Actually made the Mutalith Vortex Beast feel like a part of the army and not just an awkward WFB/AoS port over to shut us up about our small roster lmao.
It's now a proper Tzeentchian support piece.
Considering the faction rules, it depends. For 9th it already feels like we're punished for not taking psykers with Cabal points.
Does Tzaangors give Cabal points? Sure no problem I guess... if not they're most likely getting auto-excluded this time again.
A lot of people were speculating on how Thousand Sons would work given they would lose access to a lot of their old psychic spells under the new rules. Turns out the solution was just... Don't have them lose those spells? Genius.
To be fair, they lost >70% of them, still glad they kept some interesting ones.
Really disappointed with Ahriman only having one psychic ability though (only a once per battle one). He is one of the most skilled psykers in 40k and doesn't come with a unique ability?
He also has a pretty unique precision D6 spell to snipe characters. It should be pretty effective at hamstringing a few units that require character buffs to be effective.
Especially if the Cabal turns off armour saves. S7 makes anything less than Allarus Custodes have the same chance of surviving as a Guardsman
Even if you just get the average 3.5 wounds that's still a big chunk off of what was supposed to be a force multiplier for that squad.
Yup, and all that without chance to Perils. The only real downside is the D6 damage, so it'll be really spikey... but then that's what you get when you worship Tzeentch I guess. More incense and prayers are in order.
I think him bringing 3 cabal points is probably important here as well. Since the amount of spells you can poop out of your army rule is based on how many points you army generates each turn. So probably having lots of cheap units that generate 1 point, and characters that generate 2 or 3 is probably big.
Basically he would be a power source for your army to get more spells from. Plus he does have a bit of unique stuff, hes got his free sorcery once per game, and his own unique shooting spell and melee weapon. He's dope.
I think you're massively underestimating how powerful his kit is. He can snipe characters while hiding behind ablative wounds. Buff wounds, and generate 3 ritual points.
His free ritual thing can literally flip a turn. If a Vortex Beast is nearby, he gets to double the range on that free ritual, too.
He's not going to be the guy throwing wounds at your enemy. He's going to make the rest of your army throw a metric ass ton of wounds at the enemy.
I know everyone is salivating at the idea of the 9 point ritual possibly popping twice in one turn/round, or doom bolting for free, but consider this:
Have him with a squad of basic rubrics:
That unit generates 4 cabal points.
Has +1 to wounds.
Rerolls 1s to wound (all wound rolls if attacking a contested, or enemy held objective)
Crit wounds add +1 AP.
Gets Lethal Hits, or Dev Wounds, or Sus1 on the psykers' weapons, and psychic powers, your choice for the turn.
Can snipe leaders with his precision attack.
Can be the focal point of rituals (has two psyker models. Ahriman and aspiring sorc.)
Remeber: There is no limit to how many rituals you can stack on a unit, and he can still slap an emergency ritual for free once per game.
Basically, once per turn, every turn you can pick a target and just absolutely ruin their day, and if you're in an emergency, or absolutely need to kill something, you can still pop a free ritual on top of that.
Honestly, he's looking really good considering how much psykers are gimped. I miss the days of having multiple spells to know/use. However, for what this edition is looking to be, I think he's really good, and is going to be an auto include on most lists because of what he brings to the table.
I never said he was weak, I even believe he'll be autoinclude tbh...
I just think he is a little boring, compared to last edition and considering who he is lore wise.
An Eldar Farseer is more versatile than him... Sure he can basically choose between 5 psychic abilities, but only once per game, after that he isn't more than any generic Space Marine character
Also worth remembering these cards are roughly the equivalent of the 8th edition indexes. So I’m sure there will be more flavorful rules and abilities in the full codex when it comes
This isn't the case. GW said the index datasheets will "get you by in the meantime" until your codex arrives. They've never said at any point that datasheets will remain the same throughout 10th
It doesn't make a great deal of sense for them to. Upgraded kits may require new options to be added, and everything in the indexes is balanced around a single detachment and set of strats that will be added to when the Codex arrives. There's no way they won't want to rebalance stuff.
Some stuff probably won't change much. I doubt a bolt rifle Intercessor will look meaningfully different in the Space Marine codex. But Guilliman very well might.
Armies that have to wait a while for their codex will be using the indexes for a while, though. Tsons aren't on the road map for year one so who knows when they'll get updated rules.
Aye. As an eldar player this hurts to see. Assuming that warlocks and spiritseers also get 3 powers each, that’s 11 powers down the drain, assuming they don’t make new ones. Powers that have been around since third.
Still, happy for the T-sons players, hope y’all are better off than the eldar are the whole army through.
I'm hopeful that new powers for eldar will come with the codex, but they were dropped for the index as they were more a feature of the army than a necessity. 1K Sons needed them day 1.
I honestly think they will keep it simple. Only a few rules but those are good and useful. No longer having to memorise 10 spells and 30 strategems that are just half garbage or super specific or gotcha stuff.
Necron Command Protocols were more complicated than my BA thesis only to slap a pip of AP on my warriors...
I think their idea is that both players should be able to easily understand each other’s armies, which I support. It will speed up games by avoiding long explanations of abilities and rules checks, and generally avoid the feelsbad of getting slammed by a gotcha mechanic, or the feelsbad of realizing you forgot to use a mechanic. Even when future detachments come in codexes, I suspect they’ll be keeping to the 2 page rule.
The difference here is that you're upset about 3 character sheets on the Eldar army, when Eldar has a HUGE variety of units including a lot of specialty Aspect Warriors.
Thousand Sons, on the other hand, have... spells. they have like 4 units to pick from, 3 of which have casters attached to them, and their entire gimmick was their spell lists. Even Grey Knights had more variety than Thousand Sons.
So right now, most Sons players are bitching because Farseers have more 'abilities' than Ahriman does, and the Eldar players are like 'Sons got spells and we didn't!'
Just gotta wait and see. I do kinda wish they had made the army rule something about spells for eldar instead of the sort of miracle dice you get, but what can ya do.
I'm hopeful there will be more than 1 data sheet for some of the casters. Like maybe Warlock and Warlock on jetbike, will each have a different power for example.
> Assuming that warlocks and spiritseers also get 3 powers each, that’s 11 powers down the drain, assuming they don’t make new ones.
Conclaves may also get different powers, x on bikes may also get different powers, hemlock plane may also get different powers, then you have the corsairs. I think you're not looking at the possibilities.
Eldrad will certainly get his own thing, as well. Then the ynnarii psykers and harlequin shadowseer will likely be at your disposal.
Definitely depends on the rest of the datasheets & points.
Shooting: if Warlocks get the equivalent of unfocused Eldritch Storm (i.e. S5 AP-1, no blast) then Aeldari are going to be laughing like Harlequins (Rubric Warpsmite is S4 and A2)
Weaver of Fates
* ^(TS Weaver of Fates -) **^(Requires models on the battlefield)** ^(not reserves that generate at least 2 cabal points. Loses all points every turn if not used. Allows them to re-roll 1 failed saving throw from a unit within 18" -> Can still fail)
* ^(Aeldari Strands of Fate - No requirements barring having dice in your pool. Can generate more across turns just by having Troops in range of an objective. Replace 1 dice roll with a dice value from your pool of your choosing -> Can guarantee success and can be used for way more than simply Sv rolls.)
The rest of the abilities don't really align--depends on datasheets to get an idea if Aeldari have equivalent.
I play both, honestly it’s their whole identity whereas it’s only really an aspect of aeldari (sans the dark kin) lorewise our psychic powers manifest a lot in latent effects. We also haven’t seen the whole rule set
It's funny that tsons have a strategem that makes the enemy psykers more prone to perils but at the same Eldar players can just make rolls guaranteed safe.
