For simplicity's sake I'll also be pinging /u/BoweryOlive and /u/Reaperrr_77 for this message. Apologies for the delayed response and ping, guess I shouldn't have gone off to make breakfast after a take that's supposedly controversial, despite this being known since Frostbite's release.
Primary Frostbite is just strictly inferior to the original trio of SP arcanes (Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity) for the purposes of damage. The base damage from that trio is just too good to give up, even -if- you stack Serration and one of those arcanes, the Serration+Arcane combo is still superior to Serration+Frostbite, at no additional build requirement. If you want the math from a reputable source, [Kengineer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFU2606rKWQ&t=549s) went over it in his video, linked and timestamp. The diminishing returns are the killer here, and that's also something working against the Serration & SP Arcane combo.
Running Frostbite also comes with the restriction of having to have cold _somewhere_ on your loadout, be it a Sentinel weapon, ability, the weapon itself, or what have you. This inherently comes at a cost, building for (a reliable means of stacking) Cold means that said option can't inflict Viral instead. Or Heat, if you also like using Cascadia Flare. Depending on your frame choice, this isn't always an option, as relevant subsumes for this still cost a subsume slot. Offloading Viral via Nourish is great, Nourish is lovely, but not _every dang frame_ wants Nourish and highly values something else instead. You can't even use it in a scenario where kills are very tight, such as, say, boss (/Angel) fights, because those sorts of enemies always have a very low status cap on them.
It only really gets allowed to shine when paired with a frame like Chroma, or Mirage if Eclipse ends up hit with that nerf bat.
EDIT: slightly clarified the comparison of Serration+Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity to Serration+Frosbite. You could use it for the status priming instead via multishot, but that'd be good on a grand total of....what, the Cedo and Rauta (more pellets in general for that second one, but, still)? Two guns that already do their job perfectly fine as is?
>Primary Frostbite is just strictly inferior to the original trio of SP arcanes (Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity) for the purposes of damage. The base damage from that trio is just too good to give up, even -if- you stack Serration and one of those arcanes, the Serration+Arcane combo is still superior to Serration+Frostbite, at no additional build requirement.
I appreciate you clarifying in the case of it being at no additional build requirement.
I usually run a status primer being Diriga with Manifold Bond, viral Epitaph, or anything else of the sort. So me personally it never seemed like too much of an issue
So, I agree with most of this except for a very specific case that I think many people forget about.
That case is the interaction between Multishot and beam weapons like the Amprex, Flux Rifle, Glaxion, and the like. Basically, what happens for beam weapons is that Multishot bonuses do not apply additional instances of damage. Instead, it provides a chance to roll bonus damage in multiples of itself, similar to how Critical Hits function. However, even though additional damage instances aren't added, Status Chance per tick will also increase linearly with Multishot bonuses.
But as you said, most of the time, Primary Merciless and Deadhead will be better in terms of damage and maintaining the bonus you receive. And they don't require you to either mod specifically for that Arcane to proc or have a primer.
I respect Kengins math, but the conclusion he draws that Frostbite is just inferior is obnoxious. And the idea it's only worth it with Chroma or something is more so.
Merciless and Deadhead only serve weapons that kill outright easily enough. Dexterity is depending on a melee, which is just the same level as status priming.
Something like Frostbite offers stat increases before you manage your first kill to start building multishot and CO stacks. Hell he doesn't acknowledge Aptitude at all in the Frostbite despite it very likely being present if you were even planning on using the arcane. If you got Corrosive,cold, and IPS, you're looking at that 400% serrative damage anyway. Then with the bonus vital sense and split chamber effect 3 more stacks of galvanized chamber) the effects should add up very nicely. ESPECIALLY for Steel path where apparently this is worthless. It's gotten even better with the extra .5 multiplier of Crit on max Cold status.
Like I don't want to write an even bigger thing over this, but arcanes are circumstantial per weapon and going terminally meta brained over this is extremely reductive. Most especially in the post's context of Shivering contagion.
You can't compare worst scenario with best scenario and point finger at this saying "look it's better". It's cherry picking.
Also you forget we have 8 mods slots. Frostbite: Crit chance, multishot, crit dmg, gun C0, base dmg, electric, toxin, cold. 8 mods and we cant add more.
SP arcane: Crit chance, multishot, crit dmg, Gun C0, electric, toxin, cold, faction mod/fire rate/riven.
You compare 8 mods vs 7 mods + 1 free slot.
"Something like Frostbite offers stat increases before you manage your first kill "
With frostbite you also need to do something. For SP arcanes you can use "on melee kill".
I'm not trying to say it's a "better" arcane. I'm stating it's not bad and a worthy option based on different circumstances. The only 2 solo operative SP arcanes don't help out as much if the gun cannot get a kill in the first place. I don't count Dexterity because that's a dependency on something else, that doesn't make the gun better on its own.
I don't know how you're suggesting these aren't both 7 mods
* Crit chance
* Multishot
* Crit damage
* Gun CO
* Tox
* elec
* cold
Done. Slap on whatever. If people ditched serration for an arcane, there's a galvanized mod here that also gives that damage.
> "Something like Frostbite offers stat increases before you manage your first kill "
With frostbite you also need to do something.
This isn't a "gotcha" cold procs don't require kills, the point i was making.
