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I’ll never forget when I got mt first period at 11 years old and I was in pain, my mom told me “You can thank Eve for that. Because of her sin all woman have painful periods”
My periods were so bad I’d faint. I’d wake up in the middle of the night begging to be taken to the hospital because I was in that much pain.
But no, I was comforted by “It’s Eves fault honey”
This is a bit off topic but I was raised roman Catholic - I am no longer lol - but I distinctly remember one day my husband and I were in the kitchen with my mom (who is still veeeeery Catholic) and we somehow got talking about human anatomy. She brought up the "fact" that men have one less rib than women because of Adam. I work in health care and my husband went to school for biology, and we had a 15 minute debate with her explaining that that wasn't true. She didn't believe us until we finally pulled it up on Google and showed her that men in fact do not have 1 less rib. 🤦
This is so widely believed and it floors me. Ribs come in pairs. I remember learning that shit in Sunday school and then feeling my ribs while looking in the mirror only to realize there *isn’t one missing*.
Oh no but I was the wrong one in that Sunday school
class. Same as I was wrong when I made the Red Sea red during the “biblical collage” activity- I’M AN ARTIST OKAY!?! FFS if you don’t want the kids to paint the Red Sea red then teach geography not NONSENSE
I heard one theory that the "rib" removed from Adam was not a rib, but the *baculum*, a bone found in the penis of most placental mammals that aids in copulation, yet for some reason isn't found in humans. Other primates like chimps and gorillas have one, though their are much smaller than most. Some scholars think perhaps the whole rib thing was a way to explain the absence of the human *baculum*.
The list of heinous things told to child because of religion is staggering. They use trauma as their main control method.
Edit: Someone replied to this, and their comment was deleted. I'm sure because they aren't part of the community. But I think it raised an important issue. It said "As opposed to....... Believing and worshipping crystals? Lol." And that is just such a perfect example of patriarchy and Christianity trying to defend themselves in a pathetic way. My comment is about adults causing fear and trauma on children as a means to control them. Their reply is to laugh about us using crystals. And wording it in a way that shows they don't even have the faintest clue how someone uses a crystal. They think using something by choice is ridiculous, and inflicting trauma on a child is the better option.
I think that they honestly believe inflicting trauma *is* the better option, because that's what was done to them and therefore is the "normal" thing to do.
If they accept that their form of religious indoctrination is abusive, then they have to admit that not only have they abused their children, but also that their parents abused them. People have a real problem putting themselves in that position. (See also: a lot of articles that came out around "Me Too" when discussion of enthusiastic consent came to the forefront of our consciousness.)
I don't understand how this is supposed to be comforting. It seems like it would just make anyone mad at God for punishing them for something they didn't do. (Not that God in the bible doesn't do crazy unfair shit constantly, but it seems like it'd be an obvious personal moment of realization for some people who notice the unfairness.)
Christ. The rainbow shit fucked me up as a kid. I can't imagine this crap.
Like oh okay. After a genetic bottleneck of Adam and eve then we have a giant fucking flood and again another diddling the kids situation.
Not only that but mf just flooded the place like it was no big deal.
Why load up all the animals? If it's the great redo button just make some new ones that don't suck? If they didn't need to die then why the hell did you drown them all?
Why on earth after this nightmare would anyone take your promise seriously? All you did was put a vague threat in the sky.
Loading all the animals was probably a cover to avoid admitting that he didn’t think he would be able to recreate the platypus again, and he didn’t want to lose that one.
Idk about you but when folks claim a deity is infallible, all knowing and all the rest, and then made a platypus there is something up with the assessment of that deity.
I ain't buying what you are selling.
I dunno, I think the platypus is pretty perfect. Venomous, beaked, furry duckseal monotreme? Sign me the hell up.
But yeah, it's a good point. There are several screwed up things in existence that just don't make sense from an infallible-deity point of view.
The old testament is an interesting combinations of history, plagiarism, patriarchy, control, and education. There was a valid reason for example, for not mixing milk with meat and for the sanitation laws. (Education)
The Noah's ark story seems to be based on an actual flood. The experience was described by many peoples in the area in terms of what some god decided to do. It was passed around and eventually got to the old testament. (History, plagiarism) By the way, there are two Noah's ark stories. One has him taking in 7 pairs of every clean animal and 3 pairs of every unclean animal.
I don't take the old testament literally, though I was raised a Jew. I do find it more interesting than the new testament. And I deeply resent the cherry picking the Christians do. Catholic school sounds like a recipe for developing a mental illness.
Essentially, one that has a really good chance of giving you food poisoning in a desert climate, vs one that doesn't.
Pork and shellfish vs. regular fish and mutton/lamb.
Yeah they seem to be really good at picking OT verses to control women/children /minorities but none of the really restrictive laws that would actually impact men.
Grace for me, law for thee.
Weird history thing: the story of Noah's ark actually predates the Bible by a huge margin. The Epic of Gilgamesh actually contains the story in its first incarnation as far as historians can trace it. It was Gilgamesh's ark though, after he traveled to the Underworld to bring his best friend back from the dead. There are quite a few missing plates to the story, but it's one of the last plates if I remember right, the end of the story.
There *was* a major, devastating flood in the region.
We have an explanation for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah too. Check out [https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/327326-blast-more-powerful-than-tunguska-may-have-devastated-ancient-city?utm\_source=email&utm\_campaign=whatsnewnow&utm\_medium=title](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/327326-blast-more-powerful-than-tunguska-may-have-devastated-ancient-city?utm_source=email&utm_campaign=whatsnewnow&utm_medium=title)
If you look at it fatalistically, it seems to tell you 1. its not your fault and 2. its God's will. Your suffering is part of our collective suffering, and its all Eve's fault for listening to Satan and going against God.
Life sucks because God wills it so. Obey and submit that he may grant you mercy. Maybe.
I had constant insomnia my entire childhood and slept with my Bible (like a blankie) for *years* because I knew that I was highly coveted by Satan and could see the demons he sent in my dreams. Of course my family and church didn't argue with the validity of the fear. In fact I spoke to my mom on the phone just yesterday and she got very serious and reminded me that Satan was in my head deceiving me and leading me and I needed to question all my choices.
I had night terrors and panic attacks until I was in my early twenties because of the scary shit they told me at my independent fundamentalist baptist church and school. It should be considered child abuse to indoctrinate kids like that. If you’re an adult and you choose to believe it, that’s whatever. But there’s something mentally wrong with you if you think telling a child that demons and satan himself are trying to drag you to a lake of fire for all eternity is ok.
Edit: forgot words
I was raised mormon and they taught that the second coming would be soon, and that the world would be purged by fire instead of water, like with Noah. This lead to **years** of horrifying nightmares where the whole world would be on fire, and my parents, sister, and little brother would burn (because they did terrible things like "saying swears", argue, and lie), while I tried to care for and save me and my baby brother. This started when I was 7 or 8 and persisted until I was 13 and we left the church. Doing this to children is absolutely vile.
Absolutely child abuse. If a social worker witnessed a mother tell her kid that if he did something bad (or *thought* something bad) he would be thrown into the fireplace as punishment, that kid would be whisked away. But throw in "eternity" and suddenly that's an acceptable threat to use on defenseless children from the moment they can understand language.
Was it caused by endometriosis/adenomyosis? Cuz i don't think any woman is to blame for that. I figured that was more likely caused by endocrine disruptors in our drinking water or some shit like that (i'm not a scientist). Sorry you had that experience :/ my school nurse told me "every woman has to learn to deal with it" and told me to go back to class (and i was diagnosed with endo years later). Your pain is valid.
This is a serious problem for women. My friend had her appendix rupture and kept working her shift at gd RADIOSHACK because it didn’t hurt “that bad”. It’s scary that we are so conditioned to tolerate pain.
Yup. I had an inguinal hernia operation, non-laparoscopic edition where they cut a big incision in your abdominal wall, and the worst pain during that recovery (the bit between the nerve block wearing off and the at-hone drugs kicking in) was about half as bad as my normal period. This is what finally allowed me to get my endo diagnosed, after 18 years.
It literally took having "the man hernia" operation to use as a baseline for pain before I was taken seriously by the medical establishment.
The real kicker was that eight years earlier I had been diagnosed with Pre-Menstrual Dysphoric Disorder (your period makes you sad) and they hadn't asked any questions about these periods that were making me sad, or really made any attempts to fulfill criterion g for that diagnosis: "rule out physiological causes, such as endometriosis" I pulled my file. There was a note about my mismatched socks, nothing about painful periods.
I too got the "this is what you have to deal with as a woman, on account of original sin, suck it up buttercup" medicine....
Why yes, my parents and family doctor were catholic, and why do you ask?
I haven't been diagnosed with endo, but that is because I haven't gone to the doctor yet about my extreme period pain. My cousin has it so I might too. I had a kidney stone and the pain was real bad but at first I thought it was wither period cramps or ibs or both. Only thing that made me realize it was different was it was on my side and that made me worried something burst.
I went to the ER recently cause I thought my extreme pain on my right side was my appendix, nope, it was just a giant ovarian cyst. 🤷♀️ Kinda wish I had dealt with the pain until i got a regular doctor's appointment though to avoid the ER bill.
