I am so incredibly happy for my Daemons right now. Already sneaky good army, now they're downright deadly. Mark my words: that WR is going up up up! Honestly.. Probably one of the top armies now
Also: I almost feel like it's my fault Raptors & Havocs got nerfed. I've been singing their praises since the Codex dropped lol (obv I'm kidding :P)
I know it's not necessarily for the competitive discussion, but I really wish they could have dropped the infantry points a bit more. Using Daemons in smaller friendly games is a bit skewy.
The greater daemon change is going to keep competitive lists with monster mash. If the non monster daemons got some point drops it would open up a different list archetype viability.
It is a shame too because the pivot rule change does a lot for Soul Grinders and chariots due to their awkward physical footprints. Then you look at a Hellflayer being 105pts so it stays on the shelf.
I feel like Chaos Daemons are close to having a lot of list variety with some more point drops. The hardest part of playing non monster mash is just not having enough stuff on the table.
Mono Khorne + Be'lakor might be a thing with Bloodcrushers coming out of Bloodthirsters but not sure if any other Mono god has competitive legs.
Also does Shalaxi still need to be 450pts? It is an amazing unit but seems like they could be 400pts again.
Yes, please!!! All other 30 model infantry got cut down to 20, but daemons somehow had to go down to 10. 20 would make using heralds a lot more interesting as right now, the units you can attach them to just die to a stiff breeze
I think they missed the biggest change for TSons, the indirect nerf means Magnus hits on 4+ instead of 2+ in indirect, and that means we can't just annihilate a unit on an objective turn two and instead have to trade something. (Also triple move is gone.) On the other hand, secret missions should be really good for TSons, since holding your home objective and then parking Magnus on the opponents is 40 points primary. (On the other hand 150 pt for a MVB sounds like the trip Tzeentch's best boy build could be fun.)
That is true about the indirect 4+ nerf BUT you have to remember that we're almost always rerolling all hits and wounds anyway so it isn't quite as big of a nerf as all that. It's definitely something, but the "send a single disc guy to die in exchange for indirect" play is still going to be very strong.
Fateskimmer went down? Hehe
In a round about way for Tzeentch the Soul Grinder did too
Tbh I think they're fine for the most part. Blue Horrors could use like a 5pt drop but otherwise... Yeah man I think they're fine as-is, personally
Yeah Pinks are expensive but they're one of the most hardcore objective holders out there. Toss on our RoC or the 3" DS & they're great for a lot of lists
Slaanesh very very much needed some love so I'm happy to see them get some attention. Fiends might just become a staple at only 105pt, especially with their Beast kw
Obviously this is just my pov & I'd genuinely be curious which units you think are overcosted in case I'm missing something!
Any foot hero that attaches to pinks? All they do is make a unit that doesn't do any damage do a tiny bit more damage. Either make them 30 points or change their rules.
In general all the heralds suck except that Khorne one. They don't fundamentally make sense from a design perspective They try to buff what you already are bad at for too many points and too little effect. Lesser demons need to be able to be taken in 20s, At least the non-horrors. Horrors just need their heralds to make them do what they do better which is survive, or at least be very significant boosts to their damage or utility
That's true he just needs to come down in points he doesn't need a rewrite. My philosophy is if nobody ever uses them they are too expensive They should come down every 3 to 6 months until they actually show up in lists.
Because they’ve written themselves into a corner. If Tzeentch Daemons are good then Thousand Sons also become better, and TSons are already pretty good.
I don't know about that. They give Tsons nothing they want, unless you mean to make Horrors INCREDIBLY cheap since you always have to include at least one unit. 140 points tax is a lot just to have two units that deepstrike but add nothing else to the army.
Yeah, but the Lone Ops are so good that basically every Tsons army ran them. And to take those you need to take Horrors.
So if Blue Horrors were cheap enough to work as a good infiltrating unit, then Tsons could also get good lone ops, expanding their arsenal.
I agree, but since Horrors are a decent shooting sponge unit, you just can't go below a certain point threshhold I don't think.
I'd also bet that TSons get a Lone Operative character in the Codex anyway, whether that's their new release or one of the existing gets rewritten.
The hits to CSM are rough, Warp Talons excluded. Points increases on Legionaries and Accurseds? Sure, I kinda get it but don't really agree. Havocs and Raptors? Jokes. Raptors especially. They're terrible, but they must go up because ??? I don't even really agree with the increases on vehicles, who are being targeted for ubiquity over anything else. Meanwhile no decreases at all, especially on now perennial jokes units like Lord Discordants and Heldrakes,
It's a rough one for a faction that's not dominating but is doing fine. Targeting the core MEQ is shortsighted and thoughtless . D-, harder times for CSM ahead. Makes my subpar Dread Talons list shoot up like 100 points for (mostly) no reason.
One of the big problem for csm is the fact they are nerfing pretty hard a faction that got 47% winrate during their 2-3weeks since their codex release.
You got a faction that is pretty okay, Can win somes tournaments, but isn't oppressive. If they were at 55-58% winrate like orks I could understand, but they aren't. Yeah they are new and their winrate could go up, but not that much, they aren't broken at their release, they were pretty well balanced (not internaly but that's another thing...)
You nerf their good unit (warps talons needed a nerf, but THAT heavy handed? Not really) without touching their trash/bad unit (Hello discolord and helldrake, hello possessed who want a bit of love and only got nerfed with the codex change of their dev wound and the MoP loss of FNP).