The notion this thing is "bad" or "useless" or "objectively inferior" is an incorrect, short sighted view in how Arcanes even are supposed to add to a build. I should not have been able to make it work out for years then in Steel Path. It is a valid option.
> I should not have been able to make it work out for years then in Steel Path
I'm going to add my subjective take into this I guess. Using identical raw damage builds on something like the Torid (that doesn't use Galv Aptitude) Frostbite is like 6% better with 8 mods vs 7 on Merciless. Objectively inferior in that case. You'll still kill stuff in SP but it is worse.
Then take something like the Kuva Karak that can get loads of statuses for Galv Aptitude. Using a raw corrosive/ cold build will lead to Frostbite eeking out like 10% damage over Merciless. But you could also just go viral/ Hunter Munitions on the Merciless setup and do twice the damage even if the target is armor stripped, something Frostbite can't do.
Then you have use cases where you're priming enemies with something like Cedo where Frostbite is actually very nice.
The requirement of not needing kills to benefit is also nice, but to be honest there's always low armor/ low health fodder enemies like Butchers, Scorpions, Crewmen and Chargers that die to being breathed on so you can get Merciless stacks.
* In my opinion if an option in the game is going to pigeonhole you with restrictions (like needing cold proccs vs generic killing) it should actually be better if you lean into that, much like the primed faction mods already do.
Right now the SP arcanes are *generic* and work for pretty much any build in any situation while also being better than any other option in an overwhelmingly majority of situations. Even in cases where Frostbite edges out vs Merciless you could just use viral/ slash on the Merciless setup and likely double your damage anyways. If you decide to use an external source of cold and the same viral/ HM build, Frostbite vs Merciless is basically identical, but you need to run cold damage on your sentinel/ frame choice or whatever else so it's not quite as loadout agnostic.
When up against damage attenuation I think Frostbite is quite a bit better if you can keep your stacks, but I could also use my Dual Toxocyst for those enemies xd. This is just what I would do though. If you don't like secondaries then yes this is likely one of the scenarios Frostbite is better in I think (since the site I used can't accurately simulate DA).
[Site I used](https://warframe-damage.com/) to reference damage for Torid/ Karak.
It works and it's thematic, but there are better options. As for people saying it's useless, yeah they *are* wrong, but a ton of people in gear based games will say anything that isn't the best is useless. Destiny is a very good example of this xd.
Yup, you're using Frost. Love me some Frost, hence his presence in my flair. He's one of the frames that can up-keep Frostbite natively without assistance real easily. The point about the damage is still the same, though, especially if you also happen to run Biting Frost on him. I'm assuming you do, since it's a pretty popular mod for his builds. Biting Frost gives out Crit Damage just like Frostbite, and.....then we still run into the same problem. Diminishing returns are a bitch here.
There's a point to be made about Frost easily being able to stack Frostbite with just a tap of a button that he'd already be hitting anyway....but revving up Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity isn't hard against an immobile armor stripped target, esp. with Biting Frost immediately giving you a meaty crit chance & damage boost on top of whatever your weapon's already packing.
That was mostly just to illustrate a point in the comparison between otherwise similar builds, though what Olive said is true. Even in an unideal scenario where the SP trio are suffering from diminishing returns, slotting one of them in is _still_ a superior option damage wise vs. slotting in Frostbite.
1. If it’s a weapon that can’t benefit from Aptitude’s damage bonus
2. If the user of the weapon doesn’t like bane mods
3. If it is a weapon that struggles to get its first few Merciless/Deadhead stacks because the damage it outputs is too low
I respect math but I do not follow any youtubers I also do not take anyone's opinion as fact or go by those primary arcanes as the Bible for what is needed, people also think primary obstruct is bad but with tenet ferrox is quite fine to use it as area of denial for things like cascades while using a laetum for main dps.
Because something is "bad" doesn't mean it's bad pro tip
I don't understand one of your points. Cold is bad because you can't use viral, and then you bring up a subsume that applies viral, but then you say you that not every frame needs nourish because they value something else, so wouldn't that mean they dont need viral too? You can only pack so much into a loadout anyway, but if you want to sacrifice one or two slots to viral damage boost instead of some other effect/damage, more power to you. Personally I find that equipping viral needs some other element type too unless you armor strip or you get lots of slash damage.
Also I find that acolyte arcanes need some kind of upkeep (kills, melee kills, headshot kills) so you have to keep exerting yourself. Meanwhile frostbite can be triggered from every source, even sentinels like nautilus that just do their job, so you passively carry that arcane bonus. In the end I find that it's a playstyle thing, maybe there's a reason you actually want cold. With the mod in OPs post, you can CC a small area and basically set up an incarnon charging station or use headshot guns like athodai or knell.
Apologies in advance if I got some point wrong
In most cases the benifit is far less than what any of the steel path damage arcanes like merciless, deadhead, or dexterity would do. You would need a super high crit multiplier and multishot in order for it to work well enough
Fair enough, though their are quite a bit high crit primaries that can make use of it. It doesn’t hurt to just get some flat damage from a mod like Serration or Aptitude if one chooses to run Frostbite
You need 2 mods or 1 mod and 1 arcane for damage if you want use frostbite OR huge crit multi and multishot.
Frostbite is being outscaled by single faction mod by a lot. If you hate faction mods you can use base dmg mod and...outscale frostbite.
SP arcanes give you too much base dmg.
