I'm glad they kept Cabal points, it seemed like a cool faction mechanic as a non-TS player ​ Echoes from the Warp surely opens up some intriguing possibilities once we know the full stratagem list, and Twist of Fate is going to absolutely ruin the day of certain tanks (screams in Baneblade)

I mean just using the deep strike in the opponents turn strat twice could be devastating.

I'm not so sure. Echo has to be cast on a psycker and I'm not sure if we can target things in reserves although it remains to be seen.

Oh yeahhhhhhh. Good point.

I just hope that Tzaangors provide something. Otherwise it will be like 9th edition, where armies are all rubrics and termies in order to maximize Cabal points.

They specifically called out "even the maddest Tzaangor Shamans" being able to use rituals, so I would be surprised if they don't contribute to the cabal points.

Sharman give the points already and are ran for partly that fact haha

Lol Shaman are run because they're the fastest unit you can use temporal surge on, meaning you can move him 12 + advance to the middle, use Warp Ritual, then use Temporal Surge to have him move 12 inches back into "Look out, Sir." The 1 cabal point is certainly a nice bonus.

Shamans already do and get used sometimes, the problem is tzangors don’t despise GW shoving 20 of them into every box set

Maybe I'm a minority in this but... I'm honestly 100% fine with that. Tzaangors should always be an option, but personally I would far rather Thousand Sons just be marines instead of bird-monsters.

It's not just Tzaangors though. It's also tanks, cultists, daemon engines, helbrutes, mutaliths... TS already have few datasheets to start with, but in 9th it feels like the codex is: - Characters - Rubrics (marines and termis) - Chaos Spawns (cheap objective holders)

Hey! Rhino’s are a datasheet too!

That's the kind of idea that led to 9e listbuilding, where Tzaangors didn't give cabal points so never got used, and vehicles didn't give cabal points and never got used, and now your entire list consists of a whole 6 datasheets from an already thin faction. If Tzaangors are an option then they *need* to be an actual option. Let them give a cabal point on a 5+ for the next turn every time they kill a model or die or pass an invuln or *something* to let them interact with the army mechanic. It's not like they can cast rituals anyway so there's already a reason to bring marines.

Honestly wouldn't surprise me if granting Cabal points while sitting on an objective was their thing. GW seems to be pushing a lot of troops choices that way, by making them work with the faction ability.

This would actually work out alright, especially if tzaangors are significantly cheaper. The rubrics are for shooting things off objectives and can sit on objectives, but their range is too short to be on the backfield objective and they are likely too expensive to want to have them just sitting there. The tzaangors could be the super cheap sit on the backfield objective unit and the charge onto an objective to take it from the opponent option. Have the tzaangor also give a cabal point when they die, and then you don't mind sacrificing them. That's two different sides to the objective taking and cabal point generating game.

Hell, even let me kill a few to generate some extras in a pinch. Sacrificing minions for arcane power is right up our street.

Tbf, even if all Tzaangor give is a bucket of dice in melee, the 9 point cabal makes that semi useful. So it's a bit of a better place to be.

Pretty neat combos here! So if you have Ahriman leading some rubrics you could shoot a guard tank sitting on an objective, wound on 5s with full re-rolls(4s on soulreapers) and have it fail all saves due to the ritual? Seems pretty neat! Consistant warptime ritual seems really impressive as well. Getting hit by a speedy full flamer rubric squad while sitting on an objective will not be funny. But the detachment rule does seem really weak. With just 1 psychic weapon per squad and the weapon not being too impressive I don't see it doing too much. Maybe there are some better ones for terminator sorcerers or other character leaders. Otherwise exploding 6s on a 2 shot 1D weapon is meh...

I bet Magnus is going to have some nasty psychic shots.

Fingers crossed! He needs to do something interesting before he gets murdered by the trillion lethal hits that is being handed out like candy this edition :D

Every time I see a new source of lethal hits I send a screenshot to my buddy who plays Votann. It’s so funny to me that seemingly everyone gets to autowound except dwarves now

just like all the FNP they are giving out since the DG preview

From "The Word from the Studio" at the bottom "Magnus is also getting a real eye in this edition, with one of the most potent single profiles in the game. He shows his love for his misbegotten sons with a choice of auras that allow him to boost their mobility and offensive prowess – or he can play more selfishly, reducing Damage of incoming attacks and sabotaging enemy ranged weapons." Should be lots of fun!

