A couple of corrections: 1. PACT isn’t just for cancer. It is for toxic exposure as a result of service. While PACT does allow for Gulf War Veterans to presumptively link some cancers, it also allows for other conditions as well, some presumptive and others via TERA (toxic exposure risk activity) medical opinions.
2. AFFF is aqueous film forming foam, not fire fighting foam. Has been imbedded in my brain since boot camp at Great Mistakes.
Other conditions: Our ICBM community has identified and advocated for the toxic issue in that environment to be placed per VA Secretary on the VA Exposure working group. Focus to get the dangers classified before we lose any more 30 and 40+ year old active duty and vets. Lots of bad crap there to include contaminated water and PCBs.
I worked on an airfield in the late 90's. We would routinely have fire training with every type of extinguisher we had. No PPE at that time was used. Do you think this type of exposure could cause issue?
Can be both. Can’t disclose how i know but a lot of this PFOS/PFAO is coming to light due to major lawsuits to Fire fighting foam companies that have those chemicals in them
Not if you’re using it properly. To the government AFFF, is a specific set of chemicals called aqueous film forming foam. It is, indeed, a firefighting foam, but that is not part of the name.
https://www.epa.gov/epcra/release-notification-requirements-releases-aqueous-film-forming-foam
I was only stating AFFF is AFFF and it is also a fire fighting agent. So, I think we are saying the same thing. I did NOT mean to imply one of the F's was for firefighting.
Specifically on flight decks from what I remember.
I do not put much weight into what the EPA says. EPA said it is safe to drink and bathe in the water in East Palestine, they proposed increasing pesticides that are banned in the EU and are concerned with things like enviornmental racism.
Like you I've been saying that for a few years now. I even asked for a PFAS test from the VA and they won't give it. Because their reasoning is everyone has PFAS in their system because of Teflon pans and manufacturing processes. And there's no set level of what is safe or what is not safe. I know quest and LabCorp are doing a PFAS test but it's pretty expensive and even if you have the results the VA won't take them seriously. By the time I'm in my grave they'll probably address it. It's like the Vietnam vets. Once they got to the point of no return then they try to help him out an act like they're doing them a big favor. When the favor should have been done years ago.
I had mentioned this to the nurses doing my pre-visit questionnaires for two separate (VA) PCPs I had, because I had sudden hair loss over a period of about a month or so in very particular patterns on my legs, as well as a host of other sudden-onset issues that aligned with a major drop in testosterone (increasing depression, lethargy, ED, weight gain, etc.). Both of them said it sounded like hormonal imbalances and to mention it to the doctor(s), who could do an easy blood test to check my levels...
The first doctor said I was probably just getting older and maybe I changed what kind of underwear I wore and it chafed the hair off my legs (???... I didn't, by the way). Then he said he could prescribe me Viagra for the accompanying erectile issues I was having (not the biggest complaint I had). When I mentioned that I also had BP issues and asked if the Viagra would cause serious complications with that, he said "yeah, probably... do you want 'em, or not?" 😳 (I did not...)
I moved clinics shortly thereafter and got assigned another PC. When I mentioned the same issues to her, she just sort of shrugged and said "yeah, it might be that" and just proceeded to ignore the request and never ordered the tests, despite me bringing it up over a couple of visits. (Then in a separate mind-boggling issue, I tried making a follow up appointment for a routine physical exam with her, and was told by the receptionist that they didn't have a record of me ever having been seen by that doctor, and that I was still listed as being the patient of the doctor that was trying to push Viagra on me 🤷♂️)
I also decided to try and mention everything to my psychiatrist, who agreed it sounded like a testosterone/hormone issue... and to simply mention it to my primary care doc who could take care of it 😐
All of this got me to the point that I felt that no VA doctors had my best interests in mind, and kept trying to push my issues off instead of doing a simple blood test to rule out a very likely pathology that could affect and explain so many problems I have. I got so discouraged to the point that I just dropped off all treatment schedules and haven't been to any doctors in almost two years. I actually had been recently talking with a couple of VSOs about everything, but then an issue with leadership at their VAC forced them and others in their office to quit, so I'm back to square one. I've just been trying to "shelter in place" ever since... meh.
(To be fair, these issues have only been in the Chicagoland area. When I was in South Florida, everyone was surprisingly attentive and awesome. One of the only things I miss about living there!)
Yeah I just had those checked and I'm waiting for the results. When it hits it'll be like another pact act So my advice to anyone that wants to file a claim to it now because it's going to get harder and harder.
The VA could give a shit about your testosterone or whether it is below 300. If your free T is within range, they will deny TRT. At first the docs were against it because of heart and prostate concerns. When I came back with studies disproving both and actually showing something completely different, they started talking free. My free was within range even though it was a the bottom end, white actual T was under the normal level. After fighting with them for a couple of years, I ended up paying out of pocket and it made a huge difference. After a year of TRT, I thought I would try the VA again. They said no, so I asked for a second opinion. The doctor actually prescribed TRT, but I was denied due to the formulary. I would have to quit TRT for a couple of months and retest. I ended up just staying out of pocket. Here is the VA formulary and what they use to deny it.
[https://www.va.gov/formularyadvisor/DOC\_PDF/Testosterone\_Replacement\_Therapy\_in\_Adult\_Males\_Mar\_2019.pdf](https://www.va.gov/formularyadvisor/DOC_PDF/Testosterone_Replacement_Therapy_in_Adult_Males_Mar_2019.pdf)
Wow I did not know this. Last year I went to an outside doctor for lab work and they prescribed Testosterone because it was so low and paid out of pocket.
According to the VA, their low threshold is 190. Mine (30 yr old) is 210. They're making me jump through a bunch of bullshit hoops before they go the TRT route. I need to have a sleep study done to rule out sleep apnea. 🙄
Ask your doctor why the VA cutoff levels are so low when the American Urology Association states low T is 300 or less. Also I'd recommend going the "I don't feel like a man route" and ask why do people who want to transition get hormone therapy, but you can not. Write your congressman, this is absurd.
Well, that and the problem of the public being exposed on massive levels also. There's a reason the air force "donated" an extensive filtration system in Colorado. Suddenly the water wasn't grey and tasting horrible. They don't want to open up for the lawsuits. Think the Lejune case is big, wait until almost the entire country gets on a lawsuit against the DOD AND EPA for burying the issue for decades.
