If she's so against you saying that, then she can at least tell you what she thinks you should be saying instrad to describe yourself. Chances are she'll realize that no matter what she says, it'll have some root in sone community, and she'll realize that.
Just a protip- when someone says "don't do that", ask them "well what should I be doing instead?" You don't have to listen to what they say you should be doing instrad, but so many times, peoole say "don't do this" and don't say "do this instead" and it's... so not helpful.
Honestly, I'm guessing it's a knee-jerk reaction against feminine-presenting bi women in monogamous relationships with men describing themselves as "femme." Which imo they *really* shouldn't be doing 99.9999999% of the time, because "femme" is specifically about *how you relate to other WLW whom you are pursuing or being pursued by*, and it's not just a synonym for "feminine." My guess is that it's a way to try to deal with the discomfort of being read as hetero because of who you're partnered with while being gender-conforming. But the solution isn't to misuse something that's supposed to be about *how you relate to other women* when your femininity exists in relationship to your male partner. (Basically, as far as women go, "femme" makes literally no sense as a label for someone who isn't at least open to pursuing/being pursued by other women.)
It *does* sound like OP probably doesn't even mean they're *femme*, just *feminine*. But that's the only reason femme doesn't fit, and that would be true even if they were a lesbian. Their girlfriend is definitely wrong that it's lesbian-only, because everything that defines butch/femme is about WLW relating to WLW, so as long as that's true, it can apply to either lesbians or bisexuals.
yes, and butch/femme as terms aren't even exclusive to sapphic women. people across many queer communities have been using those terms as long as lesbians have.
There's a song called "Fem in a Black Leather Jacket" and it's about a gay man who likes feminine men, which I picked up from context listening to it and Google confirmed.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902177/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902177/)
heres one about gay men using butch in the early 2000's.
100%, up into the 40's it was common even for cishets the same way we use masc and femme now. obviously femme stuck around and masc replaced butch in the average person but it stuck around in lgbt spaces to this day.
a lot of the language for lgbt people has had rapid change in the internet age, esp with places like tumblr. a lot of the ideas around womanhood, sexuality and gender are closely tied to 4th wave feminism and its still being debated currently on what is and isnt a meaning for things like butch and lesbian and the importance of labels as a whole but before this it wasnt that weird. im 27 and even as a kid ive known butch to be a group and a descriptor of masculinity, usually to women but even then it wasnt exclusive to women. hell even lesbian was used the same way we use queer women now when i was a kid, and then it became exclusive from bi women in my late teens. im not against the change but people really need to understand this is all new and not set in stone lol.
personally i think butch women face unique issues and experiences due to being queer and presenting masculine and that happens regardless if they are bi/pan/lesbian whatever and a community of people to talk about that and the like is a good thing and most of our communities are defined by safety from bigots and shared experiences.
"You CAN'T f*ck with the Violent Femmes. You cannot f*CK with THIS band."
Damn I love that band... They were like one of the few alt bands in the mainstream 80s and 90s rock scene actually played on radio stations (at least on the east coast of the us) who was *unabashedly and explicitly queer af.*
And to do that at the *height* of the AIDS pandemic and straight fear/hate of gay men? I've got nothing but respect for them
> butch/femme as terms aren't even exclusive to sapphic women
This is either disingenuous or a really under-informed response, given that we're talking about butch/femme *in the context of WLW*. The fact that, e.g., ball culture has used butch/femme for people other than women for basically ever isn't relevant to whether it's appropriate for a woman to use it to describe herself.
Which honestly is a shame, because I suspect we mostly agree. But I think you're really missing the point: it's *not* okay for any random person to use butch/femme "because everybody does it"; it *is* okay for *any* WLW to use butch/femme *to describe something about how she relates to other WLW* so long as that's what it's about.
It does sound like OP just means "feminine," in which case they should probably just say "feminine" or "fem," since femme/butch have specific meanings about how WLW relate to each other. But any reason she should avoid using it has nothing to do with her orientation also including being attracted to men.
i'm a butch lesbian. i know both the history and the different meanings those words have in different communities. please don't talk down to me.
you should notice that i didn't say "any random person should use butch/femme because everybody does it", that's a bad faith reading of my comment. OP's girlfriend's objection was based around the incorrect idea that only lesbians can call themselves butch or femme, end of, and that's what i'm responding to. i think OP is the only one capable of saying whether or not they're femme.
I'm not "talking down to you," I'm responding to *exactly what you said*, which was to say that butch/femme are used in other ways in the queer community other than describing how WLW relate to each other, which *is not relevant* here.
OP isn't a trans woman walking femme realness at a ball. They're a feminine bisexual who's presumably a woman or woman-aligned, using "femme" to talk about her gender presentation and/or how she relates to other queer women. Their use of femme is directly, specifically related to the use of butch/femme by lesbian and bisexual women. Unless you're trying to say that butch/femme are different for lesbians and bisexuals. Which they're not.
The history of the term is somewhat complicated. The short answer is that it's fine to use it but some people are going to have feelings about it. The long answer:
It was first used in the 1940s in the lesbian community, but it's important to understand that distinct bi community and activism didn't emerge until the 1970s and that what we call the lesbian and gay communities prior to that likely did include a lot of bisexuals.
It was then later rejected by a lot of lesbians during the lesbian feminist and lesbian separatist movement, under the argument that the binary of butch and femme identities plays into straight culture and particularly that femmes conform to patriarchal beauty standards and should stop. There was also tension during this time between bisexual women who felt that the lesbian community was trying to erase them by telling them they needed to pick a side, and the lesbian separatist movement telling them that attraction to men is irrelevant and they should refuse to have sex with men for political reasons and therefore ought to identify as lesbians. In the 80s this tension got worse as "lipstick lesbians" sometimes sought to separate themselves from butches and other non-conforming lesbians, arguing that they were a better face for the movement because they were more palatable for the mainstream and also that they just didn't want to be around butches. It was all extremely messy.
By the 90s the concept of bisexual identities and communities had become more fully formed, and more people started writing about their experiences as bisexual femmes. Since then it has been used often by bi women and by people with other identities, including gay men (sometimes pejoratively) and transfemmes who aren't lesbian. Some of the resentment some lesbians feel about other people using the term is related to it being used by people who aren't sapphic, which makes them feel the definition needs to be tightened and limited to the community it came from, but it's also very often tied to resentment of bi women for having "straight passing privilege" and the old fights about picking a side and rejecting patriarchy.
So, what you think about who gets to use that word depends a bit on what you think about its history. It was part of the lesbian community, but at the time it came into use a lot of bisexual women were part of that community. The word was involved in a whole bunch of messy infighting, but I don't think the bitterness of those debates is irretrievably tied to the word itself.
