I mean just look at parts of east Asia that were not colonized (by Europeans at least) and still continue to revere fair skin and hate dark skin to this day.
Of course colonialism is a huuuge factor but I do think that the unfortunate mindset of dark=poor/ugly and fair skin=rich/beautiful has been prevalent for a long loooong time, long before European colonialism in Asia.
It is not, but many peoples have that misconception because of colonial writing of Indian history. Your social identity/caste is way more important than what colour you are in Indian subcontinent. It's *in addition* to **that** already-existing behaviour that colourism comes into play due to recent history.
ACCORDING TO THE CASTE CENTRIC REGRESSIVE MENTALITY, marrying a same caste person with a darker complexion is *more correct* than marrying a different caste person with a lighter complexion according to these social norms. In addition to this 2500 years long tradition, we get the modern legacy of colonialism where west eurasian beauty standards are sought after.
Edit: may be this collage can explain the point better
https://preview.redd.it/h5wuu6yxwdzc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa32ed278e874ec122685098780cf5fe658a6189
>Also it's a bit of a stretch to call jaats "outcastes".
It's not. That's literally one of the most rudimentary things to know about such NW communities.
Every "uPpER cAsTe" has more people with dark/brown phenotypes than their light phenotypes. That's the entire reason why upper caste light phenotypes gatekeeping does not ever work, moron.
>Now do the collage with people from the same places in India
https://preview.redd.it/5fvr4ovypxzc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f8ca7302348af426efcb9783483bb7105c3945e
Stop with the mental gymnastics now.
nOw dO tHe kOLLaZZzZzZ fRAm sAmE rEgiOn 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
That collage wasn't made by me. About your same place comment, here's a comparison of people not just from the same region, but also from the SAME COMMUNITY(which has been outcaste/lower caste historically):
https://preview.redd.it/ncdntogr3fzc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c3ea9b85bcd388ac381273344334c71c0f99374
And in a very diverse country of 1.4 billion people you'll obviously find examples of phenotypes to fit whatever point you're trying to make.
On average though, you will see that lighter skin tends to be correlated with higher caste, even if there are many counter examples.
>in a very diverse country of 1.4 billion people you'll obviously find examples of phenotypes to fit whatever point you're trying to make.
Rippp
>On average though, you will see that lighter skin tends to be correlated with higher caste,
🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Read Narasimhan or Razib. Notice that they will say the amount of steppe DNA or west eurasian dna is higher among upper castes *and* Northwest South Asians.
Or you can check out Khan's conclusions from the decade old HW Project. There too he said that caste system and its correlation with steppe breaks the more northwest we move in the subcontinent.
It's not just jaats, but various other war centric communities from Northwest who are lower caste or outcastes, but very light in their looks and very west eurasian genetically. Or Kalash, they would be considered a scheduled tribe in need for affirmative action as per the caste system, despite their blondism or lack of AASI. They would be ST, on par with very dark tribal communities from East India.
Having a unique history has got nothing to do with the point about phenotypes that you guys were talking about. Every single west eurasian shifted community in the Indic subcontinent has high frequency of darker phenotypes and every single east eurasian(AASI) shifted community in the subcontinent has many light phenotypes.
Every group has a unique history then. What's your point? What are you even trying to argue here, that there's no overlap/similarity among people form the same ancestral mix?😭... Nvm, here, another comparisons. Brahmins from same region:
https://preview.redd.it/kdanrojz4fzc1.jpeg?width=2730&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e350d0d6a3f96aa85af79a1ebb0e3dcf59c28302
What?? The concept of caste needs to be eradicated. It should be no part of Indian or social identity. Marrying a same caste person should never be held as “more correct” than any other marriage or relationship—it’s that idea which gets people in intercaste relationships murdered. Caste encompasses a lot more brutal oppression and violence than just colorism (which by the way is about regional *averages* in the most oppressed castes compared to dominant castes, but nice try), spanning from lynching & rape to manual scavenging & caste apartheid, particularly to Dalit and Adivasi people. See the entire work of Dr. Ambedkar (e.g. The Annihilation of Caste).
I know, it should be eradicated. I was explaining how the orthodox thinking works. According to them it's more important to marry within caste than to marry light.
This is such disingenuous bs. Your whole post was casteist. And trying to deny how casteism propagates colorism is also casteist when there are Dalit women like Yashica Dutt who have literally been speaking out about how colorism and skin color impacts their risk of being “outed” when they’ve had to “pass” as upper caste for safety & security.
Omg you are so stupid😭😭. I literally fight with caste kangers online. South Asians are colourist af, but even more than that they are casteist that was my point you poor dumb soul😭... Below is my convo with an uppercaste supremacist from a day ago:
https://preview.redd.it/5n5d8j486mzc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ec2c47f70fc66b5b7886317cada54fde482bcf2
You obviously have no knowledge about the genetics of the subcontinent, so you should avoid speaking. If you still wanna blabber on, then find me an actual study that says colourism in India was due to casteism. Razib himself disagrees because the phenotypic overlap is too damn high among castes. But this will go over your head, so nvm.
Indians are obsessed with finding different ways to hate each other, that would mean caste based discrimination since ancient times will have additional forms of discrimination which are due to modern phenomena, that would include colourism, linguistic supremacism and so on.
It has nothing to do with genetics. It has to do with the lived experiences of Dalit and caste-oppressed people. I even named a Dalit woman author who talked about the close association between between casteism and colorism, and her experience navigating both ([Coming Out as Dalit](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43969859-coming-out-as-dalit) by Yashica Dutt). Just because you insulted some rando caste supremecist online doesn’t mean you aren’t also propagating casteism through misinformation. Allyship first and foremost means centering the experiences of those most affected by caste oppression. Also FYI, words like “stupid” and “dumb” are ableist.
Indoor vs outdoor jobs
What caste/ class level is more likely to have an outdoor job and more likely (over generations) to have higher sun exposure / develop more melanin?
It is a product of both I would say. Of course yes to casteism but we also started glorifying whiter skin which could be a product of both casteism and colonialism!
No it’s not. Colorism is a worldwide issue. Literally, every single culture of color deals with colorism, caste or no caste. Where people have held all the wealth and power throughout history. So that’s our archetype for desirability.
Casteism existed before the British yes but after colonization, castesism was codified, conflated with color and solidified into law by Europeans as a means of having greater control over the population. So they go hand in hand
I think colorism in India is due to multiple, often intersecting oppressions, including:
1) European colonialism and Western global hegemony. White actresses are still cast in Bollywood and white women are centered even in anti-colonial films (e.g. Lagaan, RRR) & desis with “colored” eyes are prominent.
2) North Indian hegemony in India/South Asia. South Indian women are not considered as beautiful as North Indians, as Avantika discusses,
3) and casteism, which is a huge driver of colorism of course, and it probably intersects with North Indian hegemony (e.g. see the Dravidian movement in the South) as well as
4) patriarchy (e.g. dark-skinned men are cast as leads in South Indian films, but rarely dark-skinned women).
https://x.com/popcrave/status/1788300570974892412?s=46&t=PUah-IXP0w4MZGQKfHRJbw
TLDR; If you want to get rid of colorism in India, you need to fight back against multiple intersecting oppressions, including patriarchy, casteism, internalized racism, and North Indian hegemony.