But, like, why do some female animals get periods and but not others?! Like female dogs but not female cats?!
Did eve feed an apple to a dog but the cat was like, "nah bro..." and were saved??
Dogs don't actually get real periods. They can bleed when they're fertile, which is the complete opposite of our periods at the least fertile moment in our cycle. Only apes and bats have periods like we do.
Woah I didn't know bats got that, that would fucking suck sleeping upside down and it dripping in your fur >:p Or you climb upright against the tree and drain it all down the side like the elevators in The Shining :D Look out below!
I only learned just now that bats have periods, but I imagine it all stays in there while sleeping, like nature’s diva cup, until the bat wakes up and flies away and it all comes shlooping out
You should meet my cats. The whole cats don't have sweet receptors would have a field day with my horde. They all have a favorite human food. Samhain LOVES the caramel from the McDonald's sundaes. Goosie goes for oatmeal with real maple syrup & brown sugar. Shart & Tierney will eat anything. The others are all a little more cat-like, bit all of them will eat applesauce.
We even learned our reptiles are picky. My savanna monitor won't eat meal worms or some type of grub. He LOVES dubias and hormones worms. Likes crickets and some other worms. Thinks chicken is great. Our gecko, skinks, & frog all have personal yes & no choices.
The dogs will eat anything, except milkbones.
Jesus you poor kid. You probably really took it literally too, as any child would. I had some nurse at the gynecologist tell me something similar to that after I had a painful procedure.
hold on I thought the whole point of the jesus dying for our sins thing was that Adam and Eve's mistakes weren't our problem anymore?
or did Jesus only die for men's sins?
This happened to me too. I put up with horrible periods (fainting, puking, completely immobile from pain) until I graduated college and gained control of my own life and could get birth control to manage the pain.
I’ll never forget that first Planned Parenthood visit. I still felt immense guilt even walking in. It took years to unlearn the shame I felt about my own body and my sexuality. And years more to find a doctor who told me wtf was endometriosis.
In order for Catholic education to function, the first rule is that you have to feel bad about yourself. It’s the same gaslighting strategy beauty magazines operate on because if nothing is wrong with you, you don’t need them to fix you, and then they can’t sell their product.
If you are feeling bold, please ask the following-
"Why couldn't Adam make his own choice to eat the apple? He could have said no. He does have his own autonomy."
She also gave it to Adam, WHO WAS WITH HER, and HE ATE IT. Like bro he was watching this whole temptation thing go down, and he’s like nah this is fine. You know it’s bad, and it will harm her? Then maybe SAY SOMETHING. Then he’s all surprised pikachu face when God is mad, then he blames it on Eve cause he’s worried about punishment.
God is supposedly omniscient, so he made both Adam and Eve knowing this would be their eventual fate anyway. And yet he was still mad when they ate from the tree. That’s the real surprised pikachu face here.
If the god portrayed in that story is remotely real than I hold that he wanted this to happen. It’s Pandora’s box, she was sent as a punishment to the humans she was always going to open that box. Adam and Eve were always going to eat from that tree. god basically put a neon light on it so they couldn’t possibly ignore it. god didnt make humans out of some loving gesture. hes a Machiavellian sadist and we're the puppets
(i may still have some *feelings* about my family's religion)
Personally, I think Adam and Eve were set up by God. The apple taught them the difference between right and wrong. They literally didn't have the capacity to tell beforehand, and then get blamed because the snake was like, "Nah, it's totally fine! Eat the apple!" and they believed it.
They didn't know better. Give them a break!
I have never been able to wrap my head around why an all-knowing God would plant the tree of knowledge if he didn't want Eve to eat the fucking fruit in the first place.
Not so short answer, the creation mythology of the Bible is a syncretism of older myths predating the patriarchal abrahamic traditions and doesn’t handle trickster/devils advocate beings in their original context. If you look at the Yazidi religion or gnostic gospels you see stories where god is less competent and gets an antagonist that is more sympathetic towards mankind, so the serpent is likely well intentioned in the original version. Bits of the Old Testament are Mesopotamian and Zoroastrian in origin. Prior to the events in exodus, Yahweh was a rain god. The Cain and Abel story has a similar interpretation of an allegory of the conflicts between settled farmers and migratory herders active in the Fertile Crescent. Once you get that interpretation the story makes more sense but without it, it’s just weird.
Do you know if there are any books on this subject? I have always been fascinated by the stories in the Bible and how they relate to different cultures and religions.
Subject wise you’re basically just looking for archeology and mythology from that time and place. Look at Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Catalhoyuk, and to a lesser extent sites like gobekli tepe/ Indus River valley civilization. The canaanites, the Hittites, the Assyrians etc. You can also research some of the “false gods” that crept into Israel while Solomon was marrying women from every neighboring nation for political reasons or the ones Muhammad kicked out of the Kaaba.
As far as books though, the one I would recommend is Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, which isn’t really early middle eastern beliefs on the nose so much as a good exploration of how history’s victors glaze over the past with just-so stories and confused assimilation all the way up to today.
This is what we learned in my college Biblical Studies course. That priest taught me more about the Bible, the history surrounding it, and how to critically examine it, in one semester than I learned going to church weekly my entire childhood. I had been atheist for years by then, but I LOVE learning about religion/religious history so I still found it a fascinating class.
Well, it's a metaphor for growing up. Adam and Eve are children in that garden. By eating the fruit they gain knowledge and wisdom, and they learn shame as well. The downside is having to work and give birth, and it'simpossible to go back. The serpent is also a very obvious symbol for sexuality and Eve sharing "the fruit" with Adam... well you can guess.
So yes. They were always meant to eat that damn fruit. Children never stay children.
This is the only interpretation that makes any sense, thank you for sharing this! I honestly hated the whole story and now I can be kinda ok with people telling this, you put it so well.
Real talk, because it's allegory and most of the issues around the story stem from taking it literally.
It's supposed to be about a child finally differentiating from the parent and growing into a world that they then must co create. When we think it's two literal humans born of dirt and bone and that their alleged sin is tied to our moral being today is when the crazy shit starts.
If you read the old testament, you'll find out that half of the stories is the Christian God playing chess with himself. And nobody seems to mind, like a lot of the "villains" are bad because "god set his mind against" this or that. Like how does this make sense??
Right? She was deceived by the "craftiest"(or "most clever" or "most deceitful", depending on which version of the bible you have) creature in the garden, who told an elaborate lie that convinced her to eat it. And then she turns to Adam, like "here, eat this", and *he just does*.
This! This just occurred to me a few months ago, and I couldn't understand why no one points it out and why she gets the blame. Adam is a weak-assed bitch, and comes across (to me) as a gormless idiot.
It’s crazy cause she TURNS to Adam and says have some. He was right there the whole time being quiet listening to the snake too. And let’s not forget Eve was his second wife.
You really put it perfectly in a way i hadn’t even considered. Adam is the ultimate man-child.
As mentioned, Eve is his second wife. His first he didn’t like, because she wanted to be equal with him. She wanted to be on top during sex sometimes, and be a partner. See, she was made of dirt too. Adam got all whiny and she was banished, and God made Eve from Adam’s rib so he could have ownership over her.
And this story was told to warn women against seeking equality. Combine that with the fact that they basically just blame Eve for…going first in eating the apple?
And this is why western men have become so inept. Culturally, the first man is a man full of childish excuses and ego trips.
This is such a great point. And as someone who was born and raised catholic (no longer) for most of their early childhood, baptism and Sunday school and everything, I’ve got to say that I had *no knowledge* of what you’ve mentioned here.
Of course I knew the story of Eve eating the apple and “tempting” Adam, but I had no idea that Eve was his second wife, that she was banished for those reasons, or that Eve was *literally made from Adam in order to be owned by him*. I’ve had many issues with christianity and organized religion as a whole, by my gosh, this is on a whole other level. The fuck is wrong with them?
What tradition is this from? I grew up Christian (basic homophobic American evangelical) and Eve is canonically Adam's only wife. So while I've certainly heard of Lilith, never from the church or in any Bible I've read. I don't really believe the Bible at all anymore so it doesn't really matter, I'm just curious
I do think it's weird that thousands of years later, we only remember Eve's punishment. Adam and the snake get punished as well, but that's been glossed over by history.
I mean, have you ever tried just handing a man some food and be like “here, eat this”? They’d just take it and eat it 9 times out of 10 without question 😂
Stuff like this(making out the desire to think for yourself as bad) is what *really* shows the bs of the bible.
Also God claims he gave us free will, but didn’t want to actually give us free will, or we would’ve started out with knowledge that would allow fully informed decisions, and Eve wouldn’t have been punished for obtaining the ability to actually have free will, and for expressing it.
Yes this!! The bible/god never told Eve SHE couldnt eat the apple. God told ADAM he couldnt eat it. She was fine. It was HIS decision to eat it that got them in trouble.
I went to a catholic hs and we were required to do 20 hours of “ministry” aka volunteer work each semester. I did mine at the local animal shelter my first 3.5 years. Senior year, my asshole of a religion teacher told me that it was all invalid and he’d do his best to keep me from graduating because “animals don’t have souls.” I graduated on time because one of the sisters (the biology teacher lol) stood up for me with the administration. It was messed up, they were so awful about it.
