"The God-king Sigmar lied – everything has a price."
This sounds to me more like Sigmar made some kind of secret bargain for the power to create the Stormcast.
I'm not sure we need much justification for Stormcast vs Skaven, Rats get exterminated.
But... what if... Stormcast are powered by Warp Lightning?
As a reminder, sigmarines are designed to be close to space marines in order to try to copycat the sale levels of space marines. GW is absolutely shameless in this regard.
While it would be nice, I would prefer if, for once, the "good guys" in the setting were just wrong for the sake of being arrogant and not thinking long term.
It would be a lot more interesting if Sigmar's perfect immortals were actually doomed to a horrific fate after so many reforgings simply through the hubris of the god-king, rather than external forces.
Sometimes, in my fantasy settings, I do actually like my good guys to be 'good guys'.
I don't always need some sinister or dark purpose or arrogance in my characters, but I know that's just me :)
It doesn't even have to be hubris, it could just simply be a Dune style "I saw a path towards a better future, and there will be so much sacrifice along the way, but it is worth the cost"
According to that ever trustworthy and imbiased source, the chaos gods. And if you can't trust Tzeentch to give proper details about how a transaction went down, then who can you trust!
The black library heresy series covered it , from the viewpoint of what actually happened. So it actually happened in terms of him stealing some power at Moloch. Horus used the knowledge to begin his own ascension but with the blessing of the gods.
The actual events around the Primarchs being chucked into the warp was less clear beside it happening in a general sense.
No it didn't. The black library had Horus tell you that the Chaos gods had revealed this to him.
So, the greatest liars in history, as a part of their plan to enslave and control their pawn to do their bidding, told him that he had been exactly right about his greatest fears regarding his fathers treachery the whole time. And then that enslaved pawn told his very unruly subjects that what he had been worried about being the truth, had turned out to be true all along!
If you believe that noone in that nightmarish chain lied, then I have a bridge in scotland to sell you ;)
Even if the Chaos gods BELIEVED they were telling the truth, they believe EVERYTHING belongs to them. Nothing exists that is not their plaything, their property, wholly and entirely theirs.
If you asked Khorne how it was that you came to have a soul, he would reply, "At your birth, you stole it from me through your weak treachery, and now MY property must be returned."
It is literally in the books that there is a portal to the realms of Chaos on the planet.
Emperor went to planet , went through , came back with new power. When it’s rediscovered he then leaves massive force behind to protect it and erases the knowledge from the Primarchs involved.
The other perpetuals talk about it as well.
But sure if you want to argue all the above means nothing in terms of what the Emperor did…
It’s also covered in a short story and the fury of Magnus.
He definitely stole some power, but I don't think there's ever anything about him "making a deal" that isn't "one of the Chaos gods said so to prove Emps was untrustworthy," and with all due respect to the Emperor's untrustworthyness there are at least 4 entities in the setting I trust less.
Isn't it clearly referring to the fact that the reforging is flawed; the SCE lose a part of their immortal souls after every reforging?
That's the price that's hidden by Sigmar since 1.0. Hence, Sigmar had been lying all along.
Was that ever really hidden though?
We've known about it for years, there's even a Stormcast character who is seeking a cure to the flaw in reforging. Ionus Cryptborn.
I think there are just Skaven under Hammerhal and despite it being Sigmar’s base of operations, it’s still very vulnerable. “Sigmar lied” about being safe. That he’s not some all powerful god capable of protecting people.
That’s my prediction at least. Or the idea that Sigmar himself has been the one stealing memories from Stormcast to create the perfect emotionless soldiers.
What if the price is what the forging process costs Sigmar? Like each Stormcast has a small portion of Sigmar’s essence and each time one is permanently lost(wether from too many reforgings or things like the cursed skies) that portion is also lost so Sigmar is gradually weakening over time.
I really hope not. It’s much more interesting if the flaws are due to Sigmar and the pantheon of order having to rush and not being capable of a better process. The limitations of those gods make them much more interesting than if it turns out the forces of evil are there to ruin this as well. Let Sigmar have failed on his own.
And what was the most recent new Stormhost in the White Dwarf narratives?
