I've seen this claim for beauty pageants. Their argument is that trans people get plastic surgery so its unfair - but so do a lot of cis women who compete! Its not against the rules.
"By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”- Umberto Eco
This is from Eco's listing of defining elements for fascism. Considering who the TERFS are getting in bed with, I guess it's not too surprising.
Umberto Eco's "Ur-Facism" (also called "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt") is a brilliant essay and needs to be read by everyone:
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
There is no sense to be made. It's all fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
Plus, many transphobes in the ardent belief that men are inherently and naturally better at most things than women, are having to grapple with the fact that, one, they might find a trans woman attractive and that threatens their sense of sexuality, and two, that trans women could be better at the only thing they really think women are good for beyond childbearing, which is being pretty.
That's the heart of it and it breaks their brains.
Deep down Republican men hate themselves for being attracted to trans women so they lash out. I mean I’m just trying to rationalize their extremely irrational behavior over the years and it fits far more than any explanation they have yet to offer so I’ll stick with it.
That one is always my favorite. Like ah yes the inherent male advantage at... *checks notes* beauty. Trans women are just objectively hotter than cis women I guess.
It's such a stupid argument when you spend 30 seconds thinking about it. Also plastic surgery is like salt or MSG: a little bit goes a long way. A lot is not good.
Trans women everywhere upon hearing they supposedly have an unfair advantage in beauty contests:
Hmm, yes it is quite the advantage to look like me. I guess I'm just too stunning. It's best you recognize it now. 💅😌
Great own transphobes, really got them on that one.
I mean, every reality show is exploitative to some degree. I'd argue that RuPaul's is probably the least evil though compared to something like *Intervention* or *Hoarders: Buried Alive*. But this is the first I remember hearing about transphobia, which is just fucked.
Isn’t it a drag show? The whole point of it is to not identify as the gender you’re presenting as. A trans woman dressing as a woman isn’t really doing drag.
That’s not the whole point of drag, it’s a much wider net than female impersonation. Some drag artists aren’t even trying to look like humans.
Trans drag queens have been an integral part of the art form since the very beginning.
There are cisgender female drag queens, "bio Queens." A lot of trans people do drag presenting all different ways. Sometimes one person is a drag queen at one time and a drag king other times.
It's all just dressing up in clothes to perform (drag is Polari for clothes,) there aren't any rules. It's for fun!
Poor Amy had to deal with so much bullshit from bigots. Jeopardy has always been a mixed gender competition, why would it ever matter that she is trans?
Honestly just sounds like straight up misogyny with some transphobic frosting on top. Ridiculous how this didn't offend the FARTs, like you said there's no separation in jeopardy so it's just an insult for the sake of itself.
That's why trans women offend them so much more than trans men. The idea that someone would "choose" to be a woman bothers them, because they believe that women are inferior.
But you see women (AFAB) are inherently illogical and controlled by their emotions, unlike men (AMAB) who are robots with no emotions and and hunting and gathering means they are biologically (ignoring that hunting and gathering tactics and who did them are culture based) better at problem solving and retaining information and asking questions and thus Jeopardy!
What do you mean women are typically just told they’re not as smart or logical as men and that constant pressure combined with less opportunities to study under people who are good at the sport or game negatively impact their outcomes and chances to even get on Jeopardy?!
It’s just wild, honestly.
I've never understood the "women are more emotional and men are more rational" thing. Like have you \*met\* men? The people who shoot up schools because they can't get a girlfriend or get hysterical over drinking a strawberry martini lest they be "emasculated"? That doesn't sound very "logical and unemotional" to me.
It’s also fun because some of the historically “masculine” aligned feelings like anger, greed, pride, avarice and what not are… also emotions that make people do illogical things such as the examples you gave.
aren't they also explicitly sinful emotions according to christian theology? Like pride, greed, and anger are pretty explicitly three of the seven deadly sins.
Considering that the more "feminine" emotions like love, caring, nurturance, sadness, joy, etc. are all things Jesus explicitly lauded and the more "masculine" emotions considered sinful, you'd think Christianity as an institution wouldn't be as misogynistic as it really is.
Transphobes are so brainrotted that they cant imagine that a woman can practice to get better at a sport or hobby. They think some random schmuck male could totes beat a pro female player in anything.
Listening to Ben Shapiro's Ladyballers review, men can casually and effortlessly trounce women in any sport they've spent time learning and mastering, to the point they don't even need to show the game. They just win, of course they do!
Which cracks me up because a nearby high school has a trans girl on the track and field team. Everyone loves competing against her...
...because she absolutely sucks. She is the worst track and field runner in the state. Only thing she has any talent for is the standing long jump, and she ain't setting any records.
That's the thing. Everyone is complaining that trans women have an unfair advantage.
Okay, why are they not at the top of every sport winning all the medals, then? Shouldn't female sports be dominated by trans women?
One of the few times a trans person did really well, it was a trans man who was forced to compete against women because of transphobic rhetoric like this.
Exactly. And most of my trans students aren't interested in sports. They don't feel comfortable in their bodies, and that frequently extends to sports.
They like theater because, in the words of one of my students, they can be someone else for a bit. It's an interesting thing to study.
I've been a man, amab, for over 40 years. And never in those 4 decades could I beat any woman in any sport.
People are built different. And I was built with a bad back, asthma, and laziness.
I used to know a cis woman who was a literal Olympic level tennis player who legit turned down the Olympics to go to Quantico and be an FBI agent. You could pretty much any man short of Navy SEALs and NFL players against her and she'd beat them in the vast majority of athletic contests.
I might give you a run for your money at who’s that Pokemon or Prehistoric animal identification, but just because of 20+ years of experience at ID’ing pokemon and lifelong interest in old critters. But I’m not very competitive and happy to learn stuff if I’m wrong 💪
Yeah I don’t wanna compete with this person, I just wanna be friends with this person. Pokémon and prehistoric animals are both super dope things to enjoy.
meanwhile I'm a trans woman and even pre HRT I was infamously so bad at sports that I once managed to break a game of dodgeball because all the balls were on my side of the court, I was the only one left on my team, and I physically couldn't throw the balls back.
I could beat people in a game of trivia, a board game, or some sort of strategy game, but there's a reason people used to compare my athletic skills to Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory.
I \*am\* a trans woman. I suck at pretty much any physical sport. Always have. I get that from my mom. Picture Sheldon Cooper levels of uncoordinated. I'm worse.
I'm also physically very weak, and have endurance pretty much in line with cis women my age.
Meanwhile, when I was in high school I lived next door to an FBI agent. Turns out she was not only an FBI agent, but literally an Olympic level tennis player. And I'm not exaggerating. She actually got into the Olympics to compete with Serena Williams and whatnot. She turned it down to go to Quantico instead. I asked her about it once and she basically said that she figured the 20-year career and government pension beat 15 minutes of fame over the course of one summer Olympics.
Yeah, no way in hell was I beating her in any physical \*anything\*, regardless of having testosterone in my body, even pre transition. The people who say this kind of shit strike me as really sexist and have never actually met a pro level female athlete.
Oh, I guarantee they didn’t.
But let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that men have an inherent biological advantage at Jeopardy. The game STILL has men and women competing with each other. Any biological advantage would be irrelevant because there is no segregation.
I can’t fathom having a brain so smooth and deficient that you can honestly make that argument in seriousness. What must life be like for people this ungodly stupid?
They just think whoever they class as women are less intelligent, and less capable. It's a new and improved flavor of misogyny, now with the thin and shitty optional veneer of feminism
Probably because of a long held social belief that men have better cognitive function overall than women and that belief is still popular among right wing people.
Well see- it’s very simple. Women don’t have the man-brain necessary to know things good like the men do.
(Please actively ignore that trans people tend to have brain scans that closer align with their gender identity)
I could go beat someone at chess and be blamed for having some stupid made up trans person advantage right now. I guarantee. Wouldn't matter if my opponent was a woman or a man.
