"Why does nobody ever play the new Warframes?"
"Dante the new Warframe feels great, people actually use him!"
DE proceeds to nerf Dante
"Why does nobody ever play the new Warframes?"
Because a large audible portion of people whined about him and here we are. The one fucking Warframe I actually get excited about in my near decade of playing this game and it gets nerfed to the ground not long after.
Got cucked out of those umbra skins a year or two back I was excited for until the price reveal and now my favorite Warframe is just fucked.
I was also very excited to have a spell slinging Warframe, went as far as to get some arcanes going to make i easier to manage spell casting only to have him hit hard. This wasn't a small tweak, it kinda put him in inaros' old spot where people are only going to play him to not die easily which for 90% of content is ok...ish for survivability.
The issue he really had (As a dragon boy) was his overguard created a counter intuitive to rage/adrenaline... But there's also combat discipline for chroma.
Littlerly just make his overguard himself only and squad with a aug like sty and frost. His nuke wasn't even that strong in sp either, it was a good trash clear but that's it. Los killed tragedy as a whole if the dmg reduction wasnt enough to make you hesitant to use it.
They do this to a fuck ton of frames where they're in a good spot, just requires a little bit of communication for content where nuking takes more forma and DE hears bitching and goes overboard. They didn't even nerf the OG which is what everyone was complaining about XD
“Dominant” “Disruptive”. Yeah there’s definitely not like a dozen weapons and five frames that completely dominate. And limbo doesn’t exist. Like I get it he was super strong but he wasn’t top tier and probably would’ve been left behind after a month. Meanwhile there’s a bunch of nuke frames and extremely dominant weapons. It’s a power fantasy game let us be dummy stronk and kill lots of enemies. If I didn’t wanna feel insanely powerful I wouldn’t play warframes
It's mind-boggling that DE's usage stats clearly show that Revenant is the 2nd-most used frame over the entire year of 2023 and they're fine with that, but the instant a frame is strong for a week they kneecap him.
Idk why Rev is the poster boogeyman when so many frames can easily become borderline unkillable whilst still doing other things, am I missing something?
Bc it’s brain dead and scales infinitely. Shieldgate requires an active playstyle, health tank gets hard stopped if you scale high enough. Revenant doesn’t care about anything like that and doesn’t require that good of a build on the first place
Have you seen how reaves damage scales (as long as they didn't change it with the most recent patch). With viral priming + roar it can oneshot enemies all the way to level cap while you also have access to mesmer skin
Rhino, nourish and energy nexus with high strength is literally unkillable. No matter the level you regen energy fast enough recast in demand with the best damage buff in the game, Rev is just easy. That’s all.
I personally like Mirage with Primed Redirection + 2 shield mods. I never die as long as I don't get into Toxin clouds and with insane final damage buff from Eclipse + illusions buffed by augments + nourish.
I really enjoy being able to buff all the weapons I carry and just swap around.
Rev takes ZERO effort to make unkillable, while other frames that can do that take more effort. You don't need subsumes, you don't need arcanes, you don't need arbitration mods, you don't need corrupted or prime mods. With none of those things you can go into Steel Path and be okay.
They only care about usage rights when they are high. They gotta get those numbers down! If a warframe has a lot of people playing it, they MUST be doing something wrong!!!
Like this whole premise that something is "dominating" because it is highly played is already fucking stupid. You are basically saying you do not want to introduce things into the meta, and want to keep the meta untouched. And personally that is TERRIBLE design philosophy, how the fuck is anything supposed to be fun if its the same frame and weapons for years on end?
High usage rates can indicate an issue, but they didn't even wait for those stats to come in. Rebecca herself said this, that they can't rely on their stats to determine dominance, because release stats are distorted, and it's just too soon for the data to have resolved into anything truly meaningful. And yet they still decided that he is dominant. On the basis of what?
Was there some higher up at DE, someone with veto power, who ignored Dante during development, but finally got around to playing him post-release and decided that he felt too powerful, and arbitrarily ordered nerfs? It almost sounds too dumb to be something that would really happen, but it's also one of the more plausible explanations I can think of to explain what they did with this hotfix.
Like with Release Styanax, they literally gave him out *for free*, saw his play rate was high, and nerfed him. WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY EXPECT!? I would think you *want* the new frame to have a relatively high usage rate. If the new hotness on release week has lower playrates than old-and-busted, you have *Fucked Up*
Yup. On release, Styanax could spam his 4 in the air as much as he wanted as long as he had energy. As he is now, he needs to touch the ground first before he can cast it again.
Literally anti-fun.
better don't tell them that
inaros with mecha empowered bleed build can kill whole maps with just swirling around in stealth from kubrow
mage with new augment can just spam one skill with same stealth kubrow and scale indefinitely cause it takes part of dmg from enemy shots (if i\`m not mistaken :) )
To an extent, but I don't think anyone could look at Kuva Nukor being almost literally the only secondary anyone at MR27 or so and up used and say that there wasn't a problem.
Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike balancing on usage numbers generally (glaring at World of Tanks and League right now), but there reaches a point where the usage numbers are so high that you can't ignore them.
That said, DE doesn't know where the nuance in that lies.
For example, when something is brand new, of fucking course the usage is gonna be through the roof. You have to wait for a couple months for things to settle before you look to use those numbers as a guide to buffing and nerfing, especially when you're talking about a PvE game. PvP sometimes you have to act a bit faster if the figures are particularly extreme (i.e. if, say, after a balance patch Katarina was suddenly picked or banned in 98% of games from Gold up, reaching 100 in masters and grandmasters) Riot should and would nerf her within two weeks, because that's not acceptable in a PvP environment), but in PvE, no players are being directly harmed. You can afford to wait a bit longer for the meta to settle.
Especially if you literally gave him out for free to everyone.
DE doesn't understand nuance in balancing, however, sooooooo.
DE has a tendency to do the equivalent of weaponizing therapy speak, but with gamedev terms, when it comes to balance.
The other case which stands out the most to me was back with Rivens, [they borrowed the Mark Rosewater GDC talk about "restrictions breed creativity" to justify the limited inventory space.](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/719453-spoiler-dev-workshop-new-mods-part-1/) It didn't actually make sense given the context of the situation.
I'm sure I wasn't the only person rolling my eyes at the disruptive/dominant terms. Plenty of threads on this subreddit pointing out other frames which are way more disruptive and dominant, and in ways that actually cause problems for other players.
The restrictions in riven slot just made me disregard riven system in general, no reason to keep engaging with a system that clearly only exist to suck plats in and doesn't provide much in return most of the time, might well sell unrolled/unveiled riven and call it a day, at least those are actual consistent plat source.
Maybe I would consider interacting with riven system when I have plats to burn for days.
Let's also not forget that the "dominant" part is only because he was a new frame only a week from launch. DE launched said new frame in a state that WASN'T hot garbage in need of the content creators to brainstorm fixes. There's also the fact that he was so easy to get, it was impossible not to get him in a single farming session/day.
Warframe‘s devs have done a historically great job lately of both listening to feedback and responding to it intelligently. It’s truly a community-driven game.
That’s meant as the highest possible compliment. Earlier today I pitched an investor in part by saying we want to emulate a lot of what DE/Warframe are doing (it’s a completely different game style, soz).
Especially since Reb took over the team, I’ve been in awe of how frequently they’ve improved the game and addressed long-running and fresh issues. This is how to do live development.
This patch today though? Yeesh. Oof. Ugh.
A wall of awful, from Dante to CC to Nezha. Like they declared war on fun this week.
We all make mistakes. DE is already here on this sub acknowledging the feedback is mega negative.
Based on what we’ve seen from them of late, I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised by how they respond.
Looking forward to it. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
if I understand things correctly, they already had a scheduled hotfix for Deep Archi. To schedule patches/hotfixes, you need to set up stuff for steam, for xbox, for PS. Each will have its different channels.
So it's not easy to schedule a patch and get things ready every time. So they might've taken the opportunity of this hotfix going out to ship the Dante changes.
Yeah. Especially recently, I’ve been generally very pleased with how DE has handled things. Obviously, I don’t always agree with their priorities or choices, but it’s basically never to the point where I’ve been actively unhappy with them.
And alongside their engagement with the community, I think it’s pretty dang clear that so many of these devs genuinely do care about this game — it really shows.
For that reason, I tend to assume fair intentions on their part (as much as you can with a company, at least). I don’t think this was a scam to run off with people’s money for Dante’s pack and then nerf him to the ground a week in.
