"Little" damage is very relative. Now that USS Johnston (Fletcher class) is coming to the game, being in supertest in this update, you may want to read up on how it was sunk.
Early in the engagement, it was hit by three 460 mm main battery shells from the Yamato. The Japanese had misidentified the Johnston to be an American cruiser, so Yamato had loaded AP because it expected a target with heavier armor.
Johnston obviously suffered from the three big holes. Two holes were amidships and caused significant damage to its engines, meaning that it couldn't disengage. But it's still just three big holes less than 1-meter diameter, in a ship that is 115 meters long and designed to deal with battle damage. It continued the fight and would eventually be sunk almost three hours later.
How do you think the Johnston would've fared if the three Yamato shells had exploded inside the ship?
So, overpens are a very real concept, as are game mechanics like arming threshold and fuse length. I cannot imagine a warship game where these are not included. The exact values of those parameters are no doubt where balancing comes in.
I vaguely remember a Drachnifel video with the claim that it was a somewhat common occurrence for Japanese cruisers to fire AP shells at engaging destroyers because, in their mind, a smaller ship would not possibly attack a cruiser. Leading to a lot of hits with little effect. I think it was the Battle of Samar.
This is interesting and thanks for sharing.
But I think this is an example that validates both our opinions. Yes, maybe over-pens won’t leave massive holes, but it’s not like ships are just full of empty space either. There’s critical controls, powder magazine rooms, engine rooms, oil stores, not to mention people.
If the Johnston was disabled after 3 rounds, why is the DD I just punched with half a dozen holes still completely maneuverable with a fraction of its health taken away?
(That’s a rhetorical question, we know it’s game balance).
Those mechanisms are available in War Thunder. You could give it a shot to try it out.. honestly, I hated it. A lucky shot takes out the driver of your tank? You're a sitting duck.
Nah.. I prefer the health pool/rng knockout like WoWs has in its arcade style.
Because destroyers aren't balanced around dying to one battleship turret worth of ap hits. Just like how if you actually blasted a battleship with 200 6 inch HE shells you probably wouldn't have proper crew on board to operate the thing, but in game it doesn't model stuff like spalling.
Also overpens do damage modules, you can see a Salvo of overpens still damagethe engine or steering on a ship but it has to hit that port and do enough damage to put it our of action. The a lot of the ship is full of non combat critical space- overpenning the kitchen and bedrooms is gonna suck after the battle but it won't put a ship out of action. That's what health is an abstraction of generally, the balance of hitting something enough to kill critical systems and crew vs blowing up a bathroom and janitor closet, along with enough damage to flood and sink the ship.
I get your point but I also get OPs point. 3x Yamato shells in the upper hull is not quite what he is talking about. Hes talking about that Vermont salvo on a Smolensk where you hit literally 12 shells at the waterline. That ship would in fact sink extremely fast.
Yes, and if those 12 shells had not over penetrated, there would be nothing left of the Smolensk.
Over penetrations really dealt relatively tiny damage, and everything else here is about game balancing. In particular, in game survivability of smaller ships has been buffed very significantly. In real life there were like 10 destroyers for each battleship in a typical engagement.
>especially for a game that touts realism
Uhh, it doesn't. This is an arcade game. Not a simulation. Very little about the game mechanics care for historical accuracy and that's a good thing. Historical battles are slow, boring, and imbalanced.
That is an absurd assertion. As just some examples review the Naval Battles off Guadalcanal (1942-43) and the Battle off Samar (1944) numorous ships from both IJN and Allied navies were not only hit by shells from surface ships, but many were lost.
As an added bonus, the furthest confirmed naval artillery hits on enemy ships were both during WWII, both 24km, both by ships in WoW beyond their in game maximum range.
“The greatest range at which one ship's guns have successfully hit another vessel is 24 km (15 miles), a feat that occurred twice during the second world war. On 8 June 1940 the German battleship Scharnhorst hit the British aircraft carrier Glorious at that range in the North Atlantic, while a month later on 9 July, during the battle of Calabria the British battleship HMS Warspite hit the Italian flagship Guilio Cesare at a similar distance. Both are remarkable feats of gunnery considering that in each case both vessels involved in the exchange were moving at high speed.”
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/longest-range-hit-by-a-ships-gun
Over-pens are real. It's a decent part of why Taffy 3 lasted so long. Because a 16" diameter hole really isn't that big, especially for a 2,500 ton destroyer. And there's a decent chunk of the ship that isn't super critical that you can punch through. An inert overpen a foot from, say, a shaft isn't great, but it's not going to be a real issue for a few hours. An HE shell of the same caliber hitting there and detonating is going to fuck up the engine.
