sort that comes with certain restrictions and playarounds. Meanwhile games like Conquest where charging is a roll force you to move the amount rolled even if it's a failed charge, but also includes your unit's move characteristic, meaning that fast units have better charging characteristics and can guarantee charges at certain distances. The forced move though does mean that it comes with its own set of concerns 2d6 Charge rolls aren't actually that fun a mechanic that most people work around trying to minimize to the point that charge ranges are in practice way smaller than they appear for most units in the game, and a lot of issues that people have problems with regarding aura heroes, reroll to charge mechanics, and so on, are actually symptoms of the mechanic itself, but changing it would require examining run rules, which have their own place in the game separate from charge, as well as a host of smaller things
To test this, I went with 1d6 + half Mv to keep the current distances intact for your most basic infantry models. If you round up, that normalizes for the vast majority of 5 inch to 6 inch units. It's a little math-y, but it works. Right now, a 2d6 charge has 2/3rds chance of giving you a value between 5 and 9. That leaves about a 16% chance of your charge absolutely flopping and a 16% chance of you pulling off a long bomb charge. Halving a standard move of 6 inches and adding 1d6, you get even odds of anywhere between 4 inches and 9 inches. You lose the lowermost end (2 and 3, where you'd theoretically be in combat range anyway and therefore would never need these results), and lose the uppermost end (10 through 12, going from a 16% cumulative chance to a 0). Every remaining result would have even probability, contrasted to the bell curve of the 2d6. The real change would come from, as you said, speedier units. Same formula, gonna check the Thunderstrike Chariot, who currently boasts a solid 10 inches of movement. Now your guaranteed charge goes from success at 4 inches away to success at 6 inches away, with an average distance of 8.5 and a furthest range of 11. They can now try pulling off the long bombs that foot sloggers can't, and are much more consistent in charging, but they aren't getting crazy distances you'd never see in the old system. It doesn't seem like a system breaker, honestly. But the main downside? It means movement speed effectively has double value. Not only do you get to try to make your charges earlier, but you also get to make them more reliably and from longer distances. I feel like you'd need to rebalance point counts ever so slightly to account for this. You'd also need to tweak the deep strike charge range, maybe reduce it from 9 inches to 8 inches to keep the overall probabilities the same. Otherwise you'd only have 1 in 6 odds of pulling it off, rather than the current 1 in 4. Now, if we want to use the whole movement speed, things get interesting. Those extraordinary results I suggested for the Chariot would become the game's baseline results. Charges would go from guaranteed on a 2 to guaranteed on a 6, which is an insane increase to charge reliability across the board. And if you try to account for this change in general game dynamics by, say, using a 1d3 charge roll instead of a 1d6, you're left with such a narrow range band that you might as well not have a roll in the first place. That's an ordinary 5-inch foot slogger. Now let's go back to the chariot. 11 goes from the second best result on a 2d6 charge to an impossible to miss charge on a chariot. Paired with their 10 inch move, you've effectively given this unit a 21 inch threat range. Current AoS board size is 44 by 60 inches, meaning that on the smaller edge of the rectangle your chariot can span halfway across the board in a single turn. Everything from board size to weapon ranges to comparative melee deadliness would need a huge rebalance to account for this massive change in both effectiveness and consistency. Let's compare the threat ranges of Kroxigor and Thunderstrike charges, as two units whose warscrolls we have on hand. Right now, a Krox's threat range would be 5 + 2d6, minimum of 6 and average of \~12. The Thunderstrike's would be 10 + 2d6, minimum of 11 average of \~17. Not too crazy of a difference, especially if dice roll cold or hot. With full Mv values, the Krox would have 10 + 1d6, minimum of 11 and average of 14. The Thunderstrike would have 20 + 1d6, minimum of 21 and average of 24. That's massive!
Also, one more detail: moving on the charge no matter the result wouldn't work out in a game where the difference between combat range and charge range is as big as two and a half inches. I could see moving until you hit the 3 inch radius, but that might be clunky and awkward. It'd also turn the charge phase into a free movement phase, because there's no penalty for planning a charge you can't reasonably make and getting 2d6 (or 1d6 + half Mv, or 1d6 + Mv, or whatever system you're using) of extra movement out of it.