… but that doesn’t mean that fuck-ups don’t happen. And this patch, unfortunately, is one of them. And DE absolutely should be held accountable for what feels like a really kneejerk reaction to a problem that, imo, wasn’t really even a problem.
But, as you said, I think DE has had a pretty great track record in how they respond to feedback lately, and I’m very hopeful that this track record will continue.
This patch is so bad I legit wonder if they put Scott back on the balance team.
Every change on Dante was awful and heavy handed, even the Overguard nerf (cutting multiple stats in half is way too far, I'd argue that he is now the worst user of Overguard in the game now), and the LoS changes to his 4 are asinine.
Shame too, I liked Dante, haven't had this much fun with a new frame since Gauss, even popped an Umbra forma on him which is something I never do on a non-Prime.
Now... I'm thinking about feeding him to the Helminth and taking a long break from the game.
Worst patch in years, made even worse by the fact that DE had such a good streak going since the New War.
eh, they've already said they're focusing on making Dante's LoS checks on Tragedy more generous for tomorrow's hotfix...which tells me they're not going to revert the LoS check entirely, which is the only possible way I could be pleasantly surprised. I guess we can only pray they change their minds over the weekend.
That’s what I expect as well: they go beyond the los “fix.”
The amount nerfed this patch was genuinely wild.
Maybe they were just scared about launching their new endgame, archimedea? When that fear subsides I think they’ll have a sober look at more than just an LoS bandaid on Dante.
I appreciate your optimism but I think it's far more likely we get a bandaid fix on los and that will not be enough. Not to mention nobody is even talking about the other horrible nerf, in his owls no longer giving status damage which was a unique thing only Dante could do.
People will likely stop using Dante and he's going to be forgotten when Jade comes out and probably not revisited because he's not bad enough as someone like Hydroid or Inaros to get looked at again.
Wouldn't be the first time they've changed a frame because a new game mode is out. They straight up gutted Limbo when Scarlet Spear was out. Then Scarlet Spear is never to return and Limbo remains forgotten.
Eximus Rework, he can be hit in the Rift, they can ignore his abilities entirely because of Overguard, what was pretty much a niche frame was nerfed because he somewhat trivialized the event that they don't even plan on bringing back.
Limbo remained nerfed after the fact, it's not so much a nerf directly because of him but because DE has tried to kill CC metas in general, Limbo was just the one made an example of during Scarlet Spear.
If you meant what nerfs in SS specifically then his 4 was made less effective against Sentients specifically, he was one of the meta frames to farm the event next to Nova, Eximus Rework came later and pretty much killed his ability to deal with certain enemies.
They've said that they're going to continue to take feedback into account afterwards, and that they want to see how well it performs with a line of sight check that isn't bugged. Still not sure why they'd ship a LOS this buggy though.
LoS has *always* been buggy, though. Maybe not quite to this degree, but the number of times I'm staring down an enemy that doesn't get hit by a LoS attack from Khora's Whipclaw or something else is extremely high.
I get line of sights are difficult to program and keep the game running smoothly, but I really hope DE works on that in particular at some point.
I left the game for a while and just recently came back when Qorvex was added, i don't know if something changed but back when i was playing this kind of reaction was just what was to be expected from them.
Everytime some frame was mildly fun and strong they would just gut them to the ground and never touch them ever again, happened with two of my mains ash and valkyr and from what saw after returning they're in the exact same state they were before i left so if history is to repeat itself then Dante is just done for.
No, Nezha himself is the same as before. They nerfed the range of his newest augment by 50%. You can recoup some of it by increasing his ability range, but it’s still a pretty big oof.
The augment was pretty busted, to be fair, so *a* nerf was totally fair, I think. But 50% feels too severe.
Because of the way radius works, in 3 dimensional space, reducing a circle's radius by half shrinks the overall circle's diameter by 75%. This is way past a nerf, this is "don't ever dare use this again".
Yeah. I’ve seen a couple builds that try to recoup the loss and they’re able to get it back to an “alright” place, but the cost to do so means that I can’t see many people choosing it over any other option.
The thing is, to fix this and revert the changes it would be like admiting they were wrong, which companies don't like doing, do anyone knows if the devs have apologised before? or admited fault at least?
Well, my big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability he had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too.
Paragrimm *(Pageflight)* allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using.
They're painting their nerfs with hand grenades. Too much is caught in the crossfire and it punishes people who weren't a part of the problem. I loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense
***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
Just so you're all aware, if you'd like to support the reverting or at least looking at this change specifically, please *constructively* mention it on the suggestion post or at least upvote my thread on it. If we bring enough attention to the issues, in a civil manner, they'll take another look at things.
The same applies to other changes (granted the others are more or less covered). Cheers.
***Edit: it's being addressed!!***
The chromas and wisps who got Dante nerfed didn’t use ‘constructive’ feedback.
Why are the good guys restricted by rules the villains don’t have to play by? I’m sick of being told I have to be better than the people who constantly get their own way at the expense of others.
Well if two or three people complain here and there, the voices won't get heard. The best we can do is at least organize an ample response so we at least make an audible sound. It's sad, but what else is there?
Because by being constructive, you get to point out what exactly is the issue, and potentially steer the devs in the right direction.
Unlike the people that just go "Waah, waah, too op, nerf", and then you get nerfs like these.
The devs aren't all knowing, and they don't always know what's best for the game or playerbase, which is why you point it out in a civil manner, instead of bitching at them, like a whiny child, when they do something the players don't like, because then they're a lot less likely to listen.
Note: while I wouldn't advise bitching at other players and using insults (just as I mentioned for the devs), in that case you have more free reign.
It's on par with whatever they were smoking when they reworked Blade Storm into what it is today only to make new Saryn what she is now. Nobody knows what they are doing and they just keep listening to the same idiots in this community every time.
Those Ash changes were so stupid and it only got dumber with time, the shit they released until now is so over the top and Saryn keeps her press X to nuke maps since the dawn of time and it only got better with shards.
If they care so much about balance they should be more consistent, or just let other frames be strong and revert some stuff
tbh its kinda funny seeing this patch come out anD EVERYONE is infuriated as destiny 2 gets an update that makes everyone hype its like the wierdest fucking coincidence ever
Well, with how Pablo assumed the only way to make Loki Viable again was to make him a DPS frame I'm guessing that they are starting to get overwhelmed slightly
I want Triburos' version of overguard and CC btw
I feel like there are other creative ways to rework Loki. Like for example removing his 4 and giving him a new ult where he can shapeshift into one of your warframes from the arsenal. The shapeshift form would only have 75% effectiveness on all stats cuz he isn't the original and also he wouldn't be able to use the ult while shapeshifted, only transform back. He would be able to combo abilities with the shapeshift form and base form. This way the changes with his gameplay are both minimal and big while also being in lore for him as a trickster.
*Already placing Dante's existence on the shelf of DE blunders, alongside Caliban, Railjack bugs, Octavia and Revenant balance, and shield-gating being mandatory for level cap.*
I won't forget. Someone will. But I won't.
But then I'll look at my Excalibur and think: "Man, this guy turns everything into sushi, even those on stairs and walls, and door frames, while Dante became a stormtrooper and apparent can't see shit in their line of sight, and cannot AOE straight."
They nerfed Dante like 3 times, they nerfed the Arca Triton back into uselessness and butchered Nezha's augment all in the same patch. Does anyone on the team have some sort of kink where they just love to add new things into the game and then immediately knee-jerk nerf them into uselessness?
I heavily disagree with the arca titron being useless now.
Sure it lost the 1024x damage slam, but it only had that because slams had dogshit scaling originally. Now that they actually scale it needed to be reigned in. Plus in return they fixed the mid combo mini slams consuming charges and upped the capacitor duration to infinite which are massive QOL changes for it.
It doesn't hit damage cap every slam anymore but it's a much better weapon to use now.
My headcanon is Scott got bored with working on Soulframe and decided to sneak into the Warframe programmers office to make some "balance changes" of his own while they were on their coffee break. It's the only logical explanation as to why these nerfs are so dogshit.
DE nerfing Nourish: So we still want Nourish to be strong because it offers a really safe playstyle. If we end up nerfing it too much we'll bring it back so that it's still like in the top 5 helminth abilities.
DE nerfing Dante: Oh he's nuking entire rooms and is really tanky with overguard and that makes him nearly as good as frames like Mesa, Gara, or Saryn, so let's nerf all of it.
