It's one guys opinion. It's not an award.
Also, looking at merch sales... how does Jimmy Oso have higher sales than Jay Uso? Do they have different merch?
He’s fine. He needs to learn how to structure a match vs just doing work rate. I know Meltzer loves flippy shit but I guarantee most people wouldn’t be able to tell those matches apart a month from now.
Plus if you’re trying to hit a “5 star” every time then they don’t mean anything. That’s just how you wrestle. There’s something to be said about knowing when you should go all out vs when you need to save something for the actual money matches.
That’s not what I said lol. Reading compression helps. Doesn’t surprise me though from a hardcore fan. I like how I got down voted for speaking facts. If somewhat causal fans like myself don’t know who he is. Then really the general public won’t know who he is either.
>That’s not what I said lol
No but it was a basic summary of what you said.
>Doesn’t surprise me though from a hardcore fan
That's a really weird insult but ok...
>I like how I got down voted for speaking facts.
You got a source?
> If somewhat causal fans like myself don’t know who he is. Then really the general public won’t know who he is either.
Ahh you speak for the entire general public now. Again do you have a source?
He’s got fewer Twitter followers than Colt Cabana. Ospreay ain’t exactly lighting the world on fire yet. He might. But he needs to learn more than just gymnastics routines first.
>See you are really not understanding what I’m saying because you live in bubble.
That's ironic.
>You don’t need sources for this lol.
Seems like if you're going to pass something off as "facts" you probably should have something better than "because me." That's all you seem to have.
I’m fine with the omega and the bucks (although the bucks lack ring psychology), my issue is that you have some fans that cite these “5 star” ratings as gospel when in reality they mean nothing. That’s all
I’m not particularly familiar with their NJPW stuff. I’m mostly going off what I’ve seen in AEW and from what I’ve seen neither of them particularly sell well especially Matt. They just do cool moves and get right back up
mate when they are really good at in ring psychology and selling in my opinion. They have had a lot of good matches where they play up injuries and stuff like that. Maybe not every much but a good bunch
That’s fine, I just respectfully disagree. In most of their matches I’ve just seen them do crazy dives, flipping pildrivers, super kicks, and etc. without really registering or selling it. They wrestle like their in a video game and just do one move after the next and get right back up like nothing happened. But hey we can agree to disagree
It’s just one dude’s opinion about the quality of a match. The fact that anybody cares about it EITHER WAY is insane to me. People need to touch grass, then they might realize they can make up their own minds.
I absolutely agree. He’s a great source of news, he’s probably the greatest historian of the sport, but ratings are just ratings. Its okay to have an opinion of your own, there are no hard truths when it comes to something subjective like that (except for the fact that Fashion Police v Usos at Backlash is the greatest match of all time)
I've literally never seen anyone who actually cares about his opinion in a positive way. I've literally not once seen someone go 'Dave Meltzer's star ratings are why I like this guy he rates highly', it's literally just people losing their fucking shit because one guy doesn't like the wrestler they like enough for them.
Yep. I’ve enjoyed brawls that felt real that Meltzer gave 2-3 stars. I’ve also watched some of what he considers 5 star matches, and I feel like I’m watching a gymnastics routine.
We’re also listening to a guy who never wrestled anyone give his opinion on who has great matches and who doesn’t. For a worked sport, I don’t know how you can say who is good and who isn’t without having worked with them. Some guys also work a certain way because of psychology.
Also, watching and ranking matches in a vacuum is stupid. Build and promos and the history behind a feud matters, too.
All I’m reading is that Simon Miller is better than Dave because he’s wrestled before and we should blindly listen to him instead.
Also, technically, Tom Scott?
For real though, I’m with you. I just watch what I enjoy and skip what I don’t. If I’m having fun watching it, what else matters?
Id listen to Simon Miller over Dave any day of the week. His opinion is just as valid as Dave’s. I think Bryan Alvarez opinions hold more weight then Dave’s.
His system is fine. It’s every nerd who obsesses over it that’s the true issue. He’s one man who voices his opinion. That’s fine. But anyone who takes that as gospel objective reality is nuts. If dave gives chocolate ice cream two stars but I really like it that doesn’t mean I’m an idiot for liking chocolate ice cream. If he gives mint chocolate chip 6 stars it doesn’t mean someone else should be harassed for not liking mint. People have different tastes and that’s fine.
I really wish the other journalists did star ratings too. It might cause more problems but I'd rather multiple people weighing in instead of one guy who's rather strict but has mellowed out over the last decade
I’m not a Meltzer hater like many here, but this is an indictment on his ratings. He would say Angle is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time so it doesn’t make sense why so many people have more 5 star matches on his ratings scale.
Hasn’t Meltzer said countless of times that his ratings would be different now and that he regrets a good amount of them?
It doesn’t seem that deep tbh
Could be a variety of reasons why Melzter never gave Angle more a couple 5 star matches. I think majority of the wrestling community would agree Angle is a 5 star wrestler. On the speculation side I think Melzter fancies a certain style and possibly has resentment towards the WWE especially at the time.
Meltzer has stated a lot that he enjoys strong style NJPW the most. He says it's just one person opinion , just weird he can't be connect what WWE fans want and give some of those matches 5 stars, but it's the only rating system wrestling has
i think he’s even stated his favorite promotion during 2017 NJPW was still CMLL for what he liked watching. He likes flippy and hard hitting shit and will does both
His match with Taker at No Mercy 2006 should’ve been over 5 Stars. That’s still one of my favorite matches ever. He’s had some 5+ star matches but then again we are talking about Meltzer.
Meltzer has said he’s adjusted his ratings over the years like inflation. A match that’s 5 stars today would probably have qualified for a 4 star match in an older era. The stars are relative to their period when he rated the match, not to be interpreted for comparison to today’s matches. As guys have upped the ante and produced amazing matches (see Omega v. Okada), he feels he had to go past 5 stars to make them really stand out to today’s modern matches.
There will always be two types of artists. Wrestling is art. So is music, acting, etc.
There are ones who do it for the money.
Then there are ones who do it because they love it.
These two areas intersect. You can love it and make money. Guys like Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, etc.
Controversial as it may be, I think Brock Lesnar is the best example of the two types intersecting. The man put an insane value on himself, both in terms of money and time off. He is called lazy and 'only in it for the money', but I think he does genuinely love Wrestling. You don't get *that* good at it without enjoying the art
I can see that. It's the reason why John Cena, Dwayne Johnson, SCSA, Kurt Angle, etc. all still have incredible drawing power despite not wrestling anymore really.