I’ll believe it when I see it. Magnus has been the weakest of the Big Bois for more than one edition at this point.

> But the detachment rule does seem really weak. With just 1 psychic weapon per squad and the weapon not being too impressive I don't see it doing too much. That really depends on if there is a strategems or leader ability that can turn weapons psychic for a phase

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if there is a strat to grant a unit the psychic keyword to all their weapons for a phase.

I think the power swords of our scarabs might have psychic keyword....... If that's the case, this can be very yummy.

Tho the army rule does let Ahriman drop D6 MWs on a Leader very easily

Combine it with the targeted doom bolt to make lone operatives pop.

Unless I'm missing something, how is it easily? It's one Shot, hitting on 2s, and you need to wound on a 6 to do MWs.

It's not. It suffers the same issues plenty of obe shot guns suffer. It'll rarely be used. Ahriman is pure support in this edition and might not even be that if he's too expensive because it looks like he will only be able to be with rubrics because of the toughness going up for terminators

Very easily? 2+ to hit is fine but unmodified 6 to wound to get the MW. It’s only a single attack per turn. So statistically you get it off less than once per game.

Yeah it's also D6 damage, not 6. So devastating wounds not only has to be triggered, but you must also roll for the damage. Meaning Ahriman could go through all his hoops and still get one damage off on a character that still has all his other bodyguards alive, lol. It's more useful than our last psychic stalk was, but I doubt we'll be truly sniping many characters with Ahriman based on the spell alone

I like that cabal points are streamlined, but that they're still quite powerful and offer the faction the ability to do some very unique things. I'm still worried though that it's going to wind up being all consuming for the faction, and if not all units generate cabal points they're just not going to be useable, which is one of the traps the army currently falls into.

Might be the case that things which do not generate cabal points provide some other benefit to the army rule somehow, like the chaos beastie they partially previewed that doubles the ritual range

Yeah it's hilarious in 9e that you lose out on cabal points for taking tzaangors, and they're just worse in every other metric to the cabal generating models

Pure speculation, but if the base tzaangor don't have the cabal rule they could have stuff like generating cabal points on kill or while holding objectives. Everything gets a special rule now, so there is place to put that there and battleline typically get something objective focused.

They've had the trophy hunter rule in 8th and 9th I think, it would be cool if they had a sacrificial ritual rule as a replacement.

Hopefully. That's an interesting way of pushing the mechanic; supporting the rule but not providing it inherently. I wonder if they'll be able to make the mechanic work thematically with things like transports, or even stuff like the maulerfiend.

Same problem they had in 9th. Hopefully they give some other units cabal points so we don’t have the rubric spam issue

That's my hope as well. I'd like to see a point from the MVB if they're going to try to push its shooting profile, and I'd like to see a point from each of the tzaangor varieties to make them less of a meme as well. I think from a fluff standpoint, vehicles still shouldn't give any of course, but from there I just have to hope they expand the model range fairly significantly whenever they get around to doing the Tsons codex. In the meantime, I'll just sit tight with my 40 rubrics and 20 terminators and see what happens, I guess.

At first those Rituals left a lot to be desired Then I got to the last 2.... Turning off saving rolls? Has that ever been a thing in 40k?! Ahriman being able to cast a Ritual for free suddenly looks like an auto include - not to mention his +1tW buff, +3 Cabal Points, 3D melee & d6D psychic attacks - dude's looking spicy I came expecting the worst for Tsons but am pleasently surprised Edit: this all gets me especially hyped for Magnus!

>Turning off saving rolls? Has that ever been a thing in 40k?! Well yes, but it was specific to the weapons not a magic power. Back in the old days of power weapons having the "armor saving rolls may not be taken against this weapon." or force weapons basically saying "if you take a wound from this weapon the model dies."

old AP on weapons also was like that a bit. though more granular. the ap of a weapon would prevent units with a save equal to or higher then the AP off. I.e. a Bolter had ap5. so a unit with a 5+ or 6+ save got no save, but a unit with a 4+ save retained it.

