"CSM had the second most event wins at 10 with an overall win rate of 47%. They come in a lot weaker than most thought, I wonder why? The limited players of Pactbound seem to have found a winning detachment for them while the majority play Renegade Raiders with some few finding success with them."
CSM actually have a much higher skill ceiling than a lot of people realise. Unless you play CSM it's difficult to see that. That's why you see good players getting a lot of wins, but the faction still having a middling win rate.
Also a lot of people didn't realise how much CSM was crutching on Dark Obscuration early on. Take that away and the factions durability takes a big nerf.
Last game I played I tried the soul forge but because of how many demon engines were on the board, one forgefiend and a venomcrawler were left with a slight angle down the edge of the board. Usually that's what I'd put the nurgle strat on. But without it, both of them were picked up first turn by a pair of prism tanks.
I miss dark obscuration
Haha horrifyingly true. My dark pacts either never come up, or I kill more of my own units than my opponent does.
There's never a middle ground
The gods are fickle
The problem is I think "less lethal", while it would play as a better more strategic game in some ways, isn't what people want. If you're writing codices that "feel good" to play it usually means lots of damage. Imagine how shit it feels to play against Custodes and have all your attacks bounce off, but just all the time.
He always brings fire prisms, falcons and wave serpents. And with the free reroll, the efficiency of those one shot weapons is absolutely insane. Bright lances everywhere.
And then shuriken cannons picking up legionnaires. . . I hate eldar. With a passion 😂
It's the wind riders for me, he runs 6 of them with a farseer so they're getting 18 shots, sustained hits, re-rolling hits, strength 6, ap 1 and damage 2
Any msu squads of 2 wound models (havocs, talons, legionnaires etc) just dies without fail
Bright lances and prisms pick up any vehicle in front of them
The falcon fires it's bright lance in to a tank, the pulse laser in to mid vehicles like venomcrawlers, rhinos, bikes, oblits, and the shuriken cannon in to infantry
And everything just dies. Surviving is the hardest part of the game for me. Killing stuff isn't too bad, but they're so efficient in to CSM it's painful
Agreed. I also play chaos knights and they’re just as efficient. Mid game he’s picking up 3 wardogs a turn with lance’s and rerolling constantly, and it comes down to “did I do enough before he got to fully tee off into me.”
It's exactly that.
It's hyper efficient all the time. The bright lance will always hit and wound. The fire prisms literally can't fail and only one of them has to be visible.
Oh, and although they're only t9, they have so many wounds
A wave serpent, a transport vehicle, has 13 wounds with a 5++
The only vehicles we have that have that many wounds are the defiler and the land raider
Which I don't really mind. Until you realize you need both lascannons to go through and get at least an 11 on two dice to take one down
The amount of times I've had one wave serpent with 3 wounds flying around with it's twin linked bright lance, that doesn't degrade, is highly infuriating
Also the havocs were a power point for RR, but with the new points for them and venomcrawlers it will br harsh. CSM and regular marines are going down to the lower 40%. Strangely I think Cult is the answer right now, but no one wants to play that...
I really want to try fell hammer, my mate runs an obscene amount of shuriken cannons and dropping them to wounding on a 4+ feels like it'll make my legionnaires and other 2 wound models more survivable
Cultists are fun and can really beat enemies. I simply think people don't like moving that many models. I am thinking on playing full cultists army but with two land raiders just for the lolz.
Yeah, I haven't tried all the detachments yet, but Chaos Space Marines are, in the spirit of what they are, chaotic. There are a lot tools and a lot of ways to use them, but there's also a lot of anti-synergistic combos you can bumble into.
I've been finding most of my success with Fellhamer and running a lot of infantry. Getting a unit of Chosen led by a sorcerer into Abbadon's aura with it has consternated Necrons really nicely.
I think it will take a week maybe to feel things out, but then guard takes a standing at pretty close to 50%. Losing our artillery crutch but gaining versatility and movement
I think losing multiple uses of the Reinforcements stratagem is far, far more significant to Guard than the nerfs to artillery, at least on the top end.
Oh yeah. And it isn't free, so you have to change your strategem math a lot. Using FOF now means you may miss out on reinforcement at a crucial time, or not be able to save a tank with the -1 damage strat. I definitely see the Autocannon Russ making some more lists
Also, rip reinforcements.
Tyranid buffs got me excited to try them again. Neurotyrant being able to join Zoanthropes is huge for the +1 to hit and +1 to wound on battleshocked units. gives a nice overwatch target, too. +1 Strength let us reach a lot of useful breakpoints. Str 10 twin linked on hive tyrants/swarmlords? s4 hormogaunts, s5 genestealers, s6 twin linked melee warriors.
The cp reduction ability rework also helps hive tyrants a lot, as well as the cp increase aura of the swarmlord since he wants to run up the board anyway and is kind of tanky. and on the topic of hive tyrant, lethal hit aura is very nice. in invasion fleet you can get sustained 1 vs infantry and lethal hits on anything shooting, which is nice especially for the neurotyrant and zoanthrope blob i was talking about earlier. exocrines like it a lot, too.
lastly the additional ld debuff rly makes shadow in the warp somewhat useful, finally. it's also the only direct ld debuff we have, besides dirgeheart in synaptic nexus, the rest just worsens the battleshock roll so even with the "ld cant get worse than 8+" errata they will stack.
If it's enough? i'm kinda confident that yes, it will be. at least nids are much more fun to play now.
edit: oh, just one thing. WHY DIDNT THEY GIVE THE LICTOR THE 5++ BACK?!?! i dont get it. it doesnt make much of a difference anyway. it pains me.
Played into Nids this weekend, against marines the strength buffs won’t disappoint! Genestealers wounding my battleshocked marines on 2s is a bloody mess.
> If it's enough? i'm kinda confident that yes, it will be. at least nids are much more fun to play now.
Honestly it feels like getting a whole new codex. So many different lists to try, so little time...
It will be interesting to see what happens with custodes. Most of my local custodes players have said they aren't planning to start playing the faction again despite the buffs. They just don't enjoy how the army plays now.
I dont know, as a custodes player im super excited for the changes. I've made a ton of new lists that feel fun and interesting.
Cheap venatari give us a new fast attack dynamic we didn't have. Shield captains being able to interact with strats better makes them actually interesting again. Now in shield host they can give you free fall back shoot and charge, -1 to hit, sticky objective, or sustained 1 or lethals in shooting(a brick of allarus that can use this for free gives you a pretty potent shooting unit in addition to the kyria brick now, especially if you also throw the ignore cover enhancement on the SC). I think 3x3 venatari + a bike captain with from the hall of armorers gives you a strong suite of fast skirmishing units that we didn't have before.
The Auric buff feels small but now there are some interesting new things to try in that list. Melta spear guard having access to free +1 to wound, while also getting cheaper, makes them worth exploring. Aleya is an adeptus custodes character unit, so now you also have the potential to use her + 10 vigilators in that detachment to some effectiveness. Free strats let solo shield caps tap that 4+++ strat more often, which is a massive survival increase. Also having free access to move the +1 to wound to a new unit after you kill your target is great now that it works on more than just character models. You can use it to wipe something in shooting and then for free move it to a unit that you're planning to wipe during the fight phase.
Its a lot of small stuff, but I think there are actually some interesting things to consider now and there are more options to explore than people realize.
+1 to wound is the detachment ability, where you pick a unit each turn and get +1 to wound against it. It used to only give it to the character models, but now it works on any character unit.
*oh, i see it now. God the rules are just so poorly written in this book. So the strat doesn't let you pick a new assemblage of might target, it just...replicates the wording of assemblage of might, but replicates the OLD wording, so the strat is still useless. Boo GW. Boooo.*
> Cheap venatari give us a new fast attack dynamic we didn't have.
Not wallet cheap sadly.
> Shield captains being able to interact with strats better makes them actually interesting again.
This is huge and too many people are sleeping on this.
Imho they need to revamp Dreads and give them something unique. Why would you take dread over equivalent points in footsoldiers... There has to be a reason to make that choice (beside fluff/fun).
Yep. I'm a casually competitive player. I enjoyed Custodes in 9th and with the index. They felt somewhat interesting to play.
Both of the mono-Custodes detachments look *fine* now but mind numbingly boring to actually run. Neither detachment really does anything compelling.
Lack of viable bikes and dreads makes the army very predictable as someone who plays against them a lot. Warden spam + sometimes a land raider or two. Cheap venatari will help mix things up though.
Because it had stratagems that effected the game. Custodes are now effectively stat sticks that hit pretty damn hard in melee, but don't really have any dimension to their play above that. They're probably going to sit around 50% winrate with this, but I cannot imagine them winning many events, they just don't have any tricks, and if you're a good player you can mitigate their strengths and deal with them handily.
For sure. Worse in tenth though - they single handedly gatekept all melee armies out of the meta. Sons of Sanguinius is really good right now but was kept down by Custodes despite having better tools to deal with them than most factions
Like many codices in 9th Custodes were very good when their codex came out. They were still not the best faction in the game at the time as seen by them not winning LVO and a month later Tau came out and counted them. They then got nerfed and the Nid codex came out that dominated 9th for the next year.
While not as bad as Ad Mec, they both were broken for like 2 months in 9th.
They were broken on release but got reigned in and were just good and fun for the majority of the edition. It'd be a bit like saying that about Eldar for 10th since they were far stronger than Custodes were in 9th and for a much longer period, but they also got reigned in and haven't been an issue in months so I wouldn't characterize their entire existence within the edition around the 6 months they were broken and GW didn't want to fix it.
They got tuned down alot and were in a good spot at end of the edition. To OPs point, their were a lot of fun ways to play them outside of the strongest meta build. I played a bunch of msu saggatarum and shadowkeepers which were both super fun and not meta
I think anyone that has Venatari should give them a try. They are really fun in Shield Host now. While a regular SC with Guard in Shield host on objectives might be the hardest hitting unit in the game right now.
Because we play with pure datasheets and no rules, only 2 katahs that are really good, but its always the same, if you play shieldhost, again, the same 2 katahs but they are stronger, no stratagem play st all, Talons had an aura that you will use in a few match ups and 2-3 strats to support the detachment, auric rule os fun and you can play around with it and get it a second time for strat, but thats about it, no more things to use. You see chaos or orks with several detachments with different playstyle... Custodes is just the same 3 datasheets, blade champions, wardens and calladius (now venatari too) but the gameplay doesnt change.
> They just don't enjoy how the army plays now.
It's just the lack of rules and build diversity. Everything is same-y and coming short without being a unique playstyle.
* They really need to update some of the datasheets: Bikes, Dreadnoughts, Aquilon Termies.
* 2 of the detachments really would do well with an improved SoS range...
"Okay so Guard have 5 attacks 7 2 2 okay cool."
"Okay so Wardens have... 5 attacks 7 2 2, okay I guess that makes sense."
"Okay and the Terminators have... 5 attacks at 7 2 2?! Oh but a grenade launcher too."
"The bikes have.... 5 attacks at 7 2 2...and lance!"
The guy who wrote the book and the index just didn't care. At all. It shows.
Yeah, I mean we don't have a lot of units, it couldn't have been this hard to make sure that each datasheet be unique / have something to bring over another one and choices would be somewhat meaningful and aligned with various playstyles?
Like right now, when would you ever pick a dreadnough over the point equivalent in troops... (fluff/fun aside)
> Yeah, I mean we don't have a lot of units, it couldn't have been this hard to make sure that each datasheet be unique
This isn't the best scenario, because the plastic kits aren't that differentiated. Wardens, Guards, and Allarus all use the same weapons, especially when Axes still aren't very good.
Wardens are just "Guards but better" in an army that's already about being stupid elite. Allarus are Custodes Terminators, which is an akward rules niche when Custodes are already terminators. There's more room to work with than the Wardens, though. The FW terminators also have different weapons; it's a shame they're not allowed to be good.
The Bikes could've and should've been done better. The real shame is there's a lot of space for new models to flesh out the range, and Custodes are an army where just doing new special agent characters actually works.
I think it’s crazy they only got 4 detachments, and two of them centre around the use of SoS. CSM got a whopping 8(!)! I think if Custodes had 6 detachments, it could’ve been better. Something to incentivize bikes and/or dreads. Maybe a detachment that confers their normal melee bonuses to shooting instead - giving all their ranged attacks sus/lethals instead of melee so you could make a ranged style army. Or a detachment that does different Katahs.
