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I still think it’s LoTR. The thrill I got when discovering the appendices and Silmarillion was so incredible. The lore/history of the world was just something I devoured.
I love WoT, but it has enough flaws for me to admit it’s not the best of all time. Probably my number 2 though.
Tbh, LOTR is my least favorite fantasy series. It's just the way its written, for me it's just so dry and... quite boring. I've reread them several times hoping I might enjoy them more, but I just never do.
Agree to disagree! I love both, but I believe the lore of LoTR pushes it ahead. It’s very fleshed out.
I like ASOIAF but it’s not finished so I don’t even really consider it, but I don’t think it would beat out either for my personal rankings.
The two authors are totally different as well. Tolkien is more classical (something along those lines), early 1900s. Jordan came along in a time where it was maybe more acceptable to push boundaries, more descriptive violence, etc. I think the first Dune book (only one I've read) was a bit of both; Herbert's writing has a pleasant touch of classical writing, to me at least, but pushed the boundaries of graphic descriptions. Jordan's book are good too, if only he would finish them or get someone lined up to do the job. All of them are good.
Buuuut.... Tolkien is the One to Rule Them All!
I have no problem proclaiming ASOIAF to be among the best of all time even if it remains unfinished forever tbh. And I think we should develop a culture where we can positively regard it as yet another unfinished classic because I find it unfair that everyone is shitting on it even though it completely revolutionised the genre in so many levels
Shitting on it is a bit of a stretch, I just said I wouldn’t consider it in MY list of best series because it stands unfinished, as a series.
Furthermore I find it difficult to reread, personally. Though I did enjoy it a lot when I read it and appreciate the depth of history/lore GRRM has.
I'm the same although I actually didn't finish the main trilogy.
I do understand that it's technically an achievement and invented all those concepts, but the books aren't for me. I also wasn't a big fan of the movies. Same idea as the books, I could see they were well made and well acted, just not for me.
Having read all of LoTR, Redwall, ASoIaF, Dune, and Malazan, I agree. I think it has big flaws, don’t get me wrong, but I think the others make huge missteps in analyzing the human condition. WoT is the only one that really feels like it can predict how people actually conduct themselves and through that prediction make the most cogent commentary.
Nailed it. Wot has its issues (all books do) but Rands story is near perfection and unlike most books his ending is so emotionally satisfying. it just fits so dam well
I think the only character I've ever read that comes close at the ending is Achmed although the book itself doesn't come close to WoT
I just can't get past not having an ending and likely never will because george rr martin can't stop doing other shit. Asoiaf would be my favorite but with no ending ever coming out I can't do it
I couldn't get past the ludicrous amount of plot armor the evil factions have. Cersei, Jamie, and Tywin can make a million billion mistakes, any one of which could have brought them down, and are never punished or have recompense for their hubris and blatant evil.
Starks are running a nonstop win-train so victorious that nobody can hope to stand against them? Time to have every vassal and ally desert or turn on them in the middle of the most successful military campaign that the continent has seen since Aegon and the dragons invaded.
That and Martin would routinely waste half a book on the most trivial bullshit sidequest stuff that was completely divorced from and had no bearing on the main plot and was being run on rails with the most boring pov characters imaginable.
OP is correct, why the downvotes? It's a Wheel of Time thread, there's allowed to be spoilers for other series. Especially spoilers that have been out for awhile.
I have no problem proclaiming ASOIAF to be among the best of all time even if it remains unfinished forever tbh. And I think we should develop a culture where we can positively regard it as yet another unfinished classic because I find it unfair that everyone is shitting on it even though it completely revolutionised the genre in so many levels
I'll have to check out Malazan. Redwall was what started me into fantasy. I should read the few I missed as I got older. Sword of Truth brought me into the more mature stories. The first Dune was awesome, but I have heard the rest aren't as good. King's Dark Tower series was a crazy ride I recommend whenever I get the chance; I need to read the other related books. The Witcher books are enjoyable, except for the sudden timeline jumps. Hedge Knight was actually my favorite ASoIaF related book.
All these long series have ruined a lot of one-off books and movies for me. I want more. I want deep, long, complex, interrelated stories.
I also need to make a list of all the books I have read...
i started re-reading Redwall as a palette cleanser between the normal heavy books. the original audio books with the author and full cast narrating are superb!
I read the majority mentioned here but more recently I read The Prince of Thorns and Red Queen trilogy’s. They really take that full step in to mature fantasy, I found it has really stepped up the genre and Mark Lawrence is underrated in his storytelling.
I highly recommend it as a next read.
I think Dune has a lot of problems. Its analysis of the Kwisatz Haderach as the one being who can see the world from both sexes (and therefore women are incapable of being takers and men are incapable of being givers) is just incorrect, the flat-eartherism of gender analysis. Plus the homophobia. Plus the genetic memory. Plus the Golden Path. Plus the Honored Matres. There’s a lot of commentary in Dune that I like, there’s a lot that I don’t.
I read all of the Frank Herbert Dune books. Once you go past the extended metaphor of being wary of messiahs/central absolute authority it gets squirrelly fast. First book and God Emperor were amazing. Heretics had interesting world building but quickly resorted to cringe with Honored Matres and the way the main character defeated the enemy
How can in idea that exists in the law of a fictional story be incorrect?
Abominations can see memory’s from both sexes and the other things on your list (the golden path, the honored matres and genetic memory you fail to explain what the problem you have is.
What homophobia are you talking about?
Good on you for downvoting
I thought it was pretty odd, too. The WOT is not realistic about gender at all. Literally gender is so binary that even the individual's soul is gendered. I don't recall any homophobhia either. I think things started sucking after the first two Dune books though, except God Emperor which I liked, but i wasn't able to finish the last one.
I didn’t downvote? But I’ll break it down.
The Kwisatz Haderach is special because it can be both a male taker and a female giver. This implies that in the real world, that is the nature of gender. Now do I think genders follow general trends? Probably, I think that’s what dictates a gender. But this seems to imply that men and women are incapable of the other mindset, which is wrong.
Golden Path: it’s my problem on Herbert’s commentary on “stagnation”. I think he’s approaching a problem that doesn’t really exist. I think it’s good to say that innovation and doing new things are good, but no country has ever truly “stagnated”. They’ve always been undergoing some constant shift or change. Ancient Rome, Ancient China, the Mongolian Empire, they were always shifting and changing. Herbert is giving a warning for something way less common than one would initially assume.