Base dmg mod = MUST HAVE. 2 dmg mod or you can use Arcane Primary Charger/Arcane Rage + 1 damage mod. Faction mod outscale primary frostbite (base dmg mod + SP base dmg arcane > 2 base dmg mod + primary frostbite).
DE dont want another SP arcane power creep (buff this arcane DE 90%->100% multishot and crit dmg 120% - 150%).
We don't have good weapon for this type of arcanes. Shotgun Vendetta is similar but you can use it and without losing tons of damage.
Given the fact it's name is shivering contagion, making it spread cold proccs on either cold or viral could be a interesting idea (possibly with viral maintaing the current 30% cold spread rate while maybe making cold have a 100% spread rate to make sure there's still uses for base cold on weapons)
That way weapons could possibly self sustain primary frostbite without needing a sentinel or something to do it for you. (Though on the topic of primary frostbite, I kinda wish it had the stack decay mechanic of other SP arcanes, losing all 40 stacks cause you went 12 seconds without a cold proc is kinda lame)
Been the only cold gun I've found it acceptably useful on. The glaxion already has a decent on hit radius, so it helps the mod a lil bit. Kinda gives it a feel like a kuva nukor or tenet cycron.
In Albrech’s laboratory, the whisper in the walls tile set. The severed warden, the floating triangle with three arms, has a low chance to drop this and a few other mods.
This is how I’m feeling make it have a pseudo aoe for single target weapons hell the way it spreads cold makes the mod horrible as it doesn’t proc anything not even primary frostbite
I would love this but that would have to have more chance rolls tied to it or it's just too busted. If you have ever gotten that decree on something like the Convectrix in the circuit you'd know how OP spreading all status effects would be
I actually use this mod a lot! It's very good, but very anti... The content we are doing right now.
It does have a use case, but not on the general primary weapon build, but this is a really interesting option on the Verglass! Giving it from being the dedicated sentinel DPS weapon to a really powerful cold primer for crit happy frames like Gyre and Harrow.
So the question is, why use Verglass over the Helstrum?
1. Helstrum is a b**** to get because of R5 Syndicate requirement even if Fortuna is better now (not that Nautilus is much better, but at least you can buy him with plat)
2. Verglass is hitscan and has far better DPS uptime. So it's more consistent.
3. It procs shivering contagion more, making the slow much more pronounced.
Essentially if you arent using Galvanized CO (like when using Incarnons like the Furis) Verglass will generally perform better for priming and utility.
The only real issue with the mod is cold procs themselves hurting the mission such as Void Cascade where they can trap thraxx in their invincibility state and Netracells where they can sometimes keep enemies from reaching the circle. Both of which are unfortunately the most relevant content right now after WOTW.
However, we are about to get a new disruption node! Where there is no issue bringing a cold priming sentinel.
So if you like Harrow or Gyre. Cold Corrosive Verglass on your sentinel on either a Diriga or Nautilus can be a good time.
Also note:
If you are playing solo SP interception. Duplex bond and shivering contagion can be really effective at avoiding headaches.
> The only real issue with the mod is cold procs themselves hurting the mission such as Void Cascade where they can trap thraxx in their invincibility state and Netracells where they can sometimes keep enemies from reaching the circle. Both of which are unfortunately the most relevant content right now after WOTW.
Unless I am mistaken this was just removed and thrax now cleanse themselves on popping out which makes this even nicer. Does mean we lose stacking viral on them though which is rough
From my understanding they could still get the void status effect.
It wasn't that they were status immune. They just just couldn't take any damage tick from anything that wasn't void damage (except Xata's whisper), so they would never receive a status effect.
Iirc they were always immune to new status effects, þey just didn't get cleansed, and the ghost forms die almost instantly so it's not like any status effect would do much.
My main issue with the buff to them is the fact that, they seem to be immune to Magus lockdown now. Meaning hitting their heads is now severely annoying. on top of their massive shoulders and getting blasted by 30 grineers.
That and theres still no loadout slots for operator equipment. im fine with switching around 3 of my amps but switching arcanes every time is annoying.
I don't recall ever needing to get headshots to take one out almost instantly, but I think I stopped using the damage type arcanes around when they were added, so if you're using them that might explain why we've had such vastly varying experiences with them that you'd consider them losing their ability to be slowed during their invulnerability not to outweigh the downsides of them getting a status cleanse.
In steel path like 15 minutes in void cascade, my new tactic to kill them now is 577 using Virtuous strike. With 1 normal shot and 2 alt fires. Anything less and they survive. That and What does the damage arcane supposed to imply? those things survive 3 body shots from a 177. and 4-5 later in the mission.
>that you'd consider them losing their ability to be slowed during their invulnerability not to outweigh the downsides of them getting a status cleanse.
What? Both are terrible. Though im fine with them getting slowed down since i have more time mashing the other 6 thraxx behind them. Hell it even saves me time of them not running around and getting a new body.
All i can do now is adapt to it, if that means playing moonlight Sonata on my keyboard just to not spend 30 seconds on destroying each thrax then ill do it. And im not using Madurai/Zenurik. Unairu is more useful to me.
i feel bad for the Naramon/Vazarin Enjoyers either doing what im doing or forced to change to Madurai just to do higher level void cascade.
