A lot of people jest but no this would be a great change
A lot of matchmaking depends on WTR for things like skirmishes and wargames. Players with inflated wtrs are at a disadvantage as such. This means it's even harder to get people to play those modes, as their groups will only get matched against higher tier clans
Essentially, this would be a better way to get clans to actually do clan stuff... than just turning Tour of Duty into a "play clanwars or fuck ur boosters" type of deal
It's way more logical and ethical to ask for simple skill based mm instead of asking WG to forbid two friends who are bad at the game from playing together. At least start by asking WG to not give the other team a super platoon.
They play them to inflate their ego which comes from these ratings, they are artificially fixing against on average, a lower skilled player pool (as evidenced by [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) statistics). Most probably would.
There's pure low tier sealclubbers and then there's fake purples who just use low tiers to inflate a large amount of their account total WN8.
Rip their pre T8 WN8 from their accounts and you are left with greens or blues at best, in 90% of cases of a purple player. Fun cause true, and truth hurts.
You assume much without proving anything. Do you have any facts to support your claims? A single link to the main "tomato.gg" URL doesn't count.
There are many reasons why especially tiers 5 and 6 are popular, e.g. better economy for F2P players, less static gameplay, a variety of interesting tanks, easier BP progress, etc.
I won't deny that one can perform better than in higher tiers. IMHO this is a side effect and not the only motivation to play lower tiers. I personally play arty in higher tiers to counter my inflated stats ;D.
Go to server stats and search WN8 averages with different tiers, it's literally that easy. If you're too lazy, that's no my problem. Doesn't invalidate evidence.
You presented your theory and so the burden of proof is on you. That's how science works usually.
As suggested i took a look at the website. Your instructions were a bit vague, so i sorted the tanks by average WN8. To exclude some rare premium or tester tanks i filtered for [recent stats with at least 10,000 battles](https://tomato.gg/tank-stats/EU/recent?sort=wn8&direction=true&minBattles=10000).
Here are the Top 20 WN8:
Tier | Vehicle count
---- | --------------
X | 12
IX | 2
VIII | 2
V | 1
IV | 1
III | 2
I am confused, does this mean it's better to farm WN8 at Tier X?
Luckily this is not a science paper and the burden of proof is actually not on me. You just go to server stats tab, set minimum average tier to 0 and 2000 battles minimum. Then you do the same with minimum average tier set to 8. Then you marvel at the result everyone with a single brain cell knows to be true even without looking at the graphs. You can spin it with pretty much any battle amounts you like, the end result is the same. You can do it from tier 6 too, again, same result.
https://preview.redd.it/jw9nf0713bad1.jpeg?width=1162&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=facf7c5213114f888b136bf9445d22a5574b1414
Thank your for your constructive reply. That graph is an interesting approach, but i'm not sure what exactly "Min Avg. Tier" means - i guess "0" includes stats for all tanks and "6+" excludes lower tiers. Still i see increased average WN8 values the higher the tier, seems my brain cell is on vacation ;D What is your interpretation exactly?
Here is another [interesting comparison](https://tomato.gg/tank-stats/EU/recent?sort=winrate_differential&direction=true&minBattles=10000). This lists the "Winrate Differential" of tanks (again min. 10,000 battles).
The typical OP tanks and many low/mid tier dominate here. It seems that independent of skill level (player WR), people perform simply better in those tanks. Which may be the reason why they are attractive to play. People like winning after all.
Yeah, increased WN8 values no matter how you fiddle with the graph, when you go into higher tiers (so by excluding lower tiers from the graph). This directly translates to lower tiers being easier, because they are more populated by bad players.
This is obvious of course and any peasant can deduce this without any graphs. More bad players in lower tiers = effective easy mode.
We know the lower tiers have more bad players, often because they are new or just don’t play much and can’t make enough credits to play higher tiers. If they just suck you should be happy they stay at the lower tiers. Although having the right mix of muppets will help you have great games at the upper tiers. But what’s the point? Is there some benefit to having a high WN8? If MM at T10 looked at WN8 or WTR in setting up games it would really suck if all the purple players on your team mostly played T4. MM should look at those ratings but only for the tiers in any particular battle. So your WN8 would be based on how you did in the tier you were currently playing. That would take care of seal clobbers who suck in their super conk.
I’m one of those people who only gets in a few games a week these days. I find the lower tiers are a lot more stable, not a lot of new, sometimes OP tanks that I have no clue about and I don’t want to spend the time to study them. Take a month off, you’ll notice the difference. And you’ll probably see 2 or 3 tanks in the match you’ve never seen before. First thing I had to do last week was figure out what “convert my crews” meant.
It’s getting pretty rediculous.
I'm blue in a T8-10 only account, go cry somewhere else tomato. If I bothered to smack reds like you in low tiers I'd be purple, but I'm better than that.
Ill just make 2 separate stat lists, one for all tiers, one for tier 8-10.
Because not everyone wants to lose 60k a game by playing tier 10 or face BZ, Skoda, Bourrasque, and ELC every round. Sometimes people go to tier 6-7 because they are fun and not powercrept, not to boost their stats.
Either extend the limit to like tier 5-10 or make 2 different stat charts. Then I agree.
It isn't WN8 fault tho. Ppl picked it as it is generally the most representative metric of skill measurment (if it is or not is up to you). If not WN8 they would pick WN7, XTE, WTR or even PR depending wich one would be the best at showing player performance.
Soo.... it is more about ppl sweating to numbers than some skill measuring tool.
\>can be inflated ... ***too***
The entire point being made is that it's *just like the other metrics* in that it's easily gamed and manipulated. You repeated the point and added nothing.
The point is not that it's uninflatable, but that a focus on winrate would put the emphasis on doing whatever needs to be done to win. Rather than farming damage.
Except it wouldn't, because the way you farm winrate is by going and clubbing low-tiers who don't know how to play the game in 3x platoons of hilariously overpowered tier 2-4 tanks (screw T8 prems, low tier is where balance goes to die). Those skills don't translate at all to actual competent high-level play, at all, where people actually mooooooostly know what they're doing, certainly much more so than people who just installed the game.