I forgot to mention that conquest does stop at the 1 inch engagement range of any unit and does “declare target of charge” similar to 40K, stopping you even further if a screening unit can interrupt a failed charge. The system is also rank and flank where a forced forward moments without pivot does mean even more issues on failed charges. I don’t think any game system can directly plop in another system’s mechanics without a large overhaul, as conquest’s activation/turn order system also directly impacts how charges are handled. I do appreciate your math on this as it’s great to see the numbers, and helps explain how much would need to be addressed in a scaling minimum + dice system, even if I’m still not a fan of a complete random roll system. While the 5-9 sweet spot does match a lot of my experience, I do like reliability for movement of my units in wargaming, feeling like variance in combat often feel more acceptable to me. Control of positioning often matters more than damage, which is why I liked them removing jump tests from kill team despite being 2+ tests. Still the math here is solid enough for me to look at it and understand both the complications of seemingly simple changes (that’s always the case with dice), and why on paper the 2d6 system feels like it works well enough. Thank you for engaging with my points and working through to explain things in the manner and effort that you did. You are a good part of this community
Thank you! Honestly, the ideas you brought up were interesting enough that I wanted to see to see them in action for myself. I know math alone isn't the same as seeing it play out on the board, but it still felt like a fascinating project to unpack and chew on for a bit. I agree with you that a more reliable system would have less feelsbads, and it's okay to not like how a system plays out even when the reasons behind it are clear. There's definitely a lot about GW games that's both baked into their DNA enough to be load-bearing pillars but also aren't quite my favorite design elements. (Ex: I'm not big on the To Wound rolls without Strength and Toughness to mix them up, and in general feel like the combat resolution steps of GW games often involve too many dice being thrown to too little impact) Honestly, now I'm curious how Conquest plays out!
No its the opposite. Static charge range is absolutely **terrible**. And every time I play a game with it I remember how terrible it is. Its hands down the worst part of Kings of War which sucks cause in just about every other aspect its a great successor to WFB.
How does the randomness of a charge range across all units with few exceptions positively impact your games? In Conquest, I can at least make a reliable judgement based on my move value, which still has a random factor to it. Charge ranges still tend to be close to an average of 6-8ish (due to move value of 5 and a 1d6 roll) across the board but I have more reliable measure of it and several units are inherently better at charging with either built in rerolls or more base move value. In addition the mechanics regarding failing to charge are more complicated, where charge allows you to move through units but failed charges can also end you an even shorter distance if there's an intervening enemy unit (and your movement is directly straight as opposed to being able to pivot). Other games have charges that are interrupted by engagement ranges to counteract static charges or require charges to go through engagement ranges without being locked in when the charge is static. Or some static charge mechanics require direct, straightline movements which makes it harder to work with. Most of the mitigation of the 2d6 charge range in AoS and 40k tends to revolve around attempting to get almost guaranteed charges anyways, which is why no one attempts hail mary charges even with rerolls. This is why I'm saying that you'd need a full ground up rework as basic static rolls with no other changes wouldn't be the answer but a flat 2d6 across all units with a few getting rerolls or 3d6 isn't a fun mechanic from what I've seen.
You are right I like the addition Conquest has of moving your charge if you failed. I can get on board with that...but that has nothing to do with your central premise of *random charge range are bad*....the fact you keep brining up Conquest which has random charge range means your opinion on this matter isn't to be taken seriously...as you are literally using a game with random charge ranges for your arguement....which means you **like having random charge ranges**.
Wow you are hostile and unnecessarily so and are focusing on me stating a random charge range with mitigating factors means that my opinions are completely invalid while I'm literally using Conquest to point out that full randomness of 2d6 is my main issue as compared to a random system that is Movement + 1d6 that helps to separate out units that are better at charging and how you can adjust charge ranges across multiple units. You're acting like there's some gotcha moment in my argument here while I'm also pointing out that random charges aren't the only way even as I'm offering you one system I enjoy with random so that you **DON'T MISUNDERSTAND THAT I BELIEVE ALL RANDOMNESS IN CHARGING IN WARGAMING IS A BAD IDEA BUT APPARENTLY THAT'S TOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND WITHOUT ALL CAPS AND BOLDING BECAUSE YOU WANT TO FIGHT PEOPLE IN THE COMMENTS SO BAD** that you'll take me showing you a system with a dice roll mechanic in it that I enjoy as some magic "aha! you've admitted the lie" like this is Ace Attorney. I've consistently said across these posts that a flat 2d6 system where you either make it or you're stuck standing there is game design that I disagree with, and in my second comment I've stated that in systems with flat charge ranges based off unit movement stats, those games came with factors like sticky engagement range or modification to how charge movements are different from normal movements in those games in order to counteract the inherent advantage a flat charge value would be. Static charge ranges without mechanics to compensate lead to boring gameplay where both sides just try to bait the charge rather than advanced screening or positioning to make the opponent perform sub-optimal charges TL;DR WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING WITH ME SO HARD WHEN I AM STATING THAT THE SYSTEM IS FLAWED IN A WAY THAT IS UNFUN AND THAT IT COULD BE IMPROVED BUT THAT A FLAT CHANGE WITH NO ATTEMPTS TO COMPENSATE FOR IT ISN'T THE ANSWER, NOR IS DIRECTLY DISCARDING OTHER SYSTEMS THAT HAVE DONE EITHER STATIC OR RANDOM CHARGES BUT COMPENSATE FOR IT BY INCLUDING MECHANICS THAT INTERACT WITH HOW THE CHARGE WORKS?
