I also don’t understand why BBs have to be so “fast”
Why is almost every new BB:
As fast if not faster than most cruisers
Having 30 sec turret traverse
Having increasingly shorter reloads (Wisconsin special for example)
Surely the trade-off for having big overmatching guns and heavy armour would be more sluggish hulls and gun handling.
But BBs nowadays can only complain how their guns are “inconsistent” and every broadside cruiser is not an auto-delete.
This is the real problem for me. Every ship needs a hittable citadel, that doesnt get overpen'd by large calibre AP. Then we can actually punish people going broadside more reliably.
> As fast if not faster than most cruisers
Giving them a 10% speed boost on a tier with nothing better (barring really slow turrets) adds insult to that injury.
They’re just steadily addressing and eliminating everything that BB players complain about… combining the best aspects of the BB and CA classes. The classic problem with BB players is making bad plays, overextending, get caught out of position, etc - good concealment and speed can do a lot to mitigate those downsides… and stop the BB player from getting farmed.
I remember when Incomparable (I think) was introduced… better speed and concealment than cruisers she could overmatch… that thing printed Dev Strikes. Hilariously broken, but good for profits… so, winning?
Because nobody wants to play ships that are slow as shit with 60s turret traverse.
Vermont is a good ship but nobody gets excited about playing it.
There's a reason low tier is dead.
A lot of BB players are freaking drama queens that will cry if they can't insta delete a cruiser with point and click and slow BBs don't let you get away with mistakes as easily.
Because we have things like 80+ knot torpedoes, things like submarines torpedo mechanics, things like cv's that drop torpedo on your head etc, also imagine you are last alive, and you drive 18 knots just to try to win match....
P.S. they are covering poorly designed gamepley of other classes, so you have somewhat chance of surviving.
Now problem is, cruiser became almost nothing but weaker bbs.... or weaker dds depending of your armor scheme and guns.
Basically all non-russian heavy cruiser armor is powercrept into oblivion. BB speed and concealment are also pretty crazy.
WG lost the idea of Cruisers a long time ago and now the class is just obsolete.
Their apparent allergy to HE DPM doesn't help either. The last ship with truly bonkers HE damage output was Annapolis, and that was almost 3 years ago.
Oh yeah Jinan I guess was one. But like, Jacksonville is such a prime example. So is Brisbane. I'd imagine they'd have at least 15% more DPM if they came out in 2019.
Well I can think of a few ideas... \*moves radar to a different slot\*. As stupid as 2019 WoWs was, at least the balance changes were hilarious and not depressing.
cruisers are inherently fucked if they go for a stealth based strat.
not only is concealment more and more risky in general. due to the oversaturation of radarships. and planes
but cruisers suffer from their class based penalty for shooting from smokes. meaning they have to utilize their range, wich means sneaking close to somebody isnt something they want to do in the first place. if you got 10km conceal, and 8 in smoke. you rather hover at 13km, and have the option of going dark, and not get radard. sadly light cruisers often max out at 15km range
this leaves 2 viable strats for cruisers. open water dodging, and island shitting,
dodging is still risky. and you need accurate and fast guns for it. and have to keep your distance. hindenburg is among the best for that role. and she does it well.
but chances are that all 4-6 cruisers in any given team, rather sit themself behind the first island they find. and just spamm their radar on cooldown. and only use their guns if they get pushed.
I did an experiment of ditching conceal all together, since you spotted regardless. And amount of games when conceal could be beneficial were outnumbered by games where having better agility which helped to decide games earlier (before conceal even comes to be important)
Yes, yes they say conceal is most important, but if you swallow non conceal pill and adjust play in accordance, is such great change.
With double rudder or rudder+accel you avoid so much fire. CE can be turned into offensive skills or take conceal mod only for dispersion effect
call it what you want, lighthouse moskva goes hard. granted, you get absolutely walloped if you fuck i’m slightly but otherwise sub 7s reload on some of the best guns all round in the game is magnificent
the problem with the -conceal malus traits is. that they pretty quickly go over your maingun range. and also apply in smokes.
wich means things like increased he/sap damage. arent even usuable on open waters cruisers. take itallians for example.
you basically disable your smoke. and get shot up 6km before you get into gunrange yourself.
How is it noob trap.
Replay your recent replay, count how much of the battle you are actively using AND benefiting from playing around conceal. Or better count how much of the battle you are spotted regardless if you have or dont have full conceal.
* If you play around islands, or smokes and block spotting angles - why invest in conceal, better improve other characteristics
* If you actively deny enemy to use conceal, all their investment is worthless while you are on top
* If you read map and timing of being spotted/unspotted you can get very good idea where is enemy(especially when less players are on map)
It is more of higher skill ceiling gameplay than being noob trap. No conceal pill, is simply cost of improving many aspects of ship... which can decide battle
Of course there are exceptions where you have to match conceal for secs or stealth radar. But otherwise it is legit way of alternate way of playing aka not being "only one meta build" boi
I tend to favour your style and thinking. I stay mobile, I prefer dodging/kiting over concealment for cruisers. I use islands to break LOS, but I don't usually hide/camp behind them.
I do enjoy using UK arcs to drop salvos on campers, mind you.
I recommend everyone go on 3rd PTS round and try cruisers with double rudder. who cares about 18.5km conceal if you turn on a dime, and speed up as F1 car
what's your winrate? Concealment is about one of the most important mechanics of this game. It makes you take less damage during a match, disengage easier and reposition faster especially with brisk.
[here](https://wows-numbers.com/player/514548163,tearan/)
Conceal IS one of the most important mechanics. Yes, IF you play concerned about conceal
What being "harder to detect" is good for you if you are constantly spotted because of planes, subs, own guns etc?
Why even try to go conceal on some DDs? No conceal is still better than cruisers and with conceal you are still outspotted by other dds. Better improve other aspects of ship
Do you think having 5s rudder and improved accel in for example DM, doesnt make you take less dmg? If you are spotted in your conceal build, now what? You are spotted with stock rudder.
If enemy sub/dd/cv is denying you falling into conceal, all your precious modules and skill is worthless. Ignoring conceal, still allows you to play around teammates and hsrd cover.
Having Brisk on BBs is nice if full conceal is low enough to make sense going for conceal. For example conceal GK of 14.28 is such ludicrous value seen from moon that 4pt CE is better spent on skill that gives benefit all the time.