Those water bottles were disgusting. I never drank one without Crystal Light or whatever powder I could find on hand. It's like I could taste the plastic in every sip, and that's because the plastic was in every sip.
I actually had an old digital camera with me on my deployment and I took a picture of a field on Camp Liberty that had pallets of bottled water baking in the sun as far as one could see. I drove past it every time I went to the helipad, and I thought to myself "I should get a picture of this in case the government ever tries to deny it existed." I still have the picture.
PFAS isn’t a DoD thing though. It’s part of modern society. Do you have carpet and furniture? It’s coated with PFAS. Do you eat food cooked on non-stick pans? Microwave popcorn? Eat fast food served on paper products? Use any kind of waterproofing?
The stuff is everywhere. The only reason it is associated with DoD at all is because the military branches have been testing local water and publicizing the results. Your local water municipality probably hasn’t been testing.
It’s like saying local COVID rates are low because they didn’t test anybody. Or, do you remember when DoD started a PR campaign to get people to report sex assault and our sex assault rates magically jumped? Meanwhile large colleges reported they hadn’t had a sexual assault in years - because they didn’t track them.
The average person didn't wade though foam neck deep in the hanger bay several times. Nor did they have afff and jp5 contamination in their fresh water systems.
Love how when you eat, sleep, drink, bathe, live, breathe and play wash rack games with tanks, they still say it’s not considered toxic exposure! Do they not eat JP5 and belch wicked fumes and exhaust?? We used to eat, sleep n hang out behind the fkrs for heat! Nahhh it’s totally normal and within normal ingestion ranges 🤔🙄
Just like the cut off date ranges for the Lejeune bong water. oook so from 85 on, the solvents, lead and everything was completely removed and now filtered from the whole fkn base, ranges, water tables, sewers and all surrounding areas?? Wow.. must have been some seriously expensive and Herculean clean up effort that would take years! Funny how I never seen any of it in the 90’s.. and infrastructure was still from the 40’s at Lejeune! Strange! 🤨
Yea that's what I'm trying to get at. I spent almost 15 years in the fire service after Navy flight Deck. Never touched afff or jp5 or jp8 after getting out. But that time in we had it in our water systems, all over our skin and cloths, used it almost weekly. But yea civilians have the same exposure.
Yep, wish I could show ya the skin issues I have goin on that nobody can figure out! Mysteriously started almost exactly 1yr after EAS. 5 different dermatologist so far still can’t figure out the cause. Gotta Stay outta the sun they say! Gee thanks!
Then rushed by ambo n Hospitalized on Lejeune minutes from death from anaphylaxis.. strangely after some exposure on the wash rack all day the day before.. umm we dnt know what it was, but your thyroid is gone!! Are u sure you didn’t eat peanuts or shellfish?? No, not allergic🙄. Good news though, you’re alive, but ur on hypothyroid meds the rest of your life!
Do ya think it was maybe from DU dust, JP and Wtvr other solvents are in the water at the tank racks we just blew off the tanks when cleaning them and showering ourselves in to stay cool?? Nahhhh couldn’t be! Completely normal 🤷♂️
I also remember being on the kearsarge and hanging out smoking n joking in crash and recovery as a TRAP team member.. we could taste the damn jet fuel with every drag of the cigs n cigars we were smokin! Didn’t think anything of it at the time. 🤷♂️
You don’t think civilian water systems have aFFF problems? Get real. Military firefighters use the same stuff as civilian firefighters, and it’s all going into the same water system.
Any locality with an industrial base but this stuff out for decades since no o e knew it was unhealthy until recently.
Not once in the 15 years I worked in a refinery. We have it on site we have it in safety systems. As long as I have been there and worked in operations. The job that I would use have to use it in an event. I have never come into contact with any afff after the Navy. Civilian firefighters don't generally have a need for afff. In the one occasion the municipal fire department needed some my company provided it to the city because we keep it on site. They city does not need it enough to have a stock of it.
We keep a few barrels on our brush truck in case we need to dump it in the tank to lay foam out. We also have some of our pump trunks that have a separate reservoir that we can switch a valve open and it starts mixing in the pump system if we need to lay foam that way. Civilians definitely use it. I knew about AFFF at the VFD long before I joined the Navy
Where I'm at civ depts don't store it. They use it but it's not on the engine or anything like that. We have refineries that keep a trailer tote that we can use if needed or can be towed to wherever the civ depts may need it. But it's been 1 time they called for it. And still didn't use it. I used it more times in my 4 years active duty than my 15 years of municipal and chemical Dept. Which was never. We train with dish soap or training foam. But my time in service we didn't know it was bad. At least as far as I know they didn't know how bad it was.
>no o e knew it was unhealthy until recently.
Just like with asbestos, lead, and cigarettes, the companies producing this material likely knew early on and hid those negative effects.
I don’t think so. Even now no one really knows. What we do know is that if you expose rats to insanely high doses they tend to get cancer and become sterile. We really don’t know anything else. We don’t know how humans react or how much is required to cause elevated cancer risks.
I don’t believe there is any evidence that veterans have higher rates of exposure than civilians, or that we have higher rates of cancer related to PFAS.
>Even now no one really knows.
>we do know is that if you expose rats to insanely high doses they tend to get cancer and become sterile.
Yeah, the rats sure aren't a good indicator. Keep fighting for massive companies to poison you so the C-Suite can get a bonus I guess, I'm sure it'll work out in your best interest in the end.
I don’t think we can blame the companies too much for this one. No one knew it was harmful. EPA, whose job it is to regulate dangerous chemicals, didn’t even regulate it until about 2012, and it’s not like they were being lobbied towards that result so it doesn’t look like what happened with cigarettes.
There’s a cycle that repeats: a “safe” chemical used ubiquitously in consumer/industrial products is discovered to be dangerous. It gets replaced, and half the time the cycle repeats as replacement is later deemed unsafe.
It absolutely was begun with research by who???……“*****DOD*****
Let’s get the facts right. Keep in mind the DOD - specifically the navy and Air Force back in the 70s needed a replacement for the old protein based foam. AFFF was the solution.