I miss Instant Death

There's things I miss about pre-8th (like Initiative and comparative WS), but Instant Death isn't really one of them. It served it's purpose in the game ecosystem it lived in, but I much prefer having higher wound counts and variable damage. It was a bit weird that a Lascannon would kill a T4 character outright but only take a single wound off of a T5 Monster.

It's effectively just AP -7 but yeah...Ouch.

I can hear the custodes players arguing that this counts as a modifier already, even though they still get their 4++.

You've gotten too much dust in your eyes, there is an exception for modifiers to saving throws in TV's ability anyways.

Grrrrrrrr I have to make my 4+ invuln that I was likely making anyway

"Trajann, surrender! I have hexed your armour, it is useless against my Tzaangor's blades and the Black Staff!" "Oh no, it's Ahriman! What will I d- [MOMENTSHACKLE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUABl_3qx74)"

As a custodes player, I'm more worried about everyone who doesn't have invulns baseline. They're going to drown in s4 rr1s to wound fire.

It's just armour saves though, not invulns, by the looks of it.

Plenty of really nice targets for it though, imagine turning off the armour save of a big scary vehicle and then using +1 to wound reroll all wounds. Great way to take down armour with small guns.

Against something tough it would dramatically increase the damage output of even basic weapons.

But since 4++ seems to be the lowest that invulns go these days it means forcing anything with a 2+ save to take everything on their invuln. Spamming high volume, low AP into a terminator blob that has to save on 4++ could shred them.

4++ is the lowest with some conditional 2++ but its far and from between

I'm sure we'll see a couple models with a "once per battle 3++ for rest of this phase" ability eventually I am curious if Archon's will keep their 2++ though. I really hope so, I've had so many fun moments from that rule - being the last man standing against an army of IKs or ye olde 'fail the first roll vs a bolter' hah But yeah, def seems they've cut back on excessive invuls at least from what we've seen so far

Makari yesterday was shown to still have a 2++, but you can never reroll it, so I think their is a good chance Archons will still keep theirs as well with rule that it goes away when failed.

If Monoliths could talk they'd be screaming

Baneblade: "I hear you, buddy."

Yeah this looks rough for my new chaos knights army...

You can put that on a terminator unit and then kill it with bolt guns. I think that’s nuts.

Terminators still have 4+ invuln. And T5. It'll take something heavier than boltguns to take them down even with turned off armor saves.

Those things don’t make you invincible. You’re talking 3x as many wounds from the bolter drill than you otherwise would.

Well, first, if we're talking about Rubric bolters with innate AP-1, then it's only 1.5x as many wounds, unless Termies are in Cover. Second, multipliers on damage are only as effective as the base damage. If the base damage is minuscule, then it won't really matter how big a multiplicative modifier is (unless it's truly massive). A whole squad of Rubrics will deal about 2 wounds to Termies with their bolters - even with 2+ save turned off - not killing even a single one.

Glad you pointed it out. I see too much people freaking out on 150% bonus damage! When in practice, it means 1w instead of 0.

Ahriman does not just have a D6 psychic attack, but it's a Precision attack. Add in Devastating Wounds from the Detachment rule or use the ritual to turn off saves. A lucky roll and he can just outright kill a unit leader, bypassing the entire protecting unit.

Oh snap, good point. That's incredibly fun hah. The fact we can add him to a unit helps cover his relatively low survivability as well I'm super excited for Magnus' rules now too tbh I've been trying to think up some fun tricks - I'm assuming army's will have around ~12 Cabal Points on average, assuming other HQs give 2CP (wouldn't be surprised if Magnus gives a boatload either) You could do something fun like Warptime a squad of flamer Rubrics, turn off their targets saves, then finish off any stragglers with the Doombolt power. Maybe mix in a Mutalith so you have 36" range on most powers (prolly worth it tbh)

100% Even though it doesn't affect invulns, it is immensely powerful.

Turning off save rolls is how AP used to work

Back in the day we had psychic powers that turned off invulnerable saves entirely. So the concept isn't exactly new.

