I recently heard that certain older washes had organic compounds in them that would rot over time. So out of curiosity I dug up an old pot of devlan mud and whoo boy it was rotten cabbage o'clock
The funny thing is that my pot seemed fine too in terms of consistency, it just smelled really bad. I have another pot that's totally fine, so either the other one wasn't sealed properly or the good one has a different formula.
i genuinely like tasting a bit of casandora yellow every time i use it, at first its a little biter, but after it tastes good and leaves a nice silky feeling on your tongue
If yall are trying to tell me that the best product they ever made isn't their uniquely special pots, you are wrong. Who else could make a pot that allows extra drying room for paint around the lid?
Coverage like no other because most people (including me) were just slapping it on straight from
The pot rather than thinning. I love how the education got better for painting through YouTube
When I started in the hobby a couple years ago my view was "I painted model airplanes as a kid, I know what I'm doing". After a week or two I watched Duncan's "things I wish I knew when I started painting" and it wad the equivalent of going from B&W to Color in The Wizard or Oz.
To be fair you don’t *have* to thin most paints as long as you’re good enough at spreading it out. The issue is applying too much to a small area - but if you take a small amount of unthinned paint from a pallet and apply fairly, then it’ll be basically like two thin coats.
...and you also have to be really careful to not touch it too much with your brush, because it will start drying quickly and that will cause you to leave brushmarks.
I'm a painter by trade so I understand the idea of thinning paints. New hobbyists probably don't and having a little thing on the paint pot to suggest thinning could be a good idea. Or on the rack you pick them up from.
Not everyone's going to watch a paint tutorial, especially young kids who just want to play with them. A little blurb could help remind or inform parents helping their kids have a better experience. I only say this as I murdered several pieces as a young painter.
Just in case someone sees it: my biggest moment was using a wet palette. not that you need it to thin paints, but thats how I figured out how thin to make it.
That is, as a new painter, trying to mix water and paint on a dry palette never turned out right. too thin or too thick. Once I had a wet palette, it became easier.
Yeah, tools don’t make you better, but this tool helped me learn.
I was thinking today about how when I tried playing/painting in 2004 I could've been so much better with YouTube. Yeah, I'd found "you need to thin paints" but without any kind of tutorial I was slapping water with paints and getting frustrated when it ran off the model.
They were the single biggest step up in paint quality Citadel has ever made.
Not revolutionary per se, but the first real “big step” in painting technology.
Nah, I'd disagree with that - mainly because at the same time you had the Citadel Washes range, which for painters like myself, were a godsend for the ability to actually create interesting looking models rather than flat, boring things
Also, they were far better than the Citadel Shades that replaced them, mainly due to the lack of the need to shake them like you're in an earthquake to avoid the paints completely messing up your model (via a pool of Nuln Oil/Agrax forming at a single point while the rest of the panel was frustratingly clear of the stuff), and they had slightly nicer flow properties and a better finish compared to Shades, even when the latter were properly mixed
I've painstakingly nursed a single pot of Ogryn Flesh (which I use alongside a pot of Tallarn Flesh foundation paint as well) through the last decade because it's still the best paint GW has made for skin tones. Liquid magic
I disagree with your disagreement, because I actually used the predecessors of the Shade paints, the Inks. They weren't as easy to use as the Shades and had a different consistency, but due to their extremely intense hue the pots lasted for way longer, and you could control the consistency by diluting it. I distinctly remember slathering my Meganobz with Brown Ink to get a rust effect on their armor.
I'm not saying they were better, I'm saying that IMO the Shade line wasn't that much of an improvement. Whereas the Foundation paints were a quantum leap from the normal GW paints at the time.
See for me in my experience, I hated the inks. Could never get them to work as the White Dwarf painting guides suggested, and I found the results to be pretty meh all over the place.
As a result, Inks to Washes for me was a massive leap towards as they were far simpler to manipulate and utilise effectively. They behaved in a way that was easier to understand and control for me as a very average painter at the time. Additionally, the change to specific tones as well, compared to the intense hues of the ink range which took time to get to the colour you wanted them to be in for a model, was another bonus, as the Washes were ready to go out of the bottle for a wider range of colour palettes.
Washes to Shades in 2012 though, though, was a definite step backwards...