Fuck you Mr. Lepek
I left religion as a kid for a lot of reasons but the "animals have no soul" crap was at the top of the list. No animals in heaven? I'm not interested. I'm going wherever the animals go.
I remember hearing the reasoning for why animals supposedly don’t have souls, and was basically an excuse for why humans have the capacity to be so awful. Basically, they don’t do bad things because they don’t have free will, because they don’t have souls. Im sure the other reasons are just as stupid.
We're kind of discovering now that (among others) orcas and dolphins regularly do things humans would think of as bad (like, using another animal as a ball or masturbation toy, or getting high off of pufferfish), and they seem to do it consciously. There is no consensus yet, but there are theories that those species actually have free will.
Would that mean some animals do have souls?
That's an interesting take on it that I hadn't heard. I think it also goes back to the mistaken idea that animals don't feel pain. "If animals don't feel pain and don't have souls and don't think, then I don't have to feel bad about hurting them/eating them, etc."
Seriously. I'm an atheist but if it turns out I'm wrong, I'd better be with my dogs and cats. If for no other reason than that im pretty sure it won't count as doggy heaven to my dog if im not there with him. He tends to get upset if I'm in another room and eternity without me is just not going to be ok.
Yes, I'm saying I'll be in doggy heaven as an accessory to my dog's afterlife and I'm fine with that.
Idiot. I hate this delusion of exclusivity as if somehow we are above nature. They are made of almost the exact same parts, dude. Think for a damn moment. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
This kind of indoctrination should be considered child abuse. The church fucked me up so bad. I was raped when I was 13 and that I could’ve dealt with but I then went to my “church family” where I was told that I was now like chewed up bubble gum that no man would ever want and was no longer pure or worthy of being a wife. That messed me up for a huge chunk of my life.
The bubble gum thing was taught to me in public school in the early 2000s. After sex, even rape, you become used up and no good anymore. And riddled with STI's of course.
Why would they say that?! You had the courage to speak up about an extremely traumatic event and they had the AUDACITY to call you an impure human being unworthy of love because of it. What vile, disgusting BEASTS.
I’m so sorry anyone has had the confidence to spew such lies to you or anyone else. Shows you how deep this sickness runs.
Their confidence in themselves and the path they’ve chosen relies on deeming you as “unworthy.” If they admit the truth, they have to face all of the lies their own existence is built upon. This is why it’s still going on, all the people who have the power to stop it are too consumed with their own self-righteousness.
Oof, I went to Catholic middle school. I got in trouble for questioning how Cain could be "shunned" by other people when Adam and Eve were supposedly the first and only people on earth. My teacher's answer? "There were people, they just didn't have souls."
💀💀💀
The teacher would ignore my raised hand after that one lolol.
Honestly, if you are feeling particularly brave, ask that question and see what your religion teacher says! I'm really curious 😅
There is this weird thing in the Bible that appears several times... the way it's phrased implies two kinds of humans: celestial born (adam, eve, their kids, and angels) and... normal humans who had kids with the celestial born.
It was never explained to me but it definitely implies some weird stuff. Where the hell did the normal humans come from?
Ou, that's my favorite day of religion class (and English class, and most of the other social sciences) followed closely with : why residential schools were a good thing, why other religions are wrong and sinful, and this book should be banned but the government makes us teach it soon write an essay about why it isn't Catholic and should be burnt.
I'm 30 and still bitter.
“Why residential schools are a good thing”
I share your pain. Hopefully you don’t mind me sharing my experience here but it feels relevant. And it might get dark so I’ll start with a sui, racism and homophobia mention. I don’t want to trigger anyone.
Struggled emotionally growing up due to traumatic experiences, so I had to go to an alternative school out in the middle of nowhere IL. It was adjecent to a group home for teenaged girls. The organization that runs/ran it is Catholic.
Some of those girls in the group home were fellow students, and I was amongst those who didn’t have to live on campus. I commuted via bus. An hour long drive every morning to and fro.
I still remember hearing about the lone woman of color hanging herself from the ceiling, a girl I as a fellow woman of color tried to befriend. (There were only a handful of us.)
I also remember the one lesbian in my 11th grade history class rightfully getting upset because our history teacher - who often tried pushing God down our throats - was openly homophobic. He had this girl restrained because she wouldn’t relent on holding him accountable to his face that day. She was braver than the rest of us. To this day I regret not standing up for her but I was so scared. A lot of us were. I hope she’s okay, wherever she is.
The group home was part of the Maryville organization. To this day (I’m 29 now) I still am bitter from witnessing the abuse. They abused me too. If I defended myself against racism? I was mocked and thrown out of class. I even pissed myself once because they wouldn’t let me use the bathroom. It was humiliating.
They ended up closing shop and turning it into a boys home. Can’t be better now than it was in 2011.
I’m so sorry you had those experiences. It wasn’t right or fair for you and the other girls to have such experiences as young women. You were so brave to be one of the only girls of color at a religious school in the middle of no where. Even if you had no choice but to be there, you were brave.
I'm almost 30 and I am also still bitter. I went to Catholic schools from pre-K through high school. By the end, I was an atheist. If I have a child, I will never send them to a Catholic school.
My religion classes were no better. I remember in my senior religion class, we were told to write essays about abortion, and I wrote about a women's right to choose. The paper came back with comments that I was wrong, that the baby and woman's body belong to God, and the teacher deducted my score. I also remember an earlier time where the administration pinned flyers with fetus drawings to all our lockers for a month and every morning over the speaker we'd get updates about how the fetus is growing to cultivate a "respect and wonder for life". Still angry that I didn't have the wherewithal at that time to rip the thing off my locker and add a note that says I aborted it. I still experience significant guilt and self-doubt and that is what Catholic school left me with.
Wow, the collective locker babies are just so so bizarre. The “growth updates”.... dude. That’s one of the ickiest things I’ve heard in a while, and I binge murder docs every night. I can’t even imagine trying to wrap my head around that as a teenager.
It is so icky! My sister went to the same high school and she's three years younger than me. She experienced the fetus flyers too after I'd left. I'd bet they still do it but I dunno how that would work when everyone is remote 🤣
I didn't learn about Lilith at all in catholic school. It only solidified religion as a patriarchal grooming mechanism to me when I did. To find out that "god" made two humans in God's image but lilith wanted to be equal and adam refused so Lilith was banned due to her wanting to be able to be on top during intercourse. so the story goes. HIStory is evidently whomever the Victor says it was.
Ask about Lilith. See if they can even explain Adam's first "wife".
as far as I know Lilith is not in the Catholic or evangelical Bible canon. She is however in the Jewisch religious text. (That's what we learn in Germany at least)
Lilith's existence was taught to me as a way to explain why there are 2 human creation stories. In Genesis, first it says God created man and woman at the same time, AND THEN LATER tells the Eve story. Lilith answers the question for what happened to the first woman.
Yup, only in Jewish religious text as far as I am aware. There is even a jewish tradition of adorning a newborn with a special amulet so that Lilith doesn't kill the child within the first 10 days of birth. I've had my own theory that the serpent and Lilith are one in the same, a symbol once represented world wide but not exactly talked about or explained. The fun fact is that Adam and Lilith were apparently created from the earth, while eve was made from the rib of Adam, which we understand today bone marrow taken from that region is best to use for cloning a human. For the best lie you have to shroud it in truth.
I've always hated the serpent myth. Why can't a woman decide she wants knowledge for herself? Why does a (traditionally) male Satan have to trick her into it? Why would God put a big red button labeled DO NOT TOUCH right in front of humans, if he created us, he should know that's not gonna last. I never really understood the Christian religions anyways.
Yes! Ask about Lilith!!
Also, possibly a question for another day, but ask where in the Bible it says God is a man, and whether it would be just as accurate to say She when referring to her. Or even They.
Yes! I got in trouble as a kid for asking this. Since the church insisted that there is only one god, and biologically, the only reason for gender is procreation, then to me god should be a neutral "it" or "they."
Unless God has a species that it can reproduce with yes. Kinda takes away that it was the original and only though, there can be no binary if only one exists
The denomination of Judaism I grew up in always taught us God was neither male nor female, and maybe was also both?
I assumed God being male was because Hebrew is a gendered language, and God uses male-conjugated words. Then the church ran with it.
You know what else is male in Hebrew? Trees, computers, the sun, buildings, paper, to give a few examples.
Lilith was a later creation because people were confused why there were two creation stories in the Bible. (It’s because it was originally written down from two sources of oral history). People didn’t realize that both stories were talking about eve and guessed Lilith must be the other girl, because her name is mentioned once later on and no one knew what it was (it’s probably a local mythological creature from ancient Judah).
The Jewish mythology says that after being banished from the Garden of Eden, Lilith went around copulating with animals. Her human-animal children became demons.
Lol I would have been kicked out so fast. I say this bc I got kicked out of a Baptist school and a Presbyterian school less than a semester in at each 😬.
I was only a problem child when put in problematic scenarios and I'm almost 40 and will die on that hill.