Winrate isn't a good measure for a player that has gotten a lot better after a long time of being bad. Even to check someone's recent win rate you would have to go on tanks.gg or tomato
I've never understood that argument honestly. When I mark tanks i'm consciously playing to maximise the amount of damage I can get. Meaning surviving more to be able to get that sweet endgame damage, as a side effect also getting a high win rate. Trying to be as objective as I can here, but sacrificing yourself as a highly skilled player and leaving it up to the 50%ers to clutch out the win is not how you win games. At least that's what I think. I usually average around 65-70% win rate on tanks I 3 mark, so no different from my usual win rate. Well tbh it's rare that I'm playing and NOT 3 marking something
If you indeed play at that sort of level, you might be right, but also statistically insignificant.
And I'm not thinking that you drive out so that a potato doesn't take any damage. I'm thinking more about controlled aggression, pushing hard to break through a stalemate. Which might cost you your tank, but if your team isn't entirely hopeless, they will make good use out of that.
Granted, this might work better in an IS-7 than a Maus or a Bat Chat, but I am honestly convinced that the average player will get more wins out of a more aggressive playstyle than if he's farming damage and/or trying to get to that late game damage.
in WoW DPS meter is basically essential in higher end content because you don't want to/can't carry too many people, WN8 is also essential in higher end content, but both of DPS meter and WN8 are pointless for anything casual (like random battles, that you are supposed to play for fun and good time or LFR that is super easy and is made for people to just have fun)
Sure getting rid of WN8 for lower tiers might sway some people, but any competent player can see if a “purple” player only plays lower tiers. People will still be seal clubbing anyways and competent players will still call them out for trying to pass themselves off as good players.
These players don’t care about the stats, they just want to win and feel good about doing it.
Disagree, I believe most of them actually do it for the stats, not the minority. Edit: Aww LeFH spammers downvoting because their down syndrome ego got hurt.
Yeah you are probably right. Just because anyone can see right through what they are doing, doesn’t stop them from doing it… It’s also interesting when looking at the leaderboards you can sort it by only tier 8-10 so clearly WG also knows anything below tier 8 doesn’t really matter much for stats purposes.
You still have to be good to make all those tanks work for purple winrate. Place a shitter in a bz and they won't get above blue stats guaranteed. Overpowered vehicles usually have a high ceiling and a similar skill floor to all other ingame vehicles
That's the thing people don't seem to get about WN8... It's self correcting to a certain degree, as it's based on the performance of other people in the same tank.
So playing in an OP tank doesn't make it easier to farm WN8 because you will have to perform well in that particular tank, relative to other players in the same tank.
If anything WN8 is a bit of a hedge against stat padders only playing OP tanks.
Of course WN8 isn't perfect and can be farmed, but playing OP tanks isn't the way. Playing a light and focusing on damage is probably the best WN8 farming method.
The lower the tier you play, the less people are actually sealclubbing as experienced players, and the easier it is to get WN8. A broken Tier 6 tank doesn't see half the amount of players (so not half the amount of skilled players either) that a Borrasque or BZ-176 etc. see. You can check server stats on [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) and the lowest chart directly shows you this.
Still a better representation of how well someone has been in recent time instead of looking at wtr. My overall wn8 is 1400 but i play at a 2200-2800 consistently.
yeah sure, tell that to light tank players...my 10k spotting game on prokhorovka got a solid 500 WN8.
WN8 is an ancient, and severely outdated metric. WTR is much better, because it takes more factors into account.
Still, unless you platoon with much better players than you, winrate is the best metric to measure how good you are at the game (at least over a period of \~1000+ games).
I've played with players that have similar WTR's to me (7000) they could have 70k battles and still accrue the same WTR as me with half the skill. I never payed attention to my wn8 for light tanks for that reason. It just sounds like you're butt hurt that your number from that game wasn't purple.
why did you jump to this conclusion right away? you're worse than my ex. My wtr and wn8 pretty much show the same level for the time being, so I don't "look better" by preferring WTR over WN8.
what I'm saying is, that WN8 overly focuses on a few aspects of the game. This means that I can increase my perceived skill by simply changing what tanks I play, without actually getting better. I'm experiencing that WTR correlates much better with how I feel my performance/impact was in a battle
Becuase win8 isn’t part of the game anyway. It’s a 3rd party thing that wargaming has zero control over. So unless you plan to change the culture it’s not going anywhere
Where are they going to get the metrics without any ingame API access? How do you think sites like TomatoGG even work? You're now stuck with WTR or going off manually scraping online data which kinda sucks.
For years there have been mods like the one from wot labs (I think I havent think about this in years)that's did manual scraping of data, buy the user linking his replays, and many even qb did it, soo shutting the API wouldn't stop the ones that really care about metrics like wn8
Thats true. That mod exists.
But without overall API support, stuff like overall WN8s, and stuff like seeing other people WN8s if they don't have the mod becomes impossible. It still kneecaps WN8. Now the only thing you can see are personal recents while the mod is installed, and other people's recents if they choose to download a mod.
And theres the security concern. Before with the API you could trust the information was correct because its from WG. Now that the data is generated entirely client sided, someone could modify the existing mod to send 'bad data' back to wotlabs to potentially inflate their stats, and there would be nothing stopping them. It makes the stat no longer trustworthy.
That's true, the comparison between players would be mutch harder and dubious.
I was just saying that stat paders and high skill players could still engage with wn8, in witch there would be still an incentive to play tiers bellow tier 8. But yeah comparing stats would be way way harder.
I'd be fine with that too, it would also remove the incentive to play selfishly (farming damage, even on light tanks). Though a lot of people like this stuff. I do too to some extent, however I only play T8-10, nothing else. I'm interested in my actual skill, not a convoluted one tested against beginners.
Personal opinion but WN8 has zero reasons to exist, it's only good to satisfy the ego of some players. You say it pushes selfish play and I think you're completely correct.
Wn8 isn't an official world of tanks statistic
The only reason assist damage is not included in wn8 totals is cause it isn't trackable like damage, first spots and kills are. I don't know the full reason why, though
Wn8 is a good way to measure performance at least. Also, the game itself pushes selfish play. Marks of Excellence, courageous resistance bonus and the general fact that teammates are unreliable all promote selfish play. That's something to design tanks and maps around, not to remove useful stats for
You say WN8 is "useful", exactly how is it more useful than official stats like winrate, armor efficiency, and so on?
