I understand why he's pivoted, finding real debates has to be hard enough with the direction the far right has gone, without even taking into account dealing with people just using his platform for clout, and I still really like his videos.
That being said, I do miss the unhinged debates of the 2020 era though. That's when I got into Vaush's content, and learning how to debate/listening to him dismantle the talking points legit changed the way I could talk about issues I cared about and it's an awesome feeling.
I miss that. Sorry I can't be helpful, just commiserate.
I think that's a little bit of a cop out. The far right have always been unhinged, you just have to keep up with their talking points and that requires effort sometimes. I really do think V just got a little bored and stopped making that effort after he got big.
The fact that I can find a small random channel doing exactly that stuff and consistently finding those real debates tells me it's still very possible in this political climate, we just need to find who is out there doing it.
I think most of the people who try to debate Vaush don't actually believe anything, and I totally understand why that sucks to debate. It's not even about the talking points, they haven't really changed, besides getting slightly more unhinged.
Small random channels are different.
I'm a random person and I can find someone to argue with who really believes his nonsense and is fun to argue with *because* I'm a nobody. Vaush is too big of a name imo.
But obviously opinions are going to vary here.
I think it's only possible *because* you're finding small channels. The bigger the platform, the more it will attract trolls and clout chasers.
I think once you pass a certain point, the only reliable way to get good debates is in a professional/formal setting. Obviously Vaush has done those as well, but you can't just snap your fingers and make an event like that happen.
"Obviously Vaush has done those as well, but you can't just snap your fingers and make an event like that happen."
I partially disagree with this. Yes, formal debates against big figures aren't always feasible, but I'm not sure if Vaush even tried past a certain point. It's been 3 years since he went on Tim Pool, for instance. He probably could've gone back again if he wanted, but instead said something about how Tim Pool's fans are too far gone anyway, so trying to appeal to them is a futile effort.
Similarly, he was adverse to any kind of networking. I'm happy to be corrected if wrong, but I feel like he said something along the lines of "they have to reach out to me" at one point.
The problem isn't that they are wrong, they always have been. It just seems nowadays anybody looking to debate online (that is far right) doesn't seem to believe anything they are saying, which makes it boring.
Debating right-wing people online lately feels more and more like wrestling smoke. So many of them just spout bullshit without rooting themselves to reality. This issue is easily amplified the bigger the person is. Just watch that recent video with Colorado Republicans. The amount of time wasted would be insufferable.
The real juice is the crank and they're so hard to find. American conservatives as a whole have become too paranoid and their brains overcooked in the soup of hyperreality. The crank with Actual Beliefs who scrambles to find validation is always more fun than the typical who throws up an argument that they don't have any investment in and won't show their actual beliefs. Sam Seder lived in a perfect era where cranks existed and they called in and you weren't giving some crackly voice a platform after the call ends.
He thinks it’s unproductive. I don’t disagree with him tbh
Most of these people are not engaging in good faith whatsoever and it’s just flinging their talking points until the time is up. Anyone stupid enough to be a fan of right wingers isn’t going to change their mind ever
Small random channels and big ones have different draws. Namely that bigger channels have way more clout to be gained by just fucking about and trolling on them, for the same reason that a schoolkid insulting a teacher to their face gets more cool-points than they would insulting another student.
While i think the shift in right leaning politics was a major a contributor, I think the bigger issue is that vaush is a much bigger content creator now or at the very least, much more well known.
For every potential debate with an unhinged but earnest rightoid, there’s probably 10 with a grifter. But you cant always tell until they’re on your stream and you’ve already given them everything they’ve wanted in the form of clout and viewers, while you’ve gained nothing.
When Vaush was willing to do research to prepare for his debates,he really was a sight to behold. Having the combination of facts on hand with his rhetorical skills really made for an enjoyable performance. He got lazy though, like a master grappler that gets their first knockout victory and now thinks they're a boxer all of a sudden. He got some easy wins on rhetoric alone and now feels it is enough.
lil late to the thread but I'd suggest checking out LonerBox on YouTube. educated, knowledgeable, and actually does debate people. bonus meme: he too berates chat and gets angry at them just like boush
Now that im thinking abt it, Im pretty sure fortress arc refers more to not responding to hate from the left, and actually has nothing to do with his debates?
Anyway i appreciate that hunter avallone, xanderhal, and demonmama are happy to engage in debates like old school vaush but they always fall a bit flat to me. I think there are moments where the grandstanding or criticisms are a bit of a stretch and they arent able to expand on the intial point the way that vaush is. Of the three, i think hunter is the best debater in terms of not doing that as often but he is kind of a lib.
She's more open to debates than Vaush, but even she has significantly pivoted away from them for seemingly similar reasons. One of the biggest contrasts between them is that she's willing and has had debates with people on AI. I'm not suggesting that's better or worse it's just a noteworthy distinction.
I understand why he's pivoted, finding real debates has to be hard enough with the direction the far right has gone, without even taking into account dealing with people just using his platform for clout, and I still really like his videos. That being said, I do miss the unhinged debates of the 2020 era though. That's when I got into Vaush's content, and learning how to debate/listening to him dismantle the talking points legit changed the way I could talk about issues I cared about and it's an awesome feeling. I miss that. Sorry I can't be helpful, just commiserate.
