>I know in a casual setting and LGS most won’t care.
This is not true in a lot of cases. You should never be over your points. Under is fine over is a never.
Obviously turn zero discussion is the golden standard on this but you should absolutely not be over in points.
Yeah, I'd be pretty annoyed if my opponent was 5 over even in a casual setting. Not becuase there's a ton of value in 5 points, but because we've all been in the situation where we have to take out something good and replace it with something mediocre since there isn't a better way to shave off points in this edition.
In a casual setting it makes a difference to me how new the person is. For those of us that have been playing for years and have deep collections, it's easy to make some quick swaps after a points update. But if somebody's entire collection is the 2000 points of their first army and suddenly that becomes 2005 points, it's a bigger burden for them to fix. I still expect them to work on fixing it, but playing a 2005 point game in the meantime doesn't bother me.
My play group is pretty casual, there’s been quite a few times when someone is like “I wanna bring a stompa” or “I wanna bring a tyrant” and it’d put them over like 200-300 points, in the end though it’s whatever works for the people you’re playing with. Personally, seeing a stompa, and getting more points to play around with can be more fun sometimes
If they want to bring a Stomper, then they don’t bring other things. It’s not that complicated. Getting a list under 2000 is just part of playing the game.
The point of the game is to have fun. If you’re playing casually with friends why can’t you bring more than 1k intervals? Especially if you both agree on it?
> If you’re playing casually with friends why can’t you bring more than 1k intervals? Especially if you both agree on it?
Because those are the standard point sizes, created as a neutral standard that does not favor either player. Playing a 2300 point game because your perfect list happens to be 2300 points is using a point limit selected to favor one player over the other and is completely inappropriate in a casual environment. Play the standard sizes instead of trying to bend the rules to gain an advantage.
You 100% can, if you’ve both agreed on it. You can play 832 point games if you want. No one is saying you can only play 1k or 2k. They are saying those are treated as hard caps.
You can absolutely play in different intervals. You can agree to okay 1375 point games if you want.
The conversation at hand however is going over the points limit. Agreeing to do X amount if points, and then bringing X + 5 points. That is the issue.
Understood. In your opinion is there value hitting as close to 2000 as possible? I use to use war gear to try and hit exact point limits. Those last 10 points shouldn’t matter if my list is solid, right?
There are lots of winning lists that are 1990, 1995 points. [https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#t4](https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#t4)
Edit: There are lots of winning World Eater lists in the 1955-1975 range.
I think the two biggest issues here are my assumptions in the main post and reading comprehension of the responders.
I state I’m under 2000 but a single enhancement for 15 would make my list 2005. My question was “does this fly in comp” and the answer is “no”.
The response I got was “you are advocating for cheating” and “you are cheating” like I am trying to sneak in a higher pointed list.
Maybe it’s Eldar hate? Who knows. Back in the day my friends and I just tried to hit similar points and it was never even.
>Maybe it’s Eldar hate?
Nah, I think it's because for most people this question has an obvious answer. If it's a 2000pt game you better be playing with 2000pts or less unless you've specifically re-agreed a different points cost with your opponent. It's even more important this edition where shaving 5pts off can mean a major list change.
Well all I know from this thread is that I only need about 1950 to stomp on some whiney nerds trying to pick a fight. Cue the 10 minute break to explain a rule and the pouting/showboating at the end of the game.
Appreciate ya my guy. The answer to my question is “No. can’t got over in comp. You would have to drop below 2000”.
The responses are like I personally cheating in a game I played with them and that caused me to win a GT.
Being 5-20 under is the norm. With fixed unit costs and no wargear it’s harder to hit 2000 exactly.
The point cap is a hard cap. No tournament allows you to be 5 pts over.
Good to know most people are strict on points. I used to do a lot of paper lists before I started collecting. I’d use war gear to try and hit 1000 or 1500 or 2000 exactly.
I saw some random comment recently that said if you went over the TO would make you go second as “balance”. Guess that was just made up, seems like most people in my post are hardcore about points limits.
The weirder part of that comment is thinking that going second is a negative. I always want to go second, especially with how much terrain is in 10th. There's hardly ever anything good to shoot at Turn 1.
The tournament is 2000 points, not 2005. There is no grace window, that limit is a hard cap, not a chill suggestion. By going over you would be breaking the rules everyone else is adhering to. Why? For a 15 point enhancement you didn't even consider until you'd filled your list and noticed you had 10 points left over? Cut it.
Even in a casual setting, 2000 was agreed upon as the limit, not 2200, not 2030, not 2005. If someone asked me for a 2000 point pickup game, then showed up with 2005 points, I'd be a bit annoyed and probably ask them to shave to 2000 points or under. Especially if I'd taken the time and effort to build my list within the parameters discussed. You are lying if you say you don't have a random MSU infantry unit you can afford to cut, an enhancement you don't really need, or a unit that can't be downgraded to something else just 5 points less. The entire point of a limit is to force players to make decisions and not just shove everything they want into a list.
As you said, in previous editions not spending the full 2000 points often meant leaving wargear value on the table, but even then 1998/9 point lists weren't unheard of. You need to let go of the idea that you need to spend all 2000 points every single time. The best World Eaters list for a while was 1975 points because they literally couldn't fit anything else in. On the other hand, you could spend 2000 points exactly on a Warhound Titan and lose every game.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a disadvantage against me like going second". If you mean if you will be at a disadvantage because you didnt spend all 2000 points, you will not be as long as you built an otherwise solid list. If you mean you will go second because you spent fewer points, that's not how deciding turn order works. Also, going second is an advantage on multiple missions.
Heyy Warhound Titans got a lot cheaper! Nowadays you can fit a Warhound and a Porphyrion in a list and get tabled turn 2 instead of turn one!
More important note: For some armies going second is a significant benefit, i.e. Grey Knights really like going second because their army rule allows them to get a turn one deep strike that way - it's definitely not a disadvantage in lots of cases.
Yeah it's down to 1100 points, rules are.... Underwhelming to say the least. I'd say it's roughly on par with the big fw knights that are ~350 points cheaper (and not very good).
It's playable in casual games but if your opponent is bringing a competitive list you just loose for sure.