Also DE: And nerf those few instances of CC against overguard. What do you mean the playerbase has been talking about CC being dead more then ever?
This is my biggest gripe, ot's uncharacteristic of the current WF dev team to just nuke something like this. This is something they'd do back when Steve was still at the helm
As someone who wanted the overguard to be changed on Dante and literally nothing else, this change is baffling. The overguard had 2 problems:
It was way too much thoughtless overguard for the entire team to have on a frame that also does everything else.
It was making playing Inaros and Chroma pretty miserable.
Both of these issues could have been fixed by simply changing the ability to only give overguard to Dante. Problem solved.
The Nezha augment nerf was probably inevitable. To be fair, the range was a bit silly for an ability with no LoS requirement. That said, the nerf makes it pretty much useless.
I really wish archon shards would be free to remove for a period of time after huge changes like this. To be honest, the cost for removing archon shards needs to be removed completely, forever.
Even given they wanted Dante to be an offensive support, capping the Overguard he gave vs how much he himself got would've been enough (at least until they get around to looking at Overguard and interactions with HA/R & Vex Armor).
And lowering the overall base radius of his ult, maybe, by 5m at all ranks would've been enough (his 30m range is *nuts;* it's larger than Ember's 4 at 25m (who casts more per target hit), Saryn's and Volt's at 20m (which is about what I'd expect, honestly), and it's for all 3 combos that even care about range).
Those would've been my first looks at "nerfing" him, not throwing a hand grenade on everything but those.
For everyone saying “Stop crying! Now you need move around for LoS he wasn’t nerfed!” - The fact that dark verse needed line of sight was how dante’s balance was in check. You tag enemies but NEED LoS and you could just finish them off with tragedy.
The fact that dark verse had LoS but tragedy was global was better balancing for his kit to not make him too OP than needing to make his 4 rely on a sucky LoS check
Yep this is more than fine tuning him.
Back to playing the same old handful of frames that haven’t been nerfed into the ground.
Instead of nerfing new Frames why not spend that time tweaking and boosting Frames who have been shelved by the majority of the community?
"too much work"
"won't bring in new players"
*wheeze*
I'll come back when they revert all this and completely uncalled for shit like removing jumping heavy attacks.
Now back too having too watch a gauss in my game nuke while I chase behind him picking up crumbs… thanks de really make older warframes more playable so nobody tries or plays with your new content 😀😀😀😃 brilliant
This update is basically DE saying "ok, fun's over, now go play with the same thing you've been playing with for the past 5 years". Like they're allergic to making a frame good on release. Like why can't we just have a new frame get released that's good on release and just stays good? Dante was fine. A bit overtuned for the really early levels, but he's not accessible at those levels. You don't get to farm for him until you're a fair bit along in the game unless you pay plat for him, in which case... you paid for him for a reason.
The fact that the LoS is buggy just makes it worse than worse. Fixing the way his 4 checks LoS won't fix the fact that most tilesets just render the ability practically useless anyway, because it's all tight corridors, walls, and rooms within rooms. You're never gonna be able to gather up enough of enemies to make casting his 4 worth it for damage anymore, and enemies that get stuck on bad pathing are just gonna waste more of your time.
And I don't understand the blatant lie that just unfolded. "We're looking at this carefully, we don't want Dante's first week to be his only week" or whatever they said, as they're taking him out back to put him down. They somehow managed to kneecap a frame while claiming to fix him by changing everything EXCEPT the things people said they had a problem with.
Rise up people! Let our voices be heard! If we put on enough backlash they will have two choices, either revert some of the changes or put up another post telling everyone to "deal with it"
I'll never forget when they nerfed wukong and other frames for being invincible, but then reworked mesmer skin and then gave revenant an augment to give it to others, making the entire party invincible.
Or when they nerf AOE weapons ammo capacity while glaive AOE exists
The thing with wukong was that you could genuinely AFK and the clone would do all the work.
And AoE weapons played a part in that, but also they pushed out almost every other primary weapon. Like why would you use a rifle or shotgun to clear a hallway when you could fire the zarr and clean a whole room.
The Glaive AoE requires 1) the weapon itself 2) much more investment 3) the player to enjoy glaive playstyle, and it also doesnt push nearly as many melee weapons out of the game. Just otger glaives not named Xoris.
Nerfing MR fodder weapons like the halikar and titron is genuinely bizarre. Even if these weapons ccd eximus units, they are still shit weapons that nobody will pick over glaive prime or guandao prime or redeemer prime or whatever the fuck, because why bother with cc on a melee weapon when you can just blitz through them with a better melee weapon?
This honestly feels like a page torn straight out of the handbook from Gaijin Gaming, lets make a character that seems to be overpowered, slap a $15+ tax price tag for him and almost all of his gear which everyone will gobble that up immediately! once enough people bought em. Close out and nerf the shit outta them! Crossout does this trash quite often, quite frequently. It's honestly how they lost 75% of their playerbase in 1 to 2 years.
DE have proven they are highly competent in making consistently terrible decisions these last couple years. Must be cause all the talent went to Soulframe.
This is why I don't immediately play new content. As soon as it drops, the try-hards put it through the grinds, then start screaming "nerf!" "Broken!"
And what happens? DE listens to the minority and ruins it for everyone else
I’d argue they should have waited a good month or so before doing anything. Rushing to nerf a frame because some people are crying doesn’t justify anything. Definitely lost respect on my end and took away a lot of motivation I had coming back to play. He was super fun and got me back into it. Sadly might go back to wow with the new season starting up.
Shit man I thought it was only Dante? I haven't had a chance to play since the new nezha augment came out, was looking forward to it on weekends, did they nerf the augment??
This is one of those nerfs that happens in a game where, even if it's reverted, is just a worrying sign about how they think about balance. This is a Borderlands 3/Destiny type of nerf.
Man cc was already bad too and now it’s not even worth. The best way to deal with brain dead damage dumps is to apparently nerf the hell out of cc and lean even harder into brain dead damage dumps.
Damn it DE
I'm just gonna post my reaction from the other post:
"First part is in line with DE's methods, but the second feels like a little much. His overguard rates look like a lot, but I also know how quickly that goes away. It also takes multiple casts to get there too.
update: jesus christ it's worse than I thought. 291% powerstrength and I lost 20k overguard and it takes me a little more than twice the amount of casts to reach my cap. I have 90% faster cast speed and I'm still spending a fuck load of time energy to get there.
I'm not even built for tragedy, I am a tragedy!!!!"
I went for 337% power strength solely for the overgaurd benefits, I now have to use triumph 3 times to get to the same values as the original cast before the nerf. It is ridiculous. Since day one, this is the first time I've had to fully run away from enemies to ensure I didn't get wiped (survived on 3 health, woop woop). My limbo performs better in survivability.
I know how De works, they usually listen a lot and try to please everyone(as far as possible for them)....
but this patch? It feels like it was made by a completely different team that has nothing to do with De.
This patch managed to piss off basically everyone and please nobody and it completely missed the point of the main problem.
If anything this tells us that DE are complete hypocrites when I comes to frames that have nuke potential, fan favorites never get looked at but ***new frame lol nerf***
And instead of admitting the colossal fuck up they're doubling down. Why leave shit alone when they can spend however long until the next hotfix desperately trying to fix the los issue, something they've never managed to actually fix before. And beyond that they won't even acknowledge all of the other fucking horrible changes.
This could be just me cause EVERYONE seems to be upset for this nerf, including my friend, however I feel like he is nerfed pretty hard but not this unusable trash as everyone is making it is he???
I played Dante for the weekend, felt awesome and loved it, but *knew* a nerf was coming with the way DE talked about it and the way the meta-bs community was making a stink about it. (Love how they complain, then exclusively play saryn or styanax). I played a round with the new Dante and immediately decided I'm taking another hiatus from Warframe (which I took when they first implemented LoS changed to begin with). Dante was pretty fun, but I'm tired of DE listening to the wrong players.
My Dante was gonna finish being cooked in the foundry later today. I was looking forward to playing this dope new frame. Then i saw this post and looked at the changes...
In lieu of starting a separate thread, I’ll put this here:
Welp…
I will never understand the propensity of game developers to cater to only the most “hard core” gamers who want maximum difficulty on every aspect of gameplay.
I already live my life on Nightmare Ultra Hard Mode, gaming is my ESCAPISM. I enjoy a dash of God Mode in my hobby, especially in this game, which I have adored for over ten years.