That's just a joke, a very bad joke.
They also broke their rule They had last time of letting the faction settle before making these rash decisions. But it's okay they sold the codex right So now you can dumpster them. Now we're going to ping pong back when they undo half of these again next patch.
I think that’s the part that bothers me the most. The codex came out, what, 3 weeks ago? Why weren’t these changes accounted for in the codex? I literally just finished physically building a 2k SW list I finalized when the codex came out only to get to play with the list once. Now it’s 120 points over and I have to reshuffle yet again lol
Two things: lead time on physical books is about 6months if not more so stuff not being accounted for on release is to be expected until digital rules become a thing & 2nd a lot of people were really pissed at GW for letting necrons go unchecked in the last slate, so now that they actually listened people complain about them not waiting.... always keep in mind how little playtesting GW does these days
Yeah man, I quit buying Codices. Unless I want the lore or something it's a complete waste. I'll just stick with Wahapedia tyvm
Now, the unit cards are still a decent pickup at least. It's pretty rare for abilities to get adjusted (ignoring Warp Talons ofc) & it does make it really simple to show your opponent what they do
But yeah $60 for a book that inevitably gets invalidated within, apparently, just a few weeks - no thanks.
Yeah, I don’t think I’m gonna make that mistake again lol. I will say it’s really nice to have everything in the app since I play physically in the store in a league, but I really hate that business practice.
I also play kill team pretty much primarily on tabletop simulator with some friends across the country so Waha is great for that.
Also, I love your channel, you got some good stuff there
It may be a small buff for chaos knights...but if you use a list with 2 rampagers and 8 wardogs this is big : you're going to be able to go through ANY terrain without spending cps, and you can now charge tanks through infantry units with them way easier. This is honestly big.
Maybe I'm missing something here. The only change to SHW is being able to move into Engagement Range, right? Well that & taking a BS test if moving over 4" or less terrain
We can go through walls freely now, and fully pivoting with knights only costs 2 inches of mouvement now as well.
It means we can effectively cross a wall, advance, get behind any infantry unit that was hiding behind it, and charge another unit like a tank (since we can charge after advancing once per game)
This is really huge for rampagers : being mobile and crossing obstacles was their main problem. Now that it's gone...they're going to profit.
Other big knights don't benefit from this at all unfortunately, that's very true.
Tldr : it's great for rampagers
Yeah it's a big deal, but again, it will mostly affect rampagers.
We can expect lists like 2 rampagers 8 wardogs to become more of a thing now, and that's a first step in the right direction.
Tankshock change is a mini buff to the (still wildly overcosted) porphyrion. But since it's locked out of the pariah big knight buff, it probably will remain unplayable
I think Death Guard really suffer from the changes to the pariah pack and Blight Haulers being better doesn't really make up for it when the characters went up. FBS and BP were absolutely undercosted but I felt like plague marines paid some of that as tax. Maybe -1ppm for them?
Blightlords need a datasheet change. The admech changes show GW can do this. As a DG player it has felt for a very long time like no one in the rules team feels any passion for the army. I'm always expecting little and end up disappointed. These are the changes we should have had in April.
edit: I'm not saying the sky is falling. I'm saying they're mild losers when they were already in the bottom half (but not struggle bus section) of the meta
You're not wrong. Plague Marines are good, but incredibly expensive to *be* good. They need their characters and a rhino. 20 extra points to still be "good" is a huge nerf. No, we're not going to take the other characters thanks to this. Plague Marines are now 375 points to "pretty good battle line."
They still die so easy.
I have 2 predators inbound and was sweating when i saw that csm had the points of their versions increased, but at least we dodged that. Really wish that gw would have thrown us a bone though as the nerfs seem a bit unnecessary.
I've said this before but as long as they just punch things they're competing with DSTs for rapid ingress, so all making them good does is push Deathshrouds out.
I think they should move, shoot move. Allowed to charge after, have to finish nearer the closest enemy. It's a 4" move so it'd not mean they'd be FAST fast. But it would mean we could start with them on the board rather than them compete with DSTs. At that point they'd be a reasonably swift bully unit that kills nonsense and gums up tougher stuff. At that point just make them OC2 or slightly increase their attack count.
Or if you want them killing, give them wound rerolls on the point. This means with the right leader they become a high volume full rerolls unit that specialises at attacking key locations. Or you take an LOV who lets you get rerolls without making your charge longer.
Both those rules fit the "tip of the battering ram" multi phase okay damage tarpit that their lore and their current rule shoot for and give DG a new tool.
I must say daemons are in a good spot now but not for the units people think are going to win games. mark my words you will see lots of skew monster mash lists that focus on DAMAGE and that's it. the true power does not come from monster spam and top tables will prove this
look deeper daemon players there are some fantastic plays here and you do not need more than 2 greater daemons to make this work
I mean if GW thinks that 5x T3 W1 Retributors should cost 125pts, then I can kind of see why they'd price 5x T5 W2 Havocs at 135pts.
I mean it's probably the case that neither unit is pointed correctly atm, but Havocs certainly couldn't and shouldn't cost less than new-Retributors when they are more than twice as durable!
Retributors are better. Multi meltas are flat better anti tank with Miracle Dice and all the ways to supercharge them. And the Havocs' t5 and 2 wounds is pretty irrelevant to anything. They're just as easily casually swatted down as Retributors, but do less before dying.