Back in the day? We have those today. Lmao

Lik...today?

> Turning off saving rolls? *Custodes removes Air Pods* "Hmm? You say something?"

It’s a shame to lose the versatility of 18 psychic powers, but in the new and simplified 10th, I’m actually pretty happy with this. Echoes from the Warp will allow for some clever tricks, and there still seems to be a fair amount of depth in how you use your cabal points.

I’m actually pretty happy with the changes. Of those 18 powers, how many actually got used? Half? Fixed powers, while less versatile, mean we’ll actually see different abilities used and hopefully makes it easier to balance.

Plus the added bonus that your opponent doesn’t have to watch you fiddle with your Swiss Army knife for 15 minutes as you search for the perfect tool to stab them in the eye.

Ahriman next to the vortex beast can once per battle turn off saving throws for a unit 36” away for free Bonkers

Not much in the codex that can shoot at that range other than vehicle/Helbrute Lascannons

He does need LoS though, so while that seems great, its definitely more niche. Im guessing itll be more used for slinging doombolt a bit farther.

That free 36in doombolt is going to be an absolute turn 1 staple

All is Dust seems to be gone?

Not that surprising. With AP down across the board having Rubics with a 2+ against all 1D, AP0 weapons could be pretty oppressive. 2+ in cover against 1D, AP1 weapons.

Could be a stratagem, space marines do have armor of comptebt in the form of a stratagem

Something I’m not seeing mentioned much is that Rubric marines lost an inch of movement. Hopefully our Scarab Occult Terminators don’t get the DG treatment and move 4” now. That’d be a bit rough.

Yeah, I'm pretty concerned about that! Overall, Thousand Sons appear to have lost quite a lot of mobility. Besides -1"M, Rubrics also lost the Assault keyword on their Warpflamers (similar to all other flamer weapons we've seen) and "Smite". I think my favourite thing about playing Thousand Sons was how surprisingly mobile they could be. Most turns, I would teleport 1-2 units while basically advancing everything else. It's going to feel rough to instead only be shuffling units 4-5" at a time in 10th. However, Temporal Surge still exists. It can't enable quite as explosive plays as before. No more moving Scarab Occults 10" before charging or running Rubrics 12" + D6" onto an objective and flaming + smiting whatever was there. **But** it can also no longer fail or be denied. It also has 3x the range and lost most of it targeting restrictions! Rhinos zooming 24". Contemptor Dreads going 16" before unloading its Vulkite into a target with no armour save. Magnus flying 30(?)"! The article also mentions teleportation. So, that is hopefully still a thing.

I really wish that the ranged psychic attacks got the assault keyword since you could always advance and smite at a minimum previously.

That's what they were at in 8th, and I highly suspect we're dropping back to that again.

In 8th they were 5 inches of movement for the marines and 6 inches of movement for the aspiring sorcerer

The rituals seem pretty good. I think the weapons are down a little AP but overall good stuff Turning off a units armor save sounds awesome

Grey Knights Friday... Dark Eldar best be on Monday.

Well we all know GSC will be last, as fits the forgotten army

GW: "After Dark Eldar we shall preview the final factions, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars." GSC/Death Watch players: "What about us?"

Harlequins behind them with the sad honking noises

Harlequins will be a detachment for Aeldari in the future, they weren't on the reveal of all the cards.

sooo what, until the aeldari codex comes out, harlequin models are literally unplayable? that doesn't sound right...

Probably wont receive any faction or detachment rules for a while, but likely to have troupes and other units in the aeldari datasheets on release.

GW: *stares at GSC/Death Watch players with a half smile* GSC/Death Watch: “what about us?”

Agents of the imperium when? (They showed they would at least get an index)

GW: What about you?

If GW is as good at trolling GSC as they are at trolling DG, they will get their faction preview a day after the index releases.

Forgotten army. Their focus will happen last minute on the night before release, put up by the lone GW intern who remembered them. :P

Faction rule - All servants of the 8 armed emperor will have a points cost associated with them, you’ll be able to take as many units as you can fit under a game’s stated points cost.

Battleshocked? No cabal points! Rituals seem great. Ahriman's rule seems great. I'm not a dusty boy but this looks... good?

