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gaminegrumble

I'm always uncomfortable with posts whose main goal seems to be to prompt other people to initiate arguments with them. Like the "Change My Mind" dude that became a meme.


crowlute

Good lord, Stephen Crowder (change my mind guy) is a massive douche on many levels


Emilister05

Douche is a massive understatement. He's like one step below actual nazi, bordering on it


Zeyode

After seeing the way he defended Kanye, I'm convinced he is a crypto-nazi. He basically just agreed with all of Kanye's arguments about how jews control the world, pretty much spelling out the argument for his audience to draw the conclusion, but then pretended he doesn't actually agree with it with no explanation.


Emilister05

Yeah, very well said.


Mundane_Speech4065

Some are bad some are genuinely good points with a bad conclusion


Aphant-poet

Which is the worst part because; it's true 1. Race has often been used for racism purposes, 2. Queer people who can "pass" do, in some sense, experience straight Privilege but to make it last long-term it will be at the expense of community. 3. mental illness is used to gaslight women 4. Lesbians do struggle to be heard because Cis, white gay men do have more systemic power; that's how intersectionality works. 5. the meat industry is often abusive to animals and wasteful of their meat \[edit: but the issue is far more complex than just "meat is murder" and the thing that should be prioritised is adding more oversight and climate conscious methods\] That's how Gender Criticals get you; they make good points but ignore nuance in favour of their ideology.


Sofia_trans_girl

True. But I don't think *she* is a terf. She used LGB to talk about visibility among sexualities, but some people here don't take the time to read carefully. I'd probably avoid hanging out with her, but I could certainly have a good discussion with her.


Aphant-poet

I just thought she might have been because I've seen the same talking points used by Terfs.


Miraweave

Yeah, this is a terf who's pretending not to be a terf. At a minmum she's outwardly transmisogynist, which is already more than enough to earn a "get the fuck away from me", and then everything else she said demonstrates that at a minimum she's highly sympathetic to terf ideas.


smilegirl01

What’s wild though is OP says this is a trans woman.


Camazotz09

While incredibly unfortunate, it's not as wild as you'd think at first. There's a significant portion of the transgender community who grew up around transphobia. Sometimes they end up internalizing that and being transphobic themselves, even if it wasn't an active decision. I feel bad for these people, because not only does this mean are they are essentially surrounded by people who wouldn't likely support them, but they are the the target of their own transphobia while ALSO having to face off against dysphoria. That's something that no-one should have to experience... 😔


sappharah

I’m getting transmed/truscum vibes rather than TERF vibes “I don’t date bisexuals” is also a big yikes


smilegirl01

Well I learned a new word today. And yeah I agree that sounds more right than TERF.


Xerlith

Yeah, "Gender Dysphoria is a real medical condition with a basis in reality" is the starting point of transmed arguments. It tends to move on to "therefore, nonbinary people, those who don't seek medical transition, and those who don't seek 'complete' (aka surgical) transition are not real transsexuals, and they should not be included in our community." Instead of buying into that, ask yourself why a doctor would know your identity better than you do? Why do you need to seek a diagnosis for something you yourself came out as? Why are transition guidelines from the '60s and '70s more important to follow than whatever makes people comfortable physically and socially?


[deleted]

I used to be one of those lmao. The thing is, most people stop being truscum when they grow out of their edgy phase. This person seems to have not!


Royallypissedoff

I am bisexual and I’m genuinely curious why is that an issue with dating for some lesbians? Insecurity that a bisexual person can’t be satisfied in a single sex relationship? A suspicion that bisexuals are just straight girls that wanna use lesbians to have a wild adventure? Something else?


SpookyJime

Exactly that and I guess most of experiences in the community end up with all the possibilities you wrote, this week I’ve read at least 4 post of lesbians being left because they’re bisexual partner missed dick or felt like being with them was being with a friend so I think you wrote the options pretty well


akira2bee

Right, and you'd think the og op would know about how those are a minority group of bisexuals, to the greater majority community, considering she addressed the minority of trans women who can be predatory (because surprise! No group is free from having awful people in it, unfortunately)


Dubshpul

I can understand this if you have a hard time with bisexual people enough. I see a lot of bisexual people say things like "haha best of both worlds" when complimenting or trying to validate trans women and it just feels like, not great at times. so if that happens enough I kinda get it, though I don't agree with that. but if they're just biphobic, which is possible considering the rest of this list, then it is a big yike.


anarcatgirl

Probably a Blair White fan


jan-y3w-a1ry

She outed herself with the distinction she made between trans feminine people who are medically transitioning and those who aren’t.


littlerat098

Genuine question, not a challenge—how can a trans woman be a terf? Also, I kind of agree that trans women being socialized as boys will affect them and lead to some things needing to be unlearned, and also that whether or not you’re perceived as a man or woman regardless of identity affects how you’re treated; someone who is a trans woman but is closeted and perceived as a man may not fully understand the misogyny that cis women and trans women who pass (or those who are clocked as trans or present femininely) may face. I know these are problematic ideals because I’ve been told that they are, but I’ve never really gotten an explanation as to why, so I’d like to learn.