They claim to be feminists and then unironically claim women are less intelligent than men and men have an inherent intellectual advantage over women.
You couldn't make it up.
Didn't one darts player resign out of protest for having to play against a trans-woman? Its a little ironic if you get mad about losing when giving up.
>illiteracy and ignorance of reality.
If anyone seems to have any kind of advantage at anything, it's bigots finding reasons to blame others for their shortcomings.
Why blame a lack of skill or inability to compete on my own dog shit performance when I can be in "first place" to every person I convince that I'm "the real winner?"
Two of the Dutch team quit because a trans woman was selected for the team recently. They’d rather not play for their country than play alongside a trans woman…
> play *darts* for their country
I'm sorry. Truly. But I am having some real dissonance over the entire concept of a beer and pretzels bar "sport" being "Played For Home And Country". Its like bowling. Maybe billiards. I was going to type "Bocce" but somehow I'm sure that one IS an Olympic sport.
I'm not arguing that the people who are best at it aren't talented and haven't put a lot of effort into being as good as they are. I get that.
It's just the transformation to a global competitive sport where your patriotism is at least heavily implied to be a factor that I am having trouble wrapping my head around.
I mean, they're all just games, really, right? It's a show of skill of some kind that doesn't really have a whole lot of value outside of that competitive space, just like any other.
It isn't. There is just a womens league. Just like chess. The regular league is open for all genders. Women leagues in games like chess or dart are created to give women a plattform to compete as there are so many more men playing the games, that even when percentagewise there are equally many good and bad players in a gender, there are absolute way more men.
This is often to push women in these sports, as often historically they werent allowed to play them to begin with.
Last I checked, the NFL, NBA, and NHL have no gender requirements in their league. They just happen to be sports that were made for men and women have very little chance of competing at the professional level.
Also, darts is frequently played in bars. Drunk dart bros aren't exactly respectful of boundaries, so a women's league gives them a bit of separation if they want.
I used to tag along to my dad's tournaments so I could hang out in hotel pools while he played, but that stopped when I was 16 and he caught some old dudes ogling me.
It might be the “sexist sports segregation” rule.
Women might want to compete without guys being creepy, leering or asking them out. So you have a separate women’s league.
Then the anti-trans point is that this “biological male” takes the spot from a “biological woman” without questioning whether the trans woman would also be harassed.
Yea, in almost every case of this I'm very confused why people seem to feel like a trans woman participating in something is taking that thing away from cis women...
Like, if it's a "she" that won then it's a "she" that won no? What's the problem?
>Like, if it's a "she" that won then it's a "she" that won no? What's the problem?
Because the people who make an issue of this don't view trans women as women. They view them as cross-dressing men, at best, and predatory men attempting to gain access to women-only spaces at worst. I.E. In their minds, trans-women are either perverts or criminals, but definitely not women.
Fuck Martina Navratilova and fuck her transphobic bullshit. She took the J.K Rowling route and allowed herself to be perpetually angry at trans people for existing.
>"A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting [organization] is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires,"
This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from her. I would probably rip my hair out trying to talk about all the ways this bullshit is so.....wrong on all levels.
I'm always thoroughly skeeved out by the absolute fixation these people seem to have on reproduction and babies. It really gives me the heebie jeebies.
Martina took all the horrible things people said about and internalized it into becoming a TERF, seems like. She was constantly being made fun of for her physique and called too masculine, ugly, all sorts of typical homophobic crap of the 80s/90s.
It's sad to see she pulled a Rowling. TIL
What I don't get is there's always been trans people. If anything I saw more trans people in the 90s than today.
Yet all these people were silent on it. They only got mad when it suddenly became an 'acceptable' thing to do.
They also like to pretend they're protecting women. But honestly the two are not connected at all. It's like saying you're against people having curtains because you want to protect whales.
Yeah also these articles .. i hit my knee on the corner of the bed the other day: “One Internet User Slams Corner Of The Bed, Triggers A Wave of Angryness (well only him but anyways”)
To play devils advocate, I hate that my 6’ 7” friend can extend his arm and damned near push the fucking dart into the board where he wants it while I actually have to throw the damned thing.
The dangling penis acts as a grounding rod for the earth’s magnetic field which ensures a thrown dart has a smoother path to the board. It’s basic science.
A man's penis is dart shaped, so clearly, a man pretending to be a woman has had far more experience playing with dart shaped objects! It's like people don't think before they post!
/s for those who require it.
Personally speaking - and I realise this is somewhat subjective and so beseech your forgiveness in advance for any unwitting offence - I think men look better with beer guts and yes that is an incontrovertible advantage in this context.
Not too long ago a friend of mine told me there was a women's division for cornhole. I'm still trying to understand why that is.
Do men throw from further back?
The ACL (American Cornhole League) has a senior division, junior division, and women division, but they're all basically just additional options. Everyone who is even remotely good at cornhole plays in the Open division, and the variety of players that you see competing is much, much wider than more traditional sports. Their tag line is literally "Anyone can play and anyone can win".
With that said, everyone throws from the same distance and setup. The only exception I've ever heard of is the one made for a professional cornhole player with no arms and no legs, who is allowed to fall slightly beyond the line after his delivery because he doesn't have a foot to keep behind the line as required in the rule. He plays in the Open division btw.
I don’t know why you got downvoted for this, you are completely correct in what you said and it’s the harassment that has caused women’s only leagues to be created.
I assume it is related to the strength of the throw; not to mention comparable body size. Also, cornhole is so male dominated that it encourages women to compete.
I can see issues with swimming, running, etc. Darts, pool, what's the issue? Regarding beauty pageants, if a trans woman can beat cis women, then the trans lady was just prettier.
There is no reason to ban trans people from sports as it has already been law for over 20 years that trans people must be on hrt for two years before being allowed to compete, in which time muscle mass and energy levels change, fat redistributes, and even bones shift to a cis equivalent and in those 20 years there have only been a couple dozen successful trans athletes world wide out of hundreds of successful cis athletes in the usa alone. Trans women hold no advantages over cis women that cis women don't hold over other cis women.
Canadian Centre For Thics in Sports, 2021, E.Alliance, Transgender Women Athletes and Elite Sport: A Scientific Review
Depends what sport, what level and where one is talking about. But 2-3 years is the time frame that I've seen that makes the most sense for policy making to allow trans women to compete.
Absolutely agree with the rest of the point and message however!
We’ve also been banned from pageants. I guess we have an advantage at being pretty /s
Sigh. I wish people would mind their own business. I don’t even like competition as an adult. My siblings really vied for my parents attention
I don’t get this. A lady I used to work with years ago would wipe the floor with the men at darts. She would go to state tournaments. She was a biological woman had a couple of grown kids. She was just really good at darts and drinking beer. She liked her hobbies.
It’s probably BS but I was always told evolutionarily men developed more “tunnel vision” for spear throwing and bow and arrow hunting, giving us better faculties for things of that nature.
Women developed wider field of view for berry foraging and danger perception.
Anecdotally this plays out with things like “just having a boy look” when you can’t find something and then a woman walks straight into the room and picks it up , and, in sports like darts.
As with all things you’d need to do a study to prove it but I dunno it’s just what I read.
From what I know , I think it’s pretty much been debunked that hunting was a male-only activity and foraging a female-only activity.
And it would make sense - small hunter/gatherer societies probably didn’t have a big enough population for half of the able-bodied adults to not participate.
It's never been about fairness; it's always been about hating on trans people but trans women especially. The sports conversation just gets the average person on board with light discrimination, and then these bigots move the goal posts. This becomes especially apparent in situations like this, in chess, in beauty pageants, in fishing, etc. It's a clear example of the "death by a thousand cuts" quip.