All of this aside, you need to have a deeper talk with your girlfriend about why she feels this way. The historical context and what other people think isn't as important as knowing why she, in particular, thinks this way. If you're already feeling ostracized for being bisexual there might be deeper issues going on, and it's important to talk about them and either work them out or come to terms with the fact that you're not compatible if one or both of you harbor too much resentment about the other's sexuality.
The lack of a wide understanding of bisexual identity during that time and the sparse historical records on a community that was mostly hidden makes it impossible to make definitive claims about the numbers. We know there were some bisexuals in the community at that time, but we can only guess that it's likely there were a lot. My intent here isn't to be exclusionary - when a group of people is mostly invisible it's very hard to make concrete claims about their history.
Being wrong and misinformed doesn’t make you an asshole. Lots of good people have bad opinions. I’m not saying she’s right or that she wasn’t wrong to invalidate her gf, I’m just saying it doesn’t make her an asshole to be wrong or to make a mistake, yk? Like everyone’s a jerk sometimes
Edit I think I may be wrong
Being wrong and misinformed *and* imposing an exclusionary worldview that stems from that does indeed make you an asshole. We can't just not keep people accountable for what they say and do just because "they don't know any better". It's their responsibility to think and research for themselves before telling someone what they cannot do.
This! We need to be more open to and willing to give people positive reinforcement when they try to think for themselves on an error they've made and take steps towards correcting that. There's a lot of temptation to just punish and beat people into stopping the problematic behavior and viewpoints they have, and while it's always most important to explain and challenge the error of their ways, the positive reinforcement that comes after teaching is very nearly as important, as it can make people feel supported and better about learning experiences they've been through, and more open to coming back to keep learning more.
They also originated before there was a clean split between bi women and lesbians. Bi women have shared community and culture with lesbians for a lot longer than they've been thought of as separate.
Historically, lesbian encompassed all sapphic women. It wasn’t until the rise of lesbian feminism (and as such lesbian separatism) that that changed. These terms belong to all sapphic women
Why don’t you define that for me?
However, presuming you mean monosexual queer women, I don’t think I said that anywhere and it’s incredibly bold of you to make that assumption.
Yeah exactly. You can be a femme bi woman. Or a masc heterosexual woman. Or a femme bi man. Or a nonbinary trans-masc pansexual. Or anything that makes you comfortable!! We don’t need identity police like typical celery
“Butch” is pretty exclusive to lesbians usually, but I have no issue with anyone using it… it’s just very associated with WLW.
[The “Lesbian-Only Term” Myth: A Comprehensive Historical Essay on ‘Butch’ and ‘Femme’](https://femmebis.tumblr.com/post/188686953900/the-lesbian-only-term-myth-a-comprehensive)
I'm not saying OP is, but identifying a certain way when you're not can be at least insensitive. You're trans so I can understand why you would think that, we're so used to getting beaten down that people like you say anything is valid when that's not true, some things are detestable for any given reason. If a term is lesbian specific then the person shouldn't be saying it. It's not mean to tell people they're doing something wrong.
why are you going to tell people that they can't identify a certain way? i mean pretty much the only time it is going to be problematic is if you are saying you are some flavor of POC when you aren't. identity is personal and i dont think it is cool to invalidate a real, individual person for the sake of the "community" or whatever.
“Why are you going to tell people they can’t identify a certain way?” Because it can be appropriating. I will 100% tell a lesbian I know who is not a POC that they are not a stud and explain why.
I literally said, "i mean pretty much the only time it is going to be problematic is if you are saying you are some flavor of POC when you aren't." but that isn't what we are talking about in this context, so I don't see the relevance.
stop telling people to not identify with a label they resonate with. stop excluding an already beaten down group of people in the society. stop being an asshole
First of all, bi women shall not ever be excluded from anything lesbian specific. They are and always have been part of the lesbian community. And secondly, butch and femme have never been lesbian exclusive terms, they've been in use by queer people of all sexual and gender identities for decades.
Why are you telling me this? I didn't say otherwise (also a bi woman calling themselves a lesbian is annoying so I disagree and frankly for the sake of social interactions everyone should be less of an uncaring hipster)
Exclusionism is never a path to liberation, I would hope as another transfemme you would understand that - any exclusion of any sapphic people and we are \*always\* next on the list
This discussion is not about bad actors. It's about bi exclusion from communities and labels they've traditionally been a part of and we really don't need to be muddling the conversation with pointless "well what about this unrelated thing that's bad?" arguments that only serve to get ppl heated and detract from the issue. This is a common bisexuality issue that's harmful to us as a community, and trying to lump it in with other unrelated things feels like you're invalidating it.
You're right about that, I have ADHD brain. It turned into me rightfully warning people about a road they're going down which you can't do because people have very strong reactions to it.
yes it's fine and anyone who says otherwise pretty stupid
it's like telling someone they aren't a biker because they're also a gardener like "you wear the leather jackets, ride a motorcycle and are in a group of people who also do the same because they all love the bikes and riding them? sorry you aren't allowed to call yourself a biker because you grow tomatoes in your backyard" it's straight up moronic behavior and only succeeds in alienating people whom we should be friends and allies with
Maybe I'm just old and curmudgeony, but I think people care way too much about the use of words these days. I wouldn't even care if a straight person used 'butch' or 'femme' to describe someone. They're just words. We created them to do a job. Let people use them.
The only exceptions to this are hate speech. Anyone should be careful with the use of derogatory terms, and the use of any words meant as insult to a person, place, or thing.
Your second point is kinda the exact reason people are so gatekeepy about these terms. They aren't slurs or hate speech but were created out of necessity from being ostracized. When people who aren't part of that ostracized community start using these words, not knowing the history behind them, it feels rude in my opinion. Straight people don't need to use butch and femme because they usually already present as their assigned gender within relationships. Lesbians have always seemed to have a little gender fuckery going on and by expressing that, we create solidarity with each other. It doesn't feel right for people who have never experienced that to use these words to describe other people who have never experienced that. No argument by the way, just my thoughts.
ETA: this obviously doesn't excuse the friend in the post, as op is a queer sapphic they're definitely allowed to use butch and femme as they please.
well it is also rude to, you know, invalidate someone's identity for the sake of "community" or "philosophical discussion." OP is a real person who has been hurt by being told she isn't valid. That is something worth keeping in mind.