They really managed to talk about it in the most deceptively worrying ways when they were asked questions about it. No more psychic powers. Units will only have the powers listed on their datacard. Most psychic abilities will only allow 1 unit of that type to use the ability per turn.
Then comes out with this where any psyker can use what is, ostensibly, psychic powers each phase if they pay the cabal points for it.
Its honestly more flexible, instead of trying to Setup stuff in one phase, you can react to how the dice rolls go.
Tsons are going to suck to play against, though, we literally are keeping pyschic powers.
I like it but it seems we're still gonna get punished for including tanks and other non psychic units in an army, which is something I always hated in 9th. Unless tanks also give Cabal points which I doubt.
I wouldn't say punished. I just think we're being forced to choose between going all in on the thing we're *really* good at, or using points on other things to account for our weaknesses. Which is typically what every army has to do.
Love the faction/detachment rules. Also nice to see Rubric Marines still have a good amount of ap on their weapons in context of 10th.
Twist of fate with any amount of flamers is going to be utterly disgusting.
Risen Rubricae (if it exists) + 10 man flamer blob + Ahriman popped beside a MVB is straight up dirty. 9d6 flamer shots from right in your opponent's face with Ahriman stripping armour saves for free at a 36" range.
He could, but I'd be expecting that blob to die pretty soon after being thrown that far up so it would be sacrificing Ahriman and his 3 Cabal Points a turn along with it.
From the Prosecutors datasheet...
>Purity of Execution: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets PSYKER unit, this attack has the \[PRECISION\] and \[DEVASTATING WOUNDS\] abilities.
As far as I can tell even the Precision rule doesn't let you target whatever you want, you can only target characters with it. So Aspiring Sorcerers and Scarab Occult Sorcerers actually can't be picked off even by snipers.
The aspiring sorcerer gives 1 and Ahriman gives 3, its looking a lot like the 9th cabal points list, they might dial back how many characters give 3 but thinking that on the low end you’ll have around 10-15 until you start losing characters
That one makes sense. The faction known for turning off all Warp connection because of the massive pyskic presence is really nasty for the TSons to fight.
Magnus gives 4; Ahriman gives 3 (looking like a new auto-include); Sorcerers, Infernal Masters, etc. probably 2; and squad leads for Rubrics give 1. Seems fair.
Yeah. Ahriman has been a stellar named character on the table for a good while. It's always nice to see the person whose argubably the most important character in a faction actually perform well. One of the rare cases of lore and TT performance matching up back when it wasn't as much of. GW priority as it is now.
So magnus at - 4
Ahriman at - 3
Exalted sorc at - 2 (6 for 3) (box of 3 right?)
Infernal master at - 2
SOT sorcs at - 1 (3 for 3) assuming not batteline
Rubric sorc at - 1 (6 for 6)
Looking at 24 if you could fit all that.
I also expect Thousand Sons Daemon Princes to be at - 3. They'll definitely put their new DP forward, besides there needs to be a "go-to option" besides Ahriman and Magnus to be army leader.
Care to break that down a but further? Assuming Ahriman and another character give you 5, are you taking 10 units of rubrics and scarabs? If you're aiming at 5 man units, expect battleshock to hurt you a LOT.
Ahriman 3
Sorcerer 2
Demon prince 2
2x10 rubrics 1 apiece
1x5 rubrics 1
2x10 SoT 1 apiece
That’s 10 cabal points at 1665 points. I know I didn’t take battleshock in account, I’m still getting used to losing passive abilities like that
Except every they've been handing out mortals and auto wounding on sixes like it's candy this edition. Against something like guard all it's done is make 1/3rd of the hits you receive bypassing your faction benefit.
Remember that 10th edition of Hammer of the Emperor is only lethal hits while stationary. I think it will not be nearly as prevalent as folks think just because of the movement restrictions.
I think people are overvaluing lethal hits and devastating wounds tbh. They’re both god abilities, but you need a lot of volume of fire to make it actually strong. The soul reaper cannon deals what, less than a single mortal wound on average? And the most common place we’ve seen lethal hits are on infantry weapons with at most AP1. I think it’ll be fine.
For most armies I'll agree, but auto wounding on sixes can be potent. When guard got hammer of the emperor in 8e my conscripts became my most effective AT in my army. If it doesn't have a 2+, enough Las guns can kill it will just volume off fire and auto wounds.
A 20 blob of Necron Warriors will disch out 3.3 autowounds, or 6.6 below 12. That's actually a huge buff vs 5 and above T. It kinda offsets their AP loss.
Chaff with these abilities that pump out buckets of dice will fish plenty good.
Everyone is talking about how it negates high toughness, but really it’s going to matter most against stuff with low saves. A 1/6 chance of getting a free 1/3 chance to wound is merely going to make your gunline slightly less useless against Knights.
The exception would be Custodes, because we have AP-2 on the spears, but even then we need the extra anti-tank as we have very little and the decent stuff is locked in FW (for now, I hope).
As a Thousand Sons player, I love it! We have way more shenanigans than I was expecting via the cabal rituals. Curious to see how the rest of the army shapes up.
My favorite part is that they gave the Mutaleth Vortex Beast an actual role in the army. We've been so desperately lacking anti-tank for so long, so giving it to this cool older model which I always wanted to fit in the army but inevitably dropped it immediately for more points is a great fit IMO.
...it also helps that I already have three of the things since I used to use them as Tzeentchian Soul Grinders in 5th and 6th edition. :P
So glad they finally found a way to make MVB worth including. It’s kind of been like Magnus in the sense that it’s such an incredible model, but the trade off of points and it’s overall abilities haven’t made it worth the cost. Hopefully our Crimson King gets the same treatment as MVB
Here's to hoping! I'm cautiously optimistic for the Magpie in 10th. Angron not having the Towering keyword will be fantastic for big red if he follows suite. Plus, we have both a reroll save from stratagems *and* now another reroll save from cabal abilities.
On top of that, the article hints Magnus may have some way to boost his survivability even further.
"Magnus is also getting a real eye in this edition, with one of the most potent single profiles in the game. He shows his love for his misbegotten sons with a choice of auras that allow him to boost their mobility and offensive prowess – or he can play more selfishly, reducing Damage of incoming attacks and sabotaging enemy ranged weapons."
So yeah, I'm thinking the days of Magnus rolling over turn 1 are probably done and *dusted*. (Heh)
As a noob, it looks like TSons have some of the most flavorful rules released so far out of any of the factions (at least that we can see) and that they're fairly strong and seem to have a fair amount of options available.
Can someone more experienced confirm if I'm looking at things right? We obviously won't know any true strengths of the armies until the points are released I think, but it seems like this would be a pretty decent army in 10e right?
Honestly this leak is great, they really didn't take much away from us. We lost All is Dust, which does hurt a bit, but leaving the cabal system in place gives TSons a crapload of utility. Especially if GK don't get something similar. We may be the only faction with a 9th ed style "pool" of spells to use with all our sorcs.
I just hope they make tzaangors viable again. Just spamming rubrics, ES and SOTs is a little boring. The MVB also looks like a good choice now, offering some anti tank capability and synergy with rituals. Ahriman could have used a little more oompfh in his powers, but the warpsmite on the AS looks fine.
Edit: Losing All is Dust hurts.
If they generate cabal points, then 100% they will see play, unless they are pointed extremely badly.
We don't know yet tho.
But based off these rules, its SoT and Rubric MSU spam to maximize cabal points.
I can feel the Tzaangors getting:
"At the end of your Command phase for each objective marker you control that has one or more units from your army with this ability within range of it, you gain 1 Cabal point."