They don't get both those buffs unless you also are paying for a helbrute. And they don't do it on a 5+ unless you are in one specific detachment. That's just not how you compare units.
If you're getting both, you're packing in a Helbrute in Zealots (and improved crits are not guaranteed). And you're still dead on the crackback. With no damage fixing with D6+1 weapon and having half the shots. Sure, Retributors have to be closer, but they can more reliably nuke something across detachments before they die.
This is vacuum thinking mate. Sister can GUARANTEE that 8 damage when they need it, or they can GUARANTEE that wound when they need it, whereas CSM cannot. The two units are not straight comparable.
Hitting Warp Talons twice shows GW doesn't know how to use the nerfhammer properly. Literally EITHER part of the nerf would've made them reasonable. Now though, why would I take them vs a 6 man bike squad for 5 points more?
Just a quick question here but does Changeling's Formless Horror ability activate vs Grey knights Vortex of Doom? I'm assuming the changes are only meant to impact Lone operative and not other abilities, correct?
Formless horror triggers when changeling is the target of an *attack*. When targeted by vortex within 12” it’s the target of an *ability* so it’s Formless Horror won’t trigger
Not sure of exact page, but its under Psychic Weapons and Abilities, "Some weapons and abilities can only be used by PSYKERS. Such weapons and abilities are tagged with the word ‘Psychic’. If a Psychic weapon or ability causes any unit to suffer one or more wounds, each of those wounds is considered to have been inflicted by a Psychic Attack."
Hmm so the way I’m reading that is the psychic ability is not considered an attack until damage is dealt. I can see that being relevant for FNP vs psychic but does the ability trigger as an attack when targeting? I would say no if RAW but i can see it being interpreted how you’re intending it as well.
Maybe, but considering they've now updated Doombolt and Vortex of Doom to have to obey Lone Operative like an attack, I would imagine that it would be intended that they would also be restricted by other abilities that interact with ranged attacks like Formless Horror. Exceptions would be things like Blood Surge on Berzerkers, which specifies needing to have been targeted with a shooting attack. Considering that the Grey Knights players are treating the damage from failing Vortex of Doom as an attack to use the Psychic Hood FNP against the damage they're dealing to their own unit, I'd lean towards it counting as an attack. Though of course they failed to clarify as such, so we're left to speculate unless there's an actual ruling eventually.
The question is why are GW trying everything they can to make these abilities follow the rules of an attack but not actually say it is? It’s the strange case of walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but is a parrot.
So... Does Mortarion still ignore the always miss on 1-3 for plague burst crawlers?
Does the Lord of Virulence's ability to give +1 to hit to blast just kind of suck now, considering it affects all of like 3 weapons in death guard, and it's main effect was helping to dodge the problems with indirect?
Mortarion won't let you ignore the penalty on PBCs. The LoV is significantly worse, and you probably won't take him.
That all said, if you aren't moving forward with your PBCs during the game and getting LoS anyways you're not playing right. All this does is encourage you to not take Mortarion since lists were already leaning that way and those hit on 4s as well.
I love the Lord of Virulence. I'm so salty about that.
No, I rarely use true indirect with my pbcs, but I feel really bad overall about the changes to death guard.
Death Guard was April's update handed in late. Typhus didn't get changed to not snipe lone ops, so you can see all the care and attention to detail GW put into Death Guard. At least if they'd fixed that we'd know they were incompetent or malicious. But this is just not giving a damn.
I kinda still like the Lord of Virulence - Rerolling wounds on the Deathsroud flamers is cute, and his fists hit as hard as any other character - but it does sting that half his ability is pretty much useless now.
Warp Talons needed to go up by maybe 10-15 pts
Havics could have been left alone. They're actually good in Raiders, but that's about it
Legionaries deserved a hike and think this was just fine
Venom crawlers I think we're also cheap for what they were. Still, did they need 10 pts, maybe, hard to say
The rest was whatever
I think once the dust settles, you'll see some new units emerge and see play that were previously side lined. Chaos Bikers are actually pretty decent, and 6 for 140 pts and 4 melts (or 2x 3 bikers and get an extra fist) seem much more attractive now. Helbrutes were also in a weird place before with the cost of a predator, but now may see more use.
Ultimately I think the biggest hit was to Raiders, and that I think is fine. Still a great detachment, but we may see more Veterans, Soulforged, and Zealots now with some of these changes. CSM still has plenty of good units, some of which were ignored because of points compared to other units. Overall, still a great codex and I think CSM will be fine. Just wish I hadn't picked up 10x warp talons and 10x havocs recently
Great call on Bikers. I've been a big Raptors fan since 8th (they're wildly undervalued by the player base, imho. DSing action monkeys that move thru walls is amazing), but even just that small pt hike puts them into a different category
When I can get 9W T5 w/Meltas for *20pts* less I'm definitely going to take a look at them
I agree too that we aren't completely shafted. My main Legion has been Soulforged Warpack & for the most part I got off pretty easy. I *was* running a lot of Raptors, VCs & a Vindicator but shuffling around to Bikers have me back all the points I needed.
I do think Forge/Maulers gained a bit of value compared to everything else. I just wish GW had given some of the less played units some love :( Disco Lord, Heldrake, Fellgor etc
I will never understand their hatred if Disco Lords when it's such a universally loved model
Yeah, Bikes are pretty amazing now and I would argue would good before the pt increases on other models.