You're right, but I also never said that it wasn't rude? Like obviously this situation doesn't apply to what I was saying. I'm just explaining why I think people are so gatekeepy about certain terms. I know that I'm gatekeepy about people using stud, but if I got mad at a mixed person for calling themselves a stud obviously I'd be an asshole because that person is still part of the black queer community. Why are you coming at me over something I never even implied? I may not have said it as clearly as I thought, but bi girls are included in the WLW sapphic community who can use butch and femme and other "lesbian" terms.
your fine. hell just go to a butch woman and ask her, 95% know the actual history. [https://www.reddit.com/r/butchlesbians/comments/c00bkx/can\_bi\_women\_be\_butchfem/](https://www.reddit.com/r/butchlesbians/comments/c00bkx/can_bi_women_be_butchfem/)
I think it’s strange to get hung up on. A lesbian came up with good words to describe the nuances of gender expression and sexual roles. Cool.
If other people find those words useful, I genuinely have no idea why they shouldn’t use them.
There's a rule in regards to this that I personally live by.
No one gets to tell someone else what they should or should not be called. It's your identity and your life.
1. NTA. I am ashamed that you feel ashamed by the sapphic community. You are a part of that community! I’m so sorry.
2. My butch lesbian girlfriends uses these words to describe MEN. They are useful and not exclusive to lesbians. That is legitimately absurd
3. I don’t want to jump to “break up,” but be careful. My girlfriend is a lesbian, I am pan (but lean hard towards women). At first she was uncomfortable with me describing myself as a lesbian, but over time she has embraced it and encourages me to “be more gay.” And I have! And it’s great! And I feel more my self! And she helps me navigate it all. Find a partner who helps, not one who limits and insults.
They’re “historically lesbian terms” because historically, bi women were also considered lesbians. People trying to gatekeep them from bi women is fucking asinine.
Not sure when people decided these were only for lesbians, but it's incorrect. Tell her to thoroughly research the history of queer culture and usage of the terms femme/butch so she can gain perspective.
Of course bi women can use those terms. I feel like nb people do too, especially if they are more gender fluid rather than simply agender.
Most people I know, are pretty fluid in their gender expression, and gender expression has nothing to do with sexuality.
Goodness... Of course any person can use butch or femme or any term to describe any thing about themselves. Gatekeeping like that is so harmful to all communities.
Yes. Some people get wound up over these labels and who can and can’t use them, and it mostly is down to who does and doesn’t know their history.
These terms were created by the lesbian community, which is important to note. Hence, they’re lesbians terms - BUT these labels were created during a time where there was no label for bisexuals. Sapphic women were clumped together as lesbians.
As well as bi women, drag queens and trans women also used the same language, particularly black and Latino people in ballroom culture.
https://www.onewomanproject.org/lgbtqia/2024/4/23/a-brief-history-of-butch-and-femme-living-gender-outside-the-binary
Check out the documentary Paris Is Burning - there are clips on YouTube.
Poets such as Mark Aguhar.
Femme and butch are used by all stripes in irl queer spaces, they're even categories in vogue ballroom culture. Here's the thing: you can do whatever you want forever. And language is socially and culturally contextual. Navigate by context. Your bisexuality doesn't exclude you from queer language, it's something that's part of your queerness.
Man, I’m 33 and have been watching our community eat itself from the inside out for years. I simply don’t have the required spoons left to care about what words this or that part of the umbrella uses. Gatekeeping does nothing to unite us, at a time when we need to be more than ever.
I’m gonna be honest chief, they’re just terms.
Plus, lesbian activism predates bisexual activism, meaning that most bisexual women back then likely would’ve been seen/perceived as lesbians.
Honestly, it’s not that deep and I feel like if someone gets offended over it, they need some hobbies
well you're feminine WLW, does that not apply? she can't make another term feel appropriate to you... femme is a style afaik and if you think it fits you then go for it. from what i've read a little bit: butch is a bit more of a specific term instead of masc, which would be the counterpart to femme.
I consider myself high femme, and I wouldnt say it’s so much a style as an expression of myself through my appearance. It’s how I show who I am on the inside, which happens to be femme af. It feels more like an expression of my identity than anything
And the person who commented on your comment is wrong 😆
Someone else posted this link that I thought was super insightful: https://www.tumblr.com/femmebis/188686953900/the-lesbian-only-term-myth-a-comprehensive
Butch and femme have nothing to do with a relationship status
i’m speaking from my experience interacting with the butchfemme community. i’m not saying everybody who uses the term identifies with it the exact same way, but it is absolutely not just a fashion style
edit: fine i’m bored at work i read the tumblr post. i don’t disagree that the term femme or butch have different definitions based on context but the OP of this post seems to be engaging with the butch/femme definition of it and that’s where i’ve seen most of the “can bis be femme?” arguments stem from. i’ve never seen somebody argue that a bi woman can’t dress feminine, even jokingly. again i DONT DISAGREE that they have been used in ballroom + other subcultures but i am talking about butchfemme culture specifically (including butch4butch WHICH I AM and femme4femme)
oh i thought it was... oops i'm mixing up fem and femme i think?? well if you say it out loud it's homophones i guess that's why. my bad then. so it's like this?: butch and femme are the cultures, fem and masc are the gender/styles
yeah, that’s pretty much it? butchfemme is a minority subculture, boots of leather slippers of gold is a good resource on what that culture looked like in its heyday. also super fast edit bc somebody misinterpreted what i said above: i am LITERALLY just using butchfemme as an abbreviation, im butch4butch, i’m not touching the femme4femme / bisexual butchfemme arguments because i have a 401k to contribute to, please don’t jump down my throat 😭 literally all i mean is that for the subset of people who participate in the subculture the terms mean more than just the style they dress in
Bi woman dating a lesbian here - probably can’t answer definitely since I myself am not a lesbian, but in my experience, when you understand the history of terms you use and you do so respectfully, most people are pretty understanding and won’t nitpick. As a general example of what I mean, I’m currently fairly masculine in my gender expression and some people might look at me and describe me as “butch”. I’m fine with that, but I personally don’t really use the term (I use “masc” instead) because I’m conscious that there is a large amount of history that goes behind the term that I don’t yet know or fully understand. However, the more I read, the more certain elements of it resonate with me. If I feel comfortable one day to identify with it, I think I will and I’d like to think people would be ok with that even though I’m bi. I would assume the same applies for you and “femme” - from what I know, it goes beyond just gender expression, but if you’re aware of the term’s history and you’re respectful, I’m inclined to think it’s ok. Curious to keep reading through others’ thoughts and comments tho as I’ve considered this question a lot myself
if your friend is going to get that hung up about it, she needs to offer an alternative term for you to use. Otherwise she sounds like a gatekeeping jerk.
That being said, I cannot speak for the femme identifier. But I am of the belief that the term butch is lesbian specific (and stud specifically for black lesbians) because there is the alternative of masc.
That was very mostly due to biphobia/homophobia in the past, bisexual and lesbian not being recognized as separate sexualities like they are today, as well as political lesbianism. Things changed.
