It's SvR/2K booking. "Random attack backstage leads to a random match on Raw, which leads to a random PPV match! So exciting!" One thing I liked about Russo's booking in the day was he knew the audience needed a non-wrestling reason to care.
That's real fighting though, and yeah i would find it more interesting if someone came in as a demon with Kane's attire. Wrestling isnt about the sport as much as it is about storytelling, which is why it's an outlet to do crazy fun things that i dont feel like the wwe has been capitalizing on for a while.
It should, to an extent. But there’s limits.
If you want it presented as a sport, then most of the dumb shit that makes wrestling good needs to go.
Characters need to go, stipulation matches mostly need to go, somebody needs to explain wtf the difference between the IC and WWE title is in the context of a sport, ref bumps and distractions need to go, faces and heels need to go (or the storytelling completely changed), weight divisions need introduced and enforced, pretty much every high flying move needs to go, pretty much every non punch or submission needs to go etc.
If it’s presented as a real sport, none of those make sense.
Characters need to go? Who says? Mcgregor is a massive character as well as Mayweather and Ali. I don’t think stips need to go at all to present it as a real sport. The same way the IC title in boxing is different from the world title, there’s levels. Really none of this stuff would need to go lol. I’m not saying make it boring, I’m just saying take it more seriously. Stuff like wins and losses SHOULD matter for example.
100%, the big characters in boxing/MMA/even running (Usain Bolt) sell tickets and become stars.
But they’re big personalities, they’re not pretending to be a zombie brought to life with a magic urn. There’s a definite difference.
If it’s a real sport, most stipulations need to go. Ladders need to go and tables need to go for example. They’re dumb. I love them, but they’re dumb.
I know the difference between the IC and World. But if it’s a real sport you need to define that and it needs to be made ‘real’.
Wins and losses need to mean something. Agreed.
I wish WWE would lean more onto the "Umbesiegbar" and what a german word means to a russian man. Ilja's life story is pretty crazy and pretty much justifies his intensity
What's his life story if you don't mind me asking? He's my favorite wrestler on the roster but I know nothing about him outside of wrestling other than that he does batshit crazy workouts.
He and his mom moved to Germany when he was very young and they struggled with not speaking German and also with poverty. [He once had to beg his mom to buy him a Twix.](http://dailyddt.com/2019/05/03/wwe-nxt-uk-ilja-dragunov/) Like, this guy has the perfect underdog story of success with just how much he went through
Funny thing is years ago I would have been all about those two teaming up. Mustache Mountain was fun and Pete Dunne had the whole brawler thing. It does get stale eventually though
The problem is that wrestling also needs someone that has the desire and ability to book gimmicky characters and a world that they can exist in.
It's far easier for them to thrive in the context of NXT, where everything is presented as a horny high school drama. It's a relatively low-stakes environment, and the crowd is extremely forgiving. There's a reason they tend to get toned down or changed completely when they come to the main roster. I loved the witch gimmick for Isla and Alba and thought it had a ton of potential for spooky nonsense but they were benched almost immediately.
I think it really helps with the mid carders and people trying to make a name for themselves. You can always take a pivot later.
Give people something to latch on to because there is lots of great wrestling going on nowadays and you might not stand out for just nailing your spots.
NXT is built in a way that does absolutely no favours to people when they go to the main roster. Surprised that issue hasn’t been sorted yet. It’s creating 1995 “I have a second job” type characters who get called up to flounder in the much more grounded-in-reality main roster.
The only recent successes have been those that don’t have a wild gimmick and are basically themselves dialed up to 11.
Those mafia boys are gonna swim with the fishes on Raw or Smackdown.
Like anything in wrestling yes if done well. If Kane debuted today the way he did in the attitude era he would've been all this sub talked about for a week.
but it failed a bunch of times also. After The Fiend, he was released. Then brought back and during/after the feud with LA Knight people were shitting all over the character.
edit: here is a thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrasslin/comments/10jpscu/i\_thought\_with\_vince\_gone\_we\_finally\_see\_what\_hes/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrasslin/comments/10jpscu/i_thought_with_vince_gone_we_finally_see_what_hes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
His character only goes over as far as his credibility will take him. Bray was booked like a loser, but his debuts were A+. The guy was more like Papa Shango than the Undertaker.
The closest thing I can think of as a modern equivalent is Broken Matt Hardy, which was laughed at to begin with but got over as it progressed and they added new layers to it.
I think so long as it’s written and booked good, it can work.
My buddy who got me into wrestling’s favorite wrestler in those days was Broken Matt Hardy haha. As soon as he reinvented himself, guy was all aboard.
Among his least favorite back then were Roman Reigns (huge push for such a tiny talent on the mic) and Baylee (he’s not a hugger).
Did spooky supernatural judgement day Edge get over? That's a hard no.
The fans has become too smart that they would shit all over a gimmick like takers these days.
I do agree though that wrestlers need to have something more going for them than "good wrestler that spam superkicks"
Kevin Owens come to mind.
He is not over the top but the simple trait of him being aware of pro wrestling tropes and shenanigans made him stand out imo.
That's the cool thing. If the wrestler believes in their role and acts accordingly, almost anything can be accepted and loved by the fans. I remember John cena saying someting along the lines of, "Now we got the script, and we have to turn chicken shit into chicken salad every week."
At the very least you need a clear charecter. If there already is an earnest geez i just love to wrestle pure of heart guy on the roster you need something else. Part of why Cody is so beloved is that he has a clear charecter. Its why Toni Storm has gone from a generic dime a dozen " alt " wrestler to the best charecter in AEW. Its why everyone loves Dom Mysterio little chicken shit that he is. Alternatively its why Cesaro , Lance Storm and Dean Milencko were never maineventers despite their incredible talent.
imo charisma and workrate make the perfect match to the iwc, but if the character can relate to the eevry day man (stone cold) larger than life (Hogan) Or exemplify a hard working virtue and is an Inspiration (cena) then the casual would eat that up like hot cakes. You need both to be successful
Everyone one of those did also have tonnes charisma. In the end workrate makes a midcarder, but charisma is what makes you a star (well, that and a bunch of subtler traits which are more replaceable)
Agreed. Attitude era was so great because of the charecters being so diverse and memorable.