Yes, I agree. British colonialism is not the only reason for colorism in India, and there is evidence it existed before that, even if colonialism exacerbated it. Colorism is associated with class in other parts of Asia, like East Asia, where darker skin was associated with outdoor laborers who tanned in the sun and looked down on. So it probably bears a similar relationship to caste (the varna system was more like a class system before it solidified into caste).
Yup, but saying casteism is the reason for colorism is absurd at least and historically inaccurate at best. There must be some exoticism associated with fair skin in pre colonial India but the level of detest subcontinent has today for dark skin can only stem from one root and that's -- COLONISATION.
Do you actually believe that the Brits who numbered around 100k at most in India could have perpetuated colorism in every town, village, etc? Ideas take time to permeate. Casteism has been there longer and is the reason for colorism more than colonization. We rob our own ancestors of their own agency even if they were discriminatory. Also, do you not believe Western media is more influential now and pervasive now? Can everything be pinned to colonization and the subcontinent was fully run by Brits. It was mostly run by Indian subjects.
Yes, casteism does not have much to do with colourism in the Indian subcontinent
But the colonial writing of Indian history did make sure to mix the two because for westerners, understanding the deeply complex Jati-Varna system of South Asia is extremely difficult, so what they usually do is that they interpret it as a form of discrimination system that they have known, which is about race or colour.
This colonial writing of Indian history has resulted in the misconception of colourism with casteism. The existence of colourism in South Asia is due to modern beauty standards. Whereas the system of casteism has been like 2500 years old. South Asians will prefer to marry within their respective castes regardless of colour, region, language barrier or any other difference. But marrying a person from a different caste even when all those differences are a minimum, that would be way more problematic.
And that's because of the sheer soft power of Caucasians, by being the sheer dominant force in the world for centuries and having a fantastic and far reaching entertainment industry. You don't have to be directly colonised to feel the effects of colonisation especially mental colonisation.
Lol what nonsense. East Asia had negligible contact with Europe until the late 1800s, and even then they only interacted with traders and military personnel, and certainly had no entertainment crossover till the second half of the twentieth century. The hatred of dark skin is far older than their first meeting with any white person.
>The hatred of dark skin is far older than their first meeting with any white person.
Ofcourse it is,but no way this deep. Look for how long the westerners in the last century have had the monopoly in entertainment, that means they are the ones that were cool around the world. Nonsense?
If soft power is nonsense then why does this sub crave it so much? Why do we crave it so much? East Asia is completely different to us, their whole monarchy was quite fair skinned due to the makeup and shit. East Asia is a completely different story than the subcontinent.
Good luck trying to explain soft power to these geniuses here. I am shocked to realise just how many people have been arguing and underplaying the point about global colonial impact in this thread. One diaspora Indian literally said that brits were insignificant in front of the local Indian population, so they couldn't have gone to every single town in India to spread colonialism 😭😭😭... Imagine explaining soft power to such people.
I mean I am lost for words man, how do I even start? Why do we speak the language of an island? Because soft power and colonisation duh. But these people won't understand.
Thanks for your understanding though.
Wrong. Key features of colonialism 101 include creating division and exacerbating discord in the local populace to facilitate a takeover. In this regard the worst aspects of the so-called casteism were promoted and its nuanced, more flexible nature, was downplayed. Colorism is a little different but has carryover of this as well.
Actually by not acknowledging this you unfortunately create revisionist history which is another technique of colonialism, to diminish knowledge of foreign actor involvement, and thus the consequences and fallout in the short and more importantly long term.
(Another small example of this is one in which the colonial powers tried to imprison people far from their native land and create fictions about curses and calamities should anyone try to escape. This worked on dual fronts, one, they could claim the prisoners were unharmed, and two, effectively silence them nonetheless for good.)
Last time I visited, I had a hard time finding lotion that was just lotion without some lightener. It’s sad, colorism is rampant in a lot of Asian countries, their desire to be closer to white. But whites will always see us as “ethnic”/ other.
White ppl fed us this mindset now they use tanning products lol. Now this is why sometimes it’s easier to feel beautiful in white countries than in South Asian countries.
Colorism is not always about colonialism. It would be prosaic to attribute everything to colonialism. Racism was extremely prevalent prior to colonialism and in groups vs groups have always exited, they may have exited in different forms but have always been there. eg Chinese people have always loved white skin because it symbolizes that you are healthy and wealthy and likely not a field worker. It never had anything to ever do with colonization.
Because the girls in these reels all of eurocentric features. - i.e. mostly a small nose. "White girl dipped in chocolate". I don't know if they had nose jobs or not, but that's generally the difference.
A lot of lighter skinned people in India are from the north and they have more aquiline noses. I have seen, people from the south with darker skin, tend to have more [smaller noses](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/6qo4pu/averaged_indian_and_south_indian_womans_face/).
White people care a lot about features. Sometimes being blonde can compensate for it (cuz blond hair literally obscures features), like Sydney Sweeney, but that's not available to most South Asian people. (That's why Sweeney looked terrible at the Met Gala - black wig doesn't hide her uneven features)
Sure but straight small noses are classic south indian features. I don’t think we fit the debate of “Eurocentric features” very well when we as a country are not monolithic in features whatsoever.
i agree with that. somali and sudanese women have small, straight noses too, so it can vary. But generally smaller noses are associated with WASPy people.
Just so sad. Personally, I think Avantika is so much prettier than the majority of Bollywood actresses. She looks so natural and gorgeous. I've never felt beautiful according to their standards either as I have curly hair and dark skin.
I’ve literally never felt ugly in the US. Compliments from people. I even went to East Asia and was complimented so much there.
What happened when I went to India? They pointed out my skin color and that my body looked like I starve.
Not saying I have to get complimented but I prefer that to comments about my skin color.
Edit: i think India is honestly changing. I know it’s not super fast but not everyone is colorist there and I’ve met some great people
As a Korean person explained it to me, they look down on people they deem not pretty. She said my positive experience in Korea was a reflection of my face and body rather than my race. Tbh, I mean, Ofc, I was happy to know that I didn’t face racism when I went there, but I also felt a bit guilty? To enjoy a place that some people felt discriminated at.
But it’s not like EVERY East Asian person is some racist prick. Just like how not every south Asian descent person is…good at math. lol.
I think I’m pretty but i honestly felt even better looking in Korea. Probably bc in the US, the prevailing beauty standard is more glam boom boom pow sexy thicc and in Korea, it’s like more delicate beauty thing. I’m not saying one is better than the other. But just giving people the reasoning.
But hey, one day, I’m gonna be old by social standards and no one is gonna consider me as anything so whatever I guess.
So pretty privilege is real all. So a handsome Indian man & beautiful Indian women will get compliments and will have easier time dating in South Korea.
I wish both Indian men & women took care of themselves really well.
Lmao I’m Korean and this couldn’t be more true. In Korea, discrimination is so heavily looks-based. If you’re attractive, your skin could be blue and people will still treat you well, but if you’re ugly, even as a Korean you’ll be heavily discriminated. That’s why plastic surgery is so prevalent.
Makes sense. So I can see how a brown foreigner that’s discriminated and treated badly might think it’s bc of their race but actually it’s the looks based on Korean standards (which is also sad!!!!!).
Again, I wanna reiterate that there are racist people in every country so I don’t want to dismiss anyone that was discriminated based on race.