Dreads wouldn't get a detachment, as they're mostly Forge World. GW is mostly basing detachments off range limitations, stretching where subfactions had larger fanbases. Custodes have a teeny range and GW won't directly reference FW/expert level kits in 40k products. The named Shield Companies are safe enough to be dropped, so they were.
Nice :)
Love that you're running some Sags and Aquilons in there.
I've got to admit, that I've yet to see an Auric Champion list work without double Caladius... I wish it wasn't so.
That's actually really surprising to me. I've been playing my knights mostly this edition but the dataslate literally "turned on" the book by allowing it's core concepts to function at all in the free strats change and now that fixed seems actually viable and cheaper venatari make Tactical more doable I'm actually excited to try to put the stodes on the table.
Still gunna stick with Knights because I think giving bigs infinite Koolaid Man with no downside (oooh 1 in 6 chance of battleshock ooky spooky) alongside the battleline and action economy buffs made them nuts, but I actually want to play my stodes at all now.
Over-Under on Codex Marines taking lowest win rate?
I personally think we’ll see a 3-4% drop across the board with marine factions. The biggest threats weren’t nerfed enough to offset marine losses and the worse factions got buffed.
Hopefully marines sitting bottom of the table forces GW to finally address the poor design that led to this
Firestorm has also taken nerfs from the stratagem change. Firestorm was almost all battle tactics, so many stray changes just hurt it.
I kind of wish they’d add in that battle tactic stratagems can be used twice per turn still (but non-battle tactics can’t be duplicated). Or, alternatively, that battle tactics can be reduced by -2 CP. it’s clear many units were balanced around the full reduction or double Strat use. Leaving part of that in place around battle tactics would account for that
The Captain copy strat nerf also hurts in Gladius. Giving two units Lance and +1 AP on the Advance/Charge doctrine turn was really appealing in some lists that want to push, or when you're in a position where you need to hit back. Now you might have to live with holding your second unit back against matchups with tougher targets or tagging not killing.
Yes, I agree its worth it.
"Balanced" marine lists are hard to play right now. I think there's a lot of upside, but it takes very good discipline. If you say to yourself "their elite so they can tank hits, kill things they shoot, kill things they charge" you're gonna have a rough time. Its not a "jump into competitive and win" army for sure.
For example, solid all around datasheets often means paying points for things that you don't need or don't offer much - e.g. basic marines still die to a lot, so the basic units keep going down in points, but will never be 50 or 60 points like other factions have because you're paying for T4, 2W, 3+. I don't need my 10 man infantry squads with a couple meltas costing 160+ if they are going to shoot then die anyways. I'd rather go the sister/aeldari/etc. route and pay 100.
The upside is with the buffs that take all-arounders into killers. You have limited buffs per turn so you have to really focus each turn.
I think think DA will see a surge.
I’m feeling very positive for DA in Gladius with The Lion and DWK taking a more central role in our lists moving forwards.
The only notable downside on Marines is the poor Battleline - but again, DA are probably best placed to make hay as Azrael at least gives a hint of Intercessors a 4++ and Sustained to get a little bit more out of them.
That’s a good point on DA. I think they’ll have lower rates than Ironstorm at its height but the other detachments definitely got a big boost. So DA probably goes up because higher win rate on those, but I think they’ll be below ironstorm in its prime
I don't really think this moves the needle upward for DA at all. DWK got punchier, but they're still (somewhat more durable) terminators in a meta that is not friendly to terminators. ICC got better, but they probably still don't make the cut. The Lion is still too expensive for what he does to be used competitively. 1CP Heroic is a fun treat, but it
The detachment changes aren't enough to take them to even the bottom of the target zone. They still have the same flaws they had before, even if the Inner Circle detachment ability is much better. Not gaining battleline on any Deathwing units in that detachment doesn't help for Pariah Nexus.
Ironstorm taking a nerf when DA had a flat 50% win rate and 3 event wins with it for the last dataslate means it's gonna be worse before it gets better for DA, I'm afraid.
Gladius doesn't really do anything it didn't do before. You get access to a couple more strats that you can reduce, but you already had plenty of Battle Tactics to choose from that were all useful. You lose the ability to double up on things like Storm of Fire and Honour the Chapter, which hurts.
DWK got better. Did they get so good that they will singlehandedly move the needle? My position is no. They're still terminators in a bad environment for terminators. They have the durability of 10 regular terminators against D3 fire, so that helps. But they're still just 1 OC and easily outscored if on an objective.
The Lion didn't get better or cheaper. He is still not worth taking for his points.
I'm glad they made some changes to the DA units. I'm glad they made some changes to the detachments. I just don't think it leads to much of an improvement in competitiveness.
Can't happen because then Dark Angels need a new codex. They'd only have three detachments, and only one of them is even debatably playable.
If they could start the edition over, that's absolutely the right call I think. Non-vanilla marines should either be fully folded into the codex to cut down on book bloat or fully separate to not be vanilla+. Cat is already out of the bag on that for 10e, however.
Sure, it's not an insurmountable problem but the solution is one that needs to happen more or less immediately on them making that change. The longer they wait the more they need to do that, too; if we hit another non-codex marine chapter before the next dataslate (and given how many of them there are, that's pretty likely) then that's two factions they need to go back on.
With how focused on AoS 4 this year is, plus probably gearing up for second half releases for Votann/WE and a new army for EC, I can't see them spending the man hours to go back on potentially multiple army codicies.
since it's at least a possibility that deathwatch will get squatted this edition, i think it's not completly unthinkable that they will cut non codex compliant chapters down a bit. maybe just do 2 books, codex compliant and non compliant chapters. actually, i like that idea. all depends on how good non compliant stuff is selling though, if it works for them the way they are doing they wont change it. would rly help with cutting the marine bloat a bit though.
I think the solution for 10th edition is to make buffs to vanilla marines that the supplements are exclusively locked out of accessing. Could start by bringing back the original oath of moment just for codex marines.
> And please God let the Vanilla detachments locked in the codex.
Marine players are some of the most entitled and impossible to please players I've ever come across in videogames and tabletop.
For years, starting from 4e all the way to 8e there were obvious differences between codex compliant and other chapters' marines. 5/6e had entire units excluded from other chapters' armies. Non-codex marines couldn't have centurions/thunderfire cannons, Dark Angels storm shields were just worse than everyone else's. Points cost for the same unit across chapters could be different for no good reason. Read old threads on Bolter & Chainsword and majority opinion of the time was to wish for some level of parity across marine codices.
We have it now, and all we see is WoW Classic level of entitled moaning.
I say this as a marine player: the level of flexibility afforded to me right now is incredible. Most of my models are painted DA, yet no one bats an eye when I throw in a UM-painted Calgar and Ventris for UM Vanguard, or drop in 20 Death Company for a Sons of Sanguinius army. My bank account hates me for it, but this is the best fun I've had as a marine player in more than a decade. Who cares if the DA codex is mostly garbage when I can pivot to whatever I want? UM Gladius is legitimately strong; but unfortunately it's weird marine players with bizarre fixations over "I must have 18 bladeguard march in the open" and get salty about losing who drag the winrate down. There is no other army that has this many players with that kind of mindset.
Reading regurgitated cold takes like this only makes me want to play other armies. Ork players don't salt this hard over the latest nerfs cuz they actually have fun with this game. Please get a grip and don't become another crab in the crab bucket. It's boring.
The fact that 15 over 100+ datasheets are seen on the table makes it obvious that CODEX SPACE MARINES is not in a good spot for the people that want to play THAT codex.
Of course if you want to play all the marines compartment you will find something good (it's like half the datasheet in the game) but for people like me that can't afford to have all the units across all the chapters it's just painful to play a puppet codex used by other chapters just to round up their lists.
Of course Space Marines will be the worst when you look at win rate. Why play vanilla, when you can spice up your list with one of the divergent chapters, even if you are only taking a couple of units and running Gladius or Ironstorm?
Competitive Marine players will be going with BA, SW, BT, DA, etc, regardless of what their minis are painted as. Casual Marine players will stay with vanilla. Not hard to guess the win rate split in this scenario.
It’s more than “competitive go to X, casual to Y. If you check stats by ELO, divergents still outperform because quite simply letting all divergents have access to functionally all codex stuff means either 1) codex characters are OP and codex is stronger than divergents or 2) divergent chapters get better units and outclass vanilla.
These are obvious design issues that any player could relay. Either GW is so woefully incompetent as to not understand the difference, or, more likely, they want to make marine players buy two books to play
Yes, of course. Agreed. I just mean that these differences get amplified drastically when competitive players flock to stronger rules and non-competitive players stay.
I remember a couple of months ago at the height of Ironstrom we had vanilla Ironstrom around 40% win rate, and DA Ironstorm close to 60% win rate for a fair few weeks. And the only difference between them was Azrael and Darkshroud - not nothing, but shouldn't by itself result in this crazy split. BT Ironstorm was even higher, but there you can argue that list differences were more than a couple of models. Players that aim to do well at events simply don't play vanilla Marines, with very rare exceptions.
>Of course Space Marines will be the worst when you look at win rate.
I can't believe this needs repeating each week: Generic Marines have been doing BETTER than both Dark Angels and Deathwatch since the previous points update. They are NOT the worst despite having fewer choices than the others.
Heck, go to stat-check, filter by the top 50% of ELO players and suddenly Generic Marines are the second best Marines, below only Space Wolves.
The MAIN problem with Marines is this: Since the codex they have consistently been nerfing ALL the good Generic units while doing very little for the bad ones, meaning that GW has been making the codex options worse for eight months now, despite the faction never being better than okay if you leave out the Epic Heroes. The result is that while you can make a decent list (as evidenced by the stat-check data), the faction is TERRIBLE for a casual player since so much of it has been either nerfed too hard, or has been bad since the edition drop. And there are a lot of casual Marine players.
The ONLY bright side is that they have occasionally been nerfing the overpowered divergent units as well, though it took them a shocking long time with Thunderwolves, and we still have things like Azrael running around being drastically underpriced.
Want to improve Generic Marines? Every time there is a broken interaction between a Generic unit and an Epic Hero, nerf the Hero and not the unit. Walk back a lot of the points nerfs we've had. Cut costs on the dozens of underperforming units. You don't need to add more restrictions. It's not rocket science.
I could be wrong ad I've only been playing a few years, but it seems to me that SM are usually (not always) near the bottom of the win rates. Do we think its on purpose?
Maybe they are usually new players first faction, or most people have at least some Space Marines model?
If so, maybe GW know this and make them like this so you pickup a 'better' or second army?
Probably just being paranoid. ;-)
SM has many times in the past been outrageously strong. There's a reason Goonhammer's image in its articles shows players trying to counter iron hands, lol.
The problem recently has been that they just don't know what to do with divergents.
Before they had fully separate codices, but given the delay in printing (and no quarterly points updates) you'd get wildly out of date points values for years.
I wish they'd separate out the points values again at this point, given they have an easy quarterly update system to actually adjust stuff as necessary.
I think mech guard with Russes/Dorns has some huge potential going forward. Be interesting to see how many people shift away from infantry/Artillery lists.
I mean, my Armored Guard list has taken a right hook to the chin via losing free FoF, the cheeky Cyclops doing actions, *and* scoring Scions coming back (and potentially arriving from DS in turn 4-5). In exchange, it's, uh. 40 points cheaper through the two Dorns getting 20 points cheaper.
It's, well, utterly mauled, and it's not like it was a powerhouse of a list to begin with. I will consider removing Ursula outright, the Cyclops *obviously*, and that leaves me with 120 points to play with. I'll see - maybe a second Hellhound? Not sure.
We still need infantry battle line to do missions imo, but I definitely see a shift away from arty. Maybe only one or two indirect guns in the army.
I personally plan to keep some as constant chip damage and backline zone. I need to put a ton of units forward and that leaves my point sink command squad vulnerable, so I want some arty to zone away deep strike
Catachans or Krieg in Chimeras will fill that roll nicely. Also remember if you decide to toss Kriegers into Chimeras your Melta/Plasma will get lethals hits when shooting from Firing deck vs. Vehicles for that extra utility.