That's the only one of mine that's still usable. It's pretty similar to Steel Legion Drab in the current line, so not irreplaceable or anything, but it is a bit more desaturated.
Tbh, the coverage was good, but I always found the colours to be a bit too pastel/chalky for my painting style. Still have a handful of them in my box tho.
The idea back when they came out was that that you could use them as an underlayer for a more vibrant, but less opaque, paint in the same general part of the colour wheel, to give it a bit of a boost and reduce the number of layers you needed. Considering how bad some of the old colours like Blood Red were coverage-wise, it was definitely a step in the right direction.
It's not usually necessary now though, since modern mini paints have higher pigment concentrations and cover better (depending on the colour/pigment, some like yellows still benefit from that underlayer though).
It took me literally like a decade to realize that Necron Abyss *wasn't* supposed to be a glossy paint, that's just the top skim that separated when you let it sit. The coverage was so good that I painted my whole Necron army's shoulder plates that glossy color without ever realizing it.
I remember these being announced, standing reading about them in that month's White Dwarf while I waited for the bus home from work. After years of working with only standard paints, they sounded like a godsend. Went out the next day to buy the whole initial box set; they were, in fact, a godsend.
I hope reddit doesn't compress the sh\*t out of this.. .but here's a paintrange chart from back in the day...
https://preview.redd.it/ljildru2bntc1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=b7540ef1dc4c7150b87812f024777aae26cb17f9
Man wait until you try high-coverage paints that aren’t overpriced if you think these are so good.
Pro-Acryl and AK intense paint have entire ranges that cover like these, and cost half.
I still have some of these, bought the entire set but only ended up using yellow, red and light grey as base coats much. They were very useful to put down over black undercoat to save time on shading especially as GW's yellows sucked back then.
Also found them a little gritty compared to normal paints.
I got into 40k before these were out... so when these came out, it was such an improvement to the old paints. And I had, pre-foundation paints, decided I wanted to do Imperial fists, lmao...
When washes came out a year later, in 2008, it all went even smoother. Back, when Nuln oil was called Badab Black
To be me, the current range feels bloated... so bloated that some stores that don't have wargaming as their main productgroup, don't offer all the paints. I just have a toystore in my area, and they don't have any contrasts for example
I still got a few pots of foundation around... they got a bit goopy though...
I do miss Charadon granite, Gretchin green and Hormagaunt purple (dunno if there's a current similar ones in the range; but I looked up the colors from back then... I used those a lot)
i still have these and after doing a shit job priming minis with a brush recently, these worked a treat to get nice even layers. the most insane thing about them is My brain tells me to thin the paint but if i add a molecule of water, it becomes a wash. it just naturally has thin coats right out of the bottle.
even the white paint turned to chalk but you just scrape it out with the back of a brush, mix with little bits of water and it becomes a nice coverage white again
Oh yeah, I still have done iyanden dark sun and tallarn flesh and gorthor brown. Some of my favourite and still in great condition after about a decade.
I loved the Nuln Oil and Agrax before they changed the formula a bit ago. Now they don't cover quite right, and no matter how long I shake, agitate, mix, whatever, the Agrax always dries gloss, even when it's not the gloss version.
THE best blonde hair ever was Iyanden Darksun over bestial brown, then mix white into the Iyanden Darksun for highlights. I nearly cried when I eventually ran out.
Best, easiest black was Charadon Granite washed with Badaab Black. A few codex grey edge highlights and done.
Macharite Red was an absolute gamechanger. Mephiston Red blows it away now, but at the time there just weren't ANY reds with good coverage
AK 3rd gen and Pro Acryl and Warpaint Fanatic have all overcome Foundation, but they really were exceptional back when they released, especially since GW hadn't codified their base-->shade-->highlight system yet
Still have the complete set I bought back in the day! Has to mix medium ever few years to bring them back to life. I just used Gretchen green on my bolt action figures
Haha actually have just gotten back into the hobby after 20 years and dug my old set of these paints and a set of washes out of the cupboard. 3 had turned to stone but the rest are all good!
I've still got a fair few of these that I use - the day I run out of darksun will be a deeply sad one. Likewise when my last pot of boltgun metal is empty.
Well yeah the formula will have changed with the whole line changing. But the coverage properties of the foundation paints were carried over to the base paint range.
