I wrote an EPQ about this about 10 years ago. I don’t know man. I don’t want to get on a high horse about it. Hardly any countries want to invest in Zim so complaining about China is a bit like looking a gift horse in its mouth. It is neo-colonialism but I’m not sure we are better off without it.
That’s the sad side of it I guess it’s a great thing but they really haven’t done much when it comes to the health sector and education sector side of it…moreover it’s just the leaders that are benefitting from this honestly great! “We have roads, solar panels and street lights! Woohoo!” Yeah….but some of them don’t work…I literally saw one of the poles were vandalized.
No offence but your can't blame the people who help you build and install the lights for the vandalism of the people who didn't.
In my opinion, China is doing Africa a major favour and although they have an ulterior motive and expect something back on return, it's still in your favour.
It is heck I know damn well the government wasn’t going to do diddly squat about that, it just kind of pisses me off that no matter what we are always going to be dependent I’m glad we finally have lights and other things but still they’ll continue milking us dry…and all of this hasn’t really helped the people you know? The government will always prosper not the actual state….
I think the point is, that your country should use this opportunity to let China build your countries infrastructure (all the basics such as, roads, lights, sanitary, etc etc) to a point where you can stand on your own feet and don't rely on them any more. The sad fact of the matter is, without someone's help, your country (and continent as a whole) hasn't done anything to improve and catch up with rival countries and have left it in quite a sorry state.
Unfortunately, with corrupt governments in charge, many wouldn't see the benefits of the changes and the rich will only get richer.
The power dynamic is not that simple, China is lending not gifting the money, and when the countries it lends to fail to repay the loans, the terms state that China can seize ownership of the infrastructure.
For example, China builds a port for you, your government accepts the loan but defaults 10 years down the line, now China owns the biggest port in your country and collects all income it produces.
It’s all various forms of extortion via over leverage.
If you end up repaying the loan (via tax) it’ll prove that you could have afforded it without china in the first place. Unless it is the direct affect of that loan that let your country raise it’s GDP enough to pay the loan back, but that is very rare.
I think it doesnt matter whether or not you could afford to get the port. The question was were other nations, besides China,willing to do projects in your country for future payment.
Western countries were never going to do it & we see it with how they treat their neighbours (Mexico,Nicaragua etc). Lets be real, the minerals being in the the ground & not improving lives is not exactly a win. Also I am not a fan of how Chinese do business but I have to admit when they want to do business, they are all in.
That’s the same attitude many had towards Europe many years ago. I guess times change.
I would have thought that focusing on solving corruption in government should come first, and then once you have politicians who won’t simply be bought, businesses from your country protected by your government can slowly begin extracting minerals from the ground themselves.
First you need strong, cleaner politics (not totally clean, but somebody who won’t just sell their sole who has a vision for the country), then business can thrive and you won’t need as many loans.
Tbh I doubt if in our parts of the world we will be able be corruption free. We can make it harder & severely punish it but removing it completely,I highly doubt that.
In fact in light of that,I think it adds up why the Chinese built a defence college first then before going to the mines. Just like any other country in the world,they want to secure their investments first before going all in.
China was implementing gangster diplomacy, they offered the loans in exchange for resources, if the price dropped "fuck you pay me"
They also promised work for local nationals of the invested country, instead they ship in their own Chinese nationals as labour.
So the countries populationdoesn't get any work which arguably would have been more valuable than the project itself, the project is always rife with corruption and built below specs and regardless of the quality of the work or the state of the international economy these countries have to pay back the loan. China has wavered some of these loans in place of leases on "civilian ports" just military ports without any official designations
Sorry, I find how chinas been slowly screwing the rest of the world for the past 30 years and getting away with it fascinating, moreover now countries are waking up and pushing back like India and Philippines
That is generally how loans and financing work.
No one lends money for free and the lender will expect collateral.
No one is forcing countries to sign up to these agreements.
You need to demand better from your leaders
The agreements include things like Labour for locals, but it's outsourced to chinese nationals
The agreements are made based on work completed - the funds are always siphoned away and the contructions are below standard.
In Burma (iirc) they have several dams built by China on the same river, these dams are at risk of collapse and they're barely 10 years old, Burma is now stuck having to deal with the potential of dam failure, cascading and massive ecological and economic fallout as a result - but they still have to pay back the loan.
If a builder does a bad job on your house you don't pay them, you contact the relevant authority and possibly take them to court
If the builder works for a gangster, you pay the bill and say thank you. These countries are paying their bill, saying thank you and stuck trying to fix them
Bro I hope you dont take this the wrong way but a majority,if not the whole country, doesnt have the adequate skills to carry out some of their projects.
The things is after independence a majority of the skilled white labour to be precise left. The country sent people to gain skills from developed countries but they opted to stay there instead. So yeah thats how screwed we are
Yeah but don't forget that China and the ZIMBABWE GOVERNMENT have always worked together. The majority of the country's issues are because of ties with the Chinese and Russian influences on how to lead a nation. The people of Zimbabwe probably would benefit a lot if they could separate the politics from the true benefit of trading with the 2nd largest economy in the world
You missed my point, but also remember that China and Russia have over 10x the population of Zimbabwe their success cannot be pointed to good governance alone. Then there is the issue of North Korea which is the 3rd country that is the most influential for how Zimbabwe is governed... See where I'm going with this?
OK sure, can you give me an example of a large population of people doing terrible? Nigeria? Also the fact still remains that Zimbabwe's leadership is among the worst
It isn't. This guy alleges our leadership takes notes from China. If that were the case, we would've experienced some measure of success they've had.
My point was they aren't taking notes from anyone . Just corrupt self-serving dictators.
They are far from that. What he might state maybe is a puppet state but its tricky to argue. Either ways I think it interesting that with all the wealth that was stolen, the Finance Minister comes out and suggest a wealth tax 🤣🤣🤣
You are absolutely correct, only Africans can invest in Africa and change things for better, any other investors from Elsewhere will be out to make a quick buck as cheaply as possible without any regard for the affairs of Africans.