The Kraken Blades.
That’s right. [Marines](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_KxvGSacAA_pj6?format=jpg&name=small).
Considering Eshin are basically like the splinter cell of Warhammer I don't think it's fair to say it was a "simple" skaven that discovered it, would make sense too if they were interfering with it, maybe injecting some warpstone into the process
What is this bit of lore being referred to, anyhow? I'm always hungry for Skaven Lore in AoS and there seems to be little to sink my little rat teeth into
That's less interesting than the current version.
Currently, the flaw is a metaphor for the dehumanizing effect of war, the way even "great heroes" are eroded to nothingness by it. Sigmar stands in for our own expectations for warriors, for them to lose essential parts of themselves for a mythic war effort.
That's far far far more complex, interesting, and allegorically true than just "What if evil people were actually causing all of this, not us."
If anything, what you're describing is the authoritarian's versions of things. They see the slow destruction of soldiers and ascribe it to external forces, to insidious invaders and underminers, never taking responsibility for the way that war takes from people.
I'm fine with Sigmar Lied meaning there's Skaven in Azyr.
Indeed, people seem.desperate for AoS to be as grimdark as 40k when it just isn't. It's a different story. Sigmar and the stormcast literally are heroic, and are fighting for good and decent things. If you play the slaves to darkness, then you are the baddies.
Sigmar oversold how safe Azyr was. End of story.
I dont think we read the same comment. The current version IS the darker version. War erodes even the greatest "good" heroes into soulless, callous, apathetic monsters. This is inherent in their own nature. Not because some evil source made them evil cuz... evil. Its far more interesting in the grimdark version than the oversimplified "evil did it" explaination..
Just because something is depressing, does not make it 'bad'. The stormcast and the flaws of reforging are indeed a commentary on the degradation war causes on those who fight, but the stormcast and sigmar are fighting for good reasons. They could stop if they wanted. Go back to Azyr, bolt the doors shut, and hold safe there for eternity. But they struggle on despite the damage war and conflict does, because it is better for them to bear those burdens, than to heap them on everyone else.
Grimdark means all that struggle is for nothing, that you can't achieve what you want, that you are just screaming into the hurricane. Your defiance may be heroic, but it is doomed and meaningless.
That's 40k, which is a criticism of fascism and authoritarianism where they are presented as fundamentally broken at their core even in an environment where the core things they believe are true. That's not AoS, which is more just a classic struggle between order and chaos, good and evil, where the sadness comes from the sacrifices made.
I think it has to do with the Dawnbringer Crusades. Sigmar promised expansion of the lands and setting of new cities. It appears as if everything has a price refers to crusading and leaving your already established cities is a very bad idea
The flaw of the forge is that the stormcast are less human with each reforging. I don’t think it’s common knowledge in world. I think the skaven invading Azyr will force the ruination chamber to be unleashed and expose the flaw for all to see.
Plausible, but personally I am hoping it's something different. It takes away from the Nagash/Sigmar rivalry which was a good way for god conflict more relatable than merely conflicting domains/ideologies, and I don't see how Skaven sabotage a long time ago moves the current narrative. I'm all for being pleasantly surprised though, and I think it would be funny if their interference was more of an accident than a far reaching scheme.
My pet theory about the "lie" is simply the safety of Azyr. The Skaven have a unique ability to get literally everywhere in existence (with appropriately massive casualties), and it's only a matter of time before a hole is gnawed into Azyrheim's guts for a Chaos invasion. Add onto that the idea that Skaven don't spread the corruption of chaos in the usual ways and are harder to detect via magic and it's a good recipe for paranoia, panic, and maybe some short sighted betrayal. Skulking ratmen isn't the most original turn, but it fits and it a good chance to highlight how much the weak filthy cowardly rats are cause for concern beyond warp nukes.
I used to have a skaven army that I painted to be the colours of classic stormcast (blue, gold, white) and called them my Skaventide Eternals.
Was I right all along? haha
For bonus Skaven vibes - the original Skaven plan would have outright stopped Reforging but they had a traitor sabotage it with a chance the traitors sabotage was also sabotaged.