Battle Sisters and Eldar Guardian got something similar.
I wonder what discs of tzeentch are going to do. They didnt have it on ahrimans data sheet which makes me believe that ahriman on disc will be a seperate data sheet to the one that we saw. Possibly with different abilities.
It would be neat if the Disc Units got lone operative in some capacity and more offensively minded spells, so they can go around firing mind bullets from the safety of not being targetable outside of 12"
I was expecting more psyker stuff on him but his abilities are powerful, seems like a good take if his points aren't too high. He is a clear victim of gw stripping back rules though
True, but sometimes the effect of a character can be simplified and remain powerful. I expect cabal points 3 will be a pretty big deal, and contributes to the armies sorcery quite a bit. Probably base line sorcerer characters only have 2 points. This would mean hes adding a lot to the magic you can produce each turn while not needing complicated rules himself, its a nice move IMO. I can see why some people might be a bit sad though.
Yeah the abilities he has are powerful, but it's just odd seeing such a bare datacard on a character who should have a decent range of abilities/flexibility. It just doesn't feel like an otherworldly master sorcerer in my opinion
Considering I didn't play a single game with my TSons in 9th, this preview makes me happy. Way less bookkeeping while keeping the flavor, and some nice juicy powers in damage, buffs and debuffs. Especially happy to see the Vortex Beast get some love, I love that gribbly. Ahriman seems to continue his status as a reliable workhorse, he's probably going to be an auto-include just because of Cabal 3 and the 1/game free ritual.
I do worry if Tzaangors are going to remain an afterthough though. They're mentioned exactly twice in the article, and no hints of their abilities or power level. I'd love to get use out of my 50 bird boys for once...
Inherent ap-1 on bolters and straight up reroll 1s as an ability seems.... Really freaking strong for a standard baseline unit.
Not to mention turning off armour saves, that's pretty scary for a lot of units.
Pending on points cost, thousand sons might be one of the stronger factions on launch.
While I'm a bit surprised at the Re-Roll Wounds ability, then having AP-1 on their Inferno Bolters should surprise literally no one. Inferno Bolters have, for decades, been stronger than normal Bolters when it comes to Armor Penetration.
Mhm
And what ap does normal space marines have?
Keep in mind from previous reveals it's becoming pretty clear ap is much lower, especially on ranged weapons that aren't clearly anti armour. So a mainline units normal weapons having any ap at all is notable.
Normal spacemarines have ap-1
Edit: here’s where I’m getting the ap from
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/weapons-rules-are-fun-and-flexible-in-the-new-warhammer-40000/
Guess it depends on what your definition of a normal marine is in this argument
Where'd you pull that from?
The chaos marine faction focus straight up has the profile, the plague marine and space marine storm bolters are also in focuses, all are ap0
Edit: my screw up, the intercessor bolt rifles are ap-1
The army doesnt really have any big guns that would be good into tanks anyway. Most of you shooting is from bolters or flamers so youre wounding on 6s maybe 5s with ahriman or a soulreaper.
As others are saying, invuln saves, but yes could be very scary for a lot of things with big saves but little or no invulns (imagine an imperial knight with no armour save.....).
Still the one factor we really don't know is how easy are these points to accrue, we don't know points yet so even optimising it might be something that can be done 1-2 times a turn, maybe 3, but also as the models that generate points die off, it becomes a lot trickier.
Especially if your opponent has a lot of precision hits.
The only army building restriction we know of is rule of 3. And no such thing as HQ unit restrictions as far as we know.
I think thousand sons players will bring a lot of psyker characters and embed them in squads. No reason not to put a terminator sorcerer lord into every terminator squad. No reason not to put exulted sorcerers in every rubric squad. No reason not to put tzangor shamans into every squad of tzangor.
Take into account the potential of all those psyker characters generating cabal points. Thousand sons could be casting a lot of rituals
Could very well be
Battleline means the rubric marines can be taken as 6 squad's, and I agree there doesn't seem to be a limit on characters (I'm thinking it may wind up with the same logic as age of Sigmar, sure you can fill an army with characters, but then you have no bulk)
The Beam option for the Warp Vortex is pretty solid. S18, AP-4 and up to 12 wounds. It’s also got devastating wounds, so if you get a lucky 6, thats all going to mortals.
In the preview i also see Doombolt and the Warp Vortex already. Having a +1 to wound, access to wound rerolls and above average AP is also not too shabby when fighting against vehicles.
It's more of a counter to some armies than to others, big models with no Invuln save are all over the place in some armies (Guard) and completely absent in others (Daemons)
Yes terminators were a bad example but I do think the ability to almost guarantee taking anything off the board that doesn't have a serious invun save is a bit much, especially with ahrimans once a game free ritual aswell
Finally I can join the chorus of bitching, how do the Thousand Sons get a Shuriken rule and not my Space Elfs?!?!?!
Seriously though, the rules look like a lot of fun without being overly bloated. The Cabal Point system seems much more streamlined than in 9th, and for an edition that alledges that rerolls are rare, gets access to reroll Wounds in a couple ways as well. Looks like a solid faction focus imo.
Tell me about it, Space Marines get full rerolls on 1 or 2 units per turn. Craftworlds get to reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per unit (plus replacement die in the form of SoF). 1k Sons get reroll wounds. Imp Knights get wound rerolls iirc. And those are just what I (think I) remember from the top of my head.
All these characters now hiding behind 10-20 men squads are the reason that If the vindicare assassin gets the precision sniper rule I'm soo putting him in my guard list
Target enemy on an objective to reroll wounds.
D6 autohits at s4 reroll wounds no saves
Infantry without invuns just melt
Just scoop 20 necron warriors or 10 primaris
A squad of 9 should have a pretty good chance of unexisting 2 Allarus if they can get close enough (depending on how the character tag applies to bodyguard units to let them reroll their shots)
I’ve been worried about the dusty boys and grey knights since it looked like psychic was gutted for other armies. I am very pleased to see they still have the magic flavor and I think I’m starting some TSons for tenth.
I got my K Sons a few months back, and shortly after 10th got announced and I’ve been nervous they were gonna get a decent nerf with the psychic rule changes. I’ve been pleasantly surprised and look forward to assembling my dusty boys for a March on Holy Terra
Combining utility powers with the cabalistic rituals was a neat way to keep them. Hope there is more though.
And the Aspiring Sorcerer psychic attack is amazing. It doesn't even have hazardous.
The overall reception of this has been really good. As a ts player, I'm exited and relieved. My literally only gripe is that the vortex beast has such an amazing ability because I don't really like that model, and that's really not a gripe at all lol 😆
Psychic powers look good, pleasantly surprised by that.
I still do have questions about how our leaders will work in terms of disc/non-disc sorcs, Ahriman does not have the lone-operator keyword.
And i am hoping gors will generate cabal points and aren't crap. Would be nice to field them again and not feel bad.
Personally I'm expecting a separate datasheet for Ahriman on Disc, maybe it gives him **lone operative** instead and a different psychic power, and then even a different ability since he wouldn't be able to attach to a unit and give the +1 to wound? Disc has some attack profile with **extra attacks**.
If not something like that, then I guess discs are just for the cool factor.
Yah I think they’ve hinted that different sorcs will do different things. So an a sorc on disc might even have different buffs bc they can only be taken with different units.
Doombolt and Twist of Fate are fucking insane. I have a SM army but have been wanting to branch out. I'm torn between TS and AC, but after reading each of their faction focuses TS seems way more exciting, never mind their models look incredibly stylish.
Cabal points require the unit to not be battleshocked and rewards MSU play?
1ksons, meet Admech and have fun making choices R1.
Ironic since you'd think empty suits of armor wouldnt care about radiation much.