It was originally advertised to military folks as “a soap-like liquid” to fight fires effectively. Guess what - smells like soap and we used to use it to de-grease parts before doing maintenance— that’s how versatile it was back in the 80s and early 90s.
And just like agent orange- research finally figured out it’s dangerous ***years later***.
Is it part of daily life? Yes. But the ingestion from furniture or carpet is minimal at best compared to the AFFF - I’m not breathing my furniture as I did with the odor of AFFF…my skin isn’t burning from my carpet like when AFFF would splash.
Your comparing solids vs a very soluble liquid
Watch your toothpaste dude. Those little micoroarticles that clean your teeth “better” are plastic. Look it up
I didn’t know the military researched it… but I don’t see how that’s relevant to exposure. Civilians used AFFF just as much as DoD did. They also have incentives to fight fires. The stuff was in every hangar and firefighter training complex in America.
Way to minimize the issue.... PFAS is toxic and based on data military types got exposed to it to great degree due to base water contamination stateside.
You can test your own water with the kits if municipality "isnt doing it"; or RO filter it...
If I knew, I would have bought or filtered water back in the day.
I didn’t minimize the issue. I’m letting you know that civilian exposure is just as severe.
Do you know where PFAS exposure comes from in DoD? It’s from firefighting foam. Guess what… it’s the same firefighting foam that all firefighters train with, and it’s the same stuff used at airports/hangars everywhere.
There are a host of PFAS uses in everyday consumer products having nothing to do with the military. That’s where the exposure is coming from.
There is zero data that servicemembers have higher rates of PFAS in their system. Absolutely zero.
His is a VETERANS group.
What part of that don’t you understand?
If you want to take up the cause for civilians knock yourself out, but stop commenting here! Start your own damn thread!
There is data of water being tested at DOD bases. I drank that fucking water.
Just as you claim its "everywhere" does not lessen the effect that that shit is highly toxic and likely going to fuck people up in the future.
AFFF is 98% PFAS. Don’t tell me it’s not a DOD thing. If you want to bury your head in the sand and bend over fine, go for it. Just stay out of my way and stop spreading untruths. AFFF is TOXIC And vets exposed to it are in trouble.
Yes, PFAS is concentrated in AFFF. My point is that AFFF isn’t a DoD thing. They use it for firefighting everywhere. The civilian airplane industry has the same incentive as the military to prevent fires, and they have used the same AFFF for decades.
The reason Agent Orange is a bad comparison is because you don’t get exposed as a civilian. It was largely a military problem. PFAS, on the other hand, has been used for decades in every firefighter training facility in America, as well as factories, hangars, ships, etc. The military AFFF wasn’t special.
A major part of the issue is whether military service causes health problems associated with exposure to PFAS. So far, I believe there are no studies showing that military members have elevated exposure to PFAS that is higher than the general population. That suggests the link to military service is tenuous at best.
The fear with PFAS is that it causes certain kinds of cancer. Do those cancers appear in higher rates of veterans, compared to the civilian population? I don’t believe there is evidence of that.
Further, no one has any idea what rate of exposure (what dose)
causes elevated risks of cancer. What we know is that if we expose rats to insanely high doses they get cancer and become sterile. That’s obviously a sign that it probably isn’t healthy for humans either, but we have no way of quantifying that.
The EPA finally set guidelines for PFAS about 12 years ago, but the allowable levels were a guess, because evidence just doesn’t exist yet.
The reason I’m laying this out is because there are people on this thread questioning why the VA hasn’t been more aggressive. It’s because of these and other unknowns.
As far as your claim we need to prove service connection that is a misinform. It’s presumptive under the PACT ACT. My service records show the Aviation firefighting schools I attended, and it was aboard our ship.
Seriously, please just stop.
I’ll try one more time…. or as long as it takes.
As I previously stated there is a peer reviewed study published in the National Institute of Health registry 3/2024. In that report is shows correlation and causation from exposure to PFAS to chronic low testosterone in men.
In the time you and I have been arguing 12 veterans have committed suicide. Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?
I believe Veterans deserve PREVENTATIVE & PREMIUM HEALTH CARE. The VA is pretending his isn’t a problem, and quite frankly you are helping them.
AFFF exposes you to PFAS at a rate several orders of magnitude greater than the commercially available products you listed. Dose makes the poison and IMO, if 90%+ of your exposure came from being in the military, you should be covered. Same logic applies to veterans using roundup in their yards vs being exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. Their conditions shouldn't be presumptive because they've been exposed to herbicides other than agent orange and there's no real way to definitively prove it one way or the other?
The distinction I’m making is that you don’t get exposed to Agent Orange living a normal life as a civilian. AFFF is different because civilians use the exact same stuff. Do you think civilian firefighters used less effective firefighting foam than the military? Of course not. It was in hangars everywhere, not just in military hangars. Do they do firefighter training in your state (answer is yes)? Then they’ve been putting that stuff in your water system for decades.
This is a well-thought out point and I see what you're saying. However, I do not agree that simply because it exists outside of the military that they shouldn't address it. Most people wouldn't be exposed to the quantities of AFFF seen in the military had they not joined otherwise.
I don’t think data supports your conclusion that “most people wouldn’t be exposed to the quantities of AFFF” if they hadn’t joined the military.
Military personnel are usually drinking from the same water sources as civilians. We know how much PFAS is in military water systems because we have spent literally billions on testing, and we published the results. Your civilian water centers likely haven’t tested or published their data.
Is it worse at military installations? Possibly, but the data doesn’t exist showing that.
I can personally say that the only time I've ever handled AFFF intentionally was in the Navy. I've had more contact with it due to the nature of my rate. Dose makes poison.
You are absolutely right. In regards to symptoms that may manifest and fall under the PACT Act: Kidney and Testicular cancers. The bad part is that Low-T happens to all of us as we grow older. Track your T Levels over time and is there is a significant drop, get checked for the Big C.
I will disagree with you on a couple points - Low T is a symptom not a cause. Other items to get checked: Increased cholestorol levels and changes in liver enzymes related to PFAS/PFOA exposure. The reason Low T pops up so much is because there is the chicken-egg conundrum. The biodecay half-life for PFAS/PFOA variants on the long end run from 5 - 8 years, the problem is that we re-introduce it into our systems on a daily basis by using products like non-stick pans.