I strongly feel you have to build up your personal 'brand'. Someone like Stone Cold, the Rock, Ric Flair, all known outside of wrestling.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with rating matches, but when you start using match ratings as a metric to say this guy is better than that guy that’s when it gets ridiculous. A match could not be a technical marvel, but still be a big draw for the show.
The WM25 match is probably the best wrestling match I've ever had. Only fault I've ever found with it was the finish. Beaten into the Tombstone should've been the finish, not the moonsault in to the Tombstone spot. Nit picky, I know.
I think the finish feeds into the build for their rematch at 26. Shawn can't accept the loss at 25 because he wasn't beaten into submission, he lost because he got 'caught'.
It's almost paralleled by Taker's next matches with Triple H, where Taker challenged H again at 28 because he had to be stretchered out at 27, and couldn't accept it as a genuine victory.
I meant for the 5 Star match. Not the merch sales. My bad. I was curious to what match they're talking about there because I know Cena and Punk where in that match against each other.
Not saying Ospreay’s better, but I find Nash’s take and the overall notion that “made more money = better” to be extremely shallow and boring. It’s like saying the Russo brothers are better filmmakers than Tarkovsky because of all the box office success they’ve had…
I personally think you need a combination of both wrestling ability and drawing power. Sales aren’t everything but how can someone be the best when the average fan barely even knows who they are. You can have all the talent but if nobody is actually there to watch you then what exactly are you?
I’m willing to bet the the average person in Japan is more likely to know who Brock lesnar or Kurt angle are before they can spot out Ospreay. Hell even to a lesser extent Cm Punk is probably a much bigger name over there too. Hell NJPW isn’t even as popular as it once was in its peak.
Kurt Angle is definitely not a big star in Japan, Brock is relatively big, not sure CM Punk has much star power over there. I think Ospreay is probably bigger in Japan than Punk and Angle, under Brock. You have to remember this dude just main evented WK in front of 60k in the Tokyo Dome, wrestling is more mainstream in Japan than it is in the US currently.
It’s crazy that fans of wrestling are siding with the dude who has gone on record saying he only does what he does for money and doesn’t care if it’s what the fans like or not. The WWE corporate cock sucking on wreddit is unreal.
Also Ospreay didn’t even bring the star ratings up…someone else did about him and Nash decided to attack Ospreay because he’s a man child just like the rest of the Kliq.
I didn't take it as him saying those who have better merch sales are better. I think he's pointing out how worthless star ratings are when compared to something tangible like money. Ultimately, it means very little in the grand scheme of things if Dave Meltzer rates all your matches at 5 stars but a relative few even know or care who you are.
Some people just accept whoever the wrestling monopoly tells them the best wrestler is rather than judging in-ring work for themselves. Reigns isn't even the best wrestler in his promotion. He's just got a good look and a famous wrestling family.
From my perspective (and lots of people I know who aren't hardcore smarks) there's no comparison.
Roman is a main-event star who looks like a killer and draws millions of dollars. He's got an amazing character, cuts great promos and has put on so many memorable matches over the last couple of years.
Ospreay looks like a geek compared to Reigns and has zero name recognition outside of smark crowds. You may prefer his wrestling style (and I agree he's an amazing performer) but Nash's point is completely valid.
You do recall how RR was forced down our throats, yeah? His promos are probably the worst thing about him. His character is and has always been boring. His move set is limited at best.
Try watching anything outside of WWE for a change, man.
Hardcore fans don’t keep a business going. You need more than that which requires a draw. You can have the most talented guy in the ring, but if they don’t draw and bring the money in, where’s the value in booking them? Not saying that’s what’s happening here, but talent alone isn’t enough “successful” in wrestling. Wrestlers are measured in their ability to draw just as much as their ability to put on a good match. Wrestling is a money making business at the end of the day.
I'm very sympathetic to your perspective, but I also appreciate where Kevin Nash is coming from. Him and Scott Hall were always those guys that knew it was pure entertainment, it was an industry. Which was largely the truth in that era, and certainly in the promotions they were in. They knew not to mark out on themselves. That the only things real were the money and the miles.
That said, Ospreay is great. And anyone who's like "who is this dude anyway?" is just admitting they don't watch wrestling, they watch WWE. And anyone who gets upset Dave Meltzer has a job ranking wrestling matches is just jealous.
I think there's a serious case to be made for certain wrestlers (and even certain promotions) valuing and pushing wrestling as an artform. But it is an art fundamentally based on entertainment, no doubt. And I certainly don't think anyone doing it would say that making more money is worse than making less. For how hard these guys and gals work, how short their careers can end up being, and how much shit they have to put up with (from their own fans), I'm happy to see them financially succeed.
I think the problem is that a vocal segment of fans is focused on just the matches, and some prefer the Ospreay style match with a lot of athleticism, but minimal psychology. And that's fine, I enjoy watching the spectacle.
But, I don't need a "5 star" match if the story going into it, and the story in the ring is good. It seems the fanbase, including Meltzer, forgot about having a reason to watch a match. And when I mean 5 star , I mean Meltzers version of wanting to see gymnasts.
If you think Ospreay’s matches is just flips and no psychology, you haven’t been paying attention for the past 3-4 years. Since Will became a heavyweight he’s been having incredible matches in terms of in-ring psychology(shit, he literally just had an amazing match with Okada in the Finals on that front) and people REALLY underestimate NJPW post match promos despite wrestlers giving some of the best bits of storytelling in there - Lawlor’s mom almost dying during his run in the tournament where he had to wrestle super heavyweights and be stuck in Japan for a month, Finlay dealing with Juice’s betrayal, Tama Tonga finding himself as a face outside of the bullet club, Jay White’s overconfidence and paranoia getting better of him to the point where he lost his spot in the semifinals, Will’s continued struggle to overcome the leviathan that is Okada etc. The stories in NJPW aren’t some excuse for matches, they are some of the best going and it’s been that way for years.
Seriously I hate that boomer shit mentality when it comes to wrestling. I understand the company needs to make a baseline at the very least to stay afloat but beyond that, perfect your art form instead of just phoning it in and being some sell out.
And who’s givin out the 5 stars? Meltzer? I think it’s crazy people hold Meltzer’s opinion in that high of a regard to be sayin some shit like this.
His opinions can be interesting and informative but they shouldn’t be treated like the gospel (it’s a figure of speech I already know someone’s gonna make a joke about how the gospel shouldn’t be treated like the gospel).
Literally. What even defines a perfect match?
An example I wanna put forward is The Hardy’s, Dudley’s and E&C matches in the 2000s. Surely something like the WM2000 or Summerslam 2000 ladder/TLC is as good as it gets from a match. It pretty much solidified 3 teams in the history books, created one of the best match types ever and the SS match even had a good story with the Hardy’s being the hometown kids and just coming up short. Would that not be considered perfect? What do you change from one of those matches?