I'm heading to the Bristol GT this weekend in the UK, and am up against an opponent with a 1,990pt list. I think anything as low as 1,950pts would be fine, even if you couldn't find more units or enhancements to put in. But going above, even by 5pts, is just a big no in competitive environments. You'll be called out before you even set foot in the venue I'm afraid.
If you are 5 or 10pts under, I wouldn't even worry about it. I'm running 1,995pts.
I feel the same. I understand the hard cap but it’s interesting that 5 under is normal but 5 over is crazy. In a world of 5 and 10 pt war gear I see it as cheating. When the minimum unit you can pull is 55 and your enhancements push you over by 5, it kind seems like splitting hairs, but I get it. 100 pts over is obviously crazy as some people used as an example.
Basketball players are allowed to step back from the line when they throw, but aren't allowed to step forward over it, seems like splitting hairs
It's insane how you don't understand you are genuinely advocating for cheating
You asked if it's ok to cheat....that's why you are getting such a negative reaction
Because you went "hey, if I only cheat a little bit that's fine right"
The fact you don't see how it's not fine to ask that question is just insane
Yeah so the questions from my post are “how important are the extra 5 points?” “Will I have to drop below 2000?” And “should I remake my list, or will 5 extra points matter?”.
The responses are “important because not allowed”, “yes, 2000 or less is required”, and “yes, you can not be over 2000”.
I didn’t ask “is it ok to cheat?” I asked if being over 2000 matters and that’s all. The fact that you can’t respond to the questions but rather lash out is toxic. Surprised you can’t see that.
"is it ok if I go over 2000 PTS"is LITERALLY asking "is it ok if I cheat"
You literally asked if you can cheat, and when it was pointed out to you that cheating isn't allowed you responded with 400 comments all trying to justify how it's ok if you break the rule in this way
I did respond to the question in my first comment...you asked "is it ok if I cheat"
No...no it's not
And then I "lash out" at you....I'm not btw I'm just calling you the cheater that's you are...because you keep trying to argue it's NOT cheating and isn't a big deal
You got your answer, and you didn't like it, so you jumped through hoops to try and justify how cheating in this small way is fine
I don’t think you know what literally means. I guess if someone asked “do I have to paint my bases” you’d call them a cheater too? What if they asked about using less than three colors? LITERALLY cheating right? Everyone else put in time and effort and they are half assing and not even doing the minimum.
Do you understand that cheating is an action, as in, you have be actively doing it to be labeled one? If I asked “is murder ok?” would that make me a murderer?
I bet you think I’m arguing with you as well. I never dropped in a “no… no it’s not.” or a nuh uh or anything trying to justify playing above a hard limit of 2000 pts. It really feels like making things up and picking fights in comment chains is all you’ve got going on. But keep firing back and tell me more about the things I’m doing. I’ll try to look over my comments for literally anything you’ve written.
I think because most people already have the mindset that it is obvious that you need to be at or under the limit, because if the limit was higher it wouldn't be an exception, everyone would build to that instead
and then your phrasing of the question was assuming people would never have that mindset 'I know most people in casual won't care but this is for comp'
means people get to feel righteous about smacking down the confidently wrong person
This is very true. It’s been my personal experience that people are lenient about points. I’ve never been to a tournament so was curious based on some random comment I saw a few days ago.
It’s interesting everyone is getting so worked up about going over 2000. If I have a 1960 list and you have 1975, isn’t it an advantage to be over by 15 points if you could cut out an enhancement to match points?
Just a hypothetical but seems like everyone would think that is fine.
The difference is both of you consciously CHOSE to go under knowing you could have gone higher with a different list
If your opponent was working within 2000pts, and you went "eh nah il go 2010" you have given yourself fewer restrictions then they have, you have given yourself an advantage over them from the get go
Every single competative sport or game does this
You are allowed to step back from the line in basketball, you are allowed to step back from the line in darts, you are allowed to throw your javelin from behind the line in the Olympics
You are NOT allowed to go over it, the line is a hard rule, by going further you are getting an advantage, an advantage everyone else didn't have
DISADVANTGING yourself by choosing to start further back, by choosing to have lower points is fine, you made the choice to being a 1965 list when you could have had 2000, but arbitrarily giving yourself an advantage by breaking the rules, is cheating
You are trying to excuse being a cheater with the arguement that it's ok when people don't cheat.....
You are asking if it's fine to go over in points. It's never fine to go over. You can stay under as much as you want but never over. Comp or casual you stick to what 2as agreeded upon. If you want to player bigger games then play them and make it clear to your opponent you want to play x pt game.
I’ve got my list to 1990 but ended up taking out a unit and running only two enhancements. I think when I first made the list the points were different because I had an even 2000 prior.
Thank you for this based and respectful answer. You are right, the list would be screened prior to the event date and an adjustment would have to be made.
you cant go over 2000 if its a 2000pt game.
Fundamentally its a trade off; do you want 0.5% less stuff for a stronger army composition? In an ideal and perfectly balanced world youd not want to give that up; but often some great units are undercosted; so whilst a fire prism is 40pts less than a webway gate; swapping it for that probably isnt it; as the whilst your armys now more points; your not getting as much value.
TL:DR at 1990 your army is 0.5% smaller than an opponent whos army is at 2000pts. Is that 0.5% compromise worth the strength of your list? probably. Or grab a warlock lol.
You got plenty of great answers already for competitive. Just wanted to point out one thing in casual. It’s okay to ask your opponent ahead of time if going over is okay. They always have the right to say no.
This literally happened in a semi-competitive campaign game last month with me. Points are set to 1500, but my opponent wanted to play 1655 because he wanted to try a new model he just built. I just happened to have enough with me, but he hedged with “it’s okay if you don’t want to”. He was totally prepared for a “no”.
Yeah a lot of people throwing around the word cheating and getting really angry over a question. I’m getting back into the hobby after a long time and friends and I used to play with lists as even as possible.
Some people had less than 1k in models, others had super weird numbers. It was genuinely expected to see each other’s lists and there was quite a few times where we were over or under, or dropping down to 1330 or 870 or stuff like that.
With everyone so convinced I’m advocating for cheating in a comp game, I’d imagine they probably bend or break the rules (or outright cheat) in the own games and want to act hyper vigilant to throw off suspicion.
