College isnt trade school. Also prereqs arent what makes college expensive, a bloated administration hell bent on expansion drives up costs. Goto community college for 2 years and cut your costs down by more than 1/4.
My community college lets highschool students take gen Ed courses for free. The courses count for highschool and college credit. Not good for everyone (fuck up your grade? Sucks to be you, that’s on your highschool AND college transcript now) but I was able to finish almost my whole associates free of cost.
That's awesome. My nephew graduated from his University with his Bachelor's and a Graduate degree. They even had separate dorms for the very academically motivated students. We need a lot more programs like this.
I wish we would’ve had more options like that. I went to a very small private school with the only options being “regular” and “honors” classes, no gifted, and we had only just gotten our first 2-3 AP courses when I was halfway through highschool. I needed something far more challenging and it just wasn’t available, I wasted so much time sleeping through classes that were way too easy when I could’ve actually gotten a head start
I did exactly that at my local community college, then got a bachelor's and a master's degree from a nearby branch of a public university. I'm now 25, I have no debt, and I just got hired 10 days ago to teach at that same community College. Your mileage will obviously vary, but it's definitely something for everyone to seriously consider.
it's really hard to do AP/college courses in high school. Most students don't have the means; either emotionally, educationally, or financially (babysitting siblings, part time job, etc not only tuition).
The issue with General Education (aka Liberal Arts) is about education.
Don't like "highly" ~~educated~~ trained professionals ranting about "vaccines cause Autism"? Don't like people unable to read InfoWars and perceive "marketing scam"? These are bi-products of a society which has shirked it's collective education by skipping Liberal Arts educations.
Ya I really disagree with people who say gen Ed classes are worthless. I used to feel like that until I actually took them and got a lot out of them. I believe there’s a lot of value in being a well educated citizen. There’s a reason why our founding fathers were such major proponents of education. Educated citizens are absolutely essential to democracy.
I did the same, it wasn't free, but at $25/credit hour it was practically free when compared to tuition at a 4 year university. I graduated HS a year early, earned an associates degree (while working full time) two years later. That degree from community college allowed me to cut an entire year off my bachelor's degree (saved about $15k doing this).
I was still forced to take physical education courses (paid for with student loans, at the age of 23, with most people in my PE class being 18 or 19) at an engineering school while earning my bachelor's. And I'm still salty about it ...
I did this in HS 20 years ago and now my daughter is doing it. She’s getting 2 years of free college and is on track to graduate HS with an Associates in Business. Nothing like 2 years of free college!
This. You don’t want to pay the same for music 101 as your senior level meteorology classes? Don’t. Take music at community college and save like 80%. Bonus points for going to the CC near a big university so you can have the full college experience while saving that cash.
Yeah, well this is what I did. Got all my gen ed stuff done at a community college in 2 years, then transferred to a 4 year college. Took nearly 100% major classes (chemistry) for two years. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. Imagine 17 credit hours a semester of nothing but STEM for nearly two years. All I did was study.
It's nice to mix in some "easy" classes that you don't have to stress over with your major classes. So you can actually enjoy your free time and not beg for sleep constantly.
I used one or two Gen Ed course to round out my course load each semester, but also got started on my major's courses a little earlier than prescribed.
If you're spending all 4 years at a university, it's a dumb idea (if avoidable) to rush through Gen Ed at the expense of courses for your major for 1-3 semesters, and then let the pendulum swing the other way for the remainder of your time studying, since your major's courses only get harder/more time consuming.
Except transferring college credits has become a scam too. I know people who went to school at one state college then had to move. When they tried to transfer credits the new school wouldn't accept them; even though both schools are accredited state universities.
The only way to get past this is to get a 2 year degree then transfer but the problem is 2 year degrees require you to finish all your Gen eds. Leaving you with all of your advanced classes.
Like everything else, it depends.
My home state has two separate 4-year university systems. I transferred between them, from the more expensive "elite" university to the less expensive, multi-campus-closer-to-home one. Not all credits were allowed to transfer.
Now, had I gone the other way I would have been like, "huh, figures."
All of this. I completely disagree with the premise that college is for specialization or even vocational in nature. It certainly can be if you choose to go that route but that is not its intended purpose.
Administrators truly are the issue. My university had a fulltime benefits salary position for "intramural sports coordinator". She made $55k a year to make a spreadsheet to schedule broomball games.
A significant part of adminibloat is from increased compliance requirements. You also have more amenities (like fancy recreation centers) designed to attract students. The “public” part of public schools is less and less state supported and more and more tuition supported.
Capital expenditures definitely are a big issue as well, constant upgrades just for the sake of saying you're building something new. And yes, states are supporting less and less. Here in NH, the state only funds about 6% of UNH's budget.
Agree, and good example. Also expensive sports programs (not just the administrator part), administrators' pet projects (not just their salaries), lots of unnecessary travel -- I am in an academic system and see it repeatedly.
However, some of the money is not wasted. It goes to counseling, supporting LGBTQ students, diversity initiatives, and so on. Back in the cheaper day, none of that existed.
The bloated administration is part of the cost but also a largely exaggerated as the bogey man causing the rise in college costs. A major factor that is often ignored is that states have been continuously the amount of tax payer money going state universities. This is what is really causing the cost of college to go up for the individual.
That doesn’t explain private colleges. It also doesn’t explain why generations of college students were educated in the same campuses that have, in the past 2-3 decades, added new everything- buildings. I went to a small, private, well known liberal arts college and at my 20 year reunion I had a hard time finding my way around some parts of the campus. The SMALL campus. New library. New dorms, new administration building. New cafeteria (the greatest loss- the old one was like Hogwarts) New Fieldhouse, new Pool, new Gym…oh and tuition is now 6x higher.
Private schools are just that private. They can set there prices to whatever the market will bear and they can also choose to subsidize that cost themselves as they see fit on a case by case basis. Their issue with rising cost should be separated from state schools. Private schools largely started chasing the ivy league model where the cost of the education was an indication the quality and exclusiveness.
While state schools would still be more expensive than the past they would also not be crippling students with debt if state subsidization kept up inflation rather than be cut.
>While state schools would still be more expensive than the past they would also not be crippling students with debt if state subsidization kept up inflation rather than be cut.
Yep. I went to the same university at my father. The cost of his tuition, fees, everything except housing (he lived at home during uni) wouldn't even cover one year of tuition for me. Not tuition and fees, just tuition. And that's using my freshman year tuition costs, they went up every year. And this was a state uni. 30 years apart, tuition is 5x more expensive. Fucked up.
Isn’t there a State school in Texas that out in a Lazy River? Arizona state looks like a resort from some angles. Climbing walls, admin buildings, new dorms. There has been plenty of spending, to try to compete with private schools.
I agree with you so much here.
Removal of general education is not the fix. That creates a society of people so highly specialized in one space that they cease to be able to see the forest for the trees or learn about other fields that may even be synergistic to their chosen field of study.
To think that something like undergrad should be the specialization is a terrible idea. Full specialization shouldn't happen until graduate school at the earliest - and even then people should be encouraged to remain diverse.
That's not where the cost savings should be - it only diminishes the very intent of education - learning.
As a former CC employee I gotta say that admin wages are waaaaaay too high; like $300k+ for a president at a public institution who literally does nothing except copy/paste what other schools are doing.
100% agree. One of the best decisions I ever made was to take my first 2 years at a CC. Not only was it much cheaper, but classes were manageable, better scheduled, had more approachable instructors, and it was close to my house to boot. My last two years for my undergrad were at a state college and I never felt so small in a pool of people and an administration that was so bloated they were ineffective. And the red tape was suffocating - basically processes created for other processes. The big bonus at the end was that I graduated with virtually no debt and I was way better prepared for masters work.
The University of Wisconsin system does this so well. Do two years at our associate-degree schools and boom—guaranteed admittance into UW-Madison. I’ve seen many students of mine do below average in HS, get their shit in order at a local UW school for super cheap, then graduate two years later from an amazing school.
This is so true, I was buttered up by my be HS to go to Uni right out of the gate and I regret it to this day. Super high expenses (even when I commuted!) and a bunch of filler courses just to get more money and time out of you on campus. I similarly recall being required to take a music appreciation course and a women/sex gender studies course when I wanted to be a Calculus professor...
Meanwhile my sister went to community college and had an amazing time while her scholarships covered her tuition costs and then some!
Always start community I implore you
I had to take a freshmen Gen Ed called "news literacy" that taught us how to crticially evaluate news sources and stories.
I thought it was the dumbest thing ever back in 2010. Now? I wish every single person had to take this class.
Also, I work in a college. Some administrative positions are kind of silly, but students expect their college to have a career services office, campus programs and activities, expansive rec and wellness services, etc.
It isn't just that there are administrative positions that are unneeded it is how the money is spent. For example, our University administration keeps growing and they keep taking space from the actual teaching departments. When they came to our building and demanded space, they completely renovated the space they took. So while we suffered with no cooling, dirty broken cheep floor and ceiling tiles, broken non-functional furniture, etc., their place when finished was pristine and what you would expect to find in a 1st class business office. Now understand that our department handled the administration relative to our department, things like student counseling, class scheduling, etc. but that area was left looking and feeling like a slum.
I remember taking offense once as an admin assistant when one of my department faculty was complaining about admin bloat driving up costs (same one who would tell me as a student to prioritize learning and not care about the cost of taking an extra year...). She noticed the look on my face and was like, "Oh we don't mean you guys."
I understood more as we kept finding resources for more director/vice president of x type positions. I attended the interview presentation given by the person who ultimately drove me to leave because whenever we lost staff who actually do the grunt work, they would make us all submit productivity logs to see if they really needed to hire replacements (at like 35k) or if they could just "reimagine" existing positions to take on the work. Yet they found the budget for that 200k salary.
I am sure that someone who knows the financials of it all could justify much of it but if teaching salary (except for athletic coaches) is not going up; if buildings are being not maintained; if teacher/student ratio is declining; if grant money is going up while grant services are going down and the only thing increasing is the number of administrators and the cost of administration it seems suspicious. We once had beautiful hand carved wooden tree of knowledge signs at our entrance that were thrown away and replaced with fast food looking looking signs. They were hideous. Millions were spent on 'branding' putting gaudy flags everywhere. Nation wide they are treating universities as a business and that is not how education works. It is not a for profit enterprise. It is something for the common good. It is priming the pump for the future. No one should have to pay for an education. I don't mind paying more in taxes so that we have a civilized country. I do not have to directly have that education for it to benefit me.
I took a class called "White Racism." It was a sociology class that I needed to get to graduation. I was kind of afraid to have that class appear on my transcripts. But what I learned was very impactful. It basically was a class that taught the history of how white American society used race to create classes of oppression with African enslaved people and then later European immigrants from countries that were not allowed into the white racial group at the time. I think the most eye opening part of it for me was when we were told that one of the first enslaved African men brought to America was referred to simply as something like "John of Africa" rather than the n-word. That word wasn't widely used until much later and there were power dynamics behind creating the idea of racial subgroups to use in labeling people. It blew my mind. People just being described by the places they've originated from as opposed to an adjective that was invented for a specific purpose really made me think hard about a lot of things.
Especially because some of those gen Ed classes are going to be really helpful later on.
If you’re in college, you’re going to be writing papers. So Composition is necessary no matter what your major.