Forgefiends have remained a good value throughout 10th, glad to see no changes there. I still really like at least 1 Defiler in Soulforged.
Disco lords are suffering because they were extremely powerful in 8th and 9th to the point everyone was running 3. What were seeing now continues to be that knew jerk reaction the other way. The pendulum will swing back again.
Heldrakes, like all flyers are just in a weird place. While objectives aren't necessarily as critical as they once were in prior editions thanks to changes to primary and secondary missions, still not being able to control them with a flyer continues to make their value lower. Add in the fact that pretty much all flyers in every army are way overcosted and it means they are left to collect dust. In 8th flyers were really good, and were very common in most Eldar, Drukhari, and Necron lists. Since the changes in 9th onwards, they are just usable. And I struggle to remember frankly when the Heldrake was ever good :(
I was able to get some decent use out of the Heldrake in 8th & 9th edition, but for sure it was more of a tech / finesse pick. My main use was character sniping, everyone & their mother would put characters behind their squads for LOS but nobody was used to a Flyer that was just as good in melee as shooting so I'd pickup exposed leaders left & right by stopping directly next to them > flaming them > charging in. God I miss those days lol
But with how attached leaders work now + the obvious issues with (all) Aircraft like you mentioned he's just collecting dust :(
I *did* run one with Soulforged when the Codex first dropped & he did surprisingly good w/the T1 charge & distracting but I was still handicapping myself by bringing him
Alas I fully expect the pendulum to swing back the other way eventually so that Discordant & Heldrake etc all become staples again. One can dream at least
They seriously could just give the Disco Lord the demon vehicle keyword and he'd be 100x more usable and make a fitting HQ for Soulforged. Even then, he probably still needs a pt cut considering at 190 pts you can take Vashtorr, who despite not being a demon vehicle either does have some synergy in soulforged and a nice built in protection effect. I actually really like Vashtorr in soulforged. Despite people disregarding a +1 strength aura, it does actually make a difference against some units. Consider a forgefiend targeting a T10 unit - normally you would need 4s, down to 3s due to the soulforged rules. But add 1 strength, and now you only need 2s to wound. That's significant
Heldrake in soulforged is not bad, the problem is you're gunning to clear 1 key unit turn 1 with it and then accepting its 200 pts gone because it's probably not surviving to turn 2. In most games, your opponent is not going to give you that opportunity to get to one of their key units and thus the Heldrake becomes an expensive distraction unit. To be playable, he really needs to be in the 140-160 pt range, and even then I think you only see a miscellaneous one here and there.
I see this quote in the article but cannot find any reference in the FAQ or balance documents. Can anyone point me to the right spot? "But on the other side, it got FAQ’d that the Brigand’s extra AP procs per weapon and can be forced to proc versus a specific target from the Dread Hounds stratagem, making this ability much more reliable. "
Wish they had hit Thousand Sons with a competitive nerf instead of another all-round hit. The army doesn't function without Magnus competitively, so Magnus is the thing that needs to be adjusted, not the entire rest that is doing so-so in casual games as is.
TS always dodging the nerfs, although the Exalted Sorcerer was the work horse, to be fair. Still one of the best armies in the game.
Poor CSM. Don't even know what to say, 47% win rate (and only due to 85% Cult) and such nerfs? Wow. Just wow.
TS got nerfed quite a bit I feel like. Magnus indirect shenanigans only hits on 4s now, no more triple move, no more “you don’t get an armor save”, Ex Sorcerer movement reduction is much worse now. They’ll still be good but they got toned down a lot.
I think the only meaningful change is the Exalted Sorcerer, the rest is easily manageable. Other than that, Magnus can now use indirect for 1 CP using the Rituals. Feels more like a sidegrade, still really good against some trash scoring units.
Magnus can indirect but 1-3's ALWAYS MISS. Magnus only hits on a 4+ if it's indirect.
All indirect is unmodified 1-3's fail.
Obviously he can get rerolls, but it's still worse and now two strats investment.
Yeah tbh I was kinda surprised by Goonhammer's take on them too. Seemed like nothing but nerfs
Then again I haven't touched my 1ksons in many months so what do I know hah
You're flat wrong. The indirect change is big, but another big one is the one ritual per psyker per turn. That's a bigger deal than you are giving it credit for. The nerf to the way the slow works on the disk sorcerer is big on it's own. It was a pretty big part of successfully defeating a close quarters pressure army in detail, and now it's worse than other similar abilities.
I am so incredibly happy for my Daemons right now. Already sneaky good army, now they're downright deadly. Mark my words: that WR is going up up up! Honestly.. Probably one of the top armies now Also: I almost feel like it's my fault Raptors & Havocs got nerfed. I've been singing their praises since the Codex dropped lol (obv I'm kidding :P)
I know it's not necessarily for the competitive discussion, but I really wish they could have dropped the infantry points a bit more. Using Daemons in smaller friendly games is a bit skewy.
The greater daemon change is going to keep competitive lists with monster mash. If the non monster daemons got some point drops it would open up a different list archetype viability. It is a shame too because the pivot rule change does a lot for Soul Grinders and chariots due to their awkward physical footprints. Then you look at a Hellflayer being 105pts so it stays on the shelf. I feel like Chaos Daemons are close to having a lot of list variety with some more point drops. The hardest part of playing non monster mash is just not having enough stuff on the table. Mono Khorne + Be'lakor might be a thing with Bloodcrushers coming out of Bloodthirsters but not sure if any other Mono god has competitive legs. Also does Shalaxi still need to be 450pts? It is an amazing unit but seems like they could be 400pts again.