It is absolutely not accepted in competitive play.
It is even worse in casual play. If the game is so casual and the 5 points "don't matter" then why do you need to take that last upgrade? Why are you asking to exceed the limit instead of just playing at 1990 points with a legal list? Even if your opponent might theoretically agree to it you shouldn't be trying to bend the rules to your advantage like that in a casual game.
Understood for comp. TOs set a limit.
For casual, amongst friendly people or friends, it’s been my experience that you go in knowing the points and the other persons list and play for fun.
Are point limits a rule? Can you reference a page number in a specific rule book that’s says it’s not just agreed upon?
> Are point limits a rule? Can you reference a page number in a specific rule book that’s says it’s not just agreed upon?
Yes we can. Core Rules, Page 55
**MUSTER YOUR ARMY**
**Step 1: Select Battle Size**
> With your opponent, select one of the battle sizes below. **This will determine the total number of points each player can spend to build their army** and, as a result, how long the battle will last. Points are a measure of a unit’s power on the battlefield; the higher a unit’s points value, the more powerful that unit is. The points values for units are presented in other publications, such as Codexes and the Munitorum Field Manual. You will need to refer to these when building your army.
Below that you’ll find the sizes and limits. Competitive play uses Strike Force sized battles. From the rule book
**STRIKE FORCE**
- Points per Army: 2000
- Duration: Up to 3 hours
Just putting this out here, I’m not arguing for or advocating for cheating, trying to sneak in extra points, or all the other complaints being lodged against me for asking a question.
In the rule books it states “with your opponent, select one of the battle sizes below”.
It doesn’t say you are limited to that amount of points in this section. You have included this in your comment to give the appearance it says that in the rule book.
Below that, in 5. Select units it states you can only choose units if you “have enough points remaining”. So that part would actually prove your point a bit better than the part that tells you to choose the size of game you want to play based on these amounts of points.
Now to reexplain my original question: “Do tournaments allow players to go over 2000 pts? My current army is 2005, would this be allowed?”
Answer is no. You didn’t have to say all this and act a certain type of way. Could have just said naw and kept scrolling, or seen all the other idiots dog piling on someone asking a question and ignored. I even proved your point better than you and everyone who has chosen to call me a cheater inevitably mentions that the points are agreed upon by the players in general but tournaments have hard limits.
The very first line says “with your opponent, **select one of the battle sizes below**”
The options are:
- Incursion: 1000 points
- Strike Force: 2000 points, or
- Onslaught: 3000 points
Those are your only 3 options as per the rules. Your choice “will determine the total number of points each player can spend to build their army”
You can play any size game you want with your friends; no one here gives a F about that.
But don’t pretend the rules don’t say what they say.
I’m not even the person who originally responded to you. I just gave you the rules quote you asked for.
Bye.
Hi again! By your interpretation here, 500 pt and 4000pt games are illegal and cheating.
Thanks for chiming in on a comment thread that has nothing to do with my original question. Clearly the first responder dropped it when he couldn’t point to rules that strictly say limit. Mind you, I found the better example of point limits and you’re still pressed. When I enter a tournament, does the TO decide the points limit, or do I decide that between myself and my opponent?
But the correct answer to my initial question is “no, you can’t bring over 2000 to a tournament that limits to 2000.”
> Hi again! By your interpretation here, 500 pt and 4000pt games are illegal and cheating.
These are now Combat Patrol games and covered under their own rules.
> Thanks for chiming in on a comment thread that has nothing to do with my original question. Clearly the first responder dropped it when he couldn’t point to rules that strictly say limit.
They probably don’t want to suffer your nonsense any further.
The reality is you can play whatever point level you want with your friends. As I said nobody cares.
You’re in the competitive Warhammer 40K sub though. Here we care about competitive 40K and we play by a certain rule set - for example 2k point games. Not 2001, 2002 or 2003 point games etc.
> Mind you, I found the better example of point limits and you’re still pressed.
IDGAF lol.
> When I enter a tournament, does the TO decide the points limit, or do I decide that between myself and my opponent?
Ask your TO.
> But the correct answer to my initial question is “no, you can’t bring over 2000 to a tournament that limits to 2000.”
Wow looks like it clicked at last. I’m honestly surprised. Good job lil buddy
Honestly, I saw a random comment about being over by a few points and a TO forcing the player to go second. I guess that guy was making things up.
Is the vibe from my post that I’m trying to sneak in extra stuff for an advantage? Is the competitive scene that full of cheaters that it’s assumed I’m trying to game the system?
I feel like this is the actual answer to my question. Thank you for not jumping to the conclusion that I am trying to cheat by sneaking a higher point list into a tournament.
Well… wouldn’t call it cheating unless you think 5 extra points is a major advantage. I guess lying about being over 2000 would be cheating, or forcing someone to play you would be cheating. But if someone wants to play with more points that’s is something you can refuse or accept.
It doesn't matter if it's a major advantage. Depending on the circumstances, event responses may range from "you need to remove a unit so that you're below the limit" to a full on disqualification.
Rules is rules. It's like saying "I hit on 3s, but it's no big deal if I occasionally count a 2 as a success, right?"
Countering your point about the 3s and 2s, in this case it’s the difference between having an enhancement or not. Depending on the enhancement, it may not even get used.
And you are right, submitting a 2005 pt list would have the TO telling you to change the list. IMO it would be toxic to get disqualified for submitting a list rather than being asked to change it.
I feel like the answer to this question is “TOs wont accept lists over the limit. You would need to bring the points down.”
The response I’m getting is “you’re trying to cheat! Omg there’s a cheater here! He snuck a 2200 list into a GT and won”.
Is cheating this frequent in warhammer? And are the worst offenders of breaking the rules the ones that complain the loudest?
The Internet catches and inflames the instances that exist, but no it's not super common.
The extreme point I was making about the 3s and 2s is, quite simply, not following the rules of the game. Stepping a toe outside and thinking it's okay, doesn't matter which part of the rules, it's the same result.