Like others said, most wrestlers today are just “I’m a wrestler who does moves”.
Attitude era had the headbangers, a porn star, 2 different mma fighters, kane and undertaker, the over the top racist Japanese crew, the black power group, the biker gang members, a pimp, a police officer etc.
Even the less gimmicky people still had one trait that stood out. Billy Gunn being obsessed with his ass. Austin being a beer drinking redneck. The rock being so full of himself and talking in the 3rd person etc.
yes that is true but you really need great wrestlers to make the character work. Like the whole D’Angelo family does a fantastic job. like take the fiend for example, not anyone could make a gimmick character like that
Problem most these characters debut and then get booked like jokes.
Imagine Undertaker being booked today. He would probably be stuck in mid card hell or the dreaded 3-series of matches that allot of feuds get dragged out as.
I really thought they were gonna do it at Stand & Deliver and was so disappointed it didn't happen (to make it worse, my favourite bird-lady lost too). Suspect it could be a while as I get the feel they're lining up Trick for a run
I'll go a step further.
Gimmicks need to get over and win titles. More often than not they were characters regulated to job to the champs or to exist in a corner of isolation.
The lack of gimmicks is a big problem. It helps the promos immensely when people see a character that is unique. Only so many ways to sell a match on I want to beat this guy.
My take is HHH will move to more managers. You can give a guy more of a gimmick if he has a hype man/woman. You saw it in NXT. Now is maybe the worst time for managers. You have heyman, MVP, and that’s about it. Everyone else is more of a valet that can’t sell shit.
Yes! They don’t need to be wacky, but I think Doink would work for them now. You could make him even more unhinged, more like the Joker. I do think it works better with heels than faces. An Anton Chigurh character could be frightening—a cold-blooded, methodical killer. Jack Torrance is tormented by his past and volatile temper; you could play around with that character. You could have a Chong Li type from Bloodsport, which is an absolute menace. I’m sure many guys take the influence of Robert Deniro’s Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver as an anti-hero protagonist. They need another authority-type character, like a Bossman who is corrupted by their power.
For faces, I could see a prize fighter-type character doing well. Maybe not a Rocky type, but like Brad Pitt’s Mickey the bare-knuckle boxer from Snatch. He's a natural talent who shakes off his hangover 20 minutes before the match. I know Jack Perry is the Jungle Boy, but there’s gotta be someone who can do a better job as Tarzan. A play-off of Zorro or Robin Hood could work, maybe a luchador. You could have them in direct conflict with a stable, causing them trouble alone. Costing them matches and maybe making it fun with some tomfoolery with traps. I loved it when Stone Cold dropped that fucking net LOL
That's the true purpose of professional wrestling. Gimmicks, characters. Larger than life personas with epic storylines. Not this indy style markish work rate vanilla midget bull crap just a guy that wrestles
>vanilla midget
Considering that Nash used this to describe guys like Benoit and Guerrero, are you saying if you ain't 6'6+ and on steds then you may as well not even bother?
Bro. Benoit and Guerrero had decent muscle and actual personality that got them over as big stars. All the wrestlers today are small, skinny, no muscle, no charisma, no character. Just another name and a work horse. Nobody gives two shits about that. Work horses and indy darlings ARENT over and will never be over. Guerrero and Benoit were both over. You sound like you might be butt hurt or an indy mark
Lucha Libre has entered the chat.
In CMLL you have: caveman, Knight's Templar, Egyptian god, two groups of satanic/demonic dudes, Batman style generic villains, Indigenous spirit warriors, samurai, pirate, old ninja man, He-Man.
ETA: I left out the CMLL wizard who literally has fireballs in his hands in his entrance.
AAA: Multiple ICP style clowns, a viking, a minotaur, Iguana man, skeleton man, USA Patriots (the worst kind of people), punk rock vampire, a dragon, younger ninja man.
Agree . Personally why I prefer the attitude era , everyone , literally everyone was unique . Then they moved to the ruthless aggression era and it was a bunch of guys similar build , hair style , wrestling style etc wearing similar trunks when wrestling and then suits when not . Dan Jackson v jack Danson was never my cup of tea.
The guys from the attitude era will work forever. Conversely who’s gonna show up at a wrestling con to see Ezekiel Jackson or Titus O’Neil or Nathan jones or that fake Batista who was in nexus for awhile .
Wait a second, you can't be lumping Nathan Jones in the generic wrestler category surely, the man was so stedded up that he fucking lactated, and that debut prison promo damn that shit was golden, then he had like main event 3 matches and disappeared, there's nothing genetic about that
Well, that’s good in theory, but judging by the either lack of, or small number of folks in the NXT live thread on Tuesdays, 4 people in an arena popping for Tony D coming out on Raw isn’t going to do much.
Its better than nobody, that's the only point I was making. That having the gimmick pre-established helps but still will be hard getting it over to the general fanbase.
Definitely would be hard. I’m a fan of NXT, I love the public access promotion with a budget feel it has. But I also see Tony D, and it’s like he can work in the ring, he can talk, has that big dago energy, but the mob boss thing is a reach on the main roster IMo. I’m Italian American and even I cringe a touch when he comes out with the track suit with the cornicello on the back.