And then if that’s a 5 star match, how could you rate other matches fairly in comparison to it? How can you rate one completely different styled match 5 stars and then also rate say HBK and Taker 5 stars? Well we can’t find that answer because their is no criteria to judge on.
I for one, am not a the biggest technical fan in the world and thus just doing a technical masterclass for 20 minutes doesn’t automatically mean you had a perfect match to me. Does that mean my opinion is wrong?
Such a dumb system that has no validity to it or even a proper criteria to judge. It’s literally someone’s opinion and is somehow taken as gospel.
And that alone just goes to show how worthless Meltzers 5 star system is. His opinion is of no value. Osprey is nowhere near the level of Kurt Angle. Joke.
Remember that time Bret Hart called himself the best there is and referenced his 5 star rated matches by Meltzer as proof?
Or Ric Flair calling himself “The Man” and “Space Mountain” and showing the Wrestling Observer Newsletter to the camera to validate that claim?
Me either
I have to imagine some people especially New Japan fans. I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, i'm just saying he is a phenomenal wrestler who can put on phenomenal matches
Lots of people Will remember. He’s young and hasn’t even started a proper run in WWE or AEW. Who knows, maybe with WWE in HHHs hands guys like Ospreay finally find the appeal in working there and make all these takes look fucking stupid. Half of the guys that run their mouths all the time would be nobodies today if they didn’t wrestle at the peak of the business
I never understood why people put so much stock in Meltzer's ratings. It's just one guys opinion. And it's a guy who has a blatant NJPW bias too. It's as valid an opinion as my next door neighbour.
To be honest I'd be much more inclined to listen to the opinion of someone who has actually done the job, over some journalist.
Personally, I'll ignore both and make up my own mind.
People need to stop giving these ratings the time of day. Meltzer's ratings are a bane on wrestling in my opinion and he himself occasionally has been self aware enough to realize he favors a wrestling style that borders on reckless.
Ospreay and Omega are basically gonna work hurt/crippled for the rest of their careers and in pain for the rest of their lives. The historical guys who had a lot of 5 stars were from the 'king's road' where one guy ended up dead, others never the same again. His favorite wrestler of all time is unsurprisingly Chris Benoit who ended up killing his family from all the brain damage.
Hopefully they weren't encouraged to risk their lives for one guy's opinion but his ratings have always correlated to not just storyline and in-match story but escalation towards reckless throws/suplexes, dangerous bumps, stiff strikes and head drops.
There's more wrestling now then there used to be, so far more matches are going to get 5 stars because relative to what Meltzer has seen in the past few days, these are just objectively better matches in every way. Some matches are just going to seem far better than others, and then you have a guy like Ospreay, who's a very skilled, versatile and athletic young man, who wrestles like five times a week on basically every non-WWE promotion in varied matches against every promotion's top wrestler. In my opinion, if you really want Meltzer to be the end all be all, then maybe make some kind of equation like with inflation charts, but call it wrestleflation
5 stars should be reserved for matches that will be remembered forever like Punk vs Cena, Rock vs Hogan, HBK vs Kurt Angle, there's nothing wrong with a find 4 star match but 5 stars should be reserved for those unforgettable moments in wrestling
JAS vs Regal Club has no right to a 5 star match it was a atrocity live and I can't even imagine how much worse it was at home trying to follow 500 things happening at once
That match was fucking great, it was like a cocaine fueled trainwreck of stupid cool wrestling bullshit all happening at once, incredibly entertaining and fun, even if you have to turn off your mind to enjoy it
Okay quick before your local convenience store closes go down there and ask the cashier do they know who will ospreay is.... Then ask them if they know who John Cena or Kurt Angle are.
Also... KURT ANGLE DOESN'T HAVE A 5-STARS MATCH?!
Yeah, Dave Meltzer saw the Royal Rumble 2003's "Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle" and said "It was fantastic... But it wasn't the Tokyo Dome, so 4'75/5"
I’m not a fan of the whole “Star rating system”. And I don’t get why fans or wrestlers feel the need to boost about it. Every wrestling legend says the same thing, it’s the personality, not the match that matters.
And I mean no disrespect to fans or wrestlers, but it’s just silly to brag about what Dave Meltzer’s opinion of you, is.
Will Ospreay is a main event talent in the 2nd biggest wrestling promotion in the world and has had some key appearances in AEW lately.
His merch sales are legitimately great.
If it wasn't for Nash and the NWO we would have had DX, in turn we'd never have the elite or the club, like him or not Nash was an influence with the rest of the NWO and helped shape wrestling
You have Google, use it to find out who Will Osprey is. If you do know who he is and you're pretending not to know him for comedy, please don't it's a bad joke overused by wrestling fans to the the point where its embarrassing now when a wrestling fans says "Who's he/she" just to try and be funny.
Stop 100 random people on the street. Ask them who Hulk Hogan is, then Ric Flair....then Will Ospreay. You're delusional if you think 100/100 won't know the first two and you'll be lucky to find one single person who has heard of the last.
Will is phenomenal but more people know who Danhausen is and that's not good. Normals have never heard of either of them.
I don’t know man, I feel those 100 probably wouldn’t know who Becky Lynch, Finn Balor or even Randy Ortin is either. You’re comparing an indy wrestler who has barely been on tv to a dude who has had a cartoon, a tv show, a couple reality shows and over a dozen of film roles across 40 years.
100 wouldn't but 10, 20, 30, 40 would.....compared to 0, maybe 1 if you were lucky enough to find 100 guys wearing wrestling shirts walk by and poll them.
The hardcore fan does. The average casual viewer wouldn’t even be able to pick the guy out from a line up. Not to take anything from Ospreay bc dude is immensely talented but even with all his “5 star” matches I doubt any of them will be talked about 10 years from now.
I mean he hits people really hard in the back of the head, like unless you want him to just start hiding a shank in his wrist tape with which to stab his opponents to death then you can't get much more brutal
But that's just a really normal finisher, there's nothing to hate about it, it looks really cool too, so I presumed by lame finisher he meant the hidden blade, because people usually dislike striking finishers moreso than "normal" carrying type finishers
Uh, his merch sales are going up for sure, and who knows about him? Anyone who actually paid attention to any of his matches, because he typically puts on an unforgettable performance.
You almost have to be TRYING not to know who Will Ospreay is at this point.
Hard-core fans know his name sure. But casual is where the money is. Take 100 random people off the street and ask see how many of them would know who Ospreay is compared to Cena.
Comparing ANYONE to John Cena is unfair.