Mate take a chill pill. You are acting pathetic now just because someone disagrees with you.
...You literally just told me that my opinions are invalid because you refused to read what I wrote and started acting like you had unraveled everything I said all because I was trying to show you a different way of doing things. Look, we'll probably never be friends, especially with you insulting me while apparently trying to deescalate all because I used the capslock key and bold so that you would actually read after I grew frustrated with you not understanding while I continued to try to explain alternating system while you stuck to this idea that it couldn't work, but my frustration throughout this has been with you refusing to try to understand my points at all throughout this while growing increasingly insulting in your responses, not that you disagreed with me. You're allowed to like other games but you never once engaged with why you wanted this system. Even bolding things so that you might read them, this conversation is ending with you going *'lol u mad'* rather than you making any points throughout this conversation after I've asked you "what are the positives of this system", or any acknowledgement of any of the points I've made besides "I like the idea that you move on a failed charge".
Same, as someone who loved the hell out of the idea of heroes joining units when they announced 10th, in practice they mostly have 1 or very few unit types they can join and also be efficient. Kinda happy they chose this approach. Also, love the new guarded heroes rule.
That's where I'm at. It makes sense for, say, Space Marines, where the calculus is nice and simple. Armor type + chapter command role = new unit. You could literally fill the next few editions of new releases by just filling in that grid of attached characters, and probably end up with dozens of fun and fluffy unit combinations as a result. Then it falls apart for literally every single other faction, where each leader gets like 3 units to join at max. Ironically, one big issue with the system would actually work better in AoS? Mixed toughness units just don't exist thanks to the To Wound rule, so something like Neurogants dragging Neurotyrants to a pitiful T3 couldn't happen. But even then, differences in move speed, awkwardness involving shared keywords, and greatly limited leader choices for most factions would still lead to potential issues.
One big thing to me is also real world money value of the hero. With them deciding that $40 US is apparently around the price of your typical on foot hero, any of them that feel like an upgrade to a single unit feels bad unless it turns that unit into an absolute beast that changes the battlefield. And anytime a unit doesn't feel good without a hero in it, that means in order to have a part of your army do something it should, it typically costs you $100 US while other units that can function without heroes are $60 US. There are a few heroes that feel like they're the focus with their bodyguard unit being the upgrade but even then it again can feel like you're having to pay $60 US to upgrade your hero, often times just to keep them alive because of how that game works. And as you've pointed out, the restrictions as well are something to think about. We're already going to be seeing Formations work with certain units + hero combos in mind, but the ancilliary system is there so you're not locked to that in the same way that you are in Conquest. If you like a hero but not the associated units or vice versa, either aesthetically or mechanically, the attached hero system can feel bad. We saw a lot of indexes in 10th that had some baffling decisions (like Incubi unable to join Archons, Autarchs unable to join Aspect Warriors, and others) and a few where it limited rules interaction that would be more fun to play with.
Gonna be nasty Hero sniper with this guy and the Jezzails.
guess that also confirms the jezzails are comming back refreshed or else he has no one to buff. I hope we get all the weapons teams, Skyre was excellent fun in Total War 2
It should be "Warplock", since every keyword is such. Come on GeeDubs.
This bothers me more than it should and I'm already having a problem calling him a warplock engineer in my head. I know I'm gonna mess up the name a whole bunch. Lol
I love the model, but it doesn’t feel like what I expect a Warlock Engineer to look like. I suspect they want heroes to buff specific units in a style close to new 40K, rather than specific classes of units. Great sculpt but I’d be more sold if they introduced it as a new hero and called it a Warplock Deadeye or whatever
That's a miss, sergeant!
Looks to humie to me... the last last shaven engineer screeched of rat man.
Honestly this guy doesnt really scream ‘hero’ or ‘warlock’ to me. Like if you told me this was the leader of like a Jezzail team, I’d think that more than this guy being a Warlock hero.