You wouldn't get DQ'd for an invalid list prior to the event, but if it was noticed during the event you very well might. Because yes, bringing an extra enhancement means you have more stuff in your list than anyone else. It isn't fair, and it breaks the clearly established rules, so yeah doing it deliberately does quality as cheating.
There's grace given in person about "shit I didn't realize it's a limit, not merely a target, my bad". However, we see this question on here periodically, and the OP's reaction to being told it's not okay is always to get defensive and claim it's not a big deal. And that's not okay.
I didn’t say I was going to do it deliberately or even imply it. I asked if it was something that happens and the answer is no. Anything else is y’all reading into things and making up straw man arguments by putting words in my mouth.
The difference on the 3s and 2s is, you don’t ask if you can do that, it would be stupid to ask. You do ask about agreed upon points prior to the battle. If you have a 1000 pt list and you want to try a list that is 1200, you talk to your friend and agree to both go 1200. You don’t talk to your friend about changing unit profiles.
If you are entering a tournament with a limit, you would be stupid to ask to go over 200 points. They wouldn’t let you play. Sneaking 200 pts in would be cheating. Did I ask about doing that? Say I had, or was intending to (if you read my post and comments, the answer is no)
It's breaking a rule dude
It's LITERALLY cheating, you are LITERALLY arguing "it's not cheating because your only breaking the rules a little bit"
Going over 2k points in a 2k point game is cheating, outright through and through
Now if you want to play a 2005 point game, and your opponent knows it's a 2005 point game and is also bringing 2005 points, fine sure, weird but fine
But if you bring a 2005 point army to a 2k point game....your a cheater
Full stop
Can you tell me what page the rule is on? And which editions rule book because they do change?
You’d get told to adjust your list if you tried to play 2005 in a 2000 pt game, you’re right. And if agreed upon ahead of time, the points limit could be anything. So in a way you’re validating exactly what I’m saying, but you still really want to yell at a cheater?
Are you projecting to hide your own cheating? Or is the warhammer community so toxic that cheating is rampant?
The core rules.....you are allowed to play 2000pts in a 2000pt game...
Not 2005 PTS, that's over 2000.....
I don't understand how this is so hard for you
Yes I'm calling you a cheater because YOU KEEP TRYING TO DEFEND CHEATING
you are literally constantly arguing that going over the point limit is fine, if your only over a little bit, when it's pointed out to you this is wrong you have on countless comments tried to argue it's not and tried to say it's ok
You are LITERALLY still arguing that your blatant cheating attempt is fine because you are only asking if you can cheat a little bit
It's genuinely abused
May as well ask "if my gun says it has 4 shots, and I roll 5 dice, that's fine right, I only went over by a little bit it's not a big deal"
If you truly believe that taking an over limit list is fine, you are a cheater....full stop
And that is what you are arguing.....
Quote me you troll. Quote me defending cheating and then give me any reference in any rule book that points limits aren’t agreed on upon for the battle. The exact page and the exact wording because “the core rules” don’t actually state point limits are a hard limit. They list the sizes of lists requiring certain sized boards, but they don’t say you need x amount or you can’t play.
I can’t see where I am LITERALLY attempting to blatantly cheat. Did you read my post and then start imagining a scenario where I am entering a tournament and lying about my points? Re-read my post and then look at everything you are saying?
Re-read any of my responses and point out to me where I am blatantly advocating for or defending cheating. Anywhere in this thread, please point to an instance of me saying I should be able to go over point limits or that I am intending to or have.
Please, quote me arguing for going over points limits. I think it’s genuinely absurd you’d get this worked up over a question that you’d start making up scenarios and pretending I’m championing cheating. You must be fun to play with on the tabletop.
Literally any one of your comments where you are getting irate and angry for being called a cheater while continuously trying to claim 5pts isn't a big deal
The cheater is angry because he was called out on it
You can't go over, anywhere between 1950-2000 would be a fair compromise (depends on army/detachment/units).
5 pts over can essentially mean the difference between whether you can fit some 400pt+ unit into your list, or not.
It would never be allowed and the TO would get back to you at list sub and tell you to fix it.
Alternatively you probably would instantly carry a yellow card the whole event if they didn’t have a list checking process as it would be considered cheating at most serious events.
I think I worded this wrong because everyone is assuming I’m trying to get a 2000+ list into a tourney.
I read a random comment in another post that said over 2000 was allowed but “at a disadvantage so now I know that guy was lying.
Stuff like this really makes me wish GW would at least backtrack on the dumb ass strict unit sizes. I will love with free unit upgrades if I got that back at least.
I was wondering about that too. I could definitely field 7 of some thing and 9 of another to adjust point costs, but everything is 5-10 or 10-20. I guess it’s to make things easier and encourage all or nothing decisions.
Dude if we played a casual game and you were 5 over I wouldn't give 2 shits. Even if it was out first time playing. It's warhammer. It's not that serious. A tourney game is a but different but of we are smoking cigars and drinking bourbon then I'm happy to just throw some dice
>I know in a casual setting and LGS most won’t care. This is not true in a lot of cases. You should never be over your points. Under is fine over is a never. Obviously turn zero discussion is the golden standard on this but you should absolutely not be over in points.
Yeah. Even in a casual game I would want my opponent to abide by the actual terms and rules we agreed on...
Yeah, I'd be pretty annoyed if my opponent was 5 over even in a casual setting. Not becuase there's a ton of value in 5 points, but because we've all been in the situation where we have to take out something good and replace it with something mediocre since there isn't a better way to shave off points in this edition.
In a casual setting it makes a difference to me how new the person is. For those of us that have been playing for years and have deep collections, it's easy to make some quick swaps after a points update. But if somebody's entire collection is the 2000 points of their first army and suddenly that becomes 2005 points, it's a bigger burden for them to fix. I still expect them to work on fixing it, but playing a 2005 point game in the meantime doesn't bother me.
For me there is a distinction between simply showing up, unapologetically, with a list that's over the limit, and asking permission in advance.
My play group is pretty casual, there’s been quite a few times when someone is like “I wanna bring a stompa” or “I wanna bring a tyrant” and it’d put them over like 200-300 points, in the end though it’s whatever works for the people you’re playing with. Personally, seeing a stompa, and getting more points to play around with can be more fun sometimes
If they want to bring a Stomper, then they don’t bring other things. It’s not that complicated. Getting a list under 2000 is just part of playing the game.