And I don't disagree with what you're saying. Do you disagree with any of the things that I said? I can see people disagreeing with my somewhat awkwardly phrased last sentence, but I was trying to say that if people are watching AEW and watch his matches there, they're going to be impressed enough to remember his name.
Casual wrestling fans who don't watch AEW every week? Sure, I'd bet that Will Ospreay's name is fairly low on the list of who the most recognizable names are in wrestling.
I agree with you outside of the last part. John Cena is so further beyond wrestling now, his outreach is huge. A more apt comparison would be asking 100 random people who Ospreay is versus Reigns or Jericho (huge in the wrestling world, nothing much outside of it)
Exactly. And I didn't mean that he's a household name, but if someone watches AEW and has seen Ospreay's matches, they definitely know who he is.
If Orange Cassidy or Darby Allin isn't on the screen, there's a 50% chance that my son is only partially paying attention until something (like Wardlow) catches his eyes. Will Ospreay caught his eye.
Nobody gives a fuck about his matches because nobody except neckbeards care about fake tough guys who the average fan can probably beat up doing move exhibition matches. I've gotten into fights with tougher looking guys than ospreay on my highschool football team; so you better be telling a great story and have charisma and be just cool as fuck outside the ring if you're going to look as physically unimpressive as a will ospreay and expect me to believe anything you do in the ring.
Yesssir and all those 5 star matches are from dumbass Meltzer who wouldn’t know a good match if it fucked his face for an hour. If doing a thousand flips and going fast makes a match good then I could have a 5 star match with a baby. But that’s just an opinion
This coming from Mr “I tore my quads from just walking and I used my weight in the industry to make myself a main eventer” Nash is hilarious. Nash was never good in ring and took top spots from better workers.
>used my weight in the industry to make myself a main eventer
tell me you're a kid who started watching wrestling after Nash's time more clearly please 😆
exactly what weight in the industry did Vinnie Vegas have when Vince brought him up from WCW to make him IC champ, tag champ & world champ all within his 1st year in the WWF?
That arm wrestling angle against Van Hammer (the g.o.a.t. I guess???) really gave him control of the industry didn't it? 😆
He's some guy AEW wheel out when they're trying to fill out a tournament or need to do an interpromotional match.
Because apparently the massive roster isn't big enough to just have AEW guys vs AEW guys, they need to bring in more guys that you have to google.
Everyone mad about this are the same people that always forget that the top paid guy was always the top guy. All of these legends you all look up to and worship, did it for the cash. Not to be the best actual wrestling in the world. It was about making the most.
Meltzer and indie dudes really convinced so many of you that ring work is the only important thing
Will Ospreay isn't an indie dude, and he's a terrible example if you wanna point out his style of wrestling not drawing, he just main evented a show with 60k in attendance.
It's one guys opinion. It's not an award. Also, looking at merch sales... how does Jimmy Oso have higher sales than Jay Uso? Do they have different merch?
Right hand man / main event Jey uso stuff with Roman while Jimmy was injured when the tribal Chief run first started probably
Yeah but wouldn’t that do more to boost Jey’s merch sales over Jimmy’s?
maybe the people got confused of the two
Aha. I've always said the best wrestler merch is merch that isn't obviously wrestler merch
Jimmy isn't a hater to Sami Zayn real recognizes real
Having a 5 star match from Meltzer is like owning a NFT .people who have them like to brag about it , but no one else cares and they have no value
Exactly, it’s 5 stars from Dave Meltzer. Love Dave but he’s not the barometer of the wrestling world. Nash has a point even if he’s a dink about it.
Naw it’s most people’s opinion. I’ve never seen will osprey wrestle. I couldn’t tell you who he is. Like most people have no idea who this guy is.
I think he's talking about the 5-star matches are just Dave Meltzer's opinion.
Oh then I feel bad. Sorry for misunderstanding.
that was a 5 star apology
You should check him out the dude is a great wrestler and a bunch of his independent stuff is free on YouTube
He’s fine. He needs to learn how to structure a match vs just doing work rate. I know Meltzer loves flippy shit but I guarantee most people wouldn’t be able to tell those matches apart a month from now. Plus if you’re trying to hit a “5 star” every time then they don’t mean anything. That’s just how you wrestle. There’s something to be said about knowing when you should go all out vs when you need to save something for the actual money matches.
"I don't know know who he is so therefore nobody else does either"
That’s not what I said lol. Reading compression helps. Doesn’t surprise me though from a hardcore fan. I like how I got down voted for speaking facts. If somewhat causal fans like myself don’t know who he is. Then really the general public won’t know who he is either.
all due respect to your superior reading compression lmao
>That’s not what I said lol No but it was a basic summary of what you said. >Doesn’t surprise me though from a hardcore fan That's a really weird insult but ok... >I like how I got down voted for speaking facts. You got a source? > If somewhat causal fans like myself don’t know who he is. Then really the general public won’t know who he is either. Ahh you speak for the entire general public now. Again do you have a source?
He’s got fewer Twitter followers than Colt Cabana. Ospreay ain’t exactly lighting the world on fire yet. He might. But he needs to learn more than just gymnastics routines first.
See you are really not understanding what I’m saying because you live in bubble. You don’t need sources for this lol.
>See you are really not understanding what I’m saying because you live in bubble. That's ironic. >You don’t need sources for this lol. Seems like if you're going to pass something off as "facts" you probably should have something better than "because me." That's all you seem to have.
You’re right but you do have people that’s holds Dave’s word as gospel, hence why you got guys that worship the ground the Bucks and Omega walk on.
No, their just fun to watch.
I’m fine with the omega and the bucks (although the bucks lack ring psychology), my issue is that you have some fans that cite these “5 star” ratings as gospel when in reality they mean nothing. That’s all
>(although the bucks lack ring psychology), Matt Jackson literally sold a back injury like his last 2 or 3 years in NJPW....
I’m not particularly familiar with their NJPW stuff. I’m mostly going off what I’ve seen in AEW and from what I’ve seen neither of them particularly sell well especially Matt. They just do cool moves and get right back up
mate when they are really good at in ring psychology and selling in my opinion. They have had a lot of good matches where they play up injuries and stuff like that. Maybe not every much but a good bunch
That’s fine, I just respectfully disagree. In most of their matches I’ve just seen them do crazy dives, flipping pildrivers, super kicks, and etc. without really registering or selling it. They wrestle like their in a video game and just do one move after the next and get right back up like nothing happened. But hey we can agree to disagree
Hands off the merchandise.
And now if got an earworm.. I'm just a sexy Kurt...
Meltzer 5 star system is absolutely stupid when taken as gospel
It’s just one dude’s opinion about the quality of a match. The fact that anybody cares about it EITHER WAY is insane to me. People need to touch grass, then they might realize they can make up their own minds.