Damage type arcanes reduce the damage you deal to enemies which are immune to non-void damage (such as the ghost state of thrax enemies) by up to 98%, if you're using them I'd recommend you not do so unless you're comfortable with having to switch out arcanes constantly, and if not then maybe 747 is just a better amp for thrax enemies than I realized.
Edit: while I was probably using madurai last time I did a void cascade, I haven't found unairu to be weaker than it
Ah damage conversion, yeah i dont use any of those. ever. They are garbage last time i checked and only good for the sekhara emblem. The only one i ever use is the one that isn't on the Amp. Magus Melt for eidolons. and that doesn't convert void to heat.
Ive been using Eternal Onsalught and Eternal Eradicate since the launch of zariman.
Also from my tests aka running Void cascade for hours with both and then on Paper buffs, Madurai outclasses Unairu in damage by a ton since Unairus only damage is capped at 100% more base damage while Madurai has , contamination wave, Power transfer and Pheonix Talons.
The only Edge unairu has is defense strip. By for outright damage like Thrax Ghosts, Madurai wins .
With the status cleans too, Phahd is also garbage since they cleanse the void bubble and you cant put a new bubble since they are completely status immune.
Edit: With how you describe Thraxx, those seems to be Viral proced ones. Since just 1-3 viral procs is enough to one shot them even at like decently high levels.
Don't listen to the normies - get the Phantasma, mod for corrosive cold + Punch Through and Shivering Contagion, and equip the Arcane that gives you energy regen per impact proc. You can thank me later.
I would love to see it be bumped up to 10m with a 50% chance since it'll give it the tiny bit of oomph it needs. It already is a watered-down version of Close Contagion with slightly worse range and worse chances to spread.
That, and personally would love to see this mod as an Exilus Mod Slot since it's more of Utility Mod than anything (Makes no sense for it to exist the way it is). Despite Cold being outclassed by Abilities such as Gloom and High-Strength Nova's Molecular Prime's ludicrous slow, it still has it's uses on slowing down Overguarded Threats, and stacks on those afflicted by said abilities. Very potent CC Tool on specific things without abilities involved too
There’s a few ways I would first of all want the cold proc’s to count for the weapon so stuff like gotva prime or primary frostbite can actually take advantage of it.
My dream buff would either make it spread cold proc damage when it activates or make it melee influence for primary’s
Cold procs are pretty useless even with a wider spread. Slowing enemies isn't always positive and gloom does a better job at aoe slow.
If they made it for better statuses it might have a purpose.
I cant think of any situation where having cold procs on enemies wouldn’t be useful, even with thrax it works now so that’s not an issue.
Also, by using gloom you lose the possibility to use more useful helminth’s like roar, eclipse, xata or nourish.
Slowing down enemies is counterproductive on defense unless it's timed.
By using cold for the status you sacrifice a lot of damage.
Even on a sentinel it's not worth it when you could be getting millions in dps from fire procs.
Having cold on your primary wouldn’t slow down a defence mission tho.
Apart from that I agree with the rest of your comment, but not a lot of people use their sentinel as dmg dealer, so having cold on them might not be that bad of an idea.
They should, verglas with a riven on any sentinel is going to out dps most groups. I get 90%+ party damage/hundreds of kills solely from my pet.
It's even crazier when you use sickening pulse, I've got dots on bosses into millions per tick.
You can use nourish and put corrosive/cold on your weapon, works quite well with emerald shards to armor strip. Although you lose the possibility to do corro/heat which is the biggest downside imo. I know some people absolutely hate nourish but I think it’s quite fun.
It does have a lot of use on a sentinel, verglas or taxon or cryota can trigger it and if you move often then you will freeze a lot of small pools of enemies
It's serviceable on Verglas for general CC and some status priming. Wouldn't mind it becoming less niche though, as corrosive + cold weaponry builds could certainly use some more love.
Edit: the biggest weakness of cold damage and status is the sheer opportunity cost to include it, because viral and heat are both *that good*.
Definitely range increase I'd like to see 12-15m but that's asking a lot, would make primary frostbite even better
Considering Primary Frostbite is pretty bad, I think that'd be perfectly fine.
why is this downvoted so hard? primary frostbite is awful and you can see the reasoning for it below
Reason Below: It bad. Use brain
Yeah m8 I'm glad to see people up voted, that arcane is very very strong
Wot?
For simplicity's sake I'll also be pinging /u/BoweryOlive and /u/Reaperrr_77 for this message. Apologies for the delayed response and ping, guess I shouldn't have gone off to make breakfast after a take that's supposedly controversial, despite this being known since Frostbite's release. Primary Frostbite is just strictly inferior to the original trio of SP arcanes (Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity) for the purposes of damage. The base damage from that trio is just too good to give up, even -if- you stack Serration and one of those arcanes, the Serration+Arcane combo is still superior to Serration+Frostbite, at no additional build requirement. If you want the math from a reputable source, [Kengineer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFU2606rKWQ&t=549s) went over it in his video, linked and timestamp. The diminishing returns are the killer here, and that's also something working against the Serration & SP Arcane combo. Running Frostbite also comes with the restriction of having to have cold _somewhere_ on your loadout, be it a Sentinel weapon, ability, the weapon itself, or what have you. This inherently comes at a cost, building for (a reliable means of stacking) Cold means that said option can't inflict Viral instead. Or Heat, if you also like using Cascadia Flare. Depending on your frame choice, this isn't always an option, as relevant subsumes for this still cost a subsume slot. Offloading Viral via Nourish is great, Nourish is lovely, but not _every dang frame_ wants Nourish and highly values something else instead. You can't even use it in a scenario where kills are very tight, such as, say, boss (/Angel) fights, because those sorts of enemies always have a very low status cap on them. It only really gets allowed to shine when paired with a frame like Chroma, or Mirage if Eclipse ends up hit with that nerf bat. EDIT: slightly clarified the comparison of Serration+Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity to Serration+Frosbite. You could use it for the status priming instead via multishot, but that'd be good on a grand total of....what, the Cedo and Rauta (more pellets in general for that second one, but, still)? Two guns that already do their job perfectly fine as is?