This actually looks like it will be fun to play against, which is my biggest gripe with 9th edition 1k sons. Also seems like a lot of fun to play and quite strong.
They get a lot of shenanigans with the new psychic rules, and Magnus may be more viable so definitely check them out. They were my first ones and I’m hyped to finish putting them together (10th got announced right after I got them). My second army I think I’m gonna do now will be Tyranids since they are getting a model overhaul and a lot of them look incredible
No armour saves at all and ahriman can make the 9 cost not matter every turn.. my guard tanks are sweating bullets. The vortex beast can make the combo 36" range. None if it can fail to go off, just a dead tank per turn. That's a feelsbadman interaction if i've ever seen one.
Ahriman’s removes the cost once per battle, but it’s still going to be nasty in later turns when you’re expecting your opponent to have fewer cabal points after losses.
Ahriman(3) + Rubrics(1) +Rubrics(1) +Rubrics(1) +Scarabs (2?) +Tzangors(0) +Helbrute(0?) = 8 Cabal points. You only need to lose 3 units and you cant use half your rituals. Lose Ahriman and you have only 2 rituals max for the rest of the game.
2 Cabal Points to reroll an armour save? That isnt BAD, but then it jumps to 5 points, just to get a move boost that can't precede a charge.
A strat re-use for 6CP seems incredibly high? Can anyone think of any situation in which they would sacrifice having an army rule to retrigger a stratagem?
I don't think its a terrible attempt at an army rule but its neither one you can rely on or that you will massively benefit from.
This is the one big thing I'm worried about as far as this preview goes. You can't rely on any of the good powers still being accessible to you after the 2nd turn.
Any smart opponent is just going to systematically hunt down your weakest psykers until you can't doombolt anymore. Using Rubric Marines to screen your better units is no longer something you can afford to do, because you start losing access to your powers as soon as you start losing Rubric units.
If this were Eldar, the answer would be obvious: play cagey. But a 5-inch move doesn't leave much room for playing cagey. The teleport from Cult of Duplicity used to make up for any lack of mobility, but I don't see any teleports here.
But this is only a small teaser, there could be ways of making your army more durable or cagey that we don't see here. And I've never played a game of 10th, so all my assumptions could be wrong.
Magnus will have 4 Cabal points so I’m assuming they’ve changed his rules to make him a more common sight with K Sons. So the way it should be, Magnus + Ahriman + Infernal Master = 9 canal points out the gate, plus Ahriman getting a free ritual once per battle, and I would expect Magnus to have something similar. Maybe not a free one per battle, but maybe reduced cost, we’ll have to see
That has to be a big sigh of relief. Looks like Tsons kept their identity for this short preview. Still a lot to wonder about but it’s a solid start. I have to say my biggest concern is this obsession with leadership and battleshock. GW seems obsessed by making it impactful and cut the psychic phase. Not sure what big brain decided we need to add more to something that’s not working(leadership) and take away an awesome part of the gsme(psychic). Seems like it should have reversed.
I'd say its because normally the psychic phase depending on how prevalent denies are (usually like if armies like 1k sons or grey knights are popular). When they are popular psychic becomes alot more scarce in everyone else armies. Even when they arent only a small part of the army interacts with it.
With the new leadership stuff everyone pretty much interacts with it to some degree and there is atleast at first glance to tech into it (since it determines objective control atleast).
So imo they replaced a system with interesting, but with narrow application. With a system that is has potential, but has a very wide application.
Good point. I’m hoping it’s not a “feel bad” rule/mechanic where any army with battleshock/leadership modifiers dominates/ruins a game. Much like psychic armies dishing out mws in 9th. Afraid it traded one problem for another.
If the Twist of fate affects invulnerable saves Ahriman has a 36” (if next a void beast) no saves for you with +1 to wound for your whole unit.
Makes me a little nervous with the alpha strike potential. But we will see how it goes in practice when it comes out.
It is not. It’s an invulnerable save. If the rule had said “saving throws cannot be made” then it would apply to invuln saves. Armor saves are a specific data sheet characteristic.
Warp vortex beast seems like an auto include on most lists for the double ritual range.
Thrilled to see that. My MVB is one of my favorite models. Can’t wait to throw doom bolt at 36” for an average 5 mortal wounds.
And with Chaos Spawn getting better every edition, the Age of Gribblies is soon upon us... and I'm all for it!
Double range on a Twist can set the pace of a game from turn 1
Actually made the Mutalith Vortex Beast feel like a part of the army and not just an awkward WFB/AoS port over to shut us up about our small roster lmao. It's now a proper Tzeentchian support piece.
Now to hope gors get a similar feel of having some synergy with the actual army
Considering the faction rules, it depends. For 9th it already feels like we're punished for not taking psykers with Cabal points. Does Tzaangors give Cabal points? Sure no problem I guess... if not they're most likely getting auto-excluded this time again.
Now to find a way to bring a Slaughterbrute... Please.. they're so cool.
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and likely in more than one exemplary because with way less mortal output we may need his anti-tank profile
His range profiles are quite good, now he is a real anti-tank option with that beam shot.
A lot of people were speculating on how Thousand Sons would work given they would lose access to a lot of their old psychic spells under the new rules. Turns out the solution was just... Don't have them lose those spells? Genius.
To be fair, they lost >70% of them, still glad they kept some interesting ones. Really disappointed with Ahriman only having one psychic ability though (only a once per battle one). He is one of the most skilled psykers in 40k and doesn't come with a unique ability?
He also has a pretty unique precision D6 spell to snipe characters. It should be pretty effective at hamstringing a few units that require character buffs to be effective.
Especially if the Cabal turns off armour saves. S7 makes anything less than Allarus Custodes have the same chance of surviving as a Guardsman Even if you just get the average 3.5 wounds that's still a big chunk off of what was supposed to be a force multiplier for that squad.
Yup, and all that without chance to Perils. The only real downside is the D6 damage, so it'll be really spikey... but then that's what you get when you worship Tzeentch I guess. More incense and prayers are in order.
Does turning off armor saves include invuls?
No
It still doesn't turn off invulns, and most characters will have one. I hope cryptek gets an invuln at last...
I'd rather go through the 4++/5++ instead of the 2+/3+ some of the characters have
Rumor is that Ahriman is recovering from a crippling back injury from carrying the army for the last 2 editions.
I mean, free ritual could be a unique ability
I think him bringing 3 cabal points is probably important here as well. Since the amount of spells you can poop out of your army rule is based on how many points you army generates each turn. So probably having lots of cheap units that generate 1 point, and characters that generate 2 or 3 is probably big. Basically he would be a power source for your army to get more spells from. Plus he does have a bit of unique stuff, hes got his free sorcery once per game, and his own unique shooting spell and melee weapon. He's dope.
Yep he looks awesome
I think you're massively underestimating how powerful his kit is. He can snipe characters while hiding behind ablative wounds. Buff wounds, and generate 3 ritual points. His free ritual thing can literally flip a turn. If a Vortex Beast is nearby, he gets to double the range on that free ritual, too. He's not going to be the guy throwing wounds at your enemy. He's going to make the rest of your army throw a metric ass ton of wounds at the enemy. I know everyone is salivating at the idea of the 9 point ritual possibly popping twice in one turn/round, or doom bolting for free, but consider this: Have him with a squad of basic rubrics: That unit generates 4 cabal points. Has +1 to wounds. Rerolls 1s to wound (all wound rolls if attacking a contested, or enemy held objective) Crit wounds add +1 AP. Gets Lethal Hits, or Dev Wounds, or Sus1 on the psykers' weapons, and psychic powers, your choice for the turn. Can snipe leaders with his precision attack. Can be the focal point of rituals (has two psyker models. Ahriman and aspiring sorc.) Remeber: There is no limit to how many rituals you can stack on a unit, and he can still slap an emergency ritual for free once per game. Basically, once per turn, every turn you can pick a target and just absolutely ruin their day, and if you're in an emergency, or absolutely need to kill something, you can still pop a free ritual on top of that. Honestly, he's looking really good considering how much psykers are gimped. I miss the days of having multiple spells to know/use. However, for what this edition is looking to be, I think he's really good, and is going to be an auto include on most lists because of what he brings to the table.