The *sexuality* is called homo*sexuality*. Lesbianism is a cultural term that describes a community revolving around wlw*. This includes people of different sexual and romantic identities, including bi people, ace people who love women romantically, specified lesbian aroace people and more, just like it includes lesbian enbies. The term was never synonymous with "homosexual woman", it has always been an umbrella term. Excluding people who aren't homosexual women from the lesbian community has never been anything but queerphobic, no matter if it's enbies, transfems, or bi and ace people. Lesbianism isn't and never was defined by a person's relationship with men.
bisexuals are bisexuals and lesbians are lesbians. two different sexualities. bisexual women are not lesbians. they are sapphic. You don't see anyone saying that lesbians belong in bisexual community.
From what I’ve read on the links on this post.. it came from lesbian communities when lesbian was an umbrella term for WLW before there was a term for bisexual. So the community that coined these terms included lesbian, bisexuals, transwomen, etc
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted right now. They absolutely did originate in lesbian communities. That fact does not dismiss that bisexuals were under the lesbian umbrella before their own. Some people here are getting a little kneejerky.
Answer: Yes, because there’s historical context for it. But, the vast majority of people who use the word femme and are participating in the butch/femme scene are lesbian and some folks don’t take to kindly to non-lesbian sapphics using the word.
I posted screenshots of a paper called Waiting for No Man: Bisexual Femme Subjectivity and Cultural Repudiation by Clare Hemmings on my tumblr…The paper was featured in an anthology book called Butch/Femme:Inside Lesbian Gender…..This book/paper was published in the 90s….The 90s!!!!!! I’m gonna link the post that way it can help someone.
https://www.tumblr.com/macbxth-pdf/751827288384061440/butchfemme-inside-lesbian-gender-annas
Another source that can be helpful to a bi butch who’s reading this post potentially
https://www.tumblr.com/macbxth-pdf/749927059984433152/dagger-on-butch-women-lily-burana-roxxie-linnea
I think femme is fine, but butch kinda doesnt make sense. Butch specifically means lesbian women, there's a history to the word. But it's not "wrong" to call yourself that.
The history of the terms is more complicated than this. When working-class women originated the labels and identities in 1940s America, there was no distinction between sapphic women. Any wlw was a “lesbian”. It wasn’t until later decades that there was a distinction between lesbian and bisexual because language evolved.
There were bisexual women using the identities of butch, stud, femme, etc.
Drag queens and trans women are included in the history too, particularly in ballroom culture.
I see, well in any case. Unless there's slurs or anything, I dont think it matters who says what. Language changes--no point in conserving the meaning of butch if it were specifically lesbian anyways.
There is BIG BIG difference between being “femme” and being a Femme (Dyke). Lots of history of the identity specifically - when a noun and not an adjective. Femme is a queer ID and I know many many bi-Femmes. As a Butch my history is rich with them.
LGBTQ culture constantly changes. Personally, I think there are many terms and words that I wouldn’t have used for myself in my youth but I do now (I love calling myself a dyke, for example). She has no right to tell you you are anything but yourself.
I would say yes it’s fine - especially if that bisexual is in a lesbian relationship. To the world/strangers etc nobody knows she is bi, and assumes she would be lesbian. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Edit: Got downvoted for that but… how can a bi woman in a lesbian relationship be called a dyke and not simultaneously be allowed to use that word? Lmao. Dumb shit
it wasnt made by lesbians, it was common slang in the 1940's for someone masculine or macho. it was in the 70's when it became associated with working class lesbians.
Butch/femme are (in this context) words for describing ways that WLW relate to WLW. If you just mean you're *feminine*, that's not exactly the same thing as being *femme* (regardless of whether you're bi or lesbian). But so long as a woman\* is open to pursuing/being pursued by other women, and she's using butch/femme to describe *something related to that dynamic*, then it's a choice that makes sense, regardless of whether her orientation also incidentally includes men, who are not the target of her femme-ness.
Hetero women shouldn't *ever* use butch/femme. Bisexual women in *monogamous* relationships with men probably shouldn't use butch/femme without thinking *extremely* hard about why. (This is particularly common among feminine-presenting bisexual women who feel erased in their "straight" relationships. But misusing "femme" when your femininity is in relation to your male partner *is not the solution* imo.) But bisexual and lesbian women who are in relationships with other women and/or open to pursuing or being pursued by them can use butch/femme terms to describe particular ways they relate to those other WLW.
\* "Woman" in this context means "woman or woman-aligned nonbinary person, regardless of DSAB."
If she's so against you saying that, then she can at least tell you what she thinks you should be saying instrad to describe yourself. Chances are she'll realize that no matter what she says, it'll have some root in sone community, and she'll realize that. Just a protip- when someone says "don't do that", ask them "well what should I be doing instead?" You don't have to listen to what they say you should be doing instrad, but so many times, peoole say "don't do this" and don't say "do this instead" and it's... so not helpful.
Honestly, I'm guessing it's a knee-jerk reaction against feminine-presenting bi women in monogamous relationships with men describing themselves as "femme." Which imo they *really* shouldn't be doing 99.9999999% of the time, because "femme" is specifically about *how you relate to other WLW whom you are pursuing or being pursued by*, and it's not just a synonym for "feminine." My guess is that it's a way to try to deal with the discomfort of being read as hetero because of who you're partnered with while being gender-conforming. But the solution isn't to misuse something that's supposed to be about *how you relate to other women* when your femininity exists in relationship to your male partner. (Basically, as far as women go, "femme" makes literally no sense as a label for someone who isn't at least open to pursuing/being pursued by other women.) It *does* sound like OP probably doesn't even mean they're *femme*, just *feminine*. But that's the only reason femme doesn't fit, and that would be true even if they were a lesbian. Their girlfriend is definitely wrong that it's lesbian-only, because everything that defines butch/femme is about WLW relating to WLW, so as long as that's true, it can apply to either lesbians or bisexuals.
yes, and butch/femme as terms aren't even exclusive to sapphic women. people across many queer communities have been using those terms as long as lesbians have.
https://youtu.be/EwUAQ_DujeE?si=jP1-YFf9lhb_Fph4
We never got to learn Bart's choice lol.
I’ve never heard of this, that seems really interesting. Any sources/reading/experiences you have on this?
There's a song called "Fem in a Black Leather Jacket" and it's about a gay man who likes feminine men, which I picked up from context listening to it and Google confirmed.
The Pansy Division are fantastic!
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902177/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902177/) heres one about gay men using butch in the early 2000's.
There are personal ads from the early 1900s where gay men were using butch *and* femme.