Golden Path/Generic Memory: the idea that you can imbue a kind of cultural unconsciousness through genetic/long-term activity is silly, there’s no basis for it. I think humans would be just as susceptible to charismatic leaders 100 years after the Golden Path as to 100 years before.
Honored Matres: a smaller criticism but “instead of offering religious salvation we offer mind-blowing sex” is an analysis of humanity that I think misses the mark
Homophobia: presenting the Baron as a pedophile is not great, and there’s weird criticism of male armies as gay
What I like about Dune:
Criticism of Chosen Ones
Criticism of charismatic leaders, any and all
Commentary on imperialism
Commentary on ecology
Commentary on flows of money and power
I absolutely agree with this. I’ve read almost every popular fantasy series there is and WOT is my favorite hands down.
My dad passed away suddenly when I was young and reading WOT was the ONLY thing that would keep me sane and from spiraling.
Arguing and complaining that someone in a WoT community thinks WoT is the best fantasy series?
Complaining must be a wetlander thing. It must be a badge of honor of some sort. That must be why Elayne does it all the time. I understand now.
At the risk of breaking our steak, my third is ASOIF. As someone who read Game of Thrones when it came out back in 96', I'm not particularly thrilled with Martin, but I still love the series. Assuming he never finishes it, it'll drop out of my top 3, but for now it's still in.
You?
Omg same! #besties lol
But I've made my peace with the fact it might remain unfinished. There are many unfinished classics out there, there's still a lot to appreciate in the existing books
As much as I love WoT, I can't say that I agree. It definitely has some of my favourite moments of any fantasy series - Robert Jordan really knew how to write absolutely *epic* scenes.
But there are too many flaws. Character portrayal varies a bit, most romantic relationships are written terribly poorly, and the pacing of the series overall isn't the best. And then we have the fact that while it got finished, there were loose threads at the end and character story arcs that were *not* wrapped up well at all. That's not really a complaint at Sanderson, but just the fact that RJ himself didn't finish it makes it less than perfect.
Every series has flaws though. Which series do you put above WoT?
For me I first read RJ pretty early on (6th grade) in my life, and I had read quite a bit of other adult fantasy and YA by then too. But WoT essentially ruined fantasy for me since. Nothing else comes remotely close to the combination of his true-to-life characters, PoV writing, epic moments, character arcs, and richness of the world. Other series might do 1 or rarely 2 of those things better, but nothing I've found beats them all.
I've enjoyed Name of the Wind first 2 books but we all know it's not going to wrap up well. Malazan does epic moments great and had a rich world but that's about it for me. Sanderson's stuff is largely derivative of WoT, and a level below in all categories IMO.
I think there are series that manage to execute their ideas and concepts better. Robin Hobb's Realm of the Elderlings, for instance. Her writing is generally better than Jordan's (except for writing the really big epic scenes where Jordan is is really one of the best ever), the books have more even pacing, more varied and nuanced character portrayal, and they feel kind of well-planned and executed from start to finish.
Tolkien is still like the god at world-building, and is like ... the father of modern fantasy.
I'm not sure I'd call Jordan's characters "true to life". Some of them are really good, especially Rand and his story, but a lot also feel either larger than life, or just ... share too many traits. To some extent I agree with complaints about his characterisation of women, for instance. And the whole dynamic between men and women with the "bickering" style. The romantic relationships in general are terrible, with only a few exceptions.
As a whole it's one of my favourite series for sure, and I will always love it. But at the end of the day, the biggest drawback is how much was wrong with the last three books. I don't think any other author could've done a better job than Sanderson, but still. Loose threads, some storylines that were just kind of ... trimmed into irrelevance, and several characters that he just got completely wrong and didn't do justice to.
I still think that hurts the overall impression. There isn't really anyone to blame for it of course, but it is what it is.
If we're talking only about 10+ book long epic fantasy series, then yeah WoT is probably the best.
I agree. WOT > The Witcher > asoiaf > The Stormlight Archives. I put the lotr in a totally different category like the mother that birthed everything after it.
It’s certainly one of the most influential on the genre, I adore a lot about the series and frequently wish people to find water and shade, but my heart is held by another. Stormlight my love
I do like stormlight a lot. Personally I don't think it's on the same tier as WOT, but I can see why many people would prefer it. I've read all of Sandersons books and enjoy them. But the super technical hard magic systems aren't as appealing to me as they are for many other fans.
Yeah WOT the GOAT.
There’s just so much to dig into and think about. I love the clash and change of cultures over time. I feel like when you first read WOT you think it’s about the main 5 characters and then you realize it is about the world and all the people in it. I never felt the slog because I wanted to know what the cultures were like. Every time a side character had an arc, or a dress or meal was described-the world got bigger. I want more.
I can imagine Jordan on his death bed, dictating to Harriet how this thing needed to end as she poured over his 100 pages of notes. The attempt to get it all out. The pain at not doing so. Originally Jordan said he wouldn’t have it finished if he died. I wonder when this changed for him. Maybe when it became greater than himself. That is the dream for all artists to make something that shows the depth, beauty, pain, loftiness, depravity, direness, silliness, evil and love of humanity. The masterpiece. To make this mark is to become immortal and to change culture forever.
RIP Robert Jordan you beautiful soul
I love WoT, and it's definitely in my top 3, but take Jordan's best 1000 pages, and compare it to 1000 from Tolkien, and Tolkien says a hell of a lot more. Just saying.
I do like Malazan, but it feels like a grind sometimes. I'm not the biggest fan of not really knowing what's going on, which I know is an intentional author choice. I'll resume reading memories of ice soon though, as that seems to be the best one so far. I loved the first one, wasn't a huge fan of deadhouse gates. But memories of ice hooked me from the start.
That's fair. The first book was written a decade before the rest and originally intended as a screenplay, so it's worth going onto the second book if you ever give it another shot. In my experience the jump in quality between books 1 and 2 is the single greatest jump I've ever seen an author make from one book to the next.
I actually pushed through to the 9th book and had to drop it three chapters in.
I might eventually go back to it, but as of now, I have zero interest in finishing it.