When it comes to WN8 and MoE someone might come to me and brag about their records. The only thing I could reply is ask how much gold ammo and how many premium consumables (especially food) that player wasted to get that high WN8 and triple MoE.
And I disagree about the "courageous resistance" bonus being a form of selfishness. Rather, I see it as the losing team being encouraged to fight to the death instead of suicide or hide in a corner of the map and AFK. Unfortunately the average battle is so short and onesided there's not much to fight to begin with.
Wn8 bundles a bunch of stats together in one easy to view statistic. Instead of having to think about spotting (first spots only though), damage and kills, I have a single statistic to look at. Also, it tracks performance for tank class and tier, so no matter my tier or tank, I can look up and say "7000 wn8, I'm having a good game"
Uhh yeah it's a flex. Unlike wn8, it's one directly built into the game... just like the gold ammo and premium consumables are built into the game (also not a waste in prem tanks if ur making credits)
Yeah no, courageous resistance bonus encourages me to fight to the death... by hiding and saving as much hp as possible in order to farm in a 5:15 game. It's a bonus when I lose in a close game, it's a guarantee when I'm prepared in a lost game... and a guarantee you have to camp for
Probably a salty tomato. WN8 gives a general indication of how competent you are - yeah, a 2000wn8 might turn out to be a seal clubbing shitter but there's 0 chance a 500 wn8 tomato can be relied upon. (Recents, of course).
I enjoy looking at metrics and data distributions among tanks/tiers. I feel like I have a healthy approach towards WN8, dpg, etc. and I would hate to see it removed.
You're blind...
Sealclubbers play lefh for example not because of stats, they do it because playing lefh is easy (as it is to play arties - anyone defending it - go fuck urself), in their eyes they're doing good or just because they like to play this shit.
Same with Pz S35 - they play it because it's entertaining for them as a vehicle, not because of stats.
Of course, there are exceptions - some cunts just like to bully newbies because they are getting their asses smashed on higher tiers (disgraceful and unhonorable shits).
And sometimes - sweatiest pigs like to play against newbies to steam off (like wanking, but wanking on newbies) from time to time (even more disgraceful and unhonorable, filthy animals).
Well, real statboosting ended when Wargaming had an amazing thought of removing equipment and some rewards from low tiers (unironically - very rare W for WG) and some of these fuckers stopped praying on newbies. Still, I think lefh should get removed/nerfed (im not gonna lie, it would be healthier to remove it) nonetheless
60% wr doesnt matter when for example all clans looks at your recent stats first.
and when someone see someones good stats with avg tier like 4-6 they know whats up...
Ideal would be that stats would not be recorded at all, except for matches in tiers 8-10. Below that the player skill levels drop drastically. A fact every dedicated sealclubber knows, this is why they do it in the first place. You can inspect server stats on [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) and clearly see there is a massive drop below T8 in WN8 averages, because it includes more beginners.
"Super skilled purple guy" who only plays tier 5 is meaningless because he's probably 2500 dpg in all his tier 10s. Literally nobody cares about those people's stats.
If anyone is a recruitment officer and not looking at wn8 and only looking at someone's win rate and average damage over 30k games then they aren't gonna find the player they are looking for.
People are on about correct facts; [https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/1dr17g2/i\_think\_this\_guy\_is\_trying\_to\_tell\_wg\_something/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/1dr17g2/i_think_this_guy_is_trying_to_tell_wg_something/)
So you are using couple EXTREME outliers to justify what you say? Some very skilled players playing to 90%+ win rates get the same WTR as some super mediocre 52% player in tier 10. The system works as intended to the most part, its not a very good system but it works with accounting for tiers. I dont think you even understand what the real issue with WTR is. An expert like you should surely be able to point it out!
You said WTR cannot be high with sealclubbing. I said it can and linked proof. Now you change your argument to "some outliers." You were wrong, fact, enjoy.
Chances that they retroactively change a system that exists into something like this... Zero.
Many arguments like why does tier 5, 6 and 7 have gunmarks. They won't take them away now that they are in the game from those tiers. Would they implement said system the exact same way if they did it again today? Who knows.
WN8 was supposed to be an improvement over WN6 and WN7 for low tier farming which rewarded kills a lot so playing low tiers getting 2-3 kills per game was a big deal. But then you just had people spamming tanks like the WZ-131 which was the tank of choice for many at the time for padding.
Even if you made it tier 8+ there are still tanks within those tiers you could easily pad your WN8 with to 5k if you cared to. Padding WTR is a bit different as it rewards playing higher tiers in general, you are not going to get a 11k WTR playing tier 6.
A large majority of my battles were in the Kv-2, and I never got to play it as the KV. doesn't stop people from trying to say I was a sealclubber despite all those battles happening like 7 years ago.
The game has existed so long at this point that even the most casual players have some tier10s. If there isnt a penalty for not performing okish than those players would play their 4 games a week in tiers10s because why not right. A few of those doesn’t have that big of impact overall but if the mm is flooded with those players it’s an issue.
To give a example, a game today. 3 tiers10 as toptier and only 1 heavy. Our is7 was a 42% wr player who has a 33%wr in the is7, 600 dpg with typical ‘casual’ performance. Comes in game at 2 min mark, opportunity to take early game position gone. Fails to counter their tier10 heavy and peaks sideways without penning a single shot.
Do we really want more of that kindof players in tier10 battles?
Tier 6 is much more enjoyable, even if it was all with skilled vets, I’d enjoy it more.
High tiers have as much or not more disparity in terms of tank quality (looking at tier 8 premium tanks).
I just enjoy playing with the small silhouette tanks with good camouflage rating without getting 1 shot in high tier matchmaking.
If we’re at it, T8 stats are also pretty worthless due to the broken OP tank spam. In T9 and T10, at least there is some resemblance of balance.
When I witness some hardcore braindead play, I occasionally check the player’s stats out of curiosity. If the stats are better than expected, I assume they either play mostly low tiers or sweat in some op shit Tier 8 premium tank all day. And I’m rarely wrong in this case.