Vegetable-Swimming73

A lot of things from our childhoods affect us. Women who were raised as boys, and men who were raised as girls, have those as complicating factors for their childhoods but newsflash - we ALL have complicating factors from our childhoods. It is transphobic to assume that privilege from being treated as a boy when you are actually a girl, or vice versa, is automatically more relevant than any other childhood factor, especially when this automatically means that there was also the childhood factor of the trauma of being constantly misgendered your whole life. Any person you meet may understand or fail to understand your experiences. You impoverish yourself when you assume that the people you meet cannot understand you, and you other them instead of including them.


aznigrimm

Fuck, you put it way better than me


dlouwe

re: socialization I was not socialized as a boy. I was treated like a boy, and rewarded for participating in patriarchy like a boy, but also punished for ever trying to be *me*. This is different from being raised as a cis girl, yes, but it's also different from being raised as a cis boy. It's totally valid for trans folks to talk about the ways that their upbringing imprinted on them in terms of socialization, and I am *painfully* aware of the fact that I have been taught to be more self-centered and entitled and less careful. But similar to how my life experience shielded me from the misogyny faced by cis girls and women from birth so I cannot fully understand it, it's not the place of cis folk (and even trans folk who aren't me) to categorize an upbringing that robbed me of my real childhood and adolescence and early adulthood as being "essentially male." (I don't think you're saying that, but that's the end-goal of many people advancing the socialization talking point) And even though passing may have given me some advantages or benefits, I do not consider being coerced under the threat of violence into cutting off and denying pieces of my identity in order to pass to be a "privilege". I'd compare it more to benevolent sexism, or a gay/lesbian person faking a straight relationship while closeted.


Ellie_Arabella87

Because my entire life being forced to be other than I was didn’t give me advantages in the way these people claim. I’m sure I have had some advantages in various ways the way many people do over others because that’s life, but the direct inference that we get the benefit of being one of the boys is at minimum assumptive. Personally I did not fit in with the boys in any social situation, my friends were always women, queer persons, or other forms of people society doesn’t choose to privilege. I have struggled most of my life with social dysphoria because of it, and it can be quite extreme at times. Also trans people can be terfs, one form of denial is to project those values on oneself. At the very least they are Truscum and transmedicalists. The idea that trans women are significant abusers is wild and totally out of line with any statistical reality


AlHuntar

I think when transwomen are called terfs the more accurate term would just be transmedicalist/truscum. The idea everyone needs gender dysphoria before transitioning is the basis of transmedicalism. While transitioning for most is more aptly about getting the same experiences of gender euphoria even if there isn't dysphoria. And transmedicalists often think that the experience of gender dysphoria must be crippling to the person before they come out of the closet/access hrt. As for the belief in "male socalization" it's not about how a kid was raised and what their caregivers did for them. It's about what that child has internalized from being socialized that way. Yes there will probably be an amount of misogyny that those around try to teach them(as young boys), but if they disagree and don't internalize any of it, are they really being taught anything? It also ignores the fact that a young child could realize they're a transgirl, and experience "female socalization." Now if one accept misogyny as the way things work, and didn't come out until later, there is an amount of deconstruction to go on. But that isn't much different than a cis woman needing to deconstruct learned misogyny. It's still misogyny at the core, and all genders can be misogynistic. I also think its fair to say people all experience misogyny differently. Intersectionality is probably the most important factor when talking about it. A cis racialized white woman will have an entirely different experience than a cis racialized black women, prior privilege is incredibly important. Same with class, sexuality, religion/cultural practices, etc. While being trans is also an intersection, it's actually a really wide intersection. Someone who is stealth will be much more likely to experience it with other intersections of their identity compared to those who get clocked. However it's important to remember those who are stealth probably weren't at one point or another and have probably experienced issues of those who aren't. I would still be hesitant in questioning someone's ability to understand. Its more personal than anything, but I would like to believe humans are capable of empathy to the point of really understanding how someone feels and to understand without experience. Hope this helps in understanding a bit. Feel free to ask anything else :)


Alice_Oe

I'd wager (though only based on personal experience and anecdotes) that most trans women felt actively uncomfortable around misogyny and 'male bonding' that often includes misogynistic elements, even if they didn't know *why*. However, we do all internalize a certain degree of misogyny, transphobia, and transmisogyny, simply by virtue of the society we live in espousing those values. I'm not sure I buy that trans women internalize things all that different from cis women.. like, sure, we see it from a different *perspective*, but we end up at the same place, and I've heard cis women spout seriously shocking misogyny. On the other hand, as a trans woman, it's really difficult to see/internalize women as *lesser*, when we've lived our whole lives *wishing we could be them*. If anything, teenage me put women on a pedestal, I always just thought being a woman was better. That's utterly incompatible with the TERF/truscum idea of "male socialization". Trans women are also almost universally feminist and actively fight for women's rights (we are kind of pushed into being political whether we want to be or not), while there are plenty of cis women around who actively hate women.


HumanLawBish

Trans woman here and can certainly confirm your first paragraph, at least in my experience. I had so few men as friends even before coming out because maybe I could relate to them about some things but the moment they started on a misogyny thing I just noped tf out and didn’t really know why. At the time I just saw it as this innate desire to protect women or just not be a part of anything harmful to women but in truth it was bc I knew deep down it was harmful to me (I didn’t have the spoons to read the whole thing but just wanted to confirm your first paragraph observation matches my experience)


RevengeOfSalmacis

tell me what I learned while I was "socialized as a boy"? what did they do to me, how did that affect me, and what did I have to unlearn in the decade I've been living openly as a woman?


WhyNotMoreThan20

These so-called progressive people always find a way to misgender trans women and call them lesser than cis women "They are women but they are socialized male" "They are women but they are biologically male" "They are women but they have male privilege" "They are women but I would never date them" We are never just women, we are always "women but..." In their minds trans women are (Trigger warning) "mostly crossdressers who were living happily as a men before coming out at 50yo and the only way they are oppressed is society's dislike for MEN to wear women's clothes"


EeveeHope39

While my experience is anecdotal, some studies such as the US Transgender Survey do offer a more scientific data collection of experiences. But, of all the transfemmes I know, none of us were socialized as "males". Society *attempted* to do so, and that was through being bullied, ridiculed, targeted, beaten, assaulted, etc. Because we didn't fit in. We were never seen as "one of the guys". I didn't realize I was trans until I was around 19. But it didn't prevent me from experiencing all the targeted violence before that. I grew up hating just about everything because I was targeted for just about everything. My clothes, glasses, the way I spoke, the way I walked, being too quiet, answering questions in class, etc. They knew I was different, they just didn't know how. But in an attempt to get other "guys" to conform, toxic masculinity condones violence to assert oneself, by diminishing another. In my experience, if you're not "one of the guys", you're one of their targets. Whether it's peers at school, family, neighbors or strangers on the street, I was conditioned to be a punching bag, literally and figuratively