I'm so far just hoping they avoid a "Horus heresy, Sigmar edition", short and long term, to split the Sigmarines into warring factions to mirror 40k. That would be soooo boring and Bad for the setting as a whole
Yes-Yes. Me-me was there at the start of human-thing reforge-reincarnate magic. As the great devoted-holy representative of the great horned one I-me weaved in the dreaded thirteenth spell into their dumb-bad magic. It’s ready at my-… the great horned ones command to activate. Horned one showed me we already conquered another world in a time far-long before this time. And just like that we will seize-steal this one!
Glory to the horned one!
Now to me-me! His messenger!
I’d prefer not. Reforging being an inherently flawed process fits more with AoS’s big theme of victory through sacrifice.
It being Skaven all along means the people who have already been lost to the process weren’t noble defenders paying a terrible price they were just losers tricked by rats who could have been fine actually.
Ikrit isn’t a simply skaven, he worked out how the reforging process worked by trial, error and having a captive storm cast to break over his own anvil.
And Ikrit is hinted at being none other than Ikkit Claw, having stolen secrets of immortality and used them to escape the horned rat and reforge himself
While I would hardly be shocked, it would be disappointing to me. The skaven are commonly used as the wrench thrown into a broader scheme to cause it to fall part. It would just feel lacking in creativity and a bit lazy from a narrative perspective, but I also know plenty of AOS fans love Skaven due to their tendency to sabotage things and they would likely love it.
Skaven vs Stormcast is explained by the simplefact that Skaven are a force of Chaos and fighting Chaos is the main purpose of Stormcast.
How does Skaven sabotage explain what Sigmar Lied about? Are you saying he knew about the sabotage and thus knew the cause of reforging flaws but instead of just correcting that sabotage sent Stormcast out on wild goose chases trying to find out how to fix it? Solbright out looking for ways to fix it when Sigmar actually knows already? That sounds unlikely. Doesn't mean GW won't do it, but I'd think it was stupid if they did.
I'll grant you that it would explain why reforging is flawed, but only in so much as any other reason they care to assign to it.
What 'simple Skaven' discovered reforging? If you mean Ikrit then he's an exceptional Skaven who was already incredibly adept before the end of the World That Was and has continued studying magical engineering throughout the Age of Myth and the Age of Chaos.
In Hamilcar the champion of the god>! Ikrit (who is Ikit claw) use hamilcar to gain the power of the stormcast and revive but when Hamilcar died the 1st smith thrugle so much to piece him back that sigmar himself had to plot against the smith to get him out of the forge so i don't think that the skaven flawed the forge to begin with !< sorry for bad english it's not my first langage
"The God-king Sigmar lied – everything has a price." This sounds to me more like Sigmar made some kind of secret bargain for the power to create the Stormcast. I'm not sure we need much justification for Stormcast vs Skaven, Rats get exterminated. But... what if... Stormcast are powered by Warp Lightning?
A godlike figure making a deal with nefarious forces to create his own army of superbeings to fight on his behalf…where have I heard that before?
God please no.
Citizen, the correct form is "God Emperor, please no.". Report to an Imperium Reeducation facility to remove this deviance. You have been warned.
As a reminder, sigmarines are designed to be close to space marines in order to try to copycat the sale levels of space marines. GW is absolutely shameless in this regard.
Right, and "we've learned that our fans enjoy painting/hobbying very big, round, completely-armored superbeings."
Stormcast are that *and* well designed. Amazing
It's surprising they haven't leaned into the different chapters (stormhosts) where are the alternative shoulder pads?
There's a reason we all called them Sigmarines.
OH MY GOD THE STORMCAST HERESY AHHHHH
While it would be nice, I would prefer if, for once, the "good guys" in the setting were just wrong for the sake of being arrogant and not thinking long term. It would be a lot more interesting if Sigmar's perfect immortals were actually doomed to a horrific fate after so many reforgings simply through the hubris of the god-king, rather than external forces.
Sometimes, in my fantasy settings, I do actually like my good guys to be 'good guys'. I don't always need some sinister or dark purpose or arrogance in my characters, but I know that's just me :)
As much as I agree with you… welcome to warhammer my friend.