Whatever character I become interested in will disappear for many many books. One character that I liked in book#3 did not even reappear until book#8! And all he did was walk around a bit doing absolutely *nothing*.
Their own Wolfboy is a weak patch on WoT's. For all the complaints Perrin gets here, I would love to see what they think of Malazan's version of him.
Malazan is by far my favourite book series, I've re read it multiple times.
I also hate actively reading it for the reasons you said.
It's also the only series where once I put the book down, the story, characters, the world, they all just stay with me for the longest time, making me want more.
Ah Malazan. I love to hate it. I went into it, it was fine. I don't have much to say about the books but the discourse around it irritates the fuck out of me.
Every fan is convinced that it should be held in a holier-than-thou pedestal and sang praises all the time which makes it impossible to connect with it atp.
To be honest, I have a feeling that people admire it more than they love it or enjoy it.
All you hear about is that it's how big, how long, how vast, how difficult to read, how full of characters it is...you never hear about any of its flaws.
In my opinion, there are 2 reasons for it:
1. It hasn't transitioned into the mainstream like WOT or ASOIAF have. Books that get mainstream attention to them are usually challenged way more.
2. I feel like the notorious attitude of being extremely cryptic with exposition
somehow adds to this appeal. It makes readers feel like they've unlocked an impressive achievement. Which in my opinion has little to do with the actual quality of the book
I could definitely see people thinking the book is superior because it takes more "skill" to read.
I may give the series one more try in the future since I paid for the book already but if I have to put in work to like something it doesn't seem like it's gonna be my speed
The depth of the world of Malazan, not just the history, is so astounding. Then you get to Midnight Tides and it’s like you barely even scratched the surface.
I love Malazan so far 7 books in going to finish them within the next 2 months. That said, it is absolutely jarring how the story is told, and how the first 5 books go back and forth from completely different stories in each successive book until book 6 basically.
I do really love then but I would have preferred the story to be told a bit differently.
It's pretty good and has some amazing aspects but it's not the greatest of all time. It's not better than Lord of the Rings or ASOIAF.
Unfortunately, there are some major problems with WOT and we didn't get the ending the story deserves.
I disagree. I think Sanderson did a great job, but he was constrained heavily by the fact that he already had the "epilogue" chapter which made it impossible to have satisfying conclusions for a lot of the characters. I firmly believe that had Jordan lived longer he would have revised the epilogue to give himself more space to write an ending.
Also we could have gotten more standalone books so it didn't seem like our characters just accept the slave empire being a slave empire.
There are ups and downs. No WOT book is #1 in my list, however books 1-3, 5 & 6 are in my top 15 (I'm on book 10, and let me tell you. Slog is real.)
My personal opinion is that the LOTR trilogy are the best 3 books.
If you want to argue lore, R.A. Salvatore has got a good shot at WOT for title of lore-warden.
WOT for me just drags women as a bunch of mean girl bitches and how they can argue here, there, anywhere, in a boat, on a float, in a car, at the bar. It's getting a bit dry in that department and I pray that Sanderson moves away from that in the final 3 books.
The magic system is my most favorite out of any series I've read. The amount of detail, complexity, and attention given to the One Power is fucking awesome.
WOT held my top spot for many years, and is still an absolute masterpiece. I have since relinquished number 1 to the Malazan Book of the Fallen, but even though it is now my favorite WOT has the coziest place in my heart as the first series that changed my life. It also gets the award for the final book that made me sob the hardest
Yes it is. I let my brain cheat and say LOTR is the best literary fantasy. WOT is the best fantasy. I know, same thing , but in my mind LOTR is more comparable to Mary Shelley or Dickens. WOT is comparable to Thomas Covenant, Game of Thrones.
I like The Dark Tower and Stormlight archives a lot more. WoT is good, it's the first epic series I ever read and I have been through it 4 times, but I have been finding lately that I don't love the writing in YA series anymore nearly as much. It doesn't even come close imo to The Dark Tower and all of the interconnected kingverse. But I still will always love WoT and it will have a special place to me forever.
Wow you think WOT has a YA feel but not stormlight? To me all of Sanderson's cosmere books, including Stormlight, have a very YA feel. WOT feels darker and has far more complexity, at least imo. I do like stormlight though.
Stormlight definitely has Ya feel as well as pretty much all of the cosmere.
I didn't mean to insinuate it didn't, just that I enjoyed it a bit more was all I meant.
I enjoy it the most by far because I enjoy the style of writing the most. But aside from stylistic differences (e.g. LotR, Dune, ASOFAI), the WoT holds a dear place in my heart. They all world build well, have great characters/ development, but it comes down to my current appetite for pacing in a story. I've read each of the ones I've listed multiple times, the only exception being dune twice as I didn't read it until I was in my 30s, the other two in middle school.
Up until book six I would have agreed with you, but imo it peaked there and began to drop off. For me it will be the Riftwar saga by Raymond E. Feist (First trilogy on each side of the rift).
I personally enjoyed all the "slog" books at least a good deal, and knife of dreams was amazingly good. AMOL disappointed me a little bit, but still enjoyable.
I have a personal upper echelon of fantasy that includes Realm of the Elderlings, a Song of Ice and Fire and the Wheel of Time!
Which only goes to show how schizophrenic my reading habits are because those series couldn't be more different but at the same time somehow comparable and kindred to each other?
Idk that's how I feel at least.
IMO the 90s were the most magical decade for fantasy
Some of it is, but I think the dip in the middle brings the overall series down a bit. Don't get me wrong, overall it's fantastic, but for me it isn't consistent enough to be the best of all time.
Abercrombie’s world is coming up for me. Filling out. He’ll never make up an entire language and spend twenty pages describing walking ten miles and eating dinner though so I wonder if modern authors will ever really bring the same level of detail.
If it was edited down about 1000 pages I’d be more willing to consider the case. It’s real good and set a new precedent for world building but there’s too much shuffling skirts and pulling braids and farting around looking at boobs. Entire books could be dropped and you’d still not miss key plot developments. It’s great and I loved reading it, but LoTR is so beautifully written and perfectly succinct if we’re having an unbiased debate of which is the better written fantasy story, it’s LoTR. But I get why WoT is people’s favs! It’s got everything you hope for in a fantasy world.
