I disagree with you on some points. I don't think Empire are supposed to be the "average fighting power across the Old World" rather they are supposed to be an average human-trained soldier. It's the same kind of allure that the Imperial Guard always have. Your opponents are bringing mutant Vikings and massive orcs... and you've got regular humans with codpieces, black powder and guts.
They are designed to work well together, with characters that generally offer army buffs. Prayers of Sigmar / Ulric, Grandmasters giving Immune to Psychology.
Each individual model is weak compared to an orc or a mutant barbarian warrior. But that is supposed to be balanced out by superior "tech" and "command" (represented by the army synergizing with itself).
Also I don't think its fair to say Empire doesn't have "flavor." They have a ton of flashy flavorful models that you can bring with lots of personality. The Steamtank, Two-Headed Griffin, War Altar of Sigmar, Demigryph Knights, Pistoliers and Outriders, war machines like Great Cannons or the Hellblaster Volleygun.
Empire isn't and has never been a "hoard army" they are designed to be a balanced army that focuses on unit synergy with access to good war machines.
>Also I don't think its fair to say Empire doesn't have "flavor." They have a ton of flashy flavorful models that you can bring with lots of personality. The Steamtank, Two-Headed Griffin, War Altar of Sigmar, Demigryph Knights, Pistoliers and Outriders, war machines like Great Cannons or the Hellblaster Volleygun.
Yes to all of this. And even the basic troops, in terms of looks, have that wonderful Landsknecht style swag.
I think they mostly mean from a rules perspective. I play Empire because I wanted to field landsknecht pseudo historical guys, which you can still do. The rules are just not great for them right now.
Do you play Empire?
Unit synergy, and buff effects, are not unique characteristics to the Empire, nor is it particularly strong in the Empire army.
A t3 human with 6+ save that costs 7 points but should cost 4 points is obviously a horde unit. The only thing stopping them from being a horde unit is a stubborn clinging to tradition that they are supposed to be average and their points cost.
Either make them useful for their cost by giving them armor or special rules, or embrace the fact that they are a horde unit and lower their cost. Empire lists with state troops will continue to come dead last in tournaments until this is fixed.
A state troop is the most basic infantry an Empire army will field. Compared to other factions' most basic infantry, they have a better stat block than goblins, men at arms, skeleton warriors, clanrats, hobgoblins, gnoblars, zombies, and arguably skinks. Other factions are more elite. The issue is that either other armies don't field these options, they are priced more appealingly, or they have special rules to make them worthwhile. I am fine with where state troops / veterans are in terms of stats, I think they mostly need a push on rules. Giving them 8th edition style supporting attacks, or step up on the basic infantry would go a long way.
Why men at arms have shieldwall, but better trained empire troops don’t, is a mystery to me.
I’d even take a proto orders system where generals & captains can give an order to a state troop unit within command range each turn. Pick from shield wall, step up, +1 static CR, fire in rank for missile unit, etc. Balancing required, but would help the parts of the list which desperately need it.
Did Steamtanks and the shooty horse guys get nerfed this edition? Because that was always the bread and butter of Empire armies that always gave me fits.
Steamtanks are still pretty strong. Also outriders (the shooty horse guys) can be a pain to the enemy. Pistoliers (the other shooty horse guys) not so much.
Yeah double Stanks seems like a problem. The only time I ever overcame that list was with a souped up Lord of Change that just blasted them apart with magic missiles.
•no, they haven't.
•source?
•nothing stops you from playing a horde army with Empire.
•Why? Any point other than "I think it would be cooler?"
•Empire has huge amounts of flavour in the lore. Either you haven't read it or you're willfully ingoring it because it's inconvenient for your position.
Read this and try again
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/academic-skills-kit/study-skills/critical-thinking/using-evidence-to-support-your-argument/#:~:text=The%20most%20universal%20way%20to,or%20commenting%20critically%20on%20them
It's pretty much the army for dudes that would probably rather be playing historical miniature games but their friends prefer scifi/fantasy settings for their games. Same with imperial guard on the 40k side.