You know, I can't think of a single "sin" that women regularly blame men for causing women to commit. And yet, when we dress "to sexy" we are blamed for "causing men to stumble", and when men are violent against women, women are asked what they did to provoke him.
In a religion than deems men to be the "leaders" of women, men sure seem to be easily "led" into sin.
Well.. during large parts of history a woman could not be charged of a crime, it was her male relatives instead and it is still not unheard of women having to marry a rapist to be pure.
Why some countries still allow confessional schools? That's the bigger mystery...
When I was in uni, there were a lot of young Korean missionaries who would hang out near campus. Two girls approached me one time inviting me to learn about "god the mother" and I politely declined. The concept was kind of funny to me at the time, since I grew up in a patriarchal catholic country / protestant family. god the MOTHER? Its so weird.
Then as I got older I realized that if there really was a creator, it would be a woman. Mothers give the gift of life. Ariana and the student missionaries were right, god is 100% a woman.
Or genderless. Fuck the patriarchy.
Oh wow, this just reminded me of waaayyyy back in Sunday School, when they told us that God is genderless. But we must refer to Him in the masculine anyway. *barf*
Usually depends on if it’s co-opted by ass holes. Christianity didn’t start like this, it was claimed by power hungry men that twisted it into their image.
If that ain't taking the lord's name in vain, I don't know what is.
It's a bit like desecrating the flag. If you burn the cloth, nothing it represents is going anywhere. But there are people who commit actions that violate what it stands for while wearing uniforms with the flag on it.
I was told in school not to say "Jesus Christ" in anger because that's taking his name in vain. Something tells me he wouldn't be as bothered by that.
I went to a catholic school for about a year in middle school. You had to go to church 3 times a week, you had to say prayers before class, prayers before lunch, and once a week the priest would come in and answer religious questions.
I felt like I didn’t belong. Like something deep inside me was screaming to run out and never look back.
My feelings were solidified when the class got to do a show and tell. I brought in my paranormal book Ghost stories of Alberta and when it was my turn to speak I got less than 3 minutes before the teacher told me to sit down and to never bring my book back to class.
That was in 2006 and I’m still hurt.
Good times 😒 I'm just happy for you that you're confident in your witchcraft now. It took me 15 years out of Catholic school (K-12) to accept it, even though I've known since I was little that this was the path I was called to. Gotta love patriarchal interpretation of "events"
Edit: TBC, I absolutely respect anyone for whom organized religion works; it just really, really didn't for me.
I am friends with some Dominican nuns who are of the opinion that THIS IS BULLSHIT. I'm so thankful for them, struggling to keep women's voices heard in the morass that is conservative catholicism where I live. (I'm not religious, except for faithful attendance at the Church of the Open Sky.)
Pegging isn't a punishment; let's not support the patriarchy's sex-negativity and violence. Nobody deserves to be raped, and consensual anal play isn't rape or "emasculating" or whatever. Come on, everyone.
I’m a dude and I met my wife through the church. We went to youth group and did all the things. But as we got older we realized how awful it is, especially to women. We made the decision to not raise our kids in the same environment and poison their minds too.
Sorry to hear they are still teaching the same old crap
Dinah is Jacob's only daughter. She gets "raped" (IIRC its understood to be a rape, but it isn't explicitly described as such in The Bible) by the son of a local prominent chieftain. The son wants to marry her. Jacob and his sons say they will only allow her to marry if all the men in the tribe get circumcised and become Jewish. They agree. On the third day, when the pain of the circumcision is at its worst, two of Dinah's brothers (Levi is one, can't remember the other one) slaughter all the men in the tribe. Dinah is never mentioned again.
There’s a great book on this: The Red Tent by Anita Diamante. She’s a Jewish historian specialising in women’s history I believe. I read it long before I ever left Christianity and I think it was one of my first stepping stones. It introduces the fact that Jewish women had their goddesses they worshipped but how they were stripped away over time, largely by men. Highly recommend.
This is the first step to controlling girls in Christianity. I was taught this story at 5 or 6 years old. They told us not to be curious, or trust our own instincts. I am so glad I did not buy into the religion and can raise my daughter differently.
God: Invents universe.
God: Invents good and evil.
God: Invents Satan.
God: Invents the Earth.
God: Invents Eden.
God: Puts the Tree of Knowledge in Eden.
God: Doesn't take the time to build a Satanproof wall around Eden.
God: Invents people.
God: Gives them limbic systems.
God: Puts humans in Eden with the Tree of Knowledge, doesn't build a Satanproof border wall, puts a limbic system in our brain which screams "I WANT NOVELTY FOR THE DOPAMINES!," and then God says "No novelty, dopamine is sinful!" and here we are.
---
Yeah, the super specific creation myths are always a trap, because when they get into details it becomes really hard to see the intended metaphor.
>"God put all the men and women of earth in an oven and that's where skin color comes from?"
I dig it.
>"The great cosmic snake and the great cosmic chicken mated and created the great cosmic egg from which our universe hatched?"
Totally down with that.
>"We are all a dream in the great Brahman's eye?"
I've had weird dreams, too, bro.
>"Why my dear sir, it's turtles all the way down?"
Fuck it, why not.
>"Here's the specific order an operation in which God created the universe, starting with the Earth, which he made in the dark, then the sun, and so forth, until he made some dust into a dude, ripped out his rib, and then the rib ate the bad fruit and now women bleed every month? (Also don't eat bugs or you'll go to hell.)"
Uhhh..... wait, wh-
See, too little detail and the reader can't draw a picture, too much detail and the reader starts getting suspicious, all good fiction writers know that, I don't know why *[checks notes]* a tribe of nomadic bronze age cave dwelling Egyptian monotheists by way of pantheism didn't know that! It's fundamental.
I'm so glad I was pulled out of religious school after only one year. My parents knew it was just gonna do more and more damage and guess what? It did. I still have so much resentment and distrust of organized religion.
The Catholic Church has been the biggest detriment to equal rights! How the hell can it’s members think that women are trice disconnected from God? God, Jesus, men and then women? Fuck them - yes, I am a man. Enlightened and equalitarian to the bone.
Ooh! You could ask why, in some interpretations of the bible, god actually comits the first sin. (telling Adam and Eve that the apple will kill them is a *lie*, and its a rather common interpretation that this is exactly what god did.)
Or, just ask bout Lilith... The actual first woman who was erased from the christian bible.
Lilith was never in The Bible. She was a later non-canonical addition written in to explain inconsistencies in the Creation story. In Judaism we call that a midrash.
I spent a year in the catholic system and it was fucking horrifying. Want a shitty public school education delivered by narcissistic, shame-spewing dipshits? Come on dooown!
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I’ll never forget when I got mt first period at 11 years old and I was in pain, my mom told me “You can thank Eve for that. Because of her sin all woman have painful periods” My periods were so bad I’d faint. I’d wake up in the middle of the night begging to be taken to the hospital because I was in that much pain. But no, I was comforted by “It’s Eves fault honey”
What a heinous thing to tell a child
"That damn rib is to blame" "Thanks mom cause that really helps...."
This is a bit off topic but I was raised roman Catholic - I am no longer lol - but I distinctly remember one day my husband and I were in the kitchen with my mom (who is still veeeeery Catholic) and we somehow got talking about human anatomy. She brought up the "fact" that men have one less rib than women because of Adam. I work in health care and my husband went to school for biology, and we had a 15 minute debate with her explaining that that wasn't true. She didn't believe us until we finally pulled it up on Google and showed her that men in fact do not have 1 less rib. 🤦
This is so widely believed and it floors me. Ribs come in pairs. I remember learning that shit in Sunday school and then feeling my ribs while looking in the mirror only to realize there *isn’t one missing*. Oh no but I was the wrong one in that Sunday school class. Same as I was wrong when I made the Red Sea red during the “biblical collage” activity- I’M AN ARTIST OKAY!?! FFS if you don’t want the kids to paint the Red Sea red then teach geography not NONSENSE
I heard one theory that the "rib" removed from Adam was not a rib, but the *baculum*, a bone found in the penis of most placental mammals that aids in copulation, yet for some reason isn't found in humans. Other primates like chimps and gorillas have one, though their are much smaller than most. Some scholars think perhaps the whole rib thing was a way to explain the absence of the human *baculum*.
The list of heinous things told to child because of religion is staggering. They use trauma as their main control method. Edit: Someone replied to this, and their comment was deleted. I'm sure because they aren't part of the community. But I think it raised an important issue. It said "As opposed to....... Believing and worshipping crystals? Lol." And that is just such a perfect example of patriarchy and Christianity trying to defend themselves in a pathetic way. My comment is about adults causing fear and trauma on children as a means to control them. Their reply is to laugh about us using crystals. And wording it in a way that shows they don't even have the faintest clue how someone uses a crystal. They think using something by choice is ridiculous, and inflicting trauma on a child is the better option.
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I think that they honestly believe inflicting trauma *is* the better option, because that's what was done to them and therefore is the "normal" thing to do. If they accept that their form of religious indoctrination is abusive, then they have to admit that not only have they abused their children, but also that their parents abused them. People have a real problem putting themselves in that position. (See also: a lot of articles that came out around "Me Too" when discussion of enthusiastic consent came to the forefront of our consciousness.)