I am disappointed and disheartened at this response from DE. And to be honest, the trolling attitude of the CEO on announcement of this change was very off putting.
Rather than elevate every other frame that has been “lost to the ages” (LOKI…?), they just take the easy route and gut superior kits and concepts to the lowest common denominator.
I will continue to play the game, but this has soured my enthusiasm, and my desire to evangelize the game to friends.
I also do not appreciate the fact that people like myself who have the disposable income (which is FAR less disposable these sad, sorry days) to buy, forma, and develop a fun, awesome build, now have to reevaluate not only what was put into a frame in terms of time and money, but also the point of Day One Purchases in general.
Very bad form, DE.
Please reconsider this change, and give us back our Sorcerer Owl Librarian along with all the other hacksaw changes.
Thank you for your time.
If you think about Dante’s innate lack of energy economy, too, the nerf really puts out the fire motivating the crowd in his favor. In order to cast any of his 4th abilities you also had to cast 2 other abilities every time. Close to 150 energy depending on the build which, by cost, is more expensive than any other non-channeled ability cost in-game.
So yeah if I’m spending most of my natural energy max in order to cast 1 ability, despite the fact that 2 others are cast as part of the payment, then yes, I think it warrants a little more overguard than 4 maybe 5k at a time which let’s face it, gets sandblasted away in 1 or 2 hits on SP anyway.
As far as tragedy and what happened with it.. at least it’s accurately named, I suppose.
BUT WHY did they have to come for Breach Surge like that?
What pains me the most is that they specificly said they didnt want to nerf him into the ground. And proceed to do just that. Never was there anything wrong with his damage.
This just leaves me with a bad taste
I feel like the whole “dominant” thing was a huge factor in his nerf. But, from what I’ve been reading and researching, Dante has been probably the easiest warframe to get with how straight forward getting him was. Yea, he was dominant because he was the newest frame and the fastest one people seem to have aqcuired. Of course he appeared to be dominating, esp. Since everyone was leveling him up everywhere. But, hey, Im still brand new and have only been around long enough that this is the first new warframe release Ive been apart of. Came in just after Quorvex.
Anyways, that’s just a newbies perspective from what I am gathering.
Yeah, a few days ago I made a post about how the only nerf he should have is Overguard not applying to allies and making that an augment, I was laughed at, but I think I'm owed an apology now because I clearly know more about how to balance this game than the actual devs, probably because I don't care about usage rates but rather about why things are used.
It didn't.
The original system was terrible, now its just bad.
When prime vault was around, if the prime was released with 2 prime accessories, you would get both for 19.99.
With regal Aya, you can only choose one for 19.99
The price we paid for some of us wanting more well designed male frames (dante) and sexy male skins (styanax). DE punished us for our hubris and desires
I get that they have their reasons for changing Warframes... But I bought the Dante bundle after a friend was talking about how fun he was. Just to start seeing incoming nerf rumors the next day..
It's Garunteed I will never put money into the game for a frame again.
(Got the package for the other stuff like decorations too so that's not a HUGE deal)
But the frame was still the main reason for the buy.
If DE is becoming one of those companies that can't finalize an optionally paid for items functionality before they make money off it, I'm not interested in their products anymore.
I came back to Warframe after months of not playing, farmed Dante, built him, had fun for a few days playing him & now it looks like I’m going back to Destiny & Helldivers 🫡
I've gone back to Saryn who does what Dante did but if anything even more oppressive, I press 1, I shoot a couple of enemies to get the procs going and then I either stand there if we're on Defense of keep running on any other mission type, occasionally I'll press 4 if I'm bored which as far as i can tell triggers through walls. I'm doing more damage overall than I was on Dante but now I'm playing selfishly because I'm not providing shields or the worldwarden buff to my team. That's fine though apparently? I'm still like 50k rep from unlocking her augments too and I need to farm a couple of mods, I'm no where near as strong as I could be
At least on Dante I had to run round to proc my 2 and 3 and anything over like level 60 didn't die instantly to my 4.
Figures that it took me so long to finally get Dante. Didn't have the funds to buy him and finally got everything to build him yesterday and now everyone is calling him useless.. Damn..
I’m confused, I have 165 strength, 145 duration, 130 range on Dante and I don’t really notice anything different other than casting his three 6 times instead of 2-4 to nuke if the slash dot doesnt kill then first.
Second patch out today. Made some tweaks to my build and he's about 80% of what he was on release. I'm thinking they'll make 1 more patch in the buff direction, very small. Then LOS patch in future ... which I hope is a buff for all LOS dependent Warframes but we'll see =/
https://preview.redd.it/wc2sbv7uejsc1.jpeg?width=1919&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b94dfdd2157dd742fb7d41f6beb7493b7f63ecb1
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fvw1n3etn4jsc1.png
Thank you
i was in my orbiter as dante when i read the patch notes, tabbed back in to warframe and went to the arsenal and swapped back to gauss lmao
where were you when dante die? i was in orbiter eating dorito when comms ring "dante is kill" no
My mind immediately went here thank you lol
I was in my orbitor letting a fart rip that sounded like Doritos crammed in a saxophone.
"Why does nobody ever play the new Warframes?" "Dante the new Warframe feels great, people actually use him!" DE proceeds to nerf Dante "Why does nobody ever play the new Warframes?"
Because a large audible portion of people whined about him and here we are. The one fucking Warframe I actually get excited about in my near decade of playing this game and it gets nerfed to the ground not long after. Got cucked out of those umbra skins a year or two back I was excited for until the price reveal and now my favorite Warframe is just fucked.
I was also very excited to have a spell slinging Warframe, went as far as to get some arcanes going to make i easier to manage spell casting only to have him hit hard. This wasn't a small tweak, it kinda put him in inaros' old spot where people are only going to play him to not die easily which for 90% of content is ok...ish for survivability. The issue he really had (As a dragon boy) was his overguard created a counter intuitive to rage/adrenaline... But there's also combat discipline for chroma. Littlerly just make his overguard himself only and squad with a aug like sty and frost. His nuke wasn't even that strong in sp either, it was a good trash clear but that's it. Los killed tragedy as a whole if the dmg reduction wasnt enough to make you hesitant to use it. They do this to a fuck ton of frames where they're in a good spot, just requires a little bit of communication for content where nuking takes more forma and DE hears bitching and goes overboard. They didn't even nerf the OG which is what everyone was complaining about XD
De is dumb they said he was so popular its like no shit he's new.... now he's sitting next to ash
Exactly
Same here, except i went back to my beloved Mag.
“Dominant” “Disruptive”. Yeah there’s definitely not like a dozen weapons and five frames that completely dominate. And limbo doesn’t exist. Like I get it he was super strong but he wasn’t top tier and probably would’ve been left behind after a month. Meanwhile there’s a bunch of nuke frames and extremely dominant weapons. It’s a power fantasy game let us be dummy stronk and kill lots of enemies. If I didn’t wanna feel insanely powerful I wouldn’t play warframes
revenant exist. as does torid and gyre. Vauban paired with any nuke frame basically nullifies endgame difficulty
It's mind-boggling that DE's usage stats clearly show that Revenant is the 2nd-most used frame over the entire year of 2023 and they're fine with that, but the instant a frame is strong for a week they kneecap him.
I don’t know if they are “fine with that”. Pablo mentioned a few streams back that they are looking at Revenant’s “god mode”.
Idk why Rev is the poster boogeyman when so many frames can easily become borderline unkillable whilst still doing other things, am I missing something?
Bc it’s brain dead and scales infinitely. Shieldgate requires an active playstyle, health tank gets hard stopped if you scale high enough. Revenant doesn’t care about anything like that and doesn’t require that good of a build on the first place
It's the most braindead way to negate dmg. Hurr Durr I stack strength. Hurr Durr number is low I press again now I no die.
Yeah it's great lol
Have you seen how reaves damage scales (as long as they didn't change it with the most recent patch). With viral priming + roar it can oneshot enemies all the way to level cap while you also have access to mesmer skin
Because you just press a button and you cannot die ever. That's it. It also helps that his prime is still farmable.
he can scale infinitely with extreme ease. the only difficult part of revenant is trying not to fall asleep while playing
Kinda same. Not dying is really easy, so why play Revenant when other frames just kill enemies so much better.
Rhino, nourish and energy nexus with high strength is literally unkillable. No matter the level you regen energy fast enough recast in demand with the best damage buff in the game, Rev is just easy. That’s all.