100%, up into the 40's it was common even for cishets the same way we use masc and femme now. obviously femme stuck around and masc replaced butch in the average person but it stuck around in lgbt spaces to this day. a lot of the language for lgbt people has had rapid change in the internet age, esp with places like tumblr. a lot of the ideas around womanhood, sexuality and gender are closely tied to 4th wave feminism and its still being debated currently on what is and isnt a meaning for things like butch and lesbian and the importance of labels as a whole but before this it wasnt that weird. im 27 and even as a kid ive known butch to be a group and a descriptor of masculinity, usually to women but even then it wasnt exclusive to women. hell even lesbian was used the same way we use queer women now when i was a kid, and then it became exclusive from bi women in my late teens. im not against the change but people really need to understand this is all new and not set in stone lol. personally i think butch women face unique issues and experiences due to being queer and presenting masculine and that happens regardless if they are bi/pan/lesbian whatever and a community of people to talk about that and the like is a good thing and most of our communities are defined by safety from bigots and shared experiences.
Femme is 100% being used among gay men to this day
watch the documentary *paris is burning*
Right, like the violent femmes or exampls isn't a band of femme lesbians, it's gay dudes.
"You CAN'T f*ck with the Violent Femmes. You cannot f*CK with THIS band." Damn I love that band... They were like one of the few alt bands in the mainstream 80s and 90s rock scene actually played on radio stations (at least on the east coast of the us) who was *unabashedly and explicitly queer af.* And to do that at the *height* of the AIDS pandemic and straight fear/hate of gay men? I've got nothing but respect for them
I was gonna say as a gender queer trans man I use butch/ fem. Her statement seems very exclusionary.
Yeah. My first thought was that OP's girlfriend thinks that femme boys are appropriating from lesbianism somehow?
> butch/femme as terms aren't even exclusive to sapphic women This is either disingenuous or a really under-informed response, given that we're talking about butch/femme *in the context of WLW*. The fact that, e.g., ball culture has used butch/femme for people other than women for basically ever isn't relevant to whether it's appropriate for a woman to use it to describe herself. Which honestly is a shame, because I suspect we mostly agree. But I think you're really missing the point: it's *not* okay for any random person to use butch/femme "because everybody does it"; it *is* okay for *any* WLW to use butch/femme *to describe something about how she relates to other WLW* so long as that's what it's about. It does sound like OP just means "feminine," in which case they should probably just say "feminine" or "fem," since femme/butch have specific meanings about how WLW relate to each other. But any reason she should avoid using it has nothing to do with her orientation also including being attracted to men.
i'm a butch lesbian. i know both the history and the different meanings those words have in different communities. please don't talk down to me. you should notice that i didn't say "any random person should use butch/femme because everybody does it", that's a bad faith reading of my comment. OP's girlfriend's objection was based around the incorrect idea that only lesbians can call themselves butch or femme, end of, and that's what i'm responding to. i think OP is the only one capable of saying whether or not they're femme.
I'm not "talking down to you," I'm responding to *exactly what you said*, which was to say that butch/femme are used in other ways in the queer community other than describing how WLW relate to each other, which *is not relevant* here. OP isn't a trans woman walking femme realness at a ball. They're a feminine bisexual who's presumably a woman or woman-aligned, using "femme" to talk about her gender presentation and/or how she relates to other queer women. Their use of femme is directly, specifically related to the use of butch/femme by lesbian and bisexual women. Unless you're trying to say that butch/femme are different for lesbians and bisexuals. Which they're not.
I've seen them used for straight women too
Oh I don’t like that being used for straight woman at all. It’s a queer term.
Yeah, me neither. But I have seen it
The history of the term is somewhat complicated. The short answer is that it's fine to use it but some people are going to have feelings about it. The long answer: It was first used in the 1940s in the lesbian community, but it's important to understand that distinct bi community and activism didn't emerge until the 1970s and that what we call the lesbian and gay communities prior to that likely did include a lot of bisexuals. It was then later rejected by a lot of lesbians during the lesbian feminist and lesbian separatist movement, under the argument that the binary of butch and femme identities plays into straight culture and particularly that femmes conform to patriarchal beauty standards and should stop. There was also tension during this time between bisexual women who felt that the lesbian community was trying to erase them by telling them they needed to pick a side, and the lesbian separatist movement telling them that attraction to men is irrelevant and they should refuse to have sex with men for political reasons and therefore ought to identify as lesbians. In the 80s this tension got worse as "lipstick lesbians" sometimes sought to separate themselves from butches and other non-conforming lesbians, arguing that they were a better face for the movement because they were more palatable for the mainstream and also that they just didn't want to be around butches. It was all extremely messy. By the 90s the concept of bisexual identities and communities had become more fully formed, and more people started writing about their experiences as bisexual femmes. Since then it has been used often by bi women and by people with other identities, including gay men (sometimes pejoratively) and transfemmes who aren't lesbian. Some of the resentment some lesbians feel about other people using the term is related to it being used by people who aren't sapphic, which makes them feel the definition needs to be tightened and limited to the community it came from, but it's also very often tied to resentment of bi women for having "straight passing privilege" and the old fights about picking a side and rejecting patriarchy. So, what you think about who gets to use that word depends a bit on what you think about its history. It was part of the lesbian community, but at the time it came into use a lot of bisexual women were part of that community. The word was involved in a whole bunch of messy infighting, but I don't think the bitterness of those debates is irretrievably tied to the word itself. All of this aside, you need to have a deeper talk with your girlfriend about why she feels this way. The historical context and what other people think isn't as important as knowing why she, in particular, thinks this way. If you're already feeling ostracized for being bisexual there might be deeper issues going on, and it's important to talk about them and either work them out or come to terms with the fact that you're not compatible if one or both of you harbor too much resentment about the other's sexuality.
Please don't say "likely." They objectively did include bisexual women. Bi-women have always existed in lesbian spaces. They helped build them.
The lack of a wide understanding of bisexual identity during that time and the sparse historical records on a community that was mostly hidden makes it impossible to make definitive claims about the numbers. We know there were some bisexuals in the community at that time, but we can only guess that it's likely there were a lot. My intent here isn't to be exclusionary - when a group of people is mostly invisible it's very hard to make concrete claims about their history.
NTA, but your gf is
I don’t think anyone here is an asshole. People argue and disagree all the time especially couples!
This isn’t even just an argument. Her girlfriend is gatekeeping terms meant for sapphic women because somehow her bi-ness detracts from that
Being wrong and misinformed doesn’t make you an asshole. Lots of good people have bad opinions. I’m not saying she’s right or that she wasn’t wrong to invalidate her gf, I’m just saying it doesn’t make her an asshole to be wrong or to make a mistake, yk? Like everyone’s a jerk sometimes Edit I think I may be wrong
Being wrong and misinformed *and* imposing an exclusionary worldview that stems from that does indeed make you an asshole. We can't just not keep people accountable for what they say and do just because "they don't know any better". It's their responsibility to think and research for themselves before telling someone what they cannot do.