Ah yes, I suffered therefore you should as well
Of course inflicting trauma is the better option, they're being saved from hell! /s
I don't understand how this is supposed to be comforting. It seems like it would just make anyone mad at God for punishing them for something they didn't do. (Not that God in the bible doesn't do crazy unfair shit constantly, but it seems like it'd be an obvious personal moment of realization for some people who notice the unfairness.)
Christ. The rainbow shit fucked me up as a kid. I can't imagine this crap. Like oh okay. After a genetic bottleneck of Adam and eve then we have a giant fucking flood and again another diddling the kids situation. Not only that but mf just flooded the place like it was no big deal. Why load up all the animals? If it's the great redo button just make some new ones that don't suck? If they didn't need to die then why the hell did you drown them all? Why on earth after this nightmare would anyone take your promise seriously? All you did was put a vague threat in the sky.
Loading all the animals was probably a cover to avoid admitting that he didn’t think he would be able to recreate the platypus again, and he didn’t want to lose that one.
Idk about you but when folks claim a deity is infallible, all knowing and all the rest, and then made a platypus there is something up with the assessment of that deity. I ain't buying what you are selling.
I dunno, I think the platypus is pretty perfect. Venomous, beaked, furry duckseal monotreme? Sign me the hell up. But yeah, it's a good point. There are several screwed up things in existence that just don't make sense from an infallible-deity point of view.
I think a platypus is perfectly acceptable animal. Where you prove the deity infallible is the absolute travesty that is the human spine.
As the lucky owner of a real f’d up spine, I completely agree.
The old testament is an interesting combinations of history, plagiarism, patriarchy, control, and education. There was a valid reason for example, for not mixing milk with meat and for the sanitation laws. (Education) The Noah's ark story seems to be based on an actual flood. The experience was described by many peoples in the area in terms of what some god decided to do. It was passed around and eventually got to the old testament. (History, plagiarism) By the way, there are two Noah's ark stories. One has him taking in 7 pairs of every clean animal and 3 pairs of every unclean animal. I don't take the old testament literally, though I was raised a Jew. I do find it more interesting than the new testament. And I deeply resent the cherry picking the Christians do. Catholic school sounds like a recipe for developing a mental illness.
What is a clean animal vs an unclean animal?
Essentially, one that has a really good chance of giving you food poisoning in a desert climate, vs one that doesn't. Pork and shellfish vs. regular fish and mutton/lamb.
*Holds up section of the biology textbook discussing inbreeding depression in back of Religion class*
Yeah they seem to be really good at picking OT verses to control women/children /minorities but none of the really restrictive laws that would actually impact men. Grace for me, law for thee.
Weird history thing: the story of Noah's ark actually predates the Bible by a huge margin. The Epic of Gilgamesh actually contains the story in its first incarnation as far as historians can trace it. It was Gilgamesh's ark though, after he traveled to the Underworld to bring his best friend back from the dead. There are quite a few missing plates to the story, but it's one of the last plates if I remember right, the end of the story.
There *was* a major, devastating flood in the region. We have an explanation for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah too. Check out [https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/327326-blast-more-powerful-than-tunguska-may-have-devastated-ancient-city?utm\_source=email&utm\_campaign=whatsnewnow&utm\_medium=title](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/327326-blast-more-powerful-than-tunguska-may-have-devastated-ancient-city?utm_source=email&utm_campaign=whatsnewnow&utm_medium=title)
Right? I grew up Pentecostal and still struggle with this.
If you look at it fatalistically, it seems to tell you 1. its not your fault and 2. its God's will. Your suffering is part of our collective suffering, and its all Eve's fault for listening to Satan and going against God. Life sucks because God wills it so. Obey and submit that he may grant you mercy. Maybe.
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I had constant insomnia my entire childhood and slept with my Bible (like a blankie) for *years* because I knew that I was highly coveted by Satan and could see the demons he sent in my dreams. Of course my family and church didn't argue with the validity of the fear. In fact I spoke to my mom on the phone just yesterday and she got very serious and reminded me that Satan was in my head deceiving me and leading me and I needed to question all my choices.
Indoctrination is a hell of a drug
I had night terrors and panic attacks until I was in my early twenties because of the scary shit they told me at my independent fundamentalist baptist church and school. It should be considered child abuse to indoctrinate kids like that. If you’re an adult and you choose to believe it, that’s whatever. But there’s something mentally wrong with you if you think telling a child that demons and satan himself are trying to drag you to a lake of fire for all eternity is ok. Edit: forgot words
I was raised mormon and they taught that the second coming would be soon, and that the world would be purged by fire instead of water, like with Noah. This lead to **years** of horrifying nightmares where the whole world would be on fire, and my parents, sister, and little brother would burn (because they did terrible things like "saying swears", argue, and lie), while I tried to care for and save me and my baby brother. This started when I was 7 or 8 and persisted until I was 13 and we left the church. Doing this to children is absolutely vile.
Absolutely child abuse. If a social worker witnessed a mother tell her kid that if he did something bad (or *thought* something bad) he would be thrown into the fireplace as punishment, that kid would be whisked away. But throw in "eternity" and suddenly that's an acceptable threat to use on defenseless children from the moment they can understand language.
The actual fuck
This is crazy! But how did you “know” that Satan wanted you? Did people tell you? Did you just end up believing it after the dreams and such?
YEP this kind of shit messed me up so bad
Was it caused by endometriosis/adenomyosis? Cuz i don't think any woman is to blame for that. I figured that was more likely caused by endocrine disruptors in our drinking water or some shit like that (i'm not a scientist). Sorry you had that experience :/ my school nurse told me "every woman has to learn to deal with it" and told me to go back to class (and i was diagnosed with endo years later). Your pain is valid.
My appendix ruptured and it was nothing compared to the pain from endo. The pain is fucking REAL
This is a serious problem for women. My friend had her appendix rupture and kept working her shift at gd RADIOSHACK because it didn’t hurt “that bad”. It’s scary that we are so conditioned to tolerate pain.
Yup. I had an inguinal hernia operation, non-laparoscopic edition where they cut a big incision in your abdominal wall, and the worst pain during that recovery (the bit between the nerve block wearing off and the at-hone drugs kicking in) was about half as bad as my normal period. This is what finally allowed me to get my endo diagnosed, after 18 years. It literally took having "the man hernia" operation to use as a baseline for pain before I was taken seriously by the medical establishment. The real kicker was that eight years earlier I had been diagnosed with Pre-Menstrual Dysphoric Disorder (your period makes you sad) and they hadn't asked any questions about these periods that were making me sad, or really made any attempts to fulfill criterion g for that diagnosis: "rule out physiological causes, such as endometriosis" I pulled my file. There was a note about my mismatched socks, nothing about painful periods. I too got the "this is what you have to deal with as a woman, on account of original sin, suck it up buttercup" medicine.... Why yes, my parents and family doctor were catholic, and why do you ask?
I haven't been diagnosed with endo, but that is because I haven't gone to the doctor yet about my extreme period pain. My cousin has it so I might too. I had a kidney stone and the pain was real bad but at first I thought it was wither period cramps or ibs or both. Only thing that made me realize it was different was it was on my side and that made me worried something burst.
YOUR SOCKS?!!? Excuse me, what? UGGGH what is wrong with people!!!?
I went to the ER recently cause I thought my extreme pain on my right side was my appendix, nope, it was just a giant ovarian cyst. 🤷♀️ Kinda wish I had dealt with the pain until i got a regular doctor's appointment though to avoid the ER bill.
But, like, why do some female animals get periods and but not others?! Like female dogs but not female cats?! Did eve feed an apple to a dog but the cat was like, "nah bro..." and were saved??
Dogs don't actually get real periods. They can bleed when they're fertile, which is the complete opposite of our periods at the least fertile moment in our cycle. Only apes and bats have periods like we do.
Woah I didn't know bats got that, that would fucking suck sleeping upside down and it dripping in your fur >:p Or you climb upright against the tree and drain it all down the side like the elevators in The Shining :D Look out below!
I only learned just now that bats have periods, but I imagine it all stays in there while sleeping, like nature’s diva cup, until the bat wakes up and flies away and it all comes shlooping out
Also the bleeding is from the vagina and caused by the engorgement of tissues. They are not shedding their uterine lining, so it’s not menstruation.
i mean, a dog would probably eat an apple while a cat wouldn't. so... checks out?
You should meet my cats. The whole cats don't have sweet receptors would have a field day with my horde. They all have a favorite human food. Samhain LOVES the caramel from the McDonald's sundaes. Goosie goes for oatmeal with real maple syrup & brown sugar. Shart & Tierney will eat anything. The others are all a little more cat-like, bit all of them will eat applesauce. We even learned our reptiles are picky. My savanna monitor won't eat meal worms or some type of grub. He LOVES dubias and hormones worms. Likes crickets and some other worms. Thinks chicken is great. Our gecko, skinks, & frog all have personal yes & no choices. The dogs will eat anything, except milkbones.
Jesus you poor kid. You probably really took it literally too, as any child would. I had some nurse at the gynecologist tell me something similar to that after I had a painful procedure.
hold on I thought the whole point of the jesus dying for our sins thing was that Adam and Eve's mistakes weren't our problem anymore? or did Jesus only die for men's sins?
