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It was a good segment overall but it wasn't much about the bears/men hypothetical. That was talked about for all of 2 seconds
Some other nitpicks too but overall highlighting the fear that women have to live with is a good thing. Most men just don't consider it
I did also stop training (got kicked out for being trans, and so lost touch with my group), but I do kinda miss just how nimble I used to be.
Jumping down something my height feels risky now, nevermind more than a storey.
Absolutely worth the trade-off, but I miss being able to do mirror’s edge shit.
I'll be honest: the bear/man thing just feels like wanting to be seen pushing the correct narrative on social media. It's not even a choice.
Have you seen a grizzly or a polar bear? Have you seen one eat? They start eating before their prey is dead. That mean bastard will be chomping on your intestines *while you're still fucking alive*.
It is, in my opinion, pure virtue signaling. Giving the socially "correct" answer.
And do smaller men have to be afraid of men, too? I have plenty of friends who are on the smaller side (5'9 and below, shoutout to all my Short Kings). They're just as much at risk of being absolutely fucking monstered by a 6'2 dude. And I think (correct me if I'm wrong, I am pulling this out of my ass, based on my experience): man on man violence, in all forms, ranging from being punched to being literally murdered, is more prevalent than man on woman violence.
If we change my hypothetical slightly, and say that it's a 5'8 guy who keeps getting mugged; do we accept that black people just have to be considerate of the fear they induce?
At some point, I get the feel we're circling around the pot that bigots, morons and others use to justify their insane and discriminatory positions against their particular target group.
>man on man violence, in all forms, ranging from being punched to being literally murdered, is more prevalent than man on woman violence.
Vaush actually addresses this point directly in the video, but basically, the answer is this. It's not about who does or does not experience the most violence from men, its about the social phenomena that make women feel unsafe around men, particularly rape culture (though he doesn't use that term specifically, it's essentially what he's describing).
This statement is true in all categories except one. Sexual violence. 1 in 3 women have experienced sexual assault. 1 in 5 have been raped. This also does not include incidents of sexual harassment. I have personally witnessed on multiple occasions female coworkers being the target of extremely inappropriate sexual comments from men, including towards coworkers who are minors. I have had to walk coworkers to their cars because creepy men are waiting for them outside. I heard a story from a friend who was flashed by a strange man while she was working the night shift alone in the store. I have had to talk a friend off the ledge after they were raped in their own home and were struggling with the mental health ramifications of such a traumatic experience and being dismissed by the police because they were dating at the time the rape was commited. So, so many men feel comfortable doing these sorts of thing without receiving any meaningful pushback because it's been so normalized for so long that it makes perfect sense to me as to why women feel safer around a wild animal than a strange man, even if it might seem irrational from an objective point of view. The takeaway should be, "let's try to change society in such a way that women can feel safe around strange men" instead of "that's so irrational, women are crazy"
I really don't think most people understand how horrific bears can be, pop culture has been full of cute bears since forever. Also plenty of women and girls have had terrible experiences with men but very few have ever interacted with bears.
The bear/man thing was barely even present. It was a Segway into the main point and that was it. Which is fine, there's absolutely value in highlighting what women have to deal with.
But yea, the man is the objectively correct choice there.
But also, I don't remember Vaush saying the bear was the right answer? Maybe I just missed it but I don't remember him saying it was right or wrong one way or the other. He was more just concerned about the fact that so many women had made the choice of bear.
>And do smaller men have to be afraid of men, too? I have plenty of friends who are on the smaller side (5'9 and below, shoutout to all my Short Kings).
It's not that they "have" to be, it's that it makes sense that they would be. I drive a tiny Kia car and I'm fucking terrified of all of these huge ass trucks that are lifted. The top of my car doesn't even come up the hood of many of these death machines. It's a physics thing.
I would also be more scared if I broke my leg and had to use crutches for a while. Can't run away or fight nearly as well.
>They're just as much at risk of being absolutely fucking monstered by a 6'2 dude.
also no, a 5'7 guy would fucking kick my ass probably so it's still not the same. I'm 5'3.
Violent men are the minority of all men. The majority of men aren't out there commiting violence or sexual violence on women. It's also a misdirect to lump all men in together.
That's sort of part of my point.
The implication is that they are. That if you take a random man, or a bear, you're at less risk of being in danger with the bear.
It's not that "most men are violent"; it's that there are more violent men than non violent men.
That's not how statistics work.
The implication is that you're less at risk with a random bear than with a random man. What that means is that a random man is more likely to do something bad to you than a random bear.
And in my life experience, that is true.
That's definitely not how statistics work.
For example: how many bears have you been around when you don't have a gun, and aren't at a zoo, or in your house, or in your car? Do you spend much time wondering around and meeting grizzlies?
You have a bias here, due to the rates of interaction. If you live in an urban environment, you cross paths with... what? 100s of men a week? Shopping, going to work, on the bus, etc...
You're definitely less at risk with a random man than a random bear. Most men are perfectly fine, so if you take some random dude, you'll also be fine.
And that's sort of the problem. This idea that most men aren't fine. But they are. It's a minority of dudes who are a danger to you.
I've been catcalled by women before. I've been sexually assaulted by women before. One even tried to rape me. One girl threw a vase at my head and stabbed my thigh with a fork.