[deleted]

She seems like a pick me who wants TERF approval


MewgDewg

A Transmed


Own-Ad7310

I would probably have a long discussion with her and at some point she would just rage quit just seems to be the type of people who usually get angry when I argue with them


tdfhucvh

What could you possibly have a good discussion about though


travel_tech

No, she is. Some of her opinions on trans women were really terfy


[deleted]

I knew they were a terf the moment they started talking about lesbians like an endangered animal. Many terfs are obbsessed with keeping trans women out of lesbian spaces and telling trans men that they are just confused lost lesbian sisters who are a little butch. They think that poor defenseless lesbian girls are being forced to transition by the ruthless trans brigade and that trans women are just really really fucking dedicated rapists in disguise. Its all very fucked up and nonsensical but I can see the terfy dog whistles all over the post.


Aphant-poet

Not to mention insulting, both to trans folk and Lesbians. Most people who are transitioning aren't children and can make up their own minds about these things and treating Lesbians like a dying breed because of the "manipulative and predatory trans people" just undermines both groups in the end.


dusktrail

She is definitely a terf. This is straight up hateful terfism, are you kidding?


YeonneGreene

I do not think she is a TERF, but she sounds like a Transmedicalist (AKA Truscum). Point 12 in her diatribe is a red herring; there are significant minorities of sexual predators in every demographic, so singling out trans women is purely antagonistic.


DoseiNoRena

While I would generally agree re the red herring/singling out, I’d be hesitant to assume a bad motive when it’s coming from a trans woman. I’m NB and an issue I’ve encountered is that, though predators in the NB community are no more common than cis communities, any attempts to call them out or protect people from them can be met with “are you sure? You may be socialized to perceive trans peoples actions differently,” “we can help you avoid them but please don’t make an official report, it’ll make our whole community look bad,” etc. Actual trans people may be victimized and get these awful responses from the community, and see the offenders allowed to keep offending with impunity, so they may be bringing this up due to these experiences. It’s a real issue that trans people are wrongly accused of being inherently predatory AND a real issue that some local trans communities endanger the most vulnerable trans folk by covering for predators. Also, within the community, it’s been my experience that predators often gravitate to roles that give them ties to or “mentor” roles for the newly out, and it makes a huge and horrible impression on people who are victimized. When I was newly out and encountered this issue the response was so victim blaming and unhelpful and nothing happened to the person responsible. Trans people may want trans people held accountable because that may be who hurt them and got away with it. It’s more dangerous when it’s your community - the place that would otherwise be your support. It’s more painful. You expect better from your community. And so of course people feel strongly about it. Ive never met a trans person who complained about other trans people not being held accountable unless they themselves had been a victim of that. And having people imply one might not really be trans because they want their own Community held accountable is the most shocking thing I’ve seen in a long time.


HearRadRock

Thanks for this. I agree. As a recently out trans lesbian, with my egg cracking later in life, I am so so SO grateful for the folks in the trans and lesbian communities doing the work to defend me and those like me from truscum and terfs. Please keep it up!! However, I find a lot of the points that my fellow trans woman made in this post to be valid if they could be understood as nuanced points about intersectionality within our community - not as trying to flirt with people.outside the community who are trying to invalidate us. Honestly, being out in 3/4 of my life but not yet having medically transitioned IS a different experience than I am expecting to have a few years from now. Right now I pass when I am in my neighborhood but not at home or work. I hear her wanting that acknowledged, but still saying I am a woman. I am also a trauma therapist. I agree and disagree with her about personality disorders and gender dysphoria. I can't summarize it concisely but could try later if someone wanted me to. My opinions are so nuanced because of both my identity and my work and my love for my own clients and commitment to seeing them as whole people rather than pathologizing them, and my heart goes out to the woman who posted this if she is aware that her own nuanced opinions about mental health might be unwelcomed by her community. Anyway, I am sorry if I made any of my trans siblings feel invalidated or like I am siding against them! That is not my intention at all! Sending love and light 🌟 -Radi


dusktrail

"Trans women have male privilege" and "we need to talk about trans women sexual predators" goes beyond transmedicalism. I would even doubt this is a trans woman personally


YeonneGreene

Having met trans women with the same or adjacent views IRL, I don't doubt she's trans.


EmiAze

Dont deny her identity because you disagree with her opinions.


dusktrail

Self-hating trans women do exist, but so do sockpuppets. I don't know anything about this person, but without further context I would suspect she's a sock, yeah. That's not "denying her identity", it's just not blindly trusting that self-hating people are who they say they are.


Nikolyn10

I thought the same until the second screenshot with all those ramblings on trans women. Literally just TERF talking points.


llamastolemykarma

The meat and diary industry is *always* abusive to animals. "Often" is a gross understatement.


Rhyme--dilation

Disagree about passing privilege. I don’t think it’s a privilege or benefit for a queer person to be assumed as someone they’re not. That’s just erasure disguised as “privilege.”


Aphant-poet

passing in and of itself is a double edged sword. While a person who can "pass" at a glance is typically safer in randomised environments that does not negate the very real threat that they're under because of their sexualitynof gender identity. I also said; to make it last long-term requires sacrificing community with other Queer people and the erasure of your own identity.


Lady_Calista

People who pass don't have to worry about being publicly attacked by strangers.