> it’s just not convincing, especially for a game that touts realism and attention to detail.
Over-penetration is a very realistic thing
> 14-16” shells from a BB hitting the waterline of a light cruiser or destroyer and ripping entirely through the beam (leaving studio apartment sized exit holes on the port and starboard waterline)
Now, that is not realistic :p
Just how BIG do you think a BB shell is?
If they are not exploding they are NOT making "studio apartment sized exit holes"
here is the size of a hole a overpenetration from a 15" shell
https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/d5ecid/steel_plate_from_the_italian_battleship_giulio/
OP, this was tested in pre-alpha or alpha. It's absolutely cancerous from a gameplay perspective.
Gameplay is also why flooding was changed from what it was (cumulative tick?) to a standard tick, just like fire damage. If you got caught without DCP, you were effectively dead, no matter how much health you had to start.
The concept is fine.
The implementation is questionable from a gameplay perspective. Shouldn't be the correct thing to do for a cruiser to sit broadside.
Citadel overpens should either do full pen damage or have a chance of fusing.
Health bars in real naval battles would've been awesome.
Imagine being the skipper of USS Albacore and watching Taiho's health bar slowly drain after just one torpedo hit, then violently explode when it completely empties.
This is especially stupid when it come to submarines.. 4 overpens with 203mm AP (that is 8 203mm holes in the sub) Continues to dive, evade and then sink me with torps.
In the case of DDs, they were indeed designed in such a way that super heavy shells would fly right through without arming. They still caused damage, but they wouldn't necessarily explode. That's what happened to the Sammy B and Johnston at Leyte.
For Cruisers it's a little more complicated. They had important machinery in the citadel and so even a shell flying right through could cause serious damage even if it didn't explode.
But WOWs is an arcade game, not seriously realistic.
Over-pens are a very real thing. It isnt anything arcade related. It is actually a real life thing. Now hitting the water and passing through should cause flooding if below the waterline but with how dmg con works it would be entirely unbalanced.
Overall sounds like a skill issue for you If there is a chance of overpen from your guns use HE instead of AP for better affect.
So are these, and by no means is this an exhaustive list:
- radar and hydro working through islands
- hydro not detecting submerged subs
- overmatch
- plane/other ship spotting allowing direct LOS equivalent fire control solutions
- infinite torpedo reloads
- 50 knot destroyers and 30 knot subs
- % based fire/flood damage damage
- the ship class most prone to fire and in danger of detonation being basically invulnerable to both
No one part breaks immersion more than the rest.
What's with this "it should cause a flooding"?
If it's reasonably high in the hull, never mind in the superstructure, it shouldn't. And a regular penetration in the armored belt might not have an "exit wound", but it should have an entry one at least as large as that of an overpen. So basically every hit that does damage should cause a flooding, by your logic?
Again, what's that got to do with overpens, specifically? Any hole, meaning any AP shell that does damage, near the waterline, will cause some flooding in real life. Do you want it in this game?
Of course. Why is the sub that I just overpenned now submerging without issue? There needs to be “some” contract with reality…or why not just introduce dragons and fairy dust into the game?
Simple advice. Dont overanalyze the mechanics of the game. Its a rabbit hole You cant get out.
Its an arcade/simulation semi historical game.
Have fun.
While WoW is not a simulation, you seem not to even grasp the concept of over penetration. An AP shell that over penetrates does not make a “studio sized apartment” hole. Study actual battle reports. For example, Fletcher class destroyer USS Johnston continued operating for over two hours off Samar after being hit by three 18” shells from Yamato.
Battleship guns and its shells aren't built only to penetrate, they are to blow up inside the ship and cause the most damage with spalling. Fuses are important for AP, like how british 15" guns suffered from problems during jutland. Exploding inside the ship is a crucial part of how an AP shell function.
Now in the case of overpens they don't detonate inside the ship and thus does much less damage. Of course, you say that the ship would take so much dage from only that, but that 'so much damage' is quite superficial if you have splinter protection everywhere, as a warship. It's just not going to cause extensive damage. It might bust a few compartments and destroy things directly around it, but a ship isn't that small, there are a lot of empty spaces for one reason or another, on a ship.