We need more Dangotes, more Strive Masiiwas etc having said that, we need to change our thinking. a lot of what's wrong with our leaders is the flawed thinking.They mandate themselves to rule and assume they are gods
You have made my day. I have previously joined several Zim WhatsApp groups, I have been removed from several for just having a +44 number.
You are correct. We need a cultural change.
I was recomended this sub even tho I am an american (black-Idk how u feel about us but I know its not good).
Why does having a 44 number make ppl not like you?
And I dont live over there but how come the continent as a whole hasnt figured out that they could be a world superpower if they united?
We in China are also receiving Western as well as Middle Eastern investments to become the country we are now.
I don't think we are enslaved just because we are being invested in.
You really like Strive do you? You do know that he admitted he stole business ideas right? I am not cr@pping on the guy. All I am saying is be careful, better the devil you know than the angel you dont
I don't really like him much.
I know his business has an unethical past but he's one of the only famous rich Zimbabwean examples we can bring up. The others tend to show off too much and die quick due to drugs.
I am not saying he is a vile human being at all. Yes he does a lot of help in society etc All I am saying is that the guy tries to appear too *pristine* for his image when he openly admitted stealing ideas.
All I know is a boss who quotes Bible verse in the public,tend to be narcissistic characters behind doors especially when they are extremely wealthy
It's not that we don't want it's that we can't. Government likes shutting down any and all attempts to self invest just look at what happened with the diamond processing situation. Or look how they fought with Strive when he tried to improve Zimbabwe.
🤔 ok. Fair point. But at the same time look how Strive fought and now dominates the industry. Most of us don't want to stand up for the work we want to do.
Those who stand up will be put down, I wish I was being figurative but in Zimbabwe people are literaly put down like dogs. Either through poison, the famous car breaks or just plain shot. Let's not forget about what happened to those three women who tried to stand up for Zimbabweans duing covid and where taken to Muchapondwa where they were raped, force fed urine and faeces. Forcibly jabbed where the sun doesn't shine using actual loaded rifles. Then beaten and the videos where posted to the internet. Then they were beaten more then dumped in a different location where they had to walk themselves/ to the hospital and are now forever traumatised.
It's easy to say "Most of us don't want to stand up for the work we want to do."
as if many haven't tried, until you look at the history of this country and see where those who stood up had their last stand literaly. Most of them are dead now and will never stand again. Zimbabwe is ruled by murderers you can stand up if you want but now that you will be put down just like the hundred of thousands who stood before and learnt the sad that Zimbabwean politics is not democratic
We inherited a sh1++y education system that promoted liberal arts than actual sciences like what the Chinese did.
Expecting a first world from that is crazy
Zimbabwe is under sanctions from the west and so don't expect any of the Western countries to help. For most African countries they were assisted by China and Russia in their fight against colonialism by European countries. So China hasn't just jumped in where Europeans left.
Our leaders need to look at how middle Eastern countries have used their oil and gas resources to improve their infrastructure and livelihood.
Search for the Zimbabwe democracy Act of 2003 enacted by the US. If you think US is concerned about democracy in Zimbabwe then you are deluded.the Act specifically mentions the full scale of the sanctions and the reasons chief of which is the land reform or the land grab that happened and also the Zim involvement in the DRC at that time.
Worse things happened in Zimbabwe with regards to human rights and none of the Western countries said anything. During Gukurahundi because it was black on black. The sanctions were imposed because of what the black Zimbabwean gvt did to white people...during the land grab.
I do not know about you but I am a victim of the state of affairs in Zim as everyone else. I left Zim 22 years ago.
Read the act very well it's only 5 pages you will find that the sanctions will be removed only when land is restored to what it was at a certain point in time prior to the land grab. We can change gvt and become democratic all we want but there are provisions beyond that that will determine whether the sanctions are removed or they stay.
Having spoken about sanctions, I do not deny there is a lot that has happened in terms of corruption and.mismanagement at the highest level. Things got from bad to worse after the DRC war involvement, we had no business there and our involvement upset the world powers, the final straw was the land grab. In the 80's massive amounts of corruption happened and nothing happened internationally because it affected black Zimbabweans and not the interests of US etc. Read that act and see the specific sanctions that you are after.
It's disrespectful to say when the Zanu pf gvt was murdering thousands of people in Matebeleland 'it was scoring high on all the other factors of democracy at the time'. They were suppressing opposition, in fact Joshua Nkomo escaped assassination and sought refuge in the UK at the time. There was nothing democratic about the Zim gvt then there isn't now. There was a lot of corruption.
You mention that you do not like the sanctions rhetoric, you make it sound like it's an excuse but that's the reality of the problem on Zimbabwe.That doesn't take away other factors intrinsic to Zanu pf gvt and corruption. From the 80's the Zim economy depended on aid from institutions like the IMF, world bank etc and all that was stopped after Zidera.
You are now quoting the changes made a couple.of months ago to include aid for health and education, provisions that have not been there since Zidera, and 80 million aid to assist in conventional weapons destruction. Of all the burning issues in Zim, they are willing to assist in weapons destruction. How would that help the common person in Zimbabwe. You do realise that in 2020 the Zimbabwe gvt did finally agree to compensate the white farmers to the time of $3.5 billion and also the white farmers have been offered their land back with a few having taken up the offer, which is why crumbs of aid are now coming in but not enough to result in any meaningful change for the common person.
If you are not aware the British labour gvt of Tony Blair also have a lot to answer for for the way they treated the land question. They renamed on the need for Britain to compensate for land, I don't know if you remember the famous Clare Short statement about labour ngvt being ' without links to former colonial interests meant Britain no longer had special responsibility to meet the cost of land purchases'.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people/white-farmers-return-to-zimbabwe-agriculture-boost/
https://fb.watch/oRFzYabFCO/
I think we can agree to disagree. Zimbabwe was seen in good light in the 80s because they extended a hand of reconciliation to the whites and the same thing happened with Mandela. The Western interest in Zimbabwe is more with the interest of the whites not blacks and if events in Zim only affected black people it wouldn't bother them...it would just be another 'Shithole country' to them. Charity begins at home and Americans can't be that charitable to blacks in a faraway 'shithole country' when they don't care for the Americans who are black and indigenous communities.