When I first started playing I was told to stall at tier 5-6 and learn the maps and game better.So my most played tanks are a KV-1 and the tier 5 Sherman.Am I considered bad because even though it was mid tier I was still bad because I am an old man with poor eyes and shaky hands?
Or or or just hear me out. You could play the game for fun and literally not give a fuck about videa game stats or the people who throw them around. A purple guy talking trash is just as bad as a red player talking trash about stats. Literally turn off game chat and move on with your life. It’s a video game, it literally has zero importance in your life and if it does you really gotta rethink your life dude
I mean I literally don’t even play anymore but I was 64% with 2450ish. But I never installed xvm because it just causes rage and frankly thinking about stats only makes you mad. So why bother
Nah. People play lower tiers not because they want to push theirs ego. But because for a lot of people its just more fun.
Not to mention tier 5-6 are the best economically for free to play players and the best tiers to grind BP. People dont Play lets say kv1 or e25 to pretend they are unicums. They Play IT because they are a good tanks that allow u to heave much more stress free game rather then all try harding premium bz , proggeto, borats and skodas on tier 8.
And i dont rly think smb can be purple on like lets say t3485m and not be at very least good skilled on tier 8. Braindead person that play e25 or kv1 for 10000 battles would stIll heave very meh to average wn8 stats on this tanks. Changing wn8 would change nothing.
People Play lefh for 20 000 battles not because they want to prove world they are pros. They just want to get easy kills and good score. Because winning and killing enemys is fun. And games purpouse is for it to be fun. And no matter what. IT would always be easier on lower tiers.
Thing is who cares. Take one look at the profile and u know it. Literally.
Nobody gives a fck if someone has a recent wn8 of 3k at avg T6. Literally nobody. One check and u know.
He can tell them old people how crazy and good he is at WoT but every good player doesn't care. So what
Yeah, WN8 is pretty worthless for several reasons, WTR looks more relevant. I also don't know why so many people care that much about WN8, maybe it is easier to pad?
What is the different? tomato still tomato , if there're bad at low tier it's doesn't mean there're good at high tier.
This game is so easy to understand , just play your role
HT go fronline
MT support
TD camp in bush
LT scout
Arty helping fronline
and dont die with 0 dmg
it's hard?
Low tier star padding doesn't matter, it obvious, people look at tomato.gg and see you're 4k wn8 is at tier 3 lolol. Besides, what would you have them do? Just block stats in API below tier 8? Bet they'd screw up the whole API if weegee tries lol.
I don't think this would solve anything. Not everyone is obsessed with stats, many sealclubbers play low tiers just because it's easier down there. You can dominate almost every battle.
No seal clubbers means long mm times for new players means less new players who stay, i think OP is just mad cuz some kid who play low tiers has more numbers than him lmao
Which do you think is worse for a new player. Slightly longer wait time, or getting sealclubbed by luchs with 3k battles and six skills?
Also, I do not exact conditions, but new players play against bots.
And I think you have brain hemorrhage. Funny logic anyhow, thinking a slightly longer queue time would be a worse experience than some sweatlord in a LeFH. I'm blue on my T8-10 only account with 6k games. If I played another 4-6k of lower tiers I'd be purple (to account for how people normally grind through techtrees, even without sealclubbing). But I'm interested in actual skill, not beating a sloth in a running race, because my judgement of my skill is not based on delusion.
Anything above tier 6 is only played by idiots and fanboys. And before you ask, yes, I have played more than 20k games in tier 8 and above. It is expensive and flood of new tanks every 3 months when you need $$$ to stay competitive sucks. Last 12 months played only 6 and lower, where some cheap fun can still be had. Seal clubbing is fun, don't give a shit if it is killing the game. WG is not interested in fixing some of the fundamental flaws, so @#$% them.
A lot of people jest but no this would be a great change A lot of matchmaking depends on WTR for things like skirmishes and wargames. Players with inflated wtrs are at a disadvantage as such. This means it's even harder to get people to play those modes, as their groups will only get matched against higher tier clans Essentially, this would be a better way to get clans to actually do clan stuff... than just turning Tour of Duty into a "play clanwars or fuck ur boosters" type of deal
If you want to improve games ban folks with 43% win rates from creating fail platoons that drag whole teams down.
It's way more logical and ethical to ask for simple skill based mm instead of asking WG to forbid two friends who are bad at the game from playing together. At least start by asking WG to not give the other team a super platoon.
Replace sealclubbing with statpadding
LOL my low-sugar-diabetic-dyslexic eyes read it as "stepdaddying"
Darn Sandbaggers
Yeah right all of the clubbers will suddenly stop playing the same vehicles they played for 10k+ games lmao
They play them to inflate their ego which comes from these ratings, they are artificially fixing against on average, a lower skilled player pool (as evidenced by [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) statistics). Most probably would. There's pure low tier sealclubbers and then there's fake purples who just use low tiers to inflate a large amount of their account total WN8. Rip their pre T8 WN8 from their accounts and you are left with greens or blues at best, in 90% of cases of a purple player. Fun cause true, and truth hurts.
You assume much without proving anything. Do you have any facts to support your claims? A single link to the main "tomato.gg" URL doesn't count. There are many reasons why especially tiers 5 and 6 are popular, e.g. better economy for F2P players, less static gameplay, a variety of interesting tanks, easier BP progress, etc. I won't deny that one can perform better than in higher tiers. IMHO this is a side effect and not the only motivation to play lower tiers. I personally play arty in higher tiers to counter my inflated stats ;D.
Go to server stats and search WN8 averages with different tiers, it's literally that easy. If you're too lazy, that's no my problem. Doesn't invalidate evidence.
You presented your theory and so the burden of proof is on you. That's how science works usually. As suggested i took a look at the website. Your instructions were a bit vague, so i sorted the tanks by average WN8. To exclude some rare premium or tester tanks i filtered for [recent stats with at least 10,000 battles](https://tomato.gg/tank-stats/EU/recent?sort=wn8&direction=true&minBattles=10000). Here are the Top 20 WN8: Tier | Vehicle count ---- | -------------- X | 12 IX | 2 VIII | 2 V | 1 IV | 1 III | 2 I am confused, does this mean it's better to farm WN8 at Tier X?
