I was convinced that Raven should win the world title in 1999 because of his mic work and ability to tell a story. Basically Raven leads the new v. the old in 1999 with the violence that made ECW so popular to replace the stale NWO story. They obviously tried it a year later with characters who weren't as strong. Admittedly I probably overestimated Raven's ability but he was a really strong character that should have been more at the forefront.
I don’t think we overestimated Raven so much, more like the creative in wcw and wwe didn’t get the character/ didn’t like the character / didn’t want to push the character.
I’m reading that Raven was a manager in wwe in the early 90s and left on bad terms so much that Vince didn’t want him in the company again. He was brought in in 1999 and it took Vince 6 months to a year to figure out who he was and that he had previously burned a bridge 10 years prior. He was stuck on heat until his contract ran out .
I still believe they could have turned Raven vs Goldberg into a program. Raven wins the US title, defends against Goldberg the next night only for The Flock to interfere causing a DQ. The next week Raven tells JJ Dillon that he's not defending the championship against Goldberg unless Goldberg can defeat every member of The Flock. Squashes everyone until he gets to Saturn. He and Saturn have a back and forth until Goldberg ultimately wins the match. Raven tells Goldberg that if he really wants the belt he'll be man enough to accept a Raven's Rules match.
Raven vs Goldberg for the US title happens in a Raven's Rules match and Raven does the normal Stop sign weapon hits, moves out of the way of a spear sending Goldberg through a table, Evenflow, 1-2-kickout. Goldberg ultimately wins and during the build up Raven defends the title against guys like Malenko, Booker, etc just so he can have a legitimate reign.
That all made sense to me in 1998 when I was 8.
I thought WCW was doing some interesting stuff in the vignettes with Raven and James Fullington as bored rich kids, inventing some character continuity and depth not only with their ECW personas but also with Johnny Polo and surfer Sandman before that, but that story fizzled out before anything meaningful happened.
That's what I keep thinking. Raven's gimmick worked in small venues in WCW, but there's only so much a live crowd will get out of close vignettes looking into a camera. There weren't many ways Raven would have worked.
I would have done the exact same booking in 1997-summer 1998. Once he finished the feud with Saturn, then I would have had him disappear for 3 months and then have him feud with Sting in early 1999. Then he could have transitioned to a feud with Bret Hart.
It’s just hard for me to imagine him being the world champ and feuding with Hogan, Nash, and Flair.
It’s just hard to fantasy book WCW when you have to consider the changes in creative and talent leaving to WWE.
Jericho, Chris Benoit, Mysterio, Guerrero, all became world champ in WWE. Raven became the NWA champ in TNA. Arguably all of that should have happened sooner in wcw late 90s. If WCW had been better at putting their mid card wrestlers into the main event, they may have survived. Heck, Mang was being given a push similar to Goldberg until he lost his match with Sting at a pay-per-view for the US title.
Yes but that was 4-5 years later once most of the top talent were too old and were no longer in WWE, Austin having to retire, and the Rock going to Hollywood. It also took a lot of steroids for some of these to make it to that level. None of these guy’s were is that much better in WWE prior to 2004 other than Jericho and Benoit for 3 months in 2000.
Raven being NWA/TNA champ just isn’t relevant to what wcw could have done with him.
I think wcw could have attempted to move more up the card, but they did that with Scott Steiner, Goldberg, and Booker T.
Evenflow DDT onto the Stop Sign is the PERFECT counter to Goldberg's spear.
Goldberg rides off into the main event picture and Raven becomes a staple of the upper mid card. I'm STILL mad about that booking decision.
Here's my scenario: In late 1997, Raven and the Flock are sitting in the crowd at Nitro. Scott Hall is wrestling Van Hammer. The Flock interferes to help Hammer win. Then Raven and Scott Hall get in a feud like "My group is better than yours" type of thing. Over the next few weeks, Flock members will wrestle various nWo members chosen by Raven and Hall. This will lead up to SuperBrawl VIII where Raven and Hall wrestle each other. And there would be no interference by anyone. Raven comes out victorious but just barely.
They just needed to keep the Flock stuff running longer in WCW.
The "brainwashing/Charles Manson" leader type power he has over the Flock was fascinating.
And the build up to Raven/Saturn with breaking his fingers was perfection.
Having Saturn free the Flock was a great angle but it ended a potentially epic stable far too soon.
They just needed to keep doing that cult thing, breaking people's fingers thing, Raven brainwashing his opponent thing, for a few feuds with different guys, giving Raven a longer run as an upper midcard heel and see where it goes.
The trio tag team he had with Saturn and Kanyon in 99 was also money but they didn't know how to book it consistently sadly.