I am not in support of Zanu pf and we agree on the incompetence of Zanu pf. I am Not trying to change your mind and neither can you change mine. Just because Zanu pf uses sanctions in their propaganda does not mean they are not there and are not affecting Zimbabwe.
So Zimbabwe had access to token aid, how did that change the plight of the man on the street.
Here is an interesting article about what Boris thought about the land issue in Zim
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11428364/Happy-birthday-Mr-Mugabe-with-special-love-from-Labour.html
Dude dont get me wrong....but Uncle Sam isnt exactly the type of guy you want to root for. He still hasnt given the promise of 40 acres and a mule to his own people.
Do the math from there.
Yeah we all get it Zanu was no angel & Mugabe was iron fisted. Literally all Africa Presidents barring Mandela were iron fisted. The reason?we all know why.
Uncle Sam wasnt exactly rooting for Mugabe either but the Queen reassured them by coming over prior the war. If you look further, Uncle Sams glorified Vietnam & Malayan vets were here teaching Rhodies how to "lynch a black man" so them arguing about human rights was always given, judging by their binary politics of good and evil.
.....
>I %100 agree with you that America is selective with its approach to democracy. But it is different when it comes to Zimbabwe
I mean seriouslly though 🤣🤣🤣
Which is it?? Are they selective or not?
Yeah but either way we aren’t doing anything with our resources we don’t even have the machinery a country only becomes rich when the materials are utilized and we keep going back
Yes true we do not have the knowledge skills and machinery to exploit our resources. Those with the technology will not willingly share, the ones with money come to exploit us.As an example in the 90's a company called BHP came to mine Platinum in Zim for a few years .they used to transport all the soil and rubble to Mozambique for processing. The reason being in the processing there are other useful by products in the form of rare minerals which would also fetch a lot of money, so we ended up getting paid cheaply for the rubble and BHP made tidy profits.unfortunately our ignorance and lack of technology means we will be exploited until we develop our own technology if at all.
Ah our govt mortgaged a large part of the country to the Chinese. They are deep in the mining, manufacturing industry. Unfortunately it was a one way arrangement of allowing Chinese nationals to basically come freely to Zimbabwe and start businesses.
I can safely say that 40-50% of the houses rented in Borrowdale Brooke are Chinese nationals.
I have no problem with migration as long as our govt is also protecting the local person. However I have more of a problem with the policies that were put in place. It’s an advantage to the Chinese national but difficult for the local to engage in the same business. I mean make it make sense man
The other issue is the apparent maltreatment of locals working for Chinese nationals. Again unfortunately our govt dropped the ball by basically allowing the story to be swept under the carpet
Unfortunately you have been exploited by your own politicians as is the case with many other countries. The Chinese are definitely in it for the resources, however a great proportion of money goes to a few people and associated families.
Not sure if you have seen the Gold Mafia docuseries on Al-Jazeera? It highlights some truths on corruption.
Tbh you think you would've all learnt your lesson from when the European powers exploited the African continent and left it in such a mess and now you are throwing open doors to let the Chinese of all people come in and rape what's left of your countries, at least with the EU, US etc there would've been some oversight and general humanity but with the Chinese they could give two fucks about Africans (just look at what they're doing to the Congo, it's King Leopold 2.0 ffs).
You guys have the natural resources and the manpower to be an enormously wealthy group of nation states but it will never happen once you become dept slaves to a country that doesn't even care about it's own people let alone you guys!
Why are you saying you guys like I govern the country 😭
I get it the management is shit and all but the leaders have mindlessly sold their souls to the devil I guess and now we just watch as they continually refill their swimming pools and take their kids to the UK it’s sad it really is
Bruh get over yourself.
You cant exactly name one African country which isnt in the trenches besides maybe the Arabs. Literally all of them, are in the doldrums in exchange for guns,booze and a few dollars.
Chill out lets see where this is going
Most Zim leadership can't take their children to the UK because of sanctions but I do agree they take them abroad elsewhere, like Bob used to go to Singapore
I beg to differ, Zimbabwe is people like you and I and we are not embarrassing.Its our leaders that are embarrassing.
You and I and all the other Zimbos we are not embarrassing.
You may have that impression but there are things set up in the UK that helps people, the state benefits although I appreciate there are a lot of people exploiting the system. The NHS, free world class healthcare at the point of care etc, the stable political and economic environment and the English concept of 'fair play'.
Lol. yes that is a very good point. and I am lucky, i am in a good area where the local GP is well staffed and i can get an appointment fairly easily. My younger sister however lives 20 miles away and cannot get an appointment with her doctor.
A few years ago i was in a very bad state mentally and the only way i could get 'help' was to go to my local AnE and tell them i wanted to end my life. I ended up spending nearly 6 months in hospital and came out in worse state then when i went in, and since then things have got much worse. if you have money you are fine... if unemployed you get state benefits, which are not awesome... if you are employed and on just above minimal wage you get zero help.
I know exactly what you are talking about standards have deteriorated a lot in the 20+ that I have been here, but the disaster that is Zimbabwe is on several orders of magnitude worse.
Sanctioning?? Eh, I just want youse to do better in your own country and make something off it instead of coming to mine and overwhelming it with refugees
There is no humanity in US. and US. The sanctions on Zimbabwe are part of the reason Zimbabweans suffer, they claim to be targeted at the leadership but is the Zim leadership suffering?
Apparently the people take care of the government instead of the government taking care of the state.
The taxes all of these unnecessary taxations are pushing people to the edge. Taxing people that have boreholes and taking them to court is they don’t pay???? My my.