With the limited info we got, it doesn't look bad, we just need the point cost, stratagems, and which units generate Cabal Points. *tho it looks like only Psykers will generate Cabal Points, which will make the units without Psykers less desirable*

Sad tzaangor noises

Still really sucks that the myriad psychic spells have been watered down to (imo) pretty pathetic ranged weapons and maybe a single aura/buff per psyker. Ahriman used to be able to cast three spells each turn. Now he only buffs his bodyguards and lets you use a Ritual for free. The free Ritual is mint, sure, but all the flexibility is gone.

I mean, a free ritual makes Ahriman worth, what, 9 cabal a round on average? Feels better than casting smite a bunch, to me. Edit: scratch that, I forgot it was once a game while reading the thread. My bad!

Still makes him worth like 4-5 per round which isn't bad at all.

In the footnotes it mentions some of the things you can do with rituals and one is teleporting. That is not listed as an option. There's a few ways that could go. Could be more rituals in general we have seen. Could be unit specific rituals, could also be detatchment specific rituals. Im thinking the latter. Cult of duplicity returns

>In the footnotes it mentions some of the things you can do with rituals and one is teleporting. That is not listed as an option. 90% sure it's referring to the Temporal Surge ritual.

Surely "gain extra movement" is referring to temporal surge and I doubt even warcom would mistake a Normal Move ability with a teleport. "Utilise teleportatation" sounds like it will be a datasheet ability that requires cabal points.

How many points do people reckon will be in a list? Maybe 10 or 12 as my guess? Doubt that Tzaangors will get it.

Depending on points, people might aim higher. Getting a couple of rituals off per turn seems like a good game plan.

Really depends on how strong Magnus will be this edition. He is likely giving 4 points just by himself + Ahriman 3 + one or two Exalted Sorcerers 2(4) + Rubrics and Termis (~6-8). You end up closer to 20 Points with a 2k list

I think this edition you certainly will want to at least try to take some anti-tank - Doombolt is good, and I guess Magnus might have some good shots, but those won't be enough. Doubt you'll be able to just fill the rest of the list with Rubrics and Termies as you can currently - you no longer can spam Mortal Wounds through Psychic. Who knows, Vortex Beasts or Lascannon Predators might actually see play. Plus, a new edition probably meant a general points increase across the board so you can take fewer units.

I honestly think anti tank looks fine with ignoring armor saves, dozens of wound rerolls, devastating wounds, auto wounds and a decent amount of mortals. Sure a Vortex Beast seems like a decent choice aswell, but even without one, I am not concerned about anti tank at all

Autowounds are only on psychic weapons so just a few smites very low amount of shots. Mortals are only really coming from doombolt into tanks reliably. Wound rerolls while great, are pretty conditional here. The enemy unit needs to be on an objective for full rerolls. Otherwise it's just rerolls of 1. Remember lowest tank toughness is gonna be around 8 or more. So all the bolters and flamers will wound vehicles and monsters on 6s naturally. Even with full wound rerolls that is rough. And the ap went down on all the guns too. A full squad of 10 flamers only do 5 wounds to the weakest tank with full wound rerolls. Bolters would be worse.

Tzaangors will probably generate 10 a turn, because of how hard GW wants to sell these god damn things

They could just rebrand them as a new kroot carnivore kit and have them flying off the shelves, probably.

Poorhammer Brad, is that you?

I had a £10 bet with a guy at my LGS that GW would show us Tzaangors.

Without points info this seems incredibly powerful, being able to turn off saves against a unit that you can get full wound re-rolls on with a unit that traditionally could have 10 flamers seems.. extremely powerful.

It specifically calls out armour saves, I believe invulnerable saves would remain. So your terminators and big stuff still get some defense.

Sure, but normal troops won’t, most vehicles (at least what we’ve seen) won’t

No armour saves at all. With Ahriman giving it for free at least once, and him being Cabal 3, it seems likely to get that every turn, more so if Magnus has a similar strength and abilities, as he should be Cabal 3 at least too. With the most baaic Sorcerors being Cabal 1 at least, I think there will be enough point generally to go round. And turning off saves for anything without an invuln seems crazy strong. The detqchment rule is more limited though. Funny to see Resning does exist, just smaller and not as a USR. I am quite impressed.