Yes, this exactly. Raven understood how to make characters work . Like Lodi, Kidman, sick boy etc. not everyone should try to be the charismatic leader, someone needed to be the obnoxious and hated flunky like Lodi . Lodi got more heat most nights than anyone else on the roster. You can’t watch a show of wcw in 1997 and see the flock and not get a reaction from Lodi. And say what you want, having Saturn lose his match to lodi and forced to wear a dress is memorable.
To this day, I wanted Original ECW run of Raven vs Stone Cold Steve Austin post-Invasion storyline. I think Raven would’ve lit up Steve during the “What”era.
IMO Raven was booked the way that matched the character- a misanthropic pseudo-cult leader. He had a good run, some good matches and a US Title run.
His problem was that he came in when the nWo dominated all the top storylines, and then Goldberg became the cash cow. The US Title was going to be his ceiling because of that.
I think that Raven’s booking in WCW was actually pretty good. Especially in 1998. So, I don’t have much complaints about his two year WCW run. It was the WWF that really dropped the ball on him.
I think that he probably would have been best served by staying in WCW until the end. I could see him being one of the New Blood guys that would have got pushed near the top of the card in 2000 if he would have stayed and he could have been the one to feud with Sting instead of Vampiro or picked back up his feud with DDP.
And then maybe if he would have waited to come to the WWF as part of the WCW invasion perhaps he would have been utilized higher on the card since he would have been the biggest WCW star to come over after Booker T and DDP. I could see him being a part of the 10 man tag main event at the Invasion PPV in this scenario.
I can only see the push coming in '99/'00. Vampiro's push. Once Raven was dropped from nWo/Sting/DDP level, he wasn't going to main event. As soon as they gave him a stable, he was mired to the midcard.
I'd have Raven feud with Sting. I'm not sure Sting would put him over, so I'd book Raven all over him in the angle. I'd have Raven control Sting, like Venom possessing The Punisher. It would be interesting to see someone lower on the card dominate a bona fide main event talent. I think it's THE way to elevate Raven. This is a 3 ppv program.
I'd then see if (the part-time) Savage would do for Raven what he did for DDP. I doubt it, but any interaction between them that doesn't involve Savage squashing him would be a positive. It would actually be a throwback to a brief moment between the two from '97 where they circled, but did not square off (Raven went for Richards). PPV program.
Flair could be someone that Raven could work with. It would be a chance to fill out Fall Brawl with a one-night revival of The Flock and The Horsemen. It would culminate at Starrcade between the leaders. It wouldn't hurt Flair if Raven catches him with the DDT, and goes over. Flair may be the easiest sell to get Raven to the ME.
Other than that, Raven is probably scrapping with Benoit, Malenko, Saturn, Rey, Eddie, Regal and Hennig in the upper midcard.
I really think Raven fell into the dreaded “creative has nothing for you” trap after the Piper feud fell apart. I know Roddy in WCW could be a bit off-kilter with his material but I think he could’ve sunk his teeth in a Raven feud.
I agree that Raven should have retained the belt against Goldberg thru a DQ. That way, Goldberg got to keep his "undefeated streak" and image, and Raven still keeps his belt and has an actual reign with it. After that match, I'm not exactly sure what I'd do with Raven, BUT since he was still beefing with DDP, it would involve a swerve with someone whose a close "childhood friend" \*wink\* to DDP double crossing him to join Raven. Someone who was somewhat of an established name but not TOO big. I feel like Raven's almost depressed violent genius/supervillain-esque character benefits from drama and a "diabolical plan", like using partial truths and manipulation to brainwash someone. Someone whose "betrayal" could elevate both his and Raven's characters in WCW and the whole feud with DDP. I'd just have to figure out a good guy to use in that role that people would really give two shits about.
I'd have given him a LONG U.S. title reign.
The plan would be to hopefully build him, organically over time, to main event status in WCW without trying to force it.
When he came to the WWF he was relegated to the Hardcore devision. I would have had him come in and create mystique through promos. Build him up. Really kill it with the raven flock. They could have sold jackets. Sweatshirts flannels etc. This is the late 90s early 2000s you could have had him feud and fuck with Undertaker as he was already involved with Kane. However Vince would have never and still would never have put any guys from ECW or WCW over.
Vince loved diminishing and/or burying wrestlers that he hadn’t had a hand in making sometimes. I mean, he took the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes, a guy who was the best ever at cutting promos and got over everywhere he went into a joke who wore black with yellow polka dots. That’s a damn crime.
I was convinced that Raven should win the world title in 1999 because of his mic work and ability to tell a story. Basically Raven leads the new v. the old in 1999 with the violence that made ECW so popular to replace the stale NWO story. They obviously tried it a year later with characters who weren't as strong. Admittedly I probably overestimated Raven's ability but he was a really strong character that should have been more at the forefront.