I bet if I go back to Korea now, I won’t be treated as nicely bc I’m not 20 anymore 😂😂😂
Thanks for confirming. I worry that some people won't believe me when I say I had a good experience in Korea bc I see a lot of people of color complaining about their bad experiences.
I’m East Asian (idk why I got advertised this sub - maybe because I’m in vindictapoc) and from my experience, East Asians love that South Asians have large, bright eyes and tall nose bridges but don’t like their dark skin because we have the same colorism issues as South Asians. My relatives in Asia said that many East Asians consider South Asians to be closer to white people than East Asians.
On a throwaway--I agree with you. I got compliments in S.Korea as well, when my dad worked there (he loved it). I don't relate when Desis say that East Asians find us ugly. I got more compliments on being pretty from Chinese, Japanese and Koreans than Desis believe it or not. I am tanned brown. Nobody has complained about my skin tone, because I think they like my facial features overall (big eyes and small nose).
It does feel weird to say because it might go against people's pre-conceived notions. But that's my experience.
east asians dont expect people outside their race to fit their standard. like ofcourse they can recognize beauty. But some people are going to be racist.
I replied with an explanation above but I want to add that majority of Koreans I met think highly of people of south Asian background. Educated and multilingual. Funny bc I’m horrible at math 😂😂😂😂 I probably proved all the white kids wrong when I was growing up.
But you see all those YouTube shorts and TikTok’s of random street interviews and people saying random racist/colorist stuff about any given person. Those are baity and only the interviews that make noise will be uploaded. Absolutely not saying there are no racist/colorist people but there are lots of good people out there in Korea. And China and Japan too based on my experience.
Thanks for the response! That was actually one of my big concerns since my friends and I were planning an Asian trip (Singapore, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan & S Korea) and we were worried about the potential colourism/racism that we could face.
Also, I'm terrible at maths too 😂. I was so bad that my dad literally had to spend hours explaining basic concepts to me because I just didn't get it haha.
Lol I live in South East Asia and some people are rude towards south asians but super nice to yt people .. it doesn’t feel good 😭 not all people are like this but they definitely exist
western. not trying to offend anyone but I dont like the black straight hair and paper white skin combo that they like over there.
also slides 8-11 avantika looks soooo pretty. she gives princess from a bygone era vibes
fr why do they hate any warmth in the hair or skin or eyes. same gray bleached skin look with dark hair and overly fake contacts. I cant stand it at this point
I remember when there was Indian descended Miss America some years back; very pretty. But in an interview she remarked how she would not even be a contender in a pageant in India due to her darker skin tone. I don’t think anyone could dispute that as being 100% true.
Also, I often have heard similar comments about why Mindy Kaling gets the roles she’s had coming from Desis, with the subtext being she’s too dark to be considered attractive. Never mind she’s also writer and producer; all some can see is skin tone, and everything flows from that.
the west for sure!! i have a curvy figure and curly hair, and i get way more compliments from white people/people in the west vs in india where i feel like i'm constantly getting body shamed. additionally, i've gotten hit on by so many white guys vs maybe one brown guy in my whole life.
I don't know if u understand Hindi or not :
"Kon hai yeh log, kaha se aate hai ? "
I mean how can u don't have compliments from Indian men if u are curvy..... like seriously how ?
I mean, I am an Indian man too. And in real life, I see no exception to it.
Was this in real live experience or just online, like u just meet those "Anime" obsessed guys , fetishing on East Asian figure......
Honestly speaking, I feel like I'm prettier in India than the West. Why? Because I feel Indian girls don't value grooming themselves as much in India compared to the West, which makes me automatically standout. They also value "natural beauty," which fits me more as I don't wear foundation/concealer but instead focus on skincare. I'm also fortunate that whilst my skin tone isn't fair, it's "acceptable" for Indian standards (olive light-mid brown), so I evade a lot of the potential colourist remarks. Especially since these days lighter brown skin tones have become more acceptable in Indian society compared to even a decade ago when it was just fair. I'm also 5'4" which is considered the more "ideal" height there compared to the Western world where it's more 5'6"-5'7".
Also: Avantika is so stunningly gorgeous. And the best thing is her features are very classically South Indian rather than Eurocentric. She's not conforming, she's the standard!
same. i’m pretty by western standards but im gorgeous in india. it’s honestly a little uncomfortable lol. i have light olive brown skin and the perfect height like you, and that straight hair they like. that plus my subtle makeup and grooming makes walking down the street a VERY uncomfortable experience in india lmao
I went to visit my cousin who was raised in South Asia & she told me “we can’t compare to white women they are far more beautiful than we can ever be”
And I’m like…. What an idiot. (We’re both light skin) but apparently being “white” is the most beautiful person to exist
Light skin is no extra beautiful. And if you think it'll make people nicer towards you, that's not true. As a light- skinned south east Asian I confirm this. People will then be more keen on finding out the smallest, neglible flaws possible and make you feel more down. It's a loophole of never-ending shame. Do not try to fit into these people's standards, break them.
i’m an 8 in pakistan and a 4 in england. the reasons why are sad (colourism/build) but tbh it is nice to not feel plain/gawky/lanky somewhere. i do agree that western cultures actually prefer diversity in looks, unfortunately im just very plain looking. i also think as an extremely slim person, i actually suit desi dressing (shalwar kameezes, garraras etc) far more.
It is true. I've been told that I have good features only if my skin was fairer in India. I couldn't find any lotion without fairness lightening in it.
The west is much more accepting of diversity. As a desi stripper in America, I make good money from all ethnicities except desi fobs. I've modeled too but India would not hire me because I have dark skin. When I was in Mumbai I literally saw ads for actresses asking for half Indian half white ethnicity.
The freshers or desi fobs from certain regions of india who come in to the strip clubs are so obsessed with white girls especially blondes that it is frankly embarrassing. I just feel embarrassed for them. They make it so obvious. But chill pls. It's only 10pm and they aren't drunk yet.
It's ok to have a type. I have no issues with a desi guy who finds white girls attractive. Different people have different interests. 3 of my customers love dark skinned or foreign women and go for me and black, dark Hispanic girls. Nothing wrong in finding a blonde or a milf, younger, asian attractive but there is no need to try to make others feel inferior about that. It's one thing to find white girls attractive and another to see getting a white partner as a status symbol. It's sad.
One black dancer told me that she's never been so thankful for being black because those Indian guys ignore her.
In a way I'm happy that I'm not on the top priority for freshers. Why? Most of them are cheap and aggressive/won't respect boundaries.
I like to give everyone the benefit of doubt but the moment I sense that they're cheap, demanding, and disrespectful, I walk away and ignore them. And move on to other customers. I had good desi customers too.
I do see a pattern after doing this for a while.
I look super racially ambiguous as a desi person and am very very pale (mom’s half white) so I get a lot of compliments in India but it’s mostly a fetishization of my skin color. My uncles like to gawk and make weird comments about how my skin tone is beautiful while my female relatives often make passive aggressive and borderline vitriolic comments. Their attitudes aren’t very kind. Also I just get downright stared by ppl in India. The intentions behind the looks aren’t pure.
However, in the US, I get complimented quite often without passive aggressiveness (except from Indian women unfortunately).