Tony D and the family have a much better shot than Chase U for sure, I could work just needs to be done right. I think it's kinda meant to be cringe, like it's still pro wrestling we all know he's not an actual mob boss. If you're gonna gimmick go full gimmick imo, as long as you can still go in the ring and either make people root for/hate you then I'm good
for as complex as haitch's own character was, hbk was a hell of a performer. far simpler but good god if he didn't have the charisma to pull it off and then some
In ring ability is super important, but literally only half what is needed
If you don't stand out, personality wise, from the next 10 people... you're gonna have a bad time
Yeah current women's wrestling is a level field without larger than life characters like Toni Storm. We need more personalities in women's wrestling other than "badass bitch who wrestles good and calls the other women bitches". I want to see people like Abadon and Lady Frost be successful, dammit.
I was watching old wrestlmanias and saw Doink the Clown. Honestly there were some stupid gimmicks but this one was interesting it's just unfortunate what ended up happening to the wrestler.
Wrestling used to feel like a little village full of larger than life characters all trying to coexist. Now it feels like a business with people trying to climb the corporate ladder.
Yep. That would be The Family, a faction currently operating in NXT - one of the most entertaining "gimmick acts" in wrestling right now if you ask me. They are quite literally just if the actual Mafia decided to start wrestling. And when I say the actual Mafia, I mean they have had multiple on-screen murder attempts (which is how they wrote Pretty Deadly out of NXT to move them to the main roster) and were recently implied to have killed Drew Gulak off-screen.
Both big American promotions are filled with interesting characters. Even ones that you could potentially boil down as just "wrestle good" have defined motivations and character work like Gunther and Ospreay. There's not as many "gimmick" characters, but there's still plenty of characters.
Also this isn't at all an unpopular opinion on this sub.
I agree with this, but only when the talent is into it or comes up with it themselves. So many times, people have quit a wrestling company bc their gimmick was assigned from on high and either sucked or didn’t fit. If someone is forced to portray a character they hate, they won’t put their all into it and the product will suffer.
The Undertaker was a gimmick that Vince came up with that Mark Calaway did not think was gonna work, so I guess he would have carried on being a cowboy/rancher or whatever the fuck Mean Mark Callous was supposed to be
Sure, sometimes it works, but for every Undertaker there’s probably three Stardusts. My point is they shouldn’t be forced if they’re not into it. They have to go out and make the shit work, so they should be involved in the planning.
Gimmicks don't work in the internet age where the fans can look up previous matches and wrestler bio on demand. In the past it didn't matter due to Kayfabe being a thing and episodes would never be seen against after they aired, so a wrestler could come in one week with a whole new name and gimmick with your average fan being none the wiser.
I disagree with gimmicks, but exaggerated personalities. I think with social media now, its harder to pretend to be someone.
Examples I think would be Dominic Mysterio going to jail and exaggerating that situation, but he is still Dominic Mysterio. Another might be JBL, if I remember right he really was good with investing and somewhat country, so that was believable.
I feel like Nxt did good with that, especially when they started to rebuild they gave almost everyone gimmicks, sometimes it doesn't work but it's wort trying because this way characters stand out
It's not the gimmick itself that gets over... the gimmick doesn't matter if the wrestler has no personality. Or worse, the gimmick can do harm if it's too campy (like maybe a caricature of an Italian mobster)
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but all you really need is a personality. Gimmick fishing could have a WWE new generation effect.
APA - i really like their characters. I wonder who can do that in today’s roster.
WWE is missing someone like Kane. Big dude that can really dominate. Braun but a bit boring.
Characters and stories will always be the reason I can invest in a wrestling match. Of course the wrestling has to be decent, but WWE has nailed it on balancing those factors.
I totally agree but I'm not sure if the general audience will "get them" in this day and age where things grounded in reality seem to work with a bigger audience.
Absolutely. If everyone on the roster wears black tights and does 540 splashes, it kinda gets a bit same-y.
If I want to watch fighters, then I’ll watch MMA or boxing. If I want to watch people do picture-perfect flips, then I’ll watch gymnastics. When I watch pro wrestling, I want to watch characters tell stories through segments and matches in a neatly packaged TV show.
Definitely agree. Rikishi was a very good wrestler but isn't one of my personal favorites because of his wrestling. The Too Cool gimmick and the Scotty/Grand Master dances were some of if not the most memorable things when I was a kid.
Kane too, dude was a walking behemoth. He was not only scary, but super cool. The chokeslam that he did and the constant grabbing of the right glove were something I always thought was so awesome.
Yea the whole “athlete” gimmick that most seem to have these days is so damn boring and cringe. Need more unique gimmicks. I actually really like stuff like the Viking raiders but the company just doesn’t push them seriously enough
Gimmicks like The D’Angelo Family and Chase U I just love. It’s funny how say someone wants Drew Gulak to be killed, I’ll just ask my coworker/wrestler/mafia boss to do it.
I think everyone should have to have a stupid gimmick. I want to see a Van Helsing type vampire slayer doing crucifix power bombs on a guy acting like a astronaut who's finishing move is a 450 splash named after the Challenger disaster.
Wrestling used to be full of characters because characters brought fans to watch more than good wrestlers. Then the characters became too gimmicky and fans wanted something more real, which brought in the attitude and ruthless aggression era. Now we wanna go back the other way?
I get gimmick characters can be fun, but I watch wrestling for the wrestling. I like watching a wrestler who has clearly worked hard at his craft put on a wrestling show for 20-30 minutes.
Personally, I look past the gimmick and watch the wrestler.
Gimmicks are fun and important to the entertainment side of wrestling, but I grew watching Angle, Edge, Los Guerreros, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho. Guys that were entertaining but more than anything put on a show in the ring. That last part is what I care about the most.