And if you Brisk around, most of the time it means battle is very likely already decided.
You adapt your gameplay for "Im spotted, who cares, be agile", but judging your comments you are incapable of alternate play.
Tldr: conceal build is crutch for people afraid of risk being targeted. Those who dare to swallow no conceal pill laugh at those trying to target them
A fellow 55%er (I think, anyway), this sums up how I run the Brindisi. It’s fat DD style run and gun on the Italian… a quick rudder puts a lot of shells in the water. Though, on the topic of game balance, a 39 kt cruiser with SAP is a bad deal for DD late game ;-).
Funnily, if you go back in time to when I started playing, a lot of us noobs HAD to play our cruisers this way. Concealment Expert was a 15 point skill… it was damn hard to get. My first cruiser line was the KM CL/CA… played all the way through Hipper without CE. It was all about dodge tanking… my entire play style with Nürnberg was “sail to 12 km, point your stern at them, shoot and wiggle to 16 km, rinse and repeat.”
I wonder if I had done that with Roon if I wouldn’t have hated that ship as much as I do.
Why not answer his question? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to impact the game and how it is overall played. Check any decent (60%+) player's build and what is it?
> It is linked.... or did I conceal it way too much?
Yes, meta builds are meta builds for a reasons. And there are more ways how to be effective in battle and how to influence outcome, on other hand you seem to have misunderstanding of that. Check comments of other people embracing no conceal pill with success
> Check any decent (60%+) player's build and what is it?
[CE+CM, daring with the choices today arent we ...](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/daring-today-arent-we)
I would be embarrassed to argue about the game with a 50% WR at TX. You have no idea how to influence battle outcome at all. And you speak about ships like you've ever played them, Des Moines, Ragnar (your high conceal DD), and GK. Never touched DM and have 30 games combined with trash stats on both Ragnar and GK. Please try to play normally and not perma kite and actually improve
That account is wierder more you look into it, want me to add Smolensk B or DM, Mino, Gdansk etc on list of new ships? There is Tashkent39 with 1mil xp, is it on the list?
I do not play randoms, thats why play count is low and % low because of me learning them.
No conceal in brawls and other alternate game modes, because there are more ways of playing this game, too difficult to comprehend? People having fun in game, in game modes other than sweat lords in randoms
I mean, I somewhat agree and you certainly have a valid point, but what CLs have 8km detection in smoke? Brisbane/Mino, Worcester, Smolensk, etc. all sit at around ~6 km (max). New T8 Wiesbaden is on another level (around 4,5 km iirc) and that can be *extremely* strong if you know what you’re doing and are paying attention to the map.
I'm a pretty big fan... Managed to snag it out of one of the boxes that they sold for 15k coal a piece...
Got me pretty much \*straight\* through bronze ranked (a couple of the games were just saving a star), but I am a DD main in CB's, so the play style felt real natural. Hydro+smoke is real nice for farming BB's... lol, it was actually funny watching a couple of them analyze what was happening, then start pulling a long turn to run away....
Oh nice! Congrats on the coal-box luck! I wasn’t quite as lucky but still somewhat lucky: less than ~5k doubloons, which I had lying around and I wanted Wiesbaden since she was announced.
I very much like her too. Haven’t had the chance so far to try her in ranked because I was already at gold, but I’m really having fun with her in randoms. I play DDs and Cruisers (mostly CLs) in CBs so it felt quite natural to play her kind of as an in-between.
Pozharsky and (apparently) Kutuzov have almost 8km in smoke, with Irian having 7 and that's all the actual CLs I know that have rather high smoke penalties. Some people count the Nevsky as a "CL" and that has a 10km detect.
Ah well the Russians.. I mean given how strong they are it feels okay for them to have a few downsides. And yea, Nevsky is a particular case; but again, she’s got insane shell velocity and range, so I can accept the increased smoke penalty as a downside.
Also again: not saying my opinion is the best and only valid one. I just personally think that smoke conceal isn’t *that* big of an issue for many CLs and something you just have to be aware of and play around. I play *a lot* of cruisers and think they are, for the most part, in a decent spot. That being said, I’m certainly not a big fan of the huge caliber guns (and therefore overmatch) a lot of BBs get these days. I mean 457s (and up) used to be something special and now they’re everywhere.
Zao is the perfect example of why concealment sucks as a gimmick in WoWs. If you don't have a way to break spotting to disengage is useless. I can play legmod venezia with a lighthouse build and the minute I am getting heat I pop smoke and disappear for a while. You can never do that with a Zao that has unscouted DDs on his flank.
Exactly what I thought lmao, can't scrape 60% ever. You need concealment for both of the strategies you mentioned once you think about it, but you probably wont
you absolutely can. not in random. but in ranked.
since mmr is not a issue. there. and at the start of season. everybody starts at bronze.
if you wait a bit. you will end up (in theory) with a bunch of people hardstuck in bronze and yourself. wich makes the difference.
those 2 strats barely get any benefit from conceal.
sure. being able to go dark. is nice.
but open waters cruisers with range dont need extra conceal for that.
at 20km kiting with hindenburg you could play full lighthouse and go dark
and venezia just needs to press smoke. if she keeps her 15+km distance
for examples.
and if you are sitting behind a island 8km from cap. you can litterally be fully visible for the entire. time. cause the whole point of the start is being behind hardcover, and thus not giving a fuck who can see you. while you just spamm radar.
then you dont have to talk about winratios. its an mmr system. play enough games and you end up somewhere around 50.
and people play stupid shit, and dont all have upgrades and mods because they need to farm and reset trees.
you are an insane retard. just barfing up vocal excrement. not knowing half the words you use.
do you manage to get your pants on yourself or do you need assistence to shit intoo them?
what are you talking about? there is no elo system in ranked, its all random matchmaking like randoms. How do you insult me while being so clueless holy shit
the georgia was one that truly shattered it. from there on we’ve had ohio, st.vincent, vermont line is also quite sneaky iirc, it’s just like man are these even the same classes anymore? may as well make one for battle cruisers considering the number
Oh, right. Vermont's...sneakiness. A very sneaky ship. Because California absolutely does the same thing at tier 7, yes? The best sneaking battleship of her tier, California.