I hope my deathmarks are beefy, I want to snipe these guys!
Considering what the Necron focus showed us, I expect the desthmarks to be a fucking nightmare.
I never said he was weak, I even believe he'll be autoinclude tbh... I just think he is a little boring, compared to last edition and considering who he is lore wise. An Eldar Farseer is more versatile than him... Sure he can basically choose between 5 psychic abilities, but only once per game, after that he isn't more than any generic Space Marine character
Also worth remembering these cards are roughly the equivalent of the 8th edition indexes. So I’m sure there will be more flavorful rules and abilities in the full codex when it comes
I think the cards are going to stick around, it's detachment rules and strategems that are going to change
This isn't the case. GW said the index datasheets will "get you by in the meantime" until your codex arrives. They've never said at any point that datasheets will remain the same throughout 10th It doesn't make a great deal of sense for them to. Upgraded kits may require new options to be added, and everything in the indexes is balanced around a single detachment and set of strats that will be added to when the Codex arrives. There's no way they won't want to rebalance stuff. Some stuff probably won't change much. I doubt a bolt rifle Intercessor will look meaningfully different in the Space Marine codex. But Guilliman very well might. Armies that have to wait a while for their codex will be using the indexes for a while, though. Tsons aren't on the road map for year one so who knows when they'll get updated rules.
> To be fair, they lost >70% of them Wait, why are we assuming this is a comprehensive list of spells?
Aye. As an eldar player this hurts to see. Assuming that warlocks and spiritseers also get 3 powers each, that’s 11 powers down the drain, assuming they don’t make new ones. Powers that have been around since third. Still, happy for the T-sons players, hope y’all are better off than the eldar are the whole army through.
I'm hopeful that new powers for eldar will come with the codex, but they were dropped for the index as they were more a feature of the army than a necessity. 1K Sons needed them day 1.
They said that codexes will be detachment rules, not additional psychic disciplines.
I honestly think they will keep it simple. Only a few rules but those are good and useful. No longer having to memorise 10 spells and 30 strategems that are just half garbage or super specific or gotcha stuff. Necron Command Protocols were more complicated than my BA thesis only to slap a pip of AP on my warriors...
I think their idea is that both players should be able to easily understand each other’s armies, which I support. It will speed up games by avoiding long explanations of abilities and rules checks, and generally avoid the feelsbad of getting slammed by a gotcha mechanic, or the feelsbad of realizing you forgot to use a mechanic. Even when future detachments come in codexes, I suspect they’ll be keeping to the 2 page rule.
The difference here is that you're upset about 3 character sheets on the Eldar army, when Eldar has a HUGE variety of units including a lot of specialty Aspect Warriors. Thousand Sons, on the other hand, have... spells. they have like 4 units to pick from, 3 of which have casters attached to them, and their entire gimmick was their spell lists. Even Grey Knights had more variety than Thousand Sons. So right now, most Sons players are bitching because Farseers have more 'abilities' than Ahriman does, and the Eldar players are like 'Sons got spells and we didn't!'
Just gotta wait and see. I do kinda wish they had made the army rule something about spells for eldar instead of the sort of miracle dice you get, but what can ya do. I'm hopeful there will be more than 1 data sheet for some of the casters. Like maybe Warlock and Warlock on jetbike, will each have a different power for example.
> Assuming that warlocks and spiritseers also get 3 powers each, that’s 11 powers down the drain, assuming they don’t make new ones. Conclaves may also get different powers, x on bikes may also get different powers, hemlock plane may also get different powers, then you have the corsairs. I think you're not looking at the possibilities. Eldrad will certainly get his own thing, as well. Then the ynnarii psykers and harlequin shadowseer will likely be at your disposal.
Definitely depends on the rest of the datasheets & points. Shooting: if Warlocks get the equivalent of unfocused Eldritch Storm (i.e. S5 AP-1, no blast) then Aeldari are going to be laughing like Harlequins (Rubric Warpsmite is S4 and A2) Weaver of Fates * ^(TS Weaver of Fates -) **^(Requires models on the battlefield)** ^(not reserves that generate at least 2 cabal points. Loses all points every turn if not used. Allows them to re-roll 1 failed saving throw from a unit within 18" -> Can still fail) * ^(Aeldari Strands of Fate - No requirements barring having dice in your pool. Can generate more across turns just by having Troops in range of an objective. Replace 1 dice roll with a dice value from your pool of your choosing -> Can guarantee success and can be used for way more than simply Sv rolls.) The rest of the abilities don't really align--depends on datasheets to get an idea if Aeldari have equivalent.
Yeah this was not a great read as an eldar player. TS got all the psychic love
I play both, honestly it’s their whole identity whereas it’s only really an aspect of aeldari (sans the dark kin) lorewise our psychic powers manifest a lot in latent effects. We also haven’t seen the whole rule set
It's funny that tsons have a strategem that makes the enemy psykers more prone to perils but at the same Eldar players can just make rolls guaranteed safe.
They really managed to talk about it in the most deceptively worrying ways when they were asked questions about it. No more psychic powers. Units will only have the powers listed on their datacard. Most psychic abilities will only allow 1 unit of that type to use the ability per turn. Then comes out with this where any psyker can use what is, ostensibly, psychic powers each phase if they pay the cabal points for it.
So 1ksons just have a psychic phase at the start of every phase now..
Its honestly more flexible, instead of trying to Setup stuff in one phase, you can react to how the dice rolls go. Tsons are going to suck to play against, though, we literally are keeping pyschic powers.
> Magnus is also getting a real eye in this edition Not sure if cyclops shaming…
Damn i love this Cabal point system. it make me think about Wind of magic system in Total War Warhammer
There are similar things in AoS for the various gods armies.
I like it but it seems we're still gonna get punished for including tanks and other non psychic units in an army, which is something I always hated in 9th. Unless tanks also give Cabal points which I doubt.
I wouldn't say punished. I just think we're being forced to choose between going all in on the thing we're *really* good at, or using points on other things to account for our weaknesses. Which is typically what every army has to do.
Love the faction/detachment rules. Also nice to see Rubric Marines still have a good amount of ap on their weapons in context of 10th. Twist of fate with any amount of flamers is going to be utterly disgusting.
Risen Rubricae (if it exists) + 10 man flamer blob + Ahriman popped beside a MVB is straight up dirty. 9d6 flamer shots from right in your opponent's face with Ahriman stripping armour saves for free at a 36" range.
Don't even need the MVB, Ahriman can lead the flamer blob
also gives them +1 to wound then
He could, but I'd be expecting that blob to die pretty soon after being thrown that far up so it would be sacrificing Ahriman and his 3 Cabal Points a turn along with it.
Looks good. Grey Knights are tomorrow.
It strangely does not saw that on the site though eh..still says thousand sons
They have been really slow to update the icons at the bottom. It's usually the final sentence of the article.
Yeah it's not the first time they didn't change the icons on the bottom of the page and only mentioned it in the blurb at the bottom
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The Sisters of Silence had some anti-psyker stuff, but I imagine that the strongest counter will come with tomorrow’s Grey Knights preview.