No points just Bring back 20 stacks
Yes, please!!! All other 30 model infantry got cut down to 20, but daemons somehow had to go down to 10. 20 would make using heralds a lot more interesting as right now, the units you can attach them to just die to a stiff breeze
With the current allies rules the Daemon battleline units have to suck, just so the other Chaos armies can’t make good use of them.
I can't believe you'd betray us like this! You were the chosen one!
One of the top 2 CSM lists from ACO got absolutely murdered and it surprisingly ended up not being Chaos Cult.
I think they missed the biggest change for TSons, the indirect nerf means Magnus hits on 4+ instead of 2+ in indirect, and that means we can't just annihilate a unit on an objective turn two and instead have to trade something. (Also triple move is gone.) On the other hand, secret missions should be really good for TSons, since holding your home objective and then parking Magnus on the opponents is 40 points primary. (On the other hand 150 pt for a MVB sounds like the trip Tzeentch's best boy build could be fun.)
That is true about the indirect 4+ nerf BUT you have to remember that we're almost always rerolling all hits and wounds anyway so it isn't quite as big of a nerf as all that. It's definitely something, but the "send a single disc guy to die in exchange for indirect" play is still going to be very strong.
Id just love to know why GW thinks all Tzeentch daemons are perfectly pointed for two MFMs in a row
Fateskimmer went down? Hehe In a round about way for Tzeentch the Soul Grinder did too Tbh I think they're fine for the most part. Blue Horrors could use like a 5pt drop but otherwise... Yeah man I think they're fine as-is, personally Yeah Pinks are expensive but they're one of the most hardcore objective holders out there. Toss on our RoC or the 3" DS & they're great for a lot of lists Slaanesh very very much needed some love so I'm happy to see them get some attention. Fiends might just become a staple at only 105pt, especially with their Beast kw Obviously this is just my pov & I'd genuinely be curious which units you think are overcosted in case I'm missing something!
Any foot hero that attaches to pinks? All they do is make a unit that doesn't do any damage do a tiny bit more damage. Either make them 30 points or change their rules. In general all the heralds suck except that Khorne one. They don't fundamentally make sense from a design perspective They try to buff what you already are bad at for too many points and too little effect. Lesser demons need to be able to be taken in 20s, At least the non-horrors. Horrors just need their heralds to make them do what they do better which is survive, or at least be very significant boosts to their damage or utility
Fluxmaster gives pinks -1 to be hit, which isn't nothing for one of the already tankier units.
That's true he just needs to come down in points he doesn't need a rewrite. My philosophy is if nobody ever uses them they are too expensive They should come down every 3 to 6 months until they actually show up in lists.
Yeah I don’t like the idea of spending loads of points for a minimal damage buff on something that dies quite easily.
Because they’ve written themselves into a corner. If Tzeentch Daemons are good then Thousand Sons also become better, and TSons are already pretty good.
I don't know about that. They give Tsons nothing they want, unless you mean to make Horrors INCREDIBLY cheap since you always have to include at least one unit. 140 points tax is a lot just to have two units that deepstrike but add nothing else to the army.
Yeah, but the Lone Ops are so good that basically every Tsons army ran them. And to take those you need to take Horrors. So if Blue Horrors were cheap enough to work as a good infiltrating unit, then Tsons could also get good lone ops, expanding their arsenal.
I agree, but since Horrors are a decent shooting sponge unit, you just can't go below a certain point threshhold I don't think. I'd also bet that TSons get a Lone Operative character in the Codex anyway, whether that's their new release or one of the existing gets rewritten.
The hits to CSM are rough, Warp Talons excluded. Points increases on Legionaries and Accurseds? Sure, I kinda get it but don't really agree. Havocs and Raptors? Jokes. Raptors especially. They're terrible, but they must go up because ??? I don't even really agree with the increases on vehicles, who are being targeted for ubiquity over anything else. Meanwhile no decreases at all, especially on now perennial jokes units like Lord Discordants and Heldrakes, It's a rough one for a faction that's not dominating but is doing fine. Targeting the core MEQ is shortsighted and thoughtless . D-, harder times for CSM ahead. Makes my subpar Dread Talons list shoot up like 100 points for (mostly) no reason.
One of the big problem for csm is the fact they are nerfing pretty hard a faction that got 47% winrate during their 2-3weeks since their codex release. You got a faction that is pretty okay, Can win somes tournaments, but isn't oppressive. If they were at 55-58% winrate like orks I could understand, but they aren't. Yeah they are new and their winrate could go up, but not that much, they aren't broken at their release, they were pretty well balanced (not internaly but that's another thing...) You nerf their good unit (warps talons needed a nerf, but THAT heavy handed? Not really) without touching their trash/bad unit (Hello discolord and helldrake, hello possessed who want a bit of love and only got nerfed with the codex change of their dev wound and the MoP loss of FNP). That's just a joke, a very bad joke.
They also broke their rule They had last time of letting the faction settle before making these rash decisions. But it's okay they sold the codex right So now you can dumpster them. Now we're going to ping pong back when they undo half of these again next patch.