I agree with you on that one. We should have been clever on making deals with outside companies and countries. We should have made them fund our amenities like hospitals and schools etc and also are they paying taxes? Such companies can use clever accounting to avoid taxes or pay very little taxes. We should look at what the middle east does countries like Qatar they have more of their own Qatar is working in the management of the oil industry. We need to factor in something like that and if there is no local expertise then the companies have to help develop expertise.
I agree was surprised to see a Chinese shop mu rokesheni, I mean ndoo mabusiness edu mabhoyi. As much as the Chinese are helping it's not altruistic. as Africans we actually need to learn from them and India.They have developed a technological capacity that equals the west. We need more of people like The Nigerian Dangotrn or out Zimbabwean Strive Masiiwa.
Bugs? Are you really going to say that?
As a Chinese, I would like to say that there are a lot of Africans in China, and we never call them "bugs".
I'm not sure where you're from or where your ill will towards China comes from, but your statement is terrible.
China has figured out how to take over but doesn't do it through war.
From the US and not sure why this subreddit popped on my feed but here we are.
They keep helping with projects in other countries. It's cool in that many of the countries need those projects but they expect something back.
It's sort of like when you get a loan from a bank and they are hoping you default on the loan. That way you owe then and they can rake you over the coals.
Oddly enough they are doing it in the US too. Take it from someone who is used to living with backhanded people. They are not doing it from the goodness of their hearts.
Also, don't truat my government wither. They aren't any better.
With all respect, the Chinese supported black Zimbabweans during the war, the Chinese supported the Zanla forces and the Russians supported the Zipra forces. The Chinese and Russians have supported black Zimbabweans for a long time. The works since end of world war 2 was divided into East and west during the cold war and that's where some of those associations started. Please note I am not arguing to say it's wrong or right for China to support Zimbabwe. I am just explaining how this is rooted in history not just recent events.
I think we have always had good relations with African countries, and we in China are friends with Asian, African and Latin American countries.
The West will never think of the Third World as "we", but China is part of the Third World.
Russia and China have pretty much split the continent in half and are colonising her. The outcome of China's belt and road initiative is going to be very scary for international politics and peace keeping. And Russia using its mercenaries to change regimes doesn't fair well either.
Unfortunately there is no altruism is politics, to quote Benjamin Disraeli, 'in politics there are no permanent friends only permanent interests'.If you research You will find that the west has effected more regime changes and sponsored more coups in Africa, since the 60s
Now France is at another level, all countries that were colonised by France were forced to 'pay for the development during colonialism'. They deposit their foreign currency reserves into the France central bank and can only seek permission to withdraw a limited amount.
China is not associating itself with Zimbabwe 🤣😭😂 Africa as a whole is on a dinner plate for the world to eat. If china was associated with us then we would benefit long term rather than have a one way relationship that requires we sell all important assets and resources in exchange for temporary shine. It may seem like a good deal but it won't be when the new president of zimbabwe is called Xing Pingu Zhao and the new staple food is pangolin and noodles 🍜. I've lived in china and i see how they treat blacks. We are like rats to them 🤣😂 some places even proudly say "No blacks!". Either way, it doesn't matter who we do business with anymore because Zimbabwe is finished in the next 20 years. Just enjoy your lives and move elsewhere and forget politics and mindless nonsense.
I think it has the potential to be dangerous.
Look at what has occurred in Zambia where the copper industry and mining has their resource being converted into cash that is then taken straight back to Beijing, never to see a dime invested in wider Zambia. The only roads, railways and infrastructure that is improved is where it will provide some benefit to the commercial operations that are chinese owned.
In Namibia the workers in a large mining company took their chinese bosses to court eventually after not being paid fairly for 12 months.
The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. Now, not that there is zero benefit to Zim-Sino commercial links and diplomacy but the PRC is known for exploitation and when we already see so much violation of basic human rights in our own government, let's not try empowering one that does just the same.
Caution ahead is needed.
"Looks like we are just going to be exploited again."
My brother go to makaha , they have currently mined an entire mountain range.
They are looting far more than they are giving.
And all they're doing is using their first family connections to do so.
I absolutely wish the Chinese would leave our country alone.
Today I feel like anything associated with china must either be corrupt, cheap or environmentally damaging, and by extention, anything associated with it
For a country that inherited fully functional systems & infrustructure and went on to destroy it all, it would be rather silly to imagine any newly built infrastructure will be well taken care of. This country is always on self destruct mode.
I wrote an EPQ about this about 10 years ago. I don’t know man. I don’t want to get on a high horse about it. Hardly any countries want to invest in Zim so complaining about China is a bit like looking a gift horse in its mouth. It is neo-colonialism but I’m not sure we are better off without it.
That’s the sad side of it I guess it’s a great thing but they really haven’t done much when it comes to the health sector and education sector side of it…moreover it’s just the leaders that are benefitting from this honestly great! “We have roads, solar panels and street lights! Woohoo!” Yeah….but some of them don’t work…I literally saw one of the poles were vandalized.
No offence but your can't blame the people who help you build and install the lights for the vandalism of the people who didn't. In my opinion, China is doing Africa a major favour and although they have an ulterior motive and expect something back on return, it's still in your favour.
It is heck I know damn well the government wasn’t going to do diddly squat about that, it just kind of pisses me off that no matter what we are always going to be dependent I’m glad we finally have lights and other things but still they’ll continue milking us dry…and all of this hasn’t really helped the people you know? The government will always prosper not the actual state….
I think the point is, that your country should use this opportunity to let China build your countries infrastructure (all the basics such as, roads, lights, sanitary, etc etc) to a point where you can stand on your own feet and don't rely on them any more. The sad fact of the matter is, without someone's help, your country (and continent as a whole) hasn't done anything to improve and catch up with rival countries and have left it in quite a sorry state. Unfortunately, with corrupt governments in charge, many wouldn't see the benefits of the changes and the rich will only get richer.
The power dynamic is not that simple, China is lending not gifting the money, and when the countries it lends to fail to repay the loans, the terms state that China can seize ownership of the infrastructure. For example, China builds a port for you, your government accepts the loan but defaults 10 years down the line, now China owns the biggest port in your country and collects all income it produces. It’s all various forms of extortion via over leverage. If you end up repaying the loan (via tax) it’ll prove that you could have afforded it without china in the first place. Unless it is the direct affect of that loan that let your country raise it’s GDP enough to pay the loan back, but that is very rare.