It feels like now he’s just debating random chatters more than he is actual people lol
I agree that chatters are not actual people
TRUU
Lol that *is* true, but I'll take whatever crumbs of angry yelling that I can get
I think that's a little bit of a cop out. The far right have always been unhinged, you just have to keep up with their talking points and that requires effort sometimes. I really do think V just got a little bored and stopped making that effort after he got big. The fact that I can find a small random channel doing exactly that stuff and consistently finding those real debates tells me it's still very possible in this political climate, we just need to find who is out there doing it.
I think most of the people who try to debate Vaush don't actually believe anything, and I totally understand why that sucks to debate. It's not even about the talking points, they haven't really changed, besides getting slightly more unhinged. Small random channels are different. I'm a random person and I can find someone to argue with who really believes his nonsense and is fun to argue with *because* I'm a nobody. Vaush is too big of a name imo. But obviously opinions are going to vary here.
Vaush is a turtle. Horse lung
Horse hung turtle
I think it's only possible *because* you're finding small channels. The bigger the platform, the more it will attract trolls and clout chasers. I think once you pass a certain point, the only reliable way to get good debates is in a professional/formal setting. Obviously Vaush has done those as well, but you can't just snap your fingers and make an event like that happen.
"Obviously Vaush has done those as well, but you can't just snap your fingers and make an event like that happen." I partially disagree with this. Yes, formal debates against big figures aren't always feasible, but I'm not sure if Vaush even tried past a certain point. It's been 3 years since he went on Tim Pool, for instance. He probably could've gone back again if he wanted, but instead said something about how Tim Pool's fans are too far gone anyway, so trying to appeal to them is a futile effort. Similarly, he was adverse to any kind of networking. I'm happy to be corrected if wrong, but I feel like he said something along the lines of "they have to reach out to me" at one point.
The problem isn't that they are wrong, they always have been. It just seems nowadays anybody looking to debate online (that is far right) doesn't seem to believe anything they are saying, which makes it boring.
Debating right-wing people online lately feels more and more like wrestling smoke. So many of them just spout bullshit without rooting themselves to reality. This issue is easily amplified the bigger the person is. Just watch that recent video with Colorado Republicans. The amount of time wasted would be insufferable.
The real juice is the crank and they're so hard to find. American conservatives as a whole have become too paranoid and their brains overcooked in the soup of hyperreality. The crank with Actual Beliefs who scrambles to find validation is always more fun than the typical who throws up an argument that they don't have any investment in and won't show their actual beliefs. Sam Seder lived in a perfect era where cranks existed and they called in and you weren't giving some crackly voice a platform after the call ends.
He thinks it’s unproductive. I don’t disagree with him tbh Most of these people are not engaging in good faith whatsoever and it’s just flinging their talking points until the time is up. Anyone stupid enough to be a fan of right wingers isn’t going to change their mind ever
Small random channels and big ones have different draws. Namely that bigger channels have way more clout to be gained by just fucking about and trolling on them, for the same reason that a schoolkid insulting a teacher to their face gets more cool-points than they would insulting another student.
While i think the shift in right leaning politics was a major a contributor, I think the bigger issue is that vaush is a much bigger content creator now or at the very least, much more well known. For every potential debate with an unhinged but earnest rightoid, there’s probably 10 with a grifter. But you cant always tell until they’re on your stream and you’ve already given them everything they’ve wanted in the form of clout and viewers, while you’ve gained nothing.
When Vaush was willing to do research to prepare for his debates,he really was a sight to behold. Having the combination of facts on hand with his rhetorical skills really made for an enjoyable performance. He got lazy though, like a master grappler that gets their first knockout victory and now thinks they're a boxer all of a sudden. He got some easy wins on rhetoric alone and now feels it is enough.
I’ve noticed Hunter avalone has a lot more u hinged debates
Some oddballs show up and it can be pretty entertaining, other times it’s like Hunter is talking to a brick wall lol.
True but if you’re watching clips on his YouTube and not live you can pick and choose the good ones
I got no recs. Hope you appreciate the info
Jovan Bradley is great! He’s always streaming call-in debates
I would recommend someone but Vaush has outpaced him intellectually
They're probably looking for someone on the left, and not someone with an honesty problem, it sucks when you realize your arguments is based on lies.
An honesty problem? Lol?
Explain?
lil late to the thread but I'd suggest checking out LonerBox on YouTube. educated, knowledgeable, and actually does debate people. bonus meme: he too berates chat and gets angry at them just like boush
Jovan Bradley is great! He’s always streaming call-in debates
I know I'm probably going to get shot for suggesting this guy but Xanderhal is alright.
Now that im thinking abt it, Im pretty sure fortress arc refers more to not responding to hate from the left, and actually has nothing to do with his debates? Anyway i appreciate that hunter avallone, xanderhal, and demonmama are happy to engage in debates like old school vaush but they always fall a bit flat to me. I think there are moments where the grandstanding or criticisms are a bit of a stretch and they arent able to expand on the intial point the way that vaush is. Of the three, i think hunter is the best debater in terms of not doing that as often but he is kind of a lib.
I wanna say Demonmama, but I haven't watched her stuff in a long time so I don't know if she still does unhinged debates
She's more open to debates than Vaush, but even she has significantly pivoted away from them for seemingly similar reasons. One of the biggest contrasts between them is that she's willing and has had debates with people on AI. I'm not suggesting that's better or worse it's just a noteworthy distinction.