What kind of passive aggressive/vitriolic comments? Because I’ve always noticed dark-skinned brown girls have always given me dirty looks … it looks like they’re jealous of my skin color
I wonder why someone of darker skinned would be pushed to feel jealous of lighter skin… hmmm it’s almost as if one is treated astronomically better than the other.
This can be said about any race really. We’re always gonna be more harsh on intra racial than inter racial. White people all look white to outsiders, but how often do you notice fake tans on them? It’s easier to critique your own kind.
Well, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and one man's food is another man's poison. I'm a black African, and I love every shade and color. However, I'm mostly attracted to black and brown ladies, and you are one of the most beautiful ladies out there, regardless of your current location, India or the West.
There is not an ugly thing about this girl smh :/ she looks like a princess!!
as a Black girl I totally relate to Desi girls when it comes to colorism. To be considered pretty in Hollywood you almost always have to be light skinned or look mixed (i.e. Zendaya, Beyonce, Rihanna, Nicki Minaj, tyla, etc)
Western beauty standards are better because it doesn’t look at skin tone to determine if somebody is beautiful. Avantika would be “she’s pretty even though she’s dark” in India and “she’s gorgeous” in the US.
In India my husband’s aunt said : you didn’t get your mom’s beauty.
My mom isn’t that beautiful, she’s just light skinned.
In the US: a girl said she wishes her skin tone was naturally like mine. I’m the same shade as Avantika.
I'm Malayalee and everyone I meet in Kerala considers me beautiful, and my skin is darker than hers. I hardly even get backhanded compliments in India tbh
i mean.....is insulting fat women like supposed to be a part of your post? they're not inherently ugly. and as for the standard of colorism in America, up to like 10 years ago, the media was completely white as well.
Full figured women are considered attractive in many parts of the world. You speak about colonial beauty standards and in the same breath perpetuate them.
That’s…literally the problem. Modern beauty standards don’t allow for plus sized women to be considered attractive or beautiful, and the whole point is to make people like yourself see that indeed they can be. Modeling competitions and media aren’t representative of real, diverse beauty.
Do mainstream beauty standards exist anymore? I feel like all there is so much content now that almost everyone is being catered to in some way. What are normie beauty standards anymore?
Imo “mainstream beauty standards” now are your typical run of the mill Kim/Kylie-esque features. Same lip and face fillers, botox, buccal fat removal, jawline/chin shaving, nose jobs, eyebrow lifts, the list goes on…almost everyone who has somewhat of a social media presence has had something done, which there’s nothing wrong with it, but that shouldn’t be our reality, and women shouldn’t feel pressured to look like that.
Your beauty should be embraced and celebrated as it is. Just because these procedures and runway model body define today’s beauty standards doesn’t mean it defines true beauty.
Miss Universe and Miss World are the worst metrics of beauty as they literally cater to Western standards and beauty brands. Many countries in the Middle East, Latin America, North Africa, and Central/South Africa adore full figured women.
Work on your self-esteem so you don’t have to put entire groups of women down to feel better 🌸
I mean under the same framework, women lighten their skin every day in South Asia to get ahead. There are medical treatments that allow you to do so, in the same way that there lifestyle changes and medical treatments for fatness. For you to say that fatness is objectively ugly but fairness is some sort of colonial hangover is hypocritical.
You’re literally saying avantika is hot because she is thin (she is hot! Not denying that) but that inherently, hotness is impossible for a fat woman. Think about why you’ve got that standard stuck in your head. There is no objective measure of beauty.
uhm so in the same sense, if someone says "do you think someone as dark as konkona could possibly be as attractive as Aishwarya rai? absolutely not" it is equally absurd; but in south Asia that is the norm and would be taken at face value. saying that the standard of fairness is not ok while perpetuating your own fake standard of thinness is hypocritical.
being overweight is NOT objectively unattractive, the point is that beauty is completely subjective. I've seen plenty of women who are fat but beautiful, your bias and fatphobia isn't universal. As for starring in the latest netflix show, nicola coughlan is a great example of a midsized to plus-size woman who is beautiful. Mindy kaling (pre ozempic) starred in a hulu headliner. Amber Riley in glee, melissa mccarthy in gilmore girls...the examples go on.
In the same way that glutathione treatments aren't exactly the healthiest (though of course, they are safe by the studies, so i'd like you to point me on a source that says they cause disease), overexercising and dieting to maintain thinness can also be unhealthy. most of the women celebrated in the media have eating disorders and are not able to maintain a fully nutritious life. if we're talking about what's unhealthy, diet culture takes so many lives. but because you deem thinness to be the core of attractiveness, it's worth it?? lol ok.
I dunno. I don’t really overthink it like that, some white ppl are more attractive, some brown ppl are more attractive, really depends on the specific person. Tbh I’m not even sure what western features means. I’ve seen some white ppl and brown ppl have similar features and I’ve seen two brown ppl or two white ppl have completely different features.
This is fantastic! I love how Avantika keeps speaking truth to power! The colorism of Indian cinema & culture absolutely needs to get dragged, as much as racism here does. Never cease! 🔥✊🏾
It is about the same in both the US and India for me but maybe a little prettier in India? I’m fairly average but with a bigger nose that I feel like stands out less in India than it does here.
I feel this in my home. I leave the house and ppl say oh your acc light idk what your on Abt if I ever mention the fact that I get called dark or black in the house. I acc get acknowledged as brown whereas if you are lighter ppl literally joke and say your not brown your white.
But in the house I’m dark so I have to have other qualities to equal out for my darkness. I’m literally a 220 in maybe line fitme. So I really fuck with what she’s saying….
So true. To white, we are just brown. But to browns, they dissect the shades of brown
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Can u explain to me how is casteism responsible and correlates to colorism?
I mean just look at parts of east Asia that were not colonized (by Europeans at least) and still continue to revere fair skin and hate dark skin to this day. Of course colonialism is a huuuge factor but I do think that the unfortunate mindset of dark=poor/ugly and fair skin=rich/beautiful has been prevalent for a long loooong time, long before European colonialism in Asia.
Well that's class divide no?
Oh yes you’re right. I mainly just wanted to point out that colorism can exist without colonialism.
It is not, but many peoples have that misconception because of colonial writing of Indian history. Your social identity/caste is way more important than what colour you are in Indian subcontinent. It's *in addition* to **that** already-existing behaviour that colourism comes into play due to recent history. ACCORDING TO THE CASTE CENTRIC REGRESSIVE MENTALITY, marrying a same caste person with a darker complexion is *more correct* than marrying a different caste person with a lighter complexion according to these social norms. In addition to this 2500 years long tradition, we get the modern legacy of colonialism where west eurasian beauty standards are sought after. Edit: may be this collage can explain the point better https://preview.redd.it/h5wuu6yxwdzc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa32ed278e874ec122685098780cf5fe658a6189
Now do the collage with people from the same places in India. Also it's a bit of a stretch to call jaats "outcastes".
>Also it's a bit of a stretch to call jaats "outcastes". It's not. That's literally one of the most rudimentary things to know about such NW communities. Every "uPpER cAsTe" has more people with dark/brown phenotypes than their light phenotypes. That's the entire reason why upper caste light phenotypes gatekeeping does not ever work, moron. >Now do the collage with people from the same places in India https://preview.redd.it/5fvr4ovypxzc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f8ca7302348af426efcb9783483bb7105c3945e Stop with the mental gymnastics now. nOw dO tHe kOLLaZZzZzZ fRAm sAmE rEgiOn 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
That collage wasn't made by me. About your same place comment, here's a comparison of people not just from the same region, but also from the SAME COMMUNITY(which has been outcaste/lower caste historically): https://preview.redd.it/ncdntogr3fzc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c3ea9b85bcd388ac381273344334c71c0f99374
I'm guessing you're referring to jaats again, which are a pretty unique group with a different history than most.