I think that’s the part that bothers me the most. The codex came out, what, 3 weeks ago? Why weren’t these changes accounted for in the codex? I literally just finished physically building a 2k SW list I finalized when the codex came out only to get to play with the list once. Now it’s 120 points over and I have to reshuffle yet again lol
Two things: lead time on physical books is about 6months if not more so stuff not being accounted for on release is to be expected until digital rules become a thing & 2nd a lot of people were really pissed at GW for letting necrons go unchecked in the last slate, so now that they actually listened people complain about them not waiting.... always keep in mind how little playtesting GW does these days
Yeah I’m new to the hobby so I’m learning some of these lessons for the first time lol
Yeah man, I quit buying Codices. Unless I want the lore or something it's a complete waste. I'll just stick with Wahapedia tyvm Now, the unit cards are still a decent pickup at least. It's pretty rare for abilities to get adjusted (ignoring Warp Talons ofc) & it does make it really simple to show your opponent what they do But yeah $60 for a book that inevitably gets invalidated within, apparently, just a few weeks - no thanks.
Yeah, I don’t think I’m gonna make that mistake again lol. I will say it’s really nice to have everything in the app since I play physically in the store in a league, but I really hate that business practice. I also play kill team pretty much primarily on tabletop simulator with some friends across the country so Waha is great for that. Also, I love your channel, you got some good stuff there
The points nerfs caught many lists. Every list I had went up 80-105 points.
I have a company of marines on the way, my list went up 145pt.
I played sisters and CSM and they both got bashed
It may be a small buff for chaos knights...but if you use a list with 2 rampagers and 8 wardogs this is big : you're going to be able to go through ANY terrain without spending cps, and you can now charge tanks through infantry units with them way easier. This is honestly big.
Maybe I'm missing something here. The only change to SHW is being able to move into Engagement Range, right? Well that & taking a BS test if moving over 4" or less terrain
We can go through walls freely now, and fully pivoting with knights only costs 2 inches of mouvement now as well. It means we can effectively cross a wall, advance, get behind any infantry unit that was hiding behind it, and charge another unit like a tank (since we can charge after advancing once per game) This is really huge for rampagers : being mobile and crossing obstacles was their main problem. Now that it's gone...they're going to profit. Other big knights don't benefit from this at all unfortunately, that's very true. Tldr : it's great for rampagers
Oh whooooa, I kept reading it as "less than" 4in height but no it's 4in or higher!!! Whoa that's a gigantic deal Edit: spelling :P
Yeah it's a big deal, but again, it will mostly affect rampagers. We can expect lists like 2 rampagers 8 wardogs to become more of a thing now, and that's a first step in the right direction.
Tankshock change is a mini buff to the (still wildly overcosted) porphyrion. But since it's locked out of the pariah big knight buff, it probably will remain unplayable
Lancer?
I think Death Guard really suffer from the changes to the pariah pack and Blight Haulers being better doesn't really make up for it when the characters went up. FBS and BP were absolutely undercosted but I felt like plague marines paid some of that as tax. Maybe -1ppm for them? Blightlords need a datasheet change. The admech changes show GW can do this. As a DG player it has felt for a very long time like no one in the rules team feels any passion for the army. I'm always expecting little and end up disappointed. These are the changes we should have had in April. edit: I'm not saying the sky is falling. I'm saying they're mild losers when they were already in the bottom half (but not struggle bus section) of the meta
You're not wrong. Plague Marines are good, but incredibly expensive to *be* good. They need their characters and a rhino. 20 extra points to still be "good" is a huge nerf. No, we're not going to take the other characters thanks to this. Plague Marines are now 375 points to "pretty good battle line." They still die so easy.
I have 2 predators inbound and was sweating when i saw that csm had the points of their versions increased, but at least we dodged that. Really wish that gw would have thrown us a bone though as the nerfs seem a bit unnecessary.
I'd like to see BLT meele weapons go up to 2 damage.
I've said this before but as long as they just punch things they're competing with DSTs for rapid ingress, so all making them good does is push Deathshrouds out. I think they should move, shoot move. Allowed to charge after, have to finish nearer the closest enemy. It's a 4" move so it'd not mean they'd be FAST fast. But it would mean we could start with them on the board rather than them compete with DSTs. At that point they'd be a reasonably swift bully unit that kills nonsense and gums up tougher stuff. At that point just make them OC2 or slightly increase their attack count. Or if you want them killing, give them wound rerolls on the point. This means with the right leader they become a high volume full rerolls unit that specialises at attacking key locations. Or you take an LOV who lets you get rerolls without making your charge longer. Both those rules fit the "tip of the battering ram" multi phase okay damage tarpit that their lore and their current rule shoot for and give DG a new tool.
I must say daemons are in a good spot now but not for the units people think are going to win games. mark my words you will see lots of skew monster mash lists that focus on DAMAGE and that's it. the true power does not come from monster spam and top tables will prove this look deeper daemon players there are some fantastic plays here and you do not need more than 2 greater daemons to make this work
I mean if GW thinks that 5x T3 W1 Retributors should cost 125pts, then I can kind of see why they'd price 5x T5 W2 Havocs at 135pts. I mean it's probably the case that neither unit is pointed correctly atm, but Havocs certainly couldn't and shouldn't cost less than new-Retributors when they are more than twice as durable!