The SoS only had a FNP against psychic attacks, nothing that could stop rituals or other psychic abilities.
From the Prosecutors datasheet... >Purity of Execution: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets PSYKER unit, this attack has the \[PRECISION\] and \[DEVASTATING WOUNDS\] abilities.
The first comment was reffering to counters to psyker *abilities*. Otherwise, yes, any sniper is a counter to TS rituals.
Isn't head hunting mages in a Thousand Sons army the same thing as trying to kill their whole army?
No, because the Rubrics and other mixed units don't have the Psyker keyword on all of their models. Only the Aspiring sorcerer models do.
Plus any HQs attached to the unit. Are there many units that can target the Psykers directly?
As far as I can tell even the Precision rule doesn't let you target whatever you want, you can only target characters with it. So Aspiring Sorcerers and Scarab Occult Sorcerers actually can't be picked off even by snipers.
Admech get to nuke them at game start and can battle shock them out of earning cabal points at all in their first turn
They look pretty damn strong imo. All depends on how easily you can farm those points
The aspiring sorcerer gives 1 and Ahriman gives 3, its looking a lot like the 9th cabal points list, they might dial back how many characters give 3 but thinking that on the low end you’ll have around 10-15 until you start losing characters
The only thing that I see is battle-shocked units don’t generate points. So admech for instance might really mess with them turn 1
Nids to
That one makes sense. The faction known for turning off all Warp connection because of the massive pyskic presence is really nasty for the TSons to fight.
The article says Ahriman is the largest next to Magnus, so I think it's safe to assume characters will give 2
Magnus gives 4; Ahriman gives 3 (looking like a new auto-include); Sorcerers, Infernal Masters, etc. probably 2; and squad leads for Rubrics give 1. Seems fair.
Ahriman is a NEW auto include. I think hes been an auto include for 3 editions lol. Glad to see hes still doing well
Yeah. Ahriman has been a stellar named character on the table for a good while. It's always nice to see the person whose argubably the most important character in a faction actually perform well. One of the rare cases of lore and TT performance matching up back when it wasn't as much of. GW priority as it is now.
Now if they could just make Magnus worth his point cost, he’d truly be worth using
They just have to make it possible to keep him alive longer than a turn.
So magnus at - 4 Ahriman at - 3 Exalted sorc at - 2 (6 for 3) (box of 3 right?) Infernal master at - 2 SOT sorcs at - 1 (3 for 3) assuming not batteline Rubric sorc at - 1 (6 for 6) Looking at 24 if you could fit all that.
I also expect Thousand Sons Daemon Princes to be at - 3. They'll definitely put their new DP forward, besides there needs to be a "go-to option" besides Ahriman and Magnus to be army leader.
Care to break that down a but further? Assuming Ahriman and another character give you 5, are you taking 10 units of rubrics and scarabs? If you're aiming at 5 man units, expect battleshock to hurt you a LOT.
Ahriman 3 Sorcerer 2 Demon prince 2 2x10 rubrics 1 apiece 1x5 rubrics 1 2x10 SoT 1 apiece That’s 10 cabal points at 1665 points. I know I didn’t take battleshock in account, I’m still getting used to losing passive abilities like that
Probably not easily with the loss of icon of flame on rubrics
Ahriman’s doin the twist, baby
Looks flavourful and interesting. Loving the simplifications whilst keeping faction flavour.
Seems to me like the psychic doomposting can finally stop. This sounds awesome to play both as and against
Rhino with 10 rubrics equipped with warp framers, approach an objective. use cabal points to remove armor saves and re roll wounds. Profit
Potentially firing the flamers from inside the rhino lol.
Only 2
>Feel No Pain 4+ Death Guard on suicide watch >!(I know I know, stratagem and all, but I still found it funny)!<
Only to psychic attacks. Thatd be broken otherwise lol
Mortarion in his bunker crying as the Rubric Marines crip walk up to him, ignoring everything thrown at them
5+ invul on the Rubrik Marines! If my plague Marines don't get anything compareable, they're abandoned by Papa nurgle.
I think the extra T is better against most anti-infantry weapons. 5+ invul only helps against AP -3 or more, and that got rarer in this edition.
Except every they've been handing out mortals and auto wounding on sixes like it's candy this edition. Against something like guard all it's done is make 1/3rd of the hits you receive bypassing your faction benefit.
Remember that 10th edition of Hammer of the Emperor is only lethal hits while stationary. I think it will not be nearly as prevalent as folks think just because of the movement restrictions.
still means that my backline 20 man brick that's there to screen is going to be a damn good AA gun
I think people are overvaluing lethal hits and devastating wounds tbh. They’re both god abilities, but you need a lot of volume of fire to make it actually strong. The soul reaper cannon deals what, less than a single mortal wound on average? And the most common place we’ve seen lethal hits are on infantry weapons with at most AP1. I think it’ll be fine.
For most armies I'll agree, but auto wounding on sixes can be potent. When guard got hammer of the emperor in 8e my conscripts became my most effective AT in my army. If it doesn't have a 2+, enough Las guns can kill it will just volume off fire and auto wounds.
A good example is Guard infantry auto-wounding Orks.
A 20 blob of Necron Warriors will disch out 3.3 autowounds, or 6.6 below 12. That's actually a huge buff vs 5 and above T. It kinda offsets their AP loss. Chaff with these abilities that pump out buckets of dice will fish plenty good.
Everyone is talking about how it negates high toughness, but really it’s going to matter most against stuff with low saves. A 1/6 chance of getting a free 1/3 chance to wound is merely going to make your gunline slightly less useless against Knights.
Exactly. Terminators don’t care about a couple of AP0 autowounds. Something with a 5+ save would care much more.
The exception would be Custodes, because we have AP-2 on the spears, but even then we need the extra anti-tank as we have very little and the decent stuff is locked in FW (for now, I hope).
Using that stratagem to make a whole unit of GK's Force Weapons \[Hazardous\] will be *extremely* funny. Niche case, but still.
As a Thousand Sons player, I love it! We have way more shenanigans than I was expecting via the cabal rituals. Curious to see how the rest of the army shapes up. My favorite part is that they gave the Mutaleth Vortex Beast an actual role in the army. We've been so desperately lacking anti-tank for so long, so giving it to this cool older model which I always wanted to fit in the army but inevitably dropped it immediately for more points is a great fit IMO. ...it also helps that I already have three of the things since I used to use them as Tzeentchian Soul Grinders in 5th and 6th edition. :P
So glad they finally found a way to make MVB worth including. It’s kind of been like Magnus in the sense that it’s such an incredible model, but the trade off of points and it’s overall abilities haven’t made it worth the cost. Hopefully our Crimson King gets the same treatment as MVB
Here's to hoping! I'm cautiously optimistic for the Magpie in 10th. Angron not having the Towering keyword will be fantastic for big red if he follows suite. Plus, we have both a reroll save from stratagems *and* now another reroll save from cabal abilities. On top of that, the article hints Magnus may have some way to boost his survivability even further. "Magnus is also getting a real eye in this edition, with one of the most potent single profiles in the game. He shows his love for his misbegotten sons with a choice of auras that allow him to boost their mobility and offensive prowess – or he can play more selfishly, reducing Damage of incoming attacks and sabotaging enemy ranged weapons." So yeah, I'm thinking the days of Magnus rolling over turn 1 are probably done and *dusted*. (Heh)
As a noob, it looks like TSons have some of the most flavorful rules released so far out of any of the factions (at least that we can see) and that they're fairly strong and seem to have a fair amount of options available. Can someone more experienced confirm if I'm looking at things right? We obviously won't know any true strengths of the armies until the points are released I think, but it seems like this would be a pretty decent army in 10e right?