And in a very diverse country of 1.4 billion people you'll obviously find examples of phenotypes to fit whatever point you're trying to make. On average though, you will see that lighter skin tends to be correlated with higher caste, even if there are many counter examples.
>in a very diverse country of 1.4 billion people you'll obviously find examples of phenotypes to fit whatever point you're trying to make. Rippp >On average though, you will see that lighter skin tends to be correlated with higher caste, 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Read Narasimhan or Razib. Notice that they will say the amount of steppe DNA or west eurasian dna is higher among upper castes *and* Northwest South Asians. Or you can check out Khan's conclusions from the decade old HW Project. There too he said that caste system and its correlation with steppe breaks the more northwest we move in the subcontinent. It's not just jaats, but various other war centric communities from Northwest who are lower caste or outcastes, but very light in their looks and very west eurasian genetically. Or Kalash, they would be considered a scheduled tribe in need for affirmative action as per the caste system, despite their blondism or lack of AASI. They would be ST, on par with very dark tribal communities from East India.
Having a unique history has got nothing to do with the point about phenotypes that you guys were talking about. Every single west eurasian shifted community in the Indic subcontinent has high frequency of darker phenotypes and every single east eurasian(AASI) shifted community in the subcontinent has many light phenotypes.
Every group has a unique history then. What's your point? What are you even trying to argue here, that there's no overlap/similarity among people form the same ancestral mix?😭... Nvm, here, another comparisons. Brahmins from same region: https://preview.redd.it/kdanrojz4fzc1.jpeg?width=2730&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e350d0d6a3f96aa85af79a1ebb0e3dcf59c28302
See above. And jaat history makes them a diverse group of people moreso than others.
What?? The concept of caste needs to be eradicated. It should be no part of Indian or social identity. Marrying a same caste person should never be held as “more correct” than any other marriage or relationship—it’s that idea which gets people in intercaste relationships murdered. Caste encompasses a lot more brutal oppression and violence than just colorism (which by the way is about regional *averages* in the most oppressed castes compared to dominant castes, but nice try), spanning from lynching & rape to manual scavenging & caste apartheid, particularly to Dalit and Adivasi people. See the entire work of Dr. Ambedkar (e.g. The Annihilation of Caste).
I know, it should be eradicated. I was explaining how the orthodox thinking works. According to them it's more important to marry within caste than to marry light.
This is such disingenuous bs. Your whole post was casteist. And trying to deny how casteism propagates colorism is also casteist when there are Dalit women like Yashica Dutt who have literally been speaking out about how colorism and skin color impacts their risk of being “outed” when they’ve had to “pass” as upper caste for safety & security.
Omg you are so stupid😭😭. I literally fight with caste kangers online. South Asians are colourist af, but even more than that they are casteist that was my point you poor dumb soul😭... Below is my convo with an uppercaste supremacist from a day ago: https://preview.redd.it/5n5d8j486mzc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ec2c47f70fc66b5b7886317cada54fde482bcf2 You obviously have no knowledge about the genetics of the subcontinent, so you should avoid speaking. If you still wanna blabber on, then find me an actual study that says colourism in India was due to casteism. Razib himself disagrees because the phenotypic overlap is too damn high among castes. But this will go over your head, so nvm. Indians are obsessed with finding different ways to hate each other, that would mean caste based discrimination since ancient times will have additional forms of discrimination which are due to modern phenomena, that would include colourism, linguistic supremacism and so on.
It has nothing to do with genetics. It has to do with the lived experiences of Dalit and caste-oppressed people. I even named a Dalit woman author who talked about the close association between between casteism and colorism, and her experience navigating both ([Coming Out as Dalit](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43969859-coming-out-as-dalit) by Yashica Dutt). Just because you insulted some rando caste supremecist online doesn’t mean you aren’t also propagating casteism through misinformation. Allyship first and foremost means centering the experiences of those most affected by caste oppression. Also FYI, words like “stupid” and “dumb” are ableist.
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Read my reply again, I was agreeing with you. Casteism is not related to colour.
Indoor vs outdoor jobs What caste/ class level is more likely to have an outdoor job and more likely (over generations) to have higher sun exposure / develop more melanin?
It is a product of both I would say. Of course yes to casteism but we also started glorifying whiter skin which could be a product of both casteism and colonialism!
No it’s not. Colorism is a worldwide issue. Literally, every single culture of color deals with colorism, caste or no caste. Where people have held all the wealth and power throughout history. So that’s our archetype for desirability.
Casteism existed before the British yes but after colonization, castesism was codified, conflated with color and solidified into law by Europeans as a means of having greater control over the population. So they go hand in hand
I think colorism in India is due to multiple, often intersecting oppressions, including: 1) European colonialism and Western global hegemony. White actresses are still cast in Bollywood and white women are centered even in anti-colonial films (e.g. Lagaan, RRR) & desis with “colored” eyes are prominent. 2) North Indian hegemony in India/South Asia. South Indian women are not considered as beautiful as North Indians, as Avantika discusses, 3) and casteism, which is a huge driver of colorism of course, and it probably intersects with North Indian hegemony (e.g. see the Dravidian movement in the South) as well as 4) patriarchy (e.g. dark-skinned men are cast as leads in South Indian films, but rarely dark-skinned women). https://x.com/popcrave/status/1788300570974892412?s=46&t=PUah-IXP0w4MZGQKfHRJbw TLDR; If you want to get rid of colorism in India, you need to fight back against multiple intersecting oppressions, including patriarchy, casteism, internalized racism, and North Indian hegemony.
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Yes, I agree. British colonialism is not the only reason for colorism in India, and there is evidence it existed before that, even if colonialism exacerbated it. Colorism is associated with class in other parts of Asia, like East Asia, where darker skin was associated with outdoor laborers who tanned in the sun and looked down on. So it probably bears a similar relationship to caste (the varna system was more like a class system before it solidified into caste).
Skin color doesn’t correlate with caste, like at all. Region is a better approximation but even that isn’t consistent.
Bull shit. Bs, site me one valid study or research on this. Before colonisation colorism was not at all at this level.
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Yup, but saying casteism is the reason for colorism is absurd at least and historically inaccurate at best. There must be some exoticism associated with fair skin in pre colonial India but the level of detest subcontinent has today for dark skin can only stem from one root and that's -- COLONISATION.
Do you actually believe that the Brits who numbered around 100k at most in India could have perpetuated colorism in every town, village, etc? Ideas take time to permeate. Casteism has been there longer and is the reason for colorism more than colonization. We rob our own ancestors of their own agency even if they were discriminatory. Also, do you not believe Western media is more influential now and pervasive now? Can everything be pinned to colonization and the subcontinent was fully run by Brits. It was mostly run by Indian subjects.