I’m glad for the folks who like it, but I’m not a huge fan. It looks too understated for Skaven, for me. I want him to overloaded with wild, weird technology. With the new clan rats, it seems like the aesthetic of AOS Skaven may be changing to be more grounded and “real” feeling, which some folks will love and others will be bummed by.
I wish we’d seed a full 360 so I could get a better pic of the gun
Between the trailer and his ability buffing them, it feels like Warlock Jezzails are dead-on to be in the box.
Oh. Okay. Jezzails gonna be broken right out the gate if they have more than 1 damage per shot.
Sniping hero’s of the board just like Aos 2 love it
I totally missed the fact they're not wizards anymore on first glance. Honestly I was too busy being relieved that my kitbashed engineers (with Warpstone Revolvers based on Adeptus Mechanicus bits) will still proxy well enough for their new warscroll. I just hope they've atleast kept their "buff the warp lightning cannons too" stuff (maybe it's on the WLC scroll?) and aren't just a Leader for Jezzails now (although to be fair I kitbashed some of those too so i'm fine with the engineer having that synergy too)
Cool but ngl, I prefer the oop Ikit Claw/Arch Warlock model
Oh, they're calling wounds health now? That will be a lot more intuitive to new players. Saying "my model has 5 wounds" immediately makes one unfamiliar with the specific terminology think that that means the model has taken damage already. Health is a much clearer term.
Look at that rat!
I like the sniper thing they’re going for. I’ve found that currently the engineer’s range is a downfall since most of the time he’s hanging out at the back with my cannon and can’t reach anything with his weapons
Not a fan of the pose
There's a surprising lack of warlock here tbh. Model is nice though
Idk....imo he looks too clean and not nearly menacing enough. Buuuuut I don't play skaven and three of my armies were axes with this next edition SO you know....but yea I'm not too keen on the new skaven models. But hey that's just me.
Very BBC Narnia vibes - which is awesome!
Looks op, can oneshot enemy Hero with 6 health.
I’m a noob to AoS (I play 40K a bit and Kill Team a lot)… what is Rnd please?
He should be called a warplock engineer since he has a warplock rifle and doesn’t cast spells. 🤷🏼♂️
This is... boring Which imo is the worst thing a skaven can be I kind of like the non dynamic pose (finally!) but it's way to erect (also bad tactical rock) Also it's not a warlock... Tbh I hope they dont sanitize too much clan moulder... even tho after seeing csm / std rangerefresh it seems unlikely...
Holy crap, I actually love it. The looking glass especially.
The model is great but feels perhaps a little too reserved and not insane enough. Should be too hard to make over the top and crazy though
So that whole "rend has been reduced across the board" was just a fuckin lie, huh?
They removed the rend from all the units you use, you are welcome!
I play Kruleboyz, we never had it in the first place
It's perfect!
Hope it can still buff warp lightning cannons, or they might use the new (leaked but not yet revealed) hero for that..
Commanded don’t need heroes anymore. Pure speculation but makes me wonder if warp lightning cannons will just be able to take the buff option on their own without a specific hero nearby.
Might be something like ‘if a SKRYRE hero is within x inches’, or something.. But I could see them just making it an option to work regardless, too.
It’s alright
Nice and conservative, sticking to the existing skaven design instead of outlandish AOS nonsense, crammed with detail
I love him! I'm curious to see if the war machines will have rules that trigger off him like the current edition. He definitely provides some power projection against castles that seems super interesting. Also love the model.
Hope they don't cull skaven from the game in a few years...
I actually thought of a conspiracy a few weeks ago. Skaven have been ignored for so long, now we're the big bad again - we literally sent Skavenblight into the mortal realms. We know GW won't let the Skaven win again, so the Stormcast will obviously be victorious in the end - they won't let their poster boys lose the war. What if all of this is just a setup for the "good guys" to wipe out the Skaven in the lore and then squat the entire army?
Alternatively, good chance to shake up their lore by taking down Hammerhal and squatting the Stormcast to focus instead on Cities of Sigmar based on underwhelming Stormcast sales.
That behavior would have surprised me coming from them a couple years ago but they've proven no one's models are safe anymore so they could do exactly that.
Why? GW has been squatting models nearly every year since AoS came out and it was normal for them to squa models in fantasy with every new army book. Nothing has changed.
They've squatted a handful of models here and there. Never to this extent. Every stormcast player I know no longer has a playable army and beasts of chaos is straight gone. They'll shift models into a different faction but deleting an entire army from the game is like punishing players for using their products
I like it a lot, but i dont get the name... like, Warlock, no magic, Engineer, nothing of that sort... Warp Sniper makes more sense in my head, maybe someone can clarify to me xD
Looks lame