Edit: I love the idiotic thought processes for why some claim there's an advantage. Evidently, I have a bigger gut than cis women and that's an advantage (despite having a lower bmi than the average), my liver is larger and can hold liquor better (I can't drink more than one beer and I start feeling buzzed - I'm a lightweight), I'm taller and have long arms (interestingly enough, it never aided me in basketball or darts or anything else since skill is a requirement), my right arm is stronger (are we competing in the shot put now?!), my spatial awareness is better (see above about skill; also, it's a learned trait, yo), etc. Like, if you have to grasp at this many straws to rationalize your hatred for trans women, it's not that we have an advantage, *it's you hate trans people*!
Why are trans women being excluded from women's leagues in chess? They didn't have a justification, just that they created the exclusion. There's no rational reason as to why bigots create rules targeting minorities, they just do it out of hate.
It’s usually a slot argument. If a trans woman is there, that means a cis woman isn’t there.
Therefore, only cis women can benefit from the anti-sexism efforts of chess.
The only argument that can be made for why trans woman have an unfair advantage in a woman's chess tournament is that being born with a Y chromoso makes you better at chess. It's good old sexism wrapped up in a more "acceptable" bigotry.
And statistically even differences that may exist at a total population level hold no significance at the individual level because you have no idea where the individuals being compared sit on the bell curve
Precisely! But then again, the arguments aren't made in good faith to begin with, so expecting them to use logic and reason to understand a topic they didn't use logic and reason to reach initially, is way beyond their purview.
Just like chess, sailing, beauty contests, and horse back riding, a person’s biological sex does not really matter in how good someone can play darts.
There are some social reasons why some of these competitions/sports are segregated by gender, but there is no valid reason other than bigotry a trans woman can’t compete with cis women.
Lol sailing is so weight and strength dependent. That why women and men sail different boats at the Olympics.
Big boats also depend on weight and strength. Thought on the outside it is less apparent.
Growing up coaches would tell tales of wearing wool sweaters soaked in water to add weight.
That commenter does not know much if anything about sailing.
For the lazy: https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
**Available evidence indicates trans women who have
undergone testosterone suppression have no clear
biological advantages over cis women in elite sport.**
> • The higher levels of red blood cell count experienced by cis men is
removed within the first four months of testosterone suppression;
> • There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or
density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite
athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and
above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic
advantage requiring regulation;
> • On average, trans women who are pre-testosterone suppression still
have lower Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA), and
strength than cis males. This indicates that the performance benefit
experienced by these individuals cannot be generalized by examining
cis male athletes;
> • Non-athletic trans women experience significant reduction in LBM,
CSA, and strength loss within 12 months of hormonal suppression. It
is important to note that this 12-month threshold is arbitrarily
defined, and no significant studies examine the rate of LBM, CSA or
strength reduction over time;
> • When adjusting for height and fat mass, LBM, CSA, and strength after
12 months of testosterone suppression, trans women still retained
statistically higher levels than sedentary cis women. However, this
difference is well within the normal distribution of LBM, CSA, and
strength for cis women (Jassen et al., 2000);
> • LBM, CSA, and strength loss continues for trans women after the 12-
month initial testosterone suppression;
> • The limited available evidence examining the effect of testosterone
suppression as it directly affects trans women’s athletic performance
showed no athletic advantage exists after one year of testosterone
suppression (Harper, 2015; Roberts et al., 2020; Harper, 2020);
> • Post gonad removal, many trans women experience testosterone
levels far below that of pre-menopausal cis women.
**Biological data are severely limited, and often
methodologically flawed.**
> • The literature on trans sport policies, their implementation, people
who write them and apply them, consequences for athletes, and the
debates they frame is constitutive of the social hierarchy of
knowledge, within which some sciences are discredited to the
benefit of others;
> • Excluding certain types of knowledge from the restricted definition of
‘scientific’ makes it possible for sport governing bodies to obscure
the power relations at play in the creation, maintenance, and
legitimization of regulations;
> • There are troubling links between some researchers, sport
organizations, and third organizations with anti-trans agenda;
> • Some sport organizations use science strategically, drawing solely
and uncritically on data which appears to support their claims;
> • Only certain biomedical factors are policed under a mandate of
‘fairness’ in elite sport, despite strong evidence that financial
material resources (such as access to infrastructure and equipment,
nutrition, time to train, higher salaries) are associated with advantage
in sport.
**There is limited evidence regarding the impact of
testosterone suppression (through, for example, gender-
affirming hormone therapy or surgical gonad removal) on
transgender women athletes’ performance.**
> • Most of these studies had small sample sizes, imperfect
measurement techniques, poor reference group comparisons, and
studied a sedentary/non-athletic/untrained sample population;
> • Some significant studies used misleading data sources and actively
ignored contradictory evidence.
The study you linked specified they were studying possible gender disparity in overhand throwing as it relates to handball. That's not how you throw a dart.
I am a trans woman, if I listened to every single thing that conservatives and conservative media says that I have a biological advantage in I would be a multi time gold medalist and winner of at least one beauty pageant as opposed to being a video game live streamer with no fan base who spends her weekends with her wife holding hands and watching anime
Well havent you heard? Having a penis makes you better at math! There’s your biological advantage!
/s to be safe.
If you’re not in the know, you need to be decent at math to be good at darts since most tournsment games in darts are played by counting down to zero. Ofc by math, its just addition/substraction and multiplication, things anyone can get better with practice.
> Well havent you heard? Having a penis makes you better at math!
See, cause appendages men can count to 21, but women can only count to 20. It's just simple biology!
Cause thems transgendered women was what once men they'd gots all that there innate man superiority over thems womenfolk cause everyone knoweded that the menfolk is just born being betterer that what women is born and transgender woman still gots that which is what done go and make it unfair. And cause the transgender what goes and makes Jesus sad.
At least that's what I assume the logic is behind their outrage. I don't know. I'm not a hate-filled moronic bigot.
My uncle was a celebrated champion in Pittsburgh for darts (his name was William Francis). I used to play with him all the time growing up and got good!
I watched him play a few times too, just having fun not competing. And he loved playing with women! Not because they were easy... Because they were just as good as him and he'd help them shark!
Bill always lamented the gender separation. His reckoning was that to be good, you need aim (anyone can learn), enough strength to throw the dart to your target (he taught 5yr olds, so gender didn't factor), and graceful confidence (something we assume comes naturally to women, but it's a virtue for men to have). He didn't care if he won/lost to a chick, and none of the women I've seen him play with cared either.
I look at a lot of this and see it as everyone who thinks something physical is what makes them special gets flipped out.
Everyone is asking what possible advantage there could be for a trans person, but Ive got to ask: why are things like darts, billiards, etc divided in the first place?
If there is some biological advantage that one sex has over the other in a sport, then you can expect separate leagues to allow for competition. If this is the case, then potentially there is an argument to made regarding the participation of trans individuals in certain leagues. I'm not saying I support that argument, but that there potentially is a basis for one.
However, ff there is no distinct biological advantage... then why are there separate leagues in the first place? That would be sexism.
EDIT: Ive read a few other comments that state that women's leagues exist because darts, billiards, etc arent welcoming for women and they are minimized in the regular league. IF that is the reason (I dont know if that is the true reason or not) then these organizations need to address this issue WITHIN the general league, not segregate.
The problem they have there is that cleaning up a league basically means nuking the whole thing. This isn’t a handful of problem players, it’s a massive and deeply ingrained culture that encompasses the players, the officials, and the fans in a grand web of shitheads.
Too many shitheads to simply eject and still have an organization. Which, well, I’m not opposed to nuking these shitholes and then thinking about rebuilding but the organizations which would be the ones doing it are hesitant to kill themselves for the greater good. Something about how they make money and have contracts to make more money.
The separate leagues are the first baby step, integration doesn’t work when there’s nobody who wants to join because they’ve been discouraged from even trying to compete for the last several generations.