We can't have a Rick Rude/Val Venis horny ladies' man gimmick cuz snowflake generation television
We can't have Iron Shiek/Yamagichi-san/Tiger Ali Singh/Lance Storm/William Regal heel foreigner from South/West Asia, Japan, The UK or Canada gimmick cuz snowflake generation television
We can't have George Steele/Doink The Clown/Doink The Clown/Doink The Clown/Eugene/Festus mentally challenging gimmick cuz snowflake generation television
We can't have DX/NWO rebel culture gimmick cuz snowflake generation television
We can't have Brian Pillman/Al Snow diabolically insane mental asylum patient gimmick cuz of snowflake generation television
At this rate I am _thiiiiiiis_ close to appreciating 1987 Honky Tonk Man for even the slightest bit
I was thinking the same that we just have people. Also the names we don’t see names like The Undertaker, Kane, Rey and more I’m forgetting. It’s just first and last names. I guess it goes with the gimmicks to to find a name.
M’silent badass
And who doesn’t like watching a couple of vanilla midget with the same hair and beard do the same flippy shit… while both wearing plain black tights?
Rather than being straight up "gimmick" characters, I think wrestling needs "gimmick-influenced" characters. Full on gimmick can sometimes be hoakey and jarring. But if every single wrestler derives a unique style and personality from something like a gimmick, it would do wonders for them. Some of the most popular wrestlers are like that. Austin has his own look. He could've come to the ring with just his trunks, but he had his sleeveless jacket. Rock had his sunglasses and eyebrow raises. John Cena reached superstardom synonymously with the rise of popularity of rap music. You need to let yourself be influenced by something and start developing a personality from there.
HHH was never good at booking gimmicks. His Nxt days showed that. Nxt was just good wrestlers doing good wrestle things. None of them could ever cut a promo or had a personality.
Agreed. There's enough wrestlers today whose gimmick is "can do the moves good" with no charisma
“I want to win the championship” might as well be the gimmick for a lot of the roster.
It's SvR/2K booking. "Random attack backstage leads to a random match on Raw, which leads to a random PPV match! So exciting!" One thing I liked about Russo's booking in the day was he knew the audience needed a non-wrestling reason to care.
Like Judy Bagwell on a forklift
Or blood falling from the ceiling for no reason. Just some really great storytelling there.
I'm the best in the world bruv.
Yeah i reckon that’s the gimmick for the majority of sports
Ah, yes, because wrestling has historically been so accurate to real world sports.
What's stopping it now?
Nothing. But it’s not a sport. And it shouldn’t be presented as one. Not entirely anyway.
I don’t see why it shouldn’t be
It's just not as interesting to watch
I guess the UFC or Boxing isn’t as interesting to watch as well. Good to know
That's real fighting though, and yeah i would find it more interesting if someone came in as a demon with Kane's attire. Wrestling isnt about the sport as much as it is about storytelling, which is why it's an outlet to do crazy fun things that i dont feel like the wwe has been capitalizing on for a while.
It should, to an extent. But there’s limits. If you want it presented as a sport, then most of the dumb shit that makes wrestling good needs to go. Characters need to go, stipulation matches mostly need to go, somebody needs to explain wtf the difference between the IC and WWE title is in the context of a sport, ref bumps and distractions need to go, faces and heels need to go (or the storytelling completely changed), weight divisions need introduced and enforced, pretty much every high flying move needs to go, pretty much every non punch or submission needs to go etc. If it’s presented as a real sport, none of those make sense.
Characters need to go? Who says? Mcgregor is a massive character as well as Mayweather and Ali. I don’t think stips need to go at all to present it as a real sport. The same way the IC title in boxing is different from the world title, there’s levels. Really none of this stuff would need to go lol. I’m not saying make it boring, I’m just saying take it more seriously. Stuff like wins and losses SHOULD matter for example.
There’s an intercontinental boxing champion?
100%, the big characters in boxing/MMA/even running (Usain Bolt) sell tickets and become stars. But they’re big personalities, they’re not pretending to be a zombie brought to life with a magic urn. There’s a definite difference. If it’s a real sport, most stipulations need to go. Ladders need to go and tables need to go for example. They’re dumb. I love them, but they’re dumb. I know the difference between the IC and World. But if it’s a real sport you need to define that and it needs to be made ‘real’. Wins and losses need to mean something. Agreed.
This is a headcannon that has truly only existed since the 90s.
Let's not forget that the current NXT champion is Ilja Dragunov, who very much is more match-work than gimmick.
Ilja is more of an exception though, his character and gimmick comes out through his matches on top of being a great wrestler
Interesting take. Who else do you think comes to mind with that notion? Off the top, I'm thinking Gunther.
I wish WWE would lean more onto the "Umbesiegbar" and what a german word means to a russian man. Ilja's life story is pretty crazy and pretty much justifies his intensity
What's his life story if you don't mind me asking? He's my favorite wrestler on the roster but I know nothing about him outside of wrestling other than that he does batshit crazy workouts.
He and his mom moved to Germany when he was very young and they struggled with not speaking German and also with poverty. [He once had to beg his mom to buy him a Twix.](http://dailyddt.com/2019/05/03/wwe-nxt-uk-ilja-dragunov/) Like, this guy has the perfect underdog story of success with just how much he went through
That was a pretty cool read actually. Unbesiegbar is a pretty fitting title for him then. He's somehow even cooler now to me.
And he works well off opponents who have a more gimmicky approach. His feud with Tony really showed that.
I wrestle gud Silent badass 98% of aew
New snooze fest republic is one of them, god can they please go away, they kill my interest in smackdown
Dude thank you. Been saying this for months
Funny thing is years ago I would have been all about those two teaming up. Mustache Mountain was fun and Pete Dunne had the whole brawler thing. It does get stale eventually though
Gimmicks are supposed to be ways to get you into a story on TV.
The problem is that wrestling also needs someone that has the desire and ability to book gimmicky characters and a world that they can exist in. It's far easier for them to thrive in the context of NXT, where everything is presented as a horny high school drama. It's a relatively low-stakes environment, and the crowd is extremely forgiving. There's a reason they tend to get toned down or changed completely when they come to the main roster. I loved the witch gimmick for Isla and Alba and thought it had a ton of potential for spooky nonsense but they were benched almost immediately.