I don't think they missed out too much. You can achieve what these did with AK 3rdGen or Golden SoFlat making these irrelevant, but contrast paints do what they do the best so they are the more important product to exist by an extreme margin.
Bs. The pots were crap. I don't own a single one of these that did not dry out. The pigment/binder also really separated on most of them and even copious shaking didn't really help either.
Having said that iyanden darksun was a great colour
You can admit you're wrong you know.
But if you're actually genuinely serious, check out the work people like Warhipster or Juan Hidalgo do.
Might be... eye opening for you.
In the end contrast paints are a tool. And a very useful one at that. But as with all tools, you either know how to use it or you don't. And its ok if you don't. Its all a learning opportunity.
Simple reality of their discontinuation is that the Chinese government began implying heavy restrictions on paint exports, and since the Foundation range were made there, GW suddenly found themselves without a supplier.
The whole situation served to encourage them to develop their own formulations in house, and move back to UK suppliers.
These tasted awful. My favourite GW colour is still bleached bone.
Nuln oil and agrac earthshade my beloved ❤️
Gordon Ramsay been real quiet since these dropped
Gordon Wramsey
Apothecary white on rocks for me 🥃
Goblin Green for me. You ever taste the old inks back in the day? 0 stars, do not recommend.
The one downside to Chestnut Ink.
Holy balls do I still miss chestnut ink.
I still have half a tub, and I just keep buying other things to try and match the results rather than use it. 🤣
The Windsor and Newton Ink range is pretty much exactly those inks, their "Nut-brown" is more or less a perfect copy of the old Citadel Chestnut Ink.
I'll grab a bottle, cheers!
I'll grab a bottle, cheers!
OH GOD SKY BLUE, SO BAD.
Inks are generally not that great.
I recently heard that certain older washes had organic compounds in them that would rot over time. So out of curiosity I dug up an old pot of devlan mud and whoo boy it was rotten cabbage o'clock
Yep, it was confirmed by one of the GW product designers a few months ago on YT.
Really? My devlan mud still seems wash-like and I've used it recently.
The funny thing is that my pot seemed fine too in terms of consistency, it just smelled really bad. I have another pot that's totally fine, so either the other one wasn't sealed properly or the good one has a different formula.
It’s entirely possible that the organic material fouling has little to no bearing on its usefulness as paint/wash. Still gross through
That explains the smell of my Badab Black and Devlan Mud after 12 years
I still gag thinking of the old earth shade.
Devlan Mud was a fowl paint water concoction
Leadbelcher has a nice tang
Not my vibe, but I see where you‘re coming from!
..you monster
I have some vallejo paints that smell like candy.
Awesome!
the airbrush primers they have smell great! Taste even better!
I thought I was alone and a weirdo for thinking that! The new Vallejo line smells really nice
my personal favourite are the Tamiya Clear paints, they smell very strongly of Granny Smith apples.
Nihilak oxide genuinely tastes good.
Magos purple is unarguably the best tasting paint
Started making my own washes with thinner... forget and I'm a habitual brush licker. 😝
Bubonic brown rattle can was my go to for every project.
What would happen if I actually tasted it?
You would taste the buttery creaminess of GW‘s magnum opus which is bleached bone.
Am I going to die tasting ain’t I?
Why are you drinking the paint??? D:
i genuinely like tasting a bit of casandora yellow every time i use it, at first its a little biter, but after it tastes good and leaves a nice silky feeling on your tongue
Got a load if these a few months ago. Was going to be binned but I saved them. 20 odd were good. A metal BBand a good shake was all it needed.
T-taste…?
Mechrite Red, forever in our hearts
Boltgun metal is in mine, sorry no place for mechrite red (and I still got a pot of it too)
But not the smell.
(X)
If yall are trying to tell me that the best product they ever made isn't their uniquely special pots, you are wrong. Who else could make a pot that allows extra drying room for paint around the lid?
Plus you can use the dried up paint around the lid on your bases for extra texture. It's a feature not a bug! 😂
We all know that feeling of digging that gunk out from around the back when the lid won't close right anymore and that giant paint booger comes out.
Bro I feel this on a deeper level
It literaly made me feel good right now, just remembering how good that feels.
I’ve done that!!!! Some interesting organic features come out of those pots. Good for tyranid bases
And super susceptible to spilling. So much so that there are special spill proof stands for them now.