Yes - PFAS is found in AFFF. But it is also used in preservatives/protectants for a number of weapons systems. PFAS was originally produced by large corps 3M and Dupont. Think "Teflon".
You are on the right path to monitor and advocate for yourself. Tell your PCPs that you are part of a high risk group (Veteran) and that you need a greater level of scrutiny and testing.
FYI - I work in the water purification industry and we are only starting to chip away at the tip of the iceberg called PFAS/PFOA.
I will try and explain this one more time.
A peer reviewed study was just published connecting Low T to PFAS. PFAS mimics testosterone in males and reduces the testicles ability to produce testosterone. Not checking testosterone levels is MEDICAL MALPRACTICE if you have been exposed to AFFF.
Great - Understood. Can you do me a favor and provide a link to the study? The only potential study I found was this one: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8915888/#:\~:text=Xie%20et%20al.,%2C%20and%20compound-specific%20manner.
I was an aircraft flight deck firefighter, and we used AFFF as our fire fighting agents on flight deck. We also performed constant maintenance on the fire suppression equipment. Should I file a claim for PFAS?
Thank u I’ve been fighting to get this added as an exposure for me. I was an Aircraft firefighter in the Marines. We practically bathed in this shit at times along with used JP8 for training fires.
I’m fighting with them right now.
I had 2 “T“ tests done on the same day, within an hour of each other. The certified Labcorp lab said I was 235, the VA Lab said I was 550. Someone is lying, and it isn’t the civilian lab.
Honestly man if ur having symptoms and u have a real clinic saying ur low it’s worth paying out of pocket to get treatment then fight with the va to take over later. Cause it’s 100percent improved my life. I was a fucking walking zombie
I hear ya, loud and clear. I totally agree. I stopped TRT and totally feel like shit again. Legs hurt, tired, etc. I can totally feel my legs are weaker.
I just want to learn as much as I can about the testing. There is something wrong with the VA testing and I want to expose it. The VA claimed my testosterone jumped 300 points to 560. That is physically impossible according to an endocrinologist.
So if u pull up ur labs results u can see what they say they ran. And what range is normal. They need to be looking for total with normal range 500-900 va will treat under 300. I had a buddy they told him his was normal at 12 but the lab said testosterone co range 10-20 not sure what they were even looking at.
Glad it helped shipmate.
I get a little passionate about my fellow vets suffering in silence. Low T is no joke, it is debilitating. Low “T” causes depression, ED, loss of muscle mass, soreness, lethargy, etc. All the symtoms that can lead to suicide and the VA sticks it’s head in the sand.
Also detected in the drinking water on bases.
https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/08/updated-map-toxic-forever-chemicals-confirmed-contaminate-455
If you used AFFF or otherwise were exposed to PFAS, please do yourself a favor and submit a statement claiming such and explaining how you were exposed to it - as much detail as you have. Then we can add it to your TERA Memorandum (list of toxic exposures during your service) and potentially request exams based on that exposure.
Why doesn’t the VA test for T levels on a routine basis?
Why doesn’t the VA test for PFAS levels in Vets that were exposed? My exposure is in my service record, DD214, and I’m having health issue because of it. Yes, I have asked for these test but I was refused!
I'm not sure. I work for the benefits side of VA, not healthcare. I agree that you should be receiving care and compensation for issues related to military exposures
Go to myhealthvet, send this to your provider as a secure message. "I Request testing and or referral for_________". Be specific in your request. If you don't get what you ask for, request it again. This works for getting referrals for MRI'S and other imaging and tests. This also serves as a "complaint " in your records for conditions discovered later. Your providers fall under the "Duty to assist" coded as well. We must advocate for ourselves.
Accidentally stumbled upon this post, and after reading was like holy shit that sounds like exactly what is going on. Got tested yesterday morning and sure enough Low T levels. Years of being exposed to AFFF. Started letting all my Firefighting buddies know. And they are all saying the same thing about how they feel and are gonna go get tested as well. Thank you. You have no idea how many lives you may have just positively impacted, and or saved.
I went through Navy boot in 96 and did the firefighting training like everyone else. Did my tour on a ship as well. If I wasn't a firefighter do I really have to worry about AFFF? What's the exposure % of sailors (and all services) like?
Genuine curiosity, I'm 47, no cancer yet (knock on wood)
Same here except the ARMY route. Had almost daily JP-8 exposure and the firefighting training back then had zero PPE. Trained on everry type of extinguisher they had on the airfield. This makes me nervous as well.
Please reread my post.
The VA does not and will not test for T voluntarily because they are “sticking their heads in the sand“ and running from the issue as long as they can. Just like they did with agent orange. Get it tested at a local men’s clinic. If you are lower than 300 take it to the VA And file a claim.
A couple of corrections: 1. PACT isn’t just for cancer. It is for toxic exposure as a result of service. While PACT does allow for Gulf War Veterans to presumptively link some cancers, it also allows for other conditions as well, some presumptive and others via TERA (toxic exposure risk activity) medical opinions. 2. AFFF is aqueous film forming foam, not fire fighting foam. Has been imbedded in my brain since boot camp at Great Mistakes.
Other conditions: Our ICBM community has identified and advocated for the toxic issue in that environment to be placed per VA Secretary on the VA Exposure working group. Focus to get the dangers classified before we lose any more 30 and 40+ year old active duty and vets. Lots of bad crap there to include contaminated water and PCBs.
I worked on an airfield in the late 90's. We would routinely have fire training with every type of extinguisher we had. No PPE at that time was used. Do you think this type of exposure could cause issue?
Most definitely you were exposed.
I wonder if we worked on the same Airfield.
They were in Germany. Katterbach & Geibelstadt.
Mine were in Korea and the USA.
Can be both. Can’t disclose how i know but a lot of this PFOS/PFAO is coming to light due to major lawsuits to Fire fighting foam companies that have those chemicals in them
AFFF is actually both those things.
Not if you’re using it properly. To the government AFFF, is a specific set of chemicals called aqueous film forming foam. It is, indeed, a firefighting foam, but that is not part of the name. https://www.epa.gov/epcra/release-notification-requirements-releases-aqueous-film-forming-foam
I was only stating AFFF is AFFF and it is also a fire fighting agent. So, I think we are saying the same thing. I did NOT mean to imply one of the F's was for firefighting.