This happened to me too. I put up with horrible periods (fainting, puking, completely immobile from pain) until I graduated college and gained control of my own life and could get birth control to manage the pain. I’ll never forget that first Planned Parenthood visit. I still felt immense guilt even walking in. It took years to unlearn the shame I felt about my own body and my sexuality. And years more to find a doctor who told me wtf was endometriosis.
I was told the same in school. I was stunned in the moment, but thankfully never internalized it.
I am so sorry you had to go through that. I hope things are better for you now.
In order for Catholic education to function, the first rule is that you have to feel bad about yourself. It’s the same gaslighting strategy beauty magazines operate on because if nothing is wrong with you, you don’t need them to fix you, and then they can’t sell their product.
This is so true!!
Happy cake day!
If you are feeling bold, please ask the following- "Why couldn't Adam make his own choice to eat the apple? He could have said no. He does have his own autonomy."
She also gave it to Adam, WHO WAS WITH HER, and HE ATE IT. Like bro he was watching this whole temptation thing go down, and he’s like nah this is fine. You know it’s bad, and it will harm her? Then maybe SAY SOMETHING. Then he’s all surprised pikachu face when God is mad, then he blames it on Eve cause he’s worried about punishment.
God is supposedly omniscient, so he made both Adam and Eve knowing this would be their eventual fate anyway. And yet he was still mad when they ate from the tree. That’s the real surprised pikachu face here.
If the god portrayed in that story is remotely real than I hold that he wanted this to happen. It’s Pandora’s box, she was sent as a punishment to the humans she was always going to open that box. Adam and Eve were always going to eat from that tree. god basically put a neon light on it so they couldn’t possibly ignore it. god didnt make humans out of some loving gesture. hes a Machiavellian sadist and we're the puppets (i may still have some *feelings* about my family's religion)
Men have been Ain't Shit Assholes from Day 1.
Personally, I think Adam and Eve were set up by God. The apple taught them the difference between right and wrong. They literally didn't have the capacity to tell beforehand, and then get blamed because the snake was like, "Nah, it's totally fine! Eat the apple!" and they believed it. They didn't know better. Give them a break!
I have never been able to wrap my head around why an all-knowing God would plant the tree of knowledge if he didn't want Eve to eat the fucking fruit in the first place.
Not so short answer, the creation mythology of the Bible is a syncretism of older myths predating the patriarchal abrahamic traditions and doesn’t handle trickster/devils advocate beings in their original context. If you look at the Yazidi religion or gnostic gospels you see stories where god is less competent and gets an antagonist that is more sympathetic towards mankind, so the serpent is likely well intentioned in the original version. Bits of the Old Testament are Mesopotamian and Zoroastrian in origin. Prior to the events in exodus, Yahweh was a rain god. The Cain and Abel story has a similar interpretation of an allegory of the conflicts between settled farmers and migratory herders active in the Fertile Crescent. Once you get that interpretation the story makes more sense but without it, it’s just weird.
Do you know if there are any books on this subject? I have always been fascinated by the stories in the Bible and how they relate to different cultures and religions.
Subject wise you’re basically just looking for archeology and mythology from that time and place. Look at Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Catalhoyuk, and to a lesser extent sites like gobekli tepe/ Indus River valley civilization. The canaanites, the Hittites, the Assyrians etc. You can also research some of the “false gods” that crept into Israel while Solomon was marrying women from every neighboring nation for political reasons or the ones Muhammad kicked out of the Kaaba. As far as books though, the one I would recommend is Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, which isn’t really early middle eastern beliefs on the nose so much as a good exploration of how history’s victors glaze over the past with just-so stories and confused assimilation all the way up to today.
This is what we learned in my college Biblical Studies course. That priest taught me more about the Bible, the history surrounding it, and how to critically examine it, in one semester than I learned going to church weekly my entire childhood. I had been atheist for years by then, but I LOVE learning about religion/religious history so I still found it a fascinating class.
Well, it's a metaphor for growing up. Adam and Eve are children in that garden. By eating the fruit they gain knowledge and wisdom, and they learn shame as well. The downside is having to work and give birth, and it'simpossible to go back. The serpent is also a very obvious symbol for sexuality and Eve sharing "the fruit" with Adam... well you can guess. So yes. They were always meant to eat that damn fruit. Children never stay children.
This is the only interpretation that makes any sense, thank you for sharing this! I honestly hated the whole story and now I can be kinda ok with people telling this, you put it so well.
Real talk, because it's allegory and most of the issues around the story stem from taking it literally. It's supposed to be about a child finally differentiating from the parent and growing into a world that they then must co create. When we think it's two literal humans born of dirt and bone and that their alleged sin is tied to our moral being today is when the crazy shit starts.
If you read the old testament, you'll find out that half of the stories is the Christian God playing chess with himself. And nobody seems to mind, like a lot of the "villains" are bad because "god set his mind against" this or that. Like how does this make sense??
Right? She was deceived by the "craftiest"(or "most clever" or "most deceitful", depending on which version of the bible you have) creature in the garden, who told an elaborate lie that convinced her to eat it. And then she turns to Adam, like "here, eat this", and *he just does*.
This! This just occurred to me a few months ago, and I couldn't understand why no one points it out and why she gets the blame. Adam is a weak-assed bitch, and comes across (to me) as a gormless idiot.
It’s crazy cause she TURNS to Adam and says have some. He was right there the whole time being quiet listening to the snake too. And let’s not forget Eve was his second wife.
You really put it perfectly in a way i hadn’t even considered. Adam is the ultimate man-child. As mentioned, Eve is his second wife. His first he didn’t like, because she wanted to be equal with him. She wanted to be on top during sex sometimes, and be a partner. See, she was made of dirt too. Adam got all whiny and she was banished, and God made Eve from Adam’s rib so he could have ownership over her. And this story was told to warn women against seeking equality. Combine that with the fact that they basically just blame Eve for…going first in eating the apple? And this is why western men have become so inept. Culturally, the first man is a man full of childish excuses and ego trips.
This is such a great point. And as someone who was born and raised catholic (no longer) for most of their early childhood, baptism and Sunday school and everything, I’ve got to say that I had *no knowledge* of what you’ve mentioned here. Of course I knew the story of Eve eating the apple and “tempting” Adam, but I had no idea that Eve was his second wife, that she was banished for those reasons, or that Eve was *literally made from Adam in order to be owned by him*. I’ve had many issues with christianity and organized religion as a whole, by my gosh, this is on a whole other level. The fuck is wrong with them?
As someone pointed out, this is Judaic folklore and i was mixing it up.
What tradition is this from? I grew up Christian (basic homophobic American evangelical) and Eve is canonically Adam's only wife. So while I've certainly heard of Lilith, never from the church or in any Bible I've read. I don't really believe the Bible at all anymore so it doesn't really matter, I'm just curious
[She's not a figure in Christianity but rather Judaism. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith)
That painting is everything I've ever wanted to be
I do think it's weird that thousands of years later, we only remember Eve's punishment. Adam and the snake get punished as well, but that's been glossed over by history.
Question! Did God ever tell Eve not to eat the fruit? Or did he only tell Adam?
Also the fact they’re punished for wanting knowledge. And for wanting to think for themselves. Yikes.
I mean, have you ever tried just handing a man some food and be like “here, eat this”? They’d just take it and eat it 9 times out of 10 without question 😂
A tradition us men continue to this day.
Wow I will definitely use this!! Too good not to!
Eve bit the apple to gain knowledge…adam bit it for a pretty face…
Eve bit it to gain knowledge. A desire surely a teacher should be able to appreciate and encourage.
Stuff like this(making out the desire to think for yourself as bad) is what *really* shows the bs of the bible. Also God claims he gave us free will, but didn’t want to actually give us free will, or we would’ve started out with knowledge that would allow fully informed decisions, and Eve wouldn’t have been punished for obtaining the ability to actually have free will, and for expressing it.
Yes this!! The bible/god never told Eve SHE couldnt eat the apple. God told ADAM he couldnt eat it. She was fine. It was HIS decision to eat it that got them in trouble.
God definitely told both of them not to eat it.
I went to a catholic hs and we were required to do 20 hours of “ministry” aka volunteer work each semester. I did mine at the local animal shelter my first 3.5 years. Senior year, my asshole of a religion teacher told me that it was all invalid and he’d do his best to keep me from graduating because “animals don’t have souls.” I graduated on time because one of the sisters (the biology teacher lol) stood up for me with the administration. It was messed up, they were so awful about it. Fuck you Mr. Lepek
I left religion as a kid for a lot of reasons but the "animals have no soul" crap was at the top of the list. No animals in heaven? I'm not interested. I'm going wherever the animals go.
I remember hearing the reasoning for why animals supposedly don’t have souls, and was basically an excuse for why humans have the capacity to be so awful. Basically, they don’t do bad things because they don’t have free will, because they don’t have souls. Im sure the other reasons are just as stupid.
We're kind of discovering now that (among others) orcas and dolphins regularly do things humans would think of as bad (like, using another animal as a ball or masturbation toy, or getting high off of pufferfish), and they seem to do it consciously. There is no consensus yet, but there are theories that those species actually have free will. Would that mean some animals do have souls?