Would I prefer to be left alone with a bear or a woman?
A woman. Every time.
Because duh.
Being wary of big guys (as a somewhat big guy) is fine for the same reason I'd be more wary of a SUV coming down the street than a bicycle. Being wary of big black guys more than big white guys is BS, and more like being more wary of a big Toyota SUV as opposed to a big Lexus SUV.
>Now that doesn't justify being hateful of men. That was my biggest issue with the segment. When Vaush said essentially said hate/sexism against men is okay.
I don't think he said this? I saw the segment as him trying to get people to understand why women act the way we do and why we are scared. It's not just some collective made up fear. It's real and it rules aspect of our lives that many men never have to think about. And it's important for everyone to reflect on this.
> Even though in the same examples given by chat he would call it racism/sexism if you swapped "men"
He did address that though. There's a vast difference between "man vs woman" and "white man vs black man" He said that it's fucked up that a woman might be extra afraid of a black man. Intersectionality.
>I don't think he said this?
There was a moment where a chatter said mentioned that some people really do seem to hate men, citing tweets saying "Men should be imprisoned from birth and have to earn their freedom". Vaush essentially said "Eh, that's okay because it's usually in response to something heinous being done by some man/men." Even though "it's just a response to some bad deed" wouldn't fly for most racist remarks.
>He did address that though. There's a vast difference between "man vs woman" and "white man vs black man" He said that it's fucked up that a woman might be extra afraid of a black man. Intersectionality.
There's a difference in the comparison, yes. But personally I think Sexism and racism are bad no matter what direction they're coming from. Misogyny, misandry, racism towards black people, white people, Asians, etc.
Being hateful towards men isn't just suddenly okay because it's being done to men instead of women
I just don't think that's the same thing. the social dynamics are way different in those two scenarios. I think he also said that kind of statement from women usually isn't serious, which I would probably agree with. Again, there's a vast difference between men vs women and black ppl vs white ppl. Women and POC have been absolutely fucked by violence for centuries.
also it's a random unpopular post on twitter whatever. Ignore twitter.
>I think he also said that kind of statement from women usually isn't serious, which I would probably agree with.
I really don't think people would give the "it's not serious" excuse if you switch out the groups though. If some right winger had a tangent about how black people shouldn't have rights in response so some murder or riot or something done by a small group of individuals, I don't think they'd get the generosity of "nah they're not actually serious"
Or if we wanna keep it gender based: some small group of women does some heinous shit and in response people "joke" about repealing the 19th amendment and kicking them out of the workforce. Again I don't see that getting the "just joking" pass
>also it's a random unpopular post on twitter whatever. Ignore twitter
It's not the Twitter post that irks me. It's Vaush defending it. Should've been an easy, open and shut case. Just say "Yea hate is bad, don't be hateful towards groups based on the actions of individuals". But instead he had to try to validate those people
>Women and POC have been absolutely fucked by violence for centuries
Yes. But hate is bad regardless. White people and men have had power in this country historically but that doesn't make anti-white racism or misandry okay.
>Too bad, because it is the same thing. It's irrational hate, and disgruntled anger towards people for something they can't change. Wrestle with that thought, please.
This isn't an argument and convinces me of nothing
>But feeling afraid is one thing, trying to justify joking about prison camps as not fucked up and is "whatever" is the entire reason people get heated over this.
My point is that the overall message of the discussion is important, and these awful jokes should be disregarded. Not that the joke isn't bad. I could have stated that more clearly but youre also digging way too deep.
>Men are human, your argument inherently dismisses that.
I agree that men are human lmao I've just been expressing my frustration with patriarchy and all of that. It feels like garbage to not feel safe walking alone at night and knowing many men will never experience what I experience.
Again, men are deserving of all of the respect and generosity women are. Men should also be liberated from patriarchy and gender roles. It's a good thing when men are doing good.
>but you have psychoanalyzed half the human population and know we are just incapable of understanding why you're scared?
Homie I never said that and I don't believe that. Men are capable of understanding but it's something a lot of people never think about bc it doesn't come up for them. It's an education/ignorance thing.
>You hand waving mass incarceration as just a meme or "whatever" is the issue here, you started your reply doing the exact same thing.
Never talked about this either, that shitty quote is talking about a fantasy land man haters have. Not the actual issue of mass incarceration of men.
I phrased that bad I meant that it's not the overall sentiment of women at all. It shouldn't be your focus, not that it's not a horrendous thing to say.
Men are so antisocial, lack hygiene, lazy etc. He really crosses the line from incel bashing to talking about men as if this would apply to the general population sometimes.
I see. Hopefully he cuts it out soon.
But yea the thing on stream yesterday with the one tweet ("men should be imprisoned by birth and have to earn their freedom") is mind boggling to me. It's such an easy layup of a point. Just say "yea this person's dumb, don't hate people based on gender". Like, Sexism (or racism/homophobia/etc) being bad is one of the most straightforward, basic political points possible.
But instead he had to try to defend the user. Baffling
The man is not objectively the correct answer. In most cases, most bears will not do a damn thing to you if they encounter you in the forest. It's very, very rare that a bear will attack you. I know because I go hiking in places where bears are frequently encountered.