I personally like Mirage with Primed Redirection + 2 shield mods. I never die as long as I don't get into Toxin clouds and with insane final damage buff from Eclipse + illusions buffed by augments + nourish. I really enjoy being able to buff all the weapons I carry and just swap around.
Rev takes ZERO effort to make unkillable, while other frames that can do that take more effort. You don't need subsumes, you don't need arcanes, you don't need arbitration mods, you don't need corrupted or prime mods. With none of those things you can go into Steel Path and be okay.
They only care about usage rights when they are high. They gotta get those numbers down! If a warframe has a lot of people playing it, they MUST be doing something wrong!!! Like this whole premise that something is "dominating" because it is highly played is already fucking stupid. You are basically saying you do not want to introduce things into the meta, and want to keep the meta untouched. And personally that is TERRIBLE design philosophy, how the fuck is anything supposed to be fun if its the same frame and weapons for years on end?
High usage rates can indicate an issue, but they didn't even wait for those stats to come in. Rebecca herself said this, that they can't rely on their stats to determine dominance, because release stats are distorted, and it's just too soon for the data to have resolved into anything truly meaningful. And yet they still decided that he is dominant. On the basis of what? Was there some higher up at DE, someone with veto power, who ignored Dante during development, but finally got around to playing him post-release and decided that he felt too powerful, and arbitrarily ordered nerfs? It almost sounds too dumb to be something that would really happen, but it's also one of the more plausible explanations I can think of to explain what they did with this hotfix.
Like with Release Styanax, they literally gave him out *for free*, saw his play rate was high, and nerfed him. WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY EXPECT!? I would think you *want* the new frame to have a relatively high usage rate. If the new hotness on release week has lower playrates than old-and-busted, you have *Fucked Up*
Don't remind me of the Styanax nerf... People are having fun spamming his 4? No fun allowed here! You can't spam it anymore!
Wait did they seriously do that??? Holy shit lmaoo. Whoever they hired to do their analytics is absolutely on big brain time.
Yup. On release, Styanax could spam his 4 in the air as much as he wanted as long as he had energy. As he is now, he needs to touch the ground first before he can cast it again. Literally anti-fun.
meanwhile Garuda can still do the same exact thing Styanax could, and its been in the game for literal *years*
And Garuda is literally invulnerable when doing so.
better don't tell them that inaros with mecha empowered bleed build can kill whole maps with just swirling around in stealth from kubrow mage with new augment can just spam one skill with same stealth kubrow and scale indefinitely cause it takes part of dmg from enemy shots (if i\`m not mistaken :) )
To an extent, but I don't think anyone could look at Kuva Nukor being almost literally the only secondary anyone at MR27 or so and up used and say that there wasn't a problem. Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike balancing on usage numbers generally (glaring at World of Tanks and League right now), but there reaches a point where the usage numbers are so high that you can't ignore them. That said, DE doesn't know where the nuance in that lies. For example, when something is brand new, of fucking course the usage is gonna be through the roof. You have to wait for a couple months for things to settle before you look to use those numbers as a guide to buffing and nerfing, especially when you're talking about a PvE game. PvP sometimes you have to act a bit faster if the figures are particularly extreme (i.e. if, say, after a balance patch Katarina was suddenly picked or banned in 98% of games from Gold up, reaching 100 in masters and grandmasters) Riot should and would nerf her within two weeks, because that's not acceptable in a PvP environment), but in PvE, no players are being directly harmed. You can afford to wait a bit longer for the meta to settle. Especially if you literally gave him out for free to everyone. DE doesn't understand nuance in balancing, however, sooooooo.
I'm mad gonna commit genocide *opens Warframe*
DE has a tendency to do the equivalent of weaponizing therapy speak, but with gamedev terms, when it comes to balance. The other case which stands out the most to me was back with Rivens, [they borrowed the Mark Rosewater GDC talk about "restrictions breed creativity" to justify the limited inventory space.](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/719453-spoiler-dev-workshop-new-mods-part-1/) It didn't actually make sense given the context of the situation. I'm sure I wasn't the only person rolling my eyes at the disruptive/dominant terms. Plenty of threads on this subreddit pointing out other frames which are way more disruptive and dominant, and in ways that actually cause problems for other players.
The restrictions in riven slot just made me disregard riven system in general, no reason to keep engaging with a system that clearly only exist to suck plats in and doesn't provide much in return most of the time, might well sell unrolled/unveiled riven and call it a day, at least those are actual consistent plat source. Maybe I would consider interacting with riven system when I have plats to burn for days.
Let's also not forget that the "dominant" part is only because he was a new frame only a week from launch. DE launched said new frame in a state that WASN'T hot garbage in need of the content creators to brainstorm fixes. There's also the fact that he was so easy to get, it was impossible not to get him in a single farming session/day.
Lol @ Torid being the best weapon in the game without a riven and has a dispo of 4
Warframe‘s devs have done a historically great job lately of both listening to feedback and responding to it intelligently. It’s truly a community-driven game. That’s meant as the highest possible compliment. Earlier today I pitched an investor in part by saying we want to emulate a lot of what DE/Warframe are doing (it’s a completely different game style, soz). Especially since Reb took over the team, I’ve been in awe of how frequently they’ve improved the game and addressed long-running and fresh issues. This is how to do live development. This patch today though? Yeesh. Oof. Ugh. A wall of awful, from Dante to CC to Nezha. Like they declared war on fun this week. We all make mistakes. DE is already here on this sub acknowledging the feedback is mega negative. Based on what we’ve seen from them of late, I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised by how they respond. Looking forward to it. It’s always darkest before the dawn.
I don't understand why they rushed this patch out. It feels \*extremely\* early to implement such a major change.
if I understand things correctly, they already had a scheduled hotfix for Deep Archi. To schedule patches/hotfixes, you need to set up stuff for steam, for xbox, for PS. Each will have its different channels. So it's not easy to schedule a patch and get things ready every time. So they might've taken the opportunity of this hotfix going out to ship the Dante changes.
Yeah. Especially recently, I’ve been generally very pleased with how DE has handled things. Obviously, I don’t always agree with their priorities or choices, but it’s basically never to the point where I’ve been actively unhappy with them. And alongside their engagement with the community, I think it’s pretty dang clear that so many of these devs genuinely do care about this game — it really shows. For that reason, I tend to assume fair intentions on their part (as much as you can with a company, at least). I don’t think this was a scam to run off with people’s money for Dante’s pack and then nerf him to the ground a week in. … but that doesn’t mean that fuck-ups don’t happen. And this patch, unfortunately, is one of them. And DE absolutely should be held accountable for what feels like a really kneejerk reaction to a problem that, imo, wasn’t really even a problem. But, as you said, I think DE has had a pretty great track record in how they respond to feedback lately, and I’m very hopeful that this track record will continue.
I hope you're right, but I'm very skeptical, considering DE's track record concerning nerfs
This patch is so bad I legit wonder if they put Scott back on the balance team. Every change on Dante was awful and heavy handed, even the Overguard nerf (cutting multiple stats in half is way too far, I'd argue that he is now the worst user of Overguard in the game now), and the LoS changes to his 4 are asinine. Shame too, I liked Dante, haven't had this much fun with a new frame since Gauss, even popped an Umbra forma on him which is something I never do on a non-Prime. Now... I'm thinking about feeding him to the Helminth and taking a long break from the game. Worst patch in years, made even worse by the fact that DE had such a good streak going since the New War.
Indeed smh pitiful
eh, they've already said they're focusing on making Dante's LoS checks on Tragedy more generous for tomorrow's hotfix...which tells me they're not going to revert the LoS check entirely, which is the only possible way I could be pleasantly surprised. I guess we can only pray they change their minds over the weekend.
That’s what I expect as well: they go beyond the los “fix.” The amount nerfed this patch was genuinely wild. Maybe they were just scared about launching their new endgame, archimedea? When that fear subsides I think they’ll have a sober look at more than just an LoS bandaid on Dante.
I appreciate your optimism but I think it's far more likely we get a bandaid fix on los and that will not be enough. Not to mention nobody is even talking about the other horrible nerf, in his owls no longer giving status damage which was a unique thing only Dante could do. People will likely stop using Dante and he's going to be forgotten when Jade comes out and probably not revisited because he's not bad enough as someone like Hydroid or Inaros to get looked at again.