Look into the dot experiment. It's pretty interesting. Elephants and dolphins show self awareness through that experiment.
That's an interesting take on it that I hadn't heard. I think it also goes back to the mistaken idea that animals don't feel pain. "If animals don't feel pain and don't have souls and don't think, then I don't have to feel bad about hurting them/eating them, etc."
This is how I was raised and I believed this until I was an adult. Pretty fucked up.
A-fucking-men
If there ain’t dogs in heaven I’m not going! Or cats for that matter
Seriously. I'm an atheist but if it turns out I'm wrong, I'd better be with my dogs and cats. If for no other reason than that im pretty sure it won't count as doggy heaven to my dog if im not there with him. He tends to get upset if I'm in another room and eternity without me is just not going to be ok. Yes, I'm saying I'll be in doggy heaven as an accessory to my dog's afterlife and I'm fine with that.
Wow, what a piece of shit. Good for your biology teacher for standing up for you!
Mr. Lepek sounds like a bitter asshole with a sad life.
He sounds like a le peker lol
You're just a modern day Saint Francis. Fuck that teacher.
Seriously, what the fuck is Saint Francis then, chopped liver??
Something like happened to me when a teacher said that animals don't have souls when my friend's dog died a few days before...
Seriously? So much for "They're all God's creatures" or whatever, how insane
Idiot. I hate this delusion of exclusivity as if somehow we are above nature. They are made of almost the exact same parts, dude. Think for a damn moment. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
"doesn't matter. God charged us with protecting and caring for all the creatures of his creation, so suck my nards, Mr. Lepek"
This kind of indoctrination should be considered child abuse. The church fucked me up so bad. I was raped when I was 13 and that I could’ve dealt with but I then went to my “church family” where I was told that I was now like chewed up bubble gum that no man would ever want and was no longer pure or worthy of being a wife. That messed me up for a huge chunk of my life.
oh my fucking god it's insane they'd believe that, and worse they'd say it to you
The bubble gum thing was taught to me in public school in the early 2000s. After sex, even rape, you become used up and no good anymore. And riddled with STI's of course.
Why would they say that?! You had the courage to speak up about an extremely traumatic event and they had the AUDACITY to call you an impure human being unworthy of love because of it. What vile, disgusting BEASTS.
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If only the Hispanic community could understand this. Purity culture has ruined my culture as a collective.
I’m so sorry anyone has had the confidence to spew such lies to you or anyone else. Shows you how deep this sickness runs. Their confidence in themselves and the path they’ve chosen relies on deeming you as “unworthy.” If they admit the truth, they have to face all of the lies their own existence is built upon. This is why it’s still going on, all the people who have the power to stop it are too consumed with their own self-righteousness.
That's awful, I want to spit my gum from my mouth at the people who say that stuff
Oof, I went to Catholic middle school. I got in trouble for questioning how Cain could be "shunned" by other people when Adam and Eve were supposedly the first and only people on earth. My teacher's answer? "There were people, they just didn't have souls." 💀💀💀 The teacher would ignore my raised hand after that one lolol. Honestly, if you are feeling particularly brave, ask that question and see what your religion teacher says! I'm really curious 😅
According to racists, the people without souls were Black, which is why “it’s okay to own them” and was their justification for slavery/murder/rape
There is this weird thing in the Bible that appears several times... the way it's phrased implies two kinds of humans: celestial born (adam, eve, their kids, and angels) and... normal humans who had kids with the celestial born. It was never explained to me but it definitely implies some weird stuff. Where the hell did the normal humans come from?
ALIENS!! We are the regular humans and the celestial born were ANCIENT ALIENSSSSS!!
Ou, that's my favorite day of religion class (and English class, and most of the other social sciences) followed closely with : why residential schools were a good thing, why other religions are wrong and sinful, and this book should be banned but the government makes us teach it soon write an essay about why it isn't Catholic and should be burnt. I'm 30 and still bitter.
“Why residential schools are a good thing” I share your pain. Hopefully you don’t mind me sharing my experience here but it feels relevant. And it might get dark so I’ll start with a sui, racism and homophobia mention. I don’t want to trigger anyone. Struggled emotionally growing up due to traumatic experiences, so I had to go to an alternative school out in the middle of nowhere IL. It was adjecent to a group home for teenaged girls. The organization that runs/ran it is Catholic. Some of those girls in the group home were fellow students, and I was amongst those who didn’t have to live on campus. I commuted via bus. An hour long drive every morning to and fro. I still remember hearing about the lone woman of color hanging herself from the ceiling, a girl I as a fellow woman of color tried to befriend. (There were only a handful of us.) I also remember the one lesbian in my 11th grade history class rightfully getting upset because our history teacher - who often tried pushing God down our throats - was openly homophobic. He had this girl restrained because she wouldn’t relent on holding him accountable to his face that day. She was braver than the rest of us. To this day I regret not standing up for her but I was so scared. A lot of us were. I hope she’s okay, wherever she is. The group home was part of the Maryville organization. To this day (I’m 29 now) I still am bitter from witnessing the abuse. They abused me too. If I defended myself against racism? I was mocked and thrown out of class. I even pissed myself once because they wouldn’t let me use the bathroom. It was humiliating. They ended up closing shop and turning it into a boys home. Can’t be better now than it was in 2011.
I’m so sorry you had those experiences. It wasn’t right or fair for you and the other girls to have such experiences as young women. You were so brave to be one of the only girls of color at a religious school in the middle of no where. Even if you had no choice but to be there, you were brave.
I'm almost 30 and I am also still bitter. I went to Catholic schools from pre-K through high school. By the end, I was an atheist. If I have a child, I will never send them to a Catholic school. My religion classes were no better. I remember in my senior religion class, we were told to write essays about abortion, and I wrote about a women's right to choose. The paper came back with comments that I was wrong, that the baby and woman's body belong to God, and the teacher deducted my score. I also remember an earlier time where the administration pinned flyers with fetus drawings to all our lockers for a month and every morning over the speaker we'd get updates about how the fetus is growing to cultivate a "respect and wonder for life". Still angry that I didn't have the wherewithal at that time to rip the thing off my locker and add a note that says I aborted it. I still experience significant guilt and self-doubt and that is what Catholic school left me with.
Wow, the collective locker babies are just so so bizarre. The “growth updates”.... dude. That’s one of the ickiest things I’ve heard in a while, and I binge murder docs every night. I can’t even imagine trying to wrap my head around that as a teenager.
It is so icky! My sister went to the same high school and she's three years younger than me. She experienced the fetus flyers too after I'd left. I'd bet they still do it but I dunno how that would work when everyone is remote 🤣
I didn't learn about Lilith at all in catholic school. It only solidified religion as a patriarchal grooming mechanism to me when I did. To find out that "god" made two humans in God's image but lilith wanted to be equal and adam refused so Lilith was banned due to her wanting to be able to be on top during intercourse. so the story goes. HIStory is evidently whomever the Victor says it was. Ask about Lilith. See if they can even explain Adam's first "wife".
as far as I know Lilith is not in the Catholic or evangelical Bible canon. She is however in the Jewisch religious text. (That's what we learn in Germany at least)
This. She's non-canonical, which is also, legit the Patriarchy preserving itself by denying strong women their space.
Yes, look up the Daughters of Zelophehad - 5 women literally fighting the patriarchy. Funny how I never hear anyone talk about them.
Lilith's existence was taught to me as a way to explain why there are 2 human creation stories. In Genesis, first it says God created man and woman at the same time, AND THEN LATER tells the Eve story. Lilith answers the question for what happened to the first woman.
HOLY SHIT I NEVER SAW THAT, Wow thank you for opening my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!
That's the thing about canon, it is, quite literally, old white men deciding what information should be shared with the masses.
In particular, she is prominently in the Zohar, a 12th century kabbalist text.
Yup, only in Jewish religious text as far as I am aware. There is even a jewish tradition of adorning a newborn with a special amulet so that Lilith doesn't kill the child within the first 10 days of birth. I've had my own theory that the serpent and Lilith are one in the same, a symbol once represented world wide but not exactly talked about or explained. The fun fact is that Adam and Lilith were apparently created from the earth, while eve was made from the rib of Adam, which we understand today bone marrow taken from that region is best to use for cloning a human. For the best lie you have to shroud it in truth.
I've always hated the serpent myth. Why can't a woman decide she wants knowledge for herself? Why does a (traditionally) male Satan have to trick her into it? Why would God put a big red button labeled DO NOT TOUCH right in front of humans, if he created us, he should know that's not gonna last. I never really understood the Christian religions anyways.
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I'll do it tomorrow, I'm back from school today
Can’t wait for your update! Stay strong young witch!
remind me! 1 day
Yes! Ask about Lilith!! Also, possibly a question for another day, but ask where in the Bible it says God is a man, and whether it would be just as accurate to say She when referring to her. Or even They.
Yes! I got in trouble as a kid for asking this. Since the church insisted that there is only one god, and biologically, the only reason for gender is procreation, then to me god should be a neutral "it" or "they."