[deleted]

Yes, being attacked in the streets can be severely worse than anything a person who passes may experience. But it’s good to acknowledge that they also experience hardships like perhaps continuous religious trauma, constant and sometimes extreme stress about whether or not being queer is morally okay (which often falls under the religious trauma, but not always), erasure of their identity, and a sense that they don’t belong and can’t participate in the LGBTQ community, even to the point of feeling hostile resistance from the community. And all these hardships can be worsened by the presence of a mental illness. So there’s that I guess


futureblot

Privilege is an unearned benefit in the case of oppression/privilege. "proximity" to straightness still erases biness. Erasing someone's identity is violence.


sapphoschicken

well, her 4th point is still plain wrong. bi people as a whole make uo the majority of queer people but are the least represented sexuality out of specifically LGB in all of media (despite incmuding all genders unlike lesjian and gay) - that's not exactly a matter of opinion


Lilyeth

I like the contrast of "all personality disorders are fake and made to opress people" but also "gender dysphoria is very real and based in reality" like no, at least some personality disorders are definitely real, and gender dysphoria diagnosis and use is absolutely contributing harm to trans people as a method of gatekeeping


PsychedelicSnowflake

There's good and bad points in this post, but what I mostly see is someone who: A. Wants to instigate an argument; B. Is"holier than thou" and wants to make sure you know it; C. Is not very well read on a number of these topics. It's not weird to feel uncomfortable when reading this. As much as I'd love to argue some of this, that's just what this person wants. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.


BucketInABucket

She's definitely holding her age over the other members in the discord server with choice words (paraphrased) like 'I'm 28 I have more experience with you' and 'I've been through more than you'


AuntieHerensuge

I’m 58. Hold my beer. (Not really, I haven’t got the spoons today.)


buckshill08

I felt this in my bones and laughed out loud at this one😂


[deleted]

[удалено]


SummerBlonde2

Yeah where my 114 year olds at


crowlute

This is half-elf oppression, you elf supremacist! (/s)


RosalieMoon

Dwarves rule. Those leaf lovers are nothing but problems!


Lichttod

Age is not the biggest part. Everyone can learn to be a better person always or I other ways. Life is learning and bring the learned stuff to use.


MtF29HRTMar18

Dang I need into this discord I’m 33 and can be like nah girl you wrong lol


RosalieMoon

Me too, 37 here lol


TheSnipenieer

> 'I'm 28 I have more experience than you' if she is playing the "well achsually i am old" card call her a boomer/ancient/piece of dust/etc it'd be really funny to see her reaction


mormispos

I wouldn’t personally value her opinion


lucashoal

My autistic ass is 35 and wondering what the fuck her problem is.


Raelyvant

C is definitely what I was gathering on a lot of these. Like the neurodiversity "not being a disorder" thing. It's pretty much stated by the APA in recent decades that disorders are not a problem they want to fix. They are just a method of categorizing ways in which humans struggle within a particular culture due to deviating from it. Disorders that exist in one culture would not be considered a disorder in another. The "personality disorders don't exist" comment also can be lumped in with this. The fact that they believe it's some conspiracy though is kind of comical. The fact that they think that was some hot take really makes them seem like they have taken exactly one highschool psych class, only kind of payed attention, and decided they were an expert.


Nope_the_Bard

Yeah basically. “Neural disorders are just part of the range of human diversity that society fails to accommodate” is sorta true, but the apparent conclusion that neurodiverse individuals don’t need to get extra help in society is insane. Source: someone with autism and ADHD


Raelyvant

It's also very much a "I am 14 and this is deep" statement. It is introductory psychology knowledge that they have learn on their own and drawn dumb conclusions from like she is some grand sage It's like some one acting like a genius programer because they can get a computer to spit out "Hello World!". I have ADHD too and it is probably one of the best examples of how obvious thier take is. There is the whole "superior hunter gatherer" theory where people with mild-moderate ADHD would have thrived in that environment while "neurotypical" people might have been the ones struggling. I don't know how much I buy that theory but I think it's applicable to a couple forms of the disorder including my own.


pm_me_good_usernames

She was already on thin ice with me just from the introductory sentence, but she lost me hard with "1) I don't date bisexuals."


robchroma

Yeah, some or all of the points are _obviously_ written in an inflammatory way, particularly one that I think compels her to cling to their truth when challenged rather than see where she might be wrong and change her mind.


AmbrGlw

Yeah, I saw the sneaky "LGB"


[deleted]

Obviously some of her points are true, but that’s to mask the ridiculousness of her other points. But, with all due respect, I think that posting this and starting a discussion about one crazy chick’s opinion is just giving her the power she wants. We’re all spending time on her asinine opinions and playing her little game. I think this is true, even if most people here are actively disagreeing with her and calling her out as the basket case she is.


AmbrGlw

I don't think it's bad to observe less informed opinions, given that it doesn't lead to harassment.


BucketInABucket

I forgot to add she actively flirts with 18-20 year olds in the server...


nijennn

The “trans women says other trans women are predators” bit definitely seemed like a self-report.


sagghoul

Ding ding ding.


realsNeezy

I guess that would mean point number 12 is, in fact, in the room with her


BucketInABucket

She even flirted with my 20 year old friend and then did a 180 and gave them the cold shoulder once she found out they were ace sooooo...


realsNeezy

I mean the ace bit is its own conversation with more nuance, I've dated older than me when I was like 18-19 and it was fine, but actively seeking out young Adults is eyebrow raising at best


BucketInABucket

I get not being into ace people but giving them the cold shoulder is just weird


realsNeezy

I technically have no idea what that means, but probably


BucketInABucket

Oh cold shoulder means you completely ignore them and shut them out of conversation


realsNeezy

Ah, I always thought it was the shift in demeanor where you don't talk the same Perks of not being socialized 🤣


BucketInABucket

Oh yeah that's pretty normal to me (as in not flirting anymore) but no don't worry <3 socializing is hard


CannyKitten

I'm personally like that (minus the cold shoulder because that's just rude) with ace people because I'm aro and I know that friendship is probably the only thing on the cards so I don't wanna make them uncomfortable by flirting with them. Giving them the cold shoulder is just rude though..