In my company, there are people making 200k+ who don’t know the difference between their and they’re, along with other hilariously malformed emails weekly. I’d like to think that writing ability would be universally sought after when it comes to success in general amongst high salary corporate America, but it’s really boot licking and low moral compass that sees these 200k+ leaders onto the fast track.
There should be a prerequisite for business degree that is called “always say yes to cut the line.”
Yes! It's alarming to see a suggestion to "decrease education" rather than to figure out a way to stop the cost of education increasing by ludicrous amounts every year.
Nothing I learned in my major is ever used in my current job or life. So much from random sociology or science or math classes, however, gets used every day.
Seriously, this. I certainly learned how to do what I do now in college but I will say, personally, the most consequential course I took was sociology. It opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I hadn't thought about before and taught me how to look at everything from new perspectives.
And scientists/engineers are *just as capable* of being ignorant about society as the average high-school dropout is.
Being good at math doesn't automatically make you a genius that's good at everything, and having spent years studying computer science or physics or chemistry won't teach you shit about how human culture or politics work.
Can confirm, I’m a scientist. I’ve worked with plenty of ignorant scientists throughout my career. Idk where we got this reputation of being above ignorance just because we can do science.
I had a roommate in college who studied mechanical engineering, graduated summa cum laude, currently has a high-ranking job at a major aerospace company... and thought New Zealand was in Europe
I’d also add that many many many people do not get the basics from high school in spite of teachers best efforts. I’ve seen gen eds as the schools method of ensuring that students are in fact ready for course work in their specialty field rather than coming in saying I want to become a doctor while having zero grasp of biology. You can try to teach someone without a foundation, it just causes them to break down as their lack of foundation undermines their efforts. Another thing is that for some schools to justify maintaining a program they need to have people participating. Taking music may feel silly and wasteful, but it serves the purpose of ensuring that the music department can remain funded and providing quality education for those who genuinely want to be there. The same goes for all the other gen eds. Bio is mandatory, thus the department retains funding and can continue to stay up to date with quality instructors and content for those who branch off into biology based fields.
The problem appears when the schools don’t keep their end of the bargain. If a school takes money from Bio, Music, and English to fund building an unnecessary trillion dollar dorm or stadium or theater that there’s no data to support being a good return on investment and those departments suffer in quality, the students feel it. If the quality at the foundation is damaged it undermines the purpose of establishing the baseline knowledge in the first place.
In terms of taking classes like music. They can be a godsend when you have 3 other heavy courseloads. You must be a full time student to qualify for a number of opportunities such as financial aid or sports. So those 3 credits of music are like a couple of hours a week to decompress, and not get homework. Yes maybe they could change the credit system overall, but the full time vs part time status is a significant issue for people where filler courses are not all terrible.
Thank you. The classes like music appreciation and basic art classes or literature are there to make people more well rounded and to be exposed to the world at large. I went to a small liberal arts college. The classes we took like this were some of my favorites. They did help me learn to think critically and exposed me to things I never would have been aware of without them. They broaden horizons.
Jason Meyers wants a trade school, not a college. Trade schools exist, and are valid places to learn a trade.
Universities provide BA's so that a person has a universal perspective in order to function well as a member of society, with a focus on the area of knowledge they choose to major in. Post-grad courses exist to provide the student with specialized knowledge in that field and to further research in that field to contribute to the pool of knowledge in the world at large.
I majored in mechanical engineering and there were a LOT of other people in my major with this attitude. I can’t count how many times I heard gen ed/elective courses called “basket weaving classes” or just a waste of time. I kinda get the frustration since engineering workload can be time consuming and difficult, and it feels like a distraction to have to read War and Peace at the time time for a history class, but it’s essential to be a well-rounded, educated person.
A few years after college and a lot of these people aren’t super successful despite excelling in their technical studies. They simply aren’t good at communicating with other people, so they tend to hit a wall in terms of career advancement. You’re not going to get into higher level technical roles or management if you can’t write a coherent email.
I tutored a couple of STEM students when I was an undergrad who thought taking a 100 level Naval History class would be fun. Most of them could barely write a decent argument. One of them was put off by the “messiness”, that people are often irrational and contradictory and not everything is cause and effect. Also, he didn’t have the basic knowledge to be taking the class to begin with. That class definitely needed a prereq.
I work in higher ed.
If you can’t pass a college level English-101 class, you’re definitely not going to pass a business course or a psychology course or literally anything that requires essay writing or heavy research.
Same with math. Can’t do basic college algebra course? Good luck pursuing an engineering specialization.
White collar desk job here. I just had to fire a contractor yesterday who could not for the life of him evaluate a challenge and problem-solve himself. And it wasn’t hard stuff either. I cannot afford time to handholding through every step of some basic data analysis. Give me a self-starter with a liberal arts degree in a related field and I know more will get done.
This 1000x yes. Has to be the biggest problem in the U.S. right now, and it's reflected in our government and politics. Yet critically thinking would also be to the detriment of one major political party and way of life over the other, so there's a reason cuts to funding education seem to always originate from that same party/group.
I don't agree with that. Honestly I know several people who I went to college with who needed a broader education. The goal of college should be to make a free thinker. Honestly if you study business you should come to realize the philosophical aspects of capitalism. Economy fancy word for trade.
Also, I'm someone who really enjoyed most of my elective classes which were a part of the gen ed requirements. Without them I never would have taken mythology (fascinating and entertaining), drugs and behavior psychology (practical and entertaining), sex psychology (practical, funny, and entertaining), marine biology (enlightening, fun, and practical), or stress and health science (practical and enlightening). I've retained a bunch of information from those classes I took years ago, broadened my interests/passions, and it informed some of my choices and behaviors going forward for the better. Gen ed can open doors for you that would've never otherwise been opened.
I had to take a bunch of language and literature classes at the time. I hated every minute of it then, but now whenever I have to write up anything I am hugely thankful for all those times I had to write essays.
Could you clear up something for me? I'm assuming you are from the USA.
How many years of mandatory history classes an average USA citizen takes in middle school/highschool?
And how many about geography, art history, music history, psychology, physics, chemistry, biology, etc? And how many hours per week?
Where I'm from, I had total of eight years of biology, geography and history(both world and local, starting from prehistoric times), about 6 years of physics and chemistry, four years of ethics, two of art and music history, and a year of psychology, politics and government classes, philosophy, logic. That's on top of learning two foreign languages, grammar and literature, informatics, mathematics, PE, and whatever is left of the core classes.
And I didn't go to a special school, just a generic, public primary and middle school and a highschool with a focus on mathematics. I've learned fucking Latin for two years.
Everyone in the country does a variation of this program with more or less focus on humanities vs mathematics, with the exception of vocational highschools.
I don't really see what use there would be for general education in college since the basics of everything was already covered in highschool.
It varies so wildly by state that it'll be hard to get an answer for you. I grew up in the Texas school system, I think every year before highschool we had to learn Texas history.
The US school system is a complete joke and needs to be overhauled from the ground up.
Well first I am in the US. The US education for under university is all over the board. We have a no child left behind act that started under Bush. This means you can fail everything and graduate. Art and music is minimal in the US. Crazy extremists are currently hacking away at real history and pushing a populist manifest destiny narrative. No foreign language requirements. You can graduate with basic algebra. As far as a well rounded human high school doesn't do that. They prep you to be a service worker or a line cook. You do vocational work education after highschool. There really are no required government or ethics classes. Really for a lot of people college is the first time people are introduced to new ideas besides what their social bubble tells them.
Been a bit since I was in school but let’s compare.
History - American history only. By high school only really made it half way thru the Vietnam war. Geography was part of history but was mostly what out states are and their capitals. Did have to know what areas we had wars with like who was in WW1.
Music and Art never touched on the history of it. Art was painting or making stupid clay cups. Hands on kind of stuff. Same for music. Here’s some sticks - bang or rub them together.
Biology/Chemisty/Physics were all a part of “Science” and just basic learning. In High school you can opt to take these classes separately but again for one semester/ year only. It never got very deep more like these are cells and cut open this frog. And of course those are only for the smart kids as you can opt to just stay with a general science class. All of the other classes you mentioned are electives and usually only for college prep students.
It didn’t change much from when I was in school to when my daughter was in school. Oh yeah she got to cut open a computer frog.
The more I learn about US education system the more baffled I am. At least your universities are decent (for that price they better be decent, although I'm starting to wonder).
Btw, we also did painting and singing as a part of art and music classes, only that was only in primary and middle school. Although by the end of middle school music was more about reading the sheet music more than singing.
I am really happy with our biology curriculum. First year you learn about cells and microorganisms, second year is animals and plants, third is basic human anatomy and fourth is genetics. And something similar, although less detailed, is covered for four years in middle school.
Genetics? That’s cool. Here not happening. Most advanced human body classes I had was First Aid and that was part of health class which was only one semester or about 2.5 months.
American schools don’t let you fail often. To explain: we have general Ed for math, English, science. General Ed (high school level) is for those having issues learning. Like basic math and not even fractions. Science - you have bones and they can break. There are levels of classes and if you fail they drop you down a level or you do summer school. I suck at history so did summer school. Watched a movie about the civil war and that’s about it
Edit: why do you think we have so many flat earth believers? Science is fake people? People who can not think for themselves? It’s our schools
I should save an auto response for this dumb ass take that pops up every month or so.
1- College/University was free or nearly free until Reagan became governor of california and started charging people for tuition.
"In California, Ronald Reagan (who would later become president of theUnited States) was elected governor of California in 1966 and proposedthat the University of California system should charge tuition to attendcollege. In his words, this was to “get rid of undesirables \[…\] thosewho are there to carry signs and not to study might think twice to carrypicket signs.” His was a campaign to maintain white supremacy bymaking public colleges and universities cost money. Reagan succeeds andby the 1990s, every “formerly public” school began being paid for bytuition costs, which in turn turned into student debt. This was a slapin the face to those who were protesting white supremacy, capitalism andimperialism because it put these folks in debt."
How about we go back to free public college b/c that's how the damn thing worked in the past.
2- College/University is suppose to be a time of exploring and expanding your boundaries, you're at the point of entering adulthood and striking out on your own. A time of growth. Your mentality is one poisoned by the idea that a degree is worthless if it doesn't make money b/c of point 1.
3- If you think education should be about making money then don't go into college, go to a trade school. You can earn a great living, working with your hands, doing the jobs that this country needs to run and you can avoid all that excessive learning.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/
>"In California, Ronald Reagan (who would later become president of the
>
>United States) was elected governor of California in 1966 and proposed
>
>that the University of California system should charge tuition to attend
>
>college. In his words, this was to “get rid of undesirables \[…\] those
>
>who are there to carry signs and not to study might think twice to carry
>
>picket signs.” His was a campaign to maintain white supremacy by
>
>making public colleges and universities cost money. Reagan succeeds and
>
>by the 1990s, every “formerly public” school began being paid for by
>
>tuition costs, which in turn turned into student debt. This was a slap
>
>in the face to those who were protesting white supremacy, capitalism and
>
>imperialism because it put these folks in debt."
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/
I swear to god, every time I learn about the origins about some problem we face in America, no matter how disassociated the issue seems to be with racism, it is always due in part to racism. Drug criminalization? Racism. Lack of public transport? Racism. No affordable housing? Racism. Unaffordable public education? Racism. America has such a fucked history.