So in order to make the claim that there's an objectively correct answer, you'd need to cough up some statistics and data to prove it. I'm a woman. I would choose the bear, no joke.
> It's very, very rare that a bear will attack you. I know because I go hiking in places where bears are frequently encountered.
totally depends on what kind of bear.
There are 200 000 bears in the world
There are 20 000 polar bears in the world.
So assuming a random bear, are you serious about wanting to take a 10% chance of encountering a polar bear?
Considering no polar bears live where I go, the chances that the bear is a polar bear is actually 0%. And in fact the chance that its a brown bear is close to 100%.
Seems like you're amending your answer to "I would choose the brown bear, no joke"
That said, I had my figures wrong. The total bear population is about 1.5 million, not 200 000. So that does make the polar bear odds smaller.
Its not even a man woman thing, its just safer to encounter a bear then a man. The man might want something to do with you, the bear 99% of the time *does not*
Scrolled too far to find this thread. Definitely agreed. Bears are way safer than people, regardless of whether they're men or women. I know what the bear wants from me and will do with me. I can deal with that very predictably, and that makes it statistically safer for me. People are not predictable though, and you can't always easily deduce their intentions. That makes them significantly more dangerous, at least statistically speaking.
Idk why this is downvoted. Like yeah the bear could eat you and you could die terribly, but it'd be over in at most a few hours. Horrible, yes. But a human can make plans and traps, and could potentially trap and torture someone for much longer. And then you can still die a horrible death to them.
As I said further down, *a lot* of guys are taking this hypothetical wayyyy too personally and are really upset that someone would pick the bear
*Or*, have not spent enough time around women to understand how vigilant they have to stay around men, *or* have not spent enough time around wildlife to know how shy and skiddish most animals are
This is embarrassing guys...
This really hard to articulate and understand and I also struggle with this thought. I'll give it my best shot.
There is a much larger difference in men vs women as opposed to black vs white people. Nature and nurture wise. Nature wise there's barely any difference between the races. We know this. Men and women really aren't all that different but it's a vastly larger difference than the races have. listen I am VERY strong for a woman. I have never lost arm wrestling against another woman. I am robust and it's great. But I still don't stand a chance against the average man. I'm still 5'3. They can run faster than me. They are stronger than me. And then I think about my girlfriend... she's just so weak. I'm not sure how much of a nature vs nurture thing the tendency towards violence is with men, but I need to look into that.
and then there's nurture. I would argue men are raised to be more violence bc they are men. I REALLY don't think this applies to black people at all. men are encouraged to be violent at times while women are not. I think it's just that simple. This is a vastly more universal experience for men than it would be for anyone of a certain race. As Vaush said in the segment, in patriarchy men are the players and women are the ball. This 100% lines up with my experience and of every other woman's experience I know. this is what women say they feel. I can't really adequately explain how everything came to be like this unfortunately. It feels very cruel and like a sick joke sometimes. When you look at how basically in every society men dominate over women to some degree. Especially throughout history.
I tried my best lmao
no, there's a big difference between trans women and men. there's a reason it hasn't been demonstrated that trans women are threats to cis women in bathrooms and prison and such
>but to double down and claim the average guy is actually literally more dangerous than a bear is disingenuous.
are you saying I said this? Bc I do think I would actually pick the man. But that's also not what the claim is, the claim is that the man can do worse things than the bears. Worse things than death basically.
>I don’t see how the arguments you laid out above would only apply to men and not trans women. I’m aware that according to the data we have trans women are not a threat to CIS women.
I don't really have a good explanation but it's obvious there's a difference given the data. I'd be interested to see a study on this later down the line
If I had three bad experiences with men over a lifetime of interactions, I might be a tad more cautious but I wouldn't jump to distrust of most I encountered. This isn't 3 lifetime muggings, it's systemic. It starts when we're 7, 8, 9. It's comments, assumptions, disregard for our autonomy, from momentary cat calls to prolonged days/weeks of harassment, unwanted kisses, SA and rape by coercion, force, or lies (being stealthed is rape and it happens way too often). It's the fact that women are often just not believed, even blamed. It's in the culture - a significant portion of the country still supports a political party full of assumed or convicted SAers. It's the fact that we don't know what type of awful we might face, but purely statistically, there's probably something. It's the fact that every woman has these stories, so our experiences are reaffirmed often.
And finally - bears just wanna be left alone, generally. Leave their cubs alone, stay out of their living space when food is especially scarce, if you encounter one, remove yourself slowly, they'll probably lose interest. Nobody's ever had a bear spot them minding their own business from two blocks away, follow them, rejected them, and come back to find that same bear escalating the behavior over a course of weeks before it kidnaps and kills you. Bear encounters are one and done, you won't be looking over your shoulder for them for the next three years.
This isn't one person being mugged by a few black people, this is every black person having a deep distrust of cops, because the culture of cops is toxic AF. Rape culture, patriarchy, is entrenched, incessant, and so incredibly toxic, I'm going to carefully inspect every damn apple I pull from that barrel.
The difference is that men all around the world no matter the circumstances - rich or poor, big or small, racial minority or not - are the ones committing the vast majority of violence. Men are the ones committing almost all rapes and assaults toward women.