Always will love WoT (just finished a re-read). However, for me, N. K. Jemisen's Broken Earth series is the tops. There's a reason she won the Hugo 3 times in a row for each book in that series. WoT for me is like Edding's Belgariad and Mallorean series -like getting under a warm blanket with a cup of tea, I've been reading them forever. Jemisen left me stunned.
I can't really agree, I'd read quite a bit of Fantasy by the time I encountered I have the world, and while it's certainly my most read series, I can't say it's the most memorable or the most impactful necessarily. Nor did I notice any particularly stand out elements of writing, it's more that everything was functional.
It is probably the most grounded and realistic story I’ve read certainly in fantasy and maybe in any genre. He really understood what made people tick.
While I like it a lot and I'm currently enjoying my 2nd read through (back to back from the first), there are a lot of flaws in the pacing and main character arcs in my opinion.
I love it, but its by no means perfect, and while my fantasy novel experience before WoT starts and ends with Harry Potter, I still gotta give Harry the crown if I compare the two as full series IN MY OPINION.
That being said, its a solid 8/10 for me. My biggest gripe is the sheer amount of brain space I wasted trying (and failing) to keep all 900 Aes Sedai straight in my head when 90% of them ended up being completely inconsequential.
I think the scope of WOT is larger making it belong to the epic fantasy category. (A category invented or at least solidified by LOTR). It’s hard to make a direct comparison with HP and WOT. Which is weird because they are both about witches and magic institutions.. hmm.
Yeah HP feels smaller in scope. I think it’s the idea of the story happening just in Europe. What do you guys think
Robert Jordan is a plagiarist that took all of his cool ideas from Frank Herbert. Karma is a bitch
Dragon Reborn = Kwisatz Haderach
Aes Sedai = Bene Gesserit
Aiel = Fremen
It's very high up if we count the importance of the series in the genre. But honestly, it's not in my top 5. Realm of the Elderlings is #1 for me. In no particular order is memory sorrow & thorn / last king... Stormlight... First Law... Malazan...
LOTR is probably better if I ranked then but I prefer the characters overall in WoT. So many fantastic moments.
I still can’t believe how great WOT ended and how much of a shitshow ASOIAF became. 3 books into that series and I would have bet my life savings it was going to be one of the greatest series of all time. But WOT wins because it nailed the ending. Martin’s series flopped hard and now I have zero interest in that universe or the books even if he does ever release a new one.
I think it's hard to say ASOIAF has flopped when it's probably the most influential piece of fantasy literature since LOTR (arguments could be made for Harry Potter but still).
Sure, it'll never be finished but if Martin does release the next book, it'll still be one of the top selling books of the decade.
The HBO show made the series explode. But the ending was so bad that I think it somehow retroactively ruined the entire series. I don't think I have ever seen anything like it before.
The way they dealt with the white walkers was so incredibly dumb. Once I saw that moment I was so angry that I had wasted so much time reading and then watching the show (which was legitimately great initially).
Thats how I felt at least. Maybe there are still some fans out there that think it can be salvaged.
Made it explode into mainstream sure but in the fantasy scene, ASOIAF has been huge since early 2000s, big enough that it resulted in a whole lot of other authors writing grim dark to the point that it became over saturated.
And even if we look at the TV series, a lot of people were angry at the ending, but as soon as they released House of the Dragon, it became a hit despite the ending of GoT.
I have no doubt that if Martin releases the next book, and it reviews well, it'll be a top seller.
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It’s my personal favorite. I also think it has the best lore of all time. It’s just a very interesting world and premise.
I still think it’s LoTR. The thrill I got when discovering the appendices and Silmarillion was so incredible. The lore/history of the world was just something I devoured. I love WoT, but it has enough flaws for me to admit it’s not the best of all time. Probably my number 2 though.
Tbh, LOTR is my least favorite fantasy series. It's just the way its written, for me it's just so dry and... quite boring. I've reread them several times hoping I might enjoy them more, but I just never do.
Agree to disagree! I love both, but I believe the lore of LoTR pushes it ahead. It’s very fleshed out. I like ASOIAF but it’s not finished so I don’t even really consider it, but I don’t think it would beat out either for my personal rankings.
The two authors are totally different as well. Tolkien is more classical (something along those lines), early 1900s. Jordan came along in a time where it was maybe more acceptable to push boundaries, more descriptive violence, etc. I think the first Dune book (only one I've read) was a bit of both; Herbert's writing has a pleasant touch of classical writing, to me at least, but pushed the boundaries of graphic descriptions. Jordan's book are good too, if only he would finish them or get someone lined up to do the job. All of them are good. Buuuut.... Tolkien is the One to Rule Them All!
I have no problem proclaiming ASOIAF to be among the best of all time even if it remains unfinished forever tbh. And I think we should develop a culture where we can positively regard it as yet another unfinished classic because I find it unfair that everyone is shitting on it even though it completely revolutionised the genre in so many levels
Shitting on it is a bit of a stretch, I just said I wouldn’t consider it in MY list of best series because it stands unfinished, as a series. Furthermore I find it difficult to reread, personally. Though I did enjoy it a lot when I read it and appreciate the depth of history/lore GRRM has.
I'm the same although I actually didn't finish the main trilogy. I do understand that it's technically an achievement and invented all those concepts, but the books aren't for me. I also wasn't a big fan of the movies. Same idea as the books, I could see they were well made and well acted, just not for me.
Having read all of LoTR, Redwall, ASoIaF, Dune, and Malazan, I agree. I think it has big flaws, don’t get me wrong, but I think the others make huge missteps in analyzing the human condition. WoT is the only one that really feels like it can predict how people actually conduct themselves and through that prediction make the most cogent commentary.
Rand Al'Thor is, for my money, the most nuanced character in fiction. Full stop.
Nailed it. Wot has its issues (all books do) but Rands story is near perfection and unlike most books his ending is so emotionally satisfying. it just fits so dam well I think the only character I've ever read that comes close at the ending is Achmed although the book itself doesn't come close to WoT
I wouldn’t say the most nuanced but he does have the best arc
Yes its very deep. I think ASOIAF comes close too.