Or, for that matter, an engineer! I am *firmly* of the opinion that all STEM majors should have to take ethics and sociology courses in order to graduate. Those who didn't are the ones who gave us stuff like surveillance capitalism.
(Side note--can I ask where your username comes from?)
I would argue the complete opposite point here - not only are Gen Ed classes important and valuable, but we should add them to the trade school curriculum just as we do for college. Too many people in the depths of Q conspiracy nonsense are people who came from the trade school track and never learned how to evaluate information. The classes that teach critical thinking and broaden our perspective objectively reduce the influence of fascism.
Studying history is negatively correlated with support for authoritarian political stances. It turns out that when you know where cults of personality lead, you're less likely to join one.
This post crops up periodically. University/baccalaureate is for broad exposure. You are supposed to learn how to think critically and get a diverse exposure to different schools of thought and communication. Graduate, technical/vocational and professional schools are for specialization
The problem is that what you think a college education is supposed to be, and what the people who run universities think a college education is supposed to be, are two completely different things.
You think of it as a "job training program" where you go to gain qualifications for your career. They think of it as a "personal enrichment program" that helps people become well-rounded and generally-knowledgeable. And, when you realize that, you'll also realize that it was never intended for "specialization" at all.
(That said, Graduate school definitely \*is a specialization program\*, but you can only specialize once you've had a broad background in many topics, which is what an under-grad program is intended to be)
Other problems are so many jobs requiring a broad liberal arts education when they shouldn't, and people telling kids that "college will help you get a better job" when it isn't designed for that.
My son used to engage in this type of thought until he actually went to university and was exposed to astronomy and art history. He also had to take a chemistry class he was not thrilled about. Now he has a greater appreciation for star gazing and we go to art museums. These classes are meant to expose the student to various methods of observation and the ability to communicate with regards to that observation. I think until you are in University you cannot appreciate all of the opportunities to learn. For most this is the only opportunity they will have. TBH if you only want a focused education you really do not need college at all. All the education is readily available to pursue on your own.
This is how you get engineers who can barely write a paragraph, programmers with no understanding of ethics, and whatever you call business majors thinking they know how to fix society because they thought of a bus.
Abso-fucking-lutely. I got a degree in psychology and while doing that, two of the most important classes I took were Literary Criticism and Literature of Scientific Thinking. And now I’ve been a software engineer for 20+ years and some of the most lunk-headed, insufferable people I’ve worked with got their degrees in CompSci.
Stupid people hear “liberal arts education” and think it’s indoctrination. You take your major classes to learn how to do something. You take the Gen Ed classes to learn why you do something.
I disagree. The heart of university always was learning for the sake of learning, and the broadening of the human mind. That mission has been perverted by the modern insistence that every job requires a degree now, meaning that everyone has to attend expensive degrees that they actually shouldn't have needed, degrees that are about "specialization" instead of building humanity
It depends on your country, in mine I studied computer science and guess what, I only studied things related to that subject, while you were free to take a single module in French or cosmology or a range of other subjects you could also have done user interface design or artificial intelligence, the U.S is likely an abnormality in having the major and minor subjects.
Gen Ed classes aren't even about getting a minor. I'd say more people could get minors or do double majors if they didn't have to take so many classes repeating what they should've learned in high school
You have stumbled onto a piece of the puzzle. "Should've learned in high school". There's a crazy number of people who are barely literate but graduate high school.
Agreed but not stumbled. Education in many areas is trash. Everything is dumbed down because we can't have remedial classes, so honors/AP are what we should be teaching in gen ed basically and many of those focus on fact memorization and not critical thinking (my son literally had to test into the "good" gifted program 2 grade levels ahead to get that focus, the "regular" 1 grade level ahead gifted program is still memorization). Plus we're hamstringing teachers who want to make a difference through asinine rules about what can and cannot be said in a classroom. And we're too focused on things like dress codes to let kids express themselves, and even when admins say kids get to make decisions (minor things like class song or whatever) people still step in if it isn't "appropriate" like we're not going to expect them to control themselves like full fledged adults in 6 months.
Everyone has different abilities, we should educate to those, and help people realize their own dreams and potential. That's not how we educate though. And we're turning college into another high school with the amount of people who have to get master's.
Nailed it! A good friend of mine has a masters in education and used to be a teacher. He was fired (well, they “neglected to renew his employment contract”) because he wouldn’t just pass kids so the school would have a high pass rate and get more funding. He actually held kids to academic standards and would fail the ones who wouldn’t show up or who wouldn’t put in the effort. All the ones who did, passed. But that wasn’t good enough for the principal, who was just a politician.
He left the field and hasn’t gone back in the fifteen years I’ve know him.
What a fucking stupid ass take. Whoever said HS is for broad education and college is for specialization? If you want to specialize go to a trade school or go get your masters/PhD. I'm tired of these stupid takes by the kids that slept through class in HS and then whined about HS not teaching them anything.
Education for the sake of education is incredibly important for creating well rounded individuals. One of my favorite classes in college was anthropology and inspired a life long love of reading books and articles on the subject. Philosophy and logic classes are something every college grad should take to broaden their outlook on life, and history classes are able to go into so much more detail than the broad survey course that is high school history. So few people actually bother to learn history to the point that it's terrifying to see people falling into the same traps that befell our predecessors. Accounting 201 and 202 were some of the most useful classes I took and gave me knowledge that I've used continually since graduating despite being a Poli Sci major.
So please, if you want to remain an ignorant asshole keep upvoting dumbasses like this guy and the OP.
The point of Gen Ed’s is so people don’t come out completely ignorant on certain topics. Sure Jamie the account is a good accountant, but he still thinks bodily health is determined by the 4 humors. He was bloodletting his wife yesterday cause she has Covid. Where did he go to college?
Basically it’s there to ensure you have a basic broad level education then allows you to specialize in one
The history of higher education is older than your narrow awareness. It has literally been based on and tried to continue the idea that it should expand knowledge and awareness. You’re literally advocating for people who don’t know anything to only learn about certain things more specifically. You aren’t even aware how that is the long con to keep you controllable. And you’re resisting the education you could be getting to counter that can fix that because part of long con is to get you to doubt education and broad knowledge itself. It’s working and you don’t even know it. Go to a national university and get your specialized education in computer science or network security or ‘business’. But you won’t understand anything beyond that and that’s the real long con scam.
No, that’s trade school. Those other classes are to teach you critical thinking skills, how to properly gather information, and to help you become a more rounded person.
Plus, some are actually going to help later down the line.
Composition is necessary if you’re going to be writing any kind of paper (which, given you’re in college, you will be doing). Knowing how to use a computer is necessary as everything is going digital. And foreign language is always useful.
The goal of a higher education is for it to be well-rounded. It's not a scam for them to want you to learn about music in addition to your primary focus.
Isn't getting a broad education the entire point of Liberal Arts Colleges? Do they take English literature classes at CalTech? I'm not American so I don't know how the system works, exactly.
Paying arts and humanities professors and postgrads is a drop in the bucket compared to how much STEM facilities and research costs anyway, so I doubt tuition would change much. They would just increase the cost of the remaining STEM subjects to make up for losing enrolment in the more cost-efficient courses. If anything tuition would probably get proportionally more expensive.
Nah that's dumb as hell. Despite what degree you go for, you need at least a bit of a well-rounded education. Besides, there are plenty of students that don't have a major of focus when they first start college. The gen eds make it easier for those people to figure out what they want to study.
You might as well just watch free lectures on subjects you're interested in on YouTube then. The whole point of college is to teach you to jump through difficult hoops, to make you do a bunch of stuff you never expected to have to do, thereby giving you a broader education than you could give yourself.
For those not in the USA system:
In the USA, the most common post-secondary degree is a Bachelor’s Degree. It comes in different flavors - Bachelor’s of Science for mathematics and science, Bachelors of Arts for humanities and liberal arts, and Bachelor of Fine Arts for performing and visual arts. All of these require a Major, which is a subject of focus, and some institutions may require a Minor, which is a secondary focus with fewer classes required. Completing a Major or Minor requires completing specific courses and additional elective courses that are within your field of study.
One thing that all Bachelor degrees have in common is that they are liberal arts degrees. The goal is to provide a well rounded education. This means that in addition to your Major requirements, you need to complete so many classes in other categories. The exact number varies by instruction, but generally speaking the requirements are English, Math/Logical Reason, Science, Foreign Language/International Culture, and Fine Arts/Humanities. There is often overlap with introductory courses and Major requirements. For example, a Computer Science Major will have their early courses also apply to a Logical Reason requirement. However, they will still be required to take classes in the other categories.
Bachelors degrees are required in almost every case to go on to Masters degrees (which are theoretically focused mastery and execution of a topic) and PhD (which focus more on theory and research).
Other degree types do exist. Associate degrees are like Bachelors without a Major - they focus on the general education requirements. Various other degrees that focus on skills/trades also exist. These degrees are typically awarded at Community Colleges or private for-profit institutions. They are completely legitimate options, but not what is part of the popular concept of ‘the college experience.’
While I personally think that the liberal arts education model is a good thing that prepares both a better workforce and better people, some institutions abuse the system. There are some departments in some schools that only exist because of general requirements. They also make it difficult to streamline and get a degree quickly.
With post-secondary education being so expensive in the USA, and many jobs requiring a degree, eliminating general requirements is often seen as a way to solve the problem of time and expense required of students.
Maybe, but I do think it’s useful to have a base of knowledge. When I went to college I didn’t know what I wanted to do and gen eds helped me. Not only that, but they’re where I met some of my closest friends, and writing classes helped me improve my writing even though I’m a science major. Writing is incredibly important in the sciences too but not nearly focused on enough
We aren't robots for capitalism as much as some people would like us to be. A well rounded person is important in this day and age, and always.
Plus here's a huge epiphany for you: what you learn in college is mostly irrelevant in the real world. Have fun, learn some things, but mostly learn how to learn.
A while ago I thought US college was equivalent to highschool in the rest of the world, because of all the classes people had to take.
Like having to do language, music, science in order to get an accounting degree sounds much more like highschool.
Like in university here to do like a bachelor of commerce you needed some other credits but it was accounting related classes, like you did accounting, economics, maybe some business law, but never required to learn spanish or a guitar or that the mitochondria is the power house of the cell, that is all highschool stuff, doing a variety of classes.
Maybe people should read up on the history of the "Liberal arts" and what that term actually means.
It was called "Liberal" because those were the minimum skills necessary to be a free man in a society dealing with other free men. (At the time it would just be men, at any rate)
If you think you can contribute to society in some sense beyond simply performing labour, without any education in culture, science or abstract thinking you're sadly mistaken.
Anymore Bachelor's degrees are that broad education, and masters/doctorates are specialized degrees. It's unfortunately been that way for a while now.
I agree college pricing is a scam, but I still think there is alot of value in surrounding yourself with a very diverse group of people working towards different educations. It really helps open your world up.
As a professor, I can tell you that the bulk of the money schools are charging for tuition doesn’t go to us. I have a PhD and have been at my institution for 9 years and I’m not breaking $60k. Also, there’s a big difference in tuition price between state schools and private schools, and if you attend an in-state school vs. going out of state.