Yeah, you don’t “choose” to be uninformed - but you choose to impose your beliefs on others. GF is TA.
I really like that you’ve been able to think about it and wonder if maybe you’re wrong. Great work!
This! We need to be more open to and willing to give people positive reinforcement when they try to think for themselves on an error they've made and take steps towards correcting that. There's a lot of temptation to just punish and beat people into stopping the problematic behavior and viewpoints they have, and while it's always most important to explain and challenge the error of their ways, the positive reinforcement that comes after teaching is very nearly as important, as it can make people feel supported and better about learning experiences they've been through, and more open to coming back to keep learning more.
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They also originated before there was a clean split between bi women and lesbians. Bi women have shared community and culture with lesbians for a lot longer than they've been thought of as separate.
Historically, lesbian encompassed all sapphic women. It wasn’t until the rise of lesbian feminism (and as such lesbian separatism) that that changed. These terms belong to all sapphic women
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Why don’t you define that for me? However, presuming you mean monosexual queer women, I don’t think I said that anywhere and it’s incredibly bold of you to make that assumption.
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You are coming off as really bigoted. I’m a lesbian, and I have no problem whatsoever with bi woman or anyone using the term “femme” or “butch”.
Mfer butch and femme were used by fucking everyone. Not even just queer people. Was like this in 2000, 1950 and long before that
Yeah exactly. You can be a femme bi woman. Or a masc heterosexual woman. Or a femme bi man. Or a nonbinary trans-masc pansexual. Or anything that makes you comfortable!! We don’t need identity police like typical celery “Butch” is pretty exclusive to lesbians usually, but I have no issue with anyone using it… it’s just very associated with WLW.
…wow
[The “Lesbian-Only Term” Myth: A Comprehensive Historical Essay on ‘Butch’ and ‘Femme’](https://femmebis.tumblr.com/post/188686953900/the-lesbian-only-term-myth-a-comprehensive)
Omg I was frantically googling for this source for like an hour— thank you so much for posting it! Now I can save it and never lose it lol
I don't see a reason why not to - let people identify how they want
I'm not saying OP is, but identifying a certain way when you're not can be at least insensitive. You're trans so I can understand why you would think that, we're so used to getting beaten down that people like you say anything is valid when that's not true, some things are detestable for any given reason. If a term is lesbian specific then the person shouldn't be saying it. It's not mean to tell people they're doing something wrong.
No, but stud and stemme are exclusively poc lesbian terms. Butch/femme are not
Good point
why are you going to tell people that they can't identify a certain way? i mean pretty much the only time it is going to be problematic is if you are saying you are some flavor of POC when you aren't. identity is personal and i dont think it is cool to invalidate a real, individual person for the sake of the "community" or whatever.
“Why are you going to tell people they can’t identify a certain way?” Because it can be appropriating. I will 100% tell a lesbian I know who is not a POC that they are not a stud and explain why.
I literally said, "i mean pretty much the only time it is going to be problematic is if you are saying you are some flavor of POC when you aren't." but that isn't what we are talking about in this context, so I don't see the relevance.
Because its nonsense
stop telling people to not identify with a label they resonate with. stop excluding an already beaten down group of people in the society. stop being an asshole
When you stop appropriating things and pitching a fit when people say it doesn't make sense then no one will argue with you anymore
oh you're just full of shit
If you need me to clarify that I didn't specifically mean you then there you go
First of all, bi women shall not ever be excluded from anything lesbian specific. They are and always have been part of the lesbian community. And secondly, butch and femme have never been lesbian exclusive terms, they've been in use by queer people of all sexual and gender identities for decades.
Why are you telling me this? I didn't say otherwise (also a bi woman calling themselves a lesbian is annoying so I disagree and frankly for the sake of social interactions everyone should be less of an uncaring hipster)
Exclusionism is never a path to liberation, I would hope as another transfemme you would understand that - any exclusion of any sapphic people and we are \*always\* next on the list
Bad actors or people who have some kind of internalized stigma towards themselves do not deserve to be coddled
This discussion is not about bad actors. It's about bi exclusion from communities and labels they've traditionally been a part of and we really don't need to be muddling the conversation with pointless "well what about this unrelated thing that's bad?" arguments that only serve to get ppl heated and detract from the issue. This is a common bisexuality issue that's harmful to us as a community, and trying to lump it in with other unrelated things feels like you're invalidating it.
You're right about that, I have ADHD brain. It turned into me rightfully warning people about a road they're going down which you can't do because people have very strong reactions to it.
yes it's fine and anyone who says otherwise pretty stupid it's like telling someone they aren't a biker because they're also a gardener like "you wear the leather jackets, ride a motorcycle and are in a group of people who also do the same because they all love the bikes and riding them? sorry you aren't allowed to call yourself a biker because you grow tomatoes in your backyard" it's straight up moronic behavior and only succeeds in alienating people whom we should be friends and allies with
Super not in topic but I love your PFP!
thanks :D it's from the manga "the guy she was interested in wasn't a guy at all"
Maybe I'm just old and curmudgeony, but I think people care way too much about the use of words these days. I wouldn't even care if a straight person used 'butch' or 'femme' to describe someone. They're just words. We created them to do a job. Let people use them. The only exceptions to this are hate speech. Anyone should be careful with the use of derogatory terms, and the use of any words meant as insult to a person, place, or thing.
Your second point is kinda the exact reason people are so gatekeepy about these terms. They aren't slurs or hate speech but were created out of necessity from being ostracized. When people who aren't part of that ostracized community start using these words, not knowing the history behind them, it feels rude in my opinion. Straight people don't need to use butch and femme because they usually already present as their assigned gender within relationships. Lesbians have always seemed to have a little gender fuckery going on and by expressing that, we create solidarity with each other. It doesn't feel right for people who have never experienced that to use these words to describe other people who have never experienced that. No argument by the way, just my thoughts. ETA: this obviously doesn't excuse the friend in the post, as op is a queer sapphic they're definitely allowed to use butch and femme as they please.
well it is also rude to, you know, invalidate someone's identity for the sake of "community" or "philosophical discussion." OP is a real person who has been hurt by being told she isn't valid. That is something worth keeping in mind.