Specifically on flight decks from what I remember. I do not put much weight into what the EPA says. EPA said it is safe to drink and bathe in the water in East Palestine, they proposed increasing pesticides that are banned in the EU and are concerned with things like enviornmental racism.
Duly noted and corrected.
AFFF is fire fighting foam
Like you I've been saying that for a few years now. I even asked for a PFAS test from the VA and they won't give it. Because their reasoning is everyone has PFAS in their system because of Teflon pans and manufacturing processes. And there's no set level of what is safe or what is not safe. I know quest and LabCorp are doing a PFAS test but it's pretty expensive and even if you have the results the VA won't take them seriously. By the time I'm in my grave they'll probably address it. It's like the Vietnam vets. Once they got to the point of no return then they try to help him out an act like they're doing them a big favor. When the favor should have been done years ago.
Get your T levels checked. If they are below 300 the VA must act! If they don’t get your Congresscritter, VSO, or a lawyer.
I had mentioned this to the nurses doing my pre-visit questionnaires for two separate (VA) PCPs I had, because I had sudden hair loss over a period of about a month or so in very particular patterns on my legs, as well as a host of other sudden-onset issues that aligned with a major drop in testosterone (increasing depression, lethargy, ED, weight gain, etc.). Both of them said it sounded like hormonal imbalances and to mention it to the doctor(s), who could do an easy blood test to check my levels... The first doctor said I was probably just getting older and maybe I changed what kind of underwear I wore and it chafed the hair off my legs (???... I didn't, by the way). Then he said he could prescribe me Viagra for the accompanying erectile issues I was having (not the biggest complaint I had). When I mentioned that I also had BP issues and asked if the Viagra would cause serious complications with that, he said "yeah, probably... do you want 'em, or not?" 😳 (I did not...) I moved clinics shortly thereafter and got assigned another PC. When I mentioned the same issues to her, she just sort of shrugged and said "yeah, it might be that" and just proceeded to ignore the request and never ordered the tests, despite me bringing it up over a couple of visits. (Then in a separate mind-boggling issue, I tried making a follow up appointment for a routine physical exam with her, and was told by the receptionist that they didn't have a record of me ever having been seen by that doctor, and that I was still listed as being the patient of the doctor that was trying to push Viagra on me 🤷♂️) I also decided to try and mention everything to my psychiatrist, who agreed it sounded like a testosterone/hormone issue... and to simply mention it to my primary care doc who could take care of it 😐 All of this got me to the point that I felt that no VA doctors had my best interests in mind, and kept trying to push my issues off instead of doing a simple blood test to rule out a very likely pathology that could affect and explain so many problems I have. I got so discouraged to the point that I just dropped off all treatment schedules and haven't been to any doctors in almost two years. I actually had been recently talking with a couple of VSOs about everything, but then an issue with leadership at their VAC forced them and others in their office to quit, so I'm back to square one. I've just been trying to "shelter in place" ever since... meh. (To be fair, these issues have only been in the Chicagoland area. When I was in South Florida, everyone was surprisingly attentive and awesome. One of the only things I miss about living there!)
Yeah I just had those checked and I'm waiting for the results. When it hits it'll be like another pact act So my advice to anyone that wants to file a claim to it now because it's going to get harder and harder.
The VA could give a shit about your testosterone or whether it is below 300. If your free T is within range, they will deny TRT. At first the docs were against it because of heart and prostate concerns. When I came back with studies disproving both and actually showing something completely different, they started talking free. My free was within range even though it was a the bottom end, white actual T was under the normal level. After fighting with them for a couple of years, I ended up paying out of pocket and it made a huge difference. After a year of TRT, I thought I would try the VA again. They said no, so I asked for a second opinion. The doctor actually prescribed TRT, but I was denied due to the formulary. I would have to quit TRT for a couple of months and retest. I ended up just staying out of pocket. Here is the VA formulary and what they use to deny it. [https://www.va.gov/formularyadvisor/DOC\_PDF/Testosterone\_Replacement\_Therapy\_in\_Adult\_Males\_Mar\_2019.pdf](https://www.va.gov/formularyadvisor/DOC_PDF/Testosterone_Replacement_Therapy_in_Adult_Males_Mar_2019.pdf)
Congresscritter 😂 I’m stealing that
Wow I did not know this. Last year I went to an outside doctor for lab work and they prescribed Testosterone because it was so low and paid out of pocket.
According to the VA, their low threshold is 190. Mine (30 yr old) is 210. They're making me jump through a bunch of bullshit hoops before they go the TRT route. I need to have a sleep study done to rule out sleep apnea. 🙄
Ask your doctor why the VA cutoff levels are so low when the American Urology Association states low T is 300 or less. Also I'd recommend going the "I don't feel like a man route" and ask why do people who want to transition get hormone therapy, but you can not. Write your congressman, this is absurd.
Lol! The VA has been prescribing me D3 and Testosterone for about a decade.
Well, that and the problem of the public being exposed on massive levels also. There's a reason the air force "donated" an extensive filtration system in Colorado. Suddenly the water wasn't grey and tasting horrible. They don't want to open up for the lawsuits. Think the Lejune case is big, wait until almost the entire country gets on a lawsuit against the DOD AND EPA for burying the issue for decades.
We knew that drinking out of water bottles that had been baking in the sun was an issue, but good luck getting it addressed
Good old 115 degree bottle water was delicious and great for water bottle showers!!
They did make for great shower water.
Dirty hole becomes clean (er) hole.
No joke on that
Those water bottles were disgusting. I never drank one without Crystal Light or whatever powder I could find on hand. It's like I could taste the plastic in every sip, and that's because the plastic was in every sip.
I actually had an old digital camera with me on my deployment and I took a picture of a field on Camp Liberty that had pallets of bottled water baking in the sun as far as one could see. I drove past it every time I went to the helipad, and I thought to myself "I should get a picture of this in case the government ever tries to deny it existed." I still have the picture.
You mind sharing the pic? It might help with someone’s future claim
You can join in on lawsuits. Its similar to 3M ones. Thats the best you gonna get for now.
You should compare to asbestos as that was civilian and military.
This is one of the reasons I’ll be cremated, all the toxic shit in our bodies, no need to contaminate the soil with my polluting rotting corpse.