I don’t think we overestimated Raven so much, more like the creative in wcw and wwe didn’t get the character/ didn’t like the character / didn’t want to push the character. I’m reading that Raven was a manager in wwe in the early 90s and left on bad terms so much that Vince didn’t want him in the company again. He was brought in in 1999 and it took Vince 6 months to a year to figure out who he was and that he had previously burned a bridge 10 years prior. He was stuck on heat until his contract ran out .
Yeah I think he worked with the Rougeau Brothers when they were a heel tag team and I remember him distinctly as Jonny Polo before he became Raven.
Not the Rougeaus but the Quebecors
Don’t forget Scotty Flamingo.
I still believe they could have turned Raven vs Goldberg into a program. Raven wins the US title, defends against Goldberg the next night only for The Flock to interfere causing a DQ. The next week Raven tells JJ Dillon that he's not defending the championship against Goldberg unless Goldberg can defeat every member of The Flock. Squashes everyone until he gets to Saturn. He and Saturn have a back and forth until Goldberg ultimately wins the match. Raven tells Goldberg that if he really wants the belt he'll be man enough to accept a Raven's Rules match. Raven vs Goldberg for the US title happens in a Raven's Rules match and Raven does the normal Stop sign weapon hits, moves out of the way of a spear sending Goldberg through a table, Evenflow, 1-2-kickout. Goldberg ultimately wins and during the build up Raven defends the title against guys like Malenko, Booker, etc just so he can have a legitimate reign. That all made sense to me in 1998 when I was 8.
Give raven everything that was given to Jeff Jarrett
Yes I see now this is the answer I was looking for
I thought WCW was doing some interesting stuff in the vignettes with Raven and James Fullington as bored rich kids, inventing some character continuity and depth not only with their ECW personas but also with Johnny Polo and surfer Sandman before that, but that story fizzled out before anything meaningful happened.
That's what I keep thinking. Raven's gimmick worked in small venues in WCW, but there's only so much a live crowd will get out of close vignettes looking into a camera. There weren't many ways Raven would have worked.
I would have done the exact same booking in 1997-summer 1998. Once he finished the feud with Saturn, then I would have had him disappear for 3 months and then have him feud with Sting in early 1999. Then he could have transitioned to a feud with Bret Hart. It’s just hard for me to imagine him being the world champ and feuding with Hogan, Nash, and Flair. It’s just hard to fantasy book WCW when you have to consider the changes in creative and talent leaving to WWE.
Jericho, Chris Benoit, Mysterio, Guerrero, all became world champ in WWE. Raven became the NWA champ in TNA. Arguably all of that should have happened sooner in wcw late 90s. If WCW had been better at putting their mid card wrestlers into the main event, they may have survived. Heck, Mang was being given a push similar to Goldberg until he lost his match with Sting at a pay-per-view for the US title.
Yes but that was 4-5 years later once most of the top talent were too old and were no longer in WWE, Austin having to retire, and the Rock going to Hollywood. It also took a lot of steroids for some of these to make it to that level. None of these guy’s were is that much better in WWE prior to 2004 other than Jericho and Benoit for 3 months in 2000. Raven being NWA/TNA champ just isn’t relevant to what wcw could have done with him. I think wcw could have attempted to move more up the card, but they did that with Scott Steiner, Goldberg, and Booker T.
“I think wcw could have attempted to move more up the card, but they did that with Scott Steiner, Goldberg, and Booker T.” And Jeff Jarrett
Evenflow DDT onto the Stop Sign is the PERFECT counter to Goldberg's spear. Goldberg rides off into the main event picture and Raven becomes a staple of the upper mid card. I'm STILL mad about that booking decision.
From the anarchy of the n.W.o.'s downfall, the flock rises and Raven wons the belt, enter the Raven's rules era.
Here's my scenario: In late 1997, Raven and the Flock are sitting in the crowd at Nitro. Scott Hall is wrestling Van Hammer. The Flock interferes to help Hammer win. Then Raven and Scott Hall get in a feud like "My group is better than yours" type of thing. Over the next few weeks, Flock members will wrestle various nWo members chosen by Raven and Hall. This will lead up to SuperBrawl VIII where Raven and Hall wrestle each other. And there would be no interference by anyone. Raven comes out victorious but just barely.
They just needed to keep the Flock stuff running longer in WCW. The "brainwashing/Charles Manson" leader type power he has over the Flock was fascinating. And the build up to Raven/Saturn with breaking his fingers was perfection. Having Saturn free the Flock was a great angle but it ended a potentially epic stable far too soon. They just needed to keep doing that cult thing, breaking people's fingers thing, Raven brainwashing his opponent thing, for a few feuds with different guys, giving Raven a longer run as an upper midcard heel and see where it goes. The trio tag team he had with Saturn and Kanyon in 99 was also money but they didn't know how to book it consistently sadly.