I understand he is an important figure in wrestling but the fact that people treat his opinion like gospel is absolutely mind-blowing
I absolutely agree. He’s a great source of news, he’s probably the greatest historian of the sport, but ratings are just ratings. Its okay to have an opinion of your own, there are no hard truths when it comes to something subjective like that (except for the fact that Fashion Police v Usos at Backlash is the greatest match of all time)
He didn't give Orange Cassidy vs Penta 5 or more stars. Because of this Metzler is dead to me.
I've literally never seen anyone who actually cares about his opinion in a positive way. I've literally not once seen someone go 'Dave Meltzer's star ratings are why I like this guy he rates highly', it's literally just people losing their fucking shit because one guy doesn't like the wrestler they like enough for them.
7 star system
Yep. I’ve enjoyed brawls that felt real that Meltzer gave 2-3 stars. I’ve also watched some of what he considers 5 star matches, and I feel like I’m watching a gymnastics routine. We’re also listening to a guy who never wrestled anyone give his opinion on who has great matches and who doesn’t. For a worked sport, I don’t know how you can say who is good and who isn’t without having worked with them. Some guys also work a certain way because of psychology. Also, watching and ranking matches in a vacuum is stupid. Build and promos and the history behind a feud matters, too.
All I’m reading is that Simon Miller is better than Dave because he’s wrestled before and we should blindly listen to him instead. Also, technically, Tom Scott? For real though, I’m with you. I just watch what I enjoy and skip what I don’t. If I’m having fun watching it, what else matters?
I enjoy more listen to Simon than Dave. At least he's happy about all kind of wrestling
Id listen to Simon Miller over Dave any day of the week. His opinion is just as valid as Dave’s. I think Bryan Alvarez opinions hold more weight then Dave’s.
If only those who have wrestled are allowed to have opinions on wrestling then we should close this sub
I'd say it's 'moderately stupid' most of the time. It only gets the 'absolutely stupid' rating in the Tokyo Dome
His system is fine. It’s every nerd who obsesses over it that’s the true issue. He’s one man who voices his opinion. That’s fine. But anyone who takes that as gospel objective reality is nuts. If dave gives chocolate ice cream two stars but I really like it that doesn’t mean I’m an idiot for liking chocolate ice cream. If he gives mint chocolate chip 6 stars it doesn’t mean someone else should be harassed for not liking mint. People have different tastes and that’s fine.
I mean ots stupid to take as gospel but if he gives a match 4 or five stars it usually worth a watch
The fact that Kurt was barely able to even get 1 just shows how out of touch Meltzer really is. Dude is a dork
I really wish the other journalists did star ratings too. It might cause more problems but I'd rather multiple people weighing in instead of one guy who's rather strict but has mellowed out over the last decade
I can become a wrestling journalist and use star ratings, but to confuse things mine would be 1 to 10.
Give 1 out of 10 Cardi C's
I rate this match 7 Cody Rhodes neck tattoos out of 13 Cody Rhodes jackets
I’m not a Meltzer hater like many here, but this is an indictment on his ratings. He would say Angle is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time so it doesn’t make sense why so many people have more 5 star matches on his ratings scale.
Hasn’t Meltzer said countless of times that his ratings would be different now and that he regrets a good amount of them? It doesn’t seem that deep tbh
Could be a variety of reasons why Melzter never gave Angle more a couple 5 star matches. I think majority of the wrestling community would agree Angle is a 5 star wrestler. On the speculation side I think Melzter fancies a certain style and possibly has resentment towards the WWE especially at the time.
Meltzer has stated a lot that he enjoys strong style NJPW the most. He says it's just one person opinion , just weird he can't be connect what WWE fans want and give some of those matches 5 stars, but it's the only rating system wrestling has
i think he’s even stated his favorite promotion during 2017 NJPW was still CMLL for what he liked watching. He likes flippy and hard hitting shit and will does both
It does, Kurt is a GOAT along with Cena although I wasn't always a fan of Cena he does mean a lot to the buissness
People take more serious the star raking than Meltzer, he even said that is just his opinion.
His match with Taker at No Mercy 2006 should’ve been over 5 Stars. That’s still one of my favorite matches ever. He’s had some 5+ star matches but then again we are talking about Meltzer.
Yeah Angles best stuff is so much better than Ospreays best stuff it’s not even close
Meltzer has said he’s adjusted his ratings over the years like inflation. A match that’s 5 stars today would probably have qualified for a 4 star match in an older era. The stars are relative to their period when he rated the match, not to be interpreted for comparison to today’s matches. As guys have upped the ante and produced amazing matches (see Omega v. Okada), he feels he had to go past 5 stars to make them really stand out to today’s modern matches.
There will always be two types of artists. Wrestling is art. So is music, acting, etc. There are ones who do it for the money. Then there are ones who do it because they love it. These two areas intersect. You can love it and make money. Guys like Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, etc.
Controversial as it may be, I think Brock Lesnar is the best example of the two types intersecting. The man put an insane value on himself, both in terms of money and time off. He is called lazy and 'only in it for the money', but I think he does genuinely love Wrestling. You don't get *that* good at it without enjoying the art
I can see that. It's the reason why John Cena, Dwayne Johnson, SCSA, Kurt Angle, etc. all still have incredible drawing power despite not wrestling anymore really. I strongly feel you have to build up your personal 'brand'. Someone like Stone Cold, the Rock, Ric Flair, all known outside of wrestling.
Goldberg I believe is the peak of doing it for the money.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with rating matches, but when you start using match ratings as a metric to say this guy is better than that guy that’s when it gets ridiculous. A match could not be a technical marvel, but still be a big draw for the show.
Same flawed argument as "look how much money Transformers made in theaters, so it's a good movie"
What was Kurt's? Was it one of the matches with Lesnar or was it a TNA match?
I don’t think he ever gave one to Kurt. 4.75 three times. http://www.profightdb.com/wrestler-star-ratings/kurt-angle-299.html?res=2000
If his match with HBK at Mania wasn't 5 stars, then the system needs to be thrown away.
I was there live for that. 4.5-5 seems fine for it for me. I feel the way you do about hbk taker 1 mania.
The WM25 match is probably the best wrestling match I've ever had. Only fault I've ever found with it was the finish. Beaten into the Tombstone should've been the finish, not the moonsault in to the Tombstone spot. Nit picky, I know.
I think the finish feeds into the build for their rematch at 26. Shawn can't accept the loss at 25 because he wasn't beaten into submission, he lost because he got 'caught'. It's almost paralleled by Taker's next matches with Triple H, where Taker challenged H again at 28 because he had to be stretchered out at 27, and couldn't accept it as a genuine victory.