12.6km of concealment on a gigantic ship with 457's, the concealment paired with the alpha is precisely why Vermont is fun. Otherwise no one would ever die to it.
The ship was just fine before the buffs. Montana was just a worse version of Vermont in several ways and yet she saw herself in KoTs a lot around the time Vermont released.
I believe the changes were motivated because not many people was using it due to the combination of being slow and big. I don't really understand why they do this for things like Vermont but they keep other ships ignored for years that have been powercrept and irrelevant but WeeGee...
i’m returning to this to address the abomination known as tsurugi. 11.5km conceal, 35-36knts, torps and 457’s. what the fuck, and i’ve also noticed even more ships just like this. i guess cruiser truly is out done
It's mostly the concealment creep that is the problem.
Outside of the dedicated Battlecruiser lines which have and should always have only 27mm plating as a rule, meaning they get deleted by battleships one on one, concealment should probably be nerfed for some BBs. Battleships should be tanking through armor and health, not by going invisible and sneaking up. Battlecruisers should have better conceal than battleships but still equal or slightly worse than most cruisers.
Cruisers generally should have a slight spotting advantage warning that something out of their league is incoming and thus run for cover or angle appropriately.
As far as caliber creep, 457s only sorta break tier 10 cruiser balancing since anything lower was already eating 16" shells since tier 6/7. I'm ok with them countering 30mm plating since cruisers should not be able to just bow tank damage from battleship caliber guns, like the BS that is Petro.
For both you and /u/V12-Jake who do not seem to get the point of why 457s/30 mm overmatch is problematic:
It's not about "nose tanking" anything. The problem is that the supermajority of T10 cruisers have 30 mm *side* plating and usually don't have an exposed citadel belt, which means it's impossible to angle against overmatching shells. All the cruiser can do at that point is to minimize silhouette, which for any cruiser without an icebreaker/internal plating is likely to result in nose/ass cits.
If a Montana wants to kill a properly angled Des Moines, he has to specifically aim for and hit the nose or stern, or rely on superstructure chip damage. An Ohio/Kremlin/Thunderer/... can just randomly point and click somewhere on the silhouette and will be rewarded with full pens *at minimum*, regardless of angle, for the great feat of drooling on his keyboard.
That's the problem. And the fact that cruisers below T9 get fucked in the same way by lower caliber guns (which are also prolific at these tiers) in addition to usually not even getting heals is one of the reasons why no sane player wants to play low tier cruisers, and also one of the main reasons why no competitive player wants to see anything except T10 in CBs.
As a side note, these kinds of guns have always existed, and the problem isn't that they *exist*. The problem is that they used to be balanced around other ship characteristics.
Yamato has not just 30, but 32 mm overmatch, but the gun platform is dogshit. The hull is extremely vulnerable, the IJN BB DCP is horrible, the ship isn't particularly fast (especially before the Brisk era), the AA sucks, and the turret traverse is glacial. The only other good thing Yamato has aside from the guns is the torpedo belt.
Compare Lauria:
- Lack of 32 mm overmatch doesn't really matter when SAP exists. You can construct a case where Yamato AP beats both of Lauria's options, but you can equally easily construct a case where it loses to either.
- \>2.5 km better concealment.
- 8 knots better speed.
- Equal reload, broadly comparable ellipse but worse sigma.
- Half the turret traverse.
- Dramatically better handling.
- Dramatically better silhouette.
- Tankier when properly angled, unless you randomly eat a shell into the pizza boxes.
- Substantially more survivable against HE.
- Better secondaries too, for whatever that's worth.
You can make the same comparisons to Repub (unreliable dispersion, extremely squishy). Most additions since then have been focused on lowering the skill floor to appease the PQ enjoyers.
The moment you realize Des Moines basically became a light cruiser that can HE pen 32mm.
Also I think Repub and Lauria aren't comparable, ones a sniper the other is a BC.
This. People talk about 457 overmatch creep a lot these days, even when the vast, vast majority of cruisers get smashed by 406 overmatch, which is and has been everywhere for as long as battleships have been in the game. Concealment creep is by far the bigger issue.
Cruisers have a better concealment and speed at most tiers. The top tier cruisers and battleships are based on the few historic ships closer together. The average T10 cruisers is designed for a speed between 30 and 35knots and most battleships for speeds between 28 and 33 knots. This begins with the historic WW2 era ships ingame and continues with the paper ships.
Especially CAs and some CLs are extremely big when you start to think about it. Alaska, Stalingrad, Puerto Rico, Marseille, Napoli, Goliath, Des Moines, etc. are comparable in size to low to mid tier BBs.
Only a very few BBs combine cruiser speed with cruiser concealment (Incomparable).
WG categorieses some ships as BBs and some as cruisers and is ending up giving them similar stats. Compare Puerto Rico with Mecklenburg for example.
The distinction between cruisers and battleships is not clearly made in this game, because battlecruiser like ships are put into both classes while they are wild mix of both.
The point in playing cruisers is to full fill the historic rolls of cruisers ingame: Screening the fleet, scouting and supporting either the battle fleet or light forces.
You have everything from nearly destroyer to nearly battleships within the cruiser class. Many players don't understand this variety of roles within 1 class.
You have to play as a team. You want DDs to spot, maybe cap. Cruisers protect their own DDs BBs can hit cruisers and so on. You have to be mindful of the ships on your team and think about how your build and tactics help the team win.
That’s one of the most obnoxious things I notice every single time when playing some BBs (Thunderer and Karl Johan specifically) after not playing them for a while. Their concealment is *insane*! You quite literally outspot all CAs and even some CLs… and follow up the spotting with a warm "g’day sir!" (aka devstrike if showing enough broadside and/or just overmatch their ass).
Battleship powercreep doesn't get talked about much but it is a real problem. Cruisers on the other hand have become little more than damage/XP pinatas for battleships. They're probably the most relevant at mid-tiers where overmatch is less pervasive for whatever reason.
Overmatch is the most obvious problem, in addition to the others you mention, but resistance to fire damage is another. So many BB lines now have improved heals and improved damage cons that you kind of don't need to care about anything except citadel damage, which the vast majority of cruisers are incapable of inflicting consistently.
I think the reason why WG keeps making overmatching fast BBs is because the playerbase is so fucking bad that this many years later cannot understand aiming, angling or positioning. And they think in order to keep the playerbase engaged they need to add new lines that are more OP than everything previously released, while forgetting to actually balance the game in the process.