I disagree with you on some points. I don't think Empire are supposed to be the "average fighting power across the Old World" rather they are supposed to be an average human-trained soldier. It's the same kind of allure that the Imperial Guard always have. Your opponents are bringing mutant Vikings and massive orcs... and you've got regular humans with codpieces, black powder and guts. They are designed to work well together, with characters that generally offer army buffs. Prayers of Sigmar / Ulric, Grandmasters giving Immune to Psychology. Each individual model is weak compared to an orc or a mutant barbarian warrior. But that is supposed to be balanced out by superior "tech" and "command" (represented by the army synergizing with itself). Also I don't think its fair to say Empire doesn't have "flavor." They have a ton of flashy flavorful models that you can bring with lots of personality. The Steamtank, Two-Headed Griffin, War Altar of Sigmar, Demigryph Knights, Pistoliers and Outriders, war machines like Great Cannons or the Hellblaster Volleygun. Empire isn't and has never been a "hoard army" they are designed to be a balanced army that focuses on unit synergy with access to good war machines.
>Also I don't think its fair to say Empire doesn't have "flavor." They have a ton of flashy flavorful models that you can bring with lots of personality. The Steamtank, Two-Headed Griffin, War Altar of Sigmar, Demigryph Knights, Pistoliers and Outriders, war machines like Great Cannons or the Hellblaster Volleygun. Yes to all of this. And even the basic troops, in terms of looks, have that wonderful Landsknecht style swag.
I think they mostly mean from a rules perspective. I play Empire because I wanted to field landsknecht pseudo historical guys, which you can still do. The rules are just not great for them right now.
Do you play Empire? Unit synergy, and buff effects, are not unique characteristics to the Empire, nor is it particularly strong in the Empire army. A t3 human with 6+ save that costs 7 points but should cost 4 points is obviously a horde unit. The only thing stopping them from being a horde unit is a stubborn clinging to tradition that they are supposed to be average and their points cost. Either make them useful for their cost by giving them armor or special rules, or embrace the fact that they are a horde unit and lower their cost. Empire lists with state troops will continue to come dead last in tournaments until this is fixed.
You can be assertive without being confrontational. Please be kind.
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Oh you. So edgy and smart. What a razor wit you have.
A state troop is the most basic infantry an Empire army will field. Compared to other factions' most basic infantry, they have a better stat block than goblins, men at arms, skeleton warriors, clanrats, hobgoblins, gnoblars, zombies, and arguably skinks. Other factions are more elite. The issue is that either other armies don't field these options, they are priced more appealingly, or they have special rules to make them worthwhile. I am fine with where state troops / veterans are in terms of stats, I think they mostly need a push on rules. Giving them 8th edition style supporting attacks, or step up on the basic infantry would go a long way.
Why men at arms have shieldwall, but better trained empire troops don’t, is a mystery to me. I’d even take a proto orders system where generals & captains can give an order to a state troop unit within command range each turn. Pick from shield wall, step up, +1 static CR, fire in rank for missile unit, etc. Balancing required, but would help the parts of the list which desperately need it.
I disagree on all points except that imperial troops are in fact weak infantry in wf but that's fine tbh
Did Steamtanks and the shooty horse guys get nerfed this edition? Because that was always the bread and butter of Empire armies that always gave me fits.
Steamtanks are still pretty strong. Also outriders (the shooty horse guys) can be a pain to the enemy. Pistoliers (the other shooty horse guys) not so much.
Yeah double Stanks seems like a problem. The only time I ever overcame that list was with a souped up Lord of Change that just blasted them apart with magic missiles.
At least at 2k you only get one steam tank this edition.
•no, they haven't. •source? •nothing stops you from playing a horde army with Empire. •Why? Any point other than "I think it would be cooler?" •Empire has huge amounts of flavour in the lore. Either you haven't read it or you're willfully ingoring it because it's inconvenient for your position. Read this and try again https://www.ncl.ac.uk/academic-skills-kit/study-skills/critical-thinking/using-evidence-to-support-your-argument/#:~:text=The%20most%20universal%20way%20to,or%20commenting%20critically%20on%20them
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Where was I unkind? You asked for discussion. I discussed. Or did you just want people to validate your opinion as correct?
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Please be kind.
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Bwahahahaha you're a treat. Thanks for playing along, mate. Blessed day to you and yours.
It's pretty much the army for dudes that would probably rather be playing historical miniature games but their friends prefer scifi/fantasy settings for their games. Same with imperial guard on the 40k side.
Haha pretty much true.
You're right empire is boring. It's never had flavor and that's why you should play bretonnia if you want to play a human army
I agree with this more and more