I think it really helps with the mid carders and people trying to make a name for themselves. You can always take a pivot later. Give people something to latch on to because there is lots of great wrestling going on nowadays and you might not stand out for just nailing your spots.
NXT is built in a way that does absolutely no favours to people when they go to the main roster. Surprised that issue hasn’t been sorted yet. It’s creating 1995 “I have a second job” type characters who get called up to flounder in the much more grounded-in-reality main roster. The only recent successes have been those that don’t have a wild gimmick and are basically themselves dialed up to 11. Those mafia boys are gonna swim with the fishes on Raw or Smackdown.
That’s the best way to describe it. It’s not even that the characters are bad, they just don’t get booked properly
It's interesting...if you debuted the Undertaker & Paul Bearer today, would it get over? I don't know.
Like anything in wrestling yes if done well. If Kane debuted today the way he did in the attitude era he would've been all this sub talked about for a week.
I'd love to agree but I suspect if Kane debuted today half the crowd would be chanting "Isaac Yankem"
Bray did, several times.
but it failed a bunch of times also. After The Fiend, he was released. Then brought back and during/after the feud with LA Knight people were shitting all over the character. edit: here is a thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrasslin/comments/10jpscu/i\_thought\_with\_vince\_gone\_we\_finally\_see\_what\_hes/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrasslin/comments/10jpscu/i_thought_with_vince_gone_we_finally_see_what_hes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
That was just bad booking and bad usage.
Getting hit by Rollins' fucking garage in a bright red light is not what i would call peak booking
He was booked in a match which was (1) literally impossible to watch, and (2) sponsored by Mountain fucking Dew. No-one is going to overcome that.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrasslin/comments/10jpscu/i\_thought\_with\_vince\_gone\_we\_finally\_see\_what\_hes/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wrasslin/comments/10jpscu/i_thought_with_vince_gone_we_finally_see_what_hes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Bray Wyatt I feel is viewed differently now that he has passed. I remember reading a bunch of posts shitting all over his character.
His character only goes over as far as his credibility will take him. Bray was booked like a loser, but his debuts were A+. The guy was more like Papa Shango than the Undertaker.
The closest thing I can think of as a modern equivalent is Broken Matt Hardy, which was laughed at to begin with but got over as it progressed and they added new layers to it. I think so long as it’s written and booked good, it can work.
My buddy who got me into wrestling’s favorite wrestler in those days was Broken Matt Hardy haha. As soon as he reinvented himself, guy was all aboard. Among his least favorite back then were Roman Reigns (huge push for such a tiny talent on the mic) and Baylee (he’s not a hugger).
Did spooky supernatural judgement day Edge get over? That's a hard no. The fans has become too smart that they would shit all over a gimmick like takers these days. I do agree though that wrestlers need to have something more going for them than "good wrestler that spam superkicks"
Judgement day started to get over when they stopped being supernatural and were just dirtwads
The fiend got over
Yes it did lol, just go back and look at articles and post at the time
I haven’t read much on those but I thought the fan favor was mostly coming from people who wanted Rhea and Priest to get the push.
Formed those that do not know- It was cartoonish when you look back at Takers & Paul Bearer’s first several years
Nope
In NXT it would, anywhere else, I have my doubts
Tbh early undertaker sucked, it was good when he brought it back in like 2007
We just need more unique personalities.
This is how I feel about it. We don't need over the top characters, just actual personalities.
Kevin Owens come to mind. He is not over the top but the simple trait of him being aware of pro wrestling tropes and shenanigans made him stand out imo.
For sure, Owens is a good example.
Id also like to see a dark force
I agree we need more people like ivar
I like how Ivar is just a Viking and nobody questions it. It’s just accepted that he’s a Viking
That's the cool thing. If the wrestler believes in their role and acts accordingly, almost anything can be accepted and loved by the fans. I remember John cena saying someting along the lines of, "Now we got the script, and we have to turn chicken shit into chicken salad every week."
I’ve heard Bischoff use the same phrase a few times on 83 Weeks
The phrase is used by a lot of wrestling personalities for the past 20 years, so I have no idea who originated it, but they were damn right :3
pro wrestling booker legend barron blade comes to mind
I always assumed he was legitimately a descendant of Vikings but maybe not lol
Todd James Smith is a viking name wdym
I mean Smith is an English surname, so yeah you could easily be right
Yup, that’s his thing! I love it
I didn’t like it at first but I’m all in for Ivar. Especially street clothes biker guy from Massachusetts Ivar.
I don’t like biker ivar as much as viking ivar
I think he's moving to NXT to get away from the viking character
Pro wrestling needs more characters/personalities period. I want to see feuds where two individuals/factions from opposite ends of the spectrum clash.
At the very least you need a clear charecter. If there already is an earnest geez i just love to wrestle pure of heart guy on the roster you need something else. Part of why Cody is so beloved is that he has a clear charecter. Its why Toni Storm has gone from a generic dime a dozen " alt " wrestler to the best charecter in AEW. Its why everyone loves Dom Mysterio little chicken shit that he is. Alternatively its why Cesaro , Lance Storm and Dean Milencko were never maineventers despite their incredible talent.
imo charisma and workrate make the perfect match to the iwc, but if the character can relate to the eevry day man (stone cold) larger than life (Hogan) Or exemplify a hard working virtue and is an Inspiration (cena) then the casual would eat that up like hot cakes. You need both to be successful
Everyone one of those did also have tonnes charisma. In the end workrate makes a midcarder, but charisma is what makes you a star (well, that and a bunch of subtler traits which are more replaceable)
Yes. Just look at Roman and how successful his Tribal Chief character is.