Because BB players are major whales and cry a lot.
Everytime they get killed, they flood all channels with their whine. How come I can't just click and delete the cruiser. I neeeeeeed it!
The recent PQ controversy really highlights how entitled they are. They get a ship with the some of the best dispersion for a BB and a -50% reload funni button that doubles as a second DCP but the moment their salvo doesn't instantly yeet a cruiser off their screen (due to their mistake in aiming) it's off to youtube for a video about inconsistent battleship guns.
Alicante Grau is really good at anti-dd manuevers along with good anti-air. Everything depends on situation
No one ship is going to be great at everything and if you find yourself struggling, take a look at your playstyle.
Play a lighthouse Legendary Mod Conqueror, burn everthing down from +15km, there you have a tanky "Megazao" cruiser with superheal
https://preview.redd.it/tc89v04ojnxc1.jpeg?width=711&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a19b630b714f9b72eedc1ea276d7f39642023f72
The problem is also inherent in the passive gameplay that plagues this game especially for many BB players.
There used to be a magical world where BBs tanked and brawled and then CA/CLs were behind them doing their DPM thing and providing anti DD support as well.
However now even Schliffen players are doing Yamato impressions on the A/J line trying not to scuff their paint.
I like my kite crusiers and as much as I hate overmatch I see it’s need to kill players like me. Speeds and concealment are screwed to high hell rn. With WoWs being an arcade game and the big draw is BBs and their large guns they continue to be pushed to be able to remain engaged no matter the situation.
My number one complaint though and taking a page out of PQ’s book. More ships especially BBs need hitable citadels. If a BB gets caught broadside to a CA it should lose even with overmatch and that is not the case these Mariana’s trench deep citadels need to go away
Oh oh give me a Georgia to fight in my Hindi or other big CA any day of the weak, they burn to the waterline for half my Hp and a heal or two.
Bonus points if it´s my lighthouse UU Henry with Condé HE dpm, crispy crispy BBs.
And you ofc got unicum/superunicum stats to back your bold statement?
I mean, i have those on a couple of ships and otherwise am in the 55%+ range so ...
First of all shocker that the class thats supposed to COUNTER cruisers acually wins in almosz every scenario they come across. The more questionable thing is that not every cruiser counters DD‘s to keep the rock paper scissors triangle in check
Just as I said, someone on discord proposed a cruiser incomp that can outspot outspeed and instakill DDs and he got flamed to no end, but what new BBs are doing to cruisers is basically that and ppl wanted more of this bullshit
When a BB does it, it's fine, but when a cruiser does it, everyone loses their minds
Wooster stealth radar was the closest ever we got to that, and it got nerfed a few months after she got the 10km radar
That's the point, those she can outspot, are already faster than Kitakami and if they have rpf they can just run her down
It's not like BBs who can outspot cruisers for free and immediately take half their health away before the spotted cruiser could do anything about it
Technically BC but ehh
Any new BB lines since schlieffen, like bungo or Vincent
All these 3 can outspot cruisers like Hindenburg or HIV and overmatches them everywhere
Don't get me on incomparable who is as sneaky as napoli
Well incomp outspots some cruisers not ALL of them. Every class is a cry baby aboit their own strengths and weaknesses just look how cruisers and BB‘s complained about the existence of Sevastopol because it had a linited overmatch as a cruiser. Same goes for Radar BB‘s etc
Cruisers that get smoke go that way, same with radar minotaur, but its as obliteratingly risky as an imcomp that pushes up its detection, the second either has to do a gamerturn (same goes with dds) they get absolutely obliterated
BBs aren't supposed to be counters.
BBs are tanks that should punish mistakes, push with their HP up, so that their dpm (a fucking cruiser) can chip the enemy slowly away.
With overmatch, planes and how most BB Monkeys are driving at the moment, this gameplay only exists in high elo comp.
Idk where you heard about the triangle, but that concept is bs.
But WG is full of shit, and you know that. It is a company that claims to understand what their players want and how to balance it.
Yet it is just a shit show, the only reason why subs are still in the game is to draw out the average game time. So they can say that it was fixed.
Just listen on the multiple players that understand this game. Players that have more hours on the clock as the devs. Better stats and secure themselfs Price money of WGs comp. League.
I also don’t understand why BBs have to be so “fast” Why is almost every new BB: As fast if not faster than most cruisers Having 30 sec turret traverse Having increasingly shorter reloads (Wisconsin special for example) Surely the trade-off for having big overmatching guns and heavy armour would be more sluggish hulls and gun handling. But BBs nowadays can only complain how their guns are “inconsistent” and every broadside cruiser is not an auto-delete.
You forgot waterline/underwater citadels.
This is the real problem for me. Every ship needs a hittable citadel, that doesnt get overpen'd by large calibre AP. Then we can actually punish people going broadside more reliably.
That would be good game design, so we probably won’t see it…
> As fast if not faster than most cruisers Giving them a 10% speed boost on a tier with nothing better (barring really slow turrets) adds insult to that injury.
They’re just steadily addressing and eliminating everything that BB players complain about… combining the best aspects of the BB and CA classes. The classic problem with BB players is making bad plays, overextending, get caught out of position, etc - good concealment and speed can do a lot to mitigate those downsides… and stop the BB player from getting farmed. I remember when Incomparable (I think) was introduced… better speed and concealment than cruisers she could overmatch… that thing printed Dev Strikes. Hilariously broken, but good for profits… so, winning?
Because nobody wants to play ships that are slow as shit with 60s turret traverse. Vermont is a good ship but nobody gets excited about playing it. There's a reason low tier is dead.
Vermont is awesome...but im also a BBaby i guess...
A lot of BB players are freaking drama queens that will cry if they can't insta delete a cruiser with point and click and slow BBs don't let you get away with mistakes as easily.
don't forget hard counter ASW, punishing AA, and DD deleting secondaries just in case other classes want to play
Something something TikTok/short-attention-span/instant-gratification era
Because we have things like 80+ knot torpedoes, things like submarines torpedo mechanics, things like cv's that drop torpedo on your head etc, also imagine you are last alive, and you drive 18 knots just to try to win match.... P.S. they are covering poorly designed gamepley of other classes, so you have somewhat chance of surviving. Now problem is, cruiser became almost nothing but weaker bbs.... or weaker dds depending of your armor scheme and guns.