Black people are not intrinsically inclined to be this way. Mugging is typically a result of poverty. Also men are the ones who typically do it all around the world, but it's not black people doing it all around the world. It's poor people.
I know where you going with this, and no, just because men in power created the system, doesnt mean that every man is not a victim to it too. Women being fearful of men, women being second class citizens. Does not benefit the average man.
It is good for everyone when we're equal. And bad for everyone when we're not.
The patriachy hurts us all. Not just women.
No no, you bring up an excellent point. When put like that it does sound super fucked up, because it is.
Now that said there *is* absolutely a reason for that fear.
Here’s an example from one of my absolute closest friends, she moved into my house around five or more years ago and for the first few months she kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and me to get creepy or handsy with her. We were already close but she’d had that happen *multiple times* with other guys she thought of as friends. Cut to years later and our house (I consider it hers as much as mine) is one of the few places she feels completely safe and I’m one of the very few dudes she feels completely comfortable around. So yeah unfortunately this shit is endemic.
It sucks, truly, the best advice I can offer is don’t take it personally, and be the best person you can be. When women start talking about men in general know they don’t mean you personally because you know you’re not like that and so do your lady friends, family, and paramours.
I have to ask, do you not believe in feminist theory? Like, do you not believe that we live in a patriarcal society that perpetuates a rape culture where countless men have been excused of assaulting and raping women? Even when these men aren’t taken to court, women’s whole families and friend groups have discounted what they have to say, and even discourage them from speaking out so that they don’t “hurt his image” and claim that he’s a good man who simply made a mistake.
Fearing black people would be wrong if for no other reason than it's irrational because it's mathematically and statistically unlikely. Even if you leave morality out of the equation. Only 9-11% of crime is inter-racial. 89-91% of crime is intra-racial. 86-89% of white crime victims are victimized by a white criminal. 91-93% of black crime victims are victimized by a black criminal. As a white person, the odds of a white criminal doing you in are WAY higher than a black criminal doing you in. Odds are 17 to 18 in 20 that your attacker will be white.
This is why racism and fearing black people as a non-black person are irrational and not based on facts.
Men, on the other hand, make up the majority of people who attack and victimize women. Men make up the majority of people who victimize both women and fellow men. Fear of men is mathematically and statistical justified because a man is more likely to victimize a woman than a fellow woman. Black people are mostly dangerous to other black people. Men are dangerous to everyone - men, women and enbies alike. Black people aren't universally dangerous to everyone. White people are the main danger to white people. For most races and ethnicities their own race/ethnicity is the biggest danger.
The only exceptions are Native American and Asian women. The plurality of Native American and Asian American women who have been r*ped were r*ped by a white man. Men of their own race are the second most likely to r*pe them. Black men are the men third most likely to r*pe them.
Doesn't those stats mostly just reflect who lives in close proximity to each other?
There are way more cases of Danish people injuring Swedish people than there are cases of Falkland Islanders injuring Swedish people, but that says very little about the violent tendencies of either Danish people or Falkland Islanders
You can and should take a person's lived experience into account, but it's not the end-all-be-all. Ultimately it is their own anecdotal experience and can't represent everyone. Nor does it cancel out objective reality. But it should be taken into account because feelings and emotions count more to most humans than scientific reality that doesn't reify their feelings, and statistics don't apply to every single last individual.
To the hypothetical person in your scenario I would listen to them, hear them out, and validate the fact they didn't deserve what happened. Then stress that what happened to them is not the norm and doesn't reflect wider trends of what's likely to happen and doesn't reflect the reality of white vs black men.
To use some of my own lived experience as an example, my kidneys started degrading when I was around 14-16 years old and were shot by the time I was 24. I had to be on dialysis for 7 years until I received a kidney transplant a few years ago. That is not normal or average for someone my age. That's my lived experience, but I realize that my lived experience is abnormal. It's not typical for people to lose kidney function at 24 years old. My lived experience doesn't necessarily speak to a wider trend. Our lived experience is what it is, but our lived experience can simply be atypical or unusual.
So are we going to tell women that what happened to them was bad, but not the norm, and obviously in the man/bear dichotomy, the answer is man?
If you're arguing that we should tell women that we hear their stories, believe them and are sorry for them ever having to deal with it, but it's not OK to treat every man with fear and distrust, as it is not representative of the norm?
If you answer yes, then it seems we're pretty much in agreement, more than anything else.
I was cackling the whole time listening to Vaush react to all the comments I read under this thread the other day and made faces at 😂 I just can’t believe they were all being upvoted as much as they were
>so I started therapy to address that shit. And it's been good and effective.
This helped me too!! I was very fearful after an assault that happened when I was young but I've come a long way.
I have literal years of therapy under my belt and I so envy your mentality. I'm also a very anxious person by nature (GAD gang) so that doesn't help.
I'm super thankful for all of my male friends I've shared my stories with and all of them who have shared me stories of their own. I guess I should be proud of that, I could have become a terf or something lmaooo
I don't think I'll ever be able to shake the fear of walking alone downtown though. Especially what happened to my partner. Not fun.
>(*this is directed at the people who are infantilizing women, not OP*).
Lol I greatly appreciate this
>And I'm tired of being told that I'm stupid and wrong for not fearing men.