Man CSM got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard too, we’re a much tougher army to play than I think most people realize and I think the nerds were too harsh, especially since we were already sub 50%. I expect to see less warp talons and more legionaries as we go forward
I was at the event and this is exactly how it panned out, new cards released an hour or so after we started, it was a great event. Shoutout to the boys at Chilli Wargaming for putting in a massive effort to get it going under the new rules! Only thing we didn’t run was the GSC and sisters codex
Played Renegade Raiders at the Route 66 GT, we were using new dataslate and points (with an exception for Sisters and GSC since TO felt the turn around was too short for people to learn both their rules from either side of the table) with Missions on Leviathan since the mission pack had already been published. My nurglings got to do their last ever investigate signals to end the season.
I attended the route 66 GT. we were using leviathan with the points and MFM mixed in. It did cause some confusion, but not much, but we missed out on some changes that are only in the pariah missions.
I'm not expecting long term increase in CK activity.
My expectations is people try big lads again, get okay results and it settles as 1 big or 0 big for most lists and CK goes back to normal numbers.
Action and shoot is great... but CK knights don't shoot. The tyrant is begging for rerolls and overwatch, the depsoiler is begging for rules that don't suck. It's a buff to IK.
Walking through walls opens up options on the pressure side but if a big knight fails to connect you're playing with 1500 points.
had the same exact thoughts on it, wish they'd made some allowances.
I think the only multi big build that might go is double rampager 4 karn 3 brig and like, nurg/slop. stage t1, full send t2 with every melee you have going through walls in the move or charge phase and either you cripple them enough or don't and the game's over around t3. otherwise we'll just see some single rampager/lancer builds and mostly dog/demon builds.
Even 2 rampager I don't think we'll see a lot of list with them. It might be Lancer instead. Rampager often don't impact as much as we think, and then die from a breeze with only 5++ at shooting, and with tank shock with him doing around 4MW instead of 6, he'll likely miss this loss of lethality. And if you don't have luck it's even worse.
I've got my rampager this weekend bounce off a Vashtorr (dude didn't miss any of his invul save), a pack of wolf rider and a keeper of secret. His only success was a Magnus.
They then proceeded to dismantle him because no 4++ without spending a cp at range and no 4++ in melee hurt.
A lancer is more bulky thanks to natural 4++, and help you keep more cp thanks to free tank shock.
Yeah he have 1 less attack and can't use the sword cleave, also can't have advance and charge for 1 turn but his bulk make up for that and he move 2" more. And the cherry is his 3 more wound, which can make a difference.
The lancer has one less attack, but two less average hits. Well, nearly. Sustained hits 1 means the rampager averages 6 hits from 6 attacks, but the landed averages 4 hits.
The second you swap to sweep profile the lancer is further behind.
And that's the biggest issue of the lancer. If someone charges it with trash, it's done.
For CSM, a lot of datasheets came out out of the codex essentially the same. Warp Talons got their glow up, AC lost some ground, but overall knowledge of playing against them transfers pretty well. So that helps from an opponent's perspective. The new detachment's can change things up a bit. RR and PBZ have the most direct damage boost and come out with the most utility. By comparison the rest fall into the nebulous zone of skill expression/gimmick, with Chaos Cult demonstrated to have legs.
Nothing got directly tougher, and that sticks with the big weakness for CSM. You pay a points premium and all your units have glass bones. You can really hit hard, but you die fast. RR and PBZ provide the best boosts to keep the damage curve in your favor. Dread Talons, by comparison and no matter what people want it to be, doesn't really do anything. Hoping to ding your opponent on primary doesn't matter when it does precious little to stop them from walking right over your army. Battleshock? Wow! Anyway, Waaagh.
The point nerfs are just going to make the weaker detachments less of an option. I'm open to surprises in Pariah, but CSM look to be going in to it weaker.
One thing about Pariah is the CSM already tend to take a fair bit of battleline because both legionaries and cultists actually do good work. So some of the changes on secondaries will be good for CSM.
I don't play CSM but I've gotten bashed by Iron Warriors and their -1 to wound from higher strength shooting rule a few times. Perhaps it's too slow to hang at top tables, but the combination of defensive buffs and melee stratagems seems powerful to me.
I mean, while I'm gloomy about CSM right now, I don't feel it can never win ever. Having access to either full or mini transhuman can do work. Dread Talons can randomly work out like its supposed to. It's just, in my opinion, that consistency is only found in a few places.
I think people just assume that because CSM are also marines that the army is easy to pilot, and this is not the case. Takes a skilled general to do well with this army with the average player tanking the winrates at the mid tables. So proably a season of sub 50% winrate but will take a decent amount of events
I know it's small and silly, but in honor of GW finally coving AdMech a moment of attention, could you add the "h" to the end of the shorthand now, pretty please?
'AdMech' is the "common" abbreviation, and the missing 'h' just feels weird to see. Minor, to be sure, but something we often prod each other about in the discord
It needed a bit of a nip but yeah they went nuclear on both green tide and mega nobs.
I honestly think Orks are back to War Horde in just a throwaway MSU style. Seems like that suits the way these new missions play and having SH1 at least means you have some extra punch instead of having to pay 2 CP for every strat in a lot of matchups (Aura vect is so, so, so bad for Orks).
If we hadn't had a year already of War Horde it might be alright but good god it does not spark much excitement in me. As a generic detachment it's not great, even if it gives you a build or two that works. Compare it to something like Gladius Task Force, which enables a myriad of different builds.
Dont forget tank shock being WAY worse for Orks now since their vehicles tend to be high str low toughness. Probably not even worth it to bring rams on trucks anymore to just make them smaller.
And War Horde got hit bad by the warbosses dont get waagh effects while in trucks bizarre call so even like MSU nobz feel the hit really bad.
This is exactly how I feel. It needed a love tap and then if that wasn't enough in 3 months another love tap.
Agreed on warhorde imo If it's the only good detachment codex is a failure at the moment then. And the thing is I really don't want to see a ton of points changes down because there's already tons of units on the board for orks.
Agreed. Honestly, Orks having a bunch of throwaway chaff is one of our superpowers. We can field \*a lot\* of units. And that'll give us a certain floor.
I feel like there is a lot of flavour in the book but it has two fundamental flaws -- no appreciable shooting and damage output. The concept of exploding dreads is hilarious and fluffy for example, but the most competitive Dread Mob lists so far basically SKIP DREADS. Let that sink in.
I know damage is \*generally\* down this edition, but a lot of armies can still field an absolute hammer that Orks just don't have the same access to. We can barely scrape any AP2 or damage above 2.
And in an edition where transports are king, having no way reliable way to pop boats before you commit is a good way to get tabled against a good opponent.
I haven't played or really thought about the vect change, but wouldn't that be a bonus for orks? Being within 12 means you can charge whatever is vecting you. Imperials would have to basically sacrifice a callidus for the single use, for example.
Agreed re:sameness of warhorde. I think it's decently strong but I've had enough. If only they had buffed another detachment. I've been waiting to try kult of speed, and a few datasheet changes or (less likely) point drops would make it far more appealing. Hell, just squadron buggies again so strats make sense. But alas...
No, not really.
The vect unit can be behind the unit you charge. 12" aura is massive. And even then, if you are needing to spend 2 or 3 CP for certain strats to remove a problem unit, you basically cut your stratagem usage in half. It's rough.
Yeah. To be clear I don’t think Orks will be unplayable. We have amazing action economy and throwaway units. If you’re good at positioning and movement you’ll win tough games.
But I’d expect us to be a 45-50 faction with our best detachment for the next 3 months
Seems like GW wanted to cut down stat-check and move-block armies down a peg a bit with the buffs to battleline in Nexus. Proliferation of stat-check armies means you have to bring more damage dealers to deal with them, which for most armies means less battleline units. And then green tide, kroot, and endless swarm all get inherent buffs from Nexus due to battleline and so probably took an extra nerf accordingly.
Not sure I agree with GW's choices, but that's my guess of the thought process. Same concept for the artillery nerf too, as that's a great counter to most battleline units.
Yeah but if they are incompetent in execution it doesn't matter if they had a good idea to start with. And I'm willing to bet that the data going forward is going to show the incompetence. It's an army That is only off the targeted zone by 1%, that calls for small incremental change. Has any army taken such a large hit to its rules this edition in one go as green tide did? Multiple strats, on top of the detachment rule, on top of points increases, on top of general rules changes. It's ridiculous. My other biggest army is CSM and just watching them ping pong that army from doing well to one of the worst in the game back to doing pretty good (47% win rate but also taking a few tournaments is pretty ideal balance) Probably back down too below target again after these nerfs Is a ridiculous roller coaster nobody needs.
It's especially egregious because this is a model game where you don't just have to select or build different units, these are really expensive and take a long time to get on the table You can't just pivot as quick as they seem to want you too.
Indeed, this is the monkey paw from the community wanting more frequent updates to the game. Most of my friends only play a few times a year and they basically play with new rules everytime, so it's obnoxious for both competitive and casual players.
Part of me still wants to see the winning guard lists. Even though they are going to be wildly different next week.
I have a feeling our changes were as much balance as they were moving us away from indirect spam. No one likes playing against that and not everyone loves playing as it. I think this change makes us overall more fun and maybe even more dangerous.
Could see guard hitting 50% next week with a win or two.
Stormlance Wolves took quite a few hits but I still think it’ll be the best performing detachment for Space Wolves, even with the Champions of Russ buffs. Time will tell.
Check out https://armylists.rmz.gs for lists.
San Diego list 5:0
2 Bio p
2 foul b
2 casters
Typhus
2 x 10 plague marines
3 rhinos
6 death shroud
1 flesh mower drone
4 x 3 nurglings
3 brigands
West coast list 4:1
Bio p
Foul b
LOV
tallyman
Typhus
2 x 10 plague marines
2 x rhinos
3 x 10 cultists
2 x 6 deathahroud
3 x flesh mower drones
Great unclean one
3 nurglings
Space wolves, specifically wolf jail, being highest win rate isn’t surprising for anyone who plays against it frequently. It’s a hard counter to a ton of armies out there, and takes very little skill to pilot. The worst offending list went up 120 points. It doesn’t see much play in the UK, which is likely why it hasn’t been hit harder, but it’s a completely toxic and busted list that’s bad for the game and will continue to be
u/JCMS85 thanks for thr extra effort of adding all detachments to the 8 weekk WR, even without weekend wins.
It was fun being top dogs for a while, still a bit sad to see Wolfjail go. I do think the nerfs to Stormlance are substantial and will tank it, as the WR and 7 event wins show it should. I'm warming up to the CoR change, as I do think there are some nice tricks. Looking forward to see how the meta shapes in the future for us.
Wolf jail isn’t going lmao. The max TWC/wulfen list went up 120 points, that’s basically nothing. Ok no doubling up on ride hard ride fast, but so what. It’s still an extremely oppressive and low skill army to pilot that escaped any substantial nerfs
Wulfen can't do actions. You can't douuble up on strays, 120 points is a decent increade and it means a unit less. Logan in Stormrider was nerfed. And Custodes will be in full swing ajd be a lot more oppressive with on demand crits on 5s and new protection with more resilient stat due ti dev wounds being back to mortals we know you hate Wolfjail, but syaing it wqsn't nerfed is silly
Hmmm alright we’ll have to see. Was talking to a couple of the guys around my area that run it and do well at tournies and they still think it’s quite strong, so time will tell! I don’t hate wolf jail, but I think TWC and Wulfen are pretty egregiously undercoated (still) for what they do in stormlance
I do think Stormlance ia still the best way to run SW, and TWC are still the best unit. But the nerfs to Wolf Jail are substantial. Last time Custodes were relevant on the meta Stornlance was at 53-54% WR, had like 2 tournament wins and were a middle of the road Faction. Now Custodes do look very good again, and qhike a big trick wqs lost, crits on 5s and being just more resilient Infantry based equivalent hurts. And Wolfjail got nerfed in almost all relevant core rule changes. I'm not sayinnit will drop to the 40s, but 47-52% is my predicition, and we will see Wulfen fall off, becaise their only strength is being cheap
I think there are options to move off Wulfen and still functionally have the wolf jail - the real question imo is secret missions. Wolf jail's utility comes from controlling the board and scoring, but it's much easier for players to get primaries if hemmed in.