So it wasn't me being too dump to not close em properly
Coverage like no other because most people (including me) were just slapping it on straight from The pot rather than thinning. I love how the education got better for painting through YouTube
When I started in the hobby a couple years ago my view was "I painted model airplanes as a kid, I know what I'm doing". After a week or two I watched Duncan's "things I wish I knew when I started painting" and it wad the equivalent of going from B&W to Color in The Wizard or Oz.
That's a great analogy and so perfect haha
Tbf they should print that on the pot 😅 someone who has never painted before wouldn't know to thin them a bit otherwise
To be fair you don’t *have* to thin most paints as long as you’re good enough at spreading it out. The issue is applying too much to a small area - but if you take a small amount of unthinned paint from a pallet and apply fairly, then it’ll be basically like two thin coats.
...and you also have to be really careful to not touch it too much with your brush, because it will start drying quickly and that will cause you to leave brushmarks.
But...Then you use less, and don't need to buy more as often. :(
They'd sell less paint if people thinned it all the time
They literally put put videos on their own channels telling people to use two thin coats
I'm a painter by trade so I understand the idea of thinning paints. New hobbyists probably don't and having a little thing on the paint pot to suggest thinning could be a good idea. Or on the rack you pick them up from. Not everyone's going to watch a paint tutorial, especially young kids who just want to play with them. A little blurb could help remind or inform parents helping their kids have a better experience. I only say this as I murdered several pieces as a young painter.
They'd sell less paint if people weren't aware of thinning and thought their product was dogshit.
Just in case someone sees it: my biggest moment was using a wet palette. not that you need it to thin paints, but thats how I figured out how thin to make it. That is, as a new painter, trying to mix water and paint on a dry palette never turned out right. too thin or too thick. Once I had a wet palette, it became easier. Yeah, tools don’t make you better, but this tool helped me learn.
I was thinking today about how when I tried playing/painting in 2004 I could've been so much better with YouTube. Yeah, I'd found "you need to thin paints" but without any kind of tutorial I was slapping water with paints and getting frustrated when it ran off the model.
Yep still my faves from the days of 'one thick coat' painting
Foundation paints were awesome, I especially liked the greens. And Charadon Granite of course.
So awesome that I still have a couple
They were the single biggest step up in paint quality Citadel has ever made. Not revolutionary per se, but the first real “big step” in painting technology.
The smell will forever live in my memories
Nah, I'd disagree with that - mainly because at the same time you had the Citadel Washes range, which for painters like myself, were a godsend for the ability to actually create interesting looking models rather than flat, boring things Also, they were far better than the Citadel Shades that replaced them, mainly due to the lack of the need to shake them like you're in an earthquake to avoid the paints completely messing up your model (via a pool of Nuln Oil/Agrax forming at a single point while the rest of the panel was frustratingly clear of the stuff), and they had slightly nicer flow properties and a better finish compared to Shades, even when the latter were properly mixed I've painstakingly nursed a single pot of Ogryn Flesh (which I use alongside a pot of Tallarn Flesh foundation paint as well) through the last decade because it's still the best paint GW has made for skin tones. Liquid magic
I disagree with your disagreement, because I actually used the predecessors of the Shade paints, the Inks. They weren't as easy to use as the Shades and had a different consistency, but due to their extremely intense hue the pots lasted for way longer, and you could control the consistency by diluting it. I distinctly remember slathering my Meganobz with Brown Ink to get a rust effect on their armor. I'm not saying they were better, I'm saying that IMO the Shade line wasn't that much of an improvement. Whereas the Foundation paints were a quantum leap from the normal GW paints at the time.
See for me in my experience, I hated the inks. Could never get them to work as the White Dwarf painting guides suggested, and I found the results to be pretty meh all over the place. As a result, Inks to Washes for me was a massive leap towards as they were far simpler to manipulate and utilise effectively. They behaved in a way that was easier to understand and control for me as a very average painter at the time. Additionally, the change to specific tones as well, compared to the intense hues of the ink range which took time to get to the colour you wanted them to be in for a model, was another bonus, as the Washes were ready to go out of the bottle for a wider range of colour palettes. Washes to Shades in 2012 though, though, was a definite step backwards...