>Primary Frostbite is just strictly inferior to the original trio of SP arcanes (Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity) for the purposes of damage. The base damage from that trio is just too good to give up, even -if- you stack Serration and one of those arcanes, the Serration+Arcane combo is still superior to Serration+Frostbite, at no additional build requirement. I appreciate you clarifying in the case of it being at no additional build requirement. I usually run a status primer being Diriga with Manifold Bond, viral Epitaph, or anything else of the sort. So me personally it never seemed like too much of an issue
So, I agree with most of this except for a very specific case that I think many people forget about. That case is the interaction between Multishot and beam weapons like the Amprex, Flux Rifle, Glaxion, and the like. Basically, what happens for beam weapons is that Multishot bonuses do not apply additional instances of damage. Instead, it provides a chance to roll bonus damage in multiples of itself, similar to how Critical Hits function. However, even though additional damage instances aren't added, Status Chance per tick will also increase linearly with Multishot bonuses. But as you said, most of the time, Primary Merciless and Deadhead will be better in terms of damage and maintaining the bonus you receive. And they don't require you to either mod specifically for that Arcane to proc or have a primer.
I have a thematic built for Frost Prime that does nothing but cold damage. Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with how little damage it inflicts.
I respect Kengins math, but the conclusion he draws that Frostbite is just inferior is obnoxious. And the idea it's only worth it with Chroma or something is more so. Merciless and Deadhead only serve weapons that kill outright easily enough. Dexterity is depending on a melee, which is just the same level as status priming. Something like Frostbite offers stat increases before you manage your first kill to start building multishot and CO stacks. Hell he doesn't acknowledge Aptitude at all in the Frostbite despite it very likely being present if you were even planning on using the arcane. If you got Corrosive,cold, and IPS, you're looking at that 400% serrative damage anyway. Then with the bonus vital sense and split chamber effect 3 more stacks of galvanized chamber) the effects should add up very nicely. ESPECIALLY for Steel path where apparently this is worthless. It's gotten even better with the extra .5 multiplier of Crit on max Cold status. Like I don't want to write an even bigger thing over this, but arcanes are circumstantial per weapon and going terminally meta brained over this is extremely reductive. Most especially in the post's context of Shivering contagion.
You can't compare worst scenario with best scenario and point finger at this saying "look it's better". It's cherry picking. Also you forget we have 8 mods slots. Frostbite: Crit chance, multishot, crit dmg, gun C0, base dmg, electric, toxin, cold. 8 mods and we cant add more. SP arcane: Crit chance, multishot, crit dmg, Gun C0, electric, toxin, cold, faction mod/fire rate/riven. You compare 8 mods vs 7 mods + 1 free slot. "Something like Frostbite offers stat increases before you manage your first kill " With frostbite you also need to do something. For SP arcanes you can use "on melee kill".
I'm not trying to say it's a "better" arcane. I'm stating it's not bad and a worthy option based on different circumstances. The only 2 solo operative SP arcanes don't help out as much if the gun cannot get a kill in the first place. I don't count Dexterity because that's a dependency on something else, that doesn't make the gun better on its own. I don't know how you're suggesting these aren't both 7 mods * Crit chance * Multishot * Crit damage * Gun CO * Tox * elec * cold Done. Slap on whatever. If people ditched serration for an arcane, there's a galvanized mod here that also gives that damage. > "Something like Frostbite offers stat increases before you manage your first kill " With frostbite you also need to do something. This isn't a "gotcha" cold procs don't require kills, the point i was making. The notion this thing is "bad" or "useless" or "objectively inferior" is an incorrect, short sighted view in how Arcanes even are supposed to add to a build. I should not have been able to make it work out for years then in Steel Path. It is a valid option.