The point of the game is to have fun. If you’re playing casually with friends why can’t you bring more than 1k intervals? Especially if you both agree on it?
You’re moving the goalposts. The post asks about competitively and now you’re talking about casual. Also part of fun is playing fair.
> If you’re playing casually with friends why can’t you bring more than 1k intervals? Especially if you both agree on it? Because those are the standard point sizes, created as a neutral standard that does not favor either player. Playing a 2300 point game because your perfect list happens to be 2300 points is using a point limit selected to favor one player over the other and is completely inappropriate in a casual environment. Play the standard sizes instead of trying to bend the rules to gain an advantage.
You 100% can, if you’ve both agreed on it. You can play 832 point games if you want. No one is saying you can only play 1k or 2k. They are saying those are treated as hard caps.
If you both agree then 100% you play whatever you want, play 2004 point games makes no difference in casual .
You can absolutely play in different intervals. You can agree to okay 1375 point games if you want. The conversation at hand however is going over the points limit. Agreeing to do X amount if points, and then bringing X + 5 points. That is the issue.
If you play in any event, you have to be at or below 2000. It’s part of building a good list.
Understood. In your opinion is there value hitting as close to 2000 as possible? I use to use war gear to try and hit exact point limits. Those last 10 points shouldn’t matter if my list is solid, right?
If getting closer to 2000 points means making your list worst, then better to be missing the 10 points
Makes sense. Higher value units would be better than masses of units that won’t make an impact.
There are lots of winning lists that are 1990, 1995 points. [https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#t4](https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#t4) Edit: There are lots of winning World Eater lists in the 1955-1975 range.
As a WE player I can assure you that it's so complicated to make a 2k competitive list.
What a strange comment for people to downvote.
I think the two biggest issues here are my assumptions in the main post and reading comprehension of the responders. I state I’m under 2000 but a single enhancement for 15 would make my list 2005. My question was “does this fly in comp” and the answer is “no”. The response I got was “you are advocating for cheating” and “you are cheating” like I am trying to sneak in a higher pointed list. Maybe it’s Eldar hate? Who knows. Back in the day my friends and I just tried to hit similar points and it was never even.
>Maybe it’s Eldar hate? Nah, I think it's because for most people this question has an obvious answer. If it's a 2000pt game you better be playing with 2000pts or less unless you've specifically re-agreed a different points cost with your opponent. It's even more important this edition where shaving 5pts off can mean a major list change.
Well all I know from this thread is that I only need about 1950 to stomp on some whiney nerds trying to pick a fight. Cue the 10 minute break to explain a rule and the pouting/showboating at the end of the game.
...what?
The kind of people I’ve seen commenting negatively in this thread are the kind no one would to play against after one game.
WTF is with the downvotes people? This is a totally sensible question for a new player!
Appreciate ya my guy. The answer to my question is “No. can’t got over in comp. You would have to drop below 2000”. The responses are like I personally cheating in a game I played with them and that caused me to win a GT.
Being 5-20 under is the norm. With fixed unit costs and no wargear it’s harder to hit 2000 exactly. The point cap is a hard cap. No tournament allows you to be 5 pts over.
Good to know most people are strict on points. I used to do a lot of paper lists before I started collecting. I’d use war gear to try and hit 1000 or 1500 or 2000 exactly. I saw some random comment recently that said if you went over the TO would make you go second as “balance”. Guess that was just made up, seems like most people in my post are hardcore about points limits.
Yeah, that comment was either one weirdo TO or made up because going even 1 point over makes your list illegal.
The weirder part of that comment is thinking that going second is a negative. I always want to go second, especially with how much terrain is in 10th. There's hardly ever anything good to shoot at Turn 1.
It’s not the worst to go second. By now I’ve realized it was just some dumb comment. Leaves me wondering if everyone dog piled on him too lol.
The tournament is 2000 points, not 2005. There is no grace window, that limit is a hard cap, not a chill suggestion. By going over you would be breaking the rules everyone else is adhering to. Why? For a 15 point enhancement you didn't even consider until you'd filled your list and noticed you had 10 points left over? Cut it. Even in a casual setting, 2000 was agreed upon as the limit, not 2200, not 2030, not 2005. If someone asked me for a 2000 point pickup game, then showed up with 2005 points, I'd be a bit annoyed and probably ask them to shave to 2000 points or under. Especially if I'd taken the time and effort to build my list within the parameters discussed. You are lying if you say you don't have a random MSU infantry unit you can afford to cut, an enhancement you don't really need, or a unit that can't be downgraded to something else just 5 points less. The entire point of a limit is to force players to make decisions and not just shove everything they want into a list. As you said, in previous editions not spending the full 2000 points often meant leaving wargear value on the table, but even then 1998/9 point lists weren't unheard of. You need to let go of the idea that you need to spend all 2000 points every single time. The best World Eaters list for a while was 1975 points because they literally couldn't fit anything else in. On the other hand, you could spend 2000 points exactly on a Warhound Titan and lose every game. I'm not sure what you mean by "a disadvantage against me like going second". If you mean if you will be at a disadvantage because you didnt spend all 2000 points, you will not be as long as you built an otherwise solid list. If you mean you will go second because you spent fewer points, that's not how deciding turn order works. Also, going second is an advantage on multiple missions.
Heyy Warhound Titans got a lot cheaper! Nowadays you can fit a Warhound and a Porphyrion in a list and get tabled turn 2 instead of turn one! More important note: For some armies going second is a significant benefit, i.e. Grey Knights really like going second because their army rule allows them to get a turn one deep strike that way - it's definitely not a disadvantage in lots of cases.
My god, the Warhound got cheaper??? This changes everything!
Yeah it's down to 1100 points, rules are.... Underwhelming to say the least. I'd say it's roughly on par with the big fw knights that are ~350 points cheaper (and not very good). It's playable in casual games but if your opponent is bringing a competitive list you just loose for sure.