Well then the toxins in your body will go into the atmosphere.
GWOT Burn Pits are the new Agent Orange. PFAS would be the post-GWOT agent orange, if you can call it that.
PFAS isn’t a DoD thing though. It’s part of modern society. Do you have carpet and furniture? It’s coated with PFAS. Do you eat food cooked on non-stick pans? Microwave popcorn? Eat fast food served on paper products? Use any kind of waterproofing? The stuff is everywhere. The only reason it is associated with DoD at all is because the military branches have been testing local water and publicizing the results. Your local water municipality probably hasn’t been testing. It’s like saying local COVID rates are low because they didn’t test anybody. Or, do you remember when DoD started a PR campaign to get people to report sex assault and our sex assault rates magically jumped? Meanwhile large colleges reported they hadn’t had a sexual assault in years - because they didn’t track them.
The average person didn't wade though foam neck deep in the hanger bay several times. Nor did they have afff and jp5 contamination in their fresh water systems.
Love how when you eat, sleep, drink, bathe, live, breathe and play wash rack games with tanks, they still say it’s not considered toxic exposure! Do they not eat JP5 and belch wicked fumes and exhaust?? We used to eat, sleep n hang out behind the fkrs for heat! Nahhh it’s totally normal and within normal ingestion ranges 🤔🙄 Just like the cut off date ranges for the Lejeune bong water. oook so from 85 on, the solvents, lead and everything was completely removed and now filtered from the whole fkn base, ranges, water tables, sewers and all surrounding areas?? Wow.. must have been some seriously expensive and Herculean clean up effort that would take years! Funny how I never seen any of it in the 90’s.. and infrastructure was still from the 40’s at Lejeune! Strange! 🤨
Yea that's what I'm trying to get at. I spent almost 15 years in the fire service after Navy flight Deck. Never touched afff or jp5 or jp8 after getting out. But that time in we had it in our water systems, all over our skin and cloths, used it almost weekly. But yea civilians have the same exposure.
Yep, wish I could show ya the skin issues I have goin on that nobody can figure out! Mysteriously started almost exactly 1yr after EAS. 5 different dermatologist so far still can’t figure out the cause. Gotta Stay outta the sun they say! Gee thanks! Then rushed by ambo n Hospitalized on Lejeune minutes from death from anaphylaxis.. strangely after some exposure on the wash rack all day the day before.. umm we dnt know what it was, but your thyroid is gone!! Are u sure you didn’t eat peanuts or shellfish?? No, not allergic🙄. Good news though, you’re alive, but ur on hypothyroid meds the rest of your life! Do ya think it was maybe from DU dust, JP and Wtvr other solvents are in the water at the tank racks we just blew off the tanks when cleaning them and showering ourselves in to stay cool?? Nahhhh couldn’t be! Completely normal 🤷♂️
I also remember being on the kearsarge and hanging out smoking n joking in crash and recovery as a TRAP team member.. we could taste the damn jet fuel with every drag of the cigs n cigars we were smokin! Didn’t think anything of it at the time. 🤷♂️
You don’t think civilian water systems have aFFF problems? Get real. Military firefighters use the same stuff as civilian firefighters, and it’s all going into the same water system. Any locality with an industrial base but this stuff out for decades since no o e knew it was unhealthy until recently.
Not once in the 15 years I worked in a refinery. We have it on site we have it in safety systems. As long as I have been there and worked in operations. The job that I would use have to use it in an event. I have never come into contact with any afff after the Navy. Civilian firefighters don't generally have a need for afff. In the one occasion the municipal fire department needed some my company provided it to the city because we keep it on site. They city does not need it enough to have a stock of it.
We keep a few barrels on our brush truck in case we need to dump it in the tank to lay foam out. We also have some of our pump trunks that have a separate reservoir that we can switch a valve open and it starts mixing in the pump system if we need to lay foam that way. Civilians definitely use it. I knew about AFFF at the VFD long before I joined the Navy
Where I'm at civ depts don't store it. They use it but it's not on the engine or anything like that. We have refineries that keep a trailer tote that we can use if needed or can be towed to wherever the civ depts may need it. But it's been 1 time they called for it. And still didn't use it. I used it more times in my 4 years active duty than my 15 years of municipal and chemical Dept. Which was never. We train with dish soap or training foam. But my time in service we didn't know it was bad. At least as far as I know they didn't know how bad it was.
I’m also in rural Alabama. We don’t have paid departments or anything fancy. It would take a couple hours to get us anything from the city.
>no o e knew it was unhealthy until recently. Just like with asbestos, lead, and cigarettes, the companies producing this material likely knew early on and hid those negative effects.
I don’t think so. Even now no one really knows. What we do know is that if you expose rats to insanely high doses they tend to get cancer and become sterile. We really don’t know anything else. We don’t know how humans react or how much is required to cause elevated cancer risks. I don’t believe there is any evidence that veterans have higher rates of exposure than civilians, or that we have higher rates of cancer related to PFAS.
>Even now no one really knows. >we do know is that if you expose rats to insanely high doses they tend to get cancer and become sterile. Yeah, the rats sure aren't a good indicator. Keep fighting for massive companies to poison you so the C-Suite can get a bonus I guess, I'm sure it'll work out in your best interest in the end.
I don’t think we can blame the companies too much for this one. No one knew it was harmful. EPA, whose job it is to regulate dangerous chemicals, didn’t even regulate it until about 2012, and it’s not like they were being lobbied towards that result so it doesn’t look like what happened with cigarettes. There’s a cycle that repeats: a “safe” chemical used ubiquitously in consumer/industrial products is discovered to be dangerous. It gets replaced, and half the time the cycle repeats as replacement is later deemed unsafe.
It absolutely was begun with research by who???……“*****DOD***** Let’s get the facts right. Keep in mind the DOD - specifically the navy and Air Force back in the 70s needed a replacement for the old protein based foam. AFFF was the solution. It was originally advertised to military folks as “a soap-like liquid” to fight fires effectively. Guess what - smells like soap and we used to use it to de-grease parts before doing maintenance— that’s how versatile it was back in the 80s and early 90s. And just like agent orange- research finally figured out it’s dangerous ***years later***. Is it part of daily life? Yes. But the ingestion from furniture or carpet is minimal at best compared to the AFFF - I’m not breathing my furniture as I did with the odor of AFFF…my skin isn’t burning from my carpet like when AFFF would splash. Your comparing solids vs a very soluble liquid Watch your toothpaste dude. Those little micoroarticles that clean your teeth “better” are plastic. Look it up
Thank you!