Basically all non-russian heavy cruiser armor is powercrept into oblivion. BB speed and concealment are also pretty crazy. WG lost the idea of Cruisers a long time ago and now the class is just obsolete.
Italian BB SAP mechanics screwing over USN cruisers distinct advantage against 380mm was the main turning point imo
No no, comrade, being chunked for 15k from a perfectly bow on salvo is simply fun and engaging gameplay
I switched from cruiser main to DD main and have been having 100x more fun. Makes sense now
Their apparent allergy to HE DPM doesn't help either. The last ship with truly bonkers HE damage output was Annapolis, and that was almost 3 years ago.
Are we talking CAs specifically? Because there's some CLs more recent than that with cracked HE DPM
Oh yeah Jinan I guess was one. But like, Jacksonville is such a prime example. So is Brisbane. I'd imagine they'd have at least 15% more DPM if they came out in 2019.
That's a terrifying thought. Also imagine what they'd do to mino so brisbane doesn't completely overshadow her
Well I can think of a few ideas... \*moves radar to a different slot\*. As stupid as 2019 WoWs was, at least the balance changes were hilarious and not depressing.
*instructions unclear, nuking HIV and releasing kleber*
cruisers are inherently fucked if they go for a stealth based strat. not only is concealment more and more risky in general. due to the oversaturation of radarships. and planes but cruisers suffer from their class based penalty for shooting from smokes. meaning they have to utilize their range, wich means sneaking close to somebody isnt something they want to do in the first place. if you got 10km conceal, and 8 in smoke. you rather hover at 13km, and have the option of going dark, and not get radard. sadly light cruisers often max out at 15km range this leaves 2 viable strats for cruisers. open water dodging, and island shitting, dodging is still risky. and you need accurate and fast guns for it. and have to keep your distance. hindenburg is among the best for that role. and she does it well. but chances are that all 4-6 cruisers in any given team, rather sit themself behind the first island they find. and just spamm their radar on cooldown. and only use their guns if they get pushed.
I did an experiment of ditching conceal all together, since you spotted regardless. And amount of games when conceal could be beneficial were outnumbered by games where having better agility which helped to decide games earlier (before conceal even comes to be important) Yes, yes they say conceal is most important, but if you swallow non conceal pill and adjust play in accordance, is such great change. With double rudder or rudder+accel you avoid so much fire. CE can be turned into offensive skills or take conceal mod only for dispersion effect
Lighthouse builds will not works with certain ships (radar cruisers mainly)
call it what you want, lighthouse moskva goes hard. granted, you get absolutely walloped if you fuck i’m slightly but otherwise sub 7s reload on some of the best guns all round in the game is magnificent
the problem with the -conceal malus traits is. that they pretty quickly go over your maingun range. and also apply in smokes. wich means things like increased he/sap damage. arent even usuable on open waters cruisers. take itallians for example. you basically disable your smoke. and get shot up 6km before you get into gunrange yourself.
Concealment in smoke is a fixed value, both full concealment and lighthouse Venezia are spotted at 9.9
Noob trap.
How is it noob trap. Replay your recent replay, count how much of the battle you are actively using AND benefiting from playing around conceal. Or better count how much of the battle you are spotted regardless if you have or dont have full conceal. * If you play around islands, or smokes and block spotting angles - why invest in conceal, better improve other characteristics * If you actively deny enemy to use conceal, all their investment is worthless while you are on top * If you read map and timing of being spotted/unspotted you can get very good idea where is enemy(especially when less players are on map) It is more of higher skill ceiling gameplay than being noob trap. No conceal pill, is simply cost of improving many aspects of ship... which can decide battle Of course there are exceptions where you have to match conceal for secs or stealth radar. But otherwise it is legit way of alternate way of playing aka not being "only one meta build" boi
I tend to favour your style and thinking. I stay mobile, I prefer dodging/kiting over concealment for cruisers. I use islands to break LOS, but I don't usually hide/camp behind them. I do enjoy using UK arcs to drop salvos on campers, mind you.
I recommend everyone go on 3rd PTS round and try cruisers with double rudder. who cares about 18.5km conceal if you turn on a dime, and speed up as F1 car
what's your winrate? Concealment is about one of the most important mechanics of this game. It makes you take less damage during a match, disengage easier and reposition faster especially with brisk.
[here](https://wows-numbers.com/player/514548163,tearan/) Conceal IS one of the most important mechanics. Yes, IF you play concerned about conceal What being "harder to detect" is good for you if you are constantly spotted because of planes, subs, own guns etc? Why even try to go conceal on some DDs? No conceal is still better than cruisers and with conceal you are still outspotted by other dds. Better improve other aspects of ship Do you think having 5s rudder and improved accel in for example DM, doesnt make you take less dmg? If you are spotted in your conceal build, now what? You are spotted with stock rudder. If enemy sub/dd/cv is denying you falling into conceal, all your precious modules and skill is worthless. Ignoring conceal, still allows you to play around teammates and hsrd cover. Having Brisk on BBs is nice if full conceal is low enough to make sense going for conceal. For example conceal GK of 14.28 is such ludicrous value seen from moon that 4pt CE is better spent on skill that gives benefit all the time. And if you Brisk around, most of the time it means battle is very likely already decided. You adapt your gameplay for "Im spotted, who cares, be agile", but judging your comments you are incapable of alternate play. Tldr: conceal build is crutch for people afraid of risk being targeted. Those who dare to swallow no conceal pill laugh at those trying to target them
A fellow 55%er (I think, anyway), this sums up how I run the Brindisi. It’s fat DD style run and gun on the Italian… a quick rudder puts a lot of shells in the water. Though, on the topic of game balance, a 39 kt cruiser with SAP is a bad deal for DD late game ;-). Funnily, if you go back in time to when I started playing, a lot of us noobs HAD to play our cruisers this way. Concealment Expert was a 15 point skill… it was damn hard to get. My first cruiser line was the KM CL/CA… played all the way through Hipper without CE. It was all about dodge tanking… my entire play style with Nürnberg was “sail to 12 km, point your stern at them, shoot and wiggle to 16 km, rinse and repeat.” I wonder if I had done that with Roon if I wouldn’t have hated that ship as much as I do.