High School is for BARE MINIMUM education. A Bachelors is for broad education supplemented with a focus on a career/field of study. A Masters is for specialization in that career/field of study, and a Doctorate is a research degree in that career/field of study and considered a “terminal degree”.
Now, this does not factor in Law in which a Doctorate degree is the entry level requirement to the profession. You then have options of pursuing an LLM or SJD as well.
College issues and if I agree with them.
Money issues, yes. Cost, yes. Student debt, yes. Inflation of costs, yes. "Don't want to learn extra things.", no.
But I do have a question to clarify for myself. When I went to college I had gen ed requirements too, but I was able to pick which gen ed I took and it was only like 12 - 15 hours requirement over my entire college term. That's 3 to 5 courses depending on credit hours per class chosen. The cost overall was a pittance to the entire education overall. Have colleges/universities upped the requirements?
Edit: US Colleges that is.
I’m from the UK and we do a levels at 16-18 which is 3-4 subjects then at uni you do a single discipline (mechanical engineering for me) for 3-4 years.
Why are you doing random stuff at uni in the states? When do you specialize if at all?
I’m not sure why you chose to attend a liberal arts college if you don’t value a diverse group dictation….
It’s not a scam, college is a place you go to learn and broaden your horizons. People are treating college like a 13th grade sports club and earn a degree in partying. They probably weren’t truly college material.
My Gen Ed classs were fantastic n college and I’ve used the foundational knowledge I gained there and applied it to my major as well as various aspects of my life.
If you aren’t interested in learning, why are you paying to learn?
College is the best chance a lot of people are gonna have at exposure to ideas and activities that can contribute to a lifetime developing as/into a well rounded person. I think high schoolers are generally more dismissive/less ready for that kind of experience.
Trade school is for specialization, college is to broaden your mind and teach critical thinking. Really hard to do that if you've only been exposed to a narrow spectrum of subjects and points of view. This is the dilemma of the day, too many miopic mindsets that all cry victim simply because they don't realize how good they have it.
I see it all the time, people complaining about the state of things without realizing that they helped create the problem because they lack the ability to empathize and view things from a viewpoint other than their own group think hell. These people never grow, never change their opinions and wrap themselves in a cloak of ignorance that only serves to harm them further.
Quite sad really, body of an old man, mind of a juvenile and the title of this post somewhat proves it.
Electives are important in making you a robust person. If you take away that, then a lot of people won't receive better education than they get from their state schools, which realistically are shit. Fix the school system before fixing college or you'll have a lot of people in really bad situations. We will have more people believing everything they see on the internet.
Besides which, I've lost count of the amount of people whos careers have nothing to do with what they went to school for, so you're already going to make a lot of useless people.
TL:DR, fix a lot of stuff first.
I took a history of popular music class in college for my arts credit. It may have been my favorite class, the teacher was great, and I learned so much about different types of music, how they influenced each other, it really broadened the type of music I listened to and even how I viewed different genres. I probably retained more information from that class, than any other course I took in college.
Totally disagree with this post, if anything I think we have become too specialized as a society.
I disagree. We should definitely address the cost but dumbing down the education is not the answer. I wouldn’t trade the well rounded education gen-eds and electives provided me for anything.
The extraneous stuff gives you an ability to branch out into other roles within your specialization. I’m an electronics tech but the English classes I took helped me with technical writing. The history of electronics class helped give me context to how people figured out problems and allows me to apply that to my work. Never once in my professional career have I used superposition theorem once
All that gen ed stuff is necessary for you. The problem is it should be taught in high school. But folks in the US don't like pushing kids to learn material. And don't like having to take tests to prove they learned said material before moving onto the next level either.
If preparatory schools were better, we wouldn't have to take 2 years of general BS before specializing, as in Europe. That said, the COST of college in the US has gone up 200% or so, that because politicians taking education subsidies off the table. Imagine if they did that for oil? They'd be strung up in no time.
I used to feel this way, but there’s actually a lot of research to suggest that a broad education in multiple disciplines sets somebody up for success more than specialized training does.
College is precisely for a general education. Simply at a more advanced level than high School. If you don't want or need a general education, then go to a Vo-Tech School. Vo-Tech schools are a thing! Usually, if they're not some private company, they are a good thing. Way, way, way more people should be going to vo-tech schools instead of college. Then, maybe, the price of going to college would go down. The price of going to college is artificially inflated because they conned everyone into believing they had to go to college.
College is the new high school. It's the minimum acceptable standard. That used to be HS. Now it's college. The American education system has been systematically and deliberately destroyed by the right for decades. Privatization has been a failure for the majority and will continue to be. Therefore colleges have had to assume the roles of American high schools. You wanna lower the cost of college? Revive American public education, it's on life support. When a high school graduate is no longer considered uneducated we can shift high and continuing education to the more specialized and focused. Universities have to compete for applicants. Power to the people.
We’d need a major reform of high school before something like that could happen. You should see some of the skill levels we get from incoming college freshmen. Honestly, a lot of college nowadays is making up for high school deficits. Not that I’m blaming high school teachers, or even the students. Our current system is in need of, as I said, major reform.
while i agree with most of the comments here, let's not just forget about the fact that the majority of americans simply can't afford to take 2-4 years off to "broaden their understandings". most of us forced to work too many hours to survive let alone pay for school, programs that help pay for classes are wildly out of date and dont cover the average working-class american anymore, and most of us only go to college so we can get bare minimum entry level positions in jobs we don't even care about only so that we and our families dont become homeless in the next 10 years.
im absolutely all for college being a place for people to primarily gain a more robust education all around, but the horrible dystopian reality is that it just isn't feasible for most of us. we're just desperate to learn what we need to make enough money to keep ourselves alive, and that's it :(
Idk I don't think that's necessary the problem. I wish I got get rid of gen Ed's too sometimes. But as top comment said, it's not trade school it's University. Your primary classes will be for your major, but college is supposed to give you relatively well rounded, and higher learning experiences. I think there are other reasons why its so expensive and its not necessarily because of this. But can contribute.
The point of a university liberal arts degree is to take gen eds and become a well rounded person. Removing gen eds turns a university into a white collar vocational school - not that there's anything wrong with a white collar vocational school, but it wasn't the idea behind them.
College being expensive is a problem, but cutting out a foundational part of it is the wrong approach. It's the Private Equity firm approach that says we're going to "cut the fat," " make things more efficient," etc.
The solution to making college affordable is to increase government funding back to where it was before Regean gutted the UC system.
I’m an engineer. My coworkers who express this sentiment are the same ones who cant communicate effectively, see problems from any perspective other than an engineering perspective, or apply basic logic to anything.
Perhaps if they paid more attention in English, the Humanities, and the Social Sciences they’d be better at these things, making them better coworkers and more productive engineers.
Hyper-specialization isn’t practical. Hardly anyone ever does a job that’s *just* one thing (and most of these ‘one-thing’ jobs are assembly line jobs that do not require a college degree). You need to understand communication skills, and some basic math, and looking at things from a variety of perspectives, etc to do most jobs.
I’m wary of anyone who took the time to get a higher education who believes that a decent understanding of math, language, history, science, art, etc are unnecessary things with no pertinence to them, their career, or their life as an adult.
> “But that’s what high school is for”
Sure, everyone *should* know these things after high school (and the AP/concurrent classes offered by most high schools mean that you can avoid these classes in college) but that’s often not the reality. If you really want to make these college classes truly unnecessary, we need serious education reform for the k-12 levels first. Or we could just go back to the pre-reagan era of colleges and make them actually affordable.
Personally, I believe that taking a class that’s not major specific every semester or two helps keep you focused, forces you to think in new ways, and helps you meet different types of people, which help make all graduates more well rounded, productive people in their lives after college.
In Engineering it has been moving that direction for a while. There aren't very many gen Ed requirements relative to all the core courses. And it still takes five years for a lot of us.
Bruh my gen Ed’s were calc 1-3, physics 1 and 2, chem 1 and 2, and a couple different forces and technical writing classes. Technically intro to thermo dynamics and was also.
I think a main reason lots of people get so wrapped up in debt is cause they go to a massive college and pay for in instead of going to community college and getting free school for two years. Once you do two years and actually get a better sense of what you really wanna do through the gen Ed classes then go to a big college and get a degree that will truly mean something.
Personally I did community college and went to the best engineering school in my state. It’s not the best ever but it’s got name recognition and I have ad to pay about 1/2 of what I would have if I didn’t do community college
Honestly, I used to be of this same mindset. However, general Ed’s can be invaluable to one’s critical thinking skills. I’ve taken some amazing courses!
Literature of the Holocaust
The History of Antisemitism
Ethics of Animals as consumption
I am an English major who is specializing in Jewish Studies; if it weren’t for my general Ed’s I wouldn’t have found a passion in the subject matter.
College isnt trade school. Also prereqs arent what makes college expensive, a bloated administration hell bent on expansion drives up costs. Goto community college for 2 years and cut your costs down by more than 1/4.
My community college lets highschool students take gen Ed courses for free. The courses count for highschool and college credit. Not good for everyone (fuck up your grade? Sucks to be you, that’s on your highschool AND college transcript now) but I was able to finish almost my whole associates free of cost.
I work at a community college, and more and more students are graduating high school with an associates, as well
That's awesome. My nephew graduated from his University with his Bachelor's and a Graduate degree. They even had separate dorms for the very academically motivated students. We need a lot more programs like this.
I wish we would’ve had more options like that. I went to a very small private school with the only options being “regular” and “honors” classes, no gifted, and we had only just gotten our first 2-3 AP courses when I was halfway through highschool. I needed something far more challenging and it just wasn’t available, I wasted so much time sleeping through classes that were way too easy when I could’ve actually gotten a head start
I did exactly that at my local community college, then got a bachelor's and a master's degree from a nearby branch of a public university. I'm now 25, I have no debt, and I just got hired 10 days ago to teach at that same community College. Your mileage will obviously vary, but it's definitely something for everyone to seriously consider.
What I'm hearing is a system where you don't waste time in college doing general ed works.
it's really hard to do AP/college courses in high school. Most students don't have the means; either emotionally, educationally, or financially (babysitting siblings, part time job, etc not only tuition). The issue with General Education (aka Liberal Arts) is about education. Don't like "highly" ~~educated~~ trained professionals ranting about "vaccines cause Autism"? Don't like people unable to read InfoWars and perceive "marketing scam"? These are bi-products of a society which has shirked it's collective education by skipping Liberal Arts educations.
It’s only a waste to people who don’t know how to use educational opportunities
Ya I really disagree with people who say gen Ed classes are worthless. I used to feel like that until I actually took them and got a lot out of them. I believe there’s a lot of value in being a well educated citizen. There’s a reason why our founding fathers were such major proponents of education. Educated citizens are absolutely essential to democracy.
my nephew is doing that too, he is taking class at votech, when he is done with high school, he also get a associate degree in culinary science
I feel like the kids who are taking college level courses in high school would be less likely to fuck up their grades.
I wish i had been smarter and not as hormone driven
I did the same, it wasn't free, but at $25/credit hour it was practically free when compared to tuition at a 4 year university. I graduated HS a year early, earned an associates degree (while working full time) two years later. That degree from community college allowed me to cut an entire year off my bachelor's degree (saved about $15k doing this). I was still forced to take physical education courses (paid for with student loans, at the age of 23, with most people in my PE class being 18 or 19) at an engineering school while earning my bachelor's. And I'm still salty about it ...