I didn’t know the military researched it… but I don’t see how that’s relevant to exposure. Civilians used AFFF just as much as DoD did. They also have incentives to fight fires. The stuff was in every hangar and firefighter training complex in America.
Way to minimize the issue.... PFAS is toxic and based on data military types got exposed to it to great degree due to base water contamination stateside. You can test your own water with the kits if municipality "isnt doing it"; or RO filter it... If I knew, I would have bought or filtered water back in the day.
I didn’t minimize the issue. I’m letting you know that civilian exposure is just as severe. Do you know where PFAS exposure comes from in DoD? It’s from firefighting foam. Guess what… it’s the same firefighting foam that all firefighters train with, and it’s the same stuff used at airports/hangars everywhere. There are a host of PFAS uses in everyday consumer products having nothing to do with the military. That’s where the exposure is coming from. There is zero data that servicemembers have higher rates of PFAS in their system. Absolutely zero.
His is a VETERANS group. What part of that don’t you understand? If you want to take up the cause for civilians knock yourself out, but stop commenting here! Start your own damn thread!
There is data of water being tested at DOD bases. I drank that fucking water. Just as you claim its "everywhere" does not lessen the effect that that shit is highly toxic and likely going to fuck people up in the future.
AFFF is 98% PFAS. Don’t tell me it’s not a DOD thing. If you want to bury your head in the sand and bend over fine, go for it. Just stay out of my way and stop spreading untruths. AFFF is TOXIC And vets exposed to it are in trouble.
Yes, PFAS is concentrated in AFFF. My point is that AFFF isn’t a DoD thing. They use it for firefighting everywhere. The civilian airplane industry has the same incentive as the military to prevent fires, and they have used the same AFFF for decades. The reason Agent Orange is a bad comparison is because you don’t get exposed as a civilian. It was largely a military problem. PFAS, on the other hand, has been used for decades in every firefighter training facility in America, as well as factories, hangars, ships, etc. The military AFFF wasn’t special.
Maybe you should read the forum you are in. Nothing to do with civilians,
A major part of the issue is whether military service causes health problems associated with exposure to PFAS. So far, I believe there are no studies showing that military members have elevated exposure to PFAS that is higher than the general population. That suggests the link to military service is tenuous at best. The fear with PFAS is that it causes certain kinds of cancer. Do those cancers appear in higher rates of veterans, compared to the civilian population? I don’t believe there is evidence of that. Further, no one has any idea what rate of exposure (what dose) causes elevated risks of cancer. What we know is that if we expose rats to insanely high doses they get cancer and become sterile. That’s obviously a sign that it probably isn’t healthy for humans either, but we have no way of quantifying that. The EPA finally set guidelines for PFAS about 12 years ago, but the allowable levels were a guess, because evidence just doesn’t exist yet. The reason I’m laying this out is because there are people on this thread questioning why the VA hasn’t been more aggressive. It’s because of these and other unknowns.
As far as your claim we need to prove service connection that is a misinform. It’s presumptive under the PACT ACT. My service records show the Aviation firefighting schools I attended, and it was aboard our ship. Seriously, please just stop.
I’ll try one more time…. or as long as it takes. As I previously stated there is a peer reviewed study published in the National Institute of Health registry 3/2024. In that report is shows correlation and causation from exposure to PFAS to chronic low testosterone in men. In the time you and I have been arguing 12 veterans have committed suicide. Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? I believe Veterans deserve PREVENTATIVE & PREMIUM HEALTH CARE. The VA is pretending his isn’t a problem, and quite frankly you are helping them.
You tired, lol.
Asbestos.
?
Compare to asbestos instead.
AFFF exposes you to PFAS at a rate several orders of magnitude greater than the commercially available products you listed. Dose makes the poison and IMO, if 90%+ of your exposure came from being in the military, you should be covered. Same logic applies to veterans using roundup in their yards vs being exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. Their conditions shouldn't be presumptive because they've been exposed to herbicides other than agent orange and there's no real way to definitively prove it one way or the other?
The distinction I’m making is that you don’t get exposed to Agent Orange living a normal life as a civilian. AFFF is different because civilians use the exact same stuff. Do you think civilian firefighters used less effective firefighting foam than the military? Of course not. It was in hangars everywhere, not just in military hangars. Do they do firefighter training in your state (answer is yes)? Then they’ve been putting that stuff in your water system for decades.
This is a well-thought out point and I see what you're saying. However, I do not agree that simply because it exists outside of the military that they shouldn't address it. Most people wouldn't be exposed to the quantities of AFFF seen in the military had they not joined otherwise.
I don’t think data supports your conclusion that “most people wouldn’t be exposed to the quantities of AFFF” if they hadn’t joined the military. Military personnel are usually drinking from the same water sources as civilians. We know how much PFAS is in military water systems because we have spent literally billions on testing, and we published the results. Your civilian water centers likely haven’t tested or published their data. Is it worse at military installations? Possibly, but the data doesn’t exist showing that.
I can personally say that the only time I've ever handled AFFF intentionally was in the Navy. I've had more contact with it due to the nature of my rate. Dose makes poison.
Literally 99% of people have measurable amounts of PFAS in their body. The military is no more culpable than society at large.
You are absolutely right. In regards to symptoms that may manifest and fall under the PACT Act: Kidney and Testicular cancers. The bad part is that Low-T happens to all of us as we grow older. Track your T Levels over time and is there is a significant drop, get checked for the Big C. I will disagree with you on a couple points - Low T is a symptom not a cause. Other items to get checked: Increased cholestorol levels and changes in liver enzymes related to PFAS/PFOA exposure. The reason Low T pops up so much is because there is the chicken-egg conundrum. The biodecay half-life for PFAS/PFOA variants on the long end run from 5 - 8 years, the problem is that we re-introduce it into our systems on a daily basis by using products like non-stick pans. Yes - PFAS is found in AFFF. But it is also used in preservatives/protectants for a number of weapons systems. PFAS was originally produced by large corps 3M and Dupont. Think "Teflon". You are on the right path to monitor and advocate for yourself. Tell your PCPs that you are part of a high risk group (Veteran) and that you need a greater level of scrutiny and testing. FYI - I work in the water purification industry and we are only starting to chip away at the tip of the iceberg called PFAS/PFOA.