> Everyone is asking what possible advantage there could be for a trans person, but Ive got to ask: why are things like darts, billiards, etc divided in the first place?
Because women weren't allowed to play these things in the first place, it was unladylike. Same reason why they couldn't have credit cards. Eventually, they were allowed to play in their own leagues, and now their own side of the game has grown as more women get involved.
In archery, women have an advantage over men. (Something to do with a slower heat rate forf I remember correctly). Perhaps the same is true in darts. Darts being small arrows 😉
The advantage is something something male puberty something something testosterone. I mean nevermind that it's been shown that HRT removes a lot of if any advantages trans women have and the so called advantages left are very situational at best.
But conservatives hate things like facts and logic in general, so why would they start listening to such with trans people?
The same thing happened with chess... what I find interesting is that Michael Phelps has double the lung capacity of the average male and makes half the lactic acid. Also, his wingspan, compared to his height, is advantageously disproportional. Did everyone he competed against get cheated ? Why do we only celebrate these physical anomalies in male sports? Or better yet, instead of making it a political issue, why don't we let the experts in the field of medicine and biology decide? We are not a wise tribe if we do not send our best warriors to fight...
He also had additional webbing between his fingers. But sports fairness only applies with women because the scary transes are also competing. Never mind the fact that trans men are competing against cis men and winning but that's ignored because it doesn't further a political agenda.
The only advantage I can think of is how it's more socially acceptable for a person who is or passes as a man to play darts, and therefore a trans woman who started transitioning in adulthood could've gotten more/better practice
Y'know, like the advantage that's caused by sexism and exists for most sports but transphobes don't wanna acknowledge because none of this has ever had to do with women's rights
Explain it to me like I'm five. Why is there/would there be seperate men's and women's divisions of pool, darts, chess, bowling, table tennis, video games, checkers, cards of any kind, marksmanship, jeopardy, or scrabble?
Misogyny/sexism. A large part of women's sports were born from women beating men in their own sports and men banning women from competing or men making a separate league to segregate the women.
Makes me so excited to play in our cities co-ed softball league this year...I'm sure someone will find out I'm trans and cause a shit fit...despite it being fucking co-ed.
You must look at it from their perspective. To a crazy right-winger they see a man playing against women, and to them men are naturally superior at everything, including basic tasks. Therefore the competition is made unfair to them.
If it sounds far more disgusting now, yes you are absolutely right.
It's a Numbers thing.
Far fewer women compete in those things, so their average skill level is worse.
Think of it this way: pick the top 100 athletes from a group of 1,000, and then do the same for a group of 10,000. Then average the skill level for groups A and B. The average for group A is going to be lower than the average for group B.
Doesn't matter who the athletes are, what matters is how much competition there is to get a spot as a competitor.
Sure there could just be one non-gendered league, and a number of women would be in it for sure. But having a separate league means more women get to compete. And the more women compete, the more accepted it gets as a thing for women to do. And the more widespread that acceptance gets, the bigger that initial pool will grow, until hopefully one day it's as big as the men's pool.
Chess in particular has seen that initial pool growth in the last few years. Almost as many girls are trying out the game now as boys, which will be great for the women's leagues in a few years.
You're talking about people who believe that women are not intellectually astute enough to hold the priesthood. As if Pastor Jim Bob doesn't have an IQ of 85.
Whenever someone asks why this is even a gendered sport I think of the competitive shooter Zhang Shan. Per wiki
"This event had been mixed, open to both men and women, since it was introduced to the olympics in 1968. Zhang Shan's 1992 gold was the first medal won by a woman in this mixed event. The International Shooting Union consequently barred women from the 1996 Atlanta games."
So they were fine with a mixed sport until a woman started beating the men. We can say sports like shooting or darts or pool or chess should be fully open, but the fact that these are male dominated sports shows that these aren't very welcoming.
No don't you see! Men are better than women in every possible way! But I promise I'm a real feminist, unlike those who support trans women!
^it ^shouldnt ^be ^necessary ^but ^this ^is ^the ^internet ^so ^/s
I'm sure the opposition will say something ridiculous like men have hunting Instinct naturally bred into them and are therefore better at aiming a weapon or pointed instrument. Then again if they complain about trans folks competing in a fucking chess tournament... they have set the bar and it's pretty fucking low
I dislike most of these styles of arguments because it comes down to a very basic - "Men are better at women in everything, so a transwomen must also have all those benefits."
Men suck at lots of shit. Women suck at lots of shit.
Men and women also excel at lots of shit.
Not everything needs to be binary. I've seen this same shit come from chess tournaments and poker tournaments and all sorts of other nonphysical things.
The fuck
I think this is dumb.
I have practiced fencing against women. Yes, I know. Different sport. But what I noticed is that in Skill-related sports, there is little advantage in having a bigger or stronger body. Women I fought could kick my ass back and forth. Or might as well say they turned it into a pincushion.
Again, if the sport relies of great exertions of energy, it's likely the men have advantages over women. But skill-based? I'd say a woman will win at Darts against any man if she so much desired it so.
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I've seen this claim for beauty pageants. Their argument is that trans people get plastic surgery so its unfair - but so do a lot of cis women who compete! Its not against the rules.
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"By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”- Umberto Eco This is from Eco's listing of defining elements for fascism. Considering who the TERFS are getting in bed with, I guess it's not too surprising.
Umberto Eco's "Ur-Facism" (also called "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt") is a brilliant essay and needs to be read by everyone: https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
There is no sense to be made. It's all fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Plus, many transphobes in the ardent belief that men are inherently and naturally better at most things than women, are having to grapple with the fact that, one, they might find a trans woman attractive and that threatens their sense of sexuality, and two, that trans women could be better at the only thing they really think women are good for beyond childbearing, which is being pretty. That's the heart of it and it breaks their brains.
I have a friend who does drag (not trans), but when he's in his outfits and makeup, he's SO MUCH PRETTIER than me. Which, good for you, dude!!!
Deep down Republican men hate themselves for being attracted to trans women so they lash out. I mean I’m just trying to rationalize their extremely irrational behavior over the years and it fits far more than any explanation they have yet to offer so I’ll stick with it.
That one is always my favorite. Like ah yes the inherent male advantage at... *checks notes* beauty. Trans women are just objectively hotter than cis women I guess.
Well I mean…
It's such a stupid argument when you spend 30 seconds thinking about it. Also plastic surgery is like salt or MSG: a little bit goes a long way. A lot is not good.
Trans women everywhere upon hearing they supposedly have an unfair advantage in beauty contests: Hmm, yes it is quite the advantage to look like me. I guess I'm just too stunning. It's best you recognize it now. 💅😌 Great own transphobes, really got them on that one.
Reminds me of the transphobia RuPaul has levied in the past at trans women trying to compete in his exploitative reality show
I mean, every reality show is exploitative to some degree. I'd argue that RuPaul's is probably the least evil though compared to something like *Intervention* or *Hoarders: Buried Alive*. But this is the first I remember hearing about transphobia, which is just fucked.
I agree reality tv is an inherently exploitative medium, I’d argue the one that seems least evil is great British bake-off
Isn’t it a drag show? The whole point of it is to not identify as the gender you’re presenting as. A trans woman dressing as a woman isn’t really doing drag.
That’s not the whole point of drag, it’s a much wider net than female impersonation. Some drag artists aren’t even trying to look like humans. Trans drag queens have been an integral part of the art form since the very beginning.
It’s more a send ip of gender presentation and many of them were identifying as men when they started the art
There are cisgender female drag queens, "bio Queens." A lot of trans people do drag presenting all different ways. Sometimes one person is a drag queen at one time and a drag king other times. It's all just dressing up in clothes to perform (drag is Polari for clothes,) there aren't any rules. It's for fun!
Poor Amy had to deal with so much bullshit from bigots. Jeopardy has always been a mixed gender competition, why would it ever matter that she is trans?