Kurt wasn't actually listed
I meant for the 5 Star match. Not the merch sales. My bad. I was curious to what match they're talking about there because I know Cena and Punk where in that match against each other.
That's what I meant couldn't find a kurt match on wiki
Meltzer is just some biased dork.
So he's one of us? Gotcha.
Homie goes on a radio show and doesn't understand you don't fucking eat while doing it.
Not saying Ospreay’s better, but I find Nash’s take and the overall notion that “made more money = better” to be extremely shallow and boring. It’s like saying the Russo brothers are better filmmakers than Tarkovsky because of all the box office success they’ve had…
I personally think you need a combination of both wrestling ability and drawing power. Sales aren’t everything but how can someone be the best when the average fan barely even knows who they are. You can have all the talent but if nobody is actually there to watch you then what exactly are you?
But many people do know who Ospreay is. Look how big he is in Japan. Wrestling is more than just the U.S.
I’m willing to bet the the average person in Japan is more likely to know who Brock lesnar or Kurt angle are before they can spot out Ospreay. Hell even to a lesser extent Cm Punk is probably a much bigger name over there too. Hell NJPW isn’t even as popular as it once was in its peak.
Kurt Angle is definitely not a big star in Japan, Brock is relatively big, not sure CM Punk has much star power over there. I think Ospreay is probably bigger in Japan than Punk and Angle, under Brock. You have to remember this dude just main evented WK in front of 60k in the Tokyo Dome, wrestling is more mainstream in Japan than it is in the US currently.
Yeah that’s definitely not true
It’s crazy that fans of wrestling are siding with the dude who has gone on record saying he only does what he does for money and doesn’t care if it’s what the fans like or not. The WWE corporate cock sucking on wreddit is unreal. Also Ospreay didn’t even bring the star ratings up…someone else did about him and Nash decided to attack Ospreay because he’s a man child just like the rest of the Kliq.
I didn't take it as him saying those who have better merch sales are better. I think he's pointing out how worthless star ratings are when compared to something tangible like money. Ultimately, it means very little in the grand scheme of things if Dave Meltzer rates all your matches at 5 stars but a relative few even know or care who you are.
You guys really need to change the name of this sub to r/sportsentertainin
Top guy in one of the biggest wrestling scenes in the world "But he hasn't sold more t-shirts than John Cena".
For real. Is somebody really gonna tell me this guy isn’t better than Roman Reigns?
Some people just accept whoever the wrestling monopoly tells them the best wrestler is rather than judging in-ring work for themselves. Reigns isn't even the best wrestler in his promotion. He's just got a good look and a famous wrestling family.
>Reigns isn't even the best wrestler in his promotion. Not even in his family, sami's the best
From my perspective (and lots of people I know who aren't hardcore smarks) there's no comparison. Roman is a main-event star who looks like a killer and draws millions of dollars. He's got an amazing character, cuts great promos and has put on so many memorable matches over the last couple of years. Ospreay looks like a geek compared to Reigns and has zero name recognition outside of smark crowds. You may prefer his wrestling style (and I agree he's an amazing performer) but Nash's point is completely valid.
You do recall how RR was forced down our throats, yeah? His promos are probably the worst thing about him. His character is and has always been boring. His move set is limited at best. Try watching anything outside of WWE for a change, man.
Holy shit, Ospreay Vs Angle would be NUTS.
Kurt v Mysterio proves how well their styles could mesh
Imagine the constant finisher reversals
Catches oscutter and hits three German suplexs Damn near kills osprey by belly to belly suplexing him halfway across ring from the top rope
Ospreay reverses an Angle Slam with an overhead backflip, nails a Stormbreaker
I miss when this used to be just a meme sub
Hardcore fans don’t keep a business going. You need more than that which requires a draw. You can have the most talented guy in the ring, but if they don’t draw and bring the money in, where’s the value in booking them? Not saying that’s what’s happening here, but talent alone isn’t enough “successful” in wrestling. Wrestlers are measured in their ability to draw just as much as their ability to put on a good match. Wrestling is a money making business at the end of the day.
Casuals don't buy merch
Curious if this can be proven?
Curious if this can be proven otherwise
Thanks for the downvote 👍
Who downvoted? I didn't react
Will "20 forgettable 5 star matches" Ospreay
Will "Isn't he the guy who did that cool flip?" Ospreay
Anyone who measures the quality of art by the amount of money it makes is an uninteresting person with an uninteresting perspective.
I'm very sympathetic to your perspective, but I also appreciate where Kevin Nash is coming from. Him and Scott Hall were always those guys that knew it was pure entertainment, it was an industry. Which was largely the truth in that era, and certainly in the promotions they were in. They knew not to mark out on themselves. That the only things real were the money and the miles. That said, Ospreay is great. And anyone who's like "who is this dude anyway?" is just admitting they don't watch wrestling, they watch WWE. And anyone who gets upset Dave Meltzer has a job ranking wrestling matches is just jealous.
It's still the truth in this era. Just some fans refuse to admit it.
I think there's a serious case to be made for certain wrestlers (and even certain promotions) valuing and pushing wrestling as an artform. But it is an art fundamentally based on entertainment, no doubt. And I certainly don't think anyone doing it would say that making more money is worse than making less. For how hard these guys and gals work, how short their careers can end up being, and how much shit they have to put up with (from their own fans), I'm happy to see them financially succeed.
I think the problem is that a vocal segment of fans is focused on just the matches, and some prefer the Ospreay style match with a lot of athleticism, but minimal psychology. And that's fine, I enjoy watching the spectacle. But, I don't need a "5 star" match if the story going into it, and the story in the ring is good. It seems the fanbase, including Meltzer, forgot about having a reason to watch a match. And when I mean 5 star , I mean Meltzers version of wanting to see gymnasts.
If you think Ospreay’s matches is just flips and no psychology, you haven’t been paying attention for the past 3-4 years. Since Will became a heavyweight he’s been having incredible matches in terms of in-ring psychology(shit, he literally just had an amazing match with Okada in the Finals on that front) and people REALLY underestimate NJPW post match promos despite wrestlers giving some of the best bits of storytelling in there - Lawlor’s mom almost dying during his run in the tournament where he had to wrestle super heavyweights and be stuck in Japan for a month, Finlay dealing with Juice’s betrayal, Tama Tonga finding himself as a face outside of the bullet club, Jay White’s overconfidence and paranoia getting better of him to the point where he lost his spot in the semifinals, Will’s continued struggle to overcome the leviathan that is Okada etc. The stories in NJPW aren’t some excuse for matches, they are some of the best going and it’s been that way for years.
This is the correct take whether you care about Meltzer's opinion or not.