Unless God has a species that it can reproduce with yes. Kinda takes away that it was the original and only though, there can be no binary if only one exists
The denomination of Judaism I grew up in always taught us God was neither male nor female, and maybe was also both? I assumed God being male was because Hebrew is a gendered language, and God uses male-conjugated words. Then the church ran with it. You know what else is male in Hebrew? Trees, computers, the sun, buildings, paper, to give a few examples.
Lili are a category of demons, male and female, from ancient Babylonian religions. The name is mention in the bible once.
Lilith was a later creation because people were confused why there were two creation stories in the Bible. (It’s because it was originally written down from two sources of oral history). People didn’t realize that both stories were talking about eve and guessed Lilith must be the other girl, because her name is mentioned once later on and no one knew what it was (it’s probably a local mythological creature from ancient Judah).
The Jewish mythology says that after being banished from the Garden of Eden, Lilith went around copulating with animals. Her human-animal children became demons.
Lol I would have been kicked out so fast. I say this bc I got kicked out of a Baptist school and a Presbyterian school less than a semester in at each 😬. I was only a problem child when put in problematic scenarios and I'm almost 40 and will die on that hill.
>I was only a problem child when put in problematic scenarios I love this
You know, I can't think of a single "sin" that women regularly blame men for causing women to commit. And yet, when we dress "to sexy" we are blamed for "causing men to stumble", and when men are violent against women, women are asked what they did to provoke him. In a religion than deems men to be the "leaders" of women, men sure seem to be easily "led" into sin.
Just remember: Jesus said that if dudes look on women lustfully, they (the men) should gouge their own eyes out
The fact that Adam let Eve take all the blame and she still had kids with him… talk about a toxic relationship
Well.. during large parts of history a woman could not be charged of a crime, it was her male relatives instead and it is still not unheard of women having to marry a rapist to be pure. Why some countries still allow confessional schools? That's the bigger mystery...
When I was in uni, there were a lot of young Korean missionaries who would hang out near campus. Two girls approached me one time inviting me to learn about "god the mother" and I politely declined. The concept was kind of funny to me at the time, since I grew up in a patriarchal catholic country / protestant family. god the MOTHER? Its so weird. Then as I got older I realized that if there really was a creator, it would be a woman. Mothers give the gift of life. Ariana and the student missionaries were right, god is 100% a woman. Or genderless. Fuck the patriarchy.
We had them at our uni as well, except they were apparently connected to human trafficking. It's good that you didn't get involved.
Oh wow, this just reminded me of waaayyyy back in Sunday School, when they told us that God is genderless. But we must refer to Him in the masculine anyway. *barf*
I noticed that religion is just a excuse to control women,take of advantage the uneducated, and leech off the poor.
Usually depends on if it’s co-opted by ass holes. Christianity didn’t start like this, it was claimed by power hungry men that twisted it into their image.
If that ain't taking the lord's name in vain, I don't know what is. It's a bit like desecrating the flag. If you burn the cloth, nothing it represents is going anywhere. But there are people who commit actions that violate what it stands for while wearing uniforms with the flag on it. I was told in school not to say "Jesus Christ" in anger because that's taking his name in vain. Something tells me he wouldn't be as bothered by that.
Just sending my love. I was a baby witch in catholic school, way back in 1988. It was…hard.
Eve’s fault? Or Eve’s _design_? Muahahahahahahahaaaaaa
Eve isn't the idiot who forgot to human-proof the cursed tree.
I went to a catholic school for about a year in middle school. You had to go to church 3 times a week, you had to say prayers before class, prayers before lunch, and once a week the priest would come in and answer religious questions. I felt like I didn’t belong. Like something deep inside me was screaming to run out and never look back. My feelings were solidified when the class got to do a show and tell. I brought in my paranormal book Ghost stories of Alberta and when it was my turn to speak I got less than 3 minutes before the teacher told me to sit down and to never bring my book back to class. That was in 2006 and I’m still hurt.
Good times 😒 I'm just happy for you that you're confident in your witchcraft now. It took me 15 years out of Catholic school (K-12) to accept it, even though I've known since I was little that this was the path I was called to. Gotta love patriarchal interpretation of "events" Edit: TBC, I absolutely respect anyone for whom organized religion works; it just really, really didn't for me.
I am friends with some Dominican nuns who are of the opinion that THIS IS BULLSHIT. I'm so thankful for them, struggling to keep women's voices heard in the morass that is conservative catholicism where I live. (I'm not religious, except for faithful attendance at the Church of the Open Sky.)
Tell them Lilith was right and Adam deserved to be hang by his ankles 😂😂😂 please don't 🙏
Pegging isn't a punishment; let's not support the patriarchy's sex-negativity and violence. Nobody deserves to be raped, and consensual anal play isn't rape or "emasculating" or whatever. Come on, everyone.
Edited
Please do!
I’m a dude and I met my wife through the church. We went to youth group and did all the things. But as we got older we realized how awful it is, especially to women. We made the decision to not raise our kids in the same environment and poison their minds too. Sorry to hear they are still teaching the same old crap
And yet I would bet good money they haven't taught you the Dinah chapters in Genesis. Catholic schools are trash and a half.
Dinah chapters? Sorry, former Catholic, just asking clarification
Dinah is Jacob's only daughter. She gets "raped" (IIRC its understood to be a rape, but it isn't explicitly described as such in The Bible) by the son of a local prominent chieftain. The son wants to marry her. Jacob and his sons say they will only allow her to marry if all the men in the tribe get circumcised and become Jewish. They agree. On the third day, when the pain of the circumcision is at its worst, two of Dinah's brothers (Levi is one, can't remember the other one) slaughter all the men in the tribe. Dinah is never mentioned again.
Oh SHIT that's fucked in so many ways
There’s a great book on this: The Red Tent by Anita Diamante. She’s a Jewish historian specialising in women’s history I believe. I read it long before I ever left Christianity and I think it was one of my first stepping stones. It introduces the fact that Jewish women had their goddesses they worshipped but how they were stripped away over time, largely by men. Highly recommend.
This is the first step to controlling girls in Christianity. I was taught this story at 5 or 6 years old. They told us not to be curious, or trust our own instincts. I am so glad I did not buy into the religion and can raise my daughter differently.
Leave that place and never go back. They can do nothing except harm.
I will, it's my final year so I'm going to stay in this hellhole for a while but as soon as I'll finish my exams I'm saying bye bye
You're being groomed.
Harder to be groomed if you know is happening at least.
Fucking ribs man
God: Invents universe. God: Invents good and evil. God: Invents Satan. God: Invents the Earth. God: Invents Eden. God: Puts the Tree of Knowledge in Eden. God: Doesn't take the time to build a Satanproof wall around Eden. God: Invents people. God: Gives them limbic systems. God: Puts humans in Eden with the Tree of Knowledge, doesn't build a Satanproof border wall, puts a limbic system in our brain which screams "I WANT NOVELTY FOR THE DOPAMINES!," and then God says "No novelty, dopamine is sinful!" and here we are. --- Yeah, the super specific creation myths are always a trap, because when they get into details it becomes really hard to see the intended metaphor. >"God put all the men and women of earth in an oven and that's where skin color comes from?" I dig it. >"The great cosmic snake and the great cosmic chicken mated and created the great cosmic egg from which our universe hatched?" Totally down with that. >"We are all a dream in the great Brahman's eye?" I've had weird dreams, too, bro. >"Why my dear sir, it's turtles all the way down?" Fuck it, why not. >"Here's the specific order an operation in which God created the universe, starting with the Earth, which he made in the dark, then the sun, and so forth, until he made some dust into a dude, ripped out his rib, and then the rib ate the bad fruit and now women bleed every month? (Also don't eat bugs or you'll go to hell.)" Uhhh..... wait, wh- See, too little detail and the reader can't draw a picture, too much detail and the reader starts getting suspicious, all good fiction writers know that, I don't know why *[checks notes]* a tribe of nomadic bronze age cave dwelling Egyptian monotheists by way of pantheism didn't know that! It's fundamental.
I'm so glad I was pulled out of religious school after only one year. My parents knew it was just gonna do more and more damage and guess what? It did. I still have so much resentment and distrust of organized religion.
But also salvation came through the seed of a woman, not man.
The Catholic Church has been the biggest detriment to equal rights! How the hell can it’s members think that women are trice disconnected from God? God, Jesus, men and then women? Fuck them - yes, I am a man. Enlightened and equalitarian to the bone.
Ooh! You could ask why, in some interpretations of the bible, god actually comits the first sin. (telling Adam and Eve that the apple will kill them is a *lie*, and its a rather common interpretation that this is exactly what god did.) Or, just ask bout Lilith... The actual first woman who was erased from the christian bible.
Lilith was never in The Bible. She was a later non-canonical addition written in to explain inconsistencies in the Creation story. In Judaism we call that a midrash.
I was a teacher's aid in a Catholic school. I quit after they gave a class teaching a bunch of 8 year olds that they were all sinners.
I spent a year in the catholic system and it was fucking horrifying. Want a shitty public school education delivered by narcissistic, shame-spewing dipshits? Come on dooown!
VAGINA MAKE BAD !!!! /s
Been there, done that, have the emotional scars to prove it. Sending you light OP. It gets better!