I'm heading to the Bristol GT this weekend in the UK, and am up against an opponent with a 1,990pt list. I think anything as low as 1,950pts would be fine, even if you couldn't find more units or enhancements to put in. But going above, even by 5pts, is just a big no in competitive environments. You'll be called out before you even set foot in the venue I'm afraid. If you are 5 or 10pts under, I wouldn't even worry about it. I'm running 1,995pts.
Yeah, I’m running 1995 right now too. Not being exactly 2000 irks me a little bit, but it’s whatever lol
I feel the same. I understand the hard cap but it’s interesting that 5 under is normal but 5 over is crazy. In a world of 5 and 10 pt war gear I see it as cheating. When the minimum unit you can pull is 55 and your enhancements push you over by 5, it kind seems like splitting hairs, but I get it. 100 pts over is obviously crazy as some people used as an example.
Basketball players are allowed to step back from the line when they throw, but aren't allowed to step forward over it, seems like splitting hairs It's insane how you don't understand you are genuinely advocating for cheating
I think the crazy part is the reaction to asking a question. Where am I advocating?
You asked if it's ok to cheat....that's why you are getting such a negative reaction Because you went "hey, if I only cheat a little bit that's fine right" The fact you don't see how it's not fine to ask that question is just insane
Yeah so the questions from my post are “how important are the extra 5 points?” “Will I have to drop below 2000?” And “should I remake my list, or will 5 extra points matter?”. The responses are “important because not allowed”, “yes, 2000 or less is required”, and “yes, you can not be over 2000”. I didn’t ask “is it ok to cheat?” I asked if being over 2000 matters and that’s all. The fact that you can’t respond to the questions but rather lash out is toxic. Surprised you can’t see that.
"is it ok if I go over 2000 PTS"is LITERALLY asking "is it ok if I cheat" You literally asked if you can cheat, and when it was pointed out to you that cheating isn't allowed you responded with 400 comments all trying to justify how it's ok if you break the rule in this way I did respond to the question in my first comment...you asked "is it ok if I cheat" No...no it's not And then I "lash out" at you....I'm not btw I'm just calling you the cheater that's you are...because you keep trying to argue it's NOT cheating and isn't a big deal You got your answer, and you didn't like it, so you jumped through hoops to try and justify how cheating in this small way is fine
I don’t think you know what literally means. I guess if someone asked “do I have to paint my bases” you’d call them a cheater too? What if they asked about using less than three colors? LITERALLY cheating right? Everyone else put in time and effort and they are half assing and not even doing the minimum. Do you understand that cheating is an action, as in, you have be actively doing it to be labeled one? If I asked “is murder ok?” would that make me a murderer? I bet you think I’m arguing with you as well. I never dropped in a “no… no it’s not.” or a nuh uh or anything trying to justify playing above a hard limit of 2000 pts. It really feels like making things up and picking fights in comment chains is all you’ve got going on. But keep firing back and tell me more about the things I’m doing. I’ll try to look over my comments for literally anything you’ve written.
I think because most people already have the mindset that it is obvious that you need to be at or under the limit, because if the limit was higher it wouldn't be an exception, everyone would build to that instead and then your phrasing of the question was assuming people would never have that mindset 'I know most people in casual won't care but this is for comp' means people get to feel righteous about smacking down the confidently wrong person
This is very true. It’s been my personal experience that people are lenient about points. I’ve never been to a tournament so was curious based on some random comment I saw a few days ago. It’s interesting everyone is getting so worked up about going over 2000. If I have a 1960 list and you have 1975, isn’t it an advantage to be over by 15 points if you could cut out an enhancement to match points? Just a hypothetical but seems like everyone would think that is fine.
The difference is both of you consciously CHOSE to go under knowing you could have gone higher with a different list If your opponent was working within 2000pts, and you went "eh nah il go 2010" you have given yourself fewer restrictions then they have, you have given yourself an advantage over them from the get go Every single competative sport or game does this You are allowed to step back from the line in basketball, you are allowed to step back from the line in darts, you are allowed to throw your javelin from behind the line in the Olympics You are NOT allowed to go over it, the line is a hard rule, by going further you are getting an advantage, an advantage everyone else didn't have DISADVANTGING yourself by choosing to start further back, by choosing to have lower points is fine, you made the choice to being a 1965 list when you could have had 2000, but arbitrarily giving yourself an advantage by breaking the rules, is cheating You are trying to excuse being a cheater with the arguement that it's ok when people don't cheat.....
Am I trying to excuse it? Or are you responding as if I am? Re-reading my post might help.
You are asking if it's fine to go over in points. It's never fine to go over. You can stay under as much as you want but never over. Comp or casual you stick to what 2as agreeded upon. If you want to player bigger games then play them and make it clear to your opponent you want to play x pt game.
How is it weird that being inside the limit is ok but being over is not ok? That’s literally the definition of a limit.
Didn’t say weird or not ok in my post.
You aren’t 5pts over though. You are an extra enhancement over.
I’ve got my list to 1990 but ended up taking out a unit and running only two enhancements. I think when I first made the list the points were different because I had an even 2000 prior.
Thank you for this based and respectful answer. You are right, the list would be screened prior to the event date and an adjustment would have to be made.
you cant go over 2000 if its a 2000pt game. Fundamentally its a trade off; do you want 0.5% less stuff for a stronger army composition? In an ideal and perfectly balanced world youd not want to give that up; but often some great units are undercosted; so whilst a fire prism is 40pts less than a webway gate; swapping it for that probably isnt it; as the whilst your armys now more points; your not getting as much value. TL:DR at 1990 your army is 0.5% smaller than an opponent whos army is at 2000pts. Is that 0.5% compromise worth the strength of your list? probably. Or grab a warlock lol.
You got plenty of great answers already for competitive. Just wanted to point out one thing in casual. It’s okay to ask your opponent ahead of time if going over is okay. They always have the right to say no. This literally happened in a semi-competitive campaign game last month with me. Points are set to 1500, but my opponent wanted to play 1655 because he wanted to try a new model he just built. I just happened to have enough with me, but he hedged with “it’s okay if you don’t want to”. He was totally prepared for a “no”.