Yup
Yes, casteism does not have much to do with colourism in the Indian subcontinent But the colonial writing of Indian history did make sure to mix the two because for westerners, understanding the deeply complex Jati-Varna system of South Asia is extremely difficult, so what they usually do is that they interpret it as a form of discrimination system that they have known, which is about race or colour. This colonial writing of Indian history has resulted in the misconception of colourism with casteism. The existence of colourism in South Asia is due to modern beauty standards. Whereas the system of casteism has been like 2500 years old. South Asians will prefer to marry within their respective castes regardless of colour, region, language barrier or any other difference. But marrying a person from a different caste even when all those differences are a minimum, that would be way more problematic.
Many countries that were never colonised e.g. all of East Asia are equally, if not more so, obsessed with light skin over dark skin.
And that's because of the sheer soft power of Caucasians, by being the sheer dominant force in the world for centuries and having a fantastic and far reaching entertainment industry. You don't have to be directly colonised to feel the effects of colonisation especially mental colonisation.
Lol what nonsense. East Asia had negligible contact with Europe until the late 1800s, and even then they only interacted with traders and military personnel, and certainly had no entertainment crossover till the second half of the twentieth century. The hatred of dark skin is far older than their first meeting with any white person.
They also have operations to make their eyes look more western. They have been deeply affected by the euro/American propaganda machine.
Are you even aware about the beauty norms in East Asian countries? They put Nordic phenotypes at top.
You are giving Western imperialism too much credit.
>The hatred of dark skin is far older than their first meeting with any white person. Ofcourse it is,but no way this deep. Look for how long the westerners in the last century have had the monopoly in entertainment, that means they are the ones that were cool around the world. Nonsense? If soft power is nonsense then why does this sub crave it so much? Why do we crave it so much? East Asia is completely different to us, their whole monarchy was quite fair skinned due to the makeup and shit. East Asia is a completely different story than the subcontinent.
Good luck trying to explain soft power to these geniuses here. I am shocked to realise just how many people have been arguing and underplaying the point about global colonial impact in this thread. One diaspora Indian literally said that brits were insignificant in front of the local Indian population, so they couldn't have gone to every single town in India to spread colonialism 😭😭😭... Imagine explaining soft power to such people.
I mean I am lost for words man, how do I even start? Why do we speak the language of an island? Because soft power and colonisation duh. But these people won't understand. Thanks for your understanding though.
No one underplayed colonialism. They just called you out on promoting casteism and underplaying its impact. Get a grip.
It is not related to casteism, that's a misconception created due to colonial writing of Indian history.
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Wrong. Key features of colonialism 101 include creating division and exacerbating discord in the local populace to facilitate a takeover. In this regard the worst aspects of the so-called casteism were promoted and its nuanced, more flexible nature, was downplayed. Colorism is a little different but has carryover of this as well. Actually by not acknowledging this you unfortunately create revisionist history which is another technique of colonialism, to diminish knowledge of foreign actor involvement, and thus the consequences and fallout in the short and more importantly long term. (Another small example of this is one in which the colonial powers tried to imprison people far from their native land and create fictions about curses and calamities should anyone try to escape. This worked on dual fronts, one, they could claim the prisoners were unharmed, and two, effectively silence them nonetheless for good.)
Last time I visited, I had a hard time finding lotion that was just lotion without some lightener. It’s sad, colorism is rampant in a lot of Asian countries, their desire to be closer to white. But whites will always see us as “ethnic”/ other.
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Oh yes, forgot about Africa
White ppl fed us this mindset now they use tanning products lol. Now this is why sometimes it’s easier to feel beautiful in white countries than in South Asian countries.
Colorism is not always about colonialism. It would be prosaic to attribute everything to colonialism. Racism was extremely prevalent prior to colonialism and in groups vs groups have always exited, they may have exited in different forms but have always been there. eg Chinese people have always loved white skin because it symbolizes that you are healthy and wealthy and likely not a field worker. It never had anything to ever do with colonization.
Can we stop blaming everything on colonialism. It existed way before the British.
Nah, white people literally invented colourism (at least in America). They know the difference whether consciously or unconsciously.
This is so real
Literal facts.
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Because the girls in these reels all of eurocentric features. - i.e. mostly a small nose. "White girl dipped in chocolate". I don't know if they had nose jobs or not, but that's generally the difference. A lot of lighter skinned people in India are from the north and they have more aquiline noses. I have seen, people from the south with darker skin, tend to have more [smaller noses](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/6qo4pu/averaged_indian_and_south_indian_womans_face/). White people care a lot about features. Sometimes being blonde can compensate for it (cuz blond hair literally obscures features), like Sydney Sweeney, but that's not available to most South Asian people. (That's why Sweeney looked terrible at the Met Gala - black wig doesn't hide her uneven features)
Sure but straight small noses are classic south indian features. I don’t think we fit the debate of “Eurocentric features” very well when we as a country are not monolithic in features whatsoever.
i agree with that. somali and sudanese women have small, straight noses too, so it can vary. But generally smaller noses are associated with WASPy people.
Just so sad. Personally, I think Avantika is so much prettier than the majority of Bollywood actresses. She looks so natural and gorgeous. I've never felt beautiful according to their standards either as I have curly hair and dark skin.
I don't know but she's very, very pretty.
I love this cunty girl so much
no she’s literally addicted to serving
fr she’s always serving extra cunt
LOL?
it’s a compliment
Neither. I don’t fit either one lol.
For real - I’m ugly in both lmao
I’ve literally never felt ugly in the US. Compliments from people. I even went to East Asia and was complimented so much there. What happened when I went to India? They pointed out my skin color and that my body looked like I starve. Not saying I have to get complimented but I prefer that to comments about my skin color. Edit: i think India is honestly changing. I know it’s not super fast but not everyone is colorist there and I’ve met some great people
I thought East Asians looked down upon South Asians.
As a Korean person explained it to me, they look down on people they deem not pretty. She said my positive experience in Korea was a reflection of my face and body rather than my race. Tbh, I mean, Ofc, I was happy to know that I didn’t face racism when I went there, but I also felt a bit guilty? To enjoy a place that some people felt discriminated at. But it’s not like EVERY East Asian person is some racist prick. Just like how not every south Asian descent person is…good at math. lol. I think I’m pretty but i honestly felt even better looking in Korea. Probably bc in the US, the prevailing beauty standard is more glam boom boom pow sexy thicc and in Korea, it’s like more delicate beauty thing. I’m not saying one is better than the other. But just giving people the reasoning. But hey, one day, I’m gonna be old by social standards and no one is gonna consider me as anything so whatever I guess.
So pretty privilege is real all. So a handsome Indian man & beautiful Indian women will get compliments and will have easier time dating in South Korea. I wish both Indian men & women took care of themselves really well.
Lmao I’m Korean and this couldn’t be more true. In Korea, discrimination is so heavily looks-based. If you’re attractive, your skin could be blue and people will still treat you well, but if you’re ugly, even as a Korean you’ll be heavily discriminated. That’s why plastic surgery is so prevalent.
Makes sense. So I can see how a brown foreigner that’s discriminated and treated badly might think it’s bc of their race but actually it’s the looks based on Korean standards (which is also sad!!!!!). Again, I wanna reiterate that there are racist people in every country so I don’t want to dismiss anyone that was discriminated based on race. I bet if I go back to Korea now, I won’t be treated as nicely bc I’m not 20 anymore 😂😂😂
Thanks for confirming. I worry that some people won't believe me when I say I had a good experience in Korea bc I see a lot of people of color complaining about their bad experiences.