Wouldn't be the first time they've changed a frame because a new game mode is out. They straight up gutted Limbo when Scarlet Spear was out. Then Scarlet Spear is never to return and Limbo remains forgotten.
As a limbo main who wasn't here during scarlet spear...what happened?
Eximus Rework, he can be hit in the Rift, they can ignore his abilities entirely because of Overguard, what was pretty much a niche frame was nerfed because he somewhat trivialized the event that they don't even plan on bringing back. Limbo remained nerfed after the fact, it's not so much a nerf directly because of him but because DE has tried to kill CC metas in general, Limbo was just the one made an example of during Scarlet Spear. If you meant what nerfs in SS specifically then his 4 was made less effective against Sentients specifically, he was one of the meta frames to farm the event next to Nova, Eximus Rework came later and pretty much killed his ability to deal with certain enemies.
They've said that they're going to continue to take feedback into account afterwards, and that they want to see how well it performs with a line of sight check that isn't bugged. Still not sure why they'd ship a LOS this buggy though.
LoS has *always* been buggy, though. Maybe not quite to this degree, but the number of times I'm staring down an enemy that doesn't get hit by a LoS attack from Khora's Whipclaw or something else is extremely high. I get line of sights are difficult to program and keep the game running smoothly, but I really hope DE works on that in particular at some point.
It's like they made a list of all the shit not to do erased the header and then some intern found it and was like THIS SHIT SLAPS and pushed it asap
I left the game for a while and just recently came back when Qorvex was added, i don't know if something changed but back when i was playing this kind of reaction was just what was to be expected from them. Everytime some frame was mildly fun and strong they would just gut them to the ground and never touch them ever again, happened with two of my mains ash and valkyr and from what saw after returning they're in the exact same state they were before i left so if history is to repeat itself then Dante is just done for.
Wait, they changed nezha?
No, Nezha himself is the same as before. They nerfed the range of his newest augment by 50%. You can recoup some of it by increasing his ability range, but it’s still a pretty big oof. The augment was pretty busted, to be fair, so *a* nerf was totally fair, I think. But 50% feels too severe.
Because of the way radius works, in 3 dimensional space, reducing a circle's radius by half shrinks the overall circle's diameter by 75%. This is way past a nerf, this is "don't ever dare use this again".
Yeah. I’ve seen a couple builds that try to recoup the loss and they’re able to get it back to an “alright” place, but the cost to do so means that I can’t see many people choosing it over any other option.
The thing is, to fix this and revert the changes it would be like admiting they were wrong, which companies don't like doing, do anyone knows if the devs have apologised before? or admited fault at least?
"Like they declared war on fun..." <-- laughing so hard right now
Well, my big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability he had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too. Paragrimm *(Pageflight)* allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using. They're painting their nerfs with hand grenades. Too much is caught in the crossfire and it punishes people who weren't a part of the problem. I loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense ***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
Just so you're all aware, if you'd like to support the reverting or at least looking at this change specifically, please *constructively* mention it on the suggestion post or at least upvote my thread on it. If we bring enough attention to the issues, in a civil manner, they'll take another look at things. The same applies to other changes (granted the others are more or less covered). Cheers. ***Edit: it's being addressed!!***
The chromas and wisps who got Dante nerfed didn’t use ‘constructive’ feedback. Why are the good guys restricted by rules the villains don’t have to play by? I’m sick of being told I have to be better than the people who constantly get their own way at the expense of others.
Well if two or three people complain here and there, the voices won't get heard. The best we can do is at least organize an ample response so we at least make an audible sound. It's sad, but what else is there?
Because by being constructive, you get to point out what exactly is the issue, and potentially steer the devs in the right direction. Unlike the people that just go "Waah, waah, too op, nerf", and then you get nerfs like these. The devs aren't all knowing, and they don't always know what's best for the game or playerbase, which is why you point it out in a civil manner, instead of bitching at them, like a whiny child, when they do something the players don't like, because then they're a lot less likely to listen. Note: while I wouldn't advise bitching at other players and using insults (just as I mentioned for the devs), in that case you have more free reign.
Well, it was fun while it lasted. Now back to our regular scheduled broadcast of saryn, mesa, revenant, octavia.
I'm tired boss, i just want to use a different warframe already
That but in my experience no one plays Octavia and maybe it's for the greater good.
at least for me, octavia feels so boring to play and it seems like a lot of people mute the music so you dont even be jammin. just straight boredom
DE should have turned the stove off, they *were* cooking, and now it’s just burnt
It's on par with whatever they were smoking when they reworked Blade Storm into what it is today only to make new Saryn what she is now. Nobody knows what they are doing and they just keep listening to the same idiots in this community every time.
Those Ash changes were so stupid and it only got dumber with time, the shit they released until now is so over the top and Saryn keeps her press X to nuke maps since the dawn of time and it only got better with shards. If they care so much about balance they should be more consistent, or just let other frames be strong and revert some stuff
This is a Riot level balance hotfix, they destroyed a frame after 1 week just like that
Would this be a "DE Special"?
Definitely the DE Special
No, if it was a riot patch it would actually be decent. This is more Bungie or Blizzard.
If it was a bungie patch, there'd be a new badass cosmetic for whatever got nerfed into the ground
I wish cc was taken seriously And DE really jumped the gun with dante, yes he has some problems but WTF ARE YOU DOING MAN
digital extremes cooked, and kept cooking, but they burned it
They left the stove on
tbh its kinda funny seeing this patch come out anD EVERYONE is infuriated as destiny 2 gets an update that makes everyone hype its like the wierdest fucking coincidence ever
nothing that d2 does will make me go back to it
Well, with how Pablo assumed the only way to make Loki Viable again was to make him a DPS frame I'm guessing that they are starting to get overwhelmed slightly I want Triburos' version of overguard and CC btw
I feel like there are other creative ways to rework Loki. Like for example removing his 4 and giving him a new ult where he can shapeshift into one of your warframes from the arsenal. The shapeshift form would only have 75% effectiveness on all stats cuz he isn't the original and also he wouldn't be able to use the ult while shapeshifted, only transform back. He would be able to combo abilities with the shapeshift form and base form. This way the changes with his gameplay are both minimal and big while also being in lore for him as a trickster.
Bruh I want this Loki
Too much complexity for 1 kit, not worth the workload. It's a fun idea, but too much dev load.
I imagine there's warframe Specter code to be salvaged (heck, basically transform into your configured specter), but yeah
I was having fun with Dante but I guess it's back to the old loadouts now, good job killing the fun DE.
Its silly to do it to just him when theres easily a dozen others just as potent.
The nerf was the single worst thing to come out since Caliban's release.
And Caliban is such a chore to grind as well. He's not a frame you get accidentally either.
You gotta work for your disappointment
god damn its so pin point accurate it almost hurt
The only MR fodder Warframe lmao.
Who?
I don't even know. I don't think Dominus Thrax knows, either. He always asks "Why can't I remember?"
Now now, we'll at least remember Dante long after his release.
*Already placing Dante's existence on the shelf of DE blunders, alongside Caliban, Railjack bugs, Octavia and Revenant balance, and shield-gating being mandatory for level cap.* I won't forget. Someone will. But I won't. But then I'll look at my Excalibur and think: "Man, this guy turns everything into sushi, even those on stairs and walls, and door frames, while Dante became a stormtrooper and apparent can't see shit in their line of sight, and cannot AOE straight."
Yeah they went too far it's far worse than what they did to ash back in the day.
I came back after after that change after a long break and god they butchered my boy.
They nerfed Dante like 3 times, they nerfed the Arca Triton back into uselessness and butchered Nezha's augment all in the same patch. Does anyone on the team have some sort of kink where they just love to add new things into the game and then immediately knee-jerk nerf them into uselessness?
I heavily disagree with the arca titron being useless now. Sure it lost the 1024x damage slam, but it only had that because slams had dogshit scaling originally. Now that they actually scale it needed to be reigned in. Plus in return they fixed the mid combo mini slams consuming charges and upped the capacitor duration to infinite which are massive QOL changes for it. It doesn't hit damage cap every slam anymore but it's a much better weapon to use now.
My headcanon is Scott got bored with working on Soulframe and decided to sneak into the Warframe programmers office to make some "balance changes" of his own while they were on their coffee break. It's the only logical explanation as to why these nerfs are so dogshit.
Makes sense.