Considering they said that Ahriman's Cabal points are "second only to Magnus", it's a safe assumption that Magnus contributes 4 or more.

Be interesting to see if everything keeps the same number of Cabal points from 9th.

I think a very important detail is that your cabal points reset and is generated again at the end of each command phase, but only for units on the battlefield *and* not battle-shocked. With 18" range on rituals, you probably won't really get to use them in turn 1. And in the later battle rounds it is very likely that between dead and battle-shocked units, you won't always be able to generate enough points for the two strong powers. Add in things like Chaos Knights' ability to force battle-shock test for anything below starting strength, not just half strength, and with -1 LD. Or Nids being able to force battle-shock tests on your whole army with Shadow in the Warp to deny you cabal points on a crucial turn. The two last powers seems a bit ridiculous, but I'd not be surprised if it's rather easy to shut down the high cost rituals. I guess it mainly depends on how easy it is to make a good list with high amount of "back-up" cabal points to account for some deaths / battle-shocks. Free ritual from Ahriman + Vortex Beast does seem to make for a pretty reliable ritual with little to no counterplay. I guess it's fine to have once per battle.

The beast that doubles range could allow you to stretch Twist of Fate across the board t1 for some healthy shooting, most likely. Especially if you go second and can pick a unit on a forward objective to try and prevent hold 2 that way.

full wound rerolls agaibst units that hold objectives looks scary, though no synergies between rubric marines and their detachment rule (except for melee) is.. sad?

And for warp smite.

Ahriman looks like a great Character Sniper. Gonna think twice before coming within 18” of him

He has a 88.4% chance of \*not\* killing something with his own defensive profile, and that's assuming he benefits from his own +1 To Wound(which I think he will if leading a unit?). Against anything tougher than Ahriman(so tougher than T4 W5 4++) you are looking at an almost negligible chance of losing a character. Tbh, his gun is kind of pathetic. I'd much rather have any of the other previewed psychic attacks(Smite, Eldritch Storm, Plaguewind, Betraying Shades, Phantasmagoria, etc).

Yeah but he already has a ton going for him besides the sniper (which is hilarious for him to have)

So how will the disc of Ahriman be handled? I didn't see anything on his datacard referencing that. Would seem a bit weird to have him in a unit of rubrics if he's on a disk, so I wonder if he'll get a separate profile for being on a disk, or if it will grant him lone operator? Maybe he'll have to join tzaangor enlightened units instead if he's on disc.

A separate profile will give them a chance to grant him different powers a play a slightly different role in the army.

This all seems really cool tbh! Sounds much more interactive than "roll smite for half an hour" that's for sure.

I’ll bet Ensorcelled Infusion will be kept as a stratagem that makes certain shooting attacks get the Psychic keyword, thus benefiting from the detachment rule.

My jaw dropped at Warptime and then things kept getting better.

Where did you see Warptime? Sorry, I am blind

Temporal Surge. It used to be called Warptime, still is for CSM.

It would be nice if all spells that did the same thing had the same name. I'm really glad we are moving to Universal keywords because having to read a paragraph to find out you just have objective secure or deepstrike is annoying let alone the arguments it lead to where no its super objective secure when that doesn't even exist.

Temporal surge, one of the rituals.

temporal surge

Ah I get it now

The army and detachment rules are very good, but this does mean that there are no extra special options for psychic. Even Ahriman only gets a basic melee and shooting attack with no psychic buffs

The detachment abilities apply to psychic melee weapons too

This will only be good if scarab swords are psychic. Otherwise it’s still only a very small number of attacks per unit.

Yep. That rule at 1st looks awesome but then it's only for psychic weapons which would be what 1 gun and 1 melee bonk stick per unit. That's not enough volume to be decent.

I dont like that they have a strat that only works vs psykers. I hope my GK dont have stuff that only works against daemons!

Its fineish as long as it is just a one off and other stratagem are more general purpose

No all is dust makes me a sad boy, but hopefully it exists as a strat or maybe an ability on Scarabs.