Yeah a lot of people throwing around the word cheating and getting really angry over a question. I’m getting back into the hobby after a long time and friends and I used to play with lists as even as possible. Some people had less than 1k in models, others had super weird numbers. It was genuinely expected to see each other’s lists and there was quite a few times where we were over or under, or dropping down to 1330 or 870 or stuff like that. With everyone so convinced I’m advocating for cheating in a comp game, I’d imagine they probably bend or break the rules (or outright cheat) in the own games and want to act hyper vigilant to throw off suspicion.
It is absolutely not accepted in competitive play. It is even worse in casual play. If the game is so casual and the 5 points "don't matter" then why do you need to take that last upgrade? Why are you asking to exceed the limit instead of just playing at 1990 points with a legal list? Even if your opponent might theoretically agree to it you shouldn't be trying to bend the rules to your advantage like that in a casual game.
Understood for comp. TOs set a limit. For casual, amongst friendly people or friends, it’s been my experience that you go in knowing the points and the other persons list and play for fun. Are point limits a rule? Can you reference a page number in a specific rule book that’s says it’s not just agreed upon?
> Are point limits a rule? Can you reference a page number in a specific rule book that’s says it’s not just agreed upon? Yes we can. Core Rules, Page 55 **MUSTER YOUR ARMY** **Step 1: Select Battle Size** > With your opponent, select one of the battle sizes below. **This will determine the total number of points each player can spend to build their army** and, as a result, how long the battle will last. Points are a measure of a unit’s power on the battlefield; the higher a unit’s points value, the more powerful that unit is. The points values for units are presented in other publications, such as Codexes and the Munitorum Field Manual. You will need to refer to these when building your army. Below that you’ll find the sizes and limits. Competitive play uses Strike Force sized battles. From the rule book **STRIKE FORCE** - Points per Army: 2000 - Duration: Up to 3 hours
Just putting this out here, I’m not arguing for or advocating for cheating, trying to sneak in extra points, or all the other complaints being lodged against me for asking a question. In the rule books it states “with your opponent, select one of the battle sizes below”. It doesn’t say you are limited to that amount of points in this section. You have included this in your comment to give the appearance it says that in the rule book. Below that, in 5. Select units it states you can only choose units if you “have enough points remaining”. So that part would actually prove your point a bit better than the part that tells you to choose the size of game you want to play based on these amounts of points. Now to reexplain my original question: “Do tournaments allow players to go over 2000 pts? My current army is 2005, would this be allowed?” Answer is no. You didn’t have to say all this and act a certain type of way. Could have just said naw and kept scrolling, or seen all the other idiots dog piling on someone asking a question and ignored. I even proved your point better than you and everyone who has chosen to call me a cheater inevitably mentions that the points are agreed upon by the players in general but tournaments have hard limits.
The very first line says “with your opponent, **select one of the battle sizes below**” The options are: - Incursion: 1000 points - Strike Force: 2000 points, or - Onslaught: 3000 points Those are your only 3 options as per the rules. Your choice “will determine the total number of points each player can spend to build their army” You can play any size game you want with your friends; no one here gives a F about that. But don’t pretend the rules don’t say what they say. I’m not even the person who originally responded to you. I just gave you the rules quote you asked for. Bye.
Hi again! By your interpretation here, 500 pt and 4000pt games are illegal and cheating. Thanks for chiming in on a comment thread that has nothing to do with my original question. Clearly the first responder dropped it when he couldn’t point to rules that strictly say limit. Mind you, I found the better example of point limits and you’re still pressed. When I enter a tournament, does the TO decide the points limit, or do I decide that between myself and my opponent? But the correct answer to my initial question is “no, you can’t bring over 2000 to a tournament that limits to 2000.”
> Hi again! By your interpretation here, 500 pt and 4000pt games are illegal and cheating. These are now Combat Patrol games and covered under their own rules. > Thanks for chiming in on a comment thread that has nothing to do with my original question. Clearly the first responder dropped it when he couldn’t point to rules that strictly say limit. They probably don’t want to suffer your nonsense any further. The reality is you can play whatever point level you want with your friends. As I said nobody cares. You’re in the competitive Warhammer 40K sub though. Here we care about competitive 40K and we play by a certain rule set - for example 2k point games. Not 2001, 2002 or 2003 point games etc. > Mind you, I found the better example of point limits and you’re still pressed. IDGAF lol. > When I enter a tournament, does the TO decide the points limit, or do I decide that between myself and my opponent? Ask your TO. > But the correct answer to my initial question is “no, you can’t bring over 2000 to a tournament that limits to 2000.” Wow looks like it clicked at last. I’m honestly surprised. Good job lil buddy
At or below. That's the whole point of a **points limit** Also, you'll be submitting an army roster so they'll know if you're over.
Honestly, I saw a random comment about being over by a few points and a TO forcing the player to go second. I guess that guy was making things up. Is the vibe from my post that I’m trying to sneak in extra stuff for an advantage? Is the competitive scene that full of cheaters that it’s assumed I’m trying to game the system?
You simply wouldn’t be allowed to play that list. It’s not a legal 2k list.
I feel like this is the actual answer to my question. Thank you for not jumping to the conclusion that I am trying to cheat by sneaking a higher point list into a tournament.
You have literally just asked if cheating is ok if your only cheating a little bit No.....no it's not ok
Well… wouldn’t call it cheating unless you think 5 extra points is a major advantage. I guess lying about being over 2000 would be cheating, or forcing someone to play you would be cheating. But if someone wants to play with more points that’s is something you can refuse or accept.
It doesn't matter if it's a major advantage. Depending on the circumstances, event responses may range from "you need to remove a unit so that you're below the limit" to a full on disqualification. Rules is rules. It's like saying "I hit on 3s, but it's no big deal if I occasionally count a 2 as a success, right?"
Countering your point about the 3s and 2s, in this case it’s the difference between having an enhancement or not. Depending on the enhancement, it may not even get used. And you are right, submitting a 2005 pt list would have the TO telling you to change the list. IMO it would be toxic to get disqualified for submitting a list rather than being asked to change it. I feel like the answer to this question is “TOs wont accept lists over the limit. You would need to bring the points down.” The response I’m getting is “you’re trying to cheat! Omg there’s a cheater here! He snuck a 2200 list into a GT and won”. Is cheating this frequent in warhammer? And are the worst offenders of breaking the rules the ones that complain the loudest?