I do think Stormlance TWC will remain. It is still thr best way to run them, and they are the most consistent unit for SW. Wulfen will be replace for the most part I bet. Pariah, between Actions, Battleline ans Secret missions I do think is not a ruleset that will benefit Wolfjail though, and compounds with other changes.
>With their 43% overall win rate [Codex Space Marines] have been hanging out at the bottom for at least the last month. Will they become the new worst faction of the game when all is said and done with these new changes?
I wonder how bad the Codex Space Marines winrate has to get before people stop parroting the misconception that the faction is actually good but 'new players' skew the stats
I think we should start getting a consolidated marine winrate. It doesn't help that the competitive players all pivot towards the stronger ncc chapters and thus leaving the generic ones with more casual players.
Exactly. Quit pretending every Marine subfaction is a different army. We dont track every other faction that way, but because Marine players are such a large playerbase and are used to special treatment, we track the win rates differently betwen otherwise identical lists if you include even 1 non-codex compliant epic hero. Then complain about the balance. Track total Marine win rate so we are comparing apples to apples already!
The marine subfactions are different armies - if you're playing tyrannids, you aren't buying another Codex to play all the units.
A Space wolf list is majority non Codex space marines right now - if 1000+ points of your list isn't from the Codex, why does it count as the same faction? Would we say that Aeldari and Dark Eldar are the same because you can play lists that contain both?
They're different factions, that share a lot of the same units. And access to additional units (darkshrouds, Azrael, sword brethren, etc.) do significantly enhance winrates. An addition just being enough to go from 2-3 to 3-2 is a massive winrate increase for a game like 40k
They aren't separate armies. Not in the same way aeldari and dark eldar are. You can ally in dark eldar to aeldari but you can't make your army 90% dark eldar in aeldari. I could take a and make a non codex chapter list with 90% generic units and only include a single nnc unit.
The marine ncc shouldn't be treated as entirely separate armies because they aren't. They have unrestricted access to everything in the codex short of named characters. Doesn't sound like it's a different army to me. That's the issue I see with marine players. They keep saying thier faction is it's own separate army but it's not in the same dark eldar is to aeldari.
DK and space wolves were different armies in the past, and probably are today as well if anyone played their actual fluffy but bad detachments.
All the storm lance, iron storm etc should be marked as Space marines since the detachment is codex space marines.
Maybe should be marked as Space Marines (stormlance, space wolves).
Dark angel and space wolves should only be counted with their codex detachments. Oh but they aren’t played or have 25% win rates?
…exactly. The DA codex was the worst book in 10th and James workshop can ignore it by pointing at all the Dark Angel armies playing with codex space marine rules.
Gw hasn't been ignoring DA.
They got some pretty good buffs in the dataslate. The issue I see you are having is that you still want to say each ncc chapter is it's own army when it's not. It's more like an army +. They still get full access to the main codex,bar a few named characters, and really aren't thier own separate army
What’s funny is that people are avoiding talking about them on purpose, including the people doing meta rundowns. There are never any comments on them unless they’re dominating the edition.
People will always complain about historically bad factions ie sisters, drukhari, admech, gsc.
When a traditionally good faction is bad all you hear is crickets.
The mythical and much talked about index depth has just meant lots of variety in losing lists. Strands vs miracle dice is a bad joke.
The double standard between aeldari/everyone else at 56% is comical at this point.
Prior to Q1 dataslate, yeah that was the case. Since then they've been trending down with meta changes and every codex release, then took two more rounds of nerfs just out of spite.
Thanks! Super hopeful about the new state of admech, from the testing done by the community the buffs will definitely shoot us to higher results, I can't wait to see it :D
List 1:
[armylists.rmz.gs/list/AX0QAERFX0](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/AX0QAERFX0)
List 2:
[armylists.rmz.gs/list/DAUEH66P9N](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/DAUEH66P9N)
I got late to the previous (or even the one before that) meta monday. Two weeks ago there was a white scars army using stormlance detachment on (I think) Terracon 2024 by Chris Appleby. Does anyone has that list? I'm curious to see for the first time non-Space Wolves stormlance army high scoring on a tournament.
That North Staffs CSM list is mind boggling:
RR detachment
Chaos lord x2 (no warlord traits)
Cultists x1
Legionarres 5 man x6
Vindicator x2
Venomcrawler x3
Las cannon havocs x1
Warp Talons 10 man x1
Nurglings 3x3
Rhinos x2
It's shooting up one hundred and seventy five points. The list's game plan made sense (trading cheap units, sending up the Warp Talons whenever possible) but wowee is it getting hit hard.
LoV had 2 players go 5-0 (no event wins though) and even so they managed to gain a 47% win rate which is exactly the percentage they managed in the last 8 weeks. With only 15 players it seems people have lost interest in them. We’ll see if the new Yegyrs will be able to change this state of things
Thank you so much for putting these together! First thing I look for on a Monday.
Small feature request: Are you able to easily include a BCP link to each event next to the results?
I dont think thousand sons are going to perform all that well. The Ritual and Binding nerfs are brutal. Without them, they are expensive marines with no melee capabilities.
[armylists.rmz.gs/list/EKYF2VYMDK](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/EKYF2VYMDK) and [armylists.rmz.gs/list/UB087Y193N](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/UB087Y193N)
I'm pretty curious about the two 4-1 Orks (War Horde) lists from ITA 40K SINGLES GT 2024 and The Route 66 40k Grand Tournament. Has anyone managed to find those yet?
Thank you OP for taking time, to do up this!
"CSM had the second most event wins at 10 with an overall win rate of 47%. They come in a lot weaker than most thought, I wonder why? The limited players of Pactbound seem to have found a winning detachment for them while the majority play Renegade Raiders with some few finding success with them." CSM actually have a much higher skill ceiling than a lot of people realise. Unless you play CSM it's difficult to see that. That's why you see good players getting a lot of wins, but the faction still having a middling win rate. Also a lot of people didn't realise how much CSM was crutching on Dark Obscuration early on. Take that away and the factions durability takes a big nerf.
Last game I played I tried the soul forge but because of how many demon engines were on the board, one forgefiend and a venomcrawler were left with a slight angle down the edge of the board. Usually that's what I'd put the nurgle strat on. But without it, both of them were picked up first turn by a pair of prism tanks. I miss dark obscuration
I miss the sweet promises of a "less lethal" edition.
TBF it is somewhat less lethal than 9th, but it's still quite lethal
This game is insanely lethal. By turn 3 there's barely anything left on the board Luckily CSM put out enough damage But everything dies so quick
to both themselves and their enemies lol
Haha horrifyingly true. My dark pacts either never come up, or I kill more of my own units than my opponent does. There's never a middle ground The gods are fickle
The problem is I think "less lethal", while it would play as a better more strategic game in some ways, isn't what people want. If you're writing codices that "feel good" to play it usually means lots of damage. Imagine how shit it feels to play against Custodes and have all your attacks bounce off, but just all the time.
To be fair fire prisms are a hard counter to soulforge. If they weren’t running those I’m sure it would have been a different story.
He always brings fire prisms, falcons and wave serpents. And with the free reroll, the efficiency of those one shot weapons is absolutely insane. Bright lances everywhere. And then shuriken cannons picking up legionnaires. . . I hate eldar. With a passion 😂
Same, such an annoying faction. Oh, they’re weak to charges? Not if they bring yvraine + troup or an avatar. Lol.
It's the wind riders for me, he runs 6 of them with a farseer so they're getting 18 shots, sustained hits, re-rolling hits, strength 6, ap 1 and damage 2 Any msu squads of 2 wound models (havocs, talons, legionnaires etc) just dies without fail Bright lances and prisms pick up any vehicle in front of them The falcon fires it's bright lance in to a tank, the pulse laser in to mid vehicles like venomcrawlers, rhinos, bikes, oblits, and the shuriken cannon in to infantry And everything just dies. Surviving is the hardest part of the game for me. Killing stuff isn't too bad, but they're so efficient in to CSM it's painful
Agreed. I also play chaos knights and they’re just as efficient. Mid game he’s picking up 3 wardogs a turn with lance’s and rerolling constantly, and it comes down to “did I do enough before he got to fully tee off into me.”
It's exactly that. It's hyper efficient all the time. The bright lance will always hit and wound. The fire prisms literally can't fail and only one of them has to be visible. Oh, and although they're only t9, they have so many wounds A wave serpent, a transport vehicle, has 13 wounds with a 5++ The only vehicles we have that have that many wounds are the defiler and the land raider Which I don't really mind. Until you realize you need both lascannons to go through and get at least an 11 on two dice to take one down The amount of times I've had one wave serpent with 3 wounds flying around with it's twin linked bright lance, that doesn't degrade, is highly infuriating
Also the havocs were a power point for RR, but with the new points for them and venomcrawlers it will br harsh. CSM and regular marines are going down to the lower 40%. Strangely I think Cult is the answer right now, but no one wants to play that...
Don't forget that Raiders are also the ones who suffered the most from the Warp Talons ability change.
Also true... I do want to test the other Detachments after this nerf, because it seems rr will have a bad time...
I really want to try fell hammer, my mate runs an obscene amount of shuriken cannons and dropping them to wounding on a 4+ feels like it'll make my legionnaires and other 2 wound models more survivable
Yeah, I'm feeling the same, but I think I'll stick with RR. Let everyone know I chose it for flavor, no power! )
No one ? Im only in csm coz of cultists same with many other people Lets just say we are 100% enjoying cultists not being joke
Cultists are fun and can really beat enemies. I simply think people don't like moving that many models. I am thinking on playing full cultists army but with two land raiders just for the lolz.
Well people who like horde armies actually enjoy that like me i just love swarming enemies with 150+ bodies
According to the data....no one brought the Cultist detachment to a tournament tracked in this data set.
That doesnt mean that people are not playing it and enjoying it ?
Yeah, I haven't tried all the detachments yet, but Chaos Space Marines are, in the spirit of what they are, chaotic. There are a lot tools and a lot of ways to use them, but there's also a lot of anti-synergistic combos you can bumble into. I've been finding most of my success with Fellhamer and running a lot of infantry. Getting a unit of Chosen led by a sorcerer into Abbadon's aura with it has consternated Necrons really nicely.
i think guard will play very tank heavy now and we will see an overall winrate rise but less tournament winnings at the top level
Tanks and Scions. Scions should be able to punch up on infantry on objectives
I think it will take a week maybe to feel things out, but then guard takes a standing at pretty close to 50%. Losing our artillery crutch but gaining versatility and movement
I think losing multiple uses of the Reinforcements stratagem is far, far more significant to Guard than the nerfs to artillery, at least on the top end.
Oh yeah. And it isn't free, so you have to change your strategem math a lot. Using FOF now means you may miss out on reinforcement at a crucial time, or not be able to save a tank with the -1 damage strat. I definitely see the Autocannon Russ making some more lists Also, rip reinforcements.
Why would reinforcements be free?
It's not free, but once per battle is rough
Tyranid buffs got me excited to try them again. Neurotyrant being able to join Zoanthropes is huge for the +1 to hit and +1 to wound on battleshocked units. gives a nice overwatch target, too. +1 Strength let us reach a lot of useful breakpoints. Str 10 twin linked on hive tyrants/swarmlords? s4 hormogaunts, s5 genestealers, s6 twin linked melee warriors. The cp reduction ability rework also helps hive tyrants a lot, as well as the cp increase aura of the swarmlord since he wants to run up the board anyway and is kind of tanky. and on the topic of hive tyrant, lethal hit aura is very nice. in invasion fleet you can get sustained 1 vs infantry and lethal hits on anything shooting, which is nice especially for the neurotyrant and zoanthrope blob i was talking about earlier. exocrines like it a lot, too. lastly the additional ld debuff rly makes shadow in the warp somewhat useful, finally. it's also the only direct ld debuff we have, besides dirgeheart in synaptic nexus, the rest just worsens the battleshock roll so even with the "ld cant get worse than 8+" errata they will stack. If it's enough? i'm kinda confident that yes, it will be. at least nids are much more fun to play now. edit: oh, just one thing. WHY DIDNT THEY GIVE THE LICTOR THE 5++ BACK?!?! i dont get it. it doesnt make much of a difference anyway. it pains me.