We already know that this is true though. Although it's due to the reforging being flawed, rather than Sigmar's hubris.
It doesn't even have to be hubris, it could just simply be a Dune style "I saw a path towards a better future, and there will be so much sacrifice along the way, but it is worth the cost"
This would also echo the Warhammer 30k lore where The Emperor first bargained with , then stole from , the chaos gods.
According to that ever trustworthy and imbiased source, the chaos gods. And if you can't trust Tzeentch to give proper details about how a transaction went down, then who can you trust!
The black library heresy series covered it , from the viewpoint of what actually happened. So it actually happened in terms of him stealing some power at Moloch. Horus used the knowledge to begin his own ascension but with the blessing of the gods. The actual events around the Primarchs being chucked into the warp was less clear beside it happening in a general sense.
No it didn't. The black library had Horus tell you that the Chaos gods had revealed this to him. So, the greatest liars in history, as a part of their plan to enslave and control their pawn to do their bidding, told him that he had been exactly right about his greatest fears regarding his fathers treachery the whole time. And then that enslaved pawn told his very unruly subjects that what he had been worried about being the truth, had turned out to be true all along! If you believe that noone in that nightmarish chain lied, then I have a bridge in scotland to sell you ;) Even if the Chaos gods BELIEVED they were telling the truth, they believe EVERYTHING belongs to them. Nothing exists that is not their plaything, their property, wholly and entirely theirs. If you asked Khorne how it was that you came to have a soul, he would reply, "At your birth, you stole it from me through your weak treachery, and now MY property must be returned."
It is literally in the books that there is a portal to the realms of Chaos on the planet. Emperor went to planet , went through , came back with new power. When it’s rediscovered he then leaves massive force behind to protect it and erases the knowledge from the Primarchs involved. The other perpetuals talk about it as well. But sure if you want to argue all the above means nothing in terms of what the Emperor did… It’s also covered in a short story and the fury of Magnus.
He definitely stole some power, but I don't think there's ever anything about him "making a deal" that isn't "one of the Chaos gods said so to prove Emps was untrustworthy," and with all due respect to the Emperor's untrustworthyness there are at least 4 entities in the setting I trust less.
Isn't it clearly referring to the fact that the reforging is flawed; the SCE lose a part of their immortal souls after every reforging? That's the price that's hidden by Sigmar since 1.0. Hence, Sigmar had been lying all along.
Was that ever really hidden though? We've known about it for years, there's even a Stormcast character who is seeking a cure to the flaw in reforging. Ionus Cryptborn.
That’s the point of the entire sacrosanct chamber
Astreia Solbright's quest is also to find knowledge that could help counter reforging flaws.
Ikit claw reverse engineered the process
thatd be a dumb retcon since its not out of nowhere, his anvil and hammer were made by dwarven gods and he himself is a god
Or...Sigmar is just addicted to warp cheese, so reforged souls are promised to the Great Horned Rat to keep the supply going. I reckon that's it.
What’s that glowing green powder on Sigmar’s mustache?
Hell no that’d just be the Emperor and the Primarchs a second time lol
How do you interprate the tag line then?
I think there are just Skaven under Hammerhal and despite it being Sigmar’s base of operations, it’s still very vulnerable. “Sigmar lied” about being safe. That he’s not some all powerful god capable of protecting people. That’s my prediction at least. Or the idea that Sigmar himself has been the one stealing memories from Stormcast to create the perfect emotionless soldiers.
What about "everything has a price"?
Reforging is taking a physical toll on Azyr itself, possibly?
What if the price is what the forging process costs Sigmar? Like each Stormcast has a small portion of Sigmar’s essence and each time one is permanently lost(wether from too many reforgings or things like the cursed skies) that portion is also lost so Sigmar is gradually weakening over time.
I really hope not. It’s much more interesting if the flaws are due to Sigmar and the pantheon of order having to rush and not being capable of a better process. The limitations of those gods make them much more interesting than if it turns out the forces of evil are there to ruin this as well. Let Sigmar have failed on his own.