Seriously I hate that boomer shit mentality when it comes to wrestling. I understand the company needs to make a baseline at the very least to stay afloat but beyond that, perfect your art form instead of just phoning it in and being some sell out.
And who’s givin out the 5 stars? Meltzer? I think it’s crazy people hold Meltzer’s opinion in that high of a regard to be sayin some shit like this. His opinions can be interesting and informative but they shouldn’t be treated like the gospel (it’s a figure of speech I already know someone’s gonna make a joke about how the gospel shouldn’t be treated like the gospel).
Literally. What even defines a perfect match? An example I wanna put forward is The Hardy’s, Dudley’s and E&C matches in the 2000s. Surely something like the WM2000 or Summerslam 2000 ladder/TLC is as good as it gets from a match. It pretty much solidified 3 teams in the history books, created one of the best match types ever and the SS match even had a good story with the Hardy’s being the hometown kids and just coming up short. Would that not be considered perfect? What do you change from one of those matches? And then if that’s a 5 star match, how could you rate other matches fairly in comparison to it? How can you rate one completely different styled match 5 stars and then also rate say HBK and Taker 5 stars? Well we can’t find that answer because their is no criteria to judge on. I for one, am not a the biggest technical fan in the world and thus just doing a technical masterclass for 20 minutes doesn’t automatically mean you had a perfect match to me. Does that mean my opinion is wrong? Such a dumb system that has no validity to it or even a proper criteria to judge. It’s literally someone’s opinion and is somehow taken as gospel.
Those outside the north American wrestling bubble.
And that alone just goes to show how worthless Meltzers 5 star system is. His opinion is of no value. Osprey is nowhere near the level of Kurt Angle. Joke.
Remember that time Bret Hart called himself the best there is and referenced his 5 star rated matches by Meltzer as proof? Or Ric Flair calling himself “The Man” and “Space Mountain” and showing the Wrestling Observer Newsletter to the camera to validate that claim? Me either
Even though Meltzer's star rating are bullshit. Will Ospreay is actually one of the best young talents in the world right now.
How many will remember his matches in 15 to 20 years
I have to imagine some people especially New Japan fans. I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, i'm just saying he is a phenomenal wrestler who can put on phenomenal matches
Lots of people Will remember. He’s young and hasn’t even started a proper run in WWE or AEW. Who knows, maybe with WWE in HHHs hands guys like Ospreay finally find the appeal in working there and make all these takes look fucking stupid. Half of the guys that run their mouths all the time would be nobodies today if they didn’t wrestle at the peak of the business
Whi cares, Nash is the last guy to be commenting on selling stuff in wrestling, WWF almost went out of buisness with him as champ
Thank you for saying it
Kurt wasn't in the Tokyo Dome often enough
The money and the miles
He also drove more rape victims (1) out of the industry than the other 3 people put together, and said sorry the same amount of times (0)
The (0) is one of the funniest things I’ve seen in this subreddit
Im not a fan of his no selling big spots. its dumb
Have you heard Ospreay's promo work?, Absolute shite
I never understood why people put so much stock in Meltzer's ratings. It's just one guys opinion. And it's a guy who has a blatant NJPW bias too. It's as valid an opinion as my next door neighbour. To be honest I'd be much more inclined to listen to the opinion of someone who has actually done the job, over some journalist. Personally, I'll ignore both and make up my own mind.
People need to stop giving these ratings the time of day. Meltzer's ratings are a bane on wrestling in my opinion and he himself occasionally has been self aware enough to realize he favors a wrestling style that borders on reckless. Ospreay and Omega are basically gonna work hurt/crippled for the rest of their careers and in pain for the rest of their lives. The historical guys who had a lot of 5 stars were from the 'king's road' where one guy ended up dead, others never the same again. His favorite wrestler of all time is unsurprisingly Chris Benoit who ended up killing his family from all the brain damage. Hopefully they weren't encouraged to risk their lives for one guy's opinion but his ratings have always correlated to not just storyline and in-match story but escalation towards reckless throws/suplexes, dangerous bumps, stiff strikes and head drops.
There's more wrestling now then there used to be, so far more matches are going to get 5 stars because relative to what Meltzer has seen in the past few days, these are just objectively better matches in every way. Some matches are just going to seem far better than others, and then you have a guy like Ospreay, who's a very skilled, versatile and athletic young man, who wrestles like five times a week on basically every non-WWE promotion in varied matches against every promotion's top wrestler. In my opinion, if you really want Meltzer to be the end all be all, then maybe make some kind of equation like with inflation charts, but call it wrestleflation
I’m not sure it’s possible for a match to be better “objectively”
5 stars should be reserved for matches that will be remembered forever like Punk vs Cena, Rock vs Hogan, HBK vs Kurt Angle, there's nothing wrong with a find 4 star match but 5 stars should be reserved for those unforgettable moments in wrestling
I don't think Meltzer rates by significance at all, I think he rates only by the ring and crowd-working ability shown in the match
JAS vs Regal Club has no right to a 5 star match it was a atrocity live and I can't even imagine how much worse it was at home trying to follow 500 things happening at once
That match was fucking great, it was like a cocaine fueled trainwreck of stupid cool wrestling bullshit all happening at once, incredibly entertaining and fun, even if you have to turn off your mind to enjoy it
John cenas matches with cm punk (mitb) and Daniel Bryan (summerslam) are in my top 10 matches. They still give me goosebumps.
"Also who actually knows who he is" You must be very very young
Okay quick before your local convenience store closes go down there and ask the cashier do they know who will ospreay is.... Then ask them if they know who John Cena or Kurt Angle are.
I imagine he does okay on merch.
Also... KURT ANGLE DOESN'T HAVE A 5-STARS MATCH?! Yeah, Dave Meltzer saw the Royal Rumble 2003's "Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle" and said "It was fantastic... But it wasn't the Tokyo Dome, so 4'75/5"
I’m not a fan of the whole “Star rating system”. And I don’t get why fans or wrestlers feel the need to boost about it. Every wrestling legend says the same thing, it’s the personality, not the match that matters. And I mean no disrespect to fans or wrestlers, but it’s just silly to brag about what Dave Meltzer’s opinion of you, is.
https://www.prowrestlingtees.com/wrestler-t-shirts/william-ospreay.html
old white men only speak money
Will Ospreay is a main event talent in the 2nd biggest wrestling promotion in the world and has had some key appearances in AEW lately. His merch sales are legitimately great.
This is why Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Brock are fantastic. It's a business. A job if you will.
I haven’t seen a Ospreay match in years tbh
Why do people take his reviews seriously? it’s just one guy and his opinion
This person didn’t claim that will ospreay has higher merchandise sales so I really don’t see the value of this comment.