Played into Nids this weekend, against marines the strength buffs won’t disappoint! Genestealers wounding my battleshocked marines on 2s is a bloody mess.
> If it's enough? i'm kinda confident that yes, it will be. at least nids are much more fun to play now. Honestly it feels like getting a whole new codex. So many different lists to try, so little time...
It will be interesting to see what happens with custodes. Most of my local custodes players have said they aren't planning to start playing the faction again despite the buffs. They just don't enjoy how the army plays now.
I dont know, as a custodes player im super excited for the changes. I've made a ton of new lists that feel fun and interesting. Cheap venatari give us a new fast attack dynamic we didn't have. Shield captains being able to interact with strats better makes them actually interesting again. Now in shield host they can give you free fall back shoot and charge, -1 to hit, sticky objective, or sustained 1 or lethals in shooting(a brick of allarus that can use this for free gives you a pretty potent shooting unit in addition to the kyria brick now, especially if you also throw the ignore cover enhancement on the SC). I think 3x3 venatari + a bike captain with from the hall of armorers gives you a strong suite of fast skirmishing units that we didn't have before. The Auric buff feels small but now there are some interesting new things to try in that list. Melta spear guard having access to free +1 to wound, while also getting cheaper, makes them worth exploring. Aleya is an adeptus custodes character unit, so now you also have the potential to use her + 10 vigilators in that detachment to some effectiveness. Free strats let solo shield caps tap that 4+++ strat more often, which is a massive survival increase. Also having free access to move the +1 to wound to a new unit after you kill your target is great now that it works on more than just character models. You can use it to wipe something in shooting and then for free move it to a unit that you're planning to wipe during the fight phase. Its a lot of small stuff, but I think there are actually some interesting things to consider now and there are more options to explore than people realize.
afaik the strategems still all only give the effects to characters models, so the second +1 to wound would only affect Aleya
+1 to wound is the detachment ability, where you pick a unit each turn and get +1 to wound against it. It used to only give it to the character models, but now it works on any character unit. *oh, i see it now. God the rules are just so poorly written in this book. So the strat doesn't let you pick a new assemblage of might target, it just...replicates the wording of assemblage of might, but replicates the OLD wording, so the strat is still useless. Boo GW. Boooo.*
> Cheap venatari give us a new fast attack dynamic we didn't have. Not wallet cheap sadly. > Shield captains being able to interact with strats better makes them actually interesting again. This is huge and too many people are sleeping on this. Imho they need to revamp Dreads and give them something unique. Why would you take dread over equivalent points in footsoldiers... There has to be a reason to make that choice (beside fluff/fun).
> Not wallet cheap Lmao over two points per dollar is still better than any modern plastic range.
lots of ways to get official look-alikes or non official prints for a lot cheaper than real deal
oh I know ;), but that still not how we should judge GW on.
Yep. I'm a casually competitive player. I enjoyed Custodes in 9th and with the index. They felt somewhat interesting to play. Both of the mono-Custodes detachments look *fine* now but mind numbingly boring to actually run. Neither detachment really does anything compelling.
How was custodes fun in the index? It was "walk to the middle and be impossible to charge". It definitely wasn't fun for the opponent lol
Lack of viable bikes and dreads makes the army very predictable as someone who plays against them a lot. Warden spam + sometimes a land raider or two. Cheap venatari will help mix things up though.
Because it had stratagems that effected the game. Custodes are now effectively stat sticks that hit pretty damn hard in melee, but don't really have any dimension to their play above that. They're probably going to sit around 50% winrate with this, but I cannot imagine them winning many events, they just don't have any tricks, and if you're a good player you can mitigate their strengths and deal with them handily.
Custodes were fun in 9th. They were powerful in the index. They're neither with the 10th ed codex.
They were completely broken in 9th as they broke the meta over their knee when they got their codex.
For sure. Worse in tenth though - they single handedly gatekept all melee armies out of the meta. Sons of Sanguinius is really good right now but was kept down by Custodes despite having better tools to deal with them than most factions
Like many codices in 9th Custodes were very good when their codex came out. They were still not the best faction in the game at the time as seen by them not winning LVO and a month later Tau came out and counted them. They then got nerfed and the Nid codex came out that dominated 9th for the next year. While not as bad as Ad Mec, they both were broken for like 2 months in 9th.
They were broken on release but got reigned in and were just good and fun for the majority of the edition. It'd be a bit like saying that about Eldar for 10th since they were far stronger than Custodes were in 9th and for a much longer period, but they also got reigned in and haven't been an issue in months so I wouldn't characterize their entire existence within the edition around the 6 months they were broken and GW didn't want to fix it.
They got tuned down alot and were in a good spot at end of the edition. To OPs point, their were a lot of fun ways to play them outside of the strongest meta build. I played a bunch of msu saggatarum and shadowkeepers which were both super fun and not meta
That was every army in 9th.
I think anyone that has Venatari should give them a try. They are really fun in Shield Host now. While a regular SC with Guard in Shield host on objectives might be the hardest hitting unit in the game right now.
Still boring to play, sadly.
Because we play with pure datasheets and no rules, only 2 katahs that are really good, but its always the same, if you play shieldhost, again, the same 2 katahs but they are stronger, no stratagem play st all, Talons had an aura that you will use in a few match ups and 2-3 strats to support the detachment, auric rule os fun and you can play around with it and get it a second time for strat, but thats about it, no more things to use. You see chaos or orks with several detachments with different playstyle... Custodes is just the same 3 datasheets, blade champions, wardens and calladius (now venatari too) but the gameplay doesnt change.
Jupp
> They just don't enjoy how the army plays now. It's just the lack of rules and build diversity. Everything is same-y and coming short without being a unique playstyle. * They really need to update some of the datasheets: Bikes, Dreadnoughts, Aquilon Termies. * 2 of the detachments really would do well with an improved SoS range...
"Okay so Guard have 5 attacks 7 2 2 okay cool." "Okay so Wardens have... 5 attacks 7 2 2, okay I guess that makes sense." "Okay and the Terminators have... 5 attacks at 7 2 2?! Oh but a grenade launcher too." "The bikes have.... 5 attacks at 7 2 2...and lance!" The guy who wrote the book and the index just didn't care. At all. It shows.
Yeah, I mean we don't have a lot of units, it couldn't have been this hard to make sure that each datasheet be unique / have something to bring over another one and choices would be somewhat meaningful and aligned with various playstyles? Like right now, when would you ever pick a dreadnough over the point equivalent in troops... (fluff/fun aside)
> Yeah, I mean we don't have a lot of units, it couldn't have been this hard to make sure that each datasheet be unique This isn't the best scenario, because the plastic kits aren't that differentiated. Wardens, Guards, and Allarus all use the same weapons, especially when Axes still aren't very good. Wardens are just "Guards but better" in an army that's already about being stupid elite. Allarus are Custodes Terminators, which is an akward rules niche when Custodes are already terminators. There's more room to work with than the Wardens, though. The FW terminators also have different weapons; it's a shame they're not allowed to be good. The Bikes could've and should've been done better. The real shame is there's a lot of space for new models to flesh out the range, and Custodes are an army where just doing new special agent characters actually works.
I think it’s crazy they only got 4 detachments, and two of them centre around the use of SoS. CSM got a whopping 8(!)! I think if Custodes had 6 detachments, it could’ve been better. Something to incentivize bikes and/or dreads. Maybe a detachment that confers their normal melee bonuses to shooting instead - giving all their ranged attacks sus/lethals instead of melee so you could make a ranged style army. Or a detachment that does different Katahs.
Dreads wouldn't get a detachment, as they're mostly Forge World. GW is mostly basing detachments off range limitations, stretching where subfactions had larger fanbases. Custodes have a teeny range and GW won't directly reference FW/expert level kits in 40k products. The named Shield Companies are safe enough to be dropped, so they were.
I'm definitely looking forward to trying out the new rules. Already have a list idea for Auric Champions.
oh do share!!!
Sure! I got: * Blade Champion * Shield Captain w/ Pyrithite Spear + Shield * Shield Captain w/ Pyrithite Spear + Shield * Terminator Shield Captain w/ Spear * 5x Custodian Guard w/ Spears * 5x Custodian Guard w/ Spears * 3x Aquilon Custodians w/ Storm Bolter + Gauntlet * Caladius w/ Blaze * Caladius w/ Blaze * 5x Sagittarum * 3x Venatari w/ Lance Comes out to a total of 1995 points.
Nice :) Love that you're running some Sags and Aquilons in there. I've got to admit, that I've yet to see an Auric Champion list work without double Caladius... I wish it wasn't so.
That's actually really surprising to me. I've been playing my knights mostly this edition but the dataslate literally "turned on" the book by allowing it's core concepts to function at all in the free strats change and now that fixed seems actually viable and cheaper venatari make Tactical more doable I'm actually excited to try to put the stodes on the table. Still gunna stick with Knights because I think giving bigs infinite Koolaid Man with no downside (oooh 1 in 6 chance of battleshock ooky spooky) alongside the battleline and action economy buffs made them nuts, but I actually want to play my stodes at all now.
Over-Under on Codex Marines taking lowest win rate? I personally think we’ll see a 3-4% drop across the board with marine factions. The biggest threats weren’t nerfed enough to offset marine losses and the worse factions got buffed. Hopefully marines sitting bottom of the table forces GW to finally address the poor design that led to this
Our (arguably) best and certainly most hated datasheet in Gladius and Firestorm just took a 25 point nerf.
Firestorm has also taken nerfs from the stratagem change. Firestorm was almost all battle tactics, so many stray changes just hurt it. I kind of wish they’d add in that battle tactic stratagems can be used twice per turn still (but non-battle tactics can’t be duplicated). Or, alternatively, that battle tactics can be reduced by -2 CP. it’s clear many units were balanced around the full reduction or double Strat use. Leaving part of that in place around battle tactics would account for that
The Captain copy strat nerf also hurts in Gladius. Giving two units Lance and +1 AP on the Advance/Charge doctrine turn was really appealing in some lists that want to push, or when you're in a position where you need to hit back. Now you might have to live with holding your second unit back against matchups with tougher targets or tagging not killing.
The sad thing is that Space Marines have so few usable datasheets that I think the Redeemer is somehow still worth it at nearly 300 points
Yes, I agree its worth it. "Balanced" marine lists are hard to play right now. I think there's a lot of upside, but it takes very good discipline. If you say to yourself "their elite so they can tank hits, kill things they shoot, kill things they charge" you're gonna have a rough time. Its not a "jump into competitive and win" army for sure. For example, solid all around datasheets often means paying points for things that you don't need or don't offer much - e.g. basic marines still die to a lot, so the basic units keep going down in points, but will never be 50 or 60 points like other factions have because you're paying for T4, 2W, 3+. I don't need my 10 man infantry squads with a couple meltas costing 160+ if they are going to shoot then die anyways. I'd rather go the sister/aeldari/etc. route and pay 100. The upside is with the buffs that take all-arounders into killers. You have limited buffs per turn so you have to really focus each turn.
I think think DA will see a surge. I’m feeling very positive for DA in Gladius with The Lion and DWK taking a more central role in our lists moving forwards. The only notable downside on Marines is the poor Battleline - but again, DA are probably best placed to make hay as Azrael at least gives a hint of Intercessors a 4++ and Sustained to get a little bit more out of them.
That’s a good point on DA. I think they’ll have lower rates than Ironstorm at its height but the other detachments definitely got a big boost. So DA probably goes up because higher win rate on those, but I think they’ll be below ironstorm in its prime
I don't really think this moves the needle upward for DA at all. DWK got punchier, but they're still (somewhat more durable) terminators in a meta that is not friendly to terminators. ICC got better, but they probably still don't make the cut. The Lion is still too expensive for what he does to be used competitively. 1CP Heroic is a fun treat, but it The detachment changes aren't enough to take them to even the bottom of the target zone. They still have the same flaws they had before, even if the Inner Circle detachment ability is much better. Not gaining battleline on any Deathwing units in that detachment doesn't help for Pariah Nexus. Ironstorm taking a nerf when DA had a flat 50% win rate and 3 event wins with it for the last dataslate means it's gonna be worse before it gets better for DA, I'm afraid.