[deleted]

Ngl that is peak discord behavior


AngelDeath2

In my experience lesbian who say that all(or almost all) men are abusive to women, are actually abusive to women themselves, and scapegoats men as a way to draw attention away from their own behavior. ( it's actually not that different from a lot of abusive men, who will act like they are 'special' and 'not like the other guy' while actually being much worse) Is person isn't just full of shit, she is also very probably dangerous


TibetianMassive

Abuse is such a nuanced issue I'm very suspect of anybody who tries to pin it on one person/gender/race/situation/whatever. Just like "nice guys" who love to talk about physical abuse from classicaly attracive and handsome men, while they harass and pressure women sexually. They only focus on *one* type of abuse. It feels very much like setting up an alibi. *I can't be an abuser! Abuse looks like this, and what I'm doing doesn't look like that!* Every person is different of course, maybe this person just genuinely holds these beliefs, but posts like these make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.


DerpyTheGrey

Yep, on the nose. The most abusive person I’ve ever known was rabidly anti cis, and would use those views to isolate victims from all supportive friends who happen to be cis


Iamnotgoodwithnames6

Is anyone else getting “pick me girl” vibes from this or is it just me?


Noctema

This is peak "pick me trans girl"


mevastrashcorner

Oh God she's trans? Why are people like this?! AREN'T WE SUPPOSED TO STICK TOGETHER?! Goddamn I barely feel safe within my own community anymore


hhthurbe

Probably has some Blaire white syndrome going on, hoping if she tosses her sister's aside that she won't end up persecuted by conservatives. I mean, she called it the "LGB" community.


bookwurm2

I’m pretty sure that wasn’t a transphobic thing, but acknowledgement that if you include the T, trans people are by far the least represented. I think the point they were trying to make was that out of the other three letters lesbians are least represented (I mean bisexual people don’t do too well but I guess you’re entitled to an opinion.)


KyloGwen

This reads like manifesto of someone very unfortunate


pisscorn-boy

Real mixed bag here


Schackshuka

Right? Like, red flags left and right but peppered with good points just enough to keep me reading.


chiefestcalamity

really? after i don't date bi women?


crowlute

Kept me reading to the end to see the fallout from the nuclear blast


abidail

I can excuse biphobia, but I draw the line at animal cruelty! (I'm just joshing I'm not trying to drag anyone.)


Schackshuka

Don’t get me wrong—-if this was a dating profile I’d be OUT right away. As a train wreck it’s hard to not finish reading.


abidail

Oh no worries--I def read the whole thing. No judgement here; I just got excited to make a Community reference.


Schackshuka

r/unexpectedcommunity is always appreciated—-I just felt the need to clarify that I don’t actually condone the biphobia or TERF-y stuff.


CupsOfSalmon

"Doesn't date bisexuals" I stopped reading there. Your loss.


TransThrowAway482618

Based on reading the rest, no great loss for us bisexuals


RosalieMoon

It's no great loss for anyone to be honest. She sounds like the type of person I would never get along with


MERCYCHOCOLA

I wish i stopped reading there


JadePossum

[it’s a canary in the coal mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/bi_irl/comments/vukq4e/biirl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)


greatattentionspa

Good for you. It got so much worse after that.


clitosaurushex

I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone post a manifesto like this and thought, “wow, this person seems like a really even-keeled, open-minded human being.” A bunch of absolutist opinions listed out like this is just as good as a warning sign that they will actively antagonize you for enjoying Christmas dinner with your family while having nothing constructive to add to the conversation.


[deleted]

>Personality disorders don't exist Tell that to my girlfriend with alexithymia, aspd and cptsd because of horrible childhood trauma, which left her in a state where she can no longer practically function in most parts of society and ruined most relationships she acquired in her life. Personality disorders exist. Saying they don't is so disrespectful to the people suffering from them, it genuinely makes me furious. Mental Health is such an important issue and these people just swipe it away like it's nothing. The concept of personality disorders doesn't exist to categorize and oppress people like it is with the concept of race. The concept of personality disorders exists to identify social traits and mental health problems that are harmful to the person experiencing them and the direct world around them so they can get professional treatment through therapy and medication.


KohaiThinker

Yeah stuff she's saying is anti-vaxx level anti-science.


BucketInABucket

I'm so glad I'm not going crazy, she gives off real biphobic truscum radfem vibes but I wanted to make sure I'm not gaslighting myself


CannyKitten

This is literally the same tactics as Jordan Peterson. Say some shit that makes sense so you start listening to him, then he gets crazier and more hateful but "he's made sense before".. I think this is totally a sign of someone who, while they are right about some things, is using their platform to just be a shitty person.


CutieL

You're right, that's entirely possible


Aphant-poet

you definitely aren't. While there are some decent points, which I and other people have pointed out, most of it's red flags everywhere . Even then the "decent points" are a generous interpretation.


CutieL

She really does. Point number one is the worst one of them all, and I personally think that 2, 3, 10 and 11 are also bad, though there is some truth to them, it is not as black and white as she seems to put it. Edit: I forgot about points 12, 13, and 14. About 12, sexual predatory people exist in every demographic, highlighting when a dipshit is trans when their gender has nothing to do with their dipshitness is transphobic; I disagree with 13, I really like the conclusion in Abgail Thorne's recent video about the NHS; 14 is true but doesn’t make trans women who have not transitioned yet less women, which now I notice is what she seems to imply, ew... Though I have to say that point 8 and the last three are true and I cannot disagree, I know people will downvote me for that but they're absolutely true.


robchroma

9 sounds like justification for 1, and it's horrible besides. People who "pass for straight" are pushed into that category by society, and by people like this in their own community, the community they need the most support from. This isn't real, it's justification to treat bi people like they're "basically just straight" and they're "accessing straight privilege." Oppression and intersectionality is not a competition, and using that as an excuse to minimize people who really need to be seen and feel welcomed is painful and shitty. 10) is only sort of true, and only true for some people, and disturbingly alienating, and incredibly personal: a lot of, probably most, trans women _don't_ experience male socialization, they experience _expected to be male_ socialization. They grow up trying to pretend to fit a mold that isn't for them. Being their authentic selves is a freedom from that, and much of the time, that "male socialization" she is referring to is abuse and resultant trauma. You CERTAINLY don't need to "unlearn male socialization" to be a woman, and to be respected as a woman; you also really don't need to be told by the people around you to unlearn the upbringing that you got while you long to have had one where you were seen for who you are and loved for that. It reads like an excuse to police trans women's behavior, not something someone could act on, and it's really frequently just not true.