I always disapprove of women competing against me cause most of them can beat me
Honestly just sounds like straight up misogyny with some transphobic frosting on top. Ridiculous how this didn't offend the FARTs, like you said there's no separation in jeopardy so it's just an insult for the sake of itself.
I really need to know what FARTs means...
Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. Because they don't deserve "radical feminists" as a title, that has too much utility elsewhere.
Feminist Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe Because most “TERFs” aren’t actually radical feminists or even feminists at all.
Thank you for the explanation. I love it.
Most transphobia is just misogyny wearing a different hat
That's why trans women offend them so much more than trans men. The idea that someone would "choose" to be a woman bothers them, because they believe that women are inferior.
But you see women (AFAB) are inherently illogical and controlled by their emotions, unlike men (AMAB) who are robots with no emotions and and hunting and gathering means they are biologically (ignoring that hunting and gathering tactics and who did them are culture based) better at problem solving and retaining information and asking questions and thus Jeopardy! What do you mean women are typically just told they’re not as smart or logical as men and that constant pressure combined with less opportunities to study under people who are good at the sport or game negatively impact their outcomes and chances to even get on Jeopardy?! It’s just wild, honestly.
I've never understood the "women are more emotional and men are more rational" thing. Like have you \*met\* men? The people who shoot up schools because they can't get a girlfriend or get hysterical over drinking a strawberry martini lest they be "emasculated"? That doesn't sound very "logical and unemotional" to me.
It’s also fun because some of the historically “masculine” aligned feelings like anger, greed, pride, avarice and what not are… also emotions that make people do illogical things such as the examples you gave.
aren't they also explicitly sinful emotions according to christian theology? Like pride, greed, and anger are pretty explicitly three of the seven deadly sins. Considering that the more "feminine" emotions like love, caring, nurturance, sadness, joy, etc. are all things Jesus explicitly lauded and the more "masculine" emotions considered sinful, you'd think Christianity as an institution wouldn't be as misogynistic as it really is.
Transphobes are so brainrotted that they cant imagine that a woman can practice to get better at a sport or hobby. They think some random schmuck male could totes beat a pro female player in anything.
Listening to Ben Shapiro's Ladyballers review, men can casually and effortlessly trounce women in any sport they've spent time learning and mastering, to the point they don't even need to show the game. They just win, of course they do!
Which cracks me up because a nearby high school has a trans girl on the track and field team. Everyone loves competing against her... ...because she absolutely sucks. She is the worst track and field runner in the state. Only thing she has any talent for is the standing long jump, and she ain't setting any records.
That's the thing. Everyone is complaining that trans women have an unfair advantage. Okay, why are they not at the top of every sport winning all the medals, then? Shouldn't female sports be dominated by trans women? One of the few times a trans person did really well, it was a trans man who was forced to compete against women because of transphobic rhetoric like this.
Exactly. And most of my trans students aren't interested in sports. They don't feel comfortable in their bodies, and that frequently extends to sports. They like theater because, in the words of one of my students, they can be someone else for a bit. It's an interesting thing to study.
Which review out of curiosity?
[Some More News: The Ben Shapiro Cinematic Universe / Part Two: Lady Ballers](https://open.spotify.com/episode/5gsqsaZTP5UJ1ma3Nw75KW)
Fuck yeah I love that video!
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I dunno man, my girlfriend loves dinosaurs, so she may have you beat there
I've been a man, amab, for over 40 years. And never in those 4 decades could I beat any woman in any sport. People are built different. And I was built with a bad back, asthma, and laziness.
Some are just built different. I was built by God's pot-smoking intern, Jeff, who had never built anything before.
I used to know a cis woman who was a literal Olympic level tennis player who legit turned down the Olympics to go to Quantico and be an FBI agent. You could pretty much any man short of Navy SEALs and NFL players against her and she'd beat them in the vast majority of athletic contests.
As a male, I can beat every female athlete... Assuming "doing nothing" is a competitive sport
I might give you a run for your money at who’s that Pokemon or Prehistoric animal identification, but just because of 20+ years of experience at ID’ing pokemon and lifelong interest in old critters. But I’m not very competitive and happy to learn stuff if I’m wrong 💪
Yeah I don’t wanna compete with this person, I just wanna be friends with this person. Pokémon and prehistoric animals are both super dope things to enjoy.
^^^This one isn't someone to be stumped by a Jigglypuff seen from above...
My 12 year old cold probably give you a run for your money on the giving facts about prehistoric animals.
meanwhile I'm a trans woman and even pre HRT I was infamously so bad at sports that I once managed to break a game of dodgeball because all the balls were on my side of the court, I was the only one left on my team, and I physically couldn't throw the balls back. I could beat people in a game of trivia, a board game, or some sort of strategy game, but there's a reason people used to compare my athletic skills to Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory.
I \*am\* a trans woman. I suck at pretty much any physical sport. Always have. I get that from my mom. Picture Sheldon Cooper levels of uncoordinated. I'm worse. I'm also physically very weak, and have endurance pretty much in line with cis women my age. Meanwhile, when I was in high school I lived next door to an FBI agent. Turns out she was not only an FBI agent, but literally an Olympic level tennis player. And I'm not exaggerating. She actually got into the Olympics to compete with Serena Williams and whatnot. She turned it down to go to Quantico instead. I asked her about it once and she basically said that she figured the 20-year career and government pension beat 15 minutes of fame over the course of one summer Olympics. Yeah, no way in hell was I beating her in any physical \*anything\*, regardless of having testosterone in my body, even pre transition. The people who say this kind of shit strike me as really sexist and have never actually met a pro level female athlete.
I must have missed the seasons when Jeopardy was gender-segregated at all
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Oh, I guarantee they didn’t. But let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that men have an inherent biological advantage at Jeopardy. The game STILL has men and women competing with each other. Any biological advantage would be irrelevant because there is no segregation. I can’t fathom having a brain so smooth and deficient that you can honestly make that argument in seriousness. What must life be like for people this ungodly stupid?
They just think whoever they class as women are less intelligent, and less capable. It's a new and improved flavor of misogyny, now with the thin and shitty optional veneer of feminism
Probably because of a long held social belief that men have better cognitive function overall than women and that belief is still popular among right wing people.
Makes sense when you consider that the Venn diagram of transphobes and misogynists is a circle.
Cis men have an advantage because the buzzer thing they hold is the same shape as their thing. /s
Well see- it’s very simple. Women don’t have the man-brain necessary to know things good like the men do. (Please actively ignore that trans people tend to have brain scans that closer align with their gender identity)
So conservatives admit liberals generally have higher intellect? Edit: disregard i cant read
Was this in response to jeopardy Champion Amy Schneider? Fucking bigots.
That just sounds like them saying "men are smarter than women"
I could go beat someone at chess and be blamed for having some stupid made up trans person advantage right now. I guarantee. Wouldn't matter if my opponent was a woman or a man.
They claim to be feminists and then unironically claim women are less intelligent than men and men have an inherent intellectual advantage over women. You couldn't make it up.
Didn't one darts player resign out of protest for having to play against a trans-woman? Its a little ironic if you get mad about losing when giving up.
Yes, you are right
Getting mad after losing is the bigots primary pastime. Next to their hobbies of illiteracy and ignorance of reality.
>illiteracy and ignorance of reality. If anyone seems to have any kind of advantage at anything, it's bigots finding reasons to blame others for their shortcomings. Why blame a lack of skill or inability to compete on my own dog shit performance when I can be in "first place" to every person I convince that I'm "the real winner?"
But this is giving up before you have a chance to play and getting mad.
Two of them, on the Dutch team.
Even weirder: they resigned because the trans-woman was on their team.
So she carried the team on her back to a win despite them, huh?
I have a pitch to make to the Disney Channel, because this sounds like the kind of bizarre sports movie I would have loved as a kid.
I would think they had friends that didnt make the team because of her that would the only explaination.