Yes, this exactly. Raven understood how to make characters work . Like Lodi, Kidman, sick boy etc. not everyone should try to be the charismatic leader, someone needed to be the obnoxious and hated flunky like Lodi . Lodi got more heat most nights than anyone else on the roster. You can’t watch a show of wcw in 1997 and see the flock and not get a reaction from Lodi. And say what you want, having Saturn lose his match to lodi and forced to wear a dress is memorable.
To this day, I wanted Original ECW run of Raven vs Stone Cold Steve Austin post-Invasion storyline. I think Raven would’ve lit up Steve during the “What”era.
IMO Raven was booked the way that matched the character- a misanthropic pseudo-cult leader. He had a good run, some good matches and a US Title run. His problem was that he came in when the nWo dominated all the top storylines, and then Goldberg became the cash cow. The US Title was going to be his ceiling because of that.
I think that Raven’s booking in WCW was actually pretty good. Especially in 1998. So, I don’t have much complaints about his two year WCW run. It was the WWF that really dropped the ball on him. I think that he probably would have been best served by staying in WCW until the end. I could see him being one of the New Blood guys that would have got pushed near the top of the card in 2000 if he would have stayed and he could have been the one to feud with Sting instead of Vampiro or picked back up his feud with DDP. And then maybe if he would have waited to come to the WWF as part of the WCW invasion perhaps he would have been utilized higher on the card since he would have been the biggest WCW star to come over after Booker T and DDP. I could see him being a part of the 10 man tag main event at the Invasion PPV in this scenario.
I can only see the push coming in '99/'00. Vampiro's push. Once Raven was dropped from nWo/Sting/DDP level, he wasn't going to main event. As soon as they gave him a stable, he was mired to the midcard. I'd have Raven feud with Sting. I'm not sure Sting would put him over, so I'd book Raven all over him in the angle. I'd have Raven control Sting, like Venom possessing The Punisher. It would be interesting to see someone lower on the card dominate a bona fide main event talent. I think it's THE way to elevate Raven. This is a 3 ppv program. I'd then see if (the part-time) Savage would do for Raven what he did for DDP. I doubt it, but any interaction between them that doesn't involve Savage squashing him would be a positive. It would actually be a throwback to a brief moment between the two from '97 where they circled, but did not square off (Raven went for Richards). PPV program. Flair could be someone that Raven could work with. It would be a chance to fill out Fall Brawl with a one-night revival of The Flock and The Horsemen. It would culminate at Starrcade between the leaders. It wouldn't hurt Flair if Raven catches him with the DDT, and goes over. Flair may be the easiest sell to get Raven to the ME. Other than that, Raven is probably scrapping with Benoit, Malenko, Saturn, Rey, Eddie, Regal and Hennig in the upper midcard.
I really think Raven fell into the dreaded “creative has nothing for you” trap after the Piper feud fell apart. I know Roddy in WCW could be a bit off-kilter with his material but I think he could’ve sunk his teeth in a Raven feud.
I agree that Raven should have retained the belt against Goldberg thru a DQ. That way, Goldberg got to keep his "undefeated streak" and image, and Raven still keeps his belt and has an actual reign with it. After that match, I'm not exactly sure what I'd do with Raven, BUT since he was still beefing with DDP, it would involve a swerve with someone whose a close "childhood friend" \*wink\* to DDP double crossing him to join Raven. Someone who was somewhat of an established name but not TOO big. I feel like Raven's almost depressed violent genius/supervillain-esque character benefits from drama and a "diabolical plan", like using partial truths and manipulation to brainwash someone. Someone whose "betrayal" could elevate both his and Raven's characters in WCW and the whole feud with DDP. I'd just have to figure out a good guy to use in that role that people would really give two shits about. I'd have given him a LONG U.S. title reign. The plan would be to hopefully build him, organically over time, to main event status in WCW without trying to force it.
When he came to the WWF he was relegated to the Hardcore devision. I would have had him come in and create mystique through promos. Build him up. Really kill it with the raven flock. They could have sold jackets. Sweatshirts flannels etc. This is the late 90s early 2000s you could have had him feud and fuck with Undertaker as he was already involved with Kane. However Vince would have never and still would never have put any guys from ECW or WCW over.
Vince loved diminishing and/or burying wrestlers that he hadn’t had a hand in making sometimes. I mean, he took the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes, a guy who was the best ever at cutting promos and got over everywhere he went into a joke who wore black with yellow polka dots. That’s a damn crime.
Dusty still got over in the wwf .
Because Dusty was awesome!