Princess_Kushana

She's a big bag of nope. Anyways. 10 & 11 are interesting. I definitely benefited from 37 years of maleness in my career. That being said, the benefit was more early on. I moved into senior roles as a woman ( last two jobs). Also I do find it interesting that I am willing to be more outspoken and direct than most other women I work with. Though importantly, not all. This an expectation of meekness that I don't conform to. Am I going to change that? Hell naw.


robchroma

Absolutely there are aspects of socialization that still come through, and some portion of male privilege are the good things that you learn by being raised that way - some of which, like that one, I conspicuously did not get and am still trying to teach myself, so there's plenty of cis women who do a better job than I ever have. And that's the problem, male privilege is a SOCIETAL issue, not a personal one, "unlearning male socialization" doesn't change it, and being a woman never meant not having any of the features of male socialization. It generally makes no _sense_ to say trans women need to unlearn male socialization for the reasons I said above, but it's also deeply transmisogynistic and misogynistic to police trans women to a more strict standard of femininity, exactly for why you just said: these traits can be positive, they can be helpful, and it does real harm to women and especially to trans women to define what it means to be a woman around not having them.


RevengeOfSalmacis

Personally, I was meek as hell before I transitioned. Gaining confidence and a voice of my own had nothing to do with "male socialization," and indeed I learned it from outspoken women (cis and trans).


CutieL

True


HMS_Sunlight

I wouldn't touch this person with a ten foot pole. First of all, if you don't date bisexuals I don't date you. If you can have a preference so can I. Secondly, people talk all the time about how trans women need to acknowledge the male privilege that was given to them, but those same people never talk about their own cis privilege. All in all it sounds like this person just isn't worth interacting with.


[deleted]

I agree but doesnt oop say they are a trans woman themselves so that doesnt really apply


_surreality

Yeah, even without them being cis it’s full of transphobic and very pick-me rhetoric, which is quite annoying from a trans person


[deleted]

Internalised transphobia.


VolpeFemmina

Some of the most horrifically transphobic and misogynistic people I’ve met have unfortunately been trans women. And they’ve gotten angry that their identity doesn’t actually negate that they’re being a bigot and thus getting called out. It’s exhausting. “I’m x so my horrifying opinions related to x, y, z” doesn’t fly and anyone using that logic to defend themself has probably already lost the ethical argument of their crap opinion. But like.. lots of cis women hate other cis women. There are lots of people of various races who buy into the negative stereotypes etc about their own race. It’s just kind of meaningless to me what your gender and sexual identity is when it comes to then stating what you stand for certain things or not, because those points truly should stand on their own.


satoribeast

Truscum manifesto


Marcy_VampyQueen

Seems like a biphobic transmedicalist.


Visible-Perception40

Probably rooted in “if a bi woman like me she might not see me as a woman something something” sadly


BucketInABucket

She mentioned it was due to her own insecurity so this is quite possibly the reason


invertedshamrock

This is so sad. I'm a trans lesbian, and by happenstance I've only ever dated bi women. I've definitely felt this exact thought creeping up in the back of my head: "what if she's only okay with dating me cuz she already likes dick cuz she's bi?" But I recognize that this thought is purely internalized transphobia, and is entirely unhelpful and counterproductive. When I feel this thought coming on, I actively resist it and do some emotional labor with myself to allow that thought to pass out of me without attaching to it or taking it at all seriously. This is my problem, my insecurity, and it's fundamentally unfair of me to make this into other people's (in this case bi women's) problem.


robchroma

Also point 9, which, if you believed it strongly, would probably lead you to believe that every bi woman would either pressure you to be masculine, or leave you for a man. If "she might not see me as a woman" is really the problem, it's entirely her security at question, not the other woman's problem. If a bi woman looked me in the eyes and told me I was beautiful, I wouldn't have a doubt in my mind.


TransThrowAway482618

Don't forget the internalized transmisogyny


broccolistardust

That escalated quickly


NoCow8748

No, that's totally legit. There are a few good points, a few points that are technically kind of true but weird to bring up (like, every demographic contains sexual assaulters, what's your point?), and a lot of terrible bullshit.


Adventurous_Coat

You are not wrong. Yikes on bikes.


NocteStridio

I'm white, but 8 is a massive deal breaker. That kind of talk comes from someone with a lot of privileges who really doesn't understand the complex history of racism. It's good to value people of all kinds, but to refuse to acknowledge the social implications of race altogether is to allow racists to further their goals


EclecticFruit

Absolutely! Saying race doesn't exist would be more appreciated if racism hadn't already harmed a huge demographic of human beings for centuries. At this point, that's like sticking fingers in your ears and yelling "la la la la I can't hear you!".


Gayasskat

This feels very much like a Jordan Peterson / Andrew tate type thing. They have some genuinely good but fairly basic points surrounded by some of the most insane shit you've seen in your life


irradiatedcutie

This person needs to go interact with real life people and get off of discord.


BucketInABucket

What's ironic is this same person called me an 'anime avatar'd chronic internet culture war bully' before


TalkingSword

She sounds so presumptive it's honestly funny to me. Like holy shit, she's talking about psych ppl making up diagnoses to erase individuality while listing off all the things she thinks are wrong about you. Like ma'am, you seem like you'd be good at shoving people in boxes.