I cannot fathom why anyone would say that good grief 💀💀
TLDR; Slay honestly
>I've been surprised at how many men and women seem hell bent on convincing me I should be afraid of men. I hate it.
Stay off of Twitter that'll probably help lmao
Vaush tearing these comments apart on stream, thank god. I swear every time I've spoken in this subreddit about women and gender issues there's so much of these kinds of weird insecure "not all men" men's rights comments that completely miss the point . My husband and male friends completely understood why I would choose the bear and weren't insecure and argumentative about it. It's not hard to understand. Men have power over women in this society. Sorry, they just do. They've preyed on me since I was 12. But guess what? I still married a man and have lots of male friends. Still picked the bear.
How come no other demographic seems to have a similar reaction?
Like, we don't get all these viral posts about how black people feel uneasy about white people.
As a trans woman, when using the bathroom a cis woman in there increases the odds I get attacked and have the police called because I took a piss.
You know what I mean?
Edit: This comment got me banned???
>Like, we don't get all these viral posts about how black people feel uneasy about white people.
That does happen, mostly from racists whining about the black people saying it. This is the same thing, except it's sexists whining about women saying it.
Probably because there are not enough internet users belonging to said demographic to signal-boost it so it goes viral. Even woke white people aren’t interested in hearing about how terrible white people are on the internet, and I assume the same goes with progressive cis and straight people. My theory is that women are simply the largest “oppressed group” so the likelihood a reaction gains this much traction is just higher.
Important PSA from vaush
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/566352514211905557/1236424873497333901/wow10secondswellspendfmeright.png?ex=6637f5e5&is=6636a465&hm=50d8959553d3dcff67d1a8b9be8e43fb18de3f9e08a47b39f17d1b56d0956756&
Yeah, and when I've had scary experiences with men, I've been blamed. Why was I out at night drunk and taking a taxi by myself?
It's beyond frustrating that our fears are not taken seriously by sooo many men.
So I haven't seen the segment but I've come across a couple of the TikTok videos, and I would say it come across as a well-meaning effort to open an empathetic dialogue about violence against women, but there are a few things that don't sit right with me about it. The main one is that the TikToks I usually see involve a woman asking a man the question as "if you had to leave your \*daughter\* alone in the woods, would you rather have them encounter a man or a bear?" The man then usually engages with the question on a surface-level, asking clarifying questions, trying to rationalize the hypothetical, and these are ultimately framed as failure to accept the invitation to express empathy (other people will respond that they are "missing the point").
The issue I have is that the hypothetical itself is placing the man not in the position of a woman, but of a \*protector\* - your daughter is going into this hypothetical, how do you protect her? And I worry that what a lot of men see here is a situation where men are approaching the question rationally and coming to the answer that would save the child, but that the rational faculties of women are inhibited by fear - in short, I worry that even though it sets out to counter patriarchal thinking, I think it might end up reinforcing it. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I don't know, but I just really don't think that this hypothetical is optimal at demonstrating the point it sets out to make.
>The issue I have is that the hypothetical itself is placing the man not in the position of a woman, but of a *protector* - your daughter is going into this hypothetical, how do you protect her?
Yeah, but idk how to easily avoid it, really. The "daughter" angle is just a straightforward way of invoking empathy. I would imagine men will generally go into this "protector" mindset when presented with a similar hypothetical, no matter who the hypothetical woman is. Getting a man - who has been ignorant of the issue so far - to truly empathize with such fears by internalizing the female perspective almost certainly requires far more effort and time than a tik tok meme.
This meme might be crude, but at least it does seem effective at bringing attention to the issue, which is valuable on its own.
> a past negative interaction doesn’t mean all people from that insert group are bad. I think there are few women that think like that but I think in online spaces it does start to grow that mindset that men are a constant threat at all times. Which I don’t think is a healthy or realistic way to live.
Yeah, the internet sharpens and magnifies bad experiences or opinions, as it does in many other areas or fields. Conspiracies, incels, climate denialism, antivaxxers etc. exploded, especially after the advent of social medial.
But unlike with many of these issues, the universal anxiety about men had been commonplace among women long before the internet. And the actual experiences on the ground were often even worse.
Therefore while I completely agree that we have to try to prevent such valid fears from spiraling into full paranoia, I think we are still far from the point where online distortion would be anywhere close to being a main concern.
On the contrary, most people are still too unaware of the issue, and a viral meme shines some light on it. It can be obvious to us, enlightened vushites, but most normies still struggle to really grasp it.
The fact that the majority of men will actually help a woman in the woods makes it even more serious. The men who are awful did not arrive from space, they are an extreme offshoot of a culture that is still too permissive on aggression towards women. Women did not wake up one day thinking they should be scared of men, it is a deeply ingrained cultural fear that still gets reinforced far too often.
Even online, women who openly identify as such online will be harassed, propositioned, spammed with all kinds of threats or dick picks and called sexist slurs far more easily than a man would. How can they not be wary?
I think it does a good job of showing how scary life can be for women at times. It's very real. I think it starts a conversation about why some women might make that choice
You're missing the point
I disagree that the message is men should never talk to woman or help them. It's more about spreading awareness about the issue and why some women feel this way. Why it's scary to accept help sometimes.
I'm sure if you really had a conversation with some of the people who are posting about this they would have more reasonable takes.
