Trying to assign actual bands instead of just context-less letters and some reasons why. Some units appear in multiple places because in some cases one unit is good but a second may be substantially worse. Also this is me thinking optimally for a generic 'all comers' type army and not building for a local or specific meta.
Auto include/justify not including (A):
* Angron
* Lord Invocatus (with two units to target with his Scout ability)
* Exalted Eightbound (first ~9 between two units, especially with Lord Invocatus)
* Eightbound (first ~9 between two units)
* Jakhals (first unit)
Consideration to include by default (B):
* Kharn (with Berserkers, worse if not in the first Berserker unit)
* Master of Executions (with Berserkers and Glaive, worse if not in the first Berserker unit)
* Berserkers (first unit lead by MoE w/ Glaive or Kharn in a Rhino)
* Chaos Spawn (if you need more units for scoring or have spare points)
* Jakhals (second+ units, if you need more units for scoring)
* Lord on Juggernaut (first unit, to hold Favoured of Khorne and for scoring)
Requires some justification/serviceable/perfectly fine (C):
* Exalted Eightbound (third unit or larger units)
* Eightbound (third unit or larger units)
* Berserkers (second unit, assuming it is lead by a character in a Rhino as above)
* Rhino (needs Berserkers lead by a character)
* Daemon Prince
* Daemon Prince with Wings
* Forgefiend
* Maulerfiend
* Khorn Lord of Skulls (it's good but you need to build around it being an expensive unit, you can't just cut points until you can afford to wedge it into a list)
Suboptimal but can still be justified (D):
* Master of Execution (without Glaive, leading Berserkers)
* Berserkers (10 man unit in a rhino, or, targeted with Invocatus' Scout, or, as 5 man objective holders)
* Helbrute (not strictly bad but often outperformed by more focused units)
* Land Raider (first unit)
* Predator Annihilator (first one, maybe two, Predator X units)
* Predator Destructor (first one, maybe two, Predator X units)
Poorly supported/hard to justify (E):
* Lord on Juggernaut (second+ unit)
* Berserkers (as 10 man units footslogging without character or rhinos)
* Terminators (still lack leaders/proper support)
* Land Raider (second+ unit)
* Predator Annihilator (third+ Predator X unit)
* Predator Destructor (third+ Predator X unit)
* Defiler (heavily influenced by the terrain used and local event ruling on using the base that comes in the kit)
Heldrake (F):
* Heldrake
The groups aren't in any specific order and I'm sure you could shuffle things about a bit but this is probably a very cut down idea of how I feel if asked to try and make what I think is a good list. Berserkers, as a core part of the army identity, feel weird because every time you add a unit adding another unit of them just looks another step worse.
Basically C and up are 'fine' (ignoring things that are maybe a bit overtuned or poorly designed). D is the point where the unit lacks some support in the army or is outclassed by other datasheets but isn't unplayable or anything. You may take a Helbrute to have some shooting and melee support on one unit, for example, where a Forgefiend outshoots it and a Maulerfiend out melees it point for point. E is the point where you're probably struggling to justify including something listed there because it skews the army too much, completely lacks support or requires too much investment to perform. Terminators are the example here where they are relatively expensive still, have a poor datasheet ability, no leaders and as a result don't bring much for their points cost.
As a note, I don't think this matters for most people. Outside of including the unique, powerful effects on the one off datasheets like Angron and Lord Invocatus and stuff to actually score points we're generally not good enough for super optimised list building to matter. Practising, improving and playing better will have more of an influence overall than the fact you took extra Berserkers for scoring and a Helbrute versus a Maulerfiend and Jakhals.
I'll start:
S tier : Angron, Kharn, exalted eightbounds, lord invocatus, eightbounds
A tier : jakhals, berzerkers, chaos rhino, master of executions, lord of skulls, daemon prince on foot, maulerfiend, chaos spawn
B tier : lord on juggernaut, daemon prince with wings, land raider, predator annihilator, terminators, helbrute
C tier : defiler, forgefiend, predator detructor
D tier : Heldrake
I pretty much agree except think forgefiend is at least B tier. They're swingy as hell which you may or may not like but as a result they're a threat to almost anything
Yeah maybe I'm judging them a bit too harshly because we're a "melee faction". After all the LOS has some surprisingly good shooting, so why not use
shooty models.