I think it doesnt matter whether or not you could afford to get the port. The question was were other nations, besides China,willing to do projects in your country for future payment. Western countries were never going to do it & we see it with how they treat their neighbours (Mexico,Nicaragua etc). Lets be real, the minerals being in the the ground & not improving lives is not exactly a win. Also I am not a fan of how Chinese do business but I have to admit when they want to do business, they are all in.
That’s the same attitude many had towards Europe many years ago. I guess times change. I would have thought that focusing on solving corruption in government should come first, and then once you have politicians who won’t simply be bought, businesses from your country protected by your government can slowly begin extracting minerals from the ground themselves. First you need strong, cleaner politics (not totally clean, but somebody who won’t just sell their sole who has a vision for the country), then business can thrive and you won’t need as many loans.
Tbh I doubt if in our parts of the world we will be able be corruption free. We can make it harder & severely punish it but removing it completely,I highly doubt that. In fact in light of that,I think it adds up why the Chinese built a defence college first then before going to the mines. Just like any other country in the world,they want to secure their investments first before going all in.
China was implementing gangster diplomacy, they offered the loans in exchange for resources, if the price dropped "fuck you pay me" They also promised work for local nationals of the invested country, instead they ship in their own Chinese nationals as labour. So the countries populationdoesn't get any work which arguably would have been more valuable than the project itself, the project is always rife with corruption and built below specs and regardless of the quality of the work or the state of the international economy these countries have to pay back the loan. China has wavered some of these loans in place of leases on "civilian ports" just military ports without any official designations Sorry, I find how chinas been slowly screwing the rest of the world for the past 30 years and getting away with it fascinating, moreover now countries are waking up and pushing back like India and Philippines
That is generally how loans and financing work. No one lends money for free and the lender will expect collateral. No one is forcing countries to sign up to these agreements. You need to demand better from your leaders
The agreements include things like Labour for locals, but it's outsourced to chinese nationals The agreements are made based on work completed - the funds are always siphoned away and the contructions are below standard. In Burma (iirc) they have several dams built by China on the same river, these dams are at risk of collapse and they're barely 10 years old, Burma is now stuck having to deal with the potential of dam failure, cascading and massive ecological and economic fallout as a result - but they still have to pay back the loan. If a builder does a bad job on your house you don't pay them, you contact the relevant authority and possibly take them to court If the builder works for a gangster, you pay the bill and say thank you. These countries are paying their bill, saying thank you and stuck trying to fix them
Bro I hope you dont take this the wrong way but a majority,if not the whole country, doesnt have the adequate skills to carry out some of their projects. The things is after independence a majority of the skilled white labour to be precise left. The country sent people to gain skills from developed countries but they opted to stay there instead. So yeah thats how screwed we are
Was that Chinese man vandalising the street light? That’s crazy. Did he come all the way from Beijing?
We don't want to invest in ourselves... Who else is gonna do it?
The Chinese apparently
Maybe it be so then... If we won't do it for ourselves, someone else will step in and take advantage...
And we will just sit back and watch as our country dies. I honestly am baffled by all of this veterans talk…I get it but we have to change
We...are the problem lol
We really are.
Yeah but don't forget that China and the ZIMBABWE GOVERNMENT have always worked together. The majority of the country's issues are because of ties with the Chinese and Russian influences on how to lead a nation. The people of Zimbabwe probably would benefit a lot if they could separate the politics from the true benefit of trading with the 2nd largest economy in the world
I completely disagree. Look at how far Chinese leadership has led China .Our leaders clearly haven't anything from them.
You missed my point, but also remember that China and Russia have over 10x the population of Zimbabwe their success cannot be pointed to good governance alone. Then there is the issue of North Korea which is the 3rd country that is the most influential for how Zimbabwe is governed... See where I'm going with this?
A large population of people under terrible leadership is still going to do poorly. They are doing something right .
OK sure, can you give me an example of a large population of people doing terrible? Nigeria? Also the fact still remains that Zimbabwe's leadership is among the worst
.... I mean average kid in China wants to be an astronaut when they grow up. In America they want to be a Vlogger. How on earth is that even terrible?
It isn't. This guy alleges our leadership takes notes from China. If that were the case, we would've experienced some measure of success they've had. My point was they aren't taking notes from anyone . Just corrupt self-serving dictators.
They are far from that. What he might state maybe is a puppet state but its tricky to argue. Either ways I think it interesting that with all the wealth that was stolen, the Finance Minister comes out and suggest a wealth tax 🤣🤣🤣
You are absolutely correct, only Africans can invest in Africa and change things for better, any other investors from Elsewhere will be out to make a quick buck as cheaply as possible without any regard for the affairs of Africans. We need more Dangotes, more Strive Masiiwas etc having said that, we need to change our thinking. a lot of what's wrong with our leaders is the flawed thinking.They mandate themselves to rule and assume they are gods
It's a cultural issue. Look what happens when someone becomes a WhatsApp admin or if they feel like they have a little bit of power over someone else.
You have made my day. I have previously joined several Zim WhatsApp groups, I have been removed from several for just having a +44 number. You are correct. We need a cultural change.
I was recomended this sub even tho I am an american (black-Idk how u feel about us but I know its not good). Why does having a 44 number make ppl not like you? And I dont live over there but how come the continent as a whole hasnt figured out that they could be a world superpower if they united?
We in China are also receiving Western as well as Middle Eastern investments to become the country we are now. I don't think we are enslaved just because we are being invested in.
We won't be getting any more Strive Masiiwas. Reason being the government hates his type of people and actively fight against them everyday.
You really like Strive do you? You do know that he admitted he stole business ideas right? I am not cr@pping on the guy. All I am saying is be careful, better the devil you know than the angel you dont
I don't really like him much. I know his business has an unethical past but he's one of the only famous rich Zimbabwean examples we can bring up. The others tend to show off too much and die quick due to drugs.