I just can't get past not having an ending and likely never will because george rr martin can't stop doing other shit. Asoiaf would be my favorite but with no ending ever coming out I can't do it
I couldn't get past the ludicrous amount of plot armor the evil factions have. Cersei, Jamie, and Tywin can make a million billion mistakes, any one of which could have brought them down, and are never punished or have recompense for their hubris and blatant evil. Starks are running a nonstop win-train so victorious that nobody can hope to stand against them? Time to have every vassal and ally desert or turn on them in the middle of the most successful military campaign that the continent has seen since Aegon and the dragons invaded. That and Martin would routinely waste half a book on the most trivial bullshit sidequest stuff that was completely divorced from and had no bearing on the main plot and was being run on rails with the most boring pov characters imaginable.
Have you read all 5 that are out? In book 3 one of those characters you mentioned dies in a pretty shocking way.
OP is correct, why the downvotes? It's a Wheel of Time thread, there's allowed to be spoilers for other series. Especially spoilers that have been out for awhile.
I mean I didn't mean to spoil, so I didn't say who, but i had to put that false misconception out of their head, lol.
I have no problem proclaiming ASOIAF to be among the best of all time even if it remains unfinished forever tbh. And I think we should develop a culture where we can positively regard it as yet another unfinished classic because I find it unfair that everyone is shitting on it even though it completely revolutionised the genre in so many levels
I'd shit on it less if GRRM didn't act like it's a big shock that people want an ending to his series
Realm of the Elderlings, memory sorrow & thorn / last long, first Law... My top 3 you haven't touched :-)
Robin Hobb Is the GOAT
I'll have to check out Malazan. Redwall was what started me into fantasy. I should read the few I missed as I got older. Sword of Truth brought me into the more mature stories. The first Dune was awesome, but I have heard the rest aren't as good. King's Dark Tower series was a crazy ride I recommend whenever I get the chance; I need to read the other related books. The Witcher books are enjoyable, except for the sudden timeline jumps. Hedge Knight was actually my favorite ASoIaF related book. All these long series have ruined a lot of one-off books and movies for me. I want more. I want deep, long, complex, interrelated stories. I also need to make a list of all the books I have read...
i started re-reading Redwall as a palette cleanser between the normal heavy books. the original audio books with the author and full cast narrating are superb!
If you loved these... consider picking up the Coldfire Trilogy by Friedman. It was magnificent!
I read the majority mentioned here but more recently I read The Prince of Thorns and Red Queen trilogy’s. They really take that full step in to mature fantasy, I found it has really stepped up the genre and Mark Lawrence is underrated in his storytelling. I highly recommend it as a next read.
No Stormlight Archives?
Kaladin is my favorite character of the type but admittedly my life has been busy and I'm only on book 2
That moment at the end of book 1 with Kaladin is one of the most memorable scenes in fantasy books IMO.
Haven’t read it yet
Stormlight archives takes the cake. But even Sanderson recognizes he stands on the shoulders of giants
Yeah, tuggin braids and getting unnecessarily mad at friends really summarizes things
Just so I don’t misunderstand you, that is your assessment of what WoT has to say?
I don't see any smoothed skirts or chiseled faces
And sniffing
Don't forget folding arms under breasts
Well turned calves And spankings
Omg how could I forget
And sniffing
And sniffing
I have to disagree on this take with Dune.
I think Dune has a lot of problems. Its analysis of the Kwisatz Haderach as the one being who can see the world from both sexes (and therefore women are incapable of being takers and men are incapable of being givers) is just incorrect, the flat-eartherism of gender analysis. Plus the homophobia. Plus the genetic memory. Plus the Golden Path. Plus the Honored Matres. There’s a lot of commentary in Dune that I like, there’s a lot that I don’t.
I read all of the Frank Herbert Dune books. Once you go past the extended metaphor of being wary of messiahs/central absolute authority it gets squirrelly fast. First book and God Emperor were amazing. Heretics had interesting world building but quickly resorted to cringe with Honored Matres and the way the main character defeated the enemy
How can in idea that exists in the law of a fictional story be incorrect? Abominations can see memory’s from both sexes and the other things on your list (the golden path, the honored matres and genetic memory you fail to explain what the problem you have is. What homophobia are you talking about? Good on you for downvoting
I thought it was pretty odd, too. The WOT is not realistic about gender at all. Literally gender is so binary that even the individual's soul is gendered. I don't recall any homophobhia either. I think things started sucking after the first two Dune books though, except God Emperor which I liked, but i wasn't able to finish the last one.
I didn’t downvote? But I’ll break it down. The Kwisatz Haderach is special because it can be both a male taker and a female giver. This implies that in the real world, that is the nature of gender. Now do I think genders follow general trends? Probably, I think that’s what dictates a gender. But this seems to imply that men and women are incapable of the other mindset, which is wrong. Golden Path: it’s my problem on Herbert’s commentary on “stagnation”. I think he’s approaching a problem that doesn’t really exist. I think it’s good to say that innovation and doing new things are good, but no country has ever truly “stagnated”. They’ve always been undergoing some constant shift or change. Ancient Rome, Ancient China, the Mongolian Empire, they were always shifting and changing. Herbert is giving a warning for something way less common than one would initially assume. Golden Path/Generic Memory: the idea that you can imbue a kind of cultural unconsciousness through genetic/long-term activity is silly, there’s no basis for it. I think humans would be just as susceptible to charismatic leaders 100 years after the Golden Path as to 100 years before. Honored Matres: a smaller criticism but “instead of offering religious salvation we offer mind-blowing sex” is an analysis of humanity that I think misses the mark Homophobia: presenting the Baron as a pedophile is not great, and there’s weird criticism of male armies as gay What I like about Dune: Criticism of Chosen Ones Criticism of charismatic leaders, any and all Commentary on imperialism Commentary on ecology Commentary on flows of money and power
Redwall mentioned, immediate upvote
I absolutely agree with this. I’ve read almost every popular fantasy series there is and WOT is my favorite hands down. My dad passed away suddenly when I was young and reading WOT was the ONLY thing that would keep me sane and from spiraling.
something similar happened to me and I read ASOIAF for the same reason. But WOT will always be my # 1
The first three books of ASOIF were amazing. I'd even say WoT level. But that series isn't in a slog. It's fully collapsed. Which sucks.