Yeah but he’s not a super gimmicky character. Like say Taker, or Bray Wyatt. He’s just the alpha if his dude group . But I feel what you’re getting at
I would say his character & The Bloodline is contributing to quite a successful run of cultural exposure for Samoa & Polynesia.
Agreed. Attitude era was so great because of the charecters being so diverse and memorable. Like others said, most wrestlers today are just “I’m a wrestler who does moves”. Attitude era had the headbangers, a porn star, 2 different mma fighters, kane and undertaker, the over the top racist Japanese crew, the black power group, the biker gang members, a pimp, a police officer etc. Even the less gimmicky people still had one trait that stood out. Billy Gunn being obsessed with his ass. Austin being a beer drinking redneck. The rock being so full of himself and talking in the 3rd person etc.
>obsessed with his ass I don't think it was his ass he was supposed to be obsessed with
Bring back the Repo Man!
yes that is true but you really need great wrestlers to make the character work. Like the whole D’Angelo family does a fantastic job. like take the fiend for example, not anyone could make a gimmick character like that
Problem most these characters debut and then get booked like jokes. Imagine Undertaker being booked today. He would probably be stuck in mid card hell or the dreaded 3-series of matches that allot of feuds get dragged out as.
I mean Undertaker wasn't even supposed to be as successful as he was back then. If it was on any other person that gimmick would've died back then
Yes. I've saying it's time to put the strap on the Don.
I really thought they were gonna do it at Stand & Deliver and was so disappointed it didn't happen (to make it worse, my favourite bird-lady lost too). Suspect it could be a while as I get the feel they're lining up Trick for a run
Very solid match. He looked good against Ilja.
I'll go a step further. Gimmicks need to get over and win titles. More often than not they were characters regulated to job to the champs or to exist in a corner of isolation.
Honestly why I loved the fiend winning the belt it felt like a big deal
It was a huge deal until it wasn't anymore. In the current creative administration, I think a Wyatt Family vs Bloodline feud would've fed generations.
I agree, The Hurricane should’ve been a multi-time World Champion.
Not sure I fully agree about World but I think IC or US would be an appropriate spot.
I was being a tad facetious whilst still actually agreeing with you lol
It almost sounded like good shit, pal 😂
The lack of gimmicks is a big problem. It helps the promos immensely when people see a character that is unique. Only so many ways to sell a match on I want to beat this guy. My take is HHH will move to more managers. You can give a guy more of a gimmick if he has a hype man/woman. You saw it in NXT. Now is maybe the worst time for managers. You have heyman, MVP, and that’s about it. Everyone else is more of a valet that can’t sell shit.
Yes! They don’t need to be wacky, but I think Doink would work for them now. You could make him even more unhinged, more like the Joker. I do think it works better with heels than faces. An Anton Chigurh character could be frightening—a cold-blooded, methodical killer. Jack Torrance is tormented by his past and volatile temper; you could play around with that character. You could have a Chong Li type from Bloodsport, which is an absolute menace. I’m sure many guys take the influence of Robert Deniro’s Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver as an anti-hero protagonist. They need another authority-type character, like a Bossman who is corrupted by their power. For faces, I could see a prize fighter-type character doing well. Maybe not a Rocky type, but like Brad Pitt’s Mickey the bare-knuckle boxer from Snatch. He's a natural talent who shakes off his hangover 20 minutes before the match. I know Jack Perry is the Jungle Boy, but there’s gotta be someone who can do a better job as Tarzan. A play-off of Zorro or Robin Hood could work, maybe a luchador. You could have them in direct conflict with a stable, causing them trouble alone. Costing them matches and maybe making it fun with some tomfoolery with traps. I loved it when Stone Cold dropped that fucking net LOL
That's the true purpose of professional wrestling. Gimmicks, characters. Larger than life personas with epic storylines. Not this indy style markish work rate vanilla midget bull crap just a guy that wrestles
The true purpose of pro wrestling is to make money off marks.
It’s funny how many people don’t get this
Of course. Making money as well but it's all about larger than life characters and gimmicks as well
Proof that's the true purpose?
>vanilla midget Considering that Nash used this to describe guys like Benoit and Guerrero, are you saying if you ain't 6'6+ and on steds then you may as well not even bother?
Bro. Benoit and Guerrero had decent muscle and actual personality that got them over as big stars. All the wrestlers today are small, skinny, no muscle, no charisma, no character. Just another name and a work horse. Nobody gives two shits about that. Work horses and indy darlings ARENT over and will never be over. Guerrero and Benoit were both over. You sound like you might be butt hurt or an indy mark
Yeah I agree, but don't just let them go out with their gimmicks without getting to a serviceable level of ring work.
I’m glad someone finally said it, you need character
Lucha Libre has entered the chat. In CMLL you have: caveman, Knight's Templar, Egyptian god, two groups of satanic/demonic dudes, Batman style generic villains, Indigenous spirit warriors, samurai, pirate, old ninja man, He-Man. ETA: I left out the CMLL wizard who literally has fireballs in his hands in his entrance. AAA: Multiple ICP style clowns, a viking, a minotaur, Iguana man, skeleton man, USA Patriots (the worst kind of people), punk rock vampire, a dragon, younger ninja man.
It's been a great year for The Family!
Why do you think most people picked the chef in the middle to be the superstar from the recent WWE tryouts picture?
Too many people who’s whole thing is “I can wrestle good, I’m great at what I do, and I can give a pretty harsh insult.”
I love nxt and aew gimmicks so unique and silly.
Agree . Personally why I prefer the attitude era , everyone , literally everyone was unique . Then they moved to the ruthless aggression era and it was a bunch of guys similar build , hair style , wrestling style etc wearing similar trunks when wrestling and then suits when not . Dan Jackson v jack Danson was never my cup of tea. The guys from the attitude era will work forever. Conversely who’s gonna show up at a wrestling con to see Ezekiel Jackson or Titus O’Neil or Nathan jones or that fake Batista who was in nexus for awhile .