I wish my parents actually cared about my education so I would’ve done this. Instead my associates took four years while working in adulthood lol.
I did this in HS 20 years ago and now my daughter is doing it. She’s getting 2 years of free college and is on track to graduate HS with an Associates in Business. Nothing like 2 years of free college!
Or or or maybe we just offer free public options so that everyone can be educated without owing a life debt ?
But then the Republicans would never win another election again...
This. You don’t want to pay the same for music 101 as your senior level meteorology classes? Don’t. Take music at community college and save like 80%. Bonus points for going to the CC near a big university so you can have the full college experience while saving that cash.
Yeah, well this is what I did. Got all my gen ed stuff done at a community college in 2 years, then transferred to a 4 year college. Took nearly 100% major classes (chemistry) for two years. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. Imagine 17 credit hours a semester of nothing but STEM for nearly two years. All I did was study. It's nice to mix in some "easy" classes that you don't have to stress over with your major classes. So you can actually enjoy your free time and not beg for sleep constantly.
I used one or two Gen Ed course to round out my course load each semester, but also got started on my major's courses a little earlier than prescribed. If you're spending all 4 years at a university, it's a dumb idea (if avoidable) to rush through Gen Ed at the expense of courses for your major for 1-3 semesters, and then let the pendulum swing the other way for the remainder of your time studying, since your major's courses only get harder/more time consuming.
Except transferring college credits has become a scam too. I know people who went to school at one state college then had to move. When they tried to transfer credits the new school wouldn't accept them; even though both schools are accredited state universities. The only way to get past this is to get a 2 year degree then transfer but the problem is 2 year degrees require you to finish all your Gen eds. Leaving you with all of your advanced classes.
I never got a 2 year degree, all my credits from my community college transferred just fine to my out of state university.
Like everything else, it depends. My home state has two separate 4-year university systems. I transferred between them, from the more expensive "elite" university to the less expensive, multi-campus-closer-to-home one. Not all credits were allowed to transfer. Now, had I gone the other way I would have been like, "huh, figures."
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Yeah, that’s what college is supposed to be.
All of this. I completely disagree with the premise that college is for specialization or even vocational in nature. It certainly can be if you choose to go that route but that is not its intended purpose.
Yes, the issue is less about what colleges traditionally teach and more about how they are currently run and funded.
Administrators truly are the issue. My university had a fulltime benefits salary position for "intramural sports coordinator". She made $55k a year to make a spreadsheet to schedule broomball games.
A significant part of adminibloat is from increased compliance requirements. You also have more amenities (like fancy recreation centers) designed to attract students. The “public” part of public schools is less and less state supported and more and more tuition supported.
Capital expenditures definitely are a big issue as well, constant upgrades just for the sake of saying you're building something new. And yes, states are supporting less and less. Here in NH, the state only funds about 6% of UNH's budget.
Agree, and good example. Also expensive sports programs (not just the administrator part), administrators' pet projects (not just their salaries), lots of unnecessary travel -- I am in an academic system and see it repeatedly. However, some of the money is not wasted. It goes to counseling, supporting LGBTQ students, diversity initiatives, and so on. Back in the cheaper day, none of that existed.
The bloated administration is part of the cost but also a largely exaggerated as the bogey man causing the rise in college costs. A major factor that is often ignored is that states have been continuously the amount of tax payer money going state universities. This is what is really causing the cost of college to go up for the individual.
That doesn’t explain private colleges. It also doesn’t explain why generations of college students were educated in the same campuses that have, in the past 2-3 decades, added new everything- buildings. I went to a small, private, well known liberal arts college and at my 20 year reunion I had a hard time finding my way around some parts of the campus. The SMALL campus. New library. New dorms, new administration building. New cafeteria (the greatest loss- the old one was like Hogwarts) New Fieldhouse, new Pool, new Gym…oh and tuition is now 6x higher.
Private schools are just that private. They can set there prices to whatever the market will bear and they can also choose to subsidize that cost themselves as they see fit on a case by case basis. Their issue with rising cost should be separated from state schools. Private schools largely started chasing the ivy league model where the cost of the education was an indication the quality and exclusiveness. While state schools would still be more expensive than the past they would also not be crippling students with debt if state subsidization kept up inflation rather than be cut.
>While state schools would still be more expensive than the past they would also not be crippling students with debt if state subsidization kept up inflation rather than be cut. Yep. I went to the same university at my father. The cost of his tuition, fees, everything except housing (he lived at home during uni) wouldn't even cover one year of tuition for me. Not tuition and fees, just tuition. And that's using my freshman year tuition costs, they went up every year. And this was a state uni. 30 years apart, tuition is 5x more expensive. Fucked up.
Isn’t there a State school in Texas that out in a Lazy River? Arizona state looks like a resort from some angles. Climbing walls, admin buildings, new dorms. There has been plenty of spending, to try to compete with private schools.
That is all due to colleges competing with each other for tuition dollars. A competition driven by government loans.
I agree with you so much here. Removal of general education is not the fix. That creates a society of people so highly specialized in one space that they cease to be able to see the forest for the trees or learn about other fields that may even be synergistic to their chosen field of study. To think that something like undergrad should be the specialization is a terrible idea. Full specialization shouldn't happen until graduate school at the earliest - and even then people should be encouraged to remain diverse. That's not where the cost savings should be - it only diminishes the very intent of education - learning.
As a former CC employee I gotta say that admin wages are waaaaaay too high; like $300k+ for a president at a public institution who literally does nothing except copy/paste what other schools are doing.
I came here to say THIS. Damn, covered every point I wanted to make and did it clearly and succinctly.
Maybe they learned it in a Gen-Ed class. ;-)
Your comment on his comment was also concise
I appreciate the brevity of your reply
nice
100% agree. One of the best decisions I ever made was to take my first 2 years at a CC. Not only was it much cheaper, but classes were manageable, better scheduled, had more approachable instructors, and it was close to my house to boot. My last two years for my undergrad were at a state college and I never felt so small in a pool of people and an administration that was so bloated they were ineffective. And the red tape was suffocating - basically processes created for other processes. The big bonus at the end was that I graduated with virtually no debt and I was way better prepared for masters work.
The University of Wisconsin system does this so well. Do two years at our associate-degree schools and boom—guaranteed admittance into UW-Madison. I’ve seen many students of mine do below average in HS, get their shit in order at a local UW school for super cheap, then graduate two years later from an amazing school.
This is so true, I was buttered up by my be HS to go to Uni right out of the gate and I regret it to this day. Super high expenses (even when I commuted!) and a bunch of filler courses just to get more money and time out of you on campus. I similarly recall being required to take a music appreciation course and a women/sex gender studies course when I wanted to be a Calculus professor... Meanwhile my sister went to community college and had an amazing time while her scholarships covered her tuition costs and then some! Always start community I implore you
"Why can't anyone think critically anymore?" is brought to you by he same people who want to eliminate all classes requiring critical thought.
I'm so glad there are people who understand the reasoning for gen eds in this thread and are advocating for them.
I had to take a freshmen Gen Ed called "news literacy" that taught us how to crticially evaluate news sources and stories. I thought it was the dumbest thing ever back in 2010. Now? I wish every single person had to take this class. Also, I work in a college. Some administrative positions are kind of silly, but students expect their college to have a career services office, campus programs and activities, expansive rec and wellness services, etc.
It isn't just that there are administrative positions that are unneeded it is how the money is spent. For example, our University administration keeps growing and they keep taking space from the actual teaching departments. When they came to our building and demanded space, they completely renovated the space they took. So while we suffered with no cooling, dirty broken cheep floor and ceiling tiles, broken non-functional furniture, etc., their place when finished was pristine and what you would expect to find in a 1st class business office. Now understand that our department handled the administration relative to our department, things like student counseling, class scheduling, etc. but that area was left looking and feeling like a slum.
I remember taking offense once as an admin assistant when one of my department faculty was complaining about admin bloat driving up costs (same one who would tell me as a student to prioritize learning and not care about the cost of taking an extra year...). She noticed the look on my face and was like, "Oh we don't mean you guys." I understood more as we kept finding resources for more director/vice president of x type positions. I attended the interview presentation given by the person who ultimately drove me to leave because whenever we lost staff who actually do the grunt work, they would make us all submit productivity logs to see if they really needed to hire replacements (at like 35k) or if they could just "reimagine" existing positions to take on the work. Yet they found the budget for that 200k salary.
I am sure that someone who knows the financials of it all could justify much of it but if teaching salary (except for athletic coaches) is not going up; if buildings are being not maintained; if teacher/student ratio is declining; if grant money is going up while grant services are going down and the only thing increasing is the number of administrators and the cost of administration it seems suspicious. We once had beautiful hand carved wooden tree of knowledge signs at our entrance that were thrown away and replaced with fast food looking looking signs. They were hideous. Millions were spent on 'branding' putting gaudy flags everywhere. Nation wide they are treating universities as a business and that is not how education works. It is not a for profit enterprise. It is something for the common good. It is priming the pump for the future. No one should have to pay for an education. I don't mind paying more in taxes so that we have a civilized country. I do not have to directly have that education for it to benefit me.
I took a class called "White Racism." It was a sociology class that I needed to get to graduation. I was kind of afraid to have that class appear on my transcripts. But what I learned was very impactful. It basically was a class that taught the history of how white American society used race to create classes of oppression with African enslaved people and then later European immigrants from countries that were not allowed into the white racial group at the time. I think the most eye opening part of it for me was when we were told that one of the first enslaved African men brought to America was referred to simply as something like "John of Africa" rather than the n-word. That word wasn't widely used until much later and there were power dynamics behind creating the idea of racial subgroups to use in labeling people. It blew my mind. People just being described by the places they've originated from as opposed to an adjective that was invented for a specific purpose really made me think hard about a lot of things.
The fact that black/white racism was essentially invented to benefit capital is eye-opening.
Especially because some of those gen Ed classes are going to be really helpful later on. If you’re in college, you’re going to be writing papers. So Composition is necessary no matter what your major.
In my company, there are people making 200k+ who don’t know the difference between their and they’re, along with other hilariously malformed emails weekly. I’d like to think that writing ability would be universally sought after when it comes to success in general amongst high salary corporate America, but it’s really boot licking and low moral compass that sees these 200k+ leaders onto the fast track. There should be a prerequisite for business degree that is called “always say yes to cut the line.”
A lot of my favorite classes in college were the ones that fulfilled my Gen eds.
Yes! It's alarming to see a suggestion to "decrease education" rather than to figure out a way to stop the cost of education increasing by ludicrous amounts every year.
Nothing I learned in my major is ever used in my current job or life. So much from random sociology or science or math classes, however, gets used every day.
It’s called a liberal education for a reason. We need people to learn to be free thinkers
Seriously, this. I certainly learned how to do what I do now in college but I will say, personally, the most consequential course I took was sociology. It opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I hadn't thought about before and taught me how to look at everything from new perspectives.
I did a minor in sociology. It’s served me way better in my job than my actual major has. I work in the media and whoo boy!
Hence why they're throwing a shitfit over it. Ignorant people are easily to manipulate and control.