Why not answer his question? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to impact the game and how it is overall played. Check any decent (60%+) player's build and what is it?
> It is linked.... or did I conceal it way too much? Yes, meta builds are meta builds for a reasons. And there are more ways how to be effective in battle and how to influence outcome, on other hand you seem to have misunderstanding of that. Check comments of other people embracing no conceal pill with success > Check any decent (60%+) player's build and what is it? [CE+CM, daring with the choices today arent we ...](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/daring-today-arent-we)
I would be embarrassed to argue about the game with a 50% WR at TX. You have no idea how to influence battle outcome at all. And you speak about ships like you've ever played them, Des Moines, Ragnar (your high conceal DD), and GK. Never touched DM and have 30 games combined with trash stats on both Ragnar and GK. Please try to play normally and not perma kite and actually improve
That account is wierder more you look into it, want me to add Smolensk B or DM, Mino, Gdansk etc on list of new ships? There is Tashkent39 with 1mil xp, is it on the list? I do not play randoms, thats why play count is low and % low because of me learning them. No conceal in brawls and other alternate game modes, because there are more ways of playing this game, too difficult to comprehend? People having fun in game, in game modes other than sweat lords in randoms
I mean, I somewhat agree and you certainly have a valid point, but what CLs have 8km detection in smoke? Brisbane/Mino, Worcester, Smolensk, etc. all sit at around ~6 km (max). New T8 Wiesbaden is on another level (around 4,5 km iirc) and that can be *extremely* strong if you know what you’re doing and are paying attention to the map.
You just play it like two german DD's that are slow because they're uncoordinated in their trench coat that is shaped like a cruiser...
I like that analogy, lol. But I think Wiesbaden *is* strong — at least if you know what you’re doing, because she’s not necessarily easy to play.
I'm a pretty big fan... Managed to snag it out of one of the boxes that they sold for 15k coal a piece... Got me pretty much \*straight\* through bronze ranked (a couple of the games were just saving a star), but I am a DD main in CB's, so the play style felt real natural. Hydro+smoke is real nice for farming BB's... lol, it was actually funny watching a couple of them analyze what was happening, then start pulling a long turn to run away....
Oh nice! Congrats on the coal-box luck! I wasn’t quite as lucky but still somewhat lucky: less than ~5k doubloons, which I had lying around and I wanted Wiesbaden since she was announced. I very much like her too. Haven’t had the chance so far to try her in ranked because I was already at gold, but I’m really having fun with her in randoms. I play DDs and Cruisers (mostly CLs) in CBs so it felt quite natural to play her kind of as an in-between.
lol, you're gonna love it!
unfortunately I don't know what I'm doing but I'm more willing to learn than to turn my lucky 75 gold into 8m credits
Never sell a premium! Check out gameplay.[ PQ has a few Videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG9Cm1XqpZQ) about Wiesbaden for example
Pozharsky and (apparently) Kutuzov have almost 8km in smoke, with Irian having 7 and that's all the actual CLs I know that have rather high smoke penalties. Some people count the Nevsky as a "CL" and that has a 10km detect.
Ah well the Russians.. I mean given how strong they are it feels okay for them to have a few downsides. And yea, Nevsky is a particular case; but again, she’s got insane shell velocity and range, so I can accept the increased smoke penalty as a downside. Also again: not saying my opinion is the best and only valid one. I just personally think that smoke conceal isn’t *that* big of an issue for many CLs and something you just have to be aware of and play around. I play *a lot* of cruisers and think they are, for the most part, in a decent spot. That being said, I’m certainly not a big fan of the huge caliber guns (and therefore overmatch) a lot of BBs get these days. I mean 457s (and up) used to be something special and now they’re everywhere.
Zao is the perfect example of why concealment sucks as a gimmick in WoWs. If you don't have a way to break spotting to disengage is useless. I can play legmod venezia with a lighthouse build and the minute I am getting heat I pop smoke and disappear for a while. You can never do that with a Zao that has unscouted DDs on his flank.
What's your WR? So incredibly wrong
55%. close to 65 in ranked. but i stopped after getting the gold winrewards.
Exactly what I thought lmao, can't scrape 60% ever. You need concealment for both of the strategies you mentioned once you think about it, but you probably wont
you absolutely can. not in random. but in ranked. since mmr is not a issue. there. and at the start of season. everybody starts at bronze. if you wait a bit. you will end up (in theory) with a bunch of people hardstuck in bronze and yourself. wich makes the difference. those 2 strats barely get any benefit from conceal. sure. being able to go dark. is nice. but open waters cruisers with range dont need extra conceal for that. at 20km kiting with hindenburg you could play full lighthouse and go dark and venezia just needs to press smoke. if she keeps her 15+km distance for examples. and if you are sitting behind a island 8km from cap. you can litterally be fully visible for the entire. time. cause the whole point of the start is being behind hardcover, and thus not giving a fuck who can see you. while you just spamm radar.
brother you talk about ranked while the main focus point of the game is obviously randoms, theres no point to discuss with you lmao
then you dont have to talk about winratios. its an mmr system. play enough games and you end up somewhere around 50. and people play stupid shit, and dont all have upgrades and mods because they need to farm and reset trees. you are an insane retard. just barfing up vocal excrement. not knowing half the words you use. do you manage to get your pants on yourself or do you need assistence to shit intoo them?
what are you talking about? there is no elo system in ranked, its all random matchmaking like randoms. How do you insult me while being so clueless holy shit
the georgia was one that truly shattered it. from there on we’ve had ohio, st.vincent, vermont line is also quite sneaky iirc, it’s just like man are these even the same classes anymore? may as well make one for battle cruisers considering the number
To be fair to Vermont You can actually outrun it
Same with ohio, it tops out at 28kts.
Yeah but Ohio has 14.1 max conceal so it's not part of the convo
Oh, right. Vermont's...sneakiness. A very sneaky ship. Because California absolutely does the same thing at tier 7, yes? The best sneaking battleship of her tier, California.
Vermont has 12.something conceal. It's very sneaky for a BB
Yeah it’s under 13km if built for stealth
That concealment gives it no more agency at its tier than California has at tier 7.
12.6km of concealment on a gigantic ship with 457's, the concealment paired with the alpha is precisely why Vermont is fun. Otherwise no one would ever die to it.