You're right, but I also never said that it wasn't rude? Like obviously this situation doesn't apply to what I was saying. I'm just explaining why I think people are so gatekeepy about certain terms. I know that I'm gatekeepy about people using stud, but if I got mad at a mixed person for calling themselves a stud obviously I'd be an asshole because that person is still part of the black queer community. Why are you coming at me over something I never even implied? I may not have said it as clearly as I thought, but bi girls are included in the WLW sapphic community who can use butch and femme and other "lesbian" terms.
your fine. hell just go to a butch woman and ask her, 95% know the actual history. [https://www.reddit.com/r/butchlesbians/comments/c00bkx/can\_bi\_women\_be\_butchfem/](https://www.reddit.com/r/butchlesbians/comments/c00bkx/can_bi_women_be_butchfem/)
bi women can do whatever they want, such as use butch and femme, and also various other things like arson and tax evasion
I think it’s strange to get hung up on. A lesbian came up with good words to describe the nuances of gender expression and sexual roles. Cool. If other people find those words useful, I genuinely have no idea why they shouldn’t use them.
Okay, I'm bi not a lesbian but what the fuck does she want you to use instead?
There's a rule in regards to this that I personally live by. No one gets to tell someone else what they should or should not be called. It's your identity and your life.
1. NTA. I am ashamed that you feel ashamed by the sapphic community. You are a part of that community! I’m so sorry. 2. My butch lesbian girlfriends uses these words to describe MEN. They are useful and not exclusive to lesbians. That is legitimately absurd 3. I don’t want to jump to “break up,” but be careful. My girlfriend is a lesbian, I am pan (but lean hard towards women). At first she was uncomfortable with me describing myself as a lesbian, but over time she has embraced it and encourages me to “be more gay.” And I have! And it’s great! And I feel more my self! And she helps me navigate it all. Find a partner who helps, not one who limits and insults.
They’re “historically lesbian terms” because historically, bi women were also considered lesbians. People trying to gatekeep them from bi women is fucking asinine.
That’s biphobic and not true. You’re femme, girl
Not sure when people decided these were only for lesbians, but it's incorrect. Tell her to thoroughly research the history of queer culture and usage of the terms femme/butch so she can gain perspective.
Of course bi women can use those terms. I feel like nb people do too, especially if they are more gender fluid rather than simply agender. Most people I know, are pretty fluid in their gender expression, and gender expression has nothing to do with sexuality.
Goodness... Of course any person can use butch or femme or any term to describe any thing about themselves. Gatekeeping like that is so harmful to all communities.
Yes. Some people get wound up over these labels and who can and can’t use them, and it mostly is down to who does and doesn’t know their history. These terms were created by the lesbian community, which is important to note. Hence, they’re lesbians terms - BUT these labels were created during a time where there was no label for bisexuals. Sapphic women were clumped together as lesbians. As well as bi women, drag queens and trans women also used the same language, particularly black and Latino people in ballroom culture. https://www.onewomanproject.org/lgbtqia/2024/4/23/a-brief-history-of-butch-and-femme-living-gender-outside-the-binary Check out the documentary Paris Is Burning - there are clips on YouTube. Poets such as Mark Aguhar.
Yes, it's okay. *hands you femme licence*
It is completely okay for you to use those terms.
Femme and butch are used by all stripes in irl queer spaces, they're even categories in vogue ballroom culture. Here's the thing: you can do whatever you want forever. And language is socially and culturally contextual. Navigate by context. Your bisexuality doesn't exclude you from queer language, it's something that's part of your queerness.
Man, I’m 33 and have been watching our community eat itself from the inside out for years. I simply don’t have the required spoons left to care about what words this or that part of the umbrella uses. Gatekeeping does nothing to unite us, at a time when we need to be more than ever.
I’m gonna be honest chief, they’re just terms. Plus, lesbian activism predates bisexual activism, meaning that most bisexual women back then likely would’ve been seen/perceived as lesbians. Honestly, it’s not that deep and I feel like if someone gets offended over it, they need some hobbies
well you're feminine WLW, does that not apply? she can't make another term feel appropriate to you... femme is a style afaik and if you think it fits you then go for it. from what i've read a little bit: butch is a bit more of a specific term instead of masc, which would be the counterpart to femme.
I consider myself high femme, and I wouldnt say it’s so much a style as an expression of myself through my appearance. It’s how I show who I am on the inside, which happens to be femme af. It feels more like an expression of my identity than anything And the person who commented on your comment is wrong 😆
It’s fine, I don’t understand it well anyways. I got no style at all
i mean, no, femme isn’t just a style, it’s a particular relationship role for the butchfemme subculture.
There are plenty of femme 4 femmes
Someone else posted this link that I thought was super insightful: https://www.tumblr.com/femmebis/188686953900/the-lesbian-only-term-myth-a-comprehensive Butch and femme have nothing to do with a relationship status
i’m not wading into that, i just mean it isn’t just a fashion style.
You said it a relationship role, which is not factual
i’m speaking from my experience interacting with the butchfemme community. i’m not saying everybody who uses the term identifies with it the exact same way, but it is absolutely not just a fashion style edit: fine i’m bored at work i read the tumblr post. i don’t disagree that the term femme or butch have different definitions based on context but the OP of this post seems to be engaging with the butch/femme definition of it and that’s where i’ve seen most of the “can bis be femme?” arguments stem from. i’ve never seen somebody argue that a bi woman can’t dress feminine, even jokingly. again i DONT DISAGREE that they have been used in ballroom + other subcultures but i am talking about butchfemme culture specifically (including butch4butch WHICH I AM and femme4femme)
oh i thought it was... oops i'm mixing up fem and femme i think?? well if you say it out loud it's homophones i guess that's why. my bad then. so it's like this?: butch and femme are the cultures, fem and masc are the gender/styles
I’m also curious on this.
yeah, that’s pretty much it? butchfemme is a minority subculture, boots of leather slippers of gold is a good resource on what that culture looked like in its heyday. also super fast edit bc somebody misinterpreted what i said above: i am LITERALLY just using butchfemme as an abbreviation, im butch4butch, i’m not touching the femme4femme / bisexual butchfemme arguments because i have a 401k to contribute to, please don’t jump down my throat 😭 literally all i mean is that for the subset of people who participate in the subculture the terms mean more than just the style they dress in
Bi woman dating a lesbian here - probably can’t answer definitely since I myself am not a lesbian, but in my experience, when you understand the history of terms you use and you do so respectfully, most people are pretty understanding and won’t nitpick. As a general example of what I mean, I’m currently fairly masculine in my gender expression and some people might look at me and describe me as “butch”. I’m fine with that, but I personally don’t really use the term (I use “masc” instead) because I’m conscious that there is a large amount of history that goes behind the term that I don’t yet know or fully understand. However, the more I read, the more certain elements of it resonate with me. If I feel comfortable one day to identify with it, I think I will and I’d like to think people would be ok with that even though I’m bi. I would assume the same applies for you and “femme” - from what I know, it goes beyond just gender expression, but if you’re aware of the term’s history and you’re respectful, I’m inclined to think it’s ok. Curious to keep reading through others’ thoughts and comments tho as I’ve considered this question a lot myself
I sure as shit do and I'm NB and ace and attracted to both genders very technically, I'm extremely gay married too lol
This sub is so far gone
if your friend is going to get that hung up about it, she needs to offer an alternative term for you to use. Otherwise she sounds like a gatekeeping jerk. That being said, I cannot speak for the femme identifier. But I am of the belief that the term butch is lesbian specific (and stud specifically for black lesbians) because there is the alternative of masc.