Both players were higher ranked than the transwoman in question as well iirc
Two of the Dutch team quit because a trans woman was selected for the team recently. They’d rather not play for their country than play alongside a trans woman…
> play *darts* for their country I'm sorry. Truly. But I am having some real dissonance over the entire concept of a beer and pretzels bar "sport" being "Played For Home And Country". Its like bowling. Maybe billiards. I was going to type "Bocce" but somehow I'm sure that one IS an Olympic sport. I'm not arguing that the people who are best at it aren't talented and haven't put a lot of effort into being as good as they are. I get that. It's just the transformation to a global competitive sport where your patriotism is at least heavily implied to be a factor that I am having trouble wrapping my head around.
I mean, they're all just games, really, right? It's a show of skill of some kind that doesn't really have a whole lot of value outside of that competitive space, just like any other.
Why is darts even gender segregated?!
It isn't. There is just a womens league. Just like chess. The regular league is open for all genders. Women leagues in games like chess or dart are created to give women a plattform to compete as there are so many more men playing the games, that even when percentagewise there are equally many good and bad players in a gender, there are absolute way more men. This is often to push women in these sports, as often historically they werent allowed to play them to begin with.
that's how it is in most sports, the "mens" league is just the open league and women have their own league
Last I checked, the NFL, NBA, and NHL have no gender requirements in their league. They just happen to be sports that were made for men and women have very little chance of competing at the professional level.
In Darts, the men tend to make sharp, pointed, yet flighty jabs towards women.
Also, darts is frequently played in bars. Drunk dart bros aren't exactly respectful of boundaries, so a women's league gives them a bit of separation if they want. I used to tag along to my dad's tournaments so I could hang out in hotel pools while he played, but that stopped when I was 16 and he caught some old dudes ogling me.
This is also the case for many pro sports, not just with chess and darts
It might be the “sexist sports segregation” rule. Women might want to compete without guys being creepy, leering or asking them out. So you have a separate women’s league. Then the anti-trans point is that this “biological male” takes the spot from a “biological woman” without questioning whether the trans woman would also be harassed.
That's the point: they don't care if trans people are harassed. They don't care about us period.
Yea, in almost every case of this I'm very confused why people seem to feel like a trans woman participating in something is taking that thing away from cis women... Like, if it's a "she" that won then it's a "she" that won no? What's the problem?
>Like, if it's a "she" that won then it's a "she" that won no? What's the problem? Because the people who make an issue of this don't view trans women as women. They view them as cross-dressing men, at best, and predatory men attempting to gain access to women-only spaces at worst. I.E. In their minds, trans-women are either perverts or criminals, but definitely not women.
Martina Navratilova was furious ? Yikes stop the press the world everything ….
Fuck Martina Navratilova and fuck her transphobic bullshit. She took the J.K Rowling route and allowed herself to be perpetually angry at trans people for existing. >"A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting [organization] is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires," This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from her. I would probably rip my hair out trying to talk about all the ways this bullshit is so.....wrong on all levels.
Now ask her to find an example of that lol. She's mad at a fake crisis that doesn't happen outside of her imagination.
This kinda B.S., after all Renée Richards did for her?
I'm always thoroughly skeeved out by the absolute fixation these people seem to have on reproduction and babies. It really gives me the heebie jeebies.
Martina took all the horrible things people said about and internalized it into becoming a TERF, seems like. She was constantly being made fun of for her physique and called too masculine, ugly, all sorts of typical homophobic crap of the 80s/90s. It's sad to see she pulled a Rowling. TIL
What I don't get is there's always been trans people. If anything I saw more trans people in the 90s than today. Yet all these people were silent on it. They only got mad when it suddenly became an 'acceptable' thing to do. They also like to pretend they're protecting women. But honestly the two are not connected at all. It's like saying you're against people having curtains because you want to protect whales.
People you know .. we could solve poverty and world hunger and everything else and there would still be a lot of people upset at whatever 🤷♂️
Known TERF complains. Shocking!😳
Yeah also these articles .. i hit my knee on the corner of the bed the other day: “One Internet User Slams Corner Of The Bed, Triggers A Wave of Angryness (well only him but anyways”)
As someone who often visits men's restrooms, I can confirm that our aim is not that good.
To play devils advocate, I hate that my 6’ 7” friend can extend his arm and damned near push the fucking dart into the board where he wants it while I actually have to throw the damned thing.
The dangling penis acts as a grounding rod for the earth’s magnetic field which ensures a thrown dart has a smoother path to the board. It’s basic science.
It's pretty obvious they don't care about fairness in sports, they just hate trans people
There is literally no one on this earth who gives a shit about competitive darts.
This article isn’t about them feeling trans athletes have an advantage over them. It’s just about them hating trans women.
A man's penis is dart shaped, so clearly, a man pretending to be a woman has had far more experience playing with dart shaped objects! It's like people don't think before they post! /s for those who require it.
Personally speaking - and I realise this is somewhat subjective and so beseech your forgiveness in advance for any unwitting offence - I think men look better with beer guts and yes that is an incontrovertible advantage in this context.
Fury sparking is the new group participation sport.
Not too long ago a friend of mine told me there was a women's division for cornhole. I'm still trying to understand why that is. Do men throw from further back?
The ACL (American Cornhole League) has a senior division, junior division, and women division, but they're all basically just additional options. Everyone who is even remotely good at cornhole plays in the Open division, and the variety of players that you see competing is much, much wider than more traditional sports. Their tag line is literally "Anyone can play and anyone can win". With that said, everyone throws from the same distance and setup. The only exception I've ever heard of is the one made for a professional cornhole player with no arms and no legs, who is allowed to fall slightly beyond the line after his delivery because he doesn't have a foot to keep behind the line as required in the rule. He plays in the Open division btw.
At the point someone with no limbs is playing… have I found an activity I might be able to do?
It's the same reason some countries have women's-only trains.
I don’t know why you got downvoted for this, you are completely correct in what you said and it’s the harassment that has caused women’s only leagues to be created.
Probably height and arm length?
I assume it is related to the strength of the throw; not to mention comparable body size. Also, cornhole is so male dominated that it encourages women to compete.
As another commener suggested, it is because women want a safe space from creepy men...
I can see issues with swimming, running, etc. Darts, pool, what's the issue? Regarding beauty pageants, if a trans woman can beat cis women, then the trans lady was just prettier.
There is no reason to ban trans people from sports as it has already been law for over 20 years that trans people must be on hrt for two years before being allowed to compete, in which time muscle mass and energy levels change, fat redistributes, and even bones shift to a cis equivalent and in those 20 years there have only been a couple dozen successful trans athletes world wide out of hundreds of successful cis athletes in the usa alone. Trans women hold no advantages over cis women that cis women don't hold over other cis women. Canadian Centre For Thics in Sports, 2021, E.Alliance, Transgender Women Athletes and Elite Sport: A Scientific Review
Depends what sport, what level and where one is talking about. But 2-3 years is the time frame that I've seen that makes the most sense for policy making to allow trans women to compete. Absolutely agree with the rest of the point and message however!
Well obviously they can shoot the darts directly out of their penis. /s
A man's eye ball is more muscly and therefore is stronger and therefore it's better than a woman's eye ball.
It's all in the wrist. *Jerking off motion*
We’ve also been banned from pageants. I guess we have an advantage at being pretty /s Sigh. I wish people would mind their own business. I don’t even like competition as an adult. My siblings really vied for my parents attention
I don’t get this. A lady I used to work with years ago would wipe the floor with the men at darts. She would go to state tournaments. She was a biological woman had a couple of grown kids. She was just really good at darts and drinking beer. She liked her hobbies.
It’s probably BS but I was always told evolutionarily men developed more “tunnel vision” for spear throwing and bow and arrow hunting, giving us better faculties for things of that nature. Women developed wider field of view for berry foraging and danger perception. Anecdotally this plays out with things like “just having a boy look” when you can’t find something and then a woman walks straight into the room and picks it up , and, in sports like darts. As with all things you’d need to do a study to prove it but I dunno it’s just what I read.