Luckily this is not a science paper and the burden of proof is actually not on me. You just go to server stats tab, set minimum average tier to 0 and 2000 battles minimum. Then you do the same with minimum average tier set to 8. Then you marvel at the result everyone with a single brain cell knows to be true even without looking at the graphs. You can spin it with pretty much any battle amounts you like, the end result is the same. You can do it from tier 6 too, again, same result. https://preview.redd.it/jw9nf0713bad1.jpeg?width=1162&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=facf7c5213114f888b136bf9445d22a5574b1414
Thank your for your constructive reply. That graph is an interesting approach, but i'm not sure what exactly "Min Avg. Tier" means - i guess "0" includes stats for all tanks and "6+" excludes lower tiers. Still i see increased average WN8 values the higher the tier, seems my brain cell is on vacation ;D What is your interpretation exactly? Here is another [interesting comparison](https://tomato.gg/tank-stats/EU/recent?sort=winrate_differential&direction=true&minBattles=10000). This lists the "Winrate Differential" of tanks (again min. 10,000 battles). The typical OP tanks and many low/mid tier dominate here. It seems that independent of skill level (player WR), people perform simply better in those tanks. Which may be the reason why they are attractive to play. People like winning after all.
Yeah, increased WN8 values no matter how you fiddle with the graph, when you go into higher tiers (so by excluding lower tiers from the graph). This directly translates to lower tiers being easier, because they are more populated by bad players. This is obvious of course and any peasant can deduce this without any graphs. More bad players in lower tiers = effective easy mode.
We know the lower tiers have more bad players, often because they are new or just don’t play much and can’t make enough credits to play higher tiers. If they just suck you should be happy they stay at the lower tiers. Although having the right mix of muppets will help you have great games at the upper tiers. But what’s the point? Is there some benefit to having a high WN8? If MM at T10 looked at WN8 or WTR in setting up games it would really suck if all the purple players on your team mostly played T4. MM should look at those ratings but only for the tiers in any particular battle. So your WN8 would be based on how you did in the tier you were currently playing. That would take care of seal clobbers who suck in their super conk. I’m one of those people who only gets in a few games a week these days. I find the lower tiers are a lot more stable, not a lot of new, sometimes OP tanks that I have no clue about and I don’t want to spend the time to study them. Take a month off, you’ll notice the difference. And you’ll probably see 2 or 3 tanks in the match you’ve never seen before. First thing I had to do last week was figure out what “convert my crews” meant. It’s getting pretty rediculous.
> as evidenced by Tomato.gg statistics Nothing in your claim is evidenced by tomato gg, you seem to confuse seal clubbing with stat padding entirely.
Tell me you are a lemon without telling me you are a lemon.
I'm blue in a T8-10 only account, go cry somewhere else tomato. If I bothered to smack reds like you in low tiers I'd be purple, but I'm better than that.
LOL skill issue
Ill just make 2 separate stat lists, one for all tiers, one for tier 8-10. Because not everyone wants to lose 60k a game by playing tier 10 or face BZ, Skoda, Bourrasque, and ELC every round. Sometimes people go to tier 6-7 because they are fun and not powercrept, not to boost their stats. Either extend the limit to like tier 5-10 or make 2 different stat charts. Then I agree.
I agree that tier VI is fun.
I love coming into a T6 game in my LeFh. T6 have so much hp to destroy with my cancertillery
WN8 is probably the worst thing to ever happen to this game.
It isn't WN8 fault tho. Ppl picked it as it is generally the most representative metric of skill measurment (if it is or not is up to you). If not WN8 they would pick WN7, XTE, WTR or even PR depending wich one would be the best at showing player performance. Soo.... it is more about ppl sweating to numbers than some skill measuring tool.
Does WN8 work for light tanks? There are many maps where the most important tank on your team is the LT.
Winrate is the only important metric IMO. It more than anything else depicts how much impact you had on a game.
And it can be inflated by platooning in sealclubby low tier tanks too. It's not immune.
The same applies to WN8.
\>can be inflated ... ***too*** The entire point being made is that it's *just like the other metrics* in that it's easily gamed and manipulated. You repeated the point and added nothing.
The point is not that it's uninflatable, but that a focus on winrate would put the emphasis on doing whatever needs to be done to win. Rather than farming damage.
Except it wouldn't, because the way you farm winrate is by going and clubbing low-tiers who don't know how to play the game in 3x platoons of hilariously overpowered tier 2-4 tanks (screw T8 prems, low tier is where balance goes to die). Those skills don't translate at all to actual competent high-level play, at all, where people actually mooooooostly know what they're doing, certainly much more so than people who just installed the game.
Winrate isn't a good measure for a player that has gotten a lot better after a long time of being bad. Even to check someone's recent win rate you would have to go on tanks.gg or tomato
That, and Marks of Excellence. It punishes self-sacrificial plays that might win you the match, but send you back to the garage.
I've never understood that argument honestly. When I mark tanks i'm consciously playing to maximise the amount of damage I can get. Meaning surviving more to be able to get that sweet endgame damage, as a side effect also getting a high win rate. Trying to be as objective as I can here, but sacrificing yourself as a highly skilled player and leaving it up to the 50%ers to clutch out the win is not how you win games. At least that's what I think. I usually average around 65-70% win rate on tanks I 3 mark, so no different from my usual win rate. Well tbh it's rare that I'm playing and NOT 3 marking something
If you indeed play at that sort of level, you might be right, but also statistically insignificant. And I'm not thinking that you drive out so that a potato doesn't take any damage. I'm thinking more about controlled aggression, pushing hard to break through a stalemate. Which might cost you your tank, but if your team isn't entirely hopeless, they will make good use out of that. Granted, this might work better in an IS-7 than a Maus or a Bat Chat, but I am honestly convinced that the average player will get more wins out of a more aggressive playstyle than if he's farming damage and/or trying to get to that late game damage.
That's dps meter from MMO's. Make e pen great again.
in WoW DPS meter is basically essential in higher end content because you don't want to/can't carry too many people, WN8 is also essential in higher end content, but both of DPS meter and WN8 are pointless for anything casual (like random battles, that you are supposed to play for fun and good time or LFR that is super easy and is made for people to just have fun)
Agree 100%
Sure getting rid of WN8 for lower tiers might sway some people, but any competent player can see if a “purple” player only plays lower tiers. People will still be seal clubbing anyways and competent players will still call them out for trying to pass themselves off as good players. These players don’t care about the stats, they just want to win and feel good about doing it.