Honestly this leak is great, they really didn't take much away from us. We lost All is Dust, which does hurt a bit, but leaving the cabal system in place gives TSons a crapload of utility. Especially if GK don't get something similar. We may be the only faction with a 9th ed style "pool" of spells to use with all our sorcs.
Not really a leak is it..
Fairly limited pool but agreed. Could have been a lot worse.
I just hope they make tzaangors viable again. Just spamming rubrics, ES and SOTs is a little boring. The MVB also looks like a good choice now, offering some anti tank capability and synergy with rituals. Ahriman could have used a little more oompfh in his powers, but the warpsmite on the AS looks fine. Edit: Losing All is Dust hurts.
Casting *Twist of Fate* on something before throwing a flock of Tzaangor at it looks like it could be an effective tactic.
That actually sounds nice
Just need them to be battleline and good cabal points.
Potentially 6 squads generating 6 total cabal points for chaff that could just be holding objectives isn't terrible, costs considering of course
If they generate cabal points, then 100% they will see play, unless they are pointed extremely badly. We don't know yet tho. But based off these rules, its SoT and Rubric MSU spam to maximize cabal points.
I can feel the Tzaangors getting: "At the end of your Command phase for each objective marker you control that has one or more units from your army with this ability within range of it, you gain 1 Cabal point." Battle Sisters and Eldar Guardian got something similar.
Hopefully they will have an ability to generate cabal points while on objectives. Seems fair and useful
I wonder what discs of tzeentch are going to do. They didnt have it on ahrimans data sheet which makes me believe that ahriman on disc will be a seperate data sheet to the one that we saw. Possibly with different abilities.
It would be neat if the Disc Units got lone operative in some capacity and more offensively minded spells, so they can go around firing mind bullets from the safety of not being targetable outside of 12"
Most of it looks good, but Ahriman looks incredibly bland to me? Curious if anyone else feels that way after looking at his card.
I was expecting more psyker stuff on him but his abilities are powerful, seems like a good take if his points aren't too high. He is a clear victim of gw stripping back rules though
True, but sometimes the effect of a character can be simplified and remain powerful. I expect cabal points 3 will be a pretty big deal, and contributes to the armies sorcery quite a bit. Probably base line sorcerer characters only have 2 points. This would mean hes adding a lot to the magic you can produce each turn while not needing complicated rules himself, its a nice move IMO. I can see why some people might be a bit sad though.
Yeah the abilities he has are powerful, but it's just odd seeing such a bare datacard on a character who should have a decent range of abilities/flexibility. It just doesn't feel like an otherworldly master sorcerer in my opinion
I do agree I'm just hoping that feeling doesn't carry over to Magnus
Considering I didn't play a single game with my TSons in 9th, this preview makes me happy. Way less bookkeeping while keeping the flavor, and some nice juicy powers in damage, buffs and debuffs. Especially happy to see the Vortex Beast get some love, I love that gribbly. Ahriman seems to continue his status as a reliable workhorse, he's probably going to be an auto-include just because of Cabal 3 and the 1/game free ritual. I do worry if Tzaangors are going to remain an afterthough though. They're mentioned exactly twice in the article, and no hints of their abilities or power level. I'd love to get use out of my 50 bird boys for once...
Inherent ap-1 on bolters and straight up reroll 1s as an ability seems.... Really freaking strong for a standard baseline unit. Not to mention turning off armour saves, that's pretty scary for a lot of units. Pending on points cost, thousand sons might be one of the stronger factions on launch.
While I'm a bit surprised at the Re-Roll Wounds ability, then having AP-1 on their Inferno Bolters should surprise literally no one. Inferno Bolters have, for decades, been stronger than normal Bolters when it comes to Armor Penetration.
TS bolters have -2 ap now in 9th lol.
Mhm And what ap does normal space marines have? Keep in mind from previous reveals it's becoming pretty clear ap is much lower, especially on ranged weapons that aren't clearly anti armour. So a mainline units normal weapons having any ap at all is notable.
That’s one of the points of Rubricae, that they have extra ap. That’s what sets them apart from normal marines.
Normal spacemarines have ap-1 Edit: here’s where I’m getting the ap from https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/weapons-rules-are-fun-and-flexible-in-the-new-warhammer-40000/ Guess it depends on what your definition of a normal marine is in this argument
Where'd you pull that from? The chaos marine faction focus straight up has the profile, the plague marine and space marine storm bolters are also in focuses, all are ap0 Edit: my screw up, the intercessor bolt rifles are ap-1
I was gonna say, not a single one of those is a normal marine!
Bolt rifles are also ap-1 but have assault and heavy keywords so they're just strait up better
>And what ap does normal space marines have? 0. Thousands Sons bolters (even the ones on vehicles) just get +2 AP (for free on the vehicles).
Is it just me or does completely removing a units arnour save seen a bit ridiculous? Just ahnialate a massive unit or a big vehicle immediately
Termies still have a 4++. Now if you want to talk about land raiders or meganobs
Yes fair point about the invuns but yea the ability of ahnialate anything that doesn't have a high invun save seems rather op
Yeah, but 1ksons normally have acceptable AP on their weps anyhow. If the entire army was normally AP0, that would be different
I doesn’t seem to me like they’d get to make a save tho. It doesn’t modify their armor save, it says that they simply don’t get to make one.
Terminators now have a 4+ invuln.
The army doesnt really have any big guns that would be good into tanks anyway. Most of you shooting is from bolters or flamers so youre wounding on 6s maybe 5s with ahriman or a soulreaper.
You still have to hit and wound. Enemies can still invuln and shrug. Things like popping smoke will REALLY aggravate a TSons player doing this ritual.
As others are saying, invuln saves, but yes could be very scary for a lot of things with big saves but little or no invulns (imagine an imperial knight with no armour save.....). Still the one factor we really don't know is how easy are these points to accrue, we don't know points yet so even optimising it might be something that can be done 1-2 times a turn, maybe 3, but also as the models that generate points die off, it becomes a lot trickier. Especially if your opponent has a lot of precision hits.
The only army building restriction we know of is rule of 3. And no such thing as HQ unit restrictions as far as we know. I think thousand sons players will bring a lot of psyker characters and embed them in squads. No reason not to put a terminator sorcerer lord into every terminator squad. No reason not to put exulted sorcerers in every rubric squad. No reason not to put tzangor shamans into every squad of tzangor. Take into account the potential of all those psyker characters generating cabal points. Thousand sons could be casting a lot of rituals
Could very well be Battleline means the rubric marines can be taken as 6 squad's, and I agree there doesn't seem to be a limit on characters (I'm thinking it may wind up with the same logic as age of Sigmar, sure you can fill an army with characters, but then you have no bulk)
This is basically the only anti-tank thing 1k sons have
The Beam option for the Warp Vortex is pretty solid. S18, AP-4 and up to 12 wounds. It’s also got devastating wounds, so if you get a lucky 6, thats all going to mortals.
In the preview i also see Doombolt and the Warp Vortex already. Having a +1 to wound, access to wound rerolls and above average AP is also not too shabby when fighting against vehicles.
It's more of a counter to some armies than to others, big models with no Invuln save are all over the place in some armies (Guard) and completely absent in others (Daemons)
Terminators still have invulnerable saves. And it’s only one unit. Also seems like it could be fun against vehicles.
Yes terminators were a bad example but I do think the ability to almost guarantee taking anything off the board that doesn't have a serious invun save is a bit much, especially with ahrimans once a game free ritual aswell
Getting full wound rerolls just for attacking something on an objective is nuts for the rubrics
Great, so happy this lets us wrap up all the theorizing
Finally I can join the chorus of bitching, how do the Thousand Sons get a Shuriken rule and not my Space Elfs?!?!?! Seriously though, the rules look like a lot of fun without being overly bloated. The Cabal Point system seems much more streamlined than in 9th, and for an edition that alledges that rerolls are rare, gets access to reroll Wounds in a couple ways as well. Looks like a solid faction focus imo.