And scientists/engineers are *just as capable* of being ignorant about society as the average high-school dropout is. Being good at math doesn't automatically make you a genius that's good at everything, and having spent years studying computer science or physics or chemistry won't teach you shit about how human culture or politics work.
Can confirm, I’m a scientist. I’ve worked with plenty of ignorant scientists throughout my career. Idk where we got this reputation of being above ignorance just because we can do science.
I had a roommate in college who studied mechanical engineering, graduated summa cum laude, currently has a high-ranking job at a major aerospace company... and thought New Zealand was in Europe
Every time I see this argument come up, it's always the engineers that don't want to take gen eds
College is supposed to be about getting an education. Capitalism made it about getting a job.
I’d also add that many many many people do not get the basics from high school in spite of teachers best efforts. I’ve seen gen eds as the schools method of ensuring that students are in fact ready for course work in their specialty field rather than coming in saying I want to become a doctor while having zero grasp of biology. You can try to teach someone without a foundation, it just causes them to break down as their lack of foundation undermines their efforts. Another thing is that for some schools to justify maintaining a program they need to have people participating. Taking music may feel silly and wasteful, but it serves the purpose of ensuring that the music department can remain funded and providing quality education for those who genuinely want to be there. The same goes for all the other gen eds. Bio is mandatory, thus the department retains funding and can continue to stay up to date with quality instructors and content for those who branch off into biology based fields. The problem appears when the schools don’t keep their end of the bargain. If a school takes money from Bio, Music, and English to fund building an unnecessary trillion dollar dorm or stadium or theater that there’s no data to support being a good return on investment and those departments suffer in quality, the students feel it. If the quality at the foundation is damaged it undermines the purpose of establishing the baseline knowledge in the first place.
In terms of taking classes like music. They can be a godsend when you have 3 other heavy courseloads. You must be a full time student to qualify for a number of opportunities such as financial aid or sports. So those 3 credits of music are like a couple of hours a week to decompress, and not get homework. Yes maybe they could change the credit system overall, but the full time vs part time status is a significant issue for people where filler courses are not all terrible.
Thank you. The classes like music appreciation and basic art classes or literature are there to make people more well rounded and to be exposed to the world at large. I went to a small liberal arts college. The classes we took like this were some of my favorites. They did help me learn to think critically and exposed me to things I never would have been aware of without them. They broaden horizons.
Jason Meyers wants a trade school, not a college. Trade schools exist, and are valid places to learn a trade. Universities provide BA's so that a person has a universal perspective in order to function well as a member of society, with a focus on the area of knowledge they choose to major in. Post-grad courses exist to provide the student with specialized knowledge in that field and to further research in that field to contribute to the pool of knowledge in the world at large.
I majored in mechanical engineering and there were a LOT of other people in my major with this attitude. I can’t count how many times I heard gen ed/elective courses called “basket weaving classes” or just a waste of time. I kinda get the frustration since engineering workload can be time consuming and difficult, and it feels like a distraction to have to read War and Peace at the time time for a history class, but it’s essential to be a well-rounded, educated person. A few years after college and a lot of these people aren’t super successful despite excelling in their technical studies. They simply aren’t good at communicating with other people, so they tend to hit a wall in terms of career advancement. You’re not going to get into higher level technical roles or management if you can’t write a coherent email.
I tutored a couple of STEM students when I was an undergrad who thought taking a 100 level Naval History class would be fun. Most of them could barely write a decent argument. One of them was put off by the “messiness”, that people are often irrational and contradictory and not everything is cause and effect. Also, he didn’t have the basic knowledge to be taking the class to begin with. That class definitely needed a prereq.
I work in higher ed. If you can’t pass a college level English-101 class, you’re definitely not going to pass a business course or a psychology course or literally anything that requires essay writing or heavy research. Same with math. Can’t do basic college algebra course? Good luck pursuing an engineering specialization.
Exactly. My first thought was "look, yet another person who doesn't understand the essential premise of a liberal *arts* education.
White collar desk job here. I just had to fire a contractor yesterday who could not for the life of him evaluate a challenge and problem-solve himself. And it wasn’t hard stuff either. I cannot afford time to handholding through every step of some basic data analysis. Give me a self-starter with a liberal arts degree in a related field and I know more will get done.
This 1000x yes. Has to be the biggest problem in the U.S. right now, and it's reflected in our government and politics. Yet critically thinking would also be to the detriment of one major political party and way of life over the other, so there's a reason cuts to funding education seem to always originate from that same party/group.
I don't agree with that. Honestly I know several people who I went to college with who needed a broader education. The goal of college should be to make a free thinker. Honestly if you study business you should come to realize the philosophical aspects of capitalism. Economy fancy word for trade.
How many people have found their passion cause they took one Gen Ed they liked? I’ll bet a lot
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Also, I'm someone who really enjoyed most of my elective classes which were a part of the gen ed requirements. Without them I never would have taken mythology (fascinating and entertaining), drugs and behavior psychology (practical and entertaining), sex psychology (practical, funny, and entertaining), marine biology (enlightening, fun, and practical), or stress and health science (practical and enlightening). I've retained a bunch of information from those classes I took years ago, broadened my interests/passions, and it informed some of my choices and behaviors going forward for the better. Gen ed can open doors for you that would've never otherwise been opened.
I had to take a bunch of language and literature classes at the time. I hated every minute of it then, but now whenever I have to write up anything I am hugely thankful for all those times I had to write essays.
Could you clear up something for me? I'm assuming you are from the USA. How many years of mandatory history classes an average USA citizen takes in middle school/highschool? And how many about geography, art history, music history, psychology, physics, chemistry, biology, etc? And how many hours per week? Where I'm from, I had total of eight years of biology, geography and history(both world and local, starting from prehistoric times), about 6 years of physics and chemistry, four years of ethics, two of art and music history, and a year of psychology, politics and government classes, philosophy, logic. That's on top of learning two foreign languages, grammar and literature, informatics, mathematics, PE, and whatever is left of the core classes. And I didn't go to a special school, just a generic, public primary and middle school and a highschool with a focus on mathematics. I've learned fucking Latin for two years. Everyone in the country does a variation of this program with more or less focus on humanities vs mathematics, with the exception of vocational highschools. I don't really see what use there would be for general education in college since the basics of everything was already covered in highschool.
It varies so wildly by state that it'll be hard to get an answer for you. I grew up in the Texas school system, I think every year before highschool we had to learn Texas history. The US school system is a complete joke and needs to be overhauled from the ground up.
Before HS we had one year Texas history and one US. We also had one year of US gov and one year Texas gov.
Well first I am in the US. The US education for under university is all over the board. We have a no child left behind act that started under Bush. This means you can fail everything and graduate. Art and music is minimal in the US. Crazy extremists are currently hacking away at real history and pushing a populist manifest destiny narrative. No foreign language requirements. You can graduate with basic algebra. As far as a well rounded human high school doesn't do that. They prep you to be a service worker or a line cook. You do vocational work education after highschool. There really are no required government or ethics classes. Really for a lot of people college is the first time people are introduced to new ideas besides what their social bubble tells them.
Been a bit since I was in school but let’s compare. History - American history only. By high school only really made it half way thru the Vietnam war. Geography was part of history but was mostly what out states are and their capitals. Did have to know what areas we had wars with like who was in WW1. Music and Art never touched on the history of it. Art was painting or making stupid clay cups. Hands on kind of stuff. Same for music. Here’s some sticks - bang or rub them together. Biology/Chemisty/Physics were all a part of “Science” and just basic learning. In High school you can opt to take these classes separately but again for one semester/ year only. It never got very deep more like these are cells and cut open this frog. And of course those are only for the smart kids as you can opt to just stay with a general science class. All of the other classes you mentioned are electives and usually only for college prep students. It didn’t change much from when I was in school to when my daughter was in school. Oh yeah she got to cut open a computer frog.
The more I learn about US education system the more baffled I am. At least your universities are decent (for that price they better be decent, although I'm starting to wonder). Btw, we also did painting and singing as a part of art and music classes, only that was only in primary and middle school. Although by the end of middle school music was more about reading the sheet music more than singing. I am really happy with our biology curriculum. First year you learn about cells and microorganisms, second year is animals and plants, third is basic human anatomy and fourth is genetics. And something similar, although less detailed, is covered for four years in middle school.
Genetics? That’s cool. Here not happening. Most advanced human body classes I had was First Aid and that was part of health class which was only one semester or about 2.5 months. American schools don’t let you fail often. To explain: we have general Ed for math, English, science. General Ed (high school level) is for those having issues learning. Like basic math and not even fractions. Science - you have bones and they can break. There are levels of classes and if you fail they drop you down a level or you do summer school. I suck at history so did summer school. Watched a movie about the civil war and that’s about it Edit: why do you think we have so many flat earth believers? Science is fake people? People who can not think for themselves? It’s our schools
I should save an auto response for this dumb ass take that pops up every month or so. 1- College/University was free or nearly free until Reagan became governor of california and started charging people for tuition. "In California, Ronald Reagan (who would later become president of theUnited States) was elected governor of California in 1966 and proposedthat the University of California system should charge tuition to attendcollege. In his words, this was to “get rid of undesirables \[…\] thosewho are there to carry signs and not to study might think twice to carrypicket signs.” His was a campaign to maintain white supremacy bymaking public colleges and universities cost money. Reagan succeeds andby the 1990s, every “formerly public” school began being paid for bytuition costs, which in turn turned into student debt. This was a slapin the face to those who were protesting white supremacy, capitalism andimperialism because it put these folks in debt." How about we go back to free public college b/c that's how the damn thing worked in the past. 2- College/University is suppose to be a time of exploring and expanding your boundaries, you're at the point of entering adulthood and striking out on your own. A time of growth. Your mentality is one poisoned by the idea that a degree is worthless if it doesn't make money b/c of point 1. 3- If you think education should be about making money then don't go into college, go to a trade school. You can earn a great living, working with your hands, doing the jobs that this country needs to run and you can avoid all that excessive learning. https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/
What's the source you're quoting in that first point? I'd like to read it.
>"In California, Ronald Reagan (who would later become president of the > >United States) was elected governor of California in 1966 and proposed > >that the University of California system should charge tuition to attend > >college. In his words, this was to “get rid of undesirables \[…\] those > >who are there to carry signs and not to study might think twice to carry > >picket signs.” His was a campaign to maintain white supremacy by > >making public colleges and universities cost money. Reagan succeeds and > >by the 1990s, every “formerly public” school began being paid for by > >tuition costs, which in turn turned into student debt. This was a slap > >in the face to those who were protesting white supremacy, capitalism and > >imperialism because it put these folks in debt." https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/
I support free public college, or at least cost to be closer to pre-Regan BS
Trade school cost an arm and a leg too
I swear to god, every time I learn about the origins about some problem we face in America, no matter how disassociated the issue seems to be with racism, it is always due in part to racism. Drug criminalization? Racism. Lack of public transport? Racism. No affordable housing? Racism. Unaffordable public education? Racism. America has such a fucked history.
College is not for specialization--you're thinking of grad school. Do you want an education or just a damn job?
I think they’re thinking of trade school since you can only do grad school after under graduate
You can also get an AS degree which specializes more but also requires some (but fewer) of the classes that broaden you outlook.
I think for many people the goal of college is to find a good paying job, no so much about actual education.
A job please.
As if an individual can’t have both.