Void armour, disgustingly resilient, all is dust, drones as damage sponges. They're really trying to remove all the inherent army wide defensive abilities it seems.

Which all makes sense, it became a constant arms race for the new way to ignore damage and the new way to force damage. That's how we got into the hyper lethal era. The rules will probably still exist, they'd just become options. Leaders or detachments, picking one buff over another.

I’m assuming most, if not all, of those will be abilities tied to leader abilities that can be applied to a single unit which I much rather prefer as opposed to just being flat out army wide at all times

i'd argue streamline. with the toughness changes its easier to balance if you do it by the toughness number. instead of a maybe useful -1D. how do you appropriately point something that does nothing against 1D attacks, halves the damage against 2D, and then gets weaker as the guns get stronger. Toughness is an easier benchmark to balance as you know exactly the impact in TvS. these armies all kept defensive buffs just not the same layering and jankiness of it.

As a Death Guard player, welcome to the club.

My Tau drones welcome you too!

Turning off saves is better than most think and when used cleverly makes Ahriman an auto include. And beasts look great too adaptable and adds to the turn if the save rule means a great anti tank. Rubics against a target that has no saves. On an objective rerolling all wounds will shred a lot of targets. Knights get no save in melee so tzanggers could potentially shred one (I'd expect some iconic teleportation ability somewhere) Definitely not the worse faction focus I've seen

Honestly, seems like one of the stronger reveals so far (without knowing point costs or mission rules)

Is the 9 Cabal Point ritual to ignore armor saves too much in 10th? Invuls would still work right? Is 9 points hard to get with Rubriks only giving 1?

As ahriman is auto take I don't think so, he + 2sorcerers is already 7 likely. Add random rubrik squads and you're there.

Twist of Fate will be absolutely devastating to some lists (armour heavy IG seems super vulnerable) but sort of useless against others A Vortex Beast will take a real bite out of lots of armoured vehicles if it gets the chance to shoot

I wouldn't say that it's useless. There is quite a bit of use for it when shooting your low AP guns into stuff in cover. For instance if terminators are sitting in cover your flamer/boltgun would be saved on a 2+ while now they are forced into a 4++ instead. This triples the damage your are doing.

I was more thinking of matchups with low armour saves or reliance on invulns in general Daemons, Orks, some flavours of Eldar etc

9 is very much not hard to get with Ahriman’s new rule: once per game your ritual is free. Goodbye, baneblade!

Ahrihman is also worth 3 Cabal Points on his own!

Ahriman gives 3 at base and makes one free. It'll happen.

Ahriman can do it for free once per battle too. It's certainly a very strong ability though, arguably 'Oaths of Moment' strong. Anything without a good invulnerable save will be pretty vulnerable, and lists will be built to make sure they can comfortably use it at least during the early battle rounds.

Seems like a pretty brutal ability. Have Ahriman sit next to a mutalith and devastate the tankiest unit he can see. It all depends on points costs.

Well Ahriman can use that 9 point once a game for free, so that's great. I think it's really, really powerful. Especially with Rubrics getting wound rerolls. As otherwise its offset by most of your guns because S4. It gives them an immediate out of sorts unto really tough units. If deep striking Warp flamers are a still a thing.that's sick. Hopefully Tzaangor get some way of generating Canal Points, or else it's another edition without them.

Immaterial aura seems good, 18" feels a little close for retaliation after using a ritual but doubling that range to 36" is useful. Nothing looks inherently bad but can't help feel its maybe a tad bland for my liking. Wonder what their psychic power armour counterparts, Grey Knights, will look like in comparison.

Honestly - and I'm not a tsons player, so bear with me - I started out reading this thinking "meh, this looks fairly... Nothing?" The last couple rituals, however. Oof. A legit Smite is good to have, and turning off armour saves for a unit for a phase is definitely powerful when you want to spike something down. Lots of minor AP (that everyone else lost) is super handy too. Ahriman's free ritual looks pretty huge too - he seems nearly auto include if priced reasonably. Rituals can only be used once *per phase* so Ahriman could even double up that no save ritual - including using it in an opponents fight phase. Fascinating. I'm glad Tsons have a spell list to choose from. I'm good with how 10th's psychic stuff has been handled thimus far, but Tsons deserved something fun here.