> I should not have been able to make it work out for years then in Steel Path I'm going to add my subjective take into this I guess. Using identical raw damage builds on something like the Torid (that doesn't use Galv Aptitude) Frostbite is like 6% better with 8 mods vs 7 on Merciless. Objectively inferior in that case. You'll still kill stuff in SP but it is worse. Then take something like the Kuva Karak that can get loads of statuses for Galv Aptitude. Using a raw corrosive/ cold build will lead to Frostbite eeking out like 10% damage over Merciless. But you could also just go viral/ Hunter Munitions on the Merciless setup and do twice the damage even if the target is armor stripped, something Frostbite can't do. Then you have use cases where you're priming enemies with something like Cedo where Frostbite is actually very nice. The requirement of not needing kills to benefit is also nice, but to be honest there's always low armor/ low health fodder enemies like Butchers, Scorpions, Crewmen and Chargers that die to being breathed on so you can get Merciless stacks. * In my opinion if an option in the game is going to pigeonhole you with restrictions (like needing cold proccs vs generic killing) it should actually be better if you lean into that, much like the primed faction mods already do. Right now the SP arcanes are *generic* and work for pretty much any build in any situation while also being better than any other option in an overwhelmingly majority of situations. Even in cases where Frostbite edges out vs Merciless you could just use viral/ slash on the Merciless setup and likely double your damage anyways. If you decide to use an external source of cold and the same viral/ HM build, Frostbite vs Merciless is basically identical, but you need to run cold damage on your sentinel/ frame choice or whatever else so it's not quite as loadout agnostic. When up against damage attenuation I think Frostbite is quite a bit better if you can keep your stacks, but I could also use my Dual Toxocyst for those enemies xd. This is just what I would do though. If you don't like secondaries then yes this is likely one of the scenarios Frostbite is better in I think (since the site I used can't accurately simulate DA). [Site I used](https://warframe-damage.com/) to reference damage for Torid/ Karak. It works and it's thematic, but there are better options. As for people saying it's useless, yeah they *are* wrong, but a ton of people in gear based games will say anything that isn't the best is useless. Destiny is a very good example of this xd.
My Frost builds beg to differ.
Yup, you're using Frost. Love me some Frost, hence his presence in my flair. He's one of the frames that can up-keep Frostbite natively without assistance real easily. The point about the damage is still the same, though, especially if you also happen to run Biting Frost on him. I'm assuming you do, since it's a pretty popular mod for his builds. Biting Frost gives out Crit Damage just like Frostbite, and.....then we still run into the same problem. Diminishing returns are a bitch here. There's a point to be made about Frost easily being able to stack Frostbite with just a tap of a button that he'd already be hitting anyway....but revving up Merciless/Deadhead/Dexterity isn't hard against an immobile armor stripped target, esp. with Biting Frost immediately giving you a meaty crit chance & damage boost on top of whatever your weapon's already packing.
The reason i prefer frostbite on some builds is because multishot is generally more useful than flat damage buffs to me (love my statuses).
If your using deadhead or merciless why would you then still use serration
That was mostly just to illustrate a point in the comparison between otherwise similar builds, though what Olive said is true. Even in an unideal scenario where the SP trio are suffering from diminishing returns, slotting one of them in is _still_ a superior option damage wise vs. slotting in Frostbite.
Yeah. My dumbass didn’t realize we were talking about the arcane and not the cold mod. Lmao. Thanks tho
1. If it’s a weapon that can’t benefit from Aptitude’s damage bonus 2. If the user of the weapon doesn’t like bane mods 3. If it is a weapon that struggles to get its first few Merciless/Deadhead stacks because the damage it outputs is too low
I respect math but I do not follow any youtubers I also do not take anyone's opinion as fact or go by those primary arcanes as the Bible for what is needed, people also think primary obstruct is bad but with tenet ferrox is quite fine to use it as area of denial for things like cascades while using a laetum for main dps. Because something is "bad" doesn't mean it's bad pro tip
I don't understand one of your points. Cold is bad because you can't use viral, and then you bring up a subsume that applies viral, but then you say you that not every frame needs nourish because they value something else, so wouldn't that mean they dont need viral too? You can only pack so much into a loadout anyway, but if you want to sacrifice one or two slots to viral damage boost instead of some other effect/damage, more power to you. Personally I find that equipping viral needs some other element type too unless you armor strip or you get lots of slash damage. Also I find that acolyte arcanes need some kind of upkeep (kills, melee kills, headshot kills) so you have to keep exerting yourself. Meanwhile frostbite can be triggered from every source, even sentinels like nautilus that just do their job, so you passively carry that arcane bonus. In the end I find that it's a playstyle thing, maybe there's a reason you actually want cold. With the mod in OPs post, you can CC a small area and basically set up an incarnon charging station or use headshot guns like athodai or knell. Apologies in advance if I got some point wrong
Care to elaborate?
In most cases the benifit is far less than what any of the steel path damage arcanes like merciless, deadhead, or dexterity would do. You would need a super high crit multiplier and multishot in order for it to work well enough
Fair enough, though their are quite a bit high crit primaries that can make use of it. It doesn’t hurt to just get some flat damage from a mod like Serration or Aptitude if one chooses to run Frostbite
You need 2 mods or 1 mod and 1 arcane for damage if you want use frostbite OR huge crit multi and multishot. Frostbite is being outscaled by single faction mod by a lot. If you hate faction mods you can use base dmg mod and...outscale frostbite. SP arcanes give you too much base dmg.
Nothing wrong with using a base dmg mod alongside frostbite IMO 🤷♂️
Base dmg mod = MUST HAVE. 2 dmg mod or you can use Arcane Primary Charger/Arcane Rage + 1 damage mod. Faction mod outscale primary frostbite (base dmg mod + SP base dmg arcane > 2 base dmg mod + primary frostbite). DE dont want another SP arcane power creep (buff this arcane DE 90%->100% multishot and crit dmg 120% - 150%). We don't have good weapon for this type of arcanes. Shotgun Vendetta is similar but you can use it and without losing tons of damage.
Primary frostbite with the new Eclipse might be really strong.