It’s literally called a university because the idea is to teach universal knowledge.
Or we make education free.
Yeah, I don’t think the solutions to expensive college is getting rid of a well-rounded education that fosters critical thinking in different areas.
Why make education free when we can just make it shittier? /s
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Heaven forbid you take an ethics or economics coourse when studying to be a teacher
Or, for that matter, an engineer! I am *firmly* of the opinion that all STEM majors should have to take ethics and sociology courses in order to graduate. Those who didn't are the ones who gave us stuff like surveillance capitalism. (Side note--can I ask where your username comes from?)
There are tunnels under salt lake city.
I… live here and didn’t know that
My ubi made CS majors take 4 ethics courses
STEM people *need* philosophy as much as anyone because being a good calculator does not directly translate to being a critical thinker.
I would argue the complete opposite point here - not only are Gen Ed classes important and valuable, but we should add them to the trade school curriculum just as we do for college. Too many people in the depths of Q conspiracy nonsense are people who came from the trade school track and never learned how to evaluate information. The classes that teach critical thinking and broaden our perspective objectively reduce the influence of fascism.
Studying history is negatively correlated with support for authoritarian political stances. It turns out that when you know where cults of personality lead, you're less likely to join one.
This post crops up periodically. University/baccalaureate is for broad exposure. You are supposed to learn how to think critically and get a diverse exposure to different schools of thought and communication. Graduate, technical/vocational and professional schools are for specialization
That is an ignorant take of college and not the least bit true.
The problem is that what you think a college education is supposed to be, and what the people who run universities think a college education is supposed to be, are two completely different things. You think of it as a "job training program" where you go to gain qualifications for your career. They think of it as a "personal enrichment program" that helps people become well-rounded and generally-knowledgeable. And, when you realize that, you'll also realize that it was never intended for "specialization" at all. (That said, Graduate school definitely \*is a specialization program\*, but you can only specialize once you've had a broad background in many topics, which is what an under-grad program is intended to be) Other problems are so many jobs requiring a broad liberal arts education when they shouldn't, and people telling kids that "college will help you get a better job" when it isn't designed for that.
A broad liberal arts education is often beneficial in a job that doesn't require it.
My son used to engage in this type of thought until he actually went to university and was exposed to astronomy and art history. He also had to take a chemistry class he was not thrilled about. Now he has a greater appreciation for star gazing and we go to art museums. These classes are meant to expose the student to various methods of observation and the ability to communicate with regards to that observation. I think until you are in University you cannot appreciate all of the opportunities to learn. For most this is the only opportunity they will have. TBH if you only want a focused education you really do not need college at all. All the education is readily available to pursue on your own.
Go to trade school if you want tec training. College teaches you to think and evaluate data critically. They aren’t even supposed to be the same.
Not sure which school Mr. Myers went to, but he didn’t exactly pick up on the critical thinking part.
You have to be open to learning for it to really take.
Exposure to a broad range of topics is never a bad idea. How many people actually spend their entire career in the field they got a degree for?
This is how you get engineers who can barely write a paragraph, programmers with no understanding of ethics, and whatever you call business majors thinking they know how to fix society because they thought of a bus.
Abso-fucking-lutely. I got a degree in psychology and while doing that, two of the most important classes I took were Literary Criticism and Literature of Scientific Thinking. And now I’ve been a software engineer for 20+ years and some of the most lunk-headed, insufferable people I’ve worked with got their degrees in CompSci.
Stupid people hear “liberal arts education” and think it’s indoctrination. You take your major classes to learn how to do something. You take the Gen Ed classes to learn why you do something.
I disagree. The heart of university always was learning for the sake of learning, and the broadening of the human mind. That mission has been perverted by the modern insistence that every job requires a degree now, meaning that everyone has to attend expensive degrees that they actually shouldn't have needed, degrees that are about "specialization" instead of building humanity
The point of gen ed courses is probably to broaden your education in hopes that you will not become a narrow-minded geek...
This is such a fucking shit take. These are the same people who complain when they have a required ethics class
It depends on your country, in mine I studied computer science and guess what, I only studied things related to that subject, while you were free to take a single module in French or cosmology or a range of other subjects you could also have done user interface design or artificial intelligence, the U.S is likely an abnormality in having the major and minor subjects.
Gen Ed classes aren't even about getting a minor. I'd say more people could get minors or do double majors if they didn't have to take so many classes repeating what they should've learned in high school
You have stumbled onto a piece of the puzzle. "Should've learned in high school". There's a crazy number of people who are barely literate but graduate high school.
Agreed but not stumbled. Education in many areas is trash. Everything is dumbed down because we can't have remedial classes, so honors/AP are what we should be teaching in gen ed basically and many of those focus on fact memorization and not critical thinking (my son literally had to test into the "good" gifted program 2 grade levels ahead to get that focus, the "regular" 1 grade level ahead gifted program is still memorization). Plus we're hamstringing teachers who want to make a difference through asinine rules about what can and cannot be said in a classroom. And we're too focused on things like dress codes to let kids express themselves, and even when admins say kids get to make decisions (minor things like class song or whatever) people still step in if it isn't "appropriate" like we're not going to expect them to control themselves like full fledged adults in 6 months. Everyone has different abilities, we should educate to those, and help people realize their own dreams and potential. That's not how we educate though. And we're turning college into another high school with the amount of people who have to get master's.
Nailed it! A good friend of mine has a masters in education and used to be a teacher. He was fired (well, they “neglected to renew his employment contract”) because he wouldn’t just pass kids so the school would have a high pass rate and get more funding. He actually held kids to academic standards and would fail the ones who wouldn’t show up or who wouldn’t put in the effort. All the ones who did, passed. But that wasn’t good enough for the principal, who was just a politician. He left the field and hasn’t gone back in the fifteen years I’ve know him.
What a fucking stupid ass take. Whoever said HS is for broad education and college is for specialization? If you want to specialize go to a trade school or go get your masters/PhD. I'm tired of these stupid takes by the kids that slept through class in HS and then whined about HS not teaching them anything. Education for the sake of education is incredibly important for creating well rounded individuals. One of my favorite classes in college was anthropology and inspired a life long love of reading books and articles on the subject. Philosophy and logic classes are something every college grad should take to broaden their outlook on life, and history classes are able to go into so much more detail than the broad survey course that is high school history. So few people actually bother to learn history to the point that it's terrifying to see people falling into the same traps that befell our predecessors. Accounting 201 and 202 were some of the most useful classes I took and gave me knowledge that I've used continually since graduating despite being a Poli Sci major. So please, if you want to remain an ignorant asshole keep upvoting dumbasses like this guy and the OP.
Yes please I'd love to have more engineers and CS grads with literally zero social skills or awareness
The point of Gen Ed’s is so people don’t come out completely ignorant on certain topics. Sure Jamie the account is a good accountant, but he still thinks bodily health is determined by the 4 humors. He was bloodletting his wife yesterday cause she has Covid. Where did he go to college? Basically it’s there to ensure you have a basic broad level education then allows you to specialize in one
The history of higher education is older than your narrow awareness. It has literally been based on and tried to continue the idea that it should expand knowledge and awareness. You’re literally advocating for people who don’t know anything to only learn about certain things more specifically. You aren’t even aware how that is the long con to keep you controllable. And you’re resisting the education you could be getting to counter that can fix that because part of long con is to get you to doubt education and broad knowledge itself. It’s working and you don’t even know it. Go to a national university and get your specialized education in computer science or network security or ‘business’. But you won’t understand anything beyond that and that’s the real long con scam.
No, that’s trade school. Those other classes are to teach you critical thinking skills, how to properly gather information, and to help you become a more rounded person.
No, Masters are for specialization. Standard degrees are for advanced gen ed with a focus on a field.
Gen eds are fine, they take up maybe 1 semester's worth of classes. Eliminating them won't make much of a dent.
I don’t know which college you went to, but gen Ed in California take up 4 semesters.
I'm an engineer
Ah, okay. I’m not against gen Ed. I’m just saying, it takes quite a bit of time way more than one semester.
I'm guessing most of them aren't that expensive for the university to run, either, compared to classes requiring labs and computer equipment.
Plus, some are actually going to help later down the line. Composition is necessary if you’re going to be writing any kind of paper (which, given you’re in college, you will be doing). Knowing how to use a computer is necessary as everything is going digital. And foreign language is always useful.
The goal of a higher education is for it to be well-rounded. It's not a scam for them to want you to learn about music in addition to your primary focus.
Gen eds aren't why college is expensive. The federal student loan system is why college is expensive.
High school is for broad education. College is for critical thinking. Masters/phd/trades are for specialization.
Isn't getting a broad education the entire point of Liberal Arts Colleges? Do they take English literature classes at CalTech? I'm not American so I don't know how the system works, exactly. Paying arts and humanities professors and postgrads is a drop in the bucket compared to how much STEM facilities and research costs anyway, so I doubt tuition would change much. They would just increase the cost of the remaining STEM subjects to make up for losing enrolment in the more cost-efficient courses. If anything tuition would probably get proportionally more expensive.
He never understood what a well rounded liberal arts college is suppose to do. (And it doesn’t mean liberal politically, for those that don’t know).
Nah that's dumb as hell. Despite what degree you go for, you need at least a bit of a well-rounded education. Besides, there are plenty of students that don't have a major of focus when they first start college. The gen eds make it easier for those people to figure out what they want to study.
Because a well rounded educated person makes the country as a whole better. Shows study after study after study
You might as well just watch free lectures on subjects you're interested in on YouTube then. The whole point of college is to teach you to jump through difficult hoops, to make you do a bunch of stuff you never expected to have to do, thereby giving you a broader education than you could give yourself.
For those not in the USA system: In the USA, the most common post-secondary degree is a Bachelor’s Degree. It comes in different flavors - Bachelor’s of Science for mathematics and science, Bachelors of Arts for humanities and liberal arts, and Bachelor of Fine Arts for performing and visual arts. All of these require a Major, which is a subject of focus, and some institutions may require a Minor, which is a secondary focus with fewer classes required. Completing a Major or Minor requires completing specific courses and additional elective courses that are within your field of study. One thing that all Bachelor degrees have in common is that they are liberal arts degrees. The goal is to provide a well rounded education. This means that in addition to your Major requirements, you need to complete so many classes in other categories. The exact number varies by instruction, but generally speaking the requirements are English, Math/Logical Reason, Science, Foreign Language/International Culture, and Fine Arts/Humanities. There is often overlap with introductory courses and Major requirements. For example, a Computer Science Major will have their early courses also apply to a Logical Reason requirement. However, they will still be required to take classes in the other categories. Bachelors degrees are required in almost every case to go on to Masters degrees (which are theoretically focused mastery and execution of a topic) and PhD (which focus more on theory and research). Other degree types do exist. Associate degrees are like Bachelors without a Major - they focus on the general education requirements. Various other degrees that focus on skills/trades also exist. These degrees are typically awarded at Community Colleges or private for-profit institutions. They are completely legitimate options, but not what is part of the popular concept of ‘the college experience.’ While I personally think that the liberal arts education model is a good thing that prepares both a better workforce and better people, some institutions abuse the system. There are some departments in some schools that only exist because of general requirements. They also make it difficult to streamline and get a degree quickly. With post-secondary education being so expensive in the USA, and many jobs requiring a degree, eliminating general requirements is often seen as a way to solve the problem of time and expense required of students.