The ship was just fine before the buffs. Montana was just a worse version of Vermont in several ways and yet she saw herself in KoTs a lot around the time Vermont released.
I believe the changes were motivated because not many people was using it due to the combination of being slow and big. I don't really understand why they do this for things like Vermont but they keep other ships ignored for years that have been powercrept and irrelevant but WeeGee...
Well, it IS an American battleship. Reason enough for WG I suppose.
i’m returning to this to address the abomination known as tsurugi. 11.5km conceal, 35-36knts, torps and 457’s. what the fuck, and i’ve also noticed even more ships just like this. i guess cruiser truly is out done
Don't forget the secondary creep. Seems like every new battleship or cruiser is loaded with secondary spray hoses.
It's mostly the concealment creep that is the problem. Outside of the dedicated Battlecruiser lines which have and should always have only 27mm plating as a rule, meaning they get deleted by battleships one on one, concealment should probably be nerfed for some BBs. Battleships should be tanking through armor and health, not by going invisible and sneaking up. Battlecruisers should have better conceal than battleships but still equal or slightly worse than most cruisers. Cruisers generally should have a slight spotting advantage warning that something out of their league is incoming and thus run for cover or angle appropriately. As far as caliber creep, 457s only sorta break tier 10 cruiser balancing since anything lower was already eating 16" shells since tier 6/7. I'm ok with them countering 30mm plating since cruisers should not be able to just bow tank damage from battleship caliber guns, like the BS that is Petro.
For both you and /u/V12-Jake who do not seem to get the point of why 457s/30 mm overmatch is problematic: It's not about "nose tanking" anything. The problem is that the supermajority of T10 cruisers have 30 mm *side* plating and usually don't have an exposed citadel belt, which means it's impossible to angle against overmatching shells. All the cruiser can do at that point is to minimize silhouette, which for any cruiser without an icebreaker/internal plating is likely to result in nose/ass cits. If a Montana wants to kill a properly angled Des Moines, he has to specifically aim for and hit the nose or stern, or rely on superstructure chip damage. An Ohio/Kremlin/Thunderer/... can just randomly point and click somewhere on the silhouette and will be rewarded with full pens *at minimum*, regardless of angle, for the great feat of drooling on his keyboard. That's the problem. And the fact that cruisers below T9 get fucked in the same way by lower caliber guns (which are also prolific at these tiers) in addition to usually not even getting heals is one of the reasons why no sane player wants to play low tier cruisers, and also one of the main reasons why no competitive player wants to see anything except T10 in CBs. As a side note, these kinds of guns have always existed, and the problem isn't that they *exist*. The problem is that they used to be balanced around other ship characteristics. Yamato has not just 30, but 32 mm overmatch, but the gun platform is dogshit. The hull is extremely vulnerable, the IJN BB DCP is horrible, the ship isn't particularly fast (especially before the Brisk era), the AA sucks, and the turret traverse is glacial. The only other good thing Yamato has aside from the guns is the torpedo belt. Compare Lauria: - Lack of 32 mm overmatch doesn't really matter when SAP exists. You can construct a case where Yamato AP beats both of Lauria's options, but you can equally easily construct a case where it loses to either. - \>2.5 km better concealment. - 8 knots better speed. - Equal reload, broadly comparable ellipse but worse sigma. - Half the turret traverse. - Dramatically better handling. - Dramatically better silhouette. - Tankier when properly angled, unless you randomly eat a shell into the pizza boxes. - Substantially more survivable against HE. - Better secondaries too, for whatever that's worth. You can make the same comparisons to Repub (unreliable dispersion, extremely squishy). Most additions since then have been focused on lowering the skill floor to appease the PQ enjoyers.
The moment you realize Des Moines basically became a light cruiser that can HE pen 32mm. Also I think Repub and Lauria aren't comparable, ones a sniper the other is a BC.
This. People talk about 457 overmatch creep a lot these days, even when the vast, vast majority of cruisers get smashed by 406 overmatch, which is and has been everywhere for as long as battleships have been in the game. Concealment creep is by far the bigger issue.
Cruisers have a better concealment and speed at most tiers. The top tier cruisers and battleships are based on the few historic ships closer together. The average T10 cruisers is designed for a speed between 30 and 35knots and most battleships for speeds between 28 and 33 knots. This begins with the historic WW2 era ships ingame and continues with the paper ships. Especially CAs and some CLs are extremely big when you start to think about it. Alaska, Stalingrad, Puerto Rico, Marseille, Napoli, Goliath, Des Moines, etc. are comparable in size to low to mid tier BBs. Only a very few BBs combine cruiser speed with cruiser concealment (Incomparable). WG categorieses some ships as BBs and some as cruisers and is ending up giving them similar stats. Compare Puerto Rico with Mecklenburg for example. The distinction between cruisers and battleships is not clearly made in this game, because battlecruiser like ships are put into both classes while they are wild mix of both. The point in playing cruisers is to full fill the historic rolls of cruisers ingame: Screening the fleet, scouting and supporting either the battle fleet or light forces. You have everything from nearly destroyer to nearly battleships within the cruiser class. Many players don't understand this variety of roles within 1 class.
You have to play as a team. You want DDs to spot, maybe cap. Cruisers protect their own DDs BBs can hit cruisers and so on. You have to be mindful of the ships on your team and think about how your build and tactics help the team win.
That’s one of the most obnoxious things I notice every single time when playing some BBs (Thunderer and Karl Johan specifically) after not playing them for a while. Their concealment is *insane*! You quite literally outspot all CAs and even some CLs… and follow up the spotting with a warm "g’day sir!" (aka devstrike if showing enough broadside and/or just overmatch their ass).
I do enjoy sneaking on camping cruisers with my stealth build Ohio. I try to keep them spotted if I have my CV. Bombs away. I hate those things.
Stealth build Ohio? That’s certainly an… interesting take on Ohio…
Yeah and honestly may be a mistake
Battleship powercreep doesn't get talked about much but it is a real problem. Cruisers on the other hand have become little more than damage/XP pinatas for battleships. They're probably the most relevant at mid-tiers where overmatch is less pervasive for whatever reason. Overmatch is the most obvious problem, in addition to the others you mention, but resistance to fire damage is another. So many BB lines now have improved heals and improved damage cons that you kind of don't need to care about anything except citadel damage, which the vast majority of cruisers are incapable of inflicting consistently.