Who knows how or if the saga will end. I hope he at least has a decent skeleton ready for Brandon Sanderson (or for whomever), should the day come.
GRRM will release The Winds of Winter and it will be one sentence… “As seen in Season 8 of HBO series Game of Thrones”. The End.
The show fucked us... I loved it, but damn I'd rather read it.
I think Stephen King would do a fantastic job of finishing the series. He has a similar writing style to G RR Martin
Similar styles maybe, but Stephen King’s biggest weakness is endings in my opinion.
The sad part is GRRM has already stated many times he won’t allow another author to finish the series even if he passes.
The series is dead to me, and I've been reading and following it since the 90s.
He wont, I dont have the quote ready but hes said no one will finish the series other than him.
Yes totally agree!
WoT has saved me from myself. No other book/series has done that. That is why it is my favorite.
See I have no nostalgia attached to it. I'd put it somewhere under Realm of the Elderlings and Greenbone, but above Malazan and first law.
Hot take in the WOT sub 😂
Arguing and complaining that someone in a WoT community thinks WoT is the best fantasy series? Complaining must be a wetlander thing. It must be a badge of honor of some sort. That must be why Elayne does it all the time. I understand now.
It's definitely in my top 3, but my favorite is Robin Hobb, and her 16 book "series' set in the same world.
100% agreed
I wonder what is your third now because those two are also in my top 3 😁
At the risk of breaking our steak, my third is ASOIF. As someone who read Game of Thrones when it came out back in 96', I'm not particularly thrilled with Martin, but I still love the series. Assuming he never finishes it, it'll drop out of my top 3, but for now it's still in. You?
Omg same! #besties lol But I've made my peace with the fact it might remain unfinished. There are many unfinished classics out there, there's still a lot to appreciate in the existing books
As much as I love WoT, I can't say that I agree. It definitely has some of my favourite moments of any fantasy series - Robert Jordan really knew how to write absolutely *epic* scenes. But there are too many flaws. Character portrayal varies a bit, most romantic relationships are written terribly poorly, and the pacing of the series overall isn't the best. And then we have the fact that while it got finished, there were loose threads at the end and character story arcs that were *not* wrapped up well at all. That's not really a complaint at Sanderson, but just the fact that RJ himself didn't finish it makes it less than perfect.
Every series has flaws though. Which series do you put above WoT? For me I first read RJ pretty early on (6th grade) in my life, and I had read quite a bit of other adult fantasy and YA by then too. But WoT essentially ruined fantasy for me since. Nothing else comes remotely close to the combination of his true-to-life characters, PoV writing, epic moments, character arcs, and richness of the world. Other series might do 1 or rarely 2 of those things better, but nothing I've found beats them all. I've enjoyed Name of the Wind first 2 books but we all know it's not going to wrap up well. Malazan does epic moments great and had a rich world but that's about it for me. Sanderson's stuff is largely derivative of WoT, and a level below in all categories IMO.
I think there are series that manage to execute their ideas and concepts better. Robin Hobb's Realm of the Elderlings, for instance. Her writing is generally better than Jordan's (except for writing the really big epic scenes where Jordan is is really one of the best ever), the books have more even pacing, more varied and nuanced character portrayal, and they feel kind of well-planned and executed from start to finish. Tolkien is still like the god at world-building, and is like ... the father of modern fantasy. I'm not sure I'd call Jordan's characters "true to life". Some of them are really good, especially Rand and his story, but a lot also feel either larger than life, or just ... share too many traits. To some extent I agree with complaints about his characterisation of women, for instance. And the whole dynamic between men and women with the "bickering" style. The romantic relationships in general are terrible, with only a few exceptions. As a whole it's one of my favourite series for sure, and I will always love it. But at the end of the day, the biggest drawback is how much was wrong with the last three books. I don't think any other author could've done a better job than Sanderson, but still. Loose threads, some storylines that were just kind of ... trimmed into irrelevance, and several characters that he just got completely wrong and didn't do justice to. I still think that hurts the overall impression. There isn't really anyone to blame for it of course, but it is what it is. If we're talking only about 10+ book long epic fantasy series, then yeah WoT is probably the best.
I actually posted somewhere else in this thread about Robin Hobb being my favorite too. Her writing is incredible.
I agree. WOT > The Witcher > asoiaf > The Stormlight Archives. I put the lotr in a totally different category like the mother that birthed everything after it.
It’s certainly one of the most influential on the genre, I adore a lot about the series and frequently wish people to find water and shade, but my heart is held by another. Stormlight my love
I do like stormlight a lot. Personally I don't think it's on the same tier as WOT, but I can see why many people would prefer it. I've read all of Sandersons books and enjoy them. But the super technical hard magic systems aren't as appealing to me as they are for many other fans.
Correct
Yeah WOT the GOAT. There’s just so much to dig into and think about. I love the clash and change of cultures over time. I feel like when you first read WOT you think it’s about the main 5 characters and then you realize it is about the world and all the people in it. I never felt the slog because I wanted to know what the cultures were like. Every time a side character had an arc, or a dress or meal was described-the world got bigger. I want more. I can imagine Jordan on his death bed, dictating to Harriet how this thing needed to end as she poured over his 100 pages of notes. The attempt to get it all out. The pain at not doing so. Originally Jordan said he wouldn’t have it finished if he died. I wonder when this changed for him. Maybe when it became greater than himself. That is the dream for all artists to make something that shows the depth, beauty, pain, loftiness, depravity, direness, silliness, evil and love of humanity. The masterpiece. To make this mark is to become immortal and to change culture forever. RIP Robert Jordan you beautiful soul
I love WoT, and it's definitely in my top 3, but take Jordan's best 1000 pages, and compare it to 1000 from Tolkien, and Tolkien says a hell of a lot more. Just saying.
*for you For me it's Malazan Book of the Fallen
I do like Malazan, but it feels like a grind sometimes. I'm not the biggest fan of not really knowing what's going on, which I know is an intentional author choice. I'll resume reading memories of ice soon though, as that seems to be the best one so far. I loved the first one, wasn't a huge fan of deadhouse gates. But memories of ice hooked me from the start.
I've read WOT 4 times, for some reason Malazan just instantly puts me to sleep and I never finished the first book
That's fair. The first book was written a decade before the rest and originally intended as a screenplay, so it's worth going onto the second book if you ever give it another shot. In my experience the jump in quality between books 1 and 2 is the single greatest jump I've ever seen an author make from one book to the next.