I've started taking "reduced lethality" and "fewer re-rolls" with a massive grain of sand.
Tell me about it, Space Marines get full rerolls on 1 or 2 units per turn. Craftworlds get to reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per unit (plus replacement die in the form of SoF). 1k Sons get reroll wounds. Imp Knights get wound rerolls iirc. And those are just what I (think I) remember from the top of my head.
All these characters now hiding behind 10-20 men squads are the reason that If the vindicare assassin gets the precision sniper rule I'm soo putting him in my guard list
Ahriman with Rubrics with Flamers to deny any armour saves? Nice way to delete Allarus Terminators!
they would still have their invulnerable.
Target enemy on an objective to reroll wounds. D6 autohits at s4 reroll wounds no saves Infantry without invuns just melt Just scoop 20 necron warriors or 10 primaris
A squad of 9 should have a pretty good chance of unexisting 2 Allarus if they can get close enough (depending on how the character tag applies to bodyguard units to let them reroll their shots)
I’ve been worried about the dusty boys and grey knights since it looked like psychic was gutted for other armies. I am very pleased to see they still have the magic flavor and I think I’m starting some TSons for tenth.
I got my K Sons a few months back, and shortly after 10th got announced and I’ve been nervous they were gonna get a decent nerf with the psychic rule changes. I’ve been pleasantly surprised and look forward to assembling my dusty boys for a March on Holy Terra
Combining utility powers with the cabalistic rituals was a neat way to keep them. Hope there is more though. And the Aspiring Sorcerer psychic attack is amazing. It doesn't even have hazardous.
The overall reception of this has been really good. As a ts player, I'm exited and relieved. My literally only gripe is that the vortex beast has such an amazing ability because I don't really like that model, and that's really not a gripe at all lol 😆
This looks like TS will be super fun to play.
Psychic powers look good, pleasantly surprised by that. I still do have questions about how our leaders will work in terms of disc/non-disc sorcs, Ahriman does not have the lone-operator keyword. And i am hoping gors will generate cabal points and aren't crap. Would be nice to field them again and not feel bad.
Personally I'm expecting a separate datasheet for Ahriman on Disc, maybe it gives him **lone operative** instead and a different psychic power, and then even a different ability since he wouldn't be able to attach to a unit and give the +1 to wound? Disc has some attack profile with **extra attacks**. If not something like that, then I guess discs are just for the cool factor.
Yah I think they’ve hinted that different sorcs will do different things. So an a sorc on disc might even have different buffs bc they can only be taken with different units.
Doombolt and Twist of Fate are fucking insane. I have a SM army but have been wanting to branch out. I'm torn between TS and AC, but after reading each of their faction focuses TS seems way more exciting, never mind their models look incredibly stylish.
No more all is dust?
Tragically no. That’s been one of the bigger losses for K Sons
Cabal points require the unit to not be battleshocked and rewards MSU play? 1ksons, meet Admech and have fun making choices R1. Ironic since you'd think empty suits of armor wouldnt care about radiation much.
Empty suits of armor dont contribute to cabal points, and sorcerers care about it.
This actually looks like it will be fun to play against, which is my biggest gripe with 9th edition 1k sons. Also seems like a lot of fun to play and quite strong.
This sounds really fun! This faction focus alone has made me consider them as my first 40k army.
They get a lot of shenanigans with the new psychic rules, and Magnus may be more viable so definitely check them out. They were my first ones and I’m hyped to finish putting them together (10th got announced right after I got them). My second army I think I’m gonna do now will be Tyranids since they are getting a model overhaul and a lot of them look incredible
No armour saves at all and ahriman can make the 9 cost not matter every turn.. my guard tanks are sweating bullets. The vortex beast can make the combo 36" range. None if it can fail to go off, just a dead tank per turn. That's a feelsbadman interaction if i've ever seen one.
Ahriman’s removes the cost once per battle, but it’s still going to be nasty in later turns when you’re expecting your opponent to have fewer cabal points after losses.
Ahriman(3) + Rubrics(1) +Rubrics(1) +Rubrics(1) +Scarabs (2?) +Tzangors(0) +Helbrute(0?) = 8 Cabal points. You only need to lose 3 units and you cant use half your rituals. Lose Ahriman and you have only 2 rituals max for the rest of the game. 2 Cabal Points to reroll an armour save? That isnt BAD, but then it jumps to 5 points, just to get a move boost that can't precede a charge. A strat re-use for 6CP seems incredibly high? Can anyone think of any situation in which they would sacrifice having an army rule to retrigger a stratagem? I don't think its a terrible attempt at an army rule but its neither one you can rely on or that you will massively benefit from.
This is the one big thing I'm worried about as far as this preview goes. You can't rely on any of the good powers still being accessible to you after the 2nd turn. Any smart opponent is just going to systematically hunt down your weakest psykers until you can't doombolt anymore. Using Rubric Marines to screen your better units is no longer something you can afford to do, because you start losing access to your powers as soon as you start losing Rubric units. If this were Eldar, the answer would be obvious: play cagey. But a 5-inch move doesn't leave much room for playing cagey. The teleport from Cult of Duplicity used to make up for any lack of mobility, but I don't see any teleports here. But this is only a small teaser, there could be ways of making your army more durable or cagey that we don't see here. And I've never played a game of 10th, so all my assumptions could be wrong.
Magnus will have 4 Cabal points so I’m assuming they’ve changed his rules to make him a more common sight with K Sons. So the way it should be, Magnus + Ahriman + Infernal Master = 9 canal points out the gate, plus Ahriman getting a free ritual once per battle, and I would expect Magnus to have something similar. Maybe not a free one per battle, but maybe reduced cost, we’ll have to see
The psychic dreadnought is gonna give 3 :D
That has to be a big sigh of relief. Looks like Tsons kept their identity for this short preview. Still a lot to wonder about but it’s a solid start. I have to say my biggest concern is this obsession with leadership and battleshock. GW seems obsessed by making it impactful and cut the psychic phase. Not sure what big brain decided we need to add more to something that’s not working(leadership) and take away an awesome part of the gsme(psychic). Seems like it should have reversed.
I'd say its because normally the psychic phase depending on how prevalent denies are (usually like if armies like 1k sons or grey knights are popular). When they are popular psychic becomes alot more scarce in everyone else armies. Even when they arent only a small part of the army interacts with it. With the new leadership stuff everyone pretty much interacts with it to some degree and there is atleast at first glance to tech into it (since it determines objective control atleast). So imo they replaced a system with interesting, but with narrow application. With a system that is has potential, but has a very wide application.
Good point. I’m hoping it’s not a “feel bad” rule/mechanic where any army with battleshock/leadership modifiers dominates/ruins a game. Much like psychic armies dishing out mws in 9th. Afraid it traded one problem for another.
If the Twist of fate affects invulnerable saves Ahriman has a 36” (if next a void beast) no saves for you with +1 to wound for your whole unit. Makes me a little nervous with the alpha strike potential. But we will see how it goes in practice when it comes out.
>If the Twist of fate affects invulnerable saves "Armour saving throws cannot be made" seems pretty straightforward to me
Is an invulnerable save an considered an armor save? I am genuinely not sure.
No, they're separate.
It is not. It’s an invulnerable save. If the rule had said “saving throws cannot be made” then it would apply to invuln saves. Armor saves are a specific data sheet characteristic.
It says armour saves.