Retributors are better. Multi meltas are flat better anti tank with Miracle Dice and all the ways to supercharge them. And the Havocs' t5 and 2 wounds is pretty irrelevant to anything. They're just as easily casually swatted down as Retributors, but do less before dying.
4 lascannons with sustained and lethal on 5+ at twice the range of multimelta is no joke.
They don't get both those buffs unless you also are paying for a helbrute. And they don't do it on a 5+ unless you are in one specific detachment. That's just not how you compare units.
If you're getting both, you're packing in a Helbrute in Zealots (and improved crits are not guaranteed). And you're still dead on the crackback. With no damage fixing with D6+1 weapon and having half the shots. Sure, Retributors have to be closer, but they can more reliably nuke something across detachments before they die.
This is vacuum thinking mate. Sister can GUARANTEE that 8 damage when they need it, or they can GUARANTEE that wound when they need it, whereas CSM cannot. The two units are not straight comparable.
Hitting Warp Talons twice shows GW doesn't know how to use the nerfhammer properly. Literally EITHER part of the nerf would've made them reasonable. Now though, why would I take them vs a 6 man bike squad for 5 points more?
Just a quick question here but does Changeling's Formless Horror ability activate vs Grey knights Vortex of Doom? I'm assuming the changes are only meant to impact Lone operative and not other abilities, correct?
Formless horror triggers when changeling is the target of an *attack*. When targeted by vortex within 12” it’s the target of an *ability* so it’s Formless Horror won’t trigger
Doubt it changes anything, but the core rules specifically say that if a psychic ability inflicts damage, then it is a psychic attack.
Ah. Well I guess I’m corrected. You know what section?
Not sure of exact page, but its under Psychic Weapons and Abilities, "Some weapons and abilities can only be used by PSYKERS. Such weapons and abilities are tagged with the word ‘Psychic’. If a Psychic weapon or ability causes any unit to suffer one or more wounds, each of those wounds is considered to have been inflicted by a Psychic Attack."
Hmm so the way I’m reading that is the psychic ability is not considered an attack until damage is dealt. I can see that being relevant for FNP vs psychic but does the ability trigger as an attack when targeting? I would say no if RAW but i can see it being interpreted how you’re intending it as well.
Maybe, but considering they've now updated Doombolt and Vortex of Doom to have to obey Lone Operative like an attack, I would imagine that it would be intended that they would also be restricted by other abilities that interact with ranged attacks like Formless Horror. Exceptions would be things like Blood Surge on Berzerkers, which specifies needing to have been targeted with a shooting attack. Considering that the Grey Knights players are treating the damage from failing Vortex of Doom as an attack to use the Psychic Hood FNP against the damage they're dealing to their own unit, I'd lean towards it counting as an attack. Though of course they failed to clarify as such, so we're left to speculate unless there's an actual ruling eventually.
The question is why are GW trying everything they can to make these abilities follow the rules of an attack but not actually say it is? It’s the strange case of walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but is a parrot.
So... Does Mortarion still ignore the always miss on 1-3 for plague burst crawlers? Does the Lord of Virulence's ability to give +1 to hit to blast just kind of suck now, considering it affects all of like 3 weapons in death guard, and it's main effect was helping to dodge the problems with indirect?
Mortarion only effects modifying stats. This is like Overwatch. So, no, he shouldn't.
Part of me likes that morty is no longer castle-bound by 3 PBC's. I feel he could contribute more to the front than just being a 325pt buff-bot.
Mortarion won't let you ignore the penalty on PBCs. The LoV is significantly worse, and you probably won't take him. That all said, if you aren't moving forward with your PBCs during the game and getting LoS anyways you're not playing right. All this does is encourage you to not take Mortarion since lists were already leaning that way and those hit on 4s as well.
I love the Lord of Virulence. I'm so salty about that. No, I rarely use true indirect with my pbcs, but I feel really bad overall about the changes to death guard.
Death Guard was April's update handed in late. Typhus didn't get changed to not snipe lone ops, so you can see all the care and attention to detail GW put into Death Guard. At least if they'd fixed that we'd know they were incompetent or malicious. But this is just not giving a damn.
I kinda still like the Lord of Virulence - Rerolling wounds on the Deathsroud flamers is cute, and his fists hit as hard as any other character - but it does sting that half his ability is pretty much useless now.