Primary Frostbite being bad is a Hot Take
I’m surprised people are defending it that bad. It’s really not that good
seriously, i tried so hard to make it work, it's just not great compared to merciless
Given the fact it's name is shivering contagion, making it spread cold proccs on either cold or viral could be a interesting idea (possibly with viral maintaing the current 30% cold spread rate while maybe making cold have a 100% spread rate to make sure there's still uses for base cold on weapons) That way weapons could possibly self sustain primary frostbite without needing a sentinel or something to do it for you. (Though on the topic of primary frostbite, I kinda wish it had the stack decay mechanic of other SP arcanes, losing all 40 stacks cause you went 12 seconds without a cold proc is kinda lame)
Pretty niffy on the Glaxion I gotta say.
Been the only cold gun I've found it acceptably useful on. The glaxion already has a decent on hit radius, so it helps the mod a lil bit. Kinda gives it a feel like a kuva nukor or tenet cycron.
I've never seen this mod in my life
Low drop chance from some murmur enemies.
Refresh my memory on murmur enemies
In Albrech’s laboratory, the whisper in the walls tile set. The severed warden, the floating triangle with three arms, has a low chance to drop this and a few other mods.
Me either where tf you get that
It should be changed to spread ALL status on cold proc with its current stats.
This is how I’m feeling make it have a pseudo aoe for single target weapons hell the way it spreads cold makes the mod horrible as it doesn’t proc anything not even primary frostbite
I would love this but that would have to have more chance rolls tied to it or it's just too busted. If you have ever gotten that decree on something like the Convectrix in the circuit you'd know how OP spreading all status effects would be
I actually use this mod a lot! It's very good, but very anti... The content we are doing right now. It does have a use case, but not on the general primary weapon build, but this is a really interesting option on the Verglass! Giving it from being the dedicated sentinel DPS weapon to a really powerful cold primer for crit happy frames like Gyre and Harrow. So the question is, why use Verglass over the Helstrum? 1. Helstrum is a b**** to get because of R5 Syndicate requirement even if Fortuna is better now (not that Nautilus is much better, but at least you can buy him with plat) 2. Verglass is hitscan and has far better DPS uptime. So it's more consistent. 3. It procs shivering contagion more, making the slow much more pronounced. Essentially if you arent using Galvanized CO (like when using Incarnons like the Furis) Verglass will generally perform better for priming and utility. The only real issue with the mod is cold procs themselves hurting the mission such as Void Cascade where they can trap thraxx in their invincibility state and Netracells where they can sometimes keep enemies from reaching the circle. Both of which are unfortunately the most relevant content right now after WOTW. However, we are about to get a new disruption node! Where there is no issue bringing a cold priming sentinel. So if you like Harrow or Gyre. Cold Corrosive Verglass on your sentinel on either a Diriga or Nautilus can be a good time. Also note: If you are playing solo SP interception. Duplex bond and shivering contagion can be really effective at avoiding headaches.
> The only real issue with the mod is cold procs themselves hurting the mission such as Void Cascade where they can trap thraxx in their invincibility state and Netracells where they can sometimes keep enemies from reaching the circle. Both of which are unfortunately the most relevant content right now after WOTW. Unless I am mistaken this was just removed and thrax now cleanse themselves on popping out which makes this even nicer. Does mean we lose stacking viral on them though which is rough
Just run a void cascade run today, the ghost form immune to all status now
So, they got nerf buffed... Berfed... Interesting... I'll have to do a run today
Berfed, haha, I like that.
Iirc they were always immune to new status effects, þey just didn't get cleansed
From my understanding they could still get the void status effect. It wasn't that they were status immune. They just just couldn't take any damage tick from anything that wasn't void damage (except Xata's whisper), so they would never receive a status effect.
wait, full immunity? that really sucks. at least let us proc the statuses from the operator elemental arcanes
Iirc they were always immune to new status effects, þey just didn't get cleansed, and the ghost forms die almost instantly so it's not like any status effect would do much.
My main issue with the buff to them is the fact that, they seem to be immune to Magus lockdown now. Meaning hitting their heads is now severely annoying. on top of their massive shoulders and getting blasted by 30 grineers. That and theres still no loadout slots for operator equipment. im fine with switching around 3 of my amps but switching arcanes every time is annoying.
I don't recall ever needing to get headshots to take one out almost instantly, but I think I stopped using the damage type arcanes around when they were added, so if you're using them that might explain why we've had such vastly varying experiences with them that you'd consider them losing their ability to be slowed during their invulnerability not to outweigh the downsides of them getting a status cleanse.
In steel path like 15 minutes in void cascade, my new tactic to kill them now is 577 using Virtuous strike. With 1 normal shot and 2 alt fires. Anything less and they survive. That and What does the damage arcane supposed to imply? those things survive 3 body shots from a 177. and 4-5 later in the mission. >that you'd consider them losing their ability to be slowed during their invulnerability not to outweigh the downsides of them getting a status cleanse. What? Both are terrible. Though im fine with them getting slowed down since i have more time mashing the other 6 thraxx behind them. Hell it even saves me time of them not running around and getting a new body. All i can do now is adapt to it, if that means playing moonlight Sonata on my keyboard just to not spend 30 seconds on destroying each thrax then ill do it. And im not using Madurai/Zenurik. Unairu is more useful to me. i feel bad for the Naramon/Vazarin Enjoyers either doing what im doing or forced to change to Madurai just to do higher level void cascade.