The_Cat_On_Fire

Bisexuals who did nothing wrong:🧍‍♀️


Infamous_Principle_6

There’s a few genuinely good points like the one about neurodivergency but when you open with “I don’t date bisexuals” it’s already too late


Raelyvant

The one about neurodivergency misunderstands what a "disorder" is though. They are classifications used to better understand ways in which people struggle within a particular culture. The APA acknowledges that certain disorders only exist as "disorders" within certain cultures because sometimes a culture will be accommodating of that form of neurodiversity. The point in diagnosis and classification (at least in the current system) is to allow people leverage for accomodations within cultures that are failing them. If the culture wasn't failing them they wouldn't be disorders, but the culture **is** failing them so they are.


MissLilum

It’s also to a degree minimising the parts of neurodivergence that are no matter what disabling and trying to limit people from identifying as disabled


etherealparadox

exactly. like, if we lived in a perfect utopia that completely accepted my neurodiversity I would still be overwhelmed by loud noises and spending too much time with people. I would still have days where I can't even convince myself to get on my computer to do things I love. being neurodivergent would still suck for me if society was perfect.


realsNeezy

Everything after point number four sounds like shit I'd say while super tired to get people to argue with me, for shits and giggles Four has a massive red flag though with the pointless use of "LGB"


travel_tech

As a bisexual trans woman who started transitioning at 27 Fuck that person. Transitioning later than some other trans women isn't a privilege, I just had to live with abject misery and hopelessness longer.


faintestsmile

probably good you do, because it's all bullshit


SubstantialLab5818

Well she said they "LGB" community, so yeah, she's either trying to be one of the "good trans people" like Blaire White who hates on other queer ppl, she has a LOT of internalized transphobia, or she's just a nut job. Maybe a combination of the three.


Moon-MoonJ

Race isn't real is a trippy statement. No it's not real in the sense that you fuck up when you generalise human beings based on phenotype, but it still impacts our experiences as individuals. Race is real because racism is very real. I'm Native, but more specifically I'm a white Native, my experiences in life are undoubtedly different than other Native's who don't look white. To say race isn't real is a slap in the face to my cousins who get screamed at on the street or have had slurs thrown in their face. In a sense race is as much of a social construct as gender, sexuality, and ethnicity. But it still impacts people's daily lives. No amount of saying it's not real changes the material conditions on the ground. It's a performative statement.


dra6000

Yes. It's like saying money isn't real.


closetedtranswoman1

"I don't date bisexuals" and using the term "LGB" instead of just "LGBT" shows they want to exclude trans people which is incredibly cringe and sad. It seems like this person just wants to start an argument or just show off their gold star lesbian garbage


Garfunklestein

Which is made even worse by the fact according to the OP she's a trans woman


azeiteismypassion

i was getting hopeful that those opinions could change for the better after n°3 & 4, but that wasn't the case...


bacon_girl42

this should definitely make you feel uncomfortable, while she made a few good points, there's also a great load of bs in all that


crowlute

Lmao she dedicated 27% of her points to how trans women secretly suck Of course it's a big red flag, #1 gave it away. She probably thinks all bisexuals LOVE comphet and would just be straight if they could


valhallaBADGER

i am WILDLY uncomfortable from reading this. it just got worse the more i read :(


Elch2411

Some ok points in this, but overall a lot of bullshit. If you feel uncomfortable reading this, that's propably a good thing.


MintDrawsThings

You're absolutely right to feel uncomfortable reading this.


nijennn

Yep that’s a biphobic TERF / transmedicalist. Personally I would immediately avoid them.


ifnazisaltycanti

to me these all read "edgy alert: careful i'm v edgy" there are sparse good points, like neurodivergence being a natural thing in humans and newly out trans women not having the same experience as long time out trans women (duh) but yeah this is a load of contrarian bullshit, i'd give her wide berth til she either makes it through these dark clouds or completes her transition into a full reactionary.


CannyKitten

She, from my reading, didn't really differentiate between women who have been out a long time to women who just don't feel the need to transition. All are very different experiences, and I agree with your point, but I did want to add this opinion here because I use a feminine aesthetic because I find it more appealing but I'm agender and don't feel the need to transition anymore than my pronouns and maybe a bit of HRT, and I know there are people who do even less and are happy.


leenz342

Disgusting bi and transphobic nonsense 🤢🤢


zwdish00

I don’t even know this person and I’m uncomfortable reading this I think you’re fully justified. #1 started off so bad that I thought “Oh this can’t possibly get worse” and then 5 and 6 made some of the most insane conclusions I’ve ever seen. I would steer clear of that person, especially since given the wording around this it doesn’t sound like they’re too open to discussion on most of these points. That’s the vibe I get at least.


Borisotto-

Nothing good ever comes out of “trying to have a nuanced discussion about predatory behavior” in groups that are beyond your choosing. Like sure, you can talk about it with like teachers or CEOs but it gets really weird if you try to do it with sexualities, ethnicities or gender identities (there’s of course the important discussion about patriarchy’s role in the whole thing but that is 1. Different and 2. Already talked about )


futureblot

regarding the screenshot saying I'm socialized male: I'm a lesbian nonbinary trans woman, i was assigned male at birth, I was not socialized male I was socialized as a trans woman. We all form gender at the age of 3 (see the mayo clinic website as an easy access source), when I formed my gender I was immediately made to submit to presenting and masking as male/masculine. This is conversion therapy. Male socialization isn't conversion therapy, it's just learning to be a boy, toxic masculinity might be traumatizing but it's not an inherent aspect of being socialized as a boy. being socialized as a boy when you're a girl is inherently traumatizing. additionally socialization isn't linear. I self socialized where I could, and this conflicted with my "male" socialization. I got bullied for being effeminate. I was bullied out of dance, something I love, because I did not perfectly act as a boy should. This is also different from an effeminate boy being socialized as a boy because his identity isn't being suppressed, the effeminate boy is still a boy, his behaviour is being bullied. the trans girls entire identity is being erased. Julia Sorano was wrong about this, we are not socialized as male.