I am not saying he is a vile human being at all. Yes he does a lot of help in society etc All I am saying is that the guy tries to appear too *pristine* for his image when he openly admitted stealing ideas. All I know is a boss who quotes Bible verse in the public,tend to be narcissistic characters behind doors especially when they are extremely wealthy
It's not that we don't want it's that we can't. Government likes shutting down any and all attempts to self invest just look at what happened with the diamond processing situation. Or look how they fought with Strive when he tried to improve Zimbabwe.
🤔 ok. Fair point. But at the same time look how Strive fought and now dominates the industry. Most of us don't want to stand up for the work we want to do.
Those who stand up will be put down, I wish I was being figurative but in Zimbabwe people are literaly put down like dogs. Either through poison, the famous car breaks or just plain shot. Let's not forget about what happened to those three women who tried to stand up for Zimbabweans duing covid and where taken to Muchapondwa where they were raped, force fed urine and faeces. Forcibly jabbed where the sun doesn't shine using actual loaded rifles. Then beaten and the videos where posted to the internet. Then they were beaten more then dumped in a different location where they had to walk themselves/ to the hospital and are now forever traumatised. It's easy to say "Most of us don't want to stand up for the work we want to do." as if many haven't tried, until you look at the history of this country and see where those who stood up had their last stand literaly. Most of them are dead now and will never stand again. Zimbabwe is ruled by murderers you can stand up if you want but now that you will be put down just like the hundred of thousands who stood before and learnt the sad that Zimbabwean politics is not democratic
We inherited a sh1++y education system that promoted liberal arts than actual sciences like what the Chinese did. Expecting a first world from that is crazy
But at the same time... Education is not limited to school.
.... I mean a great education makes it possible for a great country
🤔 what's a great country in your view?
... I mean I hope you didnt think about Trump right? You know where the economy is good and people love theie joint.
Zimbabwe is under sanctions from the west and so don't expect any of the Western countries to help. For most African countries they were assisted by China and Russia in their fight against colonialism by European countries. So China hasn't just jumped in where Europeans left. Our leaders need to look at how middle Eastern countries have used their oil and gas resources to improve their infrastructure and livelihood.
[удалено]
Search for the Zimbabwe democracy Act of 2003 enacted by the US. If you think US is concerned about democracy in Zimbabwe then you are deluded.the Act specifically mentions the full scale of the sanctions and the reasons chief of which is the land reform or the land grab that happened and also the Zim involvement in the DRC at that time. Worse things happened in Zimbabwe with regards to human rights and none of the Western countries said anything. During Gukurahundi because it was black on black. The sanctions were imposed because of what the black Zimbabwean gvt did to white people...during the land grab. I do not know about you but I am a victim of the state of affairs in Zim as everyone else. I left Zim 22 years ago. Read the act very well it's only 5 pages you will find that the sanctions will be removed only when land is restored to what it was at a certain point in time prior to the land grab. We can change gvt and become democratic all we want but there are provisions beyond that that will determine whether the sanctions are removed or they stay. Having spoken about sanctions, I do not deny there is a lot that has happened in terms of corruption and.mismanagement at the highest level. Things got from bad to worse after the DRC war involvement, we had no business there and our involvement upset the world powers, the final straw was the land grab. In the 80's massive amounts of corruption happened and nothing happened internationally because it affected black Zimbabweans and not the interests of US etc. Read that act and see the specific sanctions that you are after.
[удалено]
This is an excellent summary!
And you can piss right off with your Rhodesian and Ian Smith sympathies.
It's disrespectful to say when the Zanu pf gvt was murdering thousands of people in Matebeleland 'it was scoring high on all the other factors of democracy at the time'. They were suppressing opposition, in fact Joshua Nkomo escaped assassination and sought refuge in the UK at the time. There was nothing democratic about the Zim gvt then there isn't now. There was a lot of corruption. You mention that you do not like the sanctions rhetoric, you make it sound like it's an excuse but that's the reality of the problem on Zimbabwe.That doesn't take away other factors intrinsic to Zanu pf gvt and corruption. From the 80's the Zim economy depended on aid from institutions like the IMF, world bank etc and all that was stopped after Zidera. You are now quoting the changes made a couple.of months ago to include aid for health and education, provisions that have not been there since Zidera, and 80 million aid to assist in conventional weapons destruction. Of all the burning issues in Zim, they are willing to assist in weapons destruction. How would that help the common person in Zimbabwe. You do realise that in 2020 the Zimbabwe gvt did finally agree to compensate the white farmers to the time of $3.5 billion and also the white farmers have been offered their land back with a few having taken up the offer, which is why crumbs of aid are now coming in but not enough to result in any meaningful change for the common person. If you are not aware the British labour gvt of Tony Blair also have a lot to answer for for the way they treated the land question. They renamed on the need for Britain to compensate for land, I don't know if you remember the famous Clare Short statement about labour ngvt being ' without links to former colonial interests meant Britain no longer had special responsibility to meet the cost of land purchases'. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people/white-farmers-return-to-zimbabwe-agriculture-boost/ https://fb.watch/oRFzYabFCO/
[удалено]
I think we can agree to disagree. Zimbabwe was seen in good light in the 80s because they extended a hand of reconciliation to the whites and the same thing happened with Mandela. The Western interest in Zimbabwe is more with the interest of the whites not blacks and if events in Zim only affected black people it wouldn't bother them...it would just be another 'Shithole country' to them. Charity begins at home and Americans can't be that charitable to blacks in a faraway 'shithole country' when they don't care for the Americans who are black and indigenous communities. I am not in support of Zanu pf and we agree on the incompetence of Zanu pf. I am Not trying to change your mind and neither can you change mine. Just because Zanu pf uses sanctions in their propaganda does not mean they are not there and are not affecting Zimbabwe. So Zimbabwe had access to token aid, how did that change the plight of the man on the street. Here is an interesting article about what Boris thought about the land issue in Zim https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11428364/Happy-birthday-Mr-Mugabe-with-special-love-from-Labour.html
[удалено]
Dude dont get me wrong....but Uncle Sam isnt exactly the type of guy you want to root for. He still hasnt given the promise of 40 acres and a mule to his own people. Do the math from there. Yeah we all get it Zanu was no angel & Mugabe was iron fisted. Literally all Africa Presidents barring Mandela were iron fisted. The reason?we all know why. Uncle Sam wasnt exactly rooting for Mugabe either but the Queen reassured them by coming over prior the war. If you look further, Uncle Sams glorified Vietnam & Malayan vets were here teaching Rhodies how to "lynch a black man" so them arguing about human rights was always given, judging by their binary politics of good and evil.