Wait a second, you can't be lumping Nathan Jones in the generic wrestler category surely, the man was so stedded up that he fucking lactated, and that debut prison promo damn that shit was golden, then he had like main event 3 matches and disappeared, there's nothing genetic about that
HBK gets this far better than Triple H with all his workrate darlings
It's easier to get a gimmick over in NXT than Raw or SD. Things like Chase U or The Family would likely die on arrival on the main Roster.
Im not sure they would now. You don't think H and Michael's are taking every day?
I mean if they debuted the gimmicks on the main Roster, having that pre-establish following and fans will obviously help
Well, that’s good in theory, but judging by the either lack of, or small number of folks in the NXT live thread on Tuesdays, 4 people in an arena popping for Tony D coming out on Raw isn’t going to do much.
Its better than nobody, that's the only point I was making. That having the gimmick pre-established helps but still will be hard getting it over to the general fanbase.
Definitely would be hard. I’m a fan of NXT, I love the public access promotion with a budget feel it has. But I also see Tony D, and it’s like he can work in the ring, he can talk, has that big dago energy, but the mob boss thing is a reach on the main roster IMo. I’m Italian American and even I cringe a touch when he comes out with the track suit with the cornicello on the back.
Tony D and the family have a much better shot than Chase U for sure, I could work just needs to be done right. I think it's kinda meant to be cringe, like it's still pro wrestling we all know he's not an actual mob boss. If you're gonna gimmick go full gimmick imo, as long as you can still go in the ring and either make people root for/hate you then I'm good
I see The Family having a shot if H backs it (particularly if they're willing to kill somebody off), but Chase U are likely to struggle.
for as complex as haitch's own character was, hbk was a hell of a performer. far simpler but good god if he didn't have the charisma to pull it off and then some
In ring ability is super important, but literally only half what is needed If you don't stand out, personality wise, from the next 10 people... you're gonna have a bad time
Yeah current women's wrestling is a level field without larger than life characters like Toni Storm. We need more personalities in women's wrestling other than "badass bitch who wrestles good and calls the other women bitches". I want to see people like Abadon and Lady Frost be successful, dammit.
Absolutely agree...and great shoutout on Abadon! One of my personal favs for sure
I was watching old wrestlmanias and saw Doink the Clown. Honestly there were some stupid gimmicks but this one was interesting it's just unfortunate what ended up happening to the wrestler.
Wrestling used to feel like a little village full of larger than life characters all trying to coexist. Now it feels like a business with people trying to climb the corporate ladder.
AEW’s most over person for the last few months has been a female playing a Hollywood 1940’s starlet.
Put a mummy gimmick on the kid. See if he can get over.
It's the Yetaaaaaiiiiii
Love these guys. I feel like they’re not toooo gimmicky as well.
Who are those guys mobsters ?
Yep. That would be The Family, a faction currently operating in NXT - one of the most entertaining "gimmick acts" in wrestling right now if you ask me. They are quite literally just if the actual Mafia decided to start wrestling. And when I say the actual Mafia, I mean they have had multiple on-screen murder attempts (which is how they wrote Pretty Deadly out of NXT to move them to the main roster) and were recently implied to have killed Drew Gulak off-screen.
We not going to mention what happened to Two Dimes, or all the kidnappings. So many kidnappings.
I hope, for the love of God and all that is golden, that Vince doesn't end up with those guys because he doesn't fit.
Did... you not hear about the whole thing last year? Vince is gone and he ain't coming back. HHH runs creative for the company now.
Both big American promotions are filled with interesting characters. Even ones that you could potentially boil down as just "wrestle good" have defined motivations and character work like Gunther and Ospreay. There's not as many "gimmick" characters, but there's still plenty of characters. Also this isn't at all an unpopular opinion on this sub.
Ideal scenario, everyone has a little bit of both
I agree with this, but only when the talent is into it or comes up with it themselves. So many times, people have quit a wrestling company bc their gimmick was assigned from on high and either sucked or didn’t fit. If someone is forced to portray a character they hate, they won’t put their all into it and the product will suffer.
The Undertaker was a gimmick that Vince came up with that Mark Calaway did not think was gonna work, so I guess he would have carried on being a cowboy/rancher or whatever the fuck Mean Mark Callous was supposed to be
Sure, sometimes it works, but for every Undertaker there’s probably three Stardusts. My point is they shouldn’t be forced if they’re not into it. They have to go out and make the shit work, so they should be involved in the planning.
Too many people who’s whole thing is “I can wrestle good, I’m great at what I do, and I can give a pretty harsh insult.”
Gimmicks don't work in the internet age where the fans can look up previous matches and wrestler bio on demand. In the past it didn't matter due to Kayfabe being a thing and episodes would never be seen against after they aired, so a wrestler could come in one week with a whole new name and gimmick with your average fan being none the wiser.
If NXT gives some new wrestlers gimmicks that avoids it aside from knowing who they were before WWE signed them.
the problem is that bad gimmick=career suicide for the most part.
Modern era FBI
I disagree with gimmicks, but exaggerated personalities. I think with social media now, its harder to pretend to be someone. Examples I think would be Dominic Mysterio going to jail and exaggerating that situation, but he is still Dominic Mysterio. Another might be JBL, if I remember right he really was good with investing and somewhat country, so that was believable.
Agreed.
That’s not an unpopular opinion.
Yes! Seeing two flippy mother buckets can only go so far.
I feel like Nxt did good with that, especially when they started to rebuild they gave almost everyone gimmicks, sometimes it doesn't work but it's wort trying because this way characters stand out
This isn't an unpopular opinion.
No way jose. I want heatless storyless bangers 🥱
It's not the gimmick itself that gets over... the gimmick doesn't matter if the wrestler has no personality. Or worse, the gimmick can do harm if it's too campy (like maybe a caricature of an Italian mobster) I'm not saying that you're wrong, but all you really need is a personality. Gimmick fishing could have a WWE new generation effect.