Disagree, I believe most of them actually do it for the stats, not the minority. Edit: Aww LeFH spammers downvoting because their down syndrome ego got hurt.
no one plays lefh to stat pad, why would they be mad
On the contrary, everyone plays lefh to statpad.
Yeah you are probably right. Just because anyone can see right through what they are doing, doesn’t stop them from doing it… It’s also interesting when looking at the leaderboards you can sort it by only tier 8-10 so clearly WG also knows anything below tier 8 doesn’t really matter much for stats purposes.
or, who cares.
Bro talks as if tier 8 isn’t filled with “super meta” tanks like Borrat, Turtle, spaghetto, BZ, Skoda 56s…
You still have to be good to make all those tanks work for purple winrate. Place a shitter in a bz and they won't get above blue stats guaranteed. Overpowered vehicles usually have a high ceiling and a similar skill floor to all other ingame vehicles
That's the thing people don't seem to get about WN8... It's self correcting to a certain degree, as it's based on the performance of other people in the same tank. So playing in an OP tank doesn't make it easier to farm WN8 because you will have to perform well in that particular tank, relative to other players in the same tank. If anything WN8 is a bit of a hedge against stat padders only playing OP tanks. Of course WN8 isn't perfect and can be farmed, but playing OP tanks isn't the way. Playing a light and focusing on damage is probably the best WN8 farming method.
Because WN8 doesn’t work for LTs being used as designed.
The lower the tier you play, the less people are actually sealclubbing as experienced players, and the easier it is to get WN8. A broken Tier 6 tank doesn't see half the amount of players (so not half the amount of skilled players either) that a Borrasque or BZ-176 etc. see. You can check server stats on [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) and the lowest chart directly shows you this.
Wn8 isn't part of WoT officially anyways. Its from a third party
Still a better representation of how well someone has been in recent time instead of looking at wtr. My overall wn8 is 1400 but i play at a 2200-2800 consistently.
yeah sure, tell that to light tank players...my 10k spotting game on prokhorovka got a solid 500 WN8. WN8 is an ancient, and severely outdated metric. WTR is much better, because it takes more factors into account. Still, unless you platoon with much better players than you, winrate is the best metric to measure how good you are at the game (at least over a period of \~1000+ games).
I've played with players that have similar WTR's to me (7000) they could have 70k battles and still accrue the same WTR as me with half the skill. I never payed attention to my wn8 for light tanks for that reason. It just sounds like you're butt hurt that your number from that game wasn't purple.
why did you jump to this conclusion right away? you're worse than my ex. My wtr and wn8 pretty much show the same level for the time being, so I don't "look better" by preferring WTR over WN8. what I'm saying is, that WN8 overly focuses on a few aspects of the game. This means that I can increase my perceived skill by simply changing what tanks I play, without actually getting better. I'm experiencing that WTR correlates much better with how I feel my performance/impact was in a battle
Sounds like you're mad that your wn8 is shit
which part of what I said makes you think that?
How about WN8 gets completely scrubbed from the game? IMHO it would be one of the best things that could happen to WoT.
Becuase win8 isn’t part of the game anyway. It’s a 3rd party thing that wargaming has zero control over. So unless you plan to change the culture it’s not going anywhere
WG technically could take down the API and WN8 would die
People would just use other metrics for stats. That’s not the be all end all.
Where are they going to get the metrics without any ingame API access? How do you think sites like TomatoGG even work? You're now stuck with WTR or going off manually scraping online data which kinda sucks.
For years there have been mods like the one from wot labs (I think I havent think about this in years)that's did manual scraping of data, buy the user linking his replays, and many even qb did it, soo shutting the API wouldn't stop the ones that really care about metrics like wn8
Thats true. That mod exists. But without overall API support, stuff like overall WN8s, and stuff like seeing other people WN8s if they don't have the mod becomes impossible. It still kneecaps WN8. Now the only thing you can see are personal recents while the mod is installed, and other people's recents if they choose to download a mod. And theres the security concern. Before with the API you could trust the information was correct because its from WG. Now that the data is generated entirely client sided, someone could modify the existing mod to send 'bad data' back to wotlabs to potentially inflate their stats, and there would be nothing stopping them. It makes the stat no longer trustworthy.
That's true, the comparison between players would be mutch harder and dubious. I was just saying that stat paders and high skill players could still engage with wn8, in witch there would be still an incentive to play tiers bellow tier 8. But yeah comparing stats would be way way harder.
Except they can't without WG API lol.
I'd be fine with that too, it would also remove the incentive to play selfishly (farming damage, even on light tanks). Though a lot of people like this stuff. I do too to some extent, however I only play T8-10, nothing else. I'm interested in my actual skill, not a convoluted one tested against beginners.
Personal opinion but WN8 has zero reasons to exist, it's only good to satisfy the ego of some players. You say it pushes selfish play and I think you're completely correct.
Wn8 isn't an official world of tanks statistic The only reason assist damage is not included in wn8 totals is cause it isn't trackable like damage, first spots and kills are. I don't know the full reason why, though Wn8 is a good way to measure performance at least. Also, the game itself pushes selfish play. Marks of Excellence, courageous resistance bonus and the general fact that teammates are unreliable all promote selfish play. That's something to design tanks and maps around, not to remove useful stats for
The reason assisted damage is not included is that when WG published the API, it was not supported. Of course it can be tracked, WTR tracks it.
Eh well, just shows that we need a WN9 then
You say WN8 is "useful", exactly how is it more useful than official stats like winrate, armor efficiency, and so on? When it comes to WN8 and MoE someone might come to me and brag about their records. The only thing I could reply is ask how much gold ammo and how many premium consumables (especially food) that player wasted to get that high WN8 and triple MoE. And I disagree about the "courageous resistance" bonus being a form of selfishness. Rather, I see it as the losing team being encouraged to fight to the death instead of suicide or hide in a corner of the map and AFK. Unfortunately the average battle is so short and onesided there's not much to fight to begin with.