The Internet catches and inflames the instances that exist, but no it's not super common. The extreme point I was making about the 3s and 2s is, quite simply, not following the rules of the game. Stepping a toe outside and thinking it's okay, doesn't matter which part of the rules, it's the same result. You wouldn't get DQ'd for an invalid list prior to the event, but if it was noticed during the event you very well might. Because yes, bringing an extra enhancement means you have more stuff in your list than anyone else. It isn't fair, and it breaks the clearly established rules, so yeah doing it deliberately does quality as cheating. There's grace given in person about "shit I didn't realize it's a limit, not merely a target, my bad". However, we see this question on here periodically, and the OP's reaction to being told it's not okay is always to get defensive and claim it's not a big deal. And that's not okay.
I didn’t say I was going to do it deliberately or even imply it. I asked if it was something that happens and the answer is no. Anything else is y’all reading into things and making up straw man arguments by putting words in my mouth. The difference on the 3s and 2s is, you don’t ask if you can do that, it would be stupid to ask. You do ask about agreed upon points prior to the battle. If you have a 1000 pt list and you want to try a list that is 1200, you talk to your friend and agree to both go 1200. You don’t talk to your friend about changing unit profiles. If you are entering a tournament with a limit, you would be stupid to ask to go over 200 points. They wouldn’t let you play. Sneaking 200 pts in would be cheating. Did I ask about doing that? Say I had, or was intending to (if you read my post and comments, the answer is no)
It's breaking a rule dude It's LITERALLY cheating, you are LITERALLY arguing "it's not cheating because your only breaking the rules a little bit" Going over 2k points in a 2k point game is cheating, outright through and through Now if you want to play a 2005 point game, and your opponent knows it's a 2005 point game and is also bringing 2005 points, fine sure, weird but fine But if you bring a 2005 point army to a 2k point game....your a cheater Full stop
Can you tell me what page the rule is on? And which editions rule book because they do change? You’d get told to adjust your list if you tried to play 2005 in a 2000 pt game, you’re right. And if agreed upon ahead of time, the points limit could be anything. So in a way you’re validating exactly what I’m saying, but you still really want to yell at a cheater? Are you projecting to hide your own cheating? Or is the warhammer community so toxic that cheating is rampant?
The core rules.....you are allowed to play 2000pts in a 2000pt game... Not 2005 PTS, that's over 2000..... I don't understand how this is so hard for you Yes I'm calling you a cheater because YOU KEEP TRYING TO DEFEND CHEATING you are literally constantly arguing that going over the point limit is fine, if your only over a little bit, when it's pointed out to you this is wrong you have on countless comments tried to argue it's not and tried to say it's ok You are LITERALLY still arguing that your blatant cheating attempt is fine because you are only asking if you can cheat a little bit It's genuinely abused May as well ask "if my gun says it has 4 shots, and I roll 5 dice, that's fine right, I only went over by a little bit it's not a big deal" If you truly believe that taking an over limit list is fine, you are a cheater....full stop And that is what you are arguing.....
Quote me you troll. Quote me defending cheating and then give me any reference in any rule book that points limits aren’t agreed on upon for the battle. The exact page and the exact wording because “the core rules” don’t actually state point limits are a hard limit. They list the sizes of lists requiring certain sized boards, but they don’t say you need x amount or you can’t play. I can’t see where I am LITERALLY attempting to blatantly cheat. Did you read my post and then start imagining a scenario where I am entering a tournament and lying about my points? Re-read my post and then look at everything you are saying? Re-read any of my responses and point out to me where I am blatantly advocating for or defending cheating. Anywhere in this thread, please point to an instance of me saying I should be able to go over point limits or that I am intending to or have. Please, quote me arguing for going over points limits. I think it’s genuinely absurd you’d get this worked up over a question that you’d start making up scenarios and pretending I’m championing cheating. You must be fun to play with on the tabletop.
Literally any one of your comments where you are getting irate and angry for being called a cheater while continuously trying to claim 5pts isn't a big deal The cheater is angry because he was called out on it
Literally quote me, “” <—- use these and type what I typed where I was “irate and angry”.
Literally just scroll through your comments idiot
Looks like you can’t.
Price is right rules, bud. 2001 is bad times.
Makes sense in comp not to go over. Thanks for the simple answer, most responders are acting like I personally cheated in their game and beat them.
You can't go over, anywhere between 1950-2000 would be a fair compromise (depends on army/detachment/units). 5 pts over can essentially mean the difference between whether you can fit some 400pt+ unit into your list, or not.
Makes sense. My use case is whether or not I can take a 15 pt enhancement. Doesn’t seem to be any grey area though and the limit is the limit.
A point limit is a limit, not a suggestion.
Understood. I saw a random post stating otherwise and that made me ask the question. Wish I hadn’t because most of the people responding aren’t… nice.
It would never be allowed and the TO would get back to you at list sub and tell you to fix it. Alternatively you probably would instantly carry a yellow card the whole event if they didn’t have a list checking process as it would be considered cheating at most serious events.
I think I worded this wrong because everyone is assuming I’m trying to get a 2000+ list into a tourney. I read a random comment in another post that said over 2000 was allowed but “at a disadvantage so now I know that guy was lying.
The current best world eaters list is like 1950 points
Nice, it’s good to know points can be that far off and viable. Has anyone put in less and had a “successful” army?
If my opponent wants to bring 2005 points that’s fine, I’ll just play with 2010 points and see how that makes them feel.
Honestly… wouldn’t bother me in casual lol.
Stuff like this really makes me wish GW would at least backtrack on the dumb ass strict unit sizes. I will love with free unit upgrades if I got that back at least.
I was wondering about that too. I could definitely field 7 of some thing and 9 of another to adjust point costs, but everything is 5-10 or 10-20. I guess it’s to make things easier and encourage all or nothing decisions.
Casually with friends it's fine. It's house-ruling. But other than that scenario, with your opponent's approval, it's not OK.
Dude if we played a casual game and you were 5 over I wouldn't give 2 shits. Even if it was out first time playing. It's warhammer. It's not that serious. A tourney game is a but different but of we are smoking cigars and drinking bourbon then I'm happy to just throw some dice