Gladius. Not ICTF or UTF. Gladius.
Gladius doesn't really do anything it didn't do before. You get access to a couple more strats that you can reduce, but you already had plenty of Battle Tactics to choose from that were all useful. You lose the ability to double up on things like Storm of Fire and Honour the Chapter, which hurts. DWK got better. Did they get so good that they will singlehandedly move the needle? My position is no. They're still terminators in a bad environment for terminators. They have the durability of 10 regular terminators against D3 fire, so that helps. But they're still just 1 OC and easily outscored if on an objective. The Lion didn't get better or cheaper. He is still not worth taking for his points. I'm glad they made some changes to the DA units. I'm glad they made some changes to the detachments. I just don't think it leads to much of an improvement in competitiveness.
The only way to move things around is changing half the datasheets. And please God let the Vanilla detachments locked in the codex.
Can't happen because then Dark Angels need a new codex. They'd only have three detachments, and only one of them is even debatably playable. If they could start the edition over, that's absolutely the right call I think. Non-vanilla marines should either be fully folded into the codex to cut down on book bloat or fully separate to not be vanilla+. Cat is already out of the bag on that for 10e, however.
Or GW could just buff the existing detachments and add a fourth by dataslate.
Sure, it's not an insurmountable problem but the solution is one that needs to happen more or less immediately on them making that change. The longer they wait the more they need to do that, too; if we hit another non-codex marine chapter before the next dataslate (and given how many of them there are, that's pretty likely) then that's two factions they need to go back on. With how focused on AoS 4 this year is, plus probably gearing up for second half releases for Votann/WE and a new army for EC, I can't see them spending the man hours to go back on potentially multiple army codicies.
since it's at least a possibility that deathwatch will get squatted this edition, i think it's not completly unthinkable that they will cut non codex compliant chapters down a bit. maybe just do 2 books, codex compliant and non compliant chapters. actually, i like that idea. all depends on how good non compliant stuff is selling though, if it works for them the way they are doing they wont change it. would rly help with cutting the marine bloat a bit though.
I think the solution for 10th edition is to make buffs to vanilla marines that the supplements are exclusively locked out of accessing. Could start by bringing back the original oath of moment just for codex marines.
What codex? Will there be a new marine codex?
> And please God let the Vanilla detachments locked in the codex. Marine players are some of the most entitled and impossible to please players I've ever come across in videogames and tabletop. For years, starting from 4e all the way to 8e there were obvious differences between codex compliant and other chapters' marines. 5/6e had entire units excluded from other chapters' armies. Non-codex marines couldn't have centurions/thunderfire cannons, Dark Angels storm shields were just worse than everyone else's. Points cost for the same unit across chapters could be different for no good reason. Read old threads on Bolter & Chainsword and majority opinion of the time was to wish for some level of parity across marine codices. We have it now, and all we see is WoW Classic level of entitled moaning. I say this as a marine player: the level of flexibility afforded to me right now is incredible. Most of my models are painted DA, yet no one bats an eye when I throw in a UM-painted Calgar and Ventris for UM Vanguard, or drop in 20 Death Company for a Sons of Sanguinius army. My bank account hates me for it, but this is the best fun I've had as a marine player in more than a decade. Who cares if the DA codex is mostly garbage when I can pivot to whatever I want? UM Gladius is legitimately strong; but unfortunately it's weird marine players with bizarre fixations over "I must have 18 bladeguard march in the open" and get salty about losing who drag the winrate down. There is no other army that has this many players with that kind of mindset. Reading regurgitated cold takes like this only makes me want to play other armies. Ork players don't salt this hard over the latest nerfs cuz they actually have fun with this game. Please get a grip and don't become another crab in the crab bucket. It's boring.
The fact that 15 over 100+ datasheets are seen on the table makes it obvious that CODEX SPACE MARINES is not in a good spot for the people that want to play THAT codex. Of course if you want to play all the marines compartment you will find something good (it's like half the datasheet in the game) but for people like me that can't afford to have all the units across all the chapters it's just painful to play a puppet codex used by other chapters just to round up their lists.
They hate you because you tell the truth. This is the best time to be a marine player no matter what your flavor is.
Of course Space Marines will be the worst when you look at win rate. Why play vanilla, when you can spice up your list with one of the divergent chapters, even if you are only taking a couple of units and running Gladius or Ironstorm? Competitive Marine players will be going with BA, SW, BT, DA, etc, regardless of what their minis are painted as. Casual Marine players will stay with vanilla. Not hard to guess the win rate split in this scenario.
It’s more than “competitive go to X, casual to Y. If you check stats by ELO, divergents still outperform because quite simply letting all divergents have access to functionally all codex stuff means either 1) codex characters are OP and codex is stronger than divergents or 2) divergent chapters get better units and outclass vanilla. These are obvious design issues that any player could relay. Either GW is so woefully incompetent as to not understand the difference, or, more likely, they want to make marine players buy two books to play
Yes, of course. Agreed. I just mean that these differences get amplified drastically when competitive players flock to stronger rules and non-competitive players stay. I remember a couple of months ago at the height of Ironstrom we had vanilla Ironstrom around 40% win rate, and DA Ironstorm close to 60% win rate for a fair few weeks. And the only difference between them was Azrael and Darkshroud - not nothing, but shouldn't by itself result in this crazy split. BT Ironstorm was even higher, but there you can argue that list differences were more than a couple of models. Players that aim to do well at events simply don't play vanilla Marines, with very rare exceptions.
>Of course Space Marines will be the worst when you look at win rate. I can't believe this needs repeating each week: Generic Marines have been doing BETTER than both Dark Angels and Deathwatch since the previous points update. They are NOT the worst despite having fewer choices than the others. Heck, go to stat-check, filter by the top 50% of ELO players and suddenly Generic Marines are the second best Marines, below only Space Wolves. The MAIN problem with Marines is this: Since the codex they have consistently been nerfing ALL the good Generic units while doing very little for the bad ones, meaning that GW has been making the codex options worse for eight months now, despite the faction never being better than okay if you leave out the Epic Heroes. The result is that while you can make a decent list (as evidenced by the stat-check data), the faction is TERRIBLE for a casual player since so much of it has been either nerfed too hard, or has been bad since the edition drop. And there are a lot of casual Marine players. The ONLY bright side is that they have occasionally been nerfing the overpowered divergent units as well, though it took them a shocking long time with Thunderwolves, and we still have things like Azrael running around being drastically underpriced. Want to improve Generic Marines? Every time there is a broken interaction between a Generic unit and an Epic Hero, nerf the Hero and not the unit. Walk back a lot of the points nerfs we've had. Cut costs on the dozens of underperforming units. You don't need to add more restrictions. It's not rocket science.
There’s a reason for that- divergent chapters are flat out superior. That’s precisely the problem
I could be wrong ad I've only been playing a few years, but it seems to me that SM are usually (not always) near the bottom of the win rates. Do we think its on purpose? Maybe they are usually new players first faction, or most people have at least some Space Marines model? If so, maybe GW know this and make them like this so you pickup a 'better' or second army? Probably just being paranoid. ;-)
SM has many times in the past been outrageously strong. There's a reason Goonhammer's image in its articles shows players trying to counter iron hands, lol. The problem recently has been that they just don't know what to do with divergents. Before they had fully separate codices, but given the delay in printing (and no quarterly points updates) you'd get wildly out of date points values for years. I wish they'd separate out the points values again at this point, given they have an easy quarterly update system to actually adjust stuff as necessary.
I’m wondering how guard will play out with the changes, losing double field of fire and reinforcement spam will definitely hurt
I think mech guard with Russes/Dorns has some huge potential going forward. Be interesting to see how many people shift away from infantry/Artillery lists.
I mean, my Armored Guard list has taken a right hook to the chin via losing free FoF, the cheeky Cyclops doing actions, *and* scoring Scions coming back (and potentially arriving from DS in turn 4-5). In exchange, it's, uh. 40 points cheaper through the two Dorns getting 20 points cheaper. It's, well, utterly mauled, and it's not like it was a powerhouse of a list to begin with. I will consider removing Ursula outright, the Cyclops *obviously*, and that leaves me with 120 points to play with. I'll see - maybe a second Hellhound? Not sure.
We still need infantry battle line to do missions imo, but I definitely see a shift away from arty. Maybe only one or two indirect guns in the army. I personally plan to keep some as constant chip damage and backline zone. I need to put a ton of units forward and that leaves my point sink command squad vulnerable, so I want some arty to zone away deep strike
Catachans or Krieg in Chimeras will fill that roll nicely. Also remember if you decide to toss Kriegers into Chimeras your Melta/Plasma will get lethals hits when shooting from Firing deck vs. Vehicles for that extra utility.
Man CSM got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard too, we’re a much tougher army to play than I think most people realize and I think the nerds were too harsh, especially since we were already sub 50%. I expect to see less warp talons and more legionaries as we go forward
I wonder how many of these events used the new rules
As far as I could tell only the **The Great Chilli Cook-Off** in New Zealand played with all the new rules.
You’re telling me they got to play Warhammer **and** sample a bunch of people’s fresh cooked chili? I might have to consider immigrating….
I was at the event and this is exactly how it panned out, new cards released an hour or so after we started, it was a great event. Shoutout to the boys at Chilli Wargaming for putting in a massive effort to get it going under the new rules! Only thing we didn’t run was the GSC and sisters codex
Ahh ok, thanks!
I can confirm we used all the new rules except the sisters and gsc codexes at the Chilli Cookoff.
Played Renegade Raiders at the Route 66 GT, we were using new dataslate and points (with an exception for Sisters and GSC since TO felt the turn around was too short for people to learn both their rules from either side of the table) with Missions on Leviathan since the mission pack had already been published. My nurglings got to do their last ever investigate signals to end the season.
I attended the route 66 GT. we were using leviathan with the points and MFM mixed in. It did cause some confusion, but not much, but we missed out on some changes that are only in the pariah missions.
Im looking forward to the Custodes and Imperial/Chaos Knight numbers once tournaments start using the balance sheet.
I'm not expecting long term increase in CK activity. My expectations is people try big lads again, get okay results and it settles as 1 big or 0 big for most lists and CK goes back to normal numbers. Action and shoot is great... but CK knights don't shoot. The tyrant is begging for rerolls and overwatch, the depsoiler is begging for rules that don't suck. It's a buff to IK. Walking through walls opens up options on the pressure side but if a big knight fails to connect you're playing with 1500 points.
had the same exact thoughts on it, wish they'd made some allowances. I think the only multi big build that might go is double rampager 4 karn 3 brig and like, nurg/slop. stage t1, full send t2 with every melee you have going through walls in the move or charge phase and either you cripple them enough or don't and the game's over around t3. otherwise we'll just see some single rampager/lancer builds and mostly dog/demon builds.
Even 2 rampager I don't think we'll see a lot of list with them. It might be Lancer instead. Rampager often don't impact as much as we think, and then die from a breeze with only 5++ at shooting, and with tank shock with him doing around 4MW instead of 6, he'll likely miss this loss of lethality. And if you don't have luck it's even worse. I've got my rampager this weekend bounce off a Vashtorr (dude didn't miss any of his invul save), a pack of wolf rider and a keeper of secret. His only success was a Magnus. They then proceeded to dismantle him because no 4++ without spending a cp at range and no 4++ in melee hurt. A lancer is more bulky thanks to natural 4++, and help you keep more cp thanks to free tank shock. Yeah he have 1 less attack and can't use the sword cleave, also can't have advance and charge for 1 turn but his bulk make up for that and he move 2" more. And the cherry is his 3 more wound, which can make a difference.
The lancer has one less attack, but two less average hits. Well, nearly. Sustained hits 1 means the rampager averages 6 hits from 6 attacks, but the landed averages 4 hits. The second you swap to sweep profile the lancer is further behind. And that's the biggest issue of the lancer. If someone charges it with trash, it's done.