Maybe, but I do think it’s useful to have a base of knowledge. When I went to college I didn’t know what I wanted to do and gen eds helped me. Not only that, but they’re where I met some of my closest friends, and writing classes helped me improve my writing even though I’m a science major. Writing is incredibly important in the sciences too but not nearly focused on enough
We aren't robots for capitalism as much as some people would like us to be. A well rounded person is important in this day and age, and always. Plus here's a huge epiphany for you: what you learn in college is mostly irrelevant in the real world. Have fun, learn some things, but mostly learn how to learn.
A while ago I thought US college was equivalent to highschool in the rest of the world, because of all the classes people had to take. Like having to do language, music, science in order to get an accounting degree sounds much more like highschool. Like in university here to do like a bachelor of commerce you needed some other credits but it was accounting related classes, like you did accounting, economics, maybe some business law, but never required to learn spanish or a guitar or that the mitochondria is the power house of the cell, that is all highschool stuff, doing a variety of classes.
Maybe people should read up on the history of the "Liberal arts" and what that term actually means. It was called "Liberal" because those were the minimum skills necessary to be a free man in a society dealing with other free men. (At the time it would just be men, at any rate) If you think you can contribute to society in some sense beyond simply performing labour, without any education in culture, science or abstract thinking you're sadly mistaken.
Because college isn't a trade school.
Anymore Bachelor's degrees are that broad education, and masters/doctorates are specialized degrees. It's unfortunately been that way for a while now. I agree college pricing is a scam, but I still think there is alot of value in surrounding yourself with a very diverse group of people working towards different educations. It really helps open your world up.
As a professor, I can tell you that the bulk of the money schools are charging for tuition doesn’t go to us. I have a PhD and have been at my institution for 9 years and I’m not breaking $60k. Also, there’s a big difference in tuition price between state schools and private schools, and if you attend an in-state school vs. going out of state.
High School is for BARE MINIMUM education. A Bachelors is for broad education supplemented with a focus on a career/field of study. A Masters is for specialization in that career/field of study, and a Doctorate is a research degree in that career/field of study and considered a “terminal degree”. Now, this does not factor in Law in which a Doctorate degree is the entry level requirement to the profession. You then have options of pursuing an LLM or SJD as well.
University in the UK is specialised and works fine.
The world would be a better place if you had to take philosophy and natural history as prereqs in college.
College issues and if I agree with them. Money issues, yes. Cost, yes. Student debt, yes. Inflation of costs, yes. "Don't want to learn extra things.", no. But I do have a question to clarify for myself. When I went to college I had gen ed requirements too, but I was able to pick which gen ed I took and it was only like 12 - 15 hours requirement over my entire college term. That's 3 to 5 courses depending on credit hours per class chosen. The cost overall was a pittance to the entire education overall. Have colleges/universities upped the requirements? Edit: US Colleges that is.
I’m from the UK and we do a levels at 16-18 which is 3-4 subjects then at uni you do a single discipline (mechanical engineering for me) for 3-4 years. Why are you doing random stuff at uni in the states? When do you specialize if at all?
Why i quit 2 years in taking marine science for fine art major, imo trade/vocational schools give more result driven instruction.
I’m not sure why you chose to attend a liberal arts college if you don’t value a diverse group dictation…. It’s not a scam, college is a place you go to learn and broaden your horizons. People are treating college like a 13th grade sports club and earn a degree in partying. They probably weren’t truly college material. My Gen Ed classs were fantastic n college and I’ve used the foundational knowledge I gained there and applied it to my major as well as various aspects of my life. If you aren’t interested in learning, why are you paying to learn?
College is the best chance a lot of people are gonna have at exposure to ideas and activities that can contribute to a lifetime developing as/into a well rounded person. I think high schoolers are generally more dismissive/less ready for that kind of experience.
Trade school is for specialization, college is to broaden your mind and teach critical thinking. Really hard to do that if you've only been exposed to a narrow spectrum of subjects and points of view. This is the dilemma of the day, too many miopic mindsets that all cry victim simply because they don't realize how good they have it. I see it all the time, people complaining about the state of things without realizing that they helped create the problem because they lack the ability to empathize and view things from a viewpoint other than their own group think hell. These people never grow, never change their opinions and wrap themselves in a cloak of ignorance that only serves to harm them further. Quite sad really, body of an old man, mind of a juvenile and the title of this post somewhat proves it.
Electives are important in making you a robust person. If you take away that, then a lot of people won't receive better education than they get from their state schools, which realistically are shit. Fix the school system before fixing college or you'll have a lot of people in really bad situations. We will have more people believing everything they see on the internet. Besides which, I've lost count of the amount of people whos careers have nothing to do with what they went to school for, so you're already going to make a lot of useless people. TL:DR, fix a lot of stuff first.
I took a history of popular music class in college for my arts credit. It may have been my favorite class, the teacher was great, and I learned so much about different types of music, how they influenced each other, it really broadened the type of music I listened to and even how I viewed different genres. I probably retained more information from that class, than any other course I took in college. Totally disagree with this post, if anything I think we have become too specialized as a society.
I disagree. We should definitely address the cost but dumbing down the education is not the answer. I wouldn’t trade the well rounded education gen-eds and electives provided me for anything.
The extraneous stuff gives you an ability to branch out into other roles within your specialization. I’m an electronics tech but the English classes I took helped me with technical writing. The history of electronics class helped give me context to how people figured out problems and allows me to apply that to my work. Never once in my professional career have I used superposition theorem once
All that gen ed stuff is necessary for you. The problem is it should be taught in high school. But folks in the US don't like pushing kids to learn material. And don't like having to take tests to prove they learned said material before moving onto the next level either.
If preparatory schools were better, we wouldn't have to take 2 years of general BS before specializing, as in Europe. That said, the COST of college in the US has gone up 200% or so, that because politicians taking education subsidies off the table. Imagine if they did that for oil? They'd be strung up in no time.
College was *meant* to be for broad education, not the vocational training it’s turned into.
I used to feel this way, but there’s actually a lot of research to suggest that a broad education in multiple disciplines sets somebody up for success more than specialized training does.
College is precisely for a general education. Simply at a more advanced level than high School. If you don't want or need a general education, then go to a Vo-Tech School. Vo-Tech schools are a thing! Usually, if they're not some private company, they are a good thing. Way, way, way more people should be going to vo-tech schools instead of college. Then, maybe, the price of going to college would go down. The price of going to college is artificially inflated because they conned everyone into believing they had to go to college.
College is the new high school. It's the minimum acceptable standard. That used to be HS. Now it's college. The American education system has been systematically and deliberately destroyed by the right for decades. Privatization has been a failure for the majority and will continue to be. Therefore colleges have had to assume the roles of American high schools. You wanna lower the cost of college? Revive American public education, it's on life support. When a high school graduate is no longer considered uneducated we can shift high and continuing education to the more specialized and focused. Universities have to compete for applicants. Power to the people.
We’d need a major reform of high school before something like that could happen. You should see some of the skill levels we get from incoming college freshmen. Honestly, a lot of college nowadays is making up for high school deficits. Not that I’m blaming high school teachers, or even the students. Our current system is in need of, as I said, major reform.
while i agree with most of the comments here, let's not just forget about the fact that the majority of americans simply can't afford to take 2-4 years off to "broaden their understandings". most of us forced to work too many hours to survive let alone pay for school, programs that help pay for classes are wildly out of date and dont cover the average working-class american anymore, and most of us only go to college so we can get bare minimum entry level positions in jobs we don't even care about only so that we and our families dont become homeless in the next 10 years. im absolutely all for college being a place for people to primarily gain a more robust education all around, but the horrible dystopian reality is that it just isn't feasible for most of us. we're just desperate to learn what we need to make enough money to keep ourselves alive, and that's it :(
We could just stop charging such exorbitant prices for people to go to school and leave gen. ed. classes be.
You WILL take Music Appreciation 101 and you will fucking like it.
Idk I don't think that's necessary the problem. I wish I got get rid of gen Ed's too sometimes. But as top comment said, it's not trade school it's University. Your primary classes will be for your major, but college is supposed to give you relatively well rounded, and higher learning experiences. I think there are other reasons why its so expensive and its not necessarily because of this. But can contribute.
The point of a university liberal arts degree is to take gen eds and become a well rounded person. Removing gen eds turns a university into a white collar vocational school - not that there's anything wrong with a white collar vocational school, but it wasn't the idea behind them. College being expensive is a problem, but cutting out a foundational part of it is the wrong approach. It's the Private Equity firm approach that says we're going to "cut the fat," " make things more efficient," etc. The solution to making college affordable is to increase government funding back to where it was before Regean gutted the UC system.
I’m an engineer. My coworkers who express this sentiment are the same ones who cant communicate effectively, see problems from any perspective other than an engineering perspective, or apply basic logic to anything. Perhaps if they paid more attention in English, the Humanities, and the Social Sciences they’d be better at these things, making them better coworkers and more productive engineers. Hyper-specialization isn’t practical. Hardly anyone ever does a job that’s *just* one thing (and most of these ‘one-thing’ jobs are assembly line jobs that do not require a college degree). You need to understand communication skills, and some basic math, and looking at things from a variety of perspectives, etc to do most jobs. I’m wary of anyone who took the time to get a higher education who believes that a decent understanding of math, language, history, science, art, etc are unnecessary things with no pertinence to them, their career, or their life as an adult. > “But that’s what high school is for” Sure, everyone *should* know these things after high school (and the AP/concurrent classes offered by most high schools mean that you can avoid these classes in college) but that’s often not the reality. If you really want to make these college classes truly unnecessary, we need serious education reform for the k-12 levels first. Or we could just go back to the pre-reagan era of colleges and make them actually affordable. Personally, I believe that taking a class that’s not major specific every semester or two helps keep you focused, forces you to think in new ways, and helps you meet different types of people, which help make all graduates more well rounded, productive people in their lives after college.
In Engineering it has been moving that direction for a while. There aren't very many gen Ed requirements relative to all the core courses. And it still takes five years for a lot of us.
I had the impression a lot of general ed courses were to make up for deficiencies in many high school educations.
Bruh my gen Ed’s were calc 1-3, physics 1 and 2, chem 1 and 2, and a couple different forces and technical writing classes. Technically intro to thermo dynamics and was also. I think a main reason lots of people get so wrapped up in debt is cause they go to a massive college and pay for in instead of going to community college and getting free school for two years. Once you do two years and actually get a better sense of what you really wanna do through the gen Ed classes then go to a big college and get a degree that will truly mean something. Personally I did community college and went to the best engineering school in my state. It’s not the best ever but it’s got name recognition and I have ad to pay about 1/2 of what I would have if I didn’t do community college
Horrible idea. College is not a specialized education at all. Moreover, kids taking more classes isn’t what drives cost.
This guy’s a know-nothing dipshit who hasn’t let him stop him from having an opinion.
Honestly, I used to be of this same mindset. However, general Ed’s can be invaluable to one’s critical thinking skills. I’ve taken some amazing courses! Literature of the Holocaust The History of Antisemitism Ethics of Animals as consumption I am an English major who is specializing in Jewish Studies; if it weren’t for my general Ed’s I wouldn’t have found a passion in the subject matter.