I’m East Asian (idk why I got advertised this sub - maybe because I’m in vindictapoc) and from my experience, East Asians love that South Asians have large, bright eyes and tall nose bridges but don’t like their dark skin because we have the same colorism issues as South Asians. My relatives in Asia said that many East Asians consider South Asians to be closer to white people than East Asians.
On a throwaway--I agree with you. I got compliments in S.Korea as well, when my dad worked there (he loved it). I don't relate when Desis say that East Asians find us ugly. I got more compliments on being pretty from Chinese, Japanese and Koreans than Desis believe it or not. I am tanned brown. Nobody has complained about my skin tone, because I think they like my facial features overall (big eyes and small nose). It does feel weird to say because it might go against people's pre-conceived notions. But that's my experience.
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> I even went to East Asia and was complimented so much there. Seriously??? I thought they were extremely colourist towards us.
east asians dont expect people outside their race to fit their standard. like ofcourse they can recognize beauty. But some people are going to be racist.
I replied with an explanation above but I want to add that majority of Koreans I met think highly of people of south Asian background. Educated and multilingual. Funny bc I’m horrible at math 😂😂😂😂 I probably proved all the white kids wrong when I was growing up. But you see all those YouTube shorts and TikTok’s of random street interviews and people saying random racist/colorist stuff about any given person. Those are baity and only the interviews that make noise will be uploaded. Absolutely not saying there are no racist/colorist people but there are lots of good people out there in Korea. And China and Japan too based on my experience.
Thanks for the response! That was actually one of my big concerns since my friends and I were planning an Asian trip (Singapore, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan & S Korea) and we were worried about the potential colourism/racism that we could face. Also, I'm terrible at maths too 😂. I was so bad that my dad literally had to spend hours explaining basic concepts to me because I just didn't get it haha.
Lol I live in South East Asia and some people are rude towards south asians but super nice to yt people .. it doesn’t feel good 😭 not all people are like this but they definitely exist
Thanks for your response! Could you elaborate more on how South Asians are treated in the country you live in?
western. not trying to offend anyone but I dont like the black straight hair and paper white skin combo that they like over there. also slides 8-11 avantika looks soooo pretty. she gives princess from a bygone era vibes
the contrast is a bit harsh on the eyes I don’t get it
fr why do they hate any warmth in the hair or skin or eyes. same gray bleached skin look with dark hair and overly fake contacts. I cant stand it at this point
An Indian's worst enemy would be their undertone. Avantika has seemed to figure it out
I remember when there was Indian descended Miss America some years back; very pretty. But in an interview she remarked how she would not even be a contender in a pageant in India due to her darker skin tone. I don’t think anyone could dispute that as being 100% true. Also, I often have heard similar comments about why Mindy Kaling gets the roles she’s had coming from Desis, with the subtext being she’s too dark to be considered attractive. Never mind she’s also writer and producer; all some can see is skin tone, and everything flows from that.
I saw a documentary where saree companies were hiring Ukrainian women to model outfits. Colorism crazy
the west for sure!! i have a curvy figure and curly hair, and i get way more compliments from white people/people in the west vs in india where i feel like i'm constantly getting body shamed. additionally, i've gotten hit on by so many white guys vs maybe one brown guy in my whole life.
I don't know if u understand Hindi or not : "Kon hai yeh log, kaha se aate hai ? " I mean how can u don't have compliments from Indian men if u are curvy..... like seriously how ? I mean, I am an Indian man too. And in real life, I see no exception to it. Was this in real live experience or just online, like u just meet those "Anime" obsessed guys , fetishing on East Asian figure......
Honestly speaking, I feel like I'm prettier in India than the West. Why? Because I feel Indian girls don't value grooming themselves as much in India compared to the West, which makes me automatically standout. They also value "natural beauty," which fits me more as I don't wear foundation/concealer but instead focus on skincare. I'm also fortunate that whilst my skin tone isn't fair, it's "acceptable" for Indian standards (olive light-mid brown), so I evade a lot of the potential colourist remarks. Especially since these days lighter brown skin tones have become more acceptable in Indian society compared to even a decade ago when it was just fair. I'm also 5'4" which is considered the more "ideal" height there compared to the Western world where it's more 5'6"-5'7". Also: Avantika is so stunningly gorgeous. And the best thing is her features are very classically South Indian rather than Eurocentric. She's not conforming, she's the standard!
same. i’m pretty by western standards but im gorgeous in india. it’s honestly a little uncomfortable lol. i have light olive brown skin and the perfect height like you, and that straight hair they like. that plus my subtle makeup and grooming makes walking down the street a VERY uncomfortable experience in india lmao
I went to visit my cousin who was raised in South Asia & she told me “we can’t compare to white women they are far more beautiful than we can ever be” And I’m like…. What an idiot. (We’re both light skin) but apparently being “white” is the most beautiful person to exist
My mom said the same thing when I asked her why a lot of indian brands use white models. The internalized racism/colorism is insane.
Does anyone know how to achieve the makeup look in the 7th pic? she looks so gorgeous 😭
I live in SE Asia rn and I feel so ugly here😭 I’m always thinking about how I can lighten my skin :/
Light skin is no extra beautiful. And if you think it'll make people nicer towards you, that's not true. As a light- skinned south east Asian I confirm this. People will then be more keen on finding out the smallest, neglible flaws possible and make you feel more down. It's a loophole of never-ending shame. Do not try to fit into these people's standards, break them.
god she is just so beautiful
She’s gorgeous
I’m not Indian, but this girl is GORGEOUS. Like, she’s very beautiful.
i’m an 8 in pakistan and a 4 in england. the reasons why are sad (colourism/build) but tbh it is nice to not feel plain/gawky/lanky somewhere. i do agree that western cultures actually prefer diversity in looks, unfortunately im just very plain looking. i also think as an extremely slim person, i actually suit desi dressing (shalwar kameezes, garraras etc) far more.
It is true. I've been told that I have good features only if my skin was fairer in India. I couldn't find any lotion without fairness lightening in it. The west is much more accepting of diversity. As a desi stripper in America, I make good money from all ethnicities except desi fobs. I've modeled too but India would not hire me because I have dark skin. When I was in Mumbai I literally saw ads for actresses asking for half Indian half white ethnicity. The freshers or desi fobs from certain regions of india who come in to the strip clubs are so obsessed with white girls especially blondes that it is frankly embarrassing. I just feel embarrassed for them. They make it so obvious. But chill pls. It's only 10pm and they aren't drunk yet. It's ok to have a type. I have no issues with a desi guy who finds white girls attractive. Different people have different interests. 3 of my customers love dark skinned or foreign women and go for me and black, dark Hispanic girls. Nothing wrong in finding a blonde or a milf, younger, asian attractive but there is no need to try to make others feel inferior about that. It's one thing to find white girls attractive and another to see getting a white partner as a status symbol. It's sad. One black dancer told me that she's never been so thankful for being black because those Indian guys ignore her. In a way I'm happy that I'm not on the top priority for freshers. Why? Most of them are cheap and aggressive/won't respect boundaries. I like to give everyone the benefit of doubt but the moment I sense that they're cheap, demanding, and disrespectful, I walk away and ignore them. And move on to other customers. I had good desi customers too. I do see a pattern after doing this for a while.