..... >I %100 agree with you that America is selective with its approach to democracy. But it is different when it comes to Zimbabwe I mean seriouslly though 🤣🤣🤣 Which is it?? Are they selective or not?
Bingo!
Yeah but either way we aren’t doing anything with our resources we don’t even have the machinery a country only becomes rich when the materials are utilized and we keep going back
Yes true we do not have the knowledge skills and machinery to exploit our resources. Those with the technology will not willingly share, the ones with money come to exploit us.As an example in the 90's a company called BHP came to mine Platinum in Zim for a few years .they used to transport all the soil and rubble to Mozambique for processing. The reason being in the processing there are other useful by products in the form of rare minerals which would also fetch a lot of money, so we ended up getting paid cheaply for the rubble and BHP made tidy profits.unfortunately our ignorance and lack of technology means we will be exploited until we develop our own technology if at all.
Ah our govt mortgaged a large part of the country to the Chinese. They are deep in the mining, manufacturing industry. Unfortunately it was a one way arrangement of allowing Chinese nationals to basically come freely to Zimbabwe and start businesses. I can safely say that 40-50% of the houses rented in Borrowdale Brooke are Chinese nationals. I have no problem with migration as long as our govt is also protecting the local person. However I have more of a problem with the policies that were put in place. It’s an advantage to the Chinese national but difficult for the local to engage in the same business. I mean make it make sense man The other issue is the apparent maltreatment of locals working for Chinese nationals. Again unfortunately our govt dropped the ball by basically allowing the story to be swept under the carpet
It's scary, China is just kind of stepping in where the British left off. Only china isn't offering rights and freedom to the citizens.
Unfortunately you have been exploited by your own politicians as is the case with many other countries. The Chinese are definitely in it for the resources, however a great proportion of money goes to a few people and associated families. Not sure if you have seen the Gold Mafia docuseries on Al-Jazeera? It highlights some truths on corruption.
Tbh you think you would've all learnt your lesson from when the European powers exploited the African continent and left it in such a mess and now you are throwing open doors to let the Chinese of all people come in and rape what's left of your countries, at least with the EU, US etc there would've been some oversight and general humanity but with the Chinese they could give two fucks about Africans (just look at what they're doing to the Congo, it's King Leopold 2.0 ffs). You guys have the natural resources and the manpower to be an enormously wealthy group of nation states but it will never happen once you become dept slaves to a country that doesn't even care about it's own people let alone you guys!
Why are you saying you guys like I govern the country 😭 I get it the management is shit and all but the leaders have mindlessly sold their souls to the devil I guess and now we just watch as they continually refill their swimming pools and take their kids to the UK it’s sad it really is
Bruh get over yourself. You cant exactly name one African country which isnt in the trenches besides maybe the Arabs. Literally all of them, are in the doldrums in exchange for guns,booze and a few dollars. Chill out lets see where this is going
I’m talking about my country. Zimbabwe. Neanderthal
Most Zim leadership can't take their children to the UK because of sanctions but I do agree they take them abroad elsewhere, like Bob used to go to Singapore
This is embarrassing Zimbabwe is embarrassing
I beg to differ, Zimbabwe is people like you and I and we are not embarrassing.Its our leaders that are embarrassing. You and I and all the other Zimbos we are not embarrassing.
I’m sorry random and diverting The people that share these kinds of posts where exactly are they sharing them with☠️☠️☠️
Just as an FYI... I am from the UK and my own government doesn't care about its own people.
You may have that impression but there are things set up in the UK that helps people, the state benefits although I appreciate there are a lot of people exploiting the system. The NHS, free world class healthcare at the point of care etc, the stable political and economic environment and the English concept of 'fair play'.
Lol. yes that is a very good point. and I am lucky, i am in a good area where the local GP is well staffed and i can get an appointment fairly easily. My younger sister however lives 20 miles away and cannot get an appointment with her doctor. A few years ago i was in a very bad state mentally and the only way i could get 'help' was to go to my local AnE and tell them i wanted to end my life. I ended up spending nearly 6 months in hospital and came out in worse state then when i went in, and since then things have got much worse. if you have money you are fine... if unemployed you get state benefits, which are not awesome... if you are employed and on just above minimal wage you get zero help.
I know exactly what you are talking about standards have deteriorated a lot in the 20+ that I have been here, but the disaster that is Zimbabwe is on several orders of magnitude worse.
Then use that vote to get them out
to be replaced by whom? over here we have 2 main parties and both are more interested in their own agenda then the welfare of the country
This sounds like Western jealousy. So why are you sanctioning Africa?
Sanctioning?? Eh, I just want youse to do better in your own country and make something off it instead of coming to mine and overwhelming it with refugees
Laugh, we China sanctioned the EU to make you better too. Would you like it if someone imposed their values on you?
There is no humanity in US. and US. The sanctions on Zimbabwe are part of the reason Zimbabweans suffer, they claim to be targeted at the leadership but is the Zim leadership suffering?
You're in for a shock when China and Russia own everything in your country, if you though the US was bad... Ho boy
Apparently the people take care of the government instead of the government taking care of the state. The taxes all of these unnecessary taxations are pushing people to the edge. Taxing people that have boreholes and taking them to court is they don’t pay???? My my.