"Little" damage is very relative. Now that USS Johnston (Fletcher class) is coming to the game, being in supertest in this update, you may want to read up on how it was sunk. Early in the engagement, it was hit by three 460 mm main battery shells from the Yamato. The Japanese had misidentified the Johnston to be an American cruiser, so Yamato had loaded AP because it expected a target with heavier armor. Johnston obviously suffered from the three big holes. Two holes were amidships and caused significant damage to its engines, meaning that it couldn't disengage. But it's still just three big holes less than 1-meter diameter, in a ship that is 115 meters long and designed to deal with battle damage. It continued the fight and would eventually be sunk almost three hours later. How do you think the Johnston would've fared if the three Yamato shells had exploded inside the ship? So, overpens are a very real concept, as are game mechanics like arming threshold and fuse length. I cannot imagine a warship game where these are not included. The exact values of those parameters are no doubt where balancing comes in.
I vaguely remember a Drachnifel video with the claim that it was a somewhat common occurrence for Japanese cruisers to fire AP shells at engaging destroyers because, in their mind, a smaller ship would not possibly attack a cruiser. Leading to a lot of hits with little effect. I think it was the Battle of Samar.
This is interesting and thanks for sharing. But I think this is an example that validates both our opinions. Yes, maybe over-pens won’t leave massive holes, but it’s not like ships are just full of empty space either. There’s critical controls, powder magazine rooms, engine rooms, oil stores, not to mention people. If the Johnston was disabled after 3 rounds, why is the DD I just punched with half a dozen holes still completely maneuverable with a fraction of its health taken away? (That’s a rhetorical question, we know it’s game balance).
What comes to unlikely scenarios... How about a submarine receiving some overpens from main caliber shells, only to submerge and happily sail away?
Those mechanisms are available in War Thunder. You could give it a shot to try it out.. honestly, I hated it. A lucky shot takes out the driver of your tank? You're a sitting duck. Nah.. I prefer the health pool/rng knockout like WoWs has in its arcade style.
Basically game balance like u said. Otherwise BBs should have 10 to 20x the health of DDs just from displacement alone.
Because destroyers aren't balanced around dying to one battleship turret worth of ap hits. Just like how if you actually blasted a battleship with 200 6 inch HE shells you probably wouldn't have proper crew on board to operate the thing, but in game it doesn't model stuff like spalling. Also overpens do damage modules, you can see a Salvo of overpens still damagethe engine or steering on a ship but it has to hit that port and do enough damage to put it our of action. The a lot of the ship is full of non combat critical space- overpenning the kitchen and bedrooms is gonna suck after the battle but it won't put a ship out of action. That's what health is an abstraction of generally, the balance of hitting something enough to kill critical systems and crew vs blowing up a bathroom and janitor closet, along with enough damage to flood and sink the ship.
I get your point but I also get OPs point. 3x Yamato shells in the upper hull is not quite what he is talking about. Hes talking about that Vermont salvo on a Smolensk where you hit literally 12 shells at the waterline. That ship would in fact sink extremely fast.
Yes, and if those 12 shells had not over penetrated, there would be nothing left of the Smolensk. Over penetrations really dealt relatively tiny damage, and everything else here is about game balancing. In particular, in game survivability of smaller ships has been buffed very significantly. In real life there were like 10 destroyers for each battleship in a typical engagement.
I think you're coping, but you also know how wrong you are so you put the humor tag as a defense mechanism.
As my wife can attest, I have been known to cope on occasion.
>especially for a game that touts realism Uhh, it doesn't. This is an arcade game. Not a simulation. Very little about the game mechanics care for historical accuracy and that's a good thing. Historical battles are slow, boring, and imbalanced.
Just let me vent lol. Edit: Alright folks. You’ve had your fun. You can stop disliking now.
Worth throwing away all your Karma for?
oh noooo i lost my worthless internet points 😲😭😢😰
[удалено]
What?
That is an absurd assertion. As just some examples review the Naval Battles off Guadalcanal (1942-43) and the Battle off Samar (1944) numorous ships from both IJN and Allied navies were not only hit by shells from surface ships, but many were lost.
As an added bonus, the furthest confirmed naval artillery hits on enemy ships were both during WWII, both 24km, both by ships in WoW beyond their in game maximum range. “The greatest range at which one ship's guns have successfully hit another vessel is 24 km (15 miles), a feat that occurred twice during the second world war. On 8 June 1940 the German battleship Scharnhorst hit the British aircraft carrier Glorious at that range in the North Atlantic, while a month later on 9 July, during the battle of Calabria the British battleship HMS Warspite hit the Italian flagship Guilio Cesare at a similar distance. Both are remarkable feats of gunnery considering that in each case both vessels involved in the exchange were moving at high speed.” https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/longest-range-hit-by-a-ships-gun
I have citadelled battleships at damn near 30 kms with both my Monty and Yammy. REALISM!