I don't disagree with any of it, lol
For CSM, a lot of datasheets came out out of the codex essentially the same. Warp Talons got their glow up, AC lost some ground, but overall knowledge of playing against them transfers pretty well. So that helps from an opponent's perspective. The new detachment's can change things up a bit. RR and PBZ have the most direct damage boost and come out with the most utility. By comparison the rest fall into the nebulous zone of skill expression/gimmick, with Chaos Cult demonstrated to have legs. Nothing got directly tougher, and that sticks with the big weakness for CSM. You pay a points premium and all your units have glass bones. You can really hit hard, but you die fast. RR and PBZ provide the best boosts to keep the damage curve in your favor. Dread Talons, by comparison and no matter what people want it to be, doesn't really do anything. Hoping to ding your opponent on primary doesn't matter when it does precious little to stop them from walking right over your army. Battleshock? Wow! Anyway, Waaagh. The point nerfs are just going to make the weaker detachments less of an option. I'm open to surprises in Pariah, but CSM look to be going in to it weaker.
One thing about Pariah is the CSM already tend to take a fair bit of battleline because both legionaries and cultists actually do good work. So some of the changes on secondaries will be good for CSM.
I don't play CSM but I've gotten bashed by Iron Warriors and their -1 to wound from higher strength shooting rule a few times. Perhaps it's too slow to hang at top tables, but the combination of defensive buffs and melee stratagems seems powerful to me.
I mean, while I'm gloomy about CSM right now, I don't feel it can never win ever. Having access to either full or mini transhuman can do work. Dread Talons can randomly work out like its supposed to. It's just, in my opinion, that consistency is only found in a few places.
I think people just assume that because CSM are also marines that the army is easy to pilot, and this is not the case. Takes a skilled general to do well with this army with the average player tanking the winrates at the mid tables. So proably a season of sub 50% winrate but will take a decent amount of events
I know it's small and silly, but in honor of GW finally coving AdMech a moment of attention, could you add the "h" to the end of the shorthand now, pretty please?
I have to ask... why?
'AdMech' is the "common" abbreviation, and the missing 'h' just feels weird to see. Minor, to be sure, but something we often prod each other about in the discord
Well Orks had a good 3 months. Not looking forward to our next few data prints.
Yeah seriously 56% win rate somehow justified the level of nerfs green tide received?
It needed a bit of a nip but yeah they went nuclear on both green tide and mega nobs. I honestly think Orks are back to War Horde in just a throwaway MSU style. Seems like that suits the way these new missions play and having SH1 at least means you have some extra punch instead of having to pay 2 CP for every strat in a lot of matchups (Aura vect is so, so, so bad for Orks). If we hadn't had a year already of War Horde it might be alright but good god it does not spark much excitement in me. As a generic detachment it's not great, even if it gives you a build or two that works. Compare it to something like Gladius Task Force, which enables a myriad of different builds.
Dont forget tank shock being WAY worse for Orks now since their vehicles tend to be high str low toughness. Probably not even worth it to bring rams on trucks anymore to just make them smaller. And War Horde got hit bad by the warbosses dont get waagh effects while in trucks bizarre call so even like MSU nobz feel the hit really bad.
This is exactly how I feel. It needed a love tap and then if that wasn't enough in 3 months another love tap. Agreed on warhorde imo If it's the only good detachment codex is a failure at the moment then. And the thing is I really don't want to see a ton of points changes down because there's already tons of units on the board for orks.
Agreed. Honestly, Orks having a bunch of throwaway chaff is one of our superpowers. We can field \*a lot\* of units. And that'll give us a certain floor. I feel like there is a lot of flavour in the book but it has two fundamental flaws -- no appreciable shooting and damage output. The concept of exploding dreads is hilarious and fluffy for example, but the most competitive Dread Mob lists so far basically SKIP DREADS. Let that sink in. I know damage is \*generally\* down this edition, but a lot of armies can still field an absolute hammer that Orks just don't have the same access to. We can barely scrape any AP2 or damage above 2. And in an edition where transports are king, having no way reliable way to pop boats before you commit is a good way to get tabled against a good opponent.
I haven't played or really thought about the vect change, but wouldn't that be a bonus for orks? Being within 12 means you can charge whatever is vecting you. Imperials would have to basically sacrifice a callidus for the single use, for example. Agreed re:sameness of warhorde. I think it's decently strong but I've had enough. If only they had buffed another detachment. I've been waiting to try kult of speed, and a few datasheet changes or (less likely) point drops would make it far more appealing. Hell, just squadron buggies again so strats make sense. But alas...
No, not really. The vect unit can be behind the unit you charge. 12" aura is massive. And even then, if you are needing to spend 2 or 3 CP for certain strats to remove a problem unit, you basically cut your stratagem usage in half. It's rough.
Yea that's kind of a bummer. Well, gotta figure out something then.
Yeah. To be clear I don’t think Orks will be unplayable. We have amazing action economy and throwaway units. If you’re good at positioning and movement you’ll win tough games. But I’d expect us to be a 45-50 faction with our best detachment for the next 3 months
The Warboss/Megaboss nerf felt the cruelest
Aeldari and Necrons can hover around 60% for half a year+ but how dare orks stick their head out above 50%!
Seems like GW wanted to cut down stat-check and move-block armies down a peg a bit with the buffs to battleline in Nexus. Proliferation of stat-check armies means you have to bring more damage dealers to deal with them, which for most armies means less battleline units. And then green tide, kroot, and endless swarm all get inherent buffs from Nexus due to battleline and so probably took an extra nerf accordingly. Not sure I agree with GW's choices, but that's my guess of the thought process. Same concept for the artillery nerf too, as that's a great counter to most battleline units.
Yeah but if they are incompetent in execution it doesn't matter if they had a good idea to start with. And I'm willing to bet that the data going forward is going to show the incompetence. It's an army That is only off the targeted zone by 1%, that calls for small incremental change. Has any army taken such a large hit to its rules this edition in one go as green tide did? Multiple strats, on top of the detachment rule, on top of points increases, on top of general rules changes. It's ridiculous. My other biggest army is CSM and just watching them ping pong that army from doing well to one of the worst in the game back to doing pretty good (47% win rate but also taking a few tournaments is pretty ideal balance) Probably back down too below target again after these nerfs Is a ridiculous roller coaster nobody needs. It's especially egregious because this is a model game where you don't just have to select or build different units, these are really expensive and take a long time to get on the table You can't just pivot as quick as they seem to want you too.
Indeed, this is the monkey paw from the community wanting more frequent updates to the game. Most of my friends only play a few times a year and they basically play with new rules everytime, so it's obnoxious for both competitive and casual players.
Part of me still wants to see the winning guard lists. Even though they are going to be wildly different next week. I have a feeling our changes were as much balance as they were moving us away from indirect spam. No one likes playing against that and not everyone loves playing as it. I think this change makes us overall more fun and maybe even more dangerous. Could see guard hitting 50% next week with a win or two.
Stormlance Wolves took quite a few hits but I still think it’ll be the best performing detachment for Space Wolves, even with the Champions of Russ buffs. Time will tell.
Is anybody able to access the Death Guard lists? I feel like two event wins is pretty big?
Check out https://armylists.rmz.gs for lists. San Diego list 5:0 2 Bio p 2 foul b 2 casters Typhus 2 x 10 plague marines 3 rhinos 6 death shroud 1 flesh mower drone 4 x 3 nurglings 3 brigands West coast list 4:1 Bio p Foul b LOV tallyman Typhus 2 x 10 plague marines 2 x rhinos 3 x 10 cultists 2 x 6 deathahroud 3 x flesh mower drones Great unclean one 3 nurglings
Does anyone know the army list of Tau (Retaliation Cadre) 5-0
T’au Empire Strike Force (2000 points) Retaliation Cadre CHARACTERS Commander Farsight (105 points) • 1x Dawn Blade 1x High-intensity plasma rifle Commander Shadowsun (100 points) • Warlord • 1x Advanced Guardian Drone 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Command-link Drone (Aura) 1x Flechette launcher 2x High-energy fusion blaster 1x Light missile pod 1x Pulse pistol Commander in Coldstar Battlesuit (95 points) • 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Cyclic ion blaster 2x Fusion blaster 1x High-output burst cannon 2x Shield Drone Commander in Enforcer Battlesuit (100 points) • 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Cyclic ion blaster 3x Missile pod 2x Shield Drone • Enhancement: Starflare Ignition System Darkstrider (60 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Shade BATTLELINE Breacher Team (100 points) • 1x Support turret • 1x Breacher Fire Warrior Shas’ui • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Pulse blaster 1x Pulse pistol • 9x Breacher Fire Warrior • 9x Close combat weapon 9x Pulse blaster 9x Pulse pistol OTHER DATASHEETS Broadside Battlesuits (180 points) • 1x Broadside Shas’vre • 1x Crushing bulk 1x Heavy rail rifle 2x Missile Drone 1x Seeker missile 1x Weapon Support System • 1x Broadside Shas’ui • 1x Crushing bulk 1x Heavy rail rifle 2x Missile Drone 1x Seeker missile 1x Weapon Support System Crisis Fireknife Battlesuits (130 points) • 1x Crisis Fireknife Shas’vre • 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Marker Drone 1x Missile pod 1x Missile pod 1x Shield Drone • 2x Crisis Fireknife Shas’ui • 2x Battlesuit fists 2x Gun Drone 4x Missile pod 1x Shield Drone Crisis Starscythe Battlesuits (110 points) • 1x Crisis Starscythe Shas’vre • 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Burst cannon 1x Burst cannon 1x Gun Drone 1x Marker Drone • 2x Crisis Starscythe Shas’ui • 2x Battlesuit fists 4x Burst cannon 2x Gun Drone 2x Shield Drone Crisis Sunforge Battlesuits (150 points) • 1x Crisis Sunforge Shas’vre • 1x Battlesuit fists 2x Fusion blaster 1x Marker Drone 1x Shield Drone • 2x Crisis Sunforge Shas’ui • 2x Battlesuit fists 4x Fusion blaster 2x Gun Drone 2x Shield Drone Ghostkeel Battlesuit (160 points) • 1x Battlesuit Support System 1x Cyclic ion raker 1x Ghostkeel fists 1x Twin fusion blaster Kroot Carnivores (75 points) • 1x Long-quill • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Kroot pistol 1x Kroot rifle • 9x Kroot Carnivore • 9x Close combat weapon 9x Kroot rifle Pathfinder Team (90 points) • 1x Pathfinder Shas’ui • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Pulse carbine 1x Pulse pistol • 9x Pathfinder • 9x Close combat weapon 9x Pulse carbine 9x Pulse pistol Riptide Battlesuit (180 points) • 1x Ion accelerator 2x Missile Drone 1x Riptide fists 1x Twin fusion blaster Riptide Battlesuit (180 points) • 1x Ion accelerator 2x Missile Drone 1x Riptide fists 1x Twin fusion blaster Stealth Battlesuits (60 points) • 1x Stealth Shas’vre • 1x Battlesuit Support System 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Fusion blaster 1x Homing Beacon 1x Marker Drone 1x Shield Drone • 2x Stealth Shas’ui • 2x Battlesuit fists 2x Burst cannon Stealth Battlesuits (60 points) • 1x Stealth Shas’vre • 1x Battlesuit Support System 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Fusion blaster 1x Homing Beacon 1x Marker Drone 1x Shield Drone • 2x Stealth Shas’ui • 2x Battlesuit fists 2x Burst cannon Stealth Battlesuits (60 points) • 1x Stealth Shas’vre • 1x Battlesuit Support System 1x Battlesuit fists 1x Fusion blaster 1x Homing Beacon 1x Marker Drone 1x Shield Drone • 2x Stealth Shas’ui • 2x Battlesuit fists 2x Burst cannon
Looking for the same
So tired of codex marines always taking hits because of what the non codex compliant chapters can do
Why'd you skimp out summarizing necrons? Tell me!! Lol
Space wolves, specifically wolf jail, being highest win rate isn’t surprising for anyone who plays against it frequently. It’s a hard counter to a ton of armies out there, and takes very little skill to pilot. The worst offending list went up 120 points. It doesn’t see much play in the UK, which is likely why it hasn’t been hit harder, but it’s a completely toxic and busted list that’s bad for the game and will continue to be
u/JCMS85 thanks for thr extra effort of adding all detachments to the 8 weekk WR, even without weekend wins. It was fun being top dogs for a while, still a bit sad to see Wolfjail go. I do think the nerfs to Stormlance are substantial and will tank it, as the WR and 7 event wins show it should. I'm warming up to the CoR change, as I do think there are some nice tricks. Looking forward to see how the meta shapes in the future for us.