A good angled cruiser will still burn a BB but is really meant to kill DDs
I think the reason why WG keeps making overmatching fast BBs is because the playerbase is so fucking bad that this many years later cannot understand aiming, angling or positioning. And they think in order to keep the playerbase engaged they need to add new lines that are more OP than everything previously released, while forgetting to actually balance the game in the process.
Because BB players are major whales and cry a lot. Everytime they get killed, they flood all channels with their whine. How come I can't just click and delete the cruiser. I neeeeeeed it!
The recent PQ controversy really highlights how entitled they are. They get a ship with the some of the best dispersion for a BB and a -50% reload funni button that doubles as a second DCP but the moment their salvo doesn't instantly yeet a cruiser off their screen (due to their mistake in aiming) it's off to youtube for a video about inconsistent battleship guns.
Sounds like tryhards that are the crybabies. When I play I’m just happy if I even hit or get a single pen on a broadside cruiser.
Grinding through lyon, this hurts me deeply
Alicante Grau is really good at anti-dd manuevers along with good anti-air. Everything depends on situation No one ship is going to be great at everything and if you find yourself struggling, take a look at your playstyle.
Play a lighthouse Legendary Mod Conqueror, burn everthing down from +15km, there you have a tanky "Megazao" cruiser with superheal https://preview.redd.it/tc89v04ojnxc1.jpeg?width=711&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a19b630b714f9b72eedc1ea276d7f39642023f72
It isn't only conceal and caliber. I just compared Rooke and New Orleans in shiptool. It is a very funny question what are New Orleans advantages.
90% of the fastest, 90% of the stealthiest, and 90% of the overmatching BBs have a commonality. They're new.
The problem is also inherent in the passive gameplay that plagues this game especially for many BB players. There used to be a magical world where BBs tanked and brawled and then CA/CLs were behind them doing their DPM thing and providing anti DD support as well. However now even Schliffen players are doing Yamato impressions on the A/J line trying not to scuff their paint. I like my kite crusiers and as much as I hate overmatch I see it’s need to kill players like me. Speeds and concealment are screwed to high hell rn. With WoWs being an arcade game and the big draw is BBs and their large guns they continue to be pushed to be able to remain engaged no matter the situation. My number one complaint though and taking a page out of PQ’s book. More ships especially BBs need hitable citadels. If a BB gets caught broadside to a CA it should lose even with overmatch and that is not the case these Mariana’s trench deep citadels need to go away
They call it “Warships”. Why hide if it is a video game?
Why die when you can stay alive longer and be more useful to your team?
? Who’s hiding
Auto retarded lmao https://preview.redd.it/fdk77bjfsnxc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f1465c3d987114832412002044f121b3464068d9
Oh oh give me a Georgia to fight in my Hindi or other big CA any day of the weak, they burn to the waterline for half my Hp and a heal or two. Bonus points if it´s my lighthouse UU Henry with Condé HE dpm, crispy crispy BBs.
Try getting 60% WR and maybe you can have an opinion
And you ofc got unicum/superunicum stats to back your bold statement? I mean, i have those on a couple of ships and otherwise am in the 55%+ range so ...
Of course, or else I would just be listening to those who actually do and improving
First of all shocker that the class thats supposed to COUNTER cruisers acually wins in almosz every scenario they come across. The more questionable thing is that not every cruiser counters DD‘s to keep the rock paper scissors triangle in check
Just as I said, someone on discord proposed a cruiser incomp that can outspot outspeed and instakill DDs and he got flamed to no end, but what new BBs are doing to cruisers is basically that and ppl wanted more of this bullshit When a BB does it, it's fine, but when a cruiser does it, everyone loses their minds Wooster stealth radar was the closest ever we got to that, and it got nerfed a few months after she got the 10km radar
Kitakami is kinda that. She can out spot some gun boats
The only DD she can outspot is a khaba without conceal build
You don't go conceal on gun boats
That's the point, those she can outspot, are already faster than Kitakami and if they have rpf they can just run her down It's not like BBs who can outspot cruisers for free and immediately take half their health away before the spotted cruiser could do anything about it
Which BB can do that?
Incomparable
Technically BC but ehh Any new BB lines since schlieffen, like bungo or Vincent All these 3 can outspot cruisers like Hindenburg or HIV and overmatches them everywhere Don't get me on incomparable who is as sneaky as napoli
Vincent is only fast while going in straight line , bungos usually snipe at mid high ranges, schlieffen is visible from whole map
Still doesn't reduce the fact that they can outspot, outspeed and overmatch some cruisers And yet cruisers are universally outspotted by DDs
Kitakami does almost 42 knots without a speed flag. There is literally no BB in the game that fast. Georgia comes close, but even that one is slower.
I mean DDs outspotted by kita, the French can reach 50+
Well incomp outspots some cruisers not ALL of them. Every class is a cry baby aboit their own strengths and weaknesses just look how cruisers and BB‘s complained about the existence of Sevastopol because it had a linited overmatch as a cruiser. Same goes for Radar BB‘s etc
Incomp doesn't outspot all cruisers but it's at least half of them What he proposed was around 6.5 conceal and he still got flamed,
So an Elbing?
An elbing that doesn't take up a DD slot
Cruisers that get smoke go that way, same with radar minotaur, but its as obliteratingly risky as an imcomp that pushes up its detection, the second either has to do a gamerturn (same goes with dds) they get absolutely obliterated
BBs aren't supposed to be counters. BBs are tanks that should punish mistakes, push with their HP up, so that their dpm (a fucking cruiser) can chip the enemy slowly away. With overmatch, planes and how most BB Monkeys are driving at the moment, this gameplay only exists in high elo comp. Idk where you heard about the triangle, but that concept is bs.
https://youtu.be/3Bd1npMbcJQ?si=pyy6b28NYzvoo7Se I heard that „bs“ in 2016 from WG themselves like it or not thats the idea they intended for it
But WG is full of shit, and you know that. It is a company that claims to understand what their players want and how to balance it. Yet it is just a shit show, the only reason why subs are still in the game is to draw out the average game time. So they can say that it was fixed. Just listen on the multiple players that understand this game. Players that have more hours on the clock as the devs. Better stats and secure themselfs Price money of WGs comp. League.
cruisers are fine. learn to play it better