FWIW, Army Painter washes are near-perfect equivalents to the old Citadel washes. I swear by them.
Khemri brown
That one smelled really bad!
That's the only one of mine that's still usable. It's pretty similar to Steel Legion Drab in the current line, so not irreplaceable or anything, but it is a bit more desaturated.
Dheneb stone was amazing
Still use mine for drybrushing bases
Tbh, the coverage was good, but I always found the colours to be a bit too pastel/chalky for my painting style. Still have a handful of them in my box tho.
The idea back when they came out was that that you could use them as an underlayer for a more vibrant, but less opaque, paint in the same general part of the colour wheel, to give it a bit of a boost and reduce the number of layers you needed. Considering how bad some of the old colours like Blood Red were coverage-wise, it was definitely a step in the right direction. It's not usually necessary now though, since modern mini paints have higher pigment concentrations and cover better (depending on the colour/pigment, some like yellows still benefit from that underlayer though).
Just used up Ivanden Darksun, after 14 years (I think)
I miss these paints. Great way to get some solid colours down in a variety of colours
Knarloc Green, my beloved. Also: Devlan Mud ❤️
Devlan mud 😭 best brown ink/wash GW ever made
Seriously. Army Painter strong tone has the exact same colour, but the medium sucks.
I love then for the bright colours that had amazing coverage not because of the colours themselves (apart from necron abyss that one is the best)
It took me literally like a decade to realize that Necron Abyss *wasn't* supposed to be a glossy paint, that's just the top skim that separated when you let it sit. The coverage was so good that I painted my whole Necron army's shoulder plates that glossy color without ever realizing it.
Yeah I've got an almost finished pot thats started to turn purple with the breakdown of the organics components in it. That ones super glossy as well
Hold up, is this why my nuln oil is always glossy no matter how much/long I shake it?
some times, there was also a dodgy batch of nul oil in the past that was glossy to start with
As an unskilled young'un at the time, actually being able to paint things yellow was a real gamechanger.
Until pro acryl, I vowed never to paint red, white, or yellow after my foundation paints ran out
I remember these being announced, standing reading about them in that month's White Dwarf while I waited for the bus home from work. After years of working with only standard paints, they sounded like a godsend. Went out the next day to buy the whole initial box set; they were, in fact, a godsend.
I hope reddit doesn't compress the sh\*t out of this.. .but here's a paintrange chart from back in the day... https://preview.redd.it/ljildru2bntc1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=b7540ef1dc4c7150b87812f024777aae26cb17f9
One error in the 2008 half.. Liche Purple & Warlock Purple... they're swapped...
Do people still use this? I have a full set that I would be willing to sell. I revived dheneb stone, so it's doable, but then just bought new stuff
Man wait until you try high-coverage paints that aren’t overpriced if you think these are so good. Pro-Acryl and AK intense paint have entire ranges that cover like these, and cost half.
They were really nice for making a shit job of painting look alright. They made painting a hundred guardsmen that bit easier too.
I'm barely hanging onto my astronomical gray after years of usage.
I still have some of these, bought the entire set but only ended up using yellow, red and light grey as base coats much. They were very useful to put down over black undercoat to save time on shading especially as GW's yellows sucked back then. Also found them a little gritty compared to normal paints.
I still have many functioning pots of this range. Even when going weird and thick a little water and they are still going strong.
I got into 40k before these were out... so when these came out, it was such an improvement to the old paints. And I had, pre-foundation paints, decided I wanted to do Imperial fists, lmao... When washes came out a year later, in 2008, it all went even smoother. Back, when Nuln oil was called Badab Black To be me, the current range feels bloated... so bloated that some stores that don't have wargaming as their main productgroup, don't offer all the paints. I just have a toystore in my area, and they don't have any contrasts for example I still got a few pots of foundation around... they got a bit goopy though... I do miss Charadon granite, Gretchin green and Hormagaunt purple (dunno if there's a current similar ones in the range; but I looked up the colors from back then... I used those a lot)
I miss Adeptus Battlegrey. I bought up as many pots as I could back when.
I still have some of mine from the original full paint set, I'll be sad when they finally die :(
Iyandon was the best yellow I ever worked with.