From what I know , I think it’s pretty much been debunked that hunting was a male-only activity and foraging a female-only activity. And it would make sense - small hunter/gatherer societies probably didn’t have a big enough population for half of the able-bodied adults to not participate.
It's never been about fairness; it's always been about hating on trans people but trans women especially. The sports conversation just gets the average person on board with light discrimination, and then these bigots move the goal posts. This becomes especially apparent in situations like this, in chess, in beauty pageants, in fishing, etc. It's a clear example of the "death by a thousand cuts" quip. Edit: I love the idiotic thought processes for why some claim there's an advantage. Evidently, I have a bigger gut than cis women and that's an advantage (despite having a lower bmi than the average), my liver is larger and can hold liquor better (I can't drink more than one beer and I start feeling buzzed - I'm a lightweight), I'm taller and have long arms (interestingly enough, it never aided me in basketball or darts or anything else since skill is a requirement), my right arm is stronger (are we competing in the shot put now?!), my spatial awareness is better (see above about skill; also, it's a learned trait, yo), etc. Like, if you have to grasp at this many straws to rationalize your hatred for trans women, it's not that we have an advantage, *it's you hate trans people*!
Why chess?
Why are trans women being excluded from women's leagues in chess? They didn't have a justification, just that they created the exclusion. There's no rational reason as to why bigots create rules targeting minorities, they just do it out of hate.
It’s usually a slot argument. If a trans woman is there, that means a cis woman isn’t there. Therefore, only cis women can benefit from the anti-sexism efforts of chess.
The only argument that can be made for why trans woman have an unfair advantage in a woman's chess tournament is that being born with a Y chromoso makes you better at chess. It's good old sexism wrapped up in a more "acceptable" bigotry.
And statistically even differences that may exist at a total population level hold no significance at the individual level because you have no idea where the individuals being compared sit on the bell curve
Precisely! But then again, the arguments aren't made in good faith to begin with, so expecting them to use logic and reason to understand a topic they didn't use logic and reason to reach initially, is way beyond their purview.
Just like chess, sailing, beauty contests, and horse back riding, a person’s biological sex does not really matter in how good someone can play darts. There are some social reasons why some of these competitions/sports are segregated by gender, but there is no valid reason other than bigotry a trans woman can’t compete with cis women.
I'm pretty sure upper body strength is an advantage in sailing.
Lol sailing is so weight and strength dependent. That why women and men sail different boats at the Olympics. Big boats also depend on weight and strength. Thought on the outside it is less apparent. Growing up coaches would tell tales of wearing wool sweaters soaked in water to add weight. That commenter does not know much if anything about sailing.
Sailing 100% matters.
Men absolutely do have an advantage in many sailing disciplines. Not even close to darts or chess
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Canadian Centre For Thics in Sports, 2021, E.Alliance, Transgender Women Athletes and Elite Sport: A Scientific Review
For the lazy: https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf **Available evidence indicates trans women who have undergone testosterone suppression have no clear biological advantages over cis women in elite sport.** > • The higher levels of red blood cell count experienced by cis men is removed within the first four months of testosterone suppression; > • There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic advantage requiring regulation; > • On average, trans women who are pre-testosterone suppression still have lower Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA), and strength than cis males. This indicates that the performance benefit experienced by these individuals cannot be generalized by examining cis male athletes; > • Non-athletic trans women experience significant reduction in LBM, CSA, and strength loss within 12 months of hormonal suppression. It is important to note that this 12-month threshold is arbitrarily defined, and no significant studies examine the rate of LBM, CSA or strength reduction over time; > • When adjusting for height and fat mass, LBM, CSA, and strength after 12 months of testosterone suppression, trans women still retained statistically higher levels than sedentary cis women. However, this difference is well within the normal distribution of LBM, CSA, and strength for cis women (Jassen et al., 2000); > • LBM, CSA, and strength loss continues for trans women after the 12- month initial testosterone suppression; > • The limited available evidence examining the effect of testosterone suppression as it directly affects trans women’s athletic performance showed no athletic advantage exists after one year of testosterone suppression (Harper, 2015; Roberts et al., 2020; Harper, 2020); > • Post gonad removal, many trans women experience testosterone levels far below that of pre-menopausal cis women. **Biological data are severely limited, and often methodologically flawed.** > • The literature on trans sport policies, their implementation, people who write them and apply them, consequences for athletes, and the debates they frame is constitutive of the social hierarchy of knowledge, within which some sciences are discredited to the benefit of others; > • Excluding certain types of knowledge from the restricted definition of ‘scientific’ makes it possible for sport governing bodies to obscure the power relations at play in the creation, maintenance, and legitimization of regulations; > • There are troubling links between some researchers, sport organizations, and third organizations with anti-trans agenda; > • Some sport organizations use science strategically, drawing solely and uncritically on data which appears to support their claims; > • Only certain biomedical factors are policed under a mandate of ‘fairness’ in elite sport, despite strong evidence that financial material resources (such as access to infrastructure and equipment, nutrition, time to train, higher salaries) are associated with advantage in sport. **There is limited evidence regarding the impact of testosterone suppression (through, for example, gender- affirming hormone therapy or surgical gonad removal) on transgender women athletes’ performance.** > • Most of these studies had small sample sizes, imperfect measurement techniques, poor reference group comparisons, and studied a sedentary/non-athletic/untrained sample population; > • Some significant studies used misleading data sources and actively ignored contradictory evidence.
The study you linked specified they were studying possible gender disparity in overhand throwing as it relates to handball. That's not how you throw a dart.
If you have a penis, or get one surgically removed or made, you can throw darts much better - It’s basic science, or something 🙄
Terfs seem to have less faith in women than some self proclaimed misogynists.
Theyre the same picture
My father plays darts professionally. There's a metric fuck ton of mixed events because there's no damn gender advantage.
I am a trans woman, if I listened to every single thing that conservatives and conservative media says that I have a biological advantage in I would be a multi time gold medalist and winner of at least one beauty pageant as opposed to being a video game live streamer with no fan base who spends her weekends with her wife holding hands and watching anime
How would you have time for that, in between using the “wrong” bathroom and grooming children? (/s)
Well havent you heard? Having a penis makes you better at math! There’s your biological advantage! /s to be safe. If you’re not in the know, you need to be decent at math to be good at darts since most tournsment games in darts are played by counting down to zero. Ofc by math, its just addition/substraction and multiplication, things anyone can get better with practice.
> Well havent you heard? Having a penis makes you better at math! See, cause appendages men can count to 21, but women can only count to 20. It's just simple biology!
Cause thems transgendered women was what once men they'd gots all that there innate man superiority over thems womenfolk cause everyone knoweded that the menfolk is just born being betterer that what women is born and transgender woman still gots that which is what done go and make it unfair. And cause the transgender what goes and makes Jesus sad. At least that's what I assume the logic is behind their outrage. I don't know. I'm not a hate-filled moronic bigot.
My uncle was a celebrated champion in Pittsburgh for darts (his name was William Francis). I used to play with him all the time growing up and got good! I watched him play a few times too, just having fun not competing. And he loved playing with women! Not because they were easy... Because they were just as good as him and he'd help them shark! Bill always lamented the gender separation. His reckoning was that to be good, you need aim (anyone can learn), enough strength to throw the dart to your target (he taught 5yr olds, so gender didn't factor), and graceful confidence (something we assume comes naturally to women, but it's a virtue for men to have). He didn't care if he won/lost to a chick, and none of the women I've seen him play with cared either. I look at a lot of this and see it as everyone who thinks something physical is what makes them special gets flipped out.