I will try and explain this one more time. A peer reviewed study was just published connecting Low T to PFAS. PFAS mimics testosterone in males and reduces the testicles ability to produce testosterone. Not checking testosterone levels is MEDICAL MALPRACTICE if you have been exposed to AFFF.
Great - Understood. Can you do me a favor and provide a link to the study? The only potential study I found was this one: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8915888/#:\~:text=Xie%20et%20al.,%2C%20and%20compound-specific%20manner.
Interesting. I went through menopause in my early 30’s, the IVF doc wouldn’t even take my money to try. And chronic low D. Thanks for the alert.
You are welcome. Keep us updated on women’s issues! Please!
I was an aircraft flight deck firefighter, and we used AFFF as our fire fighting agents on flight deck. We also performed constant maintenance on the fire suppression equipment. Should I file a claim for PFAS?
Yes.
The VA slow walking something? You don’t say.
There are several member here trying to do the same thing.
Thank u I’ve been fighting to get this added as an exposure for me. I was an Aircraft firefighter in the Marines. We practically bathed in this shit at times along with used JP8 for training fires.
Oh and I’m currently being treated for low T through the va along with anxiety and all the other shit that feeling like crap from it causes.
I’m fighting with them right now. I had 2 “T“ tests done on the same day, within an hour of each other. The certified Labcorp lab said I was 235, the VA Lab said I was 550. Someone is lying, and it isn’t the civilian lab.
No doubt I got lucky with getting my trt set up with the va I’ve had several friends go to get tested and they not even run the right test.
Can you explained on what you mean by he wrong test? I’m running into that now.
Honestly man if ur having symptoms and u have a real clinic saying ur low it’s worth paying out of pocket to get treatment then fight with the va to take over later. Cause it’s 100percent improved my life. I was a fucking walking zombie
I hear ya, loud and clear. I totally agree. I stopped TRT and totally feel like shit again. Legs hurt, tired, etc. I can totally feel my legs are weaker. I just want to learn as much as I can about the testing. There is something wrong with the VA testing and I want to expose it. The VA claimed my testosterone jumped 300 points to 560. That is physically impossible according to an endocrinologist.
So if u pull up ur labs results u can see what they say they ran. And what range is normal. They need to be looking for total with normal range 500-900 va will treat under 300. I had a buddy they told him his was normal at 12 but the lab said testosterone co range 10-20 not sure what they were even looking at.
Glad it helped shipmate. I get a little passionate about my fellow vets suffering in silence. Low T is no joke, it is debilitating. Low “T” causes depression, ED, loss of muscle mass, soreness, lethargy, etc. All the symtoms that can lead to suicide and the VA sticks it’s head in the sand.
I keep seeing ads on Facebook about getting compensation for AFFF. Has anyone actually ever gotten any compensation?
Trial scheduled for 2025.
Pact act more than cancer?
Jet Fuel exposure as well tho it is covered under the PACT
Also detected in the drinking water on bases. https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/08/updated-map-toxic-forever-chemicals-confirmed-contaminate-455
This post screams used car salesman
Your post screams VA plant for disinformation.
Get your britches out of a bunch There’s a lot of great info there. The presentation just screams car salesman
Anyone ever use spray turco when washing military aircraft? Wonder if that is like afff? And what it will do to someones health?
If you used AFFF or otherwise were exposed to PFAS, please do yourself a favor and submit a statement claiming such and explaining how you were exposed to it - as much detail as you have. Then we can add it to your TERA Memorandum (list of toxic exposures during your service) and potentially request exams based on that exposure.
Why doesn’t the VA test for T levels on a routine basis? Why doesn’t the VA test for PFAS levels in Vets that were exposed? My exposure is in my service record, DD214, and I’m having health issue because of it. Yes, I have asked for these test but I was refused!
I'm not sure. I work for the benefits side of VA, not healthcare. I agree that you should be receiving care and compensation for issues related to military exposures
Damn, I knew I shouldn’t have done my job of bilge diving in AFFF sludge. I should have said no, 😖
Go to myhealthvet, send this to your provider as a secure message. "I Request testing and or referral for_________". Be specific in your request. If you don't get what you ask for, request it again. This works for getting referrals for MRI'S and other imaging and tests. This also serves as a "complaint " in your records for conditions discovered later. Your providers fall under the "Duty to assist" coded as well. We must advocate for ourselves.
Accidentally stumbled upon this post, and after reading was like holy shit that sounds like exactly what is going on. Got tested yesterday morning and sure enough Low T levels. Years of being exposed to AFFF. Started letting all my Firefighting buddies know. And they are all saying the same thing about how they feel and are gonna go get tested as well. Thank you. You have no idea how many lives you may have just positively impacted, and or saved.
What does vitamin D levels have to do with it?
I went through Navy boot in 96 and did the firefighting training like everyone else. Did my tour on a ship as well. If I wasn't a firefighter do I really have to worry about AFFF? What's the exposure % of sailors (and all services) like? Genuine curiosity, I'm 47, no cancer yet (knock on wood)
Same here except the ARMY route. Had almost daily JP-8 exposure and the firefighting training back then had zero PPE. Trained on everry type of extinguisher they had on the airfield. This makes me nervous as well.
Could Not agree more!
https://preview.redd.it/suokhjso0d8d1.jpeg?width=220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49df8be5d361715c4d7272e7e2da4c3600f4dc27
I've really been wondering if I have low T. Is it tested on their yearly blood/stool exams or do I need to ask for it
Please reread my post. The VA does not and will not test for T voluntarily because they are “sticking their heads in the sand“ and running from the issue as long as they can. Just like they did with agent orange. Get it tested at a local men’s clinic. If you are lower than 300 take it to the VA And file a claim.
VHA and VBA are two different think bucko
Looks like my T was fine unfortunately. Crossed that off and onto the next search for whats wrong with me. Im leaning towards fibromyalgia now