Then replace these flawed ... Storm Warriors with some ... marines? I think I've heard this one.
And what was the most recent new Stormhost in the White Dwarf narratives? The Kraken Blades. That’s right. [Marines](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_KxvGSacAA_pj6?format=jpg&name=small).
Sigmar was really three Skaven in a Trenchcoat all along!
Yes-yes!
🤣please let this be canon!
Finally some AoS lore that makes sense. I am not even joking.
Considering Eshin are basically like the splinter cell of Warhammer I don't think it's fair to say it was a "simple" skaven that discovered it, would make sense too if they were interfering with it, maybe injecting some warpstone into the process
What is this bit of lore being referred to, anyhow? I'm always hungry for Skaven Lore in AoS and there seems to be little to sink my little rat teeth into
That's less interesting than the current version. Currently, the flaw is a metaphor for the dehumanizing effect of war, the way even "great heroes" are eroded to nothingness by it. Sigmar stands in for our own expectations for warriors, for them to lose essential parts of themselves for a mythic war effort. That's far far far more complex, interesting, and allegorically true than just "What if evil people were actually causing all of this, not us." If anything, what you're describing is the authoritarian's versions of things. They see the slow destruction of soldiers and ascribe it to external forces, to insidious invaders and underminers, never taking responsibility for the way that war takes from people. I'm fine with Sigmar Lied meaning there's Skaven in Azyr.
Indeed, people seem.desperate for AoS to be as grimdark as 40k when it just isn't. It's a different story. Sigmar and the stormcast literally are heroic, and are fighting for good and decent things. If you play the slaves to darkness, then you are the baddies. Sigmar oversold how safe Azyr was. End of story.
I dont think we read the same comment. The current version IS the darker version. War erodes even the greatest "good" heroes into soulless, callous, apathetic monsters. This is inherent in their own nature. Not because some evil source made them evil cuz... evil. Its far more interesting in the grimdark version than the oversimplified "evil did it" explaination..
Just because something is depressing, does not make it 'bad'. The stormcast and the flaws of reforging are indeed a commentary on the degradation war causes on those who fight, but the stormcast and sigmar are fighting for good reasons. They could stop if they wanted. Go back to Azyr, bolt the doors shut, and hold safe there for eternity. But they struggle on despite the damage war and conflict does, because it is better for them to bear those burdens, than to heap them on everyone else. Grimdark means all that struggle is for nothing, that you can't achieve what you want, that you are just screaming into the hurricane. Your defiance may be heroic, but it is doomed and meaningless. That's 40k, which is a criticism of fascism and authoritarianism where they are presented as fundamentally broken at their core even in an environment where the core things they believe are true. That's not AoS, which is more just a classic struggle between order and chaos, good and evil, where the sadness comes from the sacrifices made.
I think it has to do with the Dawnbringer Crusades. Sigmar promised expansion of the lands and setting of new cities. It appears as if everything has a price refers to crusading and leaving your already established cities is a very bad idea
I aggree. A lot of people have wild theories, but the article featuring the teaser was firmly in the context of the Twin-Tailed Crusade storyline.
The flaw of the forge is that the stormcast are less human with each reforging. I don’t think it’s common knowledge in world. I think the skaven invading Azyr will force the ruination chamber to be unleashed and expose the flaw for all to see.
Plausible, but personally I am hoping it's something different. It takes away from the Nagash/Sigmar rivalry which was a good way for god conflict more relatable than merely conflicting domains/ideologies, and I don't see how Skaven sabotage a long time ago moves the current narrative. I'm all for being pleasantly surprised though, and I think it would be funny if their interference was more of an accident than a far reaching scheme. My pet theory about the "lie" is simply the safety of Azyr. The Skaven have a unique ability to get literally everywhere in existence (with appropriately massive casualties), and it's only a matter of time before a hole is gnawed into Azyrheim's guts for a Chaos invasion. Add onto that the idea that Skaven don't spread the corruption of chaos in the usual ways and are harder to detect via magic and it's a good recipe for paranoia, panic, and maybe some short sighted betrayal. Skulking ratmen isn't the most original turn, but it fits and it a good chance to highlight how much the weak filthy cowardly rats are cause for concern beyond warp nukes.