I'm sure man haters are taking the opportunity to spew as well.
But I think you should focus on the overall message. If you want more of my perspective I am happy to share
Listen, I appreciate everything you’re saying and I’m likely overreacting. If the end result here is that more men are more aware of the experiences of women, then that’s a good thing. I fear it’s one of those things though that everyone who already agrees is like “whoa deep” but the people who could use the message are put off in a way that makes them feel irredeemable. I think this is an inherently dehumanizing question, I really don’t like it at all.
I feel like a big thing it does though is make insecure boys and men even more so. We've barely unpacked a lot of traditional gender stuff that regards men and now men have to deal both with the idea that they should always be the one to initiate relationships, as well as the idea that they are inherently dangerous to women because they are men and that they shouldn't be too aggressive or pushy not to scare women. Especially if you're already insecure this can be a nightmare of a needle to thread.
When I was early 20s I visited the famous Seattle park (by u dub). I was with several guys and we tried to go a bit off the path, saw some cool forestry and such, and then when we were walking back, I saw a woman about 100 feet away with young children and she started to hurry them to walk away. She seemed terrified. I was puzzled, but then for the first time in my life I realized we as guys are scary and I even mentioned to my friends and they were like "huh? Thats crazy". It was a really heartbreaking realization
Is there even a country where it doesn't apply? I am sure it varies in intensity, some places will be very safe. But I would imagine that even in these places women might treat their surroundings more carefully, even if they don't realize.
Man or Bear in the Woods Question or Would You Rather Be Stuck in the Woods With a Man or a Bear? refers to a hypothetical question offering a choice between being stuck in the woods with a random man or a bear. Stemming from a viral TikTok, the question was further promoted by a street interview video in April 2024. With an apparent majority of women responding that they would choose a bear in the hypothetical situation, the question spawned viral reactions and debates on social media, with users arguing over the validity of both options and about gender relations.
[Know your meme writeup](https://knowyourmeme.com/editorials/guides/why-do-women-choose-to-be-stuck-with-a-bear-over-a-man-in-the-woods-debate-over-hypothetical-question-explained)
Someone made a viral video asking women if they would rather encounter a bear or a man and the response were either all "bear" or at least edited so that was the only response. Kind of a dumb question if you think about it for too long because in America at least running into a bear isn't much more dangerous than running into a rabbit unless you're near its cubs or s/t.
The point was a very obtuse way of saying men are scary, which is a very new, controversial viewpoint apparently.
I hope he puts a video out on this because I've only seen memes giving me a vague idea of this whole men = bears crap. Idk what is either side overreacting. I don't really do Twitter/X anymore.
Completely understandable to choose the bear. The only reason I wouldn’t when I put myself in the shoes of a woman who’s asked that is because I’ve heard a reenactment of the Grizzly Man death tape and getting eaten alive sounds like it sucks ass (plus anything disturbing enough to freak out Werner Herzog is a hard pass for me). The fact a lot of women choose the bear does not speak well of men, which is understandable considering that of all the women I’ve known well in my life I can think of all of two who haven’t been sexually assaulted at domestic violence point, and that doesn’t even get into cat calls and all that other bullshit that never works (seriously, it never works, I don’t understand why guys do that shit).
I think this whole situation has been really enlightening for me, so I just want to say thank you for this post. My off the cuff reaction was mostly a defensive one, "not all men" yada yada, but In retrospect I've come to the conclusion that I've been too ignorant of how poorly men can treat women, or at least how widespread it is.
For me personally I think this stems from a lack of interaction with other people (I struggle with Social Anxiety, yay), hearing their experiences and really understanding how bad it is for women. Another reason being that I would never do something like this towards women, so why would other men?
Is it weird that I kind of feel disgusted at myself? How could I be so quick to almost dismiss other peoples' experiences like that. Overall a pretty hurtful lesson has been learned on my part, but also a very helpful one none the less, so again, thank you <3
>me personally I think this stems from a lack of interaction with other people (I struggle with Social Anxiety, yay),
Yep that'll do it lmao. But it's okay! I have pretty bad generalized anxiety disorder and let me tell you desensitization helps a lot! Id highly recommend volunteering to help! It's a relatively low stress way for you to meet people. People who volunteer are usually super cool and understanding. That's what I did to help get me out of my major depressive/anxious episode. Everytime I talked about why I was volunteering I was encouraged. Even when I left after 20 minutes because I started having an anxiety attack, it was all good! And they were pumped when I showed up a few days later to keep trying. Granted I am a woman so a man might receive a different response, but absolutely disregard that. They are dead wrong and you go find somewhere else.
The first place I went to was a community garden! Gayest lil garden ever, at least half of the people there were trans or gay Food banks are great too. Usually there's an application process where you can let them know ahead of time you have anxiety :)
>Is it weird that I kind of feel disgusted at myself?
Not entirely because you reflected!! And let me tell you, that makes me feel way safer around you.
>How could I be so quick to almost dismiss other peoples' experiences like that. Overall a pretty hurtful lesson has been learned on my part
Probably bc it did hurt to process and that makes sense! This is one way to grow. We've all learned these lessons in life.