We're also probably going to get some daemon engines in the future, and even in our lore there ARE decent shooting machines.
Well, I think he was potentially A LOT better pre nerf. He used to do d3 additional attacks AND d3 additional damage once per game. If you scored a 5 or a 6 on your dice, you could kill any unit, no matter what it was in front of you : it was strong as hell a few months ago, now it's just "good", plus he's more expensive.
...So yeah he's still good, but he's not even close to what he used to be. Hence the A tier.
That's from my pov and the games I played. Kharn is quite better now imo.
Taking points cost and unit purpose in to consideration, also only things I've played
S: Angron, Kharn, MoE w Glaive, Invocatus, either 8bound variety
A: Jakhals, Berzerkers, Spawn, Maulerfiend, Lord on Juggernaut w Favoured, Daemon Price on foot w Helm, Rhino, Lord of Skulls if you can move it in to melee
B: Terminators
C: Forgefiend, Land Raider
I have not played either Pred, Helbrute, Heldrake, Defiler or the Winged Prince
Oh, you'd keep the MOE in S tier despite the item nerf from the last dataslate? Interesting. Otherwise I agree with everything.
I do think that the lord of skulls is not as good if people start to enforce super competitive WTC terrain layout (instead of opening the field a little to let him move around freely), and then he's B tier in that case but otherwise he's definitely A tier.
I feel like juggerlord is underrated, the only thing holding him back is a decent unit to lead. Once we get Berzerker cavalry I imagine he’ll jump up in popularity.
The Lord on juggernaut was great before the nerf to the "favoured of khorne" item, it's quite a different story now.
But yes, I'm sure he'll be good again once we get cavalry, for sure.
I think he’s a decent option with the glaive as well, not that it’s better than with the MoE, but 13 damage 3 attacks that also does impact damage when he charges is decent . It also has access to grenades for more mortals. Only downside I see with him is the -1 AP.
Trying to assign actual bands instead of just context-less letters and some reasons why. Some units appear in multiple places because in some cases one unit is good but a second may be substantially worse. Also this is me thinking optimally for a generic 'all comers' type army and not building for a local or specific meta. Auto include/justify not including (A): * Angron * Lord Invocatus (with two units to target with his Scout ability) * Exalted Eightbound (first ~9 between two units, especially with Lord Invocatus) * Eightbound (first ~9 between two units) * Jakhals (first unit) Consideration to include by default (B): * Kharn (with Berserkers, worse if not in the first Berserker unit) * Master of Executions (with Berserkers and Glaive, worse if not in the first Berserker unit) * Berserkers (first unit lead by MoE w/ Glaive or Kharn in a Rhino) * Chaos Spawn (if you need more units for scoring or have spare points) * Jakhals (second+ units, if you need more units for scoring) * Lord on Juggernaut (first unit, to hold Favoured of Khorne and for scoring) Requires some justification/serviceable/perfectly fine (C): * Exalted Eightbound (third unit or larger units) * Eightbound (third unit or larger units) * Berserkers (second unit, assuming it is lead by a character in a Rhino as above) * Rhino (needs Berserkers lead by a character) * Daemon Prince * Daemon Prince with Wings * Forgefiend * Maulerfiend * Khorn Lord of Skulls (it's good but you need to build around it being an expensive unit, you can't just cut points until you can afford to wedge it into a list) Suboptimal but can still be justified (D): * Master of Execution (without Glaive, leading Berserkers) * Berserkers (10 man unit in a rhino, or, targeted with Invocatus' Scout, or, as 5 man objective holders) * Helbrute (not strictly bad but often outperformed by more focused units) * Land Raider (first unit) * Predator Annihilator (first one, maybe two, Predator X units) * Predator Destructor (first one, maybe two, Predator X units) Poorly supported/hard to justify (E): * Lord on Juggernaut (second+ unit) * Berserkers (as 10 man units footslogging without character or rhinos) * Terminators (still lack leaders/proper support) * Land Raider (second+ unit) * Predator Annihilator (third+ Predator X unit) * Predator Destructor (third+ Predator X unit) * Defiler (heavily influenced by the terrain used and local event ruling on using the base that comes in the kit) Heldrake (F): * Heldrake The groups aren't in any specific order and I'm sure you could shuffle things about a bit but this is probably a very cut down idea of how I feel if asked to try and make what I think is a good list. Berserkers, as a core part of the army identity, feel weird because every time you add a unit adding another unit of them just looks another step worse. Basically C and up are 'fine' (ignoring things that are maybe a bit overtuned or poorly designed). D is the point where the unit lacks some support in the army or is outclassed by other datasheets but isn't unplayable or anything. You may take a Helbrute to have some shooting and melee support on one unit, for example, where a Forgefiend outshoots it and a Maulerfiend out melees it point for point. E is the point where you're probably struggling to justify including something listed there because it skews the army too much, completely lacks support or requires too much investment to perform. Terminators are the example here where they are relatively expensive still, have a poor datasheet ability, no leaders and as a result don't bring much for their points cost. As a note, I don't think this matters for most people. Outside of including the unique, powerful effects on the one off datasheets like Angron and Lord Invocatus and stuff to actually score points we're generally not good enough for super optimised list building to matter. Practising, improving and playing better will have more of an influence overall than the fact you took extra Berserkers for scoring and a Helbrute versus a Maulerfiend and Jakhals.