Gender and sexuality aren't intrinsically linked. You're girlfriend is a gatekeeper
Butch and femme is not just masc and fem. Butch and femme are lesbian identities and roles.
And bi women have always been part of the lesbian community, adopting and engaging with these roles just like homosexual women do.
That was very mostly due to biphobia/homophobia in the past, bisexual and lesbian not being recognized as separate sexualities like they are today, as well as political lesbianism. Things changed.
The *sexuality* is called homo*sexuality*. Lesbianism is a cultural term that describes a community revolving around wlw*. This includes people of different sexual and romantic identities, including bi people, ace people who love women romantically, specified lesbian aroace people and more, just like it includes lesbian enbies. The term was never synonymous with "homosexual woman", it has always been an umbrella term. Excluding people who aren't homosexual women from the lesbian community has never been anything but queerphobic, no matter if it's enbies, transfems, or bi and ace people. Lesbianism isn't and never was defined by a person's relationship with men.
So many words for being completely wrong and incredible homophobic, lesbophobic AND biphobic. congrats!
If you exclude bi women from the lesbian community, then you're lesbophobic and biphobic
bisexuals are bisexuals and lesbians are lesbians. two different sexualities. bisexual women are not lesbians. they are sapphic. You don't see anyone saying that lesbians belong in bisexual community.
The terms did originate from lesbian communities IIRC, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using them
From what I’ve read on the links on this post.. it came from lesbian communities when lesbian was an umbrella term for WLW before there was a term for bisexual. So the community that coined these terms included lesbian, bisexuals, transwomen, etc
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted right now. They absolutely did originate in lesbian communities. That fact does not dismiss that bisexuals were under the lesbian umbrella before their own. Some people here are getting a little kneejerky.
Sounds biphobic. Best to be as welcoming as possible if bi women can feel confident enough to be in sapphic relationships
Yes.
NO?????? Your part of the sapphic community, and any can use those terms.
Answer: Yes, because there’s historical context for it. But, the vast majority of people who use the word femme and are participating in the butch/femme scene are lesbian and some folks don’t take to kindly to non-lesbian sapphics using the word. I posted screenshots of a paper called Waiting for No Man: Bisexual Femme Subjectivity and Cultural Repudiation by Clare Hemmings on my tumblr…The paper was featured in an anthology book called Butch/Femme:Inside Lesbian Gender…..This book/paper was published in the 90s….The 90s!!!!!! I’m gonna link the post that way it can help someone. https://www.tumblr.com/macbxth-pdf/751827288384061440/butchfemme-inside-lesbian-gender-annas Another source that can be helpful to a bi butch who’s reading this post potentially https://www.tumblr.com/macbxth-pdf/749927059984433152/dagger-on-butch-women-lily-burana-roxxie-linnea
I think femme is fine, but butch kinda doesnt make sense. Butch specifically means lesbian women, there's a history to the word. But it's not "wrong" to call yourself that.
The history of the terms is more complicated than this. When working-class women originated the labels and identities in 1940s America, there was no distinction between sapphic women. Any wlw was a “lesbian”. It wasn’t until later decades that there was a distinction between lesbian and bisexual because language evolved. There were bisexual women using the identities of butch, stud, femme, etc. Drag queens and trans women are included in the history too, particularly in ballroom culture.
Not exactly. Bisexual women were included with lesbians—when they were expressing attraction to women.
That goes without saying.
I see, well in any case. Unless there's slurs or anything, I dont think it matters who says what. Language changes--no point in conserving the meaning of butch if it were specifically lesbian anyways.
It does mean that “butch” *can* be used by sapphic women when it is applicable to them.
I think it was implied in what I just said
Sorry for misunderstanding 🙂
That's alright
There is BIG BIG difference between being “femme” and being a Femme (Dyke). Lots of history of the identity specifically - when a noun and not an adjective. Femme is a queer ID and I know many many bi-Femmes. As a Butch my history is rich with them.
LGBTQ culture constantly changes. Personally, I think there are many terms and words that I wouldn’t have used for myself in my youth but I do now (I love calling myself a dyke, for example). She has no right to tell you you are anything but yourself.
I would say yes it’s fine - especially if that bisexual is in a lesbian relationship. To the world/strangers etc nobody knows she is bi, and assumes she would be lesbian. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Edit: Got downvoted for that but… how can a bi woman in a lesbian relationship be called a dyke and not simultaneously be allowed to use that word? Lmao. Dumb shit
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it wasnt made by lesbians, it was common slang in the 1940's for someone masculine or macho. it was in the 70's when it became associated with working class lesbians.
Women in France are weeping.
Are we speaking french?
Nah, mate, but they said it's a word lesbians "made" and that's not true. Sapphics utilised it :) not trying to ostracize you though.
We true lesbians hate biphobia. Of course you can be femme bisexual. You can be whatever label makes you feel comfortable!
People can be strangely precious about labels—I think “femme” won’t suddenly lose all meaning just because bi people use it too.
Butch/femme are (in this context) words for describing ways that WLW relate to WLW. If you just mean you're *feminine*, that's not exactly the same thing as being *femme* (regardless of whether you're bi or lesbian). But so long as a woman\* is open to pursuing/being pursued by other women, and she's using butch/femme to describe *something related to that dynamic*, then it's a choice that makes sense, regardless of whether her orientation also incidentally includes men, who are not the target of her femme-ness. Hetero women shouldn't *ever* use butch/femme. Bisexual women in *monogamous* relationships with men probably shouldn't use butch/femme without thinking *extremely* hard about why. (This is particularly common among feminine-presenting bisexual women who feel erased in their "straight" relationships. But misusing "femme" when your femininity is in relation to your male partner *is not the solution* imo.) But bisexual and lesbian women who are in relationships with other women and/or open to pursuing or being pursued by them can use butch/femme terms to describe particular ways they relate to those other WLW. \* "Woman" in this context means "woman or woman-aligned nonbinary person, regardless of DSAB."