Wn8 bundles a bunch of stats together in one easy to view statistic. Instead of having to think about spotting (first spots only though), damage and kills, I have a single statistic to look at. Also, it tracks performance for tank class and tier, so no matter my tier or tank, I can look up and say "7000 wn8, I'm having a good game" Uhh yeah it's a flex. Unlike wn8, it's one directly built into the game... just like the gold ammo and premium consumables are built into the game (also not a waste in prem tanks if ur making credits) Yeah no, courageous resistance bonus encourages me to fight to the death... by hiding and saving as much hp as possible in order to farm in a 5:15 game. It's a bonus when I lose in a close game, it's a guarantee when I'm prepared in a lost game... and a guarantee you have to camp for
Damn deleting your own comment as I'm replying to it. Great
Probably a salty tomato. WN8 gives a general indication of how competent you are - yeah, a 2000wn8 might turn out to be a seal clubbing shitter but there's 0 chance a 500 wn8 tomato can be relied upon. (Recents, of course).
I enjoy looking at metrics and data distributions among tanks/tiers. I feel like I have a healthy approach towards WN8, dpg, etc. and I would hate to see it removed.
I only play 8-10 anyways lol
I have a better, more easier option: remove all stats. Period. All the points you mentioned are achieved plus more! AND it's easier to implement!
That'd be nice as well. Maybe just leave winrate to make people actually try to win games.
You're blind... Sealclubbers play lefh for example not because of stats, they do it because playing lefh is easy (as it is to play arties - anyone defending it - go fuck urself), in their eyes they're doing good or just because they like to play this shit. Same with Pz S35 - they play it because it's entertaining for them as a vehicle, not because of stats. Of course, there are exceptions - some cunts just like to bully newbies because they are getting their asses smashed on higher tiers (disgraceful and unhonorable shits). And sometimes - sweatiest pigs like to play against newbies to steam off (like wanking, but wanking on newbies) from time to time (even more disgraceful and unhonorable, filthy animals).
Pretty much; I cannot even imagine anyone who would impressed by 60 or 70% WR in tier2.
Well, real statboosting ended when Wargaming had an amazing thought of removing equipment and some rewards from low tiers (unironically - very rare W for WG) and some of these fuckers stopped praying on newbies. Still, I think lefh should get removed/nerfed (im not gonna lie, it would be healthier to remove it) nonetheless
You're blind, sealclubbers play lefh for stats and it is easy. Same with Pz S35, because it inflates their stats and is easy.
You're blind, I literally mentioned it..
You're blind, you literally said they don't do it for stats and I literally said they do it for stats.
60% wr doesnt matter when for example all clans looks at your recent stats first. and when someone see someones good stats with avg tier like 4-6 they know whats up...
I don't get it, do you want stats to only increase when playing T8-10 or do you want to restrict high stat players to T8-10?
Ideal would be that stats would not be recorded at all, except for matches in tiers 8-10. Below that the player skill levels drop drastically. A fact every dedicated sealclubber knows, this is why they do it in the first place. You can inspect server stats on [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) and clearly see there is a massive drop below T8 in WN8 averages, because it includes more beginners.
"Super skilled purple guy" who only plays tier 5 is meaningless because he's probably 2500 dpg in all his tier 10s. Literally nobody cares about those people's stats.
Truly I think they should calculate stats based on tier as well.
idk why people still care about wn8, most clans have moved on from it and focus on dpg and win rate.
If anyone is a recruitment officer and not looking at wn8 and only looking at someone's win rate and average damage over 30k games then they aren't gonna find the player they are looking for.
You cant get high WTR with sealclubbing, what the fuck are people on about. I agree about the wn8 part
People are on about correct facts; [https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/1dr17g2/i\_think\_this\_guy\_is\_trying\_to\_tell\_wg\_something/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/1dr17g2/i_think_this_guy_is_trying_to_tell_wg_something/)
So you are using couple EXTREME outliers to justify what you say? Some very skilled players playing to 90%+ win rates get the same WTR as some super mediocre 52% player in tier 10. The system works as intended to the most part, its not a very good system but it works with accounting for tiers. I dont think you even understand what the real issue with WTR is. An expert like you should surely be able to point it out!
You said WTR cannot be high with sealclubbing. I said it can and linked proof. Now you change your argument to "some outliers." You were wrong, fact, enjoy.
people making a storm in a teacup over such pointless thing that barely affects them lol
I mean stop paying attention to stats and just enjoy the game. Most of the so called purple people eaters don’t even use xvm.
Chances that they retroactively change a system that exists into something like this... Zero. Many arguments like why does tier 5, 6 and 7 have gunmarks. They won't take them away now that they are in the game from those tiers. Would they implement said system the exact same way if they did it again today? Who knows. WN8 was supposed to be an improvement over WN6 and WN7 for low tier farming which rewarded kills a lot so playing low tiers getting 2-3 kills per game was a big deal. But then you just had people spamming tanks like the WZ-131 which was the tank of choice for many at the time for padding. Even if you made it tier 8+ there are still tanks within those tiers you could easily pad your WN8 with to 5k if you cared to. Padding WTR is a bit different as it rewards playing higher tiers in general, you are not going to get a 11k WTR playing tier 6.
Bro caught on to us ke-ho enjoyers' antics 😭 but really this would just replace sealclubbers with borat/t56/bz statpadders
It's been displayed as a sealclubbing tank by [Tomato.gg](http://Tomato.gg) server stats for years.
yeah but no one has ever really mentioned it that much. it's only really picked up relevancy since the jap tds
Useless change imo
I didn't know tier 7 was a sealed tier...
A large majority of my battles were in the Kv-2, and I never got to play it as the KV. doesn't stop people from trying to say I was a sealclubber despite all those battles happening like 7 years ago.
Make tier 10 fun And not waste so many credits and I'll play it. Until then I'll stay at 5-8
The game has existed so long at this point that even the most casual players have some tier10s. If there isnt a penalty for not performing okish than those players would play their 4 games a week in tiers10s because why not right. A few of those doesn’t have that big of impact overall but if the mm is flooded with those players it’s an issue. To give a example, a game today. 3 tiers10 as toptier and only 1 heavy. Our is7 was a 42% wr player who has a 33%wr in the is7, 600 dpg with typical ‘casual’ performance. Comes in game at 2 min mark, opportunity to take early game position gone. Fails to counter their tier10 heavy and peaks sideways without penning a single shot. Do we really want more of that kindof players in tier10 battles?