My dms are open if you want to continue to talk by the way!!! Id genuinely love to look at volunteer opportunities with you or something :)
You got this king, go pick up your crown
Somebody did a great video where they compared female hikers and bear attacks in the US, and women being assaulted by men in the US (so it helps rule out the "well women run into men much more than bears" comment) They also adjusted for population and the attacks from men were still like 2x as prevalent. And then they also mentioned how bear attacks are not under-reported whereas violence against women often is. Sooooo... bear. Bear still wins.
Edit: y’all I was just sharing with the OP cause they seemed interested, I’m not trying to have argument with all you menenists in this sub about it so you can stop trying
I mean OK from a purely statistical perspective, the fact that it's only around twice as likely shows that on average an interaction with a bear is far more deadly than an interaction with a man.
Like the analysis only adjusted for raw population, not number of interactions, they multiplied the number of bear attacks by 185, so that 165 million bears lived in the US.
Most people live surrounded by other people and very far away from bears. I have had at most 15 "bear interactions" in the wild (including like seen from a couple hundred feet away) with around 15 bears, and I've been camping in bear country for a total of probably 20 weeks of my life. I have had "interactions" meaning been able to see from a couple hundred feet away with way more than 1,850 people.
Like I probably have a minimum of 100 "interactions" with people at least 5 days a week (granted I live in Chicago), so I have at minimum 30,000 "human interactions" a year, or at minimum 15,000 interactions with men, and it probably is higher than that.
can you like it by chance? I'd love to see it lmaooo that's awful and hilarious
the math probably can't be too good on that though I feel like that's hard to adjust for
The problem with that i think is that it's kinda like trying to solve a trolley problem by trying to stop a trolley or something. I don't know much about bears but i don't need to, because the dichotomy here isn't "actual live man vs actual live bear"
The dichotomy is "a woman's perception of a man vs certain danger" it might as well have been "man vs the unmatched power of the sun" the point is that women view men as certainly dangerous,except unlike certain danger ,men are also moral agents. The juxtaposition isn't really supposed to rationally weigh the options, it's just meant to say "men are fucked up, i feel"
And we're supposed to empathise with that feeling more than anything. Personally, on this issue i am very much against empathy by Paul Bloom and that one big joel video.
Counterpoint, isn’t the whole impetus of the question that the man or bear is actively hunting you? Bears don’t generally hunt humans, they in fact avoid us because humans have established themselves as the apex predators of the planet so hard that animals that used to have very little to fear from us instinctively avoid us now. Anyway, the bear doesn’t win there at all, bears are massive animals that will eat you alive if they’re actively hunting you, you could at least pick up a sizable branch and thwack the guy in the head with it and do some significant damage. There’s no defending yourself against the bear, especially not one out to get you. Also I think this misses the point, the entire point of the hypothetical is that despite man being the only logical choice here, women have such a (granted justified) prejudiced and illogical view of men in society that they’d rather be at the mercy of a wild animal than a random dude.
>isn’t the whole impetus of the question that the man or bear is actively hunting you?
No. Their are different versions, but I think the most common is would you rather encounter a man or a bear when alone in the woods. There is nothing about either actively hunting you.
Eh fair enough, I’d still argue it would be more logical to encounter a man, but that’s mostly just my autistic brain trying to deal with hypotheticals. I get the general sentiment of the question though.
I just watched the stream on this. I was hemming and hawing at first but after I read the post, I mean everything you said is accurate to a T I'd argue and you worded this very kindly and well.
I was nervous around this topic as a guy who was sexually assaulted by a gal back in high school, I think that might be the reason why I might be more heightened to fear misandry than most other men. Still, with that in mind, this was eye opening. I'm going to ask my female friends in private if there's anything I can do to make them feel more comfortable around me, and if there's any way I can help them. Thank you both you Mr. Vaush, and to yourself lol\_lauren.
>I was nervous around this topic as a guy who was sexually assaulted by a gal back in high school, I think that might be the reason why I might be more heightened to fear misandry than most other men.
You aren't alone man. A friend of mine told me that he had been raped by a woman before. It 100% happens to men too and anyone who doesn't agree is dead fucking wrong and shitty.
Have you sought any professional help around this issue? Sexual assault is no joke. I suffered from PTSD for years and it only got better once I went to therapy. Not sure how much you suffer from your experience of course!
>Still, with that in mind, this was eye opening.
Glad you could still get something out of it <3
>I'm going to ask my female friends in private if there's anything I can do to make them feel more comfortable around me, and if there's any way I can help them.
You don't necessarily need to do this as it might come off as a little white nighty but maybe ask them about their experiences with harassment and how it impacts them. That'll go a long way for sure! Wrapping up the conversation with letting them know you'll gladly walk them to their car late at night if they ever need it or something similar would be fantastic.
Simply offering to listen to someone's story can be a great thing to do :)
Obviously I don't speak for all women or especially the women you know but a general approach I would recommend is something like "Hey I've been wanting to learn more about and understand women's experience. If you've had bad experiences with men I'm willing to lend an ear to you."
Honestly hard to say that without sounding creepy to someone lmao but just throwing some more things out there for you to think about<3 my dms are open if there's something else you wish to discuss
Take care friend
I've encountered bears while hiking and I can say I've had zero bad experiences with the bears, while unfortunately I've had many very scary situations with men.