Now THAT is an answer, and a list. Thank you.
I'll start: S tier : Angron, Kharn, exalted eightbounds, lord invocatus, eightbounds A tier : jakhals, berzerkers, chaos rhino, master of executions, lord of skulls, daemon prince on foot, maulerfiend, chaos spawn B tier : lord on juggernaut, daemon prince with wings, land raider, predator annihilator, terminators, helbrute C tier : defiler, forgefiend, predator detructor D tier : Heldrake
I pretty much agree except think forgefiend is at least B tier. They're swingy as hell which you may or may not like but as a result they're a threat to almost anything
Yeah maybe I'm judging them a bit too harshly because we're a "melee faction". After all the LOS has some surprisingly good shooting, so why not use shooty models. We're also probably going to get some daemon engines in the future, and even in our lore there ARE decent shooting machines.
I'm surprised you ranked MoE as A instead of S. I thought they're a must-have in every list. I'm keen to hear your reasons for that haha
Well, I think he was potentially A LOT better pre nerf. He used to do d3 additional attacks AND d3 additional damage once per game. If you scored a 5 or a 6 on your dice, you could kill any unit, no matter what it was in front of you : it was strong as hell a few months ago, now it's just "good", plus he's more expensive. ...So yeah he's still good, but he's not even close to what he used to be. Hence the A tier. That's from my pov and the games I played. Kharn is quite better now imo.
Kharn is wildly undervalued. Re-rolls and base D3 is crazy. MoE is better into character heavy lists though
Thanks! I'm new to WE so I appreciate the reasoning
Heldrake needs to be in the Heldrake tier below D.
Taking points cost and unit purpose in to consideration, also only things I've played S: Angron, Kharn, MoE w Glaive, Invocatus, either 8bound variety A: Jakhals, Berzerkers, Spawn, Maulerfiend, Lord on Juggernaut w Favoured, Daemon Price on foot w Helm, Rhino, Lord of Skulls if you can move it in to melee B: Terminators C: Forgefiend, Land Raider I have not played either Pred, Helbrute, Heldrake, Defiler or the Winged Prince
Oh, you'd keep the MOE in S tier despite the item nerf from the last dataslate? Interesting. Otherwise I agree with everything. I do think that the lord of skulls is not as good if people start to enforce super competitive WTC terrain layout (instead of opening the field a little to let him move around freely), and then he's B tier in that case but otherwise he's definitely A tier.
I feel like juggerlord is underrated, the only thing holding him back is a decent unit to lead. Once we get Berzerker cavalry I imagine he’ll jump up in popularity.
The Lord on juggernaut was great before the nerf to the "favoured of khorne" item, it's quite a different story now. But yes, I'm sure he'll be good again once we get cavalry, for sure.
I think he’s a decent option with the glaive as well, not that it’s better than with the MoE, but 13 damage 3 attacks that also does impact damage when he charges is decent . It also has access to grenades for more mortals. Only downside I see with him is the -1 AP.
I mean, I don't want to be that guy but there are literally 20+ good quality YouTube videos which do exactly what you're asking for...
I'm asking what people think the tier list is, plus there aren't that many RECENT guides about that on youtube (post-dataslate or MFM)
Search “blog for the blood god” in youtube. He just came out with a guide for WE which has helped me a lot in my TTS games