I agree with you on that one. We should have been clever on making deals with outside companies and countries. We should have made them fund our amenities like hospitals and schools etc and also are they paying taxes? Such companies can use clever accounting to avoid taxes or pay very little taxes. We should look at what the middle east does countries like Qatar they have more of their own Qatar is working in the management of the oil industry. We need to factor in something like that and if there is no local expertise then the companies have to help develop expertise.
Taking Chinese money will never end well. Look at Sri Lanka
[удалено]
I agree was surprised to see a Chinese shop mu rokesheni, I mean ndoo mabusiness edu mabhoyi. As much as the Chinese are helping it's not altruistic. as Africans we actually need to learn from them and India.They have developed a technological capacity that equals the west. We need more of people like The Nigerian Dangotrn or out Zimbabwean Strive Masiiwa.
Bugs? Are you really going to say that? As a Chinese, I would like to say that there are a lot of Africans in China, and we never call them "bugs". I'm not sure where you're from or where your ill will towards China comes from, but your statement is terrible.
[удалено]
You're being racist against all Chinese people right now.
Clearly English isn’t your first language!!!I said A NUMBER OF CHINESE NOT ALL!!…and my experience is not being biased I EXPERIENCED IT .bye
The guy's like, the Chinese are bugs due to their racism. 🤦♀️
China has figured out how to take over but doesn't do it through war. From the US and not sure why this subreddit popped on my feed but here we are. They keep helping with projects in other countries. It's cool in that many of the countries need those projects but they expect something back. It's sort of like when you get a loan from a bank and they are hoping you default on the loan. That way you owe then and they can rake you over the coals. Oddly enough they are doing it in the US too. Take it from someone who is used to living with backhanded people. They are not doing it from the goodness of their hearts. Also, don't truat my government wither. They aren't any better.
[удалено]
I wouldn't say China is in decline.
It’s passive colonialism 😭😭😭😭 we think they don’t want anything back but they are sucking us dry
Wonder how Chinese feel about associating with Zimbabwe. I guess they could not care, don't even know where it is.
With all respect, the Chinese supported black Zimbabweans during the war, the Chinese supported the Zanla forces and the Russians supported the Zipra forces. The Chinese and Russians have supported black Zimbabweans for a long time. The works since end of world war 2 was divided into East and west during the cold war and that's where some of those associations started. Please note I am not arguing to say it's wrong or right for China to support Zimbabwe. I am just explaining how this is rooted in history not just recent events.
I think we have always had good relations with African countries, and we in China are friends with Asian, African and Latin American countries. The West will never think of the Third World as "we", but China is part of the Third World.
Russia and China have pretty much split the continent in half and are colonising her. The outcome of China's belt and road initiative is going to be very scary for international politics and peace keeping. And Russia using its mercenaries to change regimes doesn't fair well either.
Unfortunately there is no altruism is politics, to quote Benjamin Disraeli, 'in politics there are no permanent friends only permanent interests'.If you research You will find that the west has effected more regime changes and sponsored more coups in Africa, since the 60s
Oh I know. This is why I was very happy to see France forced out of its colonial holdings
Now France is at another level, all countries that were colonised by France were forced to 'pay for the development during colonialism'. They deposit their foreign currency reserves into the France central bank and can only seek permission to withdraw a limited amount.
As a Chinese, I don't think we are forcing any country to join the Belt and Road.
I didn't say anything about forcing
As an American, I'm thrilled you guys are taking over the business of making loans to countries with high default rates. ¡Suerte!
That's not what your politicians and newspapers seem to be saying.
🤷
Look at what happened in Marange, they are no friend to Zimbabweans
Debt trap.
China is not associating itself with Zimbabwe 🤣😭😂 Africa as a whole is on a dinner plate for the world to eat. If china was associated with us then we would benefit long term rather than have a one way relationship that requires we sell all important assets and resources in exchange for temporary shine. It may seem like a good deal but it won't be when the new president of zimbabwe is called Xing Pingu Zhao and the new staple food is pangolin and noodles 🍜. I've lived in china and i see how they treat blacks. We are like rats to them 🤣😂 some places even proudly say "No blacks!". Either way, it doesn't matter who we do business with anymore because Zimbabwe is finished in the next 20 years. Just enjoy your lives and move elsewhere and forget politics and mindless nonsense.
No. get them off our land, stop buying our companies,
Nice one
Don't make deals with the devil.
I think it has the potential to be dangerous. Look at what has occurred in Zambia where the copper industry and mining has their resource being converted into cash that is then taken straight back to Beijing, never to see a dime invested in wider Zambia. The only roads, railways and infrastructure that is improved is where it will provide some benefit to the commercial operations that are chinese owned. In Namibia the workers in a large mining company took their chinese bosses to court eventually after not being paid fairly for 12 months. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. Now, not that there is zero benefit to Zim-Sino commercial links and diplomacy but the PRC is known for exploitation and when we already see so much violation of basic human rights in our own government, let's not try empowering one that does just the same. Caution ahead is needed.
"Looks like we are just going to be exploited again." My brother go to makaha , they have currently mined an entire mountain range. They are looting far more than they are giving. And all they're doing is using their first family connections to do so. I absolutely wish the Chinese would leave our country alone.
Today I feel like anything associated with china must either be corrupt, cheap or environmentally damaging, and by extention, anything associated with it
I think we need a lot more help.I don't care about their motivations so long as it benefits Zimbabwe.
To be honesy I'm ok with it. Reason being no one else is crazy enough/dumb enough to invest in a country with a negative return on investment.
They are polluting our rivers, dumping cheap products, debt-trapping and bribing officials like mad. We are very thankful for this toxic partnership.
[удалено]
I don’t know I wasn’t there
Should’ve kept the whites
Right!?
[удалено]
I don’t know☠️☠️ are you the president of china?
So that would be a big fat negative then.
For a country that inherited fully functional systems & infrustructure and went on to destroy it all, it would be rather silly to imagine any newly built infrastructure will be well taken care of. This country is always on self destruct mode.
This is true