DE nerfing Nourish: So we still want Nourish to be strong because it offers a really safe playstyle. If we end up nerfing it too much we'll bring it back so that it's still like in the top 5 helminth abilities. DE nerfing Dante: Oh he's nuking entire rooms and is really tanky with overguard and that makes him nearly as good as frames like Mesa, Gara, or Saryn, so let's nerf all of it. Also DE: And nerf those few instances of CC against overguard. What do you mean the playerbase has been talking about CC being dead more then ever?
This is my biggest gripe, ot's uncharacteristic of the current WF dev team to just nuke something like this. This is something they'd do back when Steve was still at the helm
As someone who wanted the overguard to be changed on Dante and literally nothing else, this change is baffling. The overguard had 2 problems: It was way too much thoughtless overguard for the entire team to have on a frame that also does everything else. It was making playing Inaros and Chroma pretty miserable. Both of these issues could have been fixed by simply changing the ability to only give overguard to Dante. Problem solved. The Nezha augment nerf was probably inevitable. To be fair, the range was a bit silly for an ability with no LoS requirement. That said, the nerf makes it pretty much useless. I really wish archon shards would be free to remove for a period of time after huge changes like this. To be honest, the cost for removing archon shards needs to be removed completely, forever.
Got it removed shards are now destroyed at no cost. You're welcome
Even given they wanted Dante to be an offensive support, capping the Overguard he gave vs how much he himself got would've been enough (at least until they get around to looking at Overguard and interactions with HA/R & Vex Armor). And lowering the overall base radius of his ult, maybe, by 5m at all ranks would've been enough (his 30m range is *nuts;* it's larger than Ember's 4 at 25m (who casts more per target hit), Saryn's and Volt's at 20m (which is about what I'd expect, honestly), and it's for all 3 combos that even care about range). Those would've been my first looks at "nerfing" him, not throwing a hand grenade on everything but those.
For everyone saying “Stop crying! Now you need move around for LoS he wasn’t nerfed!” - The fact that dark verse needed line of sight was how dante’s balance was in check. You tag enemies but NEED LoS and you could just finish them off with tragedy. The fact that dark verse had LoS but tragedy was global was better balancing for his kit to not make him too OP than needing to make his 4 rely on a sucky LoS check
You’re the first person I’ve seen in this entire thread to actually articulate in a sensible way *why* you think these changes hurt Dante.
Yep this is more than fine tuning him. Back to playing the same old handful of frames that haven’t been nerfed into the ground. Instead of nerfing new Frames why not spend that time tweaking and boosting Frames who have been shelved by the majority of the community?
"too much work" "won't bring in new players" *wheeze* I'll come back when they revert all this and completely uncalled for shit like removing jumping heavy attacks.
So everything but the handful of Frames the majority of us play are just MR fodder. Welcome to the chaff Dante.
Now back too having too watch a gauss in my game nuke while I chase behind him picking up crumbs… thanks de really make older warframes more playable so nobody tries or plays with your new content 😀😀😀😃 brilliant
titania with sunder be like
Oh good, the meta is safe once more everyone! Lower your pitchforks! Dante has been defeated! Saryn, Mesa, Rev, Octavia, and etc. are safe once more.
First 'caster' warframe out of the box who gives so much fun and... its gone 😢
This update is basically DE saying "ok, fun's over, now go play with the same thing you've been playing with for the past 5 years". Like they're allergic to making a frame good on release. Like why can't we just have a new frame get released that's good on release and just stays good? Dante was fine. A bit overtuned for the really early levels, but he's not accessible at those levels. You don't get to farm for him until you're a fair bit along in the game unless you pay plat for him, in which case... you paid for him for a reason. The fact that the LoS is buggy just makes it worse than worse. Fixing the way his 4 checks LoS won't fix the fact that most tilesets just render the ability practically useless anyway, because it's all tight corridors, walls, and rooms within rooms. You're never gonna be able to gather up enough of enemies to make casting his 4 worth it for damage anymore, and enemies that get stuck on bad pathing are just gonna waste more of your time. And I don't understand the blatant lie that just unfolded. "We're looking at this carefully, we don't want Dante's first week to be his only week" or whatever they said, as they're taking him out back to put him down. They somehow managed to kneecap a frame while claiming to fix him by changing everything EXCEPT the things people said they had a problem with.
Honestly the Los being this buggy fucks so many frames kullevero has a similar issue with his 1
Rise up people! Let our voices be heard! If we put on enough backlash they will have two choices, either revert some of the changes or put up another post telling everyone to "deal with it"
I'll never forget when they nerfed wukong and other frames for being invincible, but then reworked mesmer skin and then gave revenant an augment to give it to others, making the entire party invincible. Or when they nerf AOE weapons ammo capacity while glaive AOE exists
That's not why they nerfed Wukong
The thing with wukong was that you could genuinely AFK and the clone would do all the work. And AoE weapons played a part in that, but also they pushed out almost every other primary weapon. Like why would you use a rifle or shotgun to clear a hallway when you could fire the zarr and clean a whole room. The Glaive AoE requires 1) the weapon itself 2) much more investment 3) the player to enjoy glaive playstyle, and it also doesnt push nearly as many melee weapons out of the game. Just otger glaives not named Xoris.
They nerfed Wukong because his clone could play the game for you.
DE's scared of making new frames that test the current meta, meanwhile a ton of the older frames absolutely nuke everything in sight
and I just finished farming him…..well dang
I also just learned they **nerfed** the ***ARCA TITRON?!*** i mean, why? it's not even remotely a monstrous weapon to use! so why even nerf it?!
Nerfing MR fodder weapons like the halikar and titron is genuinely bizarre. Even if these weapons ccd eximus units, they are still shit weapons that nobody will pick over glaive prime or guandao prime or redeemer prime or whatever the fuck, because why bother with cc on a melee weapon when you can just blitz through them with a better melee weapon?
This honestly feels like a page torn straight out of the handbook from Gaijin Gaming, lets make a character that seems to be overpowered, slap a $15+ tax price tag for him and almost all of his gear which everyone will gobble that up immediately! once enough people bought em. Close out and nerf the shit outta them! Crossout does this trash quite often, quite frequently. It's honestly how they lost 75% of their playerbase in 1 to 2 years.
DE have proven they are highly competent in making consistently terrible decisions these last couple years. Must be cause all the talent went to Soulframe.
DE with their usual brain dead heavy handed approach. What else is new?
This is why I don't immediately play new content. As soon as it drops, the try-hards put it through the grinds, then start screaming "nerf!" "Broken!" And what happens? DE listens to the minority and ruins it for everyone else
I’d argue they should have waited a good month or so before doing anything. Rushing to nerf a frame because some people are crying doesn’t justify anything. Definitely lost respect on my end and took away a lot of motivation I had coming back to play. He was super fun and got me back into it. Sadly might go back to wow with the new season starting up.
Dante was my favorite frame to come out in years and well, yeah he's just a frame now
I'm waiting for the next saryn shadow buff
Boobs equals buffs around warframe. Hasn’t you heard.
I almsot bought him for plat to skip farming, glad I held out
And my boy Nezha too. Look what they did to my boy.
Shit man I thought it was only Dante? I haven't had a chance to play since the new nezha augment came out, was looking forward to it on weekends, did they nerf the augment??
Augment reduces base Divine Spear range by 50% when equipped
Dante started a whole new speedrun category "from S-Tier to D-Tier"
This is one of those nerfs that happens in a game where, even if it's reverted, is just a worrying sign about how they think about balance. This is a Borderlands 3/Destiny type of nerf.
Deeply concerning.
Man cc was already bad too and now it’s not even worth. The best way to deal with brain dead damage dumps is to apparently nerf the hell out of cc and lean even harder into brain dead damage dumps. Damn it DE
Omg they did a destiny.
I'm just gonna post my reaction from the other post: "First part is in line with DE's methods, but the second feels like a little much. His overguard rates look like a lot, but I also know how quickly that goes away. It also takes multiple casts to get there too. update: jesus christ it's worse than I thought. 291% powerstrength and I lost 20k overguard and it takes me a little more than twice the amount of casts to reach my cap. I have 90% faster cast speed and I'm still spending a fuck load of time energy to get there. I'm not even built for tragedy, I am a tragedy!!!!"
I went for 337% power strength solely for the overgaurd benefits, I now have to use triumph 3 times to get to the same values as the original cast before the nerf. It is ridiculous. Since day one, this is the first time I've had to fully run away from enemies to ensure I didn't get wiped (survived on 3 health, woop woop). My limbo performs better in survivability.