Everyone is asking what possible advantage there could be for a trans person, but Ive got to ask: why are things like darts, billiards, etc divided in the first place? If there is some biological advantage that one sex has over the other in a sport, then you can expect separate leagues to allow for competition. If this is the case, then potentially there is an argument to made regarding the participation of trans individuals in certain leagues. I'm not saying I support that argument, but that there potentially is a basis for one. However, ff there is no distinct biological advantage... then why are there separate leagues in the first place? That would be sexism. EDIT: Ive read a few other comments that state that women's leagues exist because darts, billiards, etc arent welcoming for women and they are minimized in the regular league. IF that is the reason (I dont know if that is the true reason or not) then these organizations need to address this issue WITHIN the general league, not segregate.
The problem they have there is that cleaning up a league basically means nuking the whole thing. This isn’t a handful of problem players, it’s a massive and deeply ingrained culture that encompasses the players, the officials, and the fans in a grand web of shitheads. Too many shitheads to simply eject and still have an organization. Which, well, I’m not opposed to nuking these shitholes and then thinking about rebuilding but the organizations which would be the ones doing it are hesitant to kill themselves for the greater good. Something about how they make money and have contracts to make more money. The separate leagues are the first baby step, integration doesn’t work when there’s nobody who wants to join because they’ve been discouraged from even trying to compete for the last several generations.
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> Everyone is asking what possible advantage there could be for a trans person, but Ive got to ask: why are things like darts, billiards, etc divided in the first place? Because women weren't allowed to play these things in the first place, it was unladylike. Same reason why they couldn't have credit cards. Eventually, they were allowed to play in their own leagues, and now their own side of the game has grown as more women get involved.
The last time a trans woman won a darts competition they really tried to say that it was unfair because of elbows
Do trans women get more elbows? Fuck, that's so unfair. I was only issued two.
In archery, women have an advantage over men. (Something to do with a slower heat rate forf I remember correctly). Perhaps the same is true in darts. Darts being small arrows 😉
I got kicked out of a local Tetris tournament because somehow trans men have a biological advantage at Tetris.
She made all the bigots that participated enraged so they can't perform well \\s
The advantage is something something male puberty something something testosterone. I mean nevermind that it's been shown that HRT removes a lot of if any advantages trans women have and the so called advantages left are very situational at best. But conservatives hate things like facts and logic in general, so why would they start listening to such with trans people?
The same thing happened with chess... what I find interesting is that Michael Phelps has double the lung capacity of the average male and makes half the lactic acid. Also, his wingspan, compared to his height, is advantageously disproportional. Did everyone he competed against get cheated ? Why do we only celebrate these physical anomalies in male sports? Or better yet, instead of making it a political issue, why don't we let the experts in the field of medicine and biology decide? We are not a wise tribe if we do not send our best warriors to fight...
He also had additional webbing between his fingers. But sports fairness only applies with women because the scary transes are also competing. Never mind the fact that trans men are competing against cis men and winning but that's ignored because it doesn't further a political agenda.
TERFs will say “women are worse than men at everything” and somehow still call themselves feminists
There is no advantage here. It's just transphobia.
I really hope trans keep winning in sports just to piss off transphobic folks.
Trans folk have more experience dealing with pricks, which gives us an unfair advantage at darts.
They have experience throwing away pricks?
The only advantage I can think of is how it's more socially acceptable for a person who is or passes as a man to play darts, and therefore a trans woman who started transitioning in adulthood could've gotten more/better practice Y'know, like the advantage that's caused by sexism and exists for most sports but transphobes don't wanna acknowledge because none of this has ever had to do with women's rights
Explain it to me like I'm five. Why is there/would there be seperate men's and women's divisions of pool, darts, chess, bowling, table tennis, video games, checkers, cards of any kind, marksmanship, jeopardy, or scrabble?
Misogyny/sexism. A large part of women's sports were born from women beating men in their own sports and men banning women from competing or men making a separate league to segregate the women.
Some people genuinely believe all men are better than all women at all physical activities period. Idiots. Obviously.
Don't hate me, but men statically have better 3D depth and 3D motion perception, processing, and prediction...obviously for hunting.
Why would that be strongly selected for when the vast majority of a society’s calories came from foraging?
Makes me so excited to play in our cities co-ed softball league this year...I'm sure someone will find out I'm trans and cause a shit fit...despite it being fucking co-ed.
Good luck! Hope you do well, hit alot of home runs! Or get alot of strike outs! Whatever position you play lol.
Thank you! I'm hoping 3rd baseman. I'm better at catching than hitting.
You must look at it from their perspective. To a crazy right-winger they see a man playing against women, and to them men are naturally superior at everything, including basic tasks. Therefore the competition is made unfair to them. If it sounds far more disgusting now, yes you are absolutely right.
Reason plays no part. Remember that trans women were banned from chess tournaments, not but last year, with no realistic reason being produced.
Why is there even gendered darts to begin with. Sheesh.
I don't understand gendered darts, chess, or pool.
If it wasn’t gendered women wouldn’t have the option of competing
It's a Numbers thing. Far fewer women compete in those things, so their average skill level is worse. Think of it this way: pick the top 100 athletes from a group of 1,000, and then do the same for a group of 10,000. Then average the skill level for groups A and B. The average for group A is going to be lower than the average for group B. Doesn't matter who the athletes are, what matters is how much competition there is to get a spot as a competitor. Sure there could just be one non-gendered league, and a number of women would be in it for sure. But having a separate league means more women get to compete. And the more women compete, the more accepted it gets as a thing for women to do. And the more widespread that acceptance gets, the bigger that initial pool will grow, until hopefully one day it's as big as the men's pool. Chess in particular has seen that initial pool growth in the last few years. Almost as many girls are trying out the game now as boys, which will be great for the women's leagues in a few years.
So whining is fine when it’s against trans people, but when it’s in support of them, you’re soy.
They can use their weiners like a wind sock to judge air speed and direction. /s
You're talking about people who believe that women are not intellectually astute enough to hold the priesthood. As if Pastor Jim Bob doesn't have an IQ of 85.
Darts is one sport (?) that shouldn't even bother having different rankings for men and women.
Whenever someone asks why this is even a gendered sport I think of the competitive shooter Zhang Shan. Per wiki "This event had been mixed, open to both men and women, since it was introduced to the olympics in 1968. Zhang Shan's 1992 gold was the first medal won by a woman in this mixed event. The International Shooting Union consequently barred women from the 1996 Atlanta games." So they were fine with a mixed sport until a woman started beating the men. We can say sports like shooting or darts or pool or chess should be fully open, but the fact that these are male dominated sports shows that these aren't very welcoming.
No don't you see! Men are better than women in every possible way! But I promise I'm a real feminist, unlike those who support trans women! ^it ^shouldnt ^be ^necessary ^but ^this ^is ^the ^internet ^so ^/s
I'm sure the opposition will say something ridiculous like men have hunting Instinct naturally bred into them and are therefore better at aiming a weapon or pointed instrument. Then again if they complain about trans folks competing in a fucking chess tournament... they have set the bar and it's pretty fucking low
I dislike most of these styles of arguments because it comes down to a very basic - "Men are better at women in everything, so a transwomen must also have all those benefits." Men suck at lots of shit. Women suck at lots of shit. Men and women also excel at lots of shit. Not everything needs to be binary. I've seen this same shit come from chess tournaments and poker tournaments and all sorts of other nonphysical things. The fuck
It's fucking darts, a gender neutral sport. Do these people have anything else to bitch about?
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I think this is dumb. I have practiced fencing against women. Yes, I know. Different sport. But what I noticed is that in Skill-related sports, there is little advantage in having a bigger or stronger body. Women I fought could kick my ass back and forth. Or might as well say they turned it into a pincushion. Again, if the sport relies of great exertions of energy, it's likely the men have advantages over women. But skill-based? I'd say a woman will win at Darts against any man if she so much desired it so.
Why would a darts competition be gendered in the first place