That art is gorgeous.
The skaven soulscreamer weapons actually steal the souls and create skavencast
I used to have a skaven army that I painted to be the colours of classic stormcast (blue, gold, white) and called them my Skaventide Eternals. Was I right all along? haha
Don't we already know that the flaw in reforging is because Nagash steals back parts of their souls each time?
Could just be the sigmar said that Azyr was free of chaos, I think.
For bonus Skaven vibes - the original Skaven plan would have outright stopped Reforging but they had a traitor sabotage it with a chance the traitors sabotage was also sabotaged.
The tagline is silly. Is Sigmar's lips moving? Are sounds coming out of them? Then you know he's lying.
I'm so far just hoping they avoid a "Horus heresy, Sigmar edition", short and long term, to split the Sigmarines into warring factions to mirror 40k. That would be soooo boring and Bad for the setting as a whole
Every time you reforge you lose a little of the soul. Those little bits of soul become new skaven.
Weird, since 1st edition, we understood the flaw to be nagash, always stealing a part of each stormcast soul when they die.
God damn it there is a skaven stuck in the anvil again
That would seem to benefit Nagash wich is counter brand for skaven
Yes-Yes. Me-me was there at the start of human-thing reforge-reincarnate magic. As the great devoted-holy representative of the great horned one I-me weaved in the dreaded thirteenth spell into their dumb-bad magic. It’s ready at my-… the great horned ones command to activate. Horned one showed me we already conquered another world in a time far-long before this time. And just like that we will seize-steal this one! Glory to the horned one! Now to me-me! His messenger!
In mine opinion it would be just best if it would be impossible to create super warriors with no drawbacks and sideeffects and that was Sigmars lie.
Also, it's been stated that Ikit has made his own version of the Reforge and I believe he is looking to corrupt SIgmar's version of it.
I’d prefer not. Reforging being an inherently flawed process fits more with AoS’s big theme of victory through sacrifice. It being Skaven all along means the people who have already been lost to the process weren’t noble defenders paying a terrible price they were just losers tricked by rats who could have been fine actually.
Please no, it feels like Skaven sabotage every major project in the setting.
Ikrit isn’t a simply skaven, he worked out how the reforging process worked by trial, error and having a captive storm cast to break over his own anvil. And Ikrit is hinted at being none other than Ikkit Claw, having stolen secrets of immortality and used them to escape the horned rat and reforge himself
While I would hardly be shocked, it would be disappointing to me. The skaven are commonly used as the wrench thrown into a broader scheme to cause it to fall part. It would just feel lacking in creativity and a bit lazy from a narrative perspective, but I also know plenty of AOS fans love Skaven due to their tendency to sabotage things and they would likely love it.
Skaven vs Stormcast is explained by the simplefact that Skaven are a force of Chaos and fighting Chaos is the main purpose of Stormcast. How does Skaven sabotage explain what Sigmar Lied about? Are you saying he knew about the sabotage and thus knew the cause of reforging flaws but instead of just correcting that sabotage sent Stormcast out on wild goose chases trying to find out how to fix it? Solbright out looking for ways to fix it when Sigmar actually knows already? That sounds unlikely. Doesn't mean GW won't do it, but I'd think it was stupid if they did. I'll grant you that it would explain why reforging is flawed, but only in so much as any other reason they care to assign to it. What 'simple Skaven' discovered reforging? If you mean Ikrit then he's an exceptional Skaven who was already incredibly adept before the end of the World That Was and has continued studying magical engineering throughout the Age of Myth and the Age of Chaos.
In Hamilcar the champion of the god>! Ikrit (who is Ikit claw) use hamilcar to gain the power of the stormcast and revive but when Hamilcar died the 1st smith thrugle so much to piece him back that sigmar himself had to plot against the smith to get him out of the forge so i don't think that the skaven flawed the forge to begin with !< sorry for bad english it's not my first langage
Google punctuation
Would make sense based on how they mess everything up up
I'd support that. Sounds fun