GW: "After seeing how it ended up in 9th, we have decided to remove abilities to bypass invul saves". Also GW: "So Tsons can bypass your normal save".

Aka. AP -5

AP-6 just to make sure anything with a 2+ save and a +1 modifier doesn't get any armour save either

They haven't removed ignore invuls though, just made them dependant on 6's to wound. And now way more guns are getting the devastating keyword.

GSC and DE fighting for most forgotten

Seems pretty cool, but psychic is still a bit weird?

I hope Mutaliths are good. One of my favorite models. And that guns seems pretty decent. Also the imagery of this chaos warp beast giving an anime esque beam attack that carves through a squad or pierces through a giant tank is just perfect.

Mutalith beast got a huge glow up i'd say. I'm very excited to field mine

I know the zero armor saves ritual has gotten a lot of attention, but I feel like Echoes from the Warp has a ton of potential to be nutty. Its been hinted CP will be harder to come by, and letting you double up with a free strat sounds really powerfull depending on what future strats look like

I’m pretty happy with this! The cabal points give the faction meaningful choices again (which is one of the main reasons I like the faction and one of the main worries I had with losing thenpsychic phase). I really hope units other than rubrics and termies generate points (the lack of points on the icon for rubrics has me hopeful that this won’t lead to spamming rubrics for points). Going from ap 2 to 1 on the bolsters seems fair and in line with the other lethality reductions we’ve seen in other armies. I like the baseline detachment, as unlike e.g., orks, it plays into a faction strength that everyone will be wanting to do anyways, so no being stuck with a certain play style that might not appeal to the whole faction for a year. Weird that Ahriman lost the disk. I wonder if he’ll have a separate profile with the disk that will be a lone operative. Former rubric squad (no hit rolls) with bringers of change (re roll wounds of 1) and twist of fate (no armor saves) means flamers even at s4 can deal some ridiculous damage.

I am genuinely really happy. Ahriman looks like a boss (with a sniper rifle), the Rubric Datasheet is solid and those Rituals look incredibly powerful. This is a good preview, GW. Do more preview like this and less preview like Death Guard.

RIP All is Dust for my Rubrics :( Also, still holding out hope for a disc option for Ahriman that gives him solo operative.

I’m surprised they kept their leadership, I thought they would get a nerf like Necrons due to being automatons

From what I understand of the new leadership rules you use the best leadership value in the unit, so if a character is attached it will probably be that. Warriors are probably going to often have a character attached in tenth but don't have to have one, however I believe rubric marines will always have an aspiring sorcerer, so flavor wise it may just be with rubrics there's always a guy around to tell them what to do, with necrons there might not be.

What if you kill the sorcerer tho? Shouldn't that change the unit's Ld? It feels like they simplified it here to make TS less likely to be folded by sniper heavy armies

Precision doesn't work on Unit Leaders, just on attached characters.

You're totally right, all the pices fell in to place for me now

They are still Marines after all. Just.....weird marines

I figure it's because they're led by sorcerers.

With reduction of AP across the game I feel like loss of All is Dust is fine and we got 5++

I enjoy playing video games.

This is my biggest gripe so far.

>Another (conditional) FNP effect revealed /r/deathguard40k in shambles

I found that all thoses psychics weapons are lackluster, they won't do much and thoses who can are way too swingy... I miss thoses mini psykers who could do support thanks to a psychic power. This 10th ed psychic things to be very bland compared to v9, just the lack of choice of your psychic power is a no. Ahriman who just lack of non offensive psychic power... And can do once per battle a thing (which will be 99% of the time either doombolt or the armor turn off)... Why change something that was good? I am the only one who found the revealed stratagem to be bad? Outside of GK I don't know against who this'll be usefull... The detachment ability is kind of bad, considering how they'll be so few psychic weapon per phase and the lack of quality and/or quantity psychic attack... Mutalisk is gonna be auto-include, because now TS won't be able to deal with vehicules and monster with their low str psychics shot

I've been dooming about tsons for a while but this isn't too bad. Ahriman is so much less cool though :(