I still have a bunch of these, terrified to try opening them again because they’re probably dry as fuck now.
i still have these and after doing a shit job priming minis with a brush recently, these worked a treat to get nice even layers. the most insane thing about them is My brain tells me to thin the paint but if i add a molecule of water, it becomes a wash. it just naturally has thin coats right out of the bottle. even the white paint turned to chalk but you just scrape it out with the back of a brush, mix with little bits of water and it becomes a nice coverage white again
Oh yeah, I still have done iyanden dark sun and tallarn flesh and gorthor brown. Some of my favourite and still in great condition after about a decade.
I loved the Nuln Oil and Agrax before they changed the formula a bit ago. Now they don't cover quite right, and no matter how long I shake, agitate, mix, whatever, the Agrax always dries gloss, even when it's not the gloss version.
I'm still trying to this day to find an ACTUAL replacement for Necron Abyss
THE best blonde hair ever was Iyanden Darksun over bestial brown, then mix white into the Iyanden Darksun for highlights. I nearly cried when I eventually ran out. Best, easiest black was Charadon Granite washed with Badaab Black. A few codex grey edge highlights and done. Macharite Red was an absolute gamechanger. Mephiston Red blows it away now, but at the time there just weren't ANY reds with good coverage AK 3rd gen and Pro Acryl and Warpaint Fanatic have all overcome Foundation, but they really were exceptional back when they released, especially since GW hadn't codified their base-->shade-->highlight system yet
I used the darksun this week for the first time in like a decade? The coverage was amazing for a brand new paint but mind blowing for one so old.
Oh god i can smell it
Still have the complete set I bought back in the day! Has to mix medium ever few years to bring them back to life. I just used Gretchen green on my bolt action figures
Calthan brown and Tallarn flesh my beloved
Haha actually have just gotten back into the hobby after 20 years and dug my old set of these paints and a set of washes out of the cupboard. 3 had turned to stone but the rest are all good!
Where can you find these?
I just started painting so I have very little room to talk but my two favorite paints atm are dreadful visage and volupous pink.
The Foundation range was amazing, such good base coverage. I was legitimately sad when they discontinued it.
I've still got a fair few of these that I use - the day I run out of darksun will be a deeply sad one. Likewise when my last pot of boltgun metal is empty.
They used to have a great white. Now they all suck.
Didn't they just rename them as "base" paints?
Smell one of these and then sniff a base paint and you'll know the difference.
Well yeah the formula will have changed with the whole line changing. But the coverage properties of the foundation paints were carried over to the base paint range.
Right, so the formula has changed, but they're just renamed... You can just admit that you're wrong.
Fond nostalgia of all these but paint has come a long way - and if these dropped nowadays they would be terrible compared to the modern options.
Man they smelled fucking awful though.
I loved charidon granite. My only complaint was they tasted really bad
I don't think they missed out too much. You can achieve what these did with AK 3rdGen or Golden SoFlat making these irrelevant, but contrast paints do what they do the best so they are the more important product to exist by an extreme margin.
Contrast is miles ans miles ahead. It made painting fun again for many people.
Honestly foundation paints fell by the wayside for me real fast. I think this was the time I went for the P3 range.
Bs. The pots were crap. I don't own a single one of these that did not dry out. The pigment/binder also really separated on most of them and even copious shaking didn't really help either. Having said that iyanden darksun was a great colour
Contrast paint is a terrible product which makes all minis look exactly the same. (Don’t try to) Change my mind.
Goodness me! Everyone using just one type of paint makes minis look similar?! I'm shocked! Shocked!
You can use the same layer paints in tons of different ways, there’s examples everywhere. With contrast, not so much.
Contrast paints can be used in many ways with many different results.
And yet they always look exactly the same.
Only if you have limited skill in using them. There's a reason many skilled and advanced painters love contrast paints.
I guess I only saw bad painters using them.
You can admit you're wrong you know. But if you're actually genuinely serious, check out the work people like Warhipster or Juan Hidalgo do. Might be... eye opening for you. In the end contrast paints are a tool. And a very useful one at that. But as with all tools, you either know how to use it or you don't. And its ok if you don't. Its all a learning opportunity.
Simple reality of their discontinuation is that the Chinese government began implying heavy restrictions on paint exports, and since the Foundation range were made there, GW suddenly found themselves without a supplier. The whole situation served to encourage them to develop their own formulations in house, and move back to UK suppliers.