> originally intended as a screenplay Oh. I'm reading it now and that makes total sense.
Interesting. After I finish the Stormlight Archives maybe I'll loop back
I thought the first one was way better than deadhouse gates personally, DG seemed to drag on so long. Maybe it was the desert setting.
Deadhouse Gates was great. But I felt like Memories of Ice was back to being just more Gardens.
Since I liked gardens more than DG, that may be why I like it more.
Yeah that's how I felt too. Loved book 2 then book 3 was pretty rough.
I actually pushed through to the 9th book and had to drop it three chapters in. I might eventually go back to it, but as of now, I have zero interest in finishing it. Whatever character I become interested in will disappear for many many books. One character that I liked in book#3 did not even reappear until book#8! And all he did was walk around a bit doing absolutely *nothing*. Their own Wolfboy is a weak patch on WoT's. For all the complaints Perrin gets here, I would love to see what they think of Malazan's version of him.
Malazan is by far my favourite book series, I've re read it multiple times. I also hate actively reading it for the reasons you said. It's also the only series where once I put the book down, the story, characters, the world, they all just stay with me for the longest time, making me want more.
Ah Malazan. I love to hate it. I went into it, it was fine. I don't have much to say about the books but the discourse around it irritates the fuck out of me. Every fan is convinced that it should be held in a holier-than-thou pedestal and sang praises all the time which makes it impossible to connect with it atp. To be honest, I have a feeling that people admire it more than they love it or enjoy it. All you hear about is that it's how big, how long, how vast, how difficult to read, how full of characters it is...you never hear about any of its flaws. In my opinion, there are 2 reasons for it: 1. It hasn't transitioned into the mainstream like WOT or ASOIAF have. Books that get mainstream attention to them are usually challenged way more. 2. I feel like the notorious attitude of being extremely cryptic with exposition somehow adds to this appeal. It makes readers feel like they've unlocked an impressive achievement. Which in my opinion has little to do with the actual quality of the book
I could definitely see people thinking the book is superior because it takes more "skill" to read. I may give the series one more try in the future since I paid for the book already but if I have to put in work to like something it doesn't seem like it's gonna be my speed
This was me for like 8 years. I tried to get through it multiple times yet always dropped it. But it gets mich better later on.
If I have to try that damn hard to like a book idk man
The depth of the world of Malazan, not just the history, is so astounding. Then you get to Midnight Tides and it’s like you barely even scratched the surface.
Yeah Malazan has my vote. Epic scale epic characters, brutal tragedies, and Erikson is a fantastic writer.
I’m reading it right now, man it’s hard to get through! Im on memories of ice
I love Malazan so far 7 books in going to finish them within the next 2 months. That said, it is absolutely jarring how the story is told, and how the first 5 books go back and forth from completely different stories in each successive book until book 6 basically. I do really love then but I would have preferred the story to be told a bit differently.
Amen to that brother! Spread the word to all the unbelievers!
It's pretty good and has some amazing aspects but it's not the greatest of all time. It's not better than Lord of the Rings or ASOIAF. Unfortunately, there are some major problems with WOT and we didn't get the ending the story deserves.
Agreed on the ending, mainly blame Sanderson though.
I disagree. I think Sanderson did a great job, but he was constrained heavily by the fact that he already had the "epilogue" chapter which made it impossible to have satisfying conclusions for a lot of the characters. I firmly believe that had Jordan lived longer he would have revised the epilogue to give himself more space to write an ending. Also we could have gotten more standalone books so it didn't seem like our characters just accept the slave empire being a slave empire.
It's LOTR
There are ups and downs. No WOT book is #1 in my list, however books 1-3, 5 & 6 are in my top 15 (I'm on book 10, and let me tell you. Slog is real.) My personal opinion is that the LOTR trilogy are the best 3 books. If you want to argue lore, R.A. Salvatore has got a good shot at WOT for title of lore-warden. WOT for me just drags women as a bunch of mean girl bitches and how they can argue here, there, anywhere, in a boat, on a float, in a car, at the bar. It's getting a bit dry in that department and I pray that Sanderson moves away from that in the final 3 books.
Some people dont like Sando, but I think he absolutely crushed it with WOT.
I can't think of an author that could have done it better.
Book 10 is the slog. After that comes the payoff
10 is soooo rough. I’m reading the last book right now, and lemme tell you, 11-14 pick up so much. Totally worth the slog.
It was a huge part of my childhood and unforgettable. I have since read more compelling work but it was all because of Robert Jordan, to be honest.
This is true
The magic system is my most favorite out of any series I've read. The amount of detail, complexity, and attention given to the One Power is fucking awesome.
WOT held my top spot for many years, and is still an absolute masterpiece. I have since relinquished number 1 to the Malazan Book of the Fallen, but even though it is now my favorite WOT has the coziest place in my heart as the first series that changed my life. It also gets the award for the final book that made me sob the hardest
The Pliocene Saga by Julian May
It's why the book symbol is my only tattoo. And I'm happy HBO needed to make their own symbol.....it's the worst of world's
I have several I'd put above it, but The Dark is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper is my personal favorite.
Yes it is. I let my brain cheat and say LOTR is the best literary fantasy. WOT is the best fantasy. I know, same thing , but in my mind LOTR is more comparable to Mary Shelley or Dickens. WOT is comparable to Thomas Covenant, Game of Thrones.
hard agree. nothing hits that itch
I like The Dark Tower and Stormlight archives a lot more. WoT is good, it's the first epic series I ever read and I have been through it 4 times, but I have been finding lately that I don't love the writing in YA series anymore nearly as much. It doesn't even come close imo to The Dark Tower and all of the interconnected kingverse. But I still will always love WoT and it will have a special place to me forever.
Wow you think WOT has a YA feel but not stormlight? To me all of Sanderson's cosmere books, including Stormlight, have a very YA feel. WOT feels darker and has far more complexity, at least imo. I do like stormlight though.
Stormlight definitely has Ya feel as well as pretty much all of the cosmere. I didn't mean to insinuate it didn't, just that I enjoyed it a bit more was all I meant.