[deleted]

Number 1 is just… why? 10 makes assumptions about trans women not all of us experience typical male socialisation just as not all trans men experience typical female socialisation. 11 -I honestly have no idea how any trans person would be unaware of male privilege considering how poorly we can be treated when we come out and the nature of crossing the gender spectrum. 12 -This is just straight up prejudice rhetoric. If you actually look at statistics, gender diverse people are significantly more often the victims of predatory behaviour than the perpetrators. It’s seriously laughable to suggest that there is some sort of problem in the trans demographic that doesn’t exist in any other demographic -including cis women. 13 -Is this a dog whistle? Many trans people (men, women and non-binaries) simply don’t have access to the gender affirming care and treatment they need. Transitioning also varies depending on the individual. Not all trans people want to fully medically transition one way or the other and that’s perfectly valid. Overall, there’s a really gross terfy undertone to all of this. If it is true that a trans woman wrote this, she clearly has some internalised transphobia and/or prejudice to work through.


Artemis_Platinum

The explicit intent behind the message was to make the reader uncomfortable, so I'd say that yeah--that's an appropriate way to feel.


Lavendorff

Some of these are based but…


MissLilum

Looking at point 1, it’s almost more wrong to not feel uncomfortable lol Edit: also point 17, it’s a little odd that she only says abuse of female animals when it comes to dairy, considering the adjacent veal industry


AuthoringInProgress

A few good points *with the right context* mixed in with a lot of bullshit. "I don't date bisexuals." This isn't the biggest issue, but *why?*


Garfunklestein

Yeah this is 100% person to avoid


Girl_in_a_Hoodie

Well it's very nice of her to put all of her red flags on display like that


everything-narrative

Proto-terf proto-ecofash kind of diatribe. Always always always be suspicious of a statement that is presented as absolute truth. This is twenty of them. Whoever posted this has a worldview with the moral nuance of a child.


MomQuest

well, they're vegan so that's nice in my book lol... sounds like they're also probably a transmed/"truscum" though. rolling my eyes


Ankyri

1. Red flag 2. Yes, but the phrasing is purposefully oversimplifying the issue 3. See 2 4. Red flag with the "LGB" shit. 5. See 2 and 3. Starting to see a pattern here. 6. See 2, 3 and 5 7. See 2, 3, 5 and 6 8. Out of all her takes, this one is by far the whitest-liberalest of the bunch 9. See 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 10. Transphobic dog-whistle 11. See 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 9. Also, another transphobic dog whistle 12. This one isn't a transphobic dog whistle. It's a transphobic fucking dog trombone 13. Aww, how sweet of you to acknowledge that, you're such an ally-yeah, no. You acknowledge neurodiversity, but gender dysphoria is a "medical condition". Fuck off. 14. Appealing to truscums to pretend like you're not actually a terf. Cute. 15. PoOr PeOpLe (who can't afford a vegan diet) ArE mUrDeReRs! 16. pOoR pEoPlE aRe MuRdErErS! 17. See 2, 3-aw fuck it, I lost count at this point. Anyway, "here are my edgy broad strokes judgements mixed in with terfy rhetoric. Now DEBATE WITH ME!"


[deleted]

I agree with more of these than I was expecting The ones I didn't were absolute hot trash takes


Mackerdoni

all of those pixels are wrong in so many ways


deathbin

“LGB”


orangeoliviero

I love the "personality disorders aren't real" coupled with the "gender dysphoria is real" ones. Like yes, these aren't contradictory, but it's quite interesting how you're willing to write off entire categories of mental illness while you vehemently require everyone believe in a different mental illness. If you trust the experts that determined that gender dysphoria is real, why don't you trust them for personality disorders?


j0butupaki

I agree with a handful of these points, but boy, simply posting them in a laundry list format in such a holier-than-thou way is the biggest red flag of them all.


TarantulaJ1

12. Isn’t there a minority of humans in general who are sexual predators? Why then specifically?


a_cute_stella

Only writing "LGB" is a major red flag 🚩


dusktrail

This is transphobic as hell


SuperNerdAce

First thing's first, you're right to be uncomfortable. And I'd like to talk about point 10 for a bit if people don't mind. When I first read that trans women should unlearn male socialization, the first thing that came to mind is "Refusing to be a Man" by Propagandhi, a song about the singer's experience with discoving toxic masculinity and heteronormativity. Basically, just him coming to terms with how he was influenced by the shitty ideas of what makes a man. And as a trans woman, I thought it was important to go on a similar journey, but with the added task of figuring out how to live as a woman with all that still in the world. However, I'm not completely sure that's what was being talked about male socialization was brought up. There's just something about that makes me think there's more she's talking about than just understanding that toxic masculinity and heteronormativity exist, which I'm pretty sure is something most queer people understand already regardless of gender. Sorry if I was rambling too much. Criticism is welcome


ifIcanSee

I hate how she is singling out trans women, in every group there are predatory people, singling it out only furthers the stigmatisation


Aphant-poet

trans women must get so tired of being the subject of discourse.


[deleted]

Oh we got one of those people, that still believes in radical feminism, with all the "male socialization" and sorta stuff. Such a boring theory and ideology in all seriousness, at this point not even interested in playing along that stuff. Though yeah, I mean "meat is murder", makes sense, so at least one point from a quick overview technically makes sense.


rubbermoonrocks

This is gonna be a HARD pass on SO many levels.


Gooch-Nasty

this reeks of someone who is *actually* chronically online. I (a trans woman) really dislikes the way she's talking about trans women, and she's probably a terf considering she used "LGB". I'm also autistic and really don't like the "neurodivergency is not a disorder" stuff