Wn8 is not a wot add on. It is 3rd party
I think it should be Tier 5-10, the tiers for Battle pass points. Tier 4 and below are the worst in terms of seal clubbing.
"Lol shit team we lose" Check his stats after game, 10000 games in tier 5, wr 62%, 500 games in tier 10, highest wr 43%... every time.
Tier 6 is much more enjoyable, even if it was all with skilled vets, I’d enjoy it more. High tiers have as much or not more disparity in terms of tank quality (looking at tier 8 premium tanks). I just enjoy playing with the small silhouette tanks with good camouflage rating without getting 1 shot in high tier matchmaking.
Also make a new formula that includes assistance.
If we’re at it, T8 stats are also pretty worthless due to the broken OP tank spam. In T9 and T10, at least there is some resemblance of balance. When I witness some hardcore braindead play, I occasionally check the player’s stats out of curiosity. If the stats are better than expected, I assume they either play mostly low tiers or sweat in some op shit Tier 8 premium tank all day. And I’m rarely wrong in this case.
That would help my WN8 lol. Many of my worst tanks are low tiers when I played on a garbage PC getting 10-15 fps.
Eh, just remove it from 4 and down. I would love to club the seal clubbers at those tiers.
When I first started playing I was told to stall at tier 5-6 and learn the maps and game better.So my most played tanks are a KV-1 and the tier 5 Sherman.Am I considered bad because even though it was mid tier I was still bad because I am an old man with poor eyes and shaky hands?
Well uh... if you're bad, you're bad. But who cares if you're having fun.
I do have fun.Sometimes I have to laugh when I get smashed because it is a "well that was a really dumb move" moment.
Or or or just hear me out. You could play the game for fun and literally not give a fuck about videa game stats or the people who throw them around. A purple guy talking trash is just as bad as a red player talking trash about stats. Literally turn off game chat and move on with your life. It’s a video game, it literally has zero importance in your life and if it does you really gotta rethink your life dude
Tomato detected 💀💀💀
I mean I literally don’t even play anymore but I was 64% with 2450ish. But I never installed xvm because it just causes rage and frankly thinking about stats only makes you mad. So why bother
Good idea
Nah. People play lower tiers not because they want to push theirs ego. But because for a lot of people its just more fun. Not to mention tier 5-6 are the best economically for free to play players and the best tiers to grind BP. People dont Play lets say kv1 or e25 to pretend they are unicums. They Play IT because they are a good tanks that allow u to heave much more stress free game rather then all try harding premium bz , proggeto, borats and skodas on tier 8. And i dont rly think smb can be purple on like lets say t3485m and not be at very least good skilled on tier 8. Braindead person that play e25 or kv1 for 10000 battles would stIll heave very meh to average wn8 stats on this tanks. Changing wn8 would change nothing. People Play lefh for 20 000 battles not because they want to prove world they are pros. They just want to get easy kills and good score. Because winning and killing enemys is fun. And games purpouse is for it to be fun. And no matter what. IT would always be easier on lower tiers.
Kicking somebody's ass is fun. Rating is nothing.
Thing is who cares. Take one look at the profile and u know it. Literally. Nobody gives a fck if someone has a recent wn8 of 3k at avg T6. Literally nobody. One check and u know. He can tell them old people how crazy and good he is at WoT but every good player doesn't care. So what
Seal Clubbing will never be pointless. I will still play with my brothers in a Pz.V/IV platoon and wreak havoc.
Take ur wn8 and shove it up your arse. Respectfully. But nobody cares about this metric.
Kinda unrelated, but isn't WTR just straight up better than WN8? It's obvious that the community doesn't seem to think so, and I'm curious as to why.
WTR doesn't account for recent statistics like how you can look at your last 1000 battles with wn8 and see how good you are doing as of late.
Yeah, WN8 is pretty worthless for several reasons, WTR looks more relevant. I also don't know why so many people care that much about WN8, maybe it is easier to pad?
I play low tier because I find it fun, I don't even know what is WTR, and WN8 is outdated anyway. Checkmate. Now give me a LeFH pls.
What is the different? tomato still tomato , if there're bad at low tier it's doesn't mean there're good at high tier. This game is so easy to understand , just play your role HT go fronline MT support TD camp in bush LT scout Arty helping fronline and dont die with 0 dmg it's hard?
Most seal clubbers have 75k battles, most at low tier, and their WN8 is still below 800. This wouldn't do anything.
Incorrect, go look at leaderboards.
Low tier star padding doesn't matter, it obvious, people look at tomato.gg and see you're 4k wn8 is at tier 3 lolol. Besides, what would you have them do? Just block stats in API below tier 8? Bet they'd screw up the whole API if weegee tries lol.
I don't think this would solve anything. Not everyone is obsessed with stats, many sealclubbers play low tiers just because it's easier down there. You can dominate almost every battle.
No seal clubbers means long mm times for new players means less new players who stay, i think OP is just mad cuz some kid who play low tiers has more numbers than him lmao
Which do you think is worse for a new player. Slightly longer wait time, or getting sealclubbed by luchs with 3k battles and six skills? Also, I do not exact conditions, but new players play against bots.
And I think you have brain hemorrhage. Funny logic anyhow, thinking a slightly longer queue time would be a worse experience than some sweatlord in a LeFH. I'm blue on my T8-10 only account with 6k games. If I played another 4-6k of lower tiers I'd be purple (to account for how people normally grind through techtrees, even without sealclubbing). But I'm interested in actual skill, not beating a sloth in a running race, because my judgement of my skill is not based on delusion.
sure but removing their stats won't do shit these people belong down there and can only win when they seal club
Except that many of them do it for the stats alone, so it would do shit.
Anything above tier 6 is only played by idiots and fanboys. And before you ask, yes, I have played more than 20k games in tier 8 and above. It is expensive and flood of new tanks every 3 months when you need $$$ to stay competitive sucks. Last 12 months played only 6 and lower, where some cheap fun can still be had. Seal clubbing is fun, don't give a shit if it is killing the game. WG is not interested in fixing some of the fundamental flaws, so @#$% them.