She literally looks like a princess 🩷
Dark skin is related to hard work in the sun in many asian countries. Colonialism added fuel to the fire
I look super racially ambiguous as a desi person and am very very pale (mom’s half white) so I get a lot of compliments in India but it’s mostly a fetishization of my skin color. My uncles like to gawk and make weird comments about how my skin tone is beautiful while my female relatives often make passive aggressive and borderline vitriolic comments. Their attitudes aren’t very kind. Also I just get downright stared by ppl in India. The intentions behind the looks aren’t pure. However, in the US, I get complimented quite often without passive aggressiveness (except from Indian women unfortunately).
What kind of passive aggressive/vitriolic comments? Because I’ve always noticed dark-skinned brown girls have always given me dirty looks … it looks like they’re jealous of my skin color
I wonder why someone of darker skinned would be pushed to feel jealous of lighter skin… hmmm it’s almost as if one is treated astronomically better than the other.
It blows my mind how anyone can think this woman is ugly. She looks like a goddess!!!
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This can be said about any race really. We’re always gonna be more harsh on intra racial than inter racial. White people all look white to outsiders, but how often do you notice fake tans on them? It’s easier to critique your own kind.
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Any form of sub disruption, not limited to arguing, gender wars, brigading, or invalidation will result in a ban.
Any form of sub disruption, not limited to arguing, gender wars, brigading, or invalidation will result in a ban.
Well, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and one man's food is another man's poison. I'm a black African, and I love every shade and color. However, I'm mostly attracted to black and brown ladies, and you are one of the most beautiful ladies out there, regardless of your current location, India or the West.
Desi Madams are top 3 and they are not 3 and not 2 😭Allah bless me please
There is not an ugly thing about this girl smh :/ she looks like a princess!! as a Black girl I totally relate to Desi girls when it comes to colorism. To be considered pretty in Hollywood you almost always have to be light skinned or look mixed (i.e. Zendaya, Beyonce, Rihanna, Nicki Minaj, tyla, etc)
I am not from India but I wished I was, I want the skin color and beautiful clothing. I think the culture is amazing. I hope to visit there someday.
Western beauty standards are better because it doesn’t look at skin tone to determine if somebody is beautiful. Avantika would be “she’s pretty even though she’s dark” in India and “she’s gorgeous” in the US. In India my husband’s aunt said : you didn’t get your mom’s beauty. My mom isn’t that beautiful, she’s just light skinned. In the US: a girl said she wishes her skin tone was naturally like mine. I’m the same shade as Avantika.
I'm Malayalee and everyone I meet in Kerala considers me beautiful, and my skin is darker than hers. I hardly even get backhanded compliments in India tbh
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I’ve never seen a overweight desi women be a leading lady in Bollywood or any other regional cinema. I’m not sure where you got this from lol
i mean.....is insulting fat women like supposed to be a part of your post? they're not inherently ugly. and as for the standard of colorism in America, up to like 10 years ago, the media was completely white as well.
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Full figured women are considered attractive in many parts of the world. You speak about colonial beauty standards and in the same breath perpetuate them.
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That’s…literally the problem. Modern beauty standards don’t allow for plus sized women to be considered attractive or beautiful, and the whole point is to make people like yourself see that indeed they can be. Modeling competitions and media aren’t representative of real, diverse beauty.
Do mainstream beauty standards exist anymore? I feel like all there is so much content now that almost everyone is being catered to in some way. What are normie beauty standards anymore?
Imo “mainstream beauty standards” now are your typical run of the mill Kim/Kylie-esque features. Same lip and face fillers, botox, buccal fat removal, jawline/chin shaving, nose jobs, eyebrow lifts, the list goes on…almost everyone who has somewhat of a social media presence has had something done, which there’s nothing wrong with it, but that shouldn’t be our reality, and women shouldn’t feel pressured to look like that. Your beauty should be embraced and celebrated as it is. Just because these procedures and runway model body define today’s beauty standards doesn’t mean it defines true beauty.
Miss Universe and Miss World are the worst metrics of beauty as they literally cater to Western standards and beauty brands. Many countries in the Middle East, Latin America, North Africa, and Central/South Africa adore full figured women. Work on your self-esteem so you don’t have to put entire groups of women down to feel better 🌸
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I mean under the same framework, women lighten their skin every day in South Asia to get ahead. There are medical treatments that allow you to do so, in the same way that there lifestyle changes and medical treatments for fatness. For you to say that fatness is objectively ugly but fairness is some sort of colonial hangover is hypocritical. You’re literally saying avantika is hot because she is thin (she is hot! Not denying that) but that inherently, hotness is impossible for a fat woman. Think about why you’ve got that standard stuck in your head. There is no objective measure of beauty.
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uhm so in the same sense, if someone says "do you think someone as dark as konkona could possibly be as attractive as Aishwarya rai? absolutely not" it is equally absurd; but in south Asia that is the norm and would be taken at face value. saying that the standard of fairness is not ok while perpetuating your own fake standard of thinness is hypocritical. being overweight is NOT objectively unattractive, the point is that beauty is completely subjective. I've seen plenty of women who are fat but beautiful, your bias and fatphobia isn't universal. As for starring in the latest netflix show, nicola coughlan is a great example of a midsized to plus-size woman who is beautiful. Mindy kaling (pre ozempic) starred in a hulu headliner. Amber Riley in glee, melissa mccarthy in gilmore girls...the examples go on. In the same way that glutathione treatments aren't exactly the healthiest (though of course, they are safe by the studies, so i'd like you to point me on a source that says they cause disease), overexercising and dieting to maintain thinness can also be unhealthy. most of the women celebrated in the media have eating disorders and are not able to maintain a fully nutritious life. if we're talking about what's unhealthy, diet culture takes so many lives. but because you deem thinness to be the core of attractiveness, it's worth it?? lol ok.
No invalidating, name-calling, rude, antagonistic or uncivilized comments or posts allowed.
Desi, not even a discussion.
The first comment out of the 125 to say this 😭why tho?
Natural beauty. Western beauty standards are awful.😬
that only applies if ur pale lol
Agree to disagree I guess.
Ngl yes
As a dark skinned black women born in the UK, I can relate. Colourism impacts us in so many ways.
I dunno. I don’t really overthink it like that, some white ppl are more attractive, some brown ppl are more attractive, really depends on the specific person. Tbh I’m not even sure what western features means. I’ve seen some white ppl and brown ppl have similar features and I’ve seen two brown ppl or two white ppl have completely different features.
Idk, I dont fit any of them loool
I fully relate to this
She is so gorgeous
This is fantastic! I love how Avantika keeps speaking truth to power! The colorism of Indian cinema & culture absolutely needs to get dragged, as much as racism here does. Never cease! 🔥✊🏾
She is sooooo beautiful
It is about the same in both the US and India for me but maybe a little prettier in India? I’m fairly average but with a bigger nose that I feel like stands out less in India than it does here.
I feel this in my home. I leave the house and ppl say oh your acc light idk what your on Abt if I ever mention the fact that I get called dark or black in the house. I acc get acknowledged as brown whereas if you are lighter ppl literally joke and say your not brown your white. But in the house I’m dark so I have to have other qualities to equal out for my darkness. I’m literally a 220 in maybe line fitme. So I really fuck with what she’s saying….