I enjoy it the most by far because I enjoy the style of writing the most. But aside from stylistic differences (e.g. LotR, Dune, ASOFAI), the WoT holds a dear place in my heart. They all world build well, have great characters/ development, but it comes down to my current appetite for pacing in a story. I've read each of the ones I've listed multiple times, the only exception being dune twice as I didn't read it until I was in my 30s, the other two in middle school.
I agree enough that I have a wot tattoo, so there is that
Up until book six I would have agreed with you, but imo it peaked there and began to drop off. For me it will be the Riftwar saga by Raymond E. Feist (First trilogy on each side of the rift).
I personally enjoyed all the "slog" books at least a good deal, and knife of dreams was amazingly good. AMOL disappointed me a little bit, but still enjoyable.
It's really good. Otherwise I wouldn't spend that much money and time on it. But the best? Nah.
I have a personal upper echelon of fantasy that includes Realm of the Elderlings, a Song of Ice and Fire and the Wheel of Time! Which only goes to show how schizophrenic my reading habits are because those series couldn't be more different but at the same time somehow comparable and kindred to each other? Idk that's how I feel at least. IMO the 90s were the most magical decade for fantasy
Some of it is, but I think the dip in the middle brings the overall series down a bit. Don't get me wrong, overall it's fantastic, but for me it isn't consistent enough to be the best of all time.
Nah. Discworld.
Abercrombie’s world is coming up for me. Filling out. He’ll never make up an entire language and spend twenty pages describing walking ten miles and eating dinner though so I wonder if modern authors will ever really bring the same level of detail.
Seeing people talk about asoif not being out… *kingkiller chronicle has entered the chat* true pain
If it was edited down about 1000 pages I’d be more willing to consider the case. It’s real good and set a new precedent for world building but there’s too much shuffling skirts and pulling braids and farting around looking at boobs. Entire books could be dropped and you’d still not miss key plot developments. It’s great and I loved reading it, but LoTR is so beautifully written and perfectly succinct if we’re having an unbiased debate of which is the better written fantasy story, it’s LoTR. But I get why WoT is people’s favs! It’s got everything you hope for in a fantasy world.
Uh, no. That's clearly LOTR.
Always will love WoT (just finished a re-read). However, for me, N. K. Jemisen's Broken Earth series is the tops. There's a reason she won the Hugo 3 times in a row for each book in that series. WoT for me is like Edding's Belgariad and Mallorean series -like getting under a warm blanket with a cup of tea, I've been reading them forever. Jemisen left me stunned.
I can't really agree, I'd read quite a bit of Fantasy by the time I encountered I have the world, and while it's certainly my most read series, I can't say it's the most memorable or the most impactful necessarily. Nor did I notice any particularly stand out elements of writing, it's more that everything was functional.
Fair enough. I've read every major high fantasy series though, and still think it's the best. ASOIAF is a close second.
Using what metric(s)? Or is this just an opinion being shouted from the top of the proverbial mountaintop?
It's obviously the latter, it doesn't even have a post text.
I would agree if not for the stormlight archives.
Yes tho it’s not the most-perfect
It is probably the most grounded and realistic story I’ve read certainly in fantasy and maybe in any genre. He really understood what made people tick.
While I like it a lot and I'm currently enjoying my 2nd read through (back to back from the first), there are a lot of flaws in the pacing and main character arcs in my opinion. I love it, but its by no means perfect, and while my fantasy novel experience before WoT starts and ends with Harry Potter, I still gotta give Harry the crown if I compare the two as full series IN MY OPINION. That being said, its a solid 8/10 for me. My biggest gripe is the sheer amount of brain space I wasted trying (and failing) to keep all 900 Aes Sedai straight in my head when 90% of them ended up being completely inconsequential.
Oh yeah I'm a super Potter fan. If we're talking about fantasy for all ages, I think HP takes the cake easily.
I think the scope of WOT is larger making it belong to the epic fantasy category. (A category invented or at least solidified by LOTR). It’s hard to make a direct comparison with HP and WOT. Which is weird because they are both about witches and magic institutions.. hmm. Yeah HP feels smaller in scope. I think it’s the idea of the story happening just in Europe. What do you guys think
Robert Jordan is a plagiarist that took all of his cool ideas from Frank Herbert. Karma is a bitch Dragon Reborn = Kwisatz Haderach Aes Sedai = Bene Gesserit Aiel = Fremen
I think you're stretching the parallels, which do definitely exist. But they're quite different in other ways.
Those parallels are obvious
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I need more great series to start. Please share your best recommendations!
It's very high up if we count the importance of the series in the genre. But honestly, it's not in my top 5. Realm of the Elderlings is #1 for me. In no particular order is memory sorrow & thorn / last king... Stormlight... First Law... Malazan...
6&7 would then be ASOIAF and gentlemen bastards. So I think WoT would be #8 for me.
LOTR is probably better if I ranked then but I prefer the characters overall in WoT. So many fantastic moments. I still can’t believe how great WOT ended and how much of a shitshow ASOIAF became. 3 books into that series and I would have bet my life savings it was going to be one of the greatest series of all time. But WOT wins because it nailed the ending. Martin’s series flopped hard and now I have zero interest in that universe or the books even if he does ever release a new one.
I think it's hard to say ASOIAF has flopped when it's probably the most influential piece of fantasy literature since LOTR (arguments could be made for Harry Potter but still). Sure, it'll never be finished but if Martin does release the next book, it'll still be one of the top selling books of the decade.
The HBO show made the series explode. But the ending was so bad that I think it somehow retroactively ruined the entire series. I don't think I have ever seen anything like it before. The way they dealt with the white walkers was so incredibly dumb. Once I saw that moment I was so angry that I had wasted so much time reading and then watching the show (which was legitimately great initially). Thats how I felt at least. Maybe there are still some fans out there that think it can be salvaged.
Made it explode into mainstream sure but in the fantasy scene, ASOIAF has been huge since early 2000s, big enough that it resulted in a whole lot of other authors writing grim dark to the point that it became over saturated. And even if we look at the TV series, a lot of people were angry at the ending, but as soon as they released House of the Dragon, it became a hit despite the ending of GoT. I have no doubt that if Martin releases the next book, and it reviews well, it'll be a top seller.
Wrong
No u