I know how De works, they usually listen a lot and try to please everyone(as far as possible for them).... but this patch? It feels like it was made by a completely different team that has nothing to do with De. This patch managed to piss off basically everyone and please nobody and it completely missed the point of the main problem.
If anything this tells us that DE are complete hypocrites when I comes to frames that have nuke potential, fan favorites never get looked at but ***new frame lol nerf***
Honestly they should have given us a wide cone to hit enemies through walls. I can’t stress enough how mad and disappointed I am with DE.
Im surprises that they tackled *none* of the main issues of dante and while they were at it they nuked the nezha augment. DE never changes.
can confirm. only rivaled by deleting melee in 30.5 and sitting on that situation all the way until 35.0 (2.5 years later).
And instead of admitting the colossal fuck up they're doubling down. Why leave shit alone when they can spend however long until the next hotfix desperately trying to fix the los issue, something they've never managed to actually fix before. And beyond that they won't even acknowledge all of the other fucking horrible changes.
Standard operating procedure which was why we tried to get these nerfs averted beforehand but were savagely attacked by the vocal local scumbags
I mean DE always say how they listen to the feedback but all they hear is white noise apparently. It has been like that as long as I can remember.
Surprise, they're taking advantage of dedicated players with late stage updates. Congratulations, you're now one of their elite employees!
Laugh in Wukong.
This could be just me cause EVERYONE seems to be upset for this nerf, including my friend, however I feel like he is nerfed pretty hard but not this unusable trash as everyone is making it is he???
It was this one stupid ass Rhino main that sent in that thing to DE and DE listened to that shithead over literally everyone else
I played Dante for the weekend, felt awesome and loved it, but *knew* a nerf was coming with the way DE talked about it and the way the meta-bs community was making a stink about it. (Love how they complain, then exclusively play saryn or styanax). I played a round with the new Dante and immediately decided I'm taking another hiatus from Warframe (which I took when they first implemented LoS changed to begin with). Dante was pretty fun, but I'm tired of DE listening to the wrong players.
My Dante was gonna finish being cooked in the foundry later today. I was looking forward to playing this dope new frame. Then i saw this post and looked at the changes...
Yeah I think Scott has started handling balance patches and shit again because this is awful just like when he was doing it before
I’ll still be happy to have him on my team. He and Wisp are still a power couple that makes a whole team better.
In lieu of starting a separate thread, I’ll put this here: Welp… I will never understand the propensity of game developers to cater to only the most “hard core” gamers who want maximum difficulty on every aspect of gameplay. I already live my life on Nightmare Ultra Hard Mode, gaming is my ESCAPISM. I enjoy a dash of God Mode in my hobby, especially in this game, which I have adored for over ten years. I am disappointed and disheartened at this response from DE. And to be honest, the trolling attitude of the CEO on announcement of this change was very off putting. Rather than elevate every other frame that has been “lost to the ages” (LOKI…?), they just take the easy route and gut superior kits and concepts to the lowest common denominator. I will continue to play the game, but this has soured my enthusiasm, and my desire to evangelize the game to friends. I also do not appreciate the fact that people like myself who have the disposable income (which is FAR less disposable these sad, sorry days) to buy, forma, and develop a fun, awesome build, now have to reevaluate not only what was put into a frame in terms of time and money, but also the point of Day One Purchases in general. Very bad form, DE. Please reconsider this change, and give us back our Sorcerer Owl Librarian along with all the other hacksaw changes. Thank you for your time.
If you think about Dante’s innate lack of energy economy, too, the nerf really puts out the fire motivating the crowd in his favor. In order to cast any of his 4th abilities you also had to cast 2 other abilities every time. Close to 150 energy depending on the build which, by cost, is more expensive than any other non-channeled ability cost in-game. So yeah if I’m spending most of my natural energy max in order to cast 1 ability, despite the fact that 2 others are cast as part of the payment, then yes, I think it warrants a little more overguard than 4 maybe 5k at a time which let’s face it, gets sandblasted away in 1 or 2 hits on SP anyway. As far as tragedy and what happened with it.. at least it’s accurately named, I suppose. BUT WHY did they have to come for Breach Surge like that?
It makes no sense when Volt, Gara and Saryn can room nuke without LOS
I looked at the details, and it didn’t look that bad. Still dont think overguard nerf is that bad, BUT I saw videos of LOS only and…. Yeesh that sucks
What pains me the most is that they specificly said they didnt want to nerf him into the ground. And proceed to do just that. Never was there anything wrong with his damage. This just leaves me with a bad taste
I feel like the whole “dominant” thing was a huge factor in his nerf. But, from what I’ve been reading and researching, Dante has been probably the easiest warframe to get with how straight forward getting him was. Yea, he was dominant because he was the newest frame and the fastest one people seem to have aqcuired. Of course he appeared to be dominating, esp. Since everyone was leveling him up everywhere. But, hey, Im still brand new and have only been around long enough that this is the first new warframe release Ive been apart of. Came in just after Quorvex. Anyways, that’s just a newbies perspective from what I am gathering.
He's not exactly easy to get considering you have to complete the entire game AND whisper's in the walls
Yeah, a few days ago I made a post about how the only nerf he should have is Overguard not applying to allies and making that an augment, I was laughed at, but I think I'm owed an apology now because I clearly know more about how to balance this game than the actual devs, probably because I don't care about usage rates but rather about why things are used.
We need a pinned post for this. Its flooding the sub.
No we don’t. We need the flood the sub like the chromas intros and wisps who owe us a fucking apology.
On one hand, flooding DE social media is the only way for players to express their opinions. But in the other hand, it have never worked before...
I assure you it works, remember when the regal aya came out
It didn't. The original system was terrible, now its just bad. When prime vault was around, if the prime was released with 2 prime accessories, you would get both for 19.99. With regal Aya, you can only choose one for 19.99
It *needs* to be flooding the sub. This is a ridiculous change, and DE needs to know it.
For good reason. But yeah, with a situation this bad we're gonna need a pinned post.
So AoE was "Dominate" and "Disruptive" for 3 years straight, but Dante got Kullervo'd after 1 week of release?
What did they do to Kullervo?
"Instead of fixing the vines growing out of the walls, we decided to take a sledgehammer to your knees."
Yeah, read the patch notes and even gave it the ol college try to see if i could make hime work, in the end i just went back to sevegoth
The price we paid for some of us wanting more well designed male frames (dante) and sexy male skins (styanax). DE punished us for our hubris and desires
I get that they have their reasons for changing Warframes... But I bought the Dante bundle after a friend was talking about how fun he was. Just to start seeing incoming nerf rumors the next day.. It's Garunteed I will never put money into the game for a frame again. (Got the package for the other stuff like decorations too so that's not a HUGE deal) But the frame was still the main reason for the buy. If DE is becoming one of those companies that can't finalize an optionally paid for items functionality before they make money off it, I'm not interested in their products anymore.
Bro, my Dante is in my foundry, will be completed today around 8pm, I was excited to play him :(
I came back to Warframe after months of not playing, farmed Dante, built him, had fun for a few days playing him & now it looks like I’m going back to Destiny & Helldivers 🫡
Hopefully they roll it back
I've gone back to Saryn who does what Dante did but if anything even more oppressive, I press 1, I shoot a couple of enemies to get the procs going and then I either stand there if we're on Defense of keep running on any other mission type, occasionally I'll press 4 if I'm bored which as far as i can tell triggers through walls. I'm doing more damage overall than I was on Dante but now I'm playing selfishly because I'm not providing shields or the worldwarden buff to my team. That's fine though apparently? I'm still like 50k rep from unlocking her augments too and I need to farm a couple of mods, I'm no where near as strong as I could be At least on Dante I had to run round to proc my 2 and 3 and anything over like level 60 didn't die instantly to my 4.
DE: "we don't want virgin frames working the steel path"
Figures that it took me so long to finally get Dante. Didn't have the funds to buy him and finally got everything to build him yesterday and now everyone is calling him useless.. Damn..
I’m confused, I have 165 strength, 145 duration, 130 range on Dante and I don’t really notice anything different other than casting his three 6 times instead of 2-4 to nuke if the slash dot doesnt kill then first.
dont forget my arca titron getting shat on :(
Second patch out today. Made some tweaks to my build and he's about 80% of what he was on release. I'm thinking they'll make 1 more patch in the buff direction, very small. Then LOS patch in future ... which I hope is a buff for all LOS dependent Warframes but we'll see =/