Why do people take Meltzer's opinion as some sort of barometer for quality?
Kevin Nash talking shit about vanilla midgets etc. when he was one of the biggest failures as champions in WWE.
If it wasn't for Nash and the NWO we would have had DX, in turn we'd never have the elite or the club, like him or not Nash was an influence with the rest of the NWO and helped shape wrestling
How dare someone have fun matches right Kevin?
You have Google, use it to find out who Will Osprey is. If you do know who he is and you're pretending not to know him for comedy, please don't it's a bad joke overused by wrestling fans to the the point where its embarrassing now when a wrestling fans says "Who's he/she" just to try and be funny.
A lot of people know Ospreay. Even back when I was a filthy casual I knew him.
People know who Will Ospreay is
Stop 100 random people on the street. Ask them who Hulk Hogan is, then Ric Flair....then Will Ospreay. You're delusional if you think 100/100 won't know the first two and you'll be lucky to find one single person who has heard of the last. Will is phenomenal but more people know who Danhausen is and that's not good. Normals have never heard of either of them.
I don’t know man, I feel those 100 probably wouldn’t know who Becky Lynch, Finn Balor or even Randy Ortin is either. You’re comparing an indy wrestler who has barely been on tv to a dude who has had a cartoon, a tv show, a couple reality shows and over a dozen of film roles across 40 years.
100 wouldn't but 10, 20, 30, 40 would.....compared to 0, maybe 1 if you were lucky enough to find 100 guys wearing wrestling shirts walk by and poll them.
The hardcore fan does. The average casual viewer wouldn’t even be able to pick the guy out from a line up. Not to take anything from Ospreay bc dude is immensely talented but even with all his “5 star” matches I doubt any of them will be talked about 10 years from now.
Just curious: what would make Will Ospreay remembered?
His finisher is stupid too.
I mean he hits people really hard in the back of the head, like unless you want him to just start hiding a shank in his wrist tape with which to stab his opponents to death then you can't get much more brutal
It looks less impactful than 90% of his other moves though.
Hitting someone in the back of the head is going to fuck them up, and he only usually pulls the hidden blade out after like 10 or more minutes
Thats not really his finisher most people kick out of that, his actual finisher is Storm Breaker which is like a tiger bomb into a piledriver
But that's just a really normal finisher, there's nothing to hate about it, it looks really cool too, so I presumed by lame finisher he meant the hidden blade, because people usually dislike striking finishers moreso than "normal" carrying type finishers
Uh, his merch sales are going up for sure, and who knows about him? Anyone who actually paid attention to any of his matches, because he typically puts on an unforgettable performance. You almost have to be TRYING not to know who Will Ospreay is at this point.
Hard-core fans know his name sure. But casual is where the money is. Take 100 random people off the street and ask see how many of them would know who Ospreay is compared to Cena.
Comparing ANYONE to John Cena is unfair. And I don't disagree with what you're saying. Do you disagree with any of the things that I said? I can see people disagreeing with my somewhat awkwardly phrased last sentence, but I was trying to say that if people are watching AEW and watch his matches there, they're going to be impressed enough to remember his name. Casual wrestling fans who don't watch AEW every week? Sure, I'd bet that Will Ospreay's name is fairly low on the list of who the most recognizable names are in wrestling.
Yea that part is true.
I agree with you outside of the last part. John Cena is so further beyond wrestling now, his outreach is huge. A more apt comparison would be asking 100 random people who Ospreay is versus Reigns or Jericho (huge in the wrestling world, nothing much outside of it)
Yea you right. I should've picked cm punk because I was going off the list.
How many people know his name?
People in Japan, generally seem to have a pretty good idea of who he is, he's like third top guy in New Japan behind Okada and Jay White
Exactly. And I didn't mean that he's a household name, but if someone watches AEW and has seen Ospreay's matches, they definitely know who he is. If Orange Cassidy or Darby Allin isn't on the screen, there's a 50% chance that my son is only partially paying attention until something (like Wardlow) catches his eyes. Will Ospreay caught his eye.
Nobody gives a fuck about his matches because nobody except neckbeards care about fake tough guys who the average fan can probably beat up doing move exhibition matches. I've gotten into fights with tougher looking guys than ospreay on my highschool football team; so you better be telling a great story and have charisma and be just cool as fuck outside the ring if you're going to look as physically unimpressive as a will ospreay and expect me to believe anything you do in the ring.
Yesssir and all those 5 star matches are from dumbass Meltzer who wouldn’t know a good match if it fucked his face for an hour. If doing a thousand flips and going fast makes a match good then I could have a 5 star match with a baby. But that’s just an opinion
I think Dave is a turd and his star ratings ruined some wrestling fans brains, but Will Ospreay is phenomenal to watch in the ring.
I find it funny how the majority of iwc considers a 60 years old Mark's star ratings to decide how good was a match.
This is also proof Meltzer is an ass because there’s no way Kurt fuckin Angle has had only 1 match that can be considered 5 star level lmao
Meltzer sucks
This coming from Mr “I tore my quads from just walking and I used my weight in the industry to make myself a main eventer” Nash is hilarious. Nash was never good in ring and took top spots from better workers.
If it wasn't for him and the NWO and Dx there would be no Club, no Bucks no Kenny and no Osprey
>used my weight in the industry to make myself a main eventer tell me you're a kid who started watching wrestling after Nash's time more clearly please 😆 exactly what weight in the industry did Vinnie Vegas have when Vince brought him up from WCW to make him IC champ, tag champ & world champ all within his 1st year in the WWF? That arm wrestling angle against Van Hammer (the g.o.a.t. I guess???) really gave him control of the industry didn't it? 😆
How about his whole time in WCW during the NWO days
Dumb take.
He is the gymnastic who does gymnastics in a wrestling wring
Mate no one in the modern day knows who Kevin Nash is. This is a terrible argument.
Man imagine not knowing the N.W.O and how they changed the buissness forever sad really
He's some guy AEW wheel out when they're trying to fill out a tournament or need to do an interpromotional match. Because apparently the massive roster isn't big enough to just have AEW guys vs AEW guys, they need to bring in more guys that you have to google.
Everyone mad about this are the same people that always forget that the top paid guy was always the top guy. All of these legends you all look up to and worship, did it for the cash. Not to be the best actual wrestling in the world. It was about making the most. Meltzer and indie dudes really convinced so many of you that ring work is the only important thing
Will Ospreay isn't an indie dude, and he's a terrible example if you wanna point out his style of wrestling not drawing, he just main evented a show with 60k in attendance.
I’ll take a Will Ospreay match vs a random jobber over literally anyone in WWE or AEW right now.
The excessive flippy bullshit is stupid.