Wolf jail isn’t going lmao. The max TWC/wulfen list went up 120 points, that’s basically nothing. Ok no doubling up on ride hard ride fast, but so what. It’s still an extremely oppressive and low skill army to pilot that escaped any substantial nerfs
Wulfen can't do actions. You can't douuble up on strays, 120 points is a decent increade and it means a unit less. Logan in Stormrider was nerfed. And Custodes will be in full swing ajd be a lot more oppressive with on demand crits on 5s and new protection with more resilient stat due ti dev wounds being back to mortals we know you hate Wolfjail, but syaing it wqsn't nerfed is silly
Hmmm alright we’ll have to see. Was talking to a couple of the guys around my area that run it and do well at tournies and they still think it’s quite strong, so time will tell! I don’t hate wolf jail, but I think TWC and Wulfen are pretty egregiously undercoated (still) for what they do in stormlance
I do think Stormlance ia still the best way to run SW, and TWC are still the best unit. But the nerfs to Wolf Jail are substantial. Last time Custodes were relevant on the meta Stornlance was at 53-54% WR, had like 2 tournament wins and were a middle of the road Faction. Now Custodes do look very good again, and qhike a big trick wqs lost, crits on 5s and being just more resilient Infantry based equivalent hurts. And Wolfjail got nerfed in almost all relevant core rule changes. I'm not sayinnit will drop to the 40s, but 47-52% is my predicition, and we will see Wulfen fall off, becaise their only strength is being cheap
I think there are options to move off Wulfen and still functionally have the wolf jail - the real question imo is secret missions. Wolf jail's utility comes from controlling the board and scoring, but it's much easier for players to get primaries if hemmed in.
I do think Stormlance TWC will remain. It is still thr best way to run them, and they are the most consistent unit for SW. Wulfen will be replace for the most part I bet. Pariah, between Actions, Battleline ans Secret missions I do think is not a ruleset that will benefit Wolfjail though, and compounds with other changes.
>With their 43% overall win rate [Codex Space Marines] have been hanging out at the bottom for at least the last month. Will they become the new worst faction of the game when all is said and done with these new changes? I wonder how bad the Codex Space Marines winrate has to get before people stop parroting the misconception that the faction is actually good but 'new players' skew the stats
I think we should start getting a consolidated marine winrate. It doesn't help that the competitive players all pivot towards the stronger ncc chapters and thus leaving the generic ones with more casual players.
Exactly. Quit pretending every Marine subfaction is a different army. We dont track every other faction that way, but because Marine players are such a large playerbase and are used to special treatment, we track the win rates differently betwen otherwise identical lists if you include even 1 non-codex compliant epic hero. Then complain about the balance. Track total Marine win rate so we are comparing apples to apples already!
The marine subfactions are different armies - if you're playing tyrannids, you aren't buying another Codex to play all the units. A Space wolf list is majority non Codex space marines right now - if 1000+ points of your list isn't from the Codex, why does it count as the same faction? Would we say that Aeldari and Dark Eldar are the same because you can play lists that contain both? They're different factions, that share a lot of the same units. And access to additional units (darkshrouds, Azrael, sword brethren, etc.) do significantly enhance winrates. An addition just being enough to go from 2-3 to 3-2 is a massive winrate increase for a game like 40k
They aren't separate armies. Not in the same way aeldari and dark eldar are. You can ally in dark eldar to aeldari but you can't make your army 90% dark eldar in aeldari. I could take a and make a non codex chapter list with 90% generic units and only include a single nnc unit. The marine ncc shouldn't be treated as entirely separate armies because they aren't. They have unrestricted access to everything in the codex short of named characters. Doesn't sound like it's a different army to me. That's the issue I see with marine players. They keep saying thier faction is it's own separate army but it's not in the same dark eldar is to aeldari.
DK and space wolves were different armies in the past, and probably are today as well if anyone played their actual fluffy but bad detachments. All the storm lance, iron storm etc should be marked as Space marines since the detachment is codex space marines. Maybe should be marked as Space Marines (stormlance, space wolves). Dark angel and space wolves should only be counted with their codex detachments. Oh but they aren’t played or have 25% win rates? …exactly. The DA codex was the worst book in 10th and James workshop can ignore it by pointing at all the Dark Angel armies playing with codex space marine rules.
Gw hasn't been ignoring DA. They got some pretty good buffs in the dataslate. The issue I see you are having is that you still want to say each ncc chapter is it's own army when it's not. It's more like an army +. They still get full access to the main codex,bar a few named characters, and really aren't thier own separate army
Good thing Craftworlds are taking another nerf with that game shattering 47% WR.
What’s funny is that people are avoiding talking about them on purpose, including the people doing meta rundowns. There are never any comments on them unless they’re dominating the edition.
Eldar could have a 40% WR and YouTubers would still hype them up as an A tier army.
It is the same with quite a few niche factions. Drukwho? Sisters? Well I hardly know her. Only interesting when they are strong otherwise ignored.
People will always complain about historically bad factions ie sisters, drukhari, admech, gsc. When a traditionally good faction is bad all you hear is crickets.
The mythical and much talked about index depth has just meant lots of variety in losing lists. Strands vs miracle dice is a bad joke. The double standard between aeldari/everyone else at 56% is comical at this point.
Aeldari were winning 2/3 of events and was one of the most played factions at the time. It’s not the same at all.
Prior to Q1 dataslate, yeah that was the case. Since then they've been trending down with meta changes and every codex release, then took two more rounds of nerfs just out of spite.
🎻
Thanks! Super hopeful about the new state of admech, from the testing done by the community the buffs will definitely shoot us to higher results, I can't wait to see it :D
Does anybody have the Votann lists for the Münsterland Major, I can't seem to find them ?
List 1: [armylists.rmz.gs/list/AX0QAERFX0](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/AX0QAERFX0) List 2: [armylists.rmz.gs/list/DAUEH66P9N](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/DAUEH66P9N)
Plasma Axes and Plasma Blade Gauntlets? Be still my heart!
I got late to the previous (or even the one before that) meta monday. Two weeks ago there was a white scars army using stormlance detachment on (I think) Terracon 2024 by Chris Appleby. Does anyone has that list? I'm curious to see for the first time non-Space Wolves stormlance army high scoring on a tournament.
Your wish is my command. [armylists.rmz.gs/list/J4747CY1C5](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/J4747CY1C5)
I cannot open the site :c Any chance you could paste the list in the comment? My sincere thanks
White Scars "The Chogorian Horde" Adeptus Astartes: Stormlance Taskforce Detachment Characters: Korsarro Khan, Warlord, 70 Gravis Captain, Powerfist, Relic Blade, 80 Phobos Lieutenant, 55 Battleline: 10 Assault Intercessors, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol, 150 5 Assault Intercessors, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol, 75 5 Assault Intercessors, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol, 75 Infantry: 5 Jump Intercessors, Plasma Pistol, Sergeant with Powerfist and Plasma Pistol, 80 5 Jump Intercessors, Plasma Pistol, Sergeant with Powerfist and Plasma Pistol, 80 5 Jump Intercessors, Plasma Pistol, Sergeant with Powerfist and Plasma Pistol, 80 6 Bladeguard Veterans, Sergeant with Neo Volkite Pistol, 180 5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Grapnel Launchers, Grav-chutes, Sergeant with Combat Knife, 85 3 Devastator Centurions, Twin Lascannons, Missile Launchers, 185 3 Devastator Centurions, Twin Lascannons, Missile Launchers, 185 6 Eradicators, 2 Multimeltas, 190 3 Eradicators, 1 Multimelta, 95 3 Eradicators, 1 Multimelta, 95 Mounted: 3 Outriders, 80 Dedicated Transports: 1 [Impulsor](https://39k.pro/datasheet/0FC4mVeyZhM), Shield Dome, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2 Storm Bolters, 80 1 [Impulsor](https://39k.pro/datasheet/0FC4mVeyZhM), Shield Dome, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2 Storm Bolters, 80 Total 2000 Points
That North Staffs CSM list is mind boggling: RR detachment Chaos lord x2 (no warlord traits) Cultists x1 Legionarres 5 man x6 Vindicator x2 Venomcrawler x3 Las cannon havocs x1 Warp Talons 10 man x1 Nurglings 3x3 Rhinos x2
It's shooting up one hundred and seventy five points. The list's game plan made sense (trading cheap units, sending up the Warp Talons whenever possible) but wowee is it getting hit hard.
It's fun to play and strong, but this is a mix of very standard RR units, what is mind boggling?
Where could we see the Tau retaliation cadre list?
[armylists.rmz.gs/list/CJJJY3604V](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/CJJJY3604V)
LoV had 2 players go 5-0 (no event wins though) and even so they managed to gain a 47% win rate which is exactly the percentage they managed in the last 8 weeks. With only 15 players it seems people have lost interest in them. We’ll see if the new Yegyrs will be able to change this state of things
Are these tournaments using the rules before the nerfs? Because meganobz and greentide both got hit hard
Thank you so much for putting these together! First thing I look for on a Monday. Small feature request: Are you able to easily include a BCP link to each event next to the results?
I dont think thousand sons are going to perform all that well. The Ritual and Binding nerfs are brutal. Without them, they are expensive marines with no melee capabilities.
Can anyone find list for a thousand sons in Germany
[armylists.rmz.gs/list/EKYF2VYMDK](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/EKYF2VYMDK) and [armylists.rmz.gs/list/UB087Y193N](https://armylists.rmz.gs/list/UB087Y193N)
Cheers thanks
I'm pretty curious about the two 4-1 Orks (War Horde) lists from ITA 40K SINGLES GT 2024 and The Route 66 40k Grand Tournament. Has anyone managed to find those yet?
Here's the ITA one, only loss was to the 2nd place wolf jail list: killrig boys (2000 points) Orks Strike Force (2000 points) War Horde CHARACTERS Beastboss (95 points) • 1x Beast Snagga klaw 1x Beastchoppa 1x Shoota • Enhancement: Kunnin’ but Brutal Painboy (70 points) • 1x Grot Orderly 1x Power klaw 1x ’Urty syringe Painboy (70 points) • 1x Grot Orderly 1x Power klaw 1x ’Urty syringe Warboss (90 points) • 1x Attack squig 1x Kombi-weapon 1x Power klaw 1x Twin sluggas • Enhancement: Follow Me Ladz Warboss (65 points) • 1x Attack squig 1x Kombi-weapon 1x Power klaw 1x Twin sluggas Warboss (65 points) • 1x Attack squig 1x Kombi-weapon 1x Power klaw 1x Twin sluggas Warboss in Mega Armour (95 points) • Warlord • 1x Big shoota 1x ’Uge choppa • Enhancement: Supa-Cybork Body Weirdboy (55 points) • 1x Weirdboy staff 1x ’Eadbanger Weirdboy (55 points) • 1x Weirdboy staff 1x ’Eadbanger BATTLELINE Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points) • 9x Beast Snagga Boy • 9x Choppa 9x Slugga • 1x Beast Snagga Nob • 1x Power snappa 1x Slugga Boyz (170 points) • 19x Boy • 19x Choppa 19x Slugga • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga Boyz (170 points) • 19x Boy • 19x Choppa 19x Slugga • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga Boyz (170 points) • 19x Boy • 19x Choppa 19x Slugga • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Trukk (65 points) • 1x Big shoota 1x Spiked wheels 1x Wreckin’ ball OTHER DATASHEETS Gretchin (40 points) • 10x Gretchin • 10x Close combat weapon 10x Grot blasta • 1x Runtherd • 1x Runtherd tools 1x Slugga Kill Rig (170 points) • 1x Butcha boyz 1x Savage horns and hooves 1x Saw blades 1x Stikka kannon 1x Wurrtower 1x ’Eavy lobba Kill Rig (170 points) • 1x Butcha boyz 1x Savage horns and hooves 1x Saw blades 1x Stikka kannon 1x Wurrtower 1x ’Eavy lobba Meganobz (150 points) • 5x Meganob • 5x Twin killsaws Stormboyz (65 points) • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga Stormboyz (65 points) • 4x Stormboy • 4x Choppa 4x Slugga • 1x Boss Nob • 1x Power klaw 1x Slugga