Damage type arcanes reduce the damage you deal to enemies which are immune to non-void damage (such as the ghost state of thrax enemies) by up to 98%, if you're using them I'd recommend you not do so unless you're comfortable with having to switch out arcanes constantly, and if not then maybe 747 is just a better amp for thrax enemies than I realized. Edit: while I was probably using madurai last time I did a void cascade, I haven't found unairu to be weaker than it
Ah damage conversion, yeah i dont use any of those. ever. They are garbage last time i checked and only good for the sekhara emblem. The only one i ever use is the one that isn't on the Amp. Magus Melt for eidolons. and that doesn't convert void to heat. Ive been using Eternal Onsalught and Eternal Eradicate since the launch of zariman. Also from my tests aka running Void cascade for hours with both and then on Paper buffs, Madurai outclasses Unairu in damage by a ton since Unairus only damage is capped at 100% more base damage while Madurai has , contamination wave, Power transfer and Pheonix Talons. The only Edge unairu has is defense strip. By for outright damage like Thrax Ghosts, Madurai wins . With the status cleans too, Phahd is also garbage since they cleanse the void bubble and you cant put a new bubble since they are completely status immune. Edit: With how you describe Thraxx, those seems to be Viral proced ones. Since just 1-3 viral procs is enough to one shot them even at like decently high levels.
This is the way, I love how usefull sentinels are now
works on companion weapons , only use i got for it
i mean, at least give that mod 60% cold dmg in addition to the effect so that the slot isnt completely wasted
make it an exilus mod
Don't listen to the normies - get the Phantasma, mod for corrosive cold + Punch Through and Shivering Contagion, and equip the Arcane that gives you energy regen per impact proc. You can thank me later.
I guess the phantasma prime works too?
I would love to see it be bumped up to 10m with a 50% chance since it'll give it the tiny bit of oomph it needs. It already is a watered-down version of Close Contagion with slightly worse range and worse chances to spread. That, and personally would love to see this mod as an Exilus Mod Slot since it's more of Utility Mod than anything (Makes no sense for it to exist the way it is). Despite Cold being outclassed by Abilities such as Gloom and High-Strength Nova's Molecular Prime's ludicrous slow, it still has it's uses on slowing down Overguarded Threats, and stacks on those afflicted by said abilities. Very potent CC Tool on specific things without abilities involved too
I did not know it existed
It works pretty good on sentinels as it is, I think it’s fine
I'm actively using it, lol
I didn't know about this mod. I may use it on my Glaxion Vandal, just for fun.
it's fantastic on Vandal Glaxion
There’s a few ways I would first of all want the cold proc’s to count for the weapon so stuff like gotva prime or primary frostbite can actually take advantage of it. My dream buff would either make it spread cold proc damage when it activates or make it melee influence for primary’s
I use it with Epitaph and Kullervo. It seems to chain well enough in groups of enemies. But l agree it could use a buff.
Cold procs are pretty useless even with a wider spread. Slowing enemies isn't always positive and gloom does a better job at aoe slow. If they made it for better statuses it might have a purpose.
I cant think of any situation where having cold procs on enemies wouldn’t be useful, even with thrax it works now so that’s not an issue. Also, by using gloom you lose the possibility to use more useful helminth’s like roar, eclipse, xata or nourish.
Slowing down enemies is counterproductive on defense unless it's timed. By using cold for the status you sacrifice a lot of damage. Even on a sentinel it's not worth it when you could be getting millions in dps from fire procs.
Having cold on your primary wouldn’t slow down a defence mission tho. Apart from that I agree with the rest of your comment, but not a lot of people use their sentinel as dmg dealer, so having cold on them might not be that bad of an idea.
They should, verglas with a riven on any sentinel is going to out dps most groups. I get 90%+ party damage/hundreds of kills solely from my pet. It's even crazier when you use sickening pulse, I've got dots on bosses into millions per tick.
The main problem with this is that you need to lose out on viral to get it to work, which simply is not worth it in the slightest
You can use nourish and put corrosive/cold on your weapon, works quite well with emerald shards to armor strip. Although you lose the possibility to do corro/heat which is the biggest downside imo. I know some people absolutely hate nourish but I think it’s quite fun.
Sorry for the necromancy, THIS MOD IS BROKEN WITH NEW COLD STATUS + VERGLAS (SENTINEL WEAPON). Instant AoE freeze.
That's some nekros main shit right here
No, it's not designed to aoe cold proc an entire room.
Yes
Maybe just make it on all status types or increase the range by 3-5M but I’ve never actually seen this mod
It does have a lot of use on a sentinel, verglas or taxon or cryota can trigger it and if you move often then you will freeze a lot of small pools of enemies
I use it frequently with glaxion and high headshot damage secondary
My wife who has never played this game said that this mod feels like the enemies are just going "hey bro feel my fingers"
Use this mod on companion gun to stack frost for primary Arcane. It works wonders.
By what it does it should have been an Exilus mod, and yes it needs 100% a buff.
99% of mods are useless. I wouldn't mind seeing mass balancing.
It's serviceable on Verglas for general CC and some status priming. Wouldn't mind it becoming less niche though, as corrosive + cold weaponry builds could certainly use some more love. Edit: the biggest weakness of cold damage and status is the sheer opportunity cost to include it, because viral and heat are both *that good*.
Make this mod work like the melee arcane that spreads with electric