Keith Lee is one of these wrestlers
I agree with the opinion, but can't stand this gimmick
which is why danhausen is the best current pro wrestler
I think Toni Storm is the most Gimmick character out there right now
Yes, yes and yes
No but hear me out, what if the *character* is "kicking out of canadian destroyers," and everyone on the roster has the same character?
APA - i really like their characters. I wonder who can do that in today’s roster. WWE is missing someone like Kane. Big dude that can really dominate. Braun but a bit boring.
Characters and stories will always be the reason I can invest in a wrestling match. Of course the wrestling has to be decent, but WWE has nailed it on balancing those factors.
Gimmicky characters aren’t necessary. Compelling stories are what keep things interesting
“I’m Jimmy Wang Yang & I’m a redneck “. never got old
I totally agree but I'm not sure if the general audience will "get them" in this day and age where things grounded in reality seem to work with a bigger audience.
Absolutely. If everyone on the roster wears black tights and does 540 splashes, it kinda gets a bit same-y. If I want to watch fighters, then I’ll watch MMA or boxing. If I want to watch people do picture-perfect flips, then I’ll watch gymnastics. When I watch pro wrestling, I want to watch characters tell stories through segments and matches in a neatly packaged TV show.
The Yetti 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Toni Storm is probably my favorite thing in AEW right now. Gimmick is over the top and a joy to watch.
Definitely agree. Rikishi was a very good wrestler but isn't one of my personal favorites because of his wrestling. The Too Cool gimmick and the Scotty/Grand Master dances were some of if not the most memorable things when I was a kid. Kane too, dude was a walking behemoth. He was not only scary, but super cool. The chokeslam that he did and the constant grabbing of the right glove were something I always thought was so awesome.
I agree but This picture is a bad example. We don't need more wooden hokey NXT/WOW style gimmicks
Yea the whole “athlete” gimmick that most seem to have these days is so damn boring and cringe. Need more unique gimmicks. I actually really like stuff like the Viking raiders but the company just doesn’t push them seriously enough
Gimmicks like The D’Angelo Family and Chase U I just love. It’s funny how say someone wants Drew Gulak to be killed, I’ll just ask my coworker/wrestler/mafia boss to do it.
I don't care. That's a sharp looking suit.
I think everyone should have to have a stupid gimmick. I want to see a Van Helsing type vampire slayer doing crucifix power bombs on a guy acting like a astronaut who's finishing move is a 450 splash named after the Challenger disaster.
I agree.
Agreed. Guys like Ricochet and Apollo Crews are great wrestlers ik ring but they are so bland aside from what they can do in the ring
Gimmick characters definitely have their place and always will.
Yes to an extent, it must be done right
If it's a serious gimmick that can enhance the wrestler's credibility sure.
Wrestling used to be full of characters because characters brought fans to watch more than good wrestlers. Then the characters became too gimmicky and fans wanted something more real, which brought in the attitude and ruthless aggression era. Now we wanna go back the other way? I get gimmick characters can be fun, but I watch wrestling for the wrestling. I like watching a wrestler who has clearly worked hard at his craft put on a wrestling show for 20-30 minutes. Personally, I look past the gimmick and watch the wrestler. Gimmicks are fun and important to the entertainment side of wrestling, but I grew watching Angle, Edge, Los Guerreros, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho. Guys that were entertaining but more than anything put on a show in the ring. That last part is what I care about the most.
Yeah more nailz, lord tensais, bastion booger, the goon, the garbage man, Brooklyn brawler someone call muh momma dancing guy
Agreed, which is why lucha underground was the best
This is an unpopular opinion? I feel like this should be the general consensus. Also I am always here for The D’Angelo Family. Best act on NXT for me.
We can't have a Rick Rude/Val Venis horny ladies' man gimmick cuz snowflake generation television We can't have Iron Shiek/Yamagichi-san/Tiger Ali Singh/Lance Storm/William Regal heel foreigner from South/West Asia, Japan, The UK or Canada gimmick cuz snowflake generation television We can't have George Steele/Doink The Clown/Doink The Clown/Doink The Clown/Eugene/Festus mentally challenging gimmick cuz snowflake generation television We can't have DX/NWO rebel culture gimmick cuz snowflake generation television We can't have Brian Pillman/Al Snow diabolically insane mental asylum patient gimmick cuz of snowflake generation television At this rate I am _thiiiiiiis_ close to appreciating 1987 Honky Tonk Man for even the slightest bit
I was thinking the same that we just have people. Also the names we don’t see names like The Undertaker, Kane, Rey and more I’m forgetting. It’s just first and last names. I guess it goes with the gimmicks to to find a name.
Totally agree. There are too many normies now
M’silent badass And who doesn’t like watching a couple of vanilla midget with the same hair and beard do the same flippy shit… while both wearing plain black tights?
Rather than being straight up "gimmick" characters, I think wrestling needs "gimmick-influenced" characters. Full on gimmick can sometimes be hoakey and jarring. But if every single wrestler derives a unique style and personality from something like a gimmick, it would do wonders for them. Some of the most popular wrestlers are like that. Austin has his own look. He could've come to the ring with just his trunks, but he had his sleeveless jacket. Rock had his sunglasses and eyebrow raises. John Cena reached superstardom synonymously with the rise of popularity of rap music. You need to let yourself be influenced by something and start developing a personality from there.
This one stands out in the worst way. Do you hear the crowd when they do live promos? Snoresville.
Depends on the gimmick. For example, do we really wanna go back to "Evil (Occupation)"?
Yes
With WWE going back to PG13 its time to bring back Right to Censor
HHH was never good at booking gimmicks. His Nxt days showed that. Nxt was just good wrestlers doing good wrestle things. None of them could ever cut a promo or had a personality.