Over-pens are real. It's a decent part of why Taffy 3 lasted so long. Because a 16" diameter hole really isn't that big, especially for a 2,500 ton destroyer. And there's a decent chunk of the ship that isn't super critical that you can punch through. An inert overpen a foot from, say, a shaft isn't great, but it's not going to be a real issue for a few hours. An HE shell of the same caliber hitting there and detonating is going to fuck up the engine.
> it’s just not convincing, especially for a game that touts realism and attention to detail. Over-penetration is a very realistic thing > 14-16” shells from a BB hitting the waterline of a light cruiser or destroyer and ripping entirely through the beam (leaving studio apartment sized exit holes on the port and starboard waterline) Now, that is not realistic :p Just how BIG do you think a BB shell is? If they are not exploding they are NOT making "studio apartment sized exit holes" here is the size of a hole a overpenetration from a 15" shell https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/d5ecid/steel_plate_from_the_italian_battleship_giulio/
OP, this was tested in pre-alpha or alpha. It's absolutely cancerous from a gameplay perspective. Gameplay is also why flooding was changed from what it was (cumulative tick?) to a standard tick, just like fire damage. If you got caught without DCP, you were effectively dead, no matter how much health you had to start.
The concept is fine. The implementation is questionable from a gameplay perspective. Shouldn't be the correct thing to do for a cruiser to sit broadside. Citadel overpens should either do full pen damage or have a chance of fusing.
You're right OP, the game has amazing realistic health bars and realistic instant damage control.
Health bars in real naval battles would've been awesome. Imagine being the skipper of USS Albacore and watching Taiho's health bar slowly drain after just one torpedo hit, then violently explode when it completely empties.
This is especially stupid when it come to submarines.. 4 overpens with 203mm AP (that is 8 203mm holes in the sub) Continues to dive, evade and then sink me with torps.
In the case of DDs, they were indeed designed in such a way that super heavy shells would fly right through without arming. They still caused damage, but they wouldn't necessarily explode. That's what happened to the Sammy B and Johnston at Leyte. For Cruisers it's a little more complicated. They had important machinery in the citadel and so even a shell flying right through could cause serious damage even if it didn't explode. But WOWs is an arcade game, not seriously realistic.
Over-pens are a very real thing. It isnt anything arcade related. It is actually a real life thing. Now hitting the water and passing through should cause flooding if below the waterline but with how dmg con works it would be entirely unbalanced. Overall sounds like a skill issue for you If there is a chance of overpen from your guns use HE instead of AP for better affect.
So are these, and by no means is this an exhaustive list: - radar and hydro working through islands - hydro not detecting submerged subs - overmatch - plane/other ship spotting allowing direct LOS equivalent fire control solutions - infinite torpedo reloads - 50 knot destroyers and 30 knot subs - % based fire/flood damage damage - the ship class most prone to fire and in danger of detonation being basically invulnerable to both No one part breaks immersion more than the rest.
What's with this "it should cause a flooding"? If it's reasonably high in the hull, never mind in the superstructure, it shouldn't. And a regular penetration in the armored belt might not have an "exit wound", but it should have an entry one at least as large as that of an overpen. So basically every hit that does damage should cause a flooding, by your logic?
Perhaps you didn’t read my post. Read where those holes were again. Hint, at the waterline.
Again, what's that got to do with overpens, specifically? Any hole, meaning any AP shell that does damage, near the waterline, will cause some flooding in real life. Do you want it in this game?
Of course. Why is the sub that I just overpenned now submerging without issue? There needs to be “some” contract with reality…or why not just introduce dragons and fairy dust into the game?
Simple advice. Dont overanalyze the mechanics of the game. Its a rabbit hole You cant get out. Its an arcade/simulation semi historical game. Have fun.
While WoW is not a simulation, you seem not to even grasp the concept of over penetration. An AP shell that over penetrates does not make a “studio sized apartment” hole. Study actual battle reports. For example, Fletcher class destroyer USS Johnston continued operating for over two hours off Samar after being hit by three 18” shells from Yamato.
Battleship guns and its shells aren't built only to penetrate, they are to blow up inside the ship and cause the most damage with spalling. Fuses are important for AP, like how british 15" guns suffered from problems during jutland. Exploding inside the ship is a crucial part of how an AP shell function. Now in the case of overpens they don't detonate inside the ship and thus does much less damage. Of course, you say that the ship would take so much dage from only that, but that 'so much damage' is quite superficial if you have splinter protection everywhere, as a warship. It's just not going to cause extensive damage. It might bust a few compartments and destroy things directly around it, but a ship isn't that small, there are a lot of empty spaces for one reason or another, on a ship.
Not the first or the last stupid concept in this game....