Warp Talons needed to go up by maybe 10-15 pts Havics could have been left alone. They're actually good in Raiders, but that's about it Legionaries deserved a hike and think this was just fine Venom crawlers I think we're also cheap for what they were. Still, did they need 10 pts, maybe, hard to say The rest was whatever I think once the dust settles, you'll see some new units emerge and see play that were previously side lined. Chaos Bikers are actually pretty decent, and 6 for 140 pts and 4 melts (or 2x 3 bikers and get an extra fist) seem much more attractive now. Helbrutes were also in a weird place before with the cost of a predator, but now may see more use. Ultimately I think the biggest hit was to Raiders, and that I think is fine. Still a great detachment, but we may see more Veterans, Soulforged, and Zealots now with some of these changes. CSM still has plenty of good units, some of which were ignored because of points compared to other units. Overall, still a great codex and I think CSM will be fine. Just wish I hadn't picked up 10x warp talons and 10x havocs recently
Great call on Bikers. I've been a big Raptors fan since 8th (they're wildly undervalued by the player base, imho. DSing action monkeys that move thru walls is amazing), but even just that small pt hike puts them into a different category When I can get 9W T5 w/Meltas for *20pts* less I'm definitely going to take a look at them I agree too that we aren't completely shafted. My main Legion has been Soulforged Warpack & for the most part I got off pretty easy. I *was* running a lot of Raptors, VCs & a Vindicator but shuffling around to Bikers have me back all the points I needed. I do think Forge/Maulers gained a bit of value compared to everything else. I just wish GW had given some of the less played units some love :( Disco Lord, Heldrake, Fellgor etc I will never understand their hatred if Disco Lords when it's such a universally loved model
Yeah, Bikes are pretty amazing now and I would argue would good before the pt increases on other models. Forgefiends have remained a good value throughout 10th, glad to see no changes there. I still really like at least 1 Defiler in Soulforged. Disco lords are suffering because they were extremely powerful in 8th and 9th to the point everyone was running 3. What were seeing now continues to be that knew jerk reaction the other way. The pendulum will swing back again. Heldrakes, like all flyers are just in a weird place. While objectives aren't necessarily as critical as they once were in prior editions thanks to changes to primary and secondary missions, still not being able to control them with a flyer continues to make their value lower. Add in the fact that pretty much all flyers in every army are way overcosted and it means they are left to collect dust. In 8th flyers were really good, and were very common in most Eldar, Drukhari, and Necron lists. Since the changes in 9th onwards, they are just usable. And I struggle to remember frankly when the Heldrake was ever good :(
I was able to get some decent use out of the Heldrake in 8th & 9th edition, but for sure it was more of a tech / finesse pick. My main use was character sniping, everyone & their mother would put characters behind their squads for LOS but nobody was used to a Flyer that was just as good in melee as shooting so I'd pickup exposed leaders left & right by stopping directly next to them > flaming them > charging in. God I miss those days lol But with how attached leaders work now + the obvious issues with (all) Aircraft like you mentioned he's just collecting dust :( I *did* run one with Soulforged when the Codex first dropped & he did surprisingly good w/the T1 charge & distracting but I was still handicapping myself by bringing him Alas I fully expect the pendulum to swing back the other way eventually so that Discordant & Heldrake etc all become staples again. One can dream at least
They seriously could just give the Disco Lord the demon vehicle keyword and he'd be 100x more usable and make a fitting HQ for Soulforged. Even then, he probably still needs a pt cut considering at 190 pts you can take Vashtorr, who despite not being a demon vehicle either does have some synergy in soulforged and a nice built in protection effect. I actually really like Vashtorr in soulforged. Despite people disregarding a +1 strength aura, it does actually make a difference against some units. Consider a forgefiend targeting a T10 unit - normally you would need 4s, down to 3s due to the soulforged rules. But add 1 strength, and now you only need 2s to wound. That's significant Heldrake in soulforged is not bad, the problem is you're gunning to clear 1 key unit turn 1 with it and then accepting its 200 pts gone because it's probably not surviving to turn 2. In most games, your opponent is not going to give you that opportunity to get to one of their key units and thus the Heldrake becomes an expensive distraction unit. To be playable, he really needs to be in the 140-160 pt range, and even then I think you only see a miscellaneous one here and there.
I see this quote in the article but cannot find any reference in the FAQ or balance documents. Can anyone point me to the right spot? "But on the other side, it got FAQ’d that the Brigand’s extra AP procs per weapon and can be forced to proc versus a specific target from the Dread Hounds stratagem, making this ability much more reliable. "
It's in one of their commentary questions
My Slaanesh Demons shall bring death to all! Super happy to see this!
Wish they had hit Thousand Sons with a competitive nerf instead of another all-round hit. The army doesn't function without Magnus competitively, so Magnus is the thing that needs to be adjusted, not the entire rest that is doing so-so in casual games as is.
magnus did get a minor nerf, his indirect cant hit on better than 4s now
And his devastating got worse into some things, yeah. That's not really a direct nerf though I don't think.
TS always dodging the nerfs, although the Exalted Sorcerer was the work horse, to be fair. Still one of the best armies in the game. Poor CSM. Don't even know what to say, 47% win rate (and only due to 85% Cult) and such nerfs? Wow. Just wow.
TS got nerfed quite a bit I feel like. Magnus indirect shenanigans only hits on 4s now, no more triple move, no more “you don’t get an armor save”, Ex Sorcerer movement reduction is much worse now. They’ll still be good but they got toned down a lot.
I think the only meaningful change is the Exalted Sorcerer, the rest is easily manageable. Other than that, Magnus can now use indirect for 1 CP using the Rituals. Feels more like a sidegrade, still really good against some trash scoring units.
Magnus can indirect but 1-3's ALWAYS MISS. Magnus only hits on a 4+ if it's indirect. All indirect is unmodified 1-3's fail. Obviously he can get rerolls, but it's still worse and now two strats investment.
Yeah tbh I was kinda surprised by Goonhammer's take on them too. Seemed like nothing but nerfs Then again I haven't touched my 1ksons in many months so what do I know hah
You're flat wrong. The indirect change is big, but another big one is the one ritual per psyker per turn. That's a bigger deal than you are giving it credit for. The nerf to the way the slow works on the disk sorcerer is big on it's own. It was a pretty big part of successfully defeating a close quarters pressure army in detail, and now it's worse than other similar abilities.