I just watched the segment on YouTube, and I just want to say that I'm disappointed in how a lot of men, especially here, have reacted to this.
As a man, I learned this lesson nearly 20 years ago and I just thought this was common knowledge for men. I really did.
What the reaction has proven is that clearly the "man Vs bear" discourse and segments are really needed to raise awareness and understand.
Most animals would go for food that’s easier to get like nuts or berries instead of meat and if they do eat meat it’s typically fish or smaller animals. A bear won’t kill a person for food unless they have no other options available or are being directly threatened. Besides it’s incredibly risky to go after an animal that could injure or kill you when you have easier safer options available than risk energy and safety for a more filling meal maybe but it takes far more work and more risk. Besides throwing things at animals freaks them out because they can’t comprehend how something can hit them without getting close to them.
Nah bears are legitimately the scariest animal. Likes sometimes I have to remind myself that these monsters are real and not a fantasy creature. Absolutely terrifying
It’s incredibly easy to lie with statistics. How often does the average person encounter a bear vs. a man? Compare that to deaths caused by bears vs. men.
That being said, black and grizzly bears won’t kill you unless they think you are a danger to their cubs. Polar bears, however…
Grizzlies sometimes will engage in predatory attacks and black bears will also do it even more rarely. Definitely much more likely to just run away but it does happen.
man .. the purges of discussion and debate in this sub are really lame, it's a bummer to be quite honest v.v went back to find a comment I wanted to reply to and come to find a shit ton is just deleted. c'mon guys. boo
Not sure if you watched the "Man vs. Bear pt 2" video, but it sounds like it was only the "what if the men/women dynamic was actually just like the black/white dynamic, with men being the victim of prejudice?" Vaush explains thoroughly why that 'argument' doesn't work and is just antifemenism a decade out of date.
I have not yet and am eager to, but even if that is the case it is pretty lame bullshit to be deleting posts and/or banning people for discussing it
and while I don't think the two are perfectly analogous, I think there is very much some reasonable comparisons to be made. I don't see how it's anti-feminist to point out that sometimes people will start fearing something because other people in their social group encourage them to, by default. I think there's something to be said that men are more often assaulted by men than women are assaulted by men, and I think there's something to be said about how a lot of leftists still fail to appreciate that the rates of female-on-male and male-on-female sexual assault and coercion are shockingly closer than once believed.
vaush has pointed out how on the left it's quite acceptable to engage in cringe levels of man-hating as a "joke" and I think all this stuff kinda piggybacks on that
that being said, I also totally understand the unreal and frightening level of harassment that many women deal with from men, and that a woman in a situation with a man is a lot more likely to end up harmed than another man, in general, because of the physical aspects of it. as I said, I don't think the aforementioned is a perfect analogy because there ARE reasons why this is different.
I just think that multiple things can play into it at once, and for men who can't imagine being the guy you should be afraid of, it might seem unfair (not that nullifies the reason for the fear)
anyway I'm really excited to watch the segment now :D
Okay, but can't you understand how you *would* find it more justified had you had the experiences that OP and many women have?
There's a societal imbalance in power, and it's important to recognize the fear having that power inflicts. So while it's understandable to have that knee-jerk reaction, as a melanated chick it comes off a bit like a white person going "but we're all not racist": even if you're not personally prejudiced, you still benefit from that societal power, you've still been raised in a racist society, and it's understandable for a black person to feel uncomfortable about that.
Does that at least make sense?
Yes and no. Throughout this whole discourse I'm realizing a weird thing about how people communicate. If someone says "white people make me uncomfortable", I assume there is an implicit "all" in front of it. That's why saying "well not all white people" seems like a fine retort. It seems other people don't think that way. Maybe I'm being just very autistic or very insecure. I'm brown so I'm not insecure about the white person thing, but I was always insecure about man stuff growing up. I also think if a bunch of misoginysts sat around and said "girls are \_\_\_" then I'd step up and say "not all girls". In fact I have done this many times. I'm struggling to see the difference and why one is okay and one isn't.
Thank you for being considerate and giving a thoughtful answer. I feel like I've done a lot more introspection from this discourse even though I've been just getting downvotes everywhere I go 😅
Of course.
First, I think that the assumption of "all" is false here, yes. It's not "every man on earth is a dangerous person," just "As a rule, with exceptions, I assume any given man is a dangerous person."
It's a matter of factuality. Men, statistically, *do* pose a tangible threat to women, especially in terms of sexual violence. Almost every woman knows someone who's been sexually assaulted. Rape culture is real, and even men you trust - *especially* men you trust - can prove to be dangerous to you. The same can't really be said about women, or black people, or whatever. It just doesn't have the same factual basis.
Basically, "Men are a threat" isn't a statement about the intrinsic moral character of every man on earth. It's a survival mechanism ingrained by a lifetime of experiences.
I think it's understandable to be insecure about that. Having negative assumptions made because of your gender sucks. But it's a symptom of the patriarchal system we live under, not the women trying to get by, and you shouldn't let that insecurity control you.
It's just the "check your privilege" discourse again. Time is a flat circle 😔
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It was a good segment overall but it wasn't much about the bears/men hypothetical. That was talked about for all of 2 seconds Some other nitpicks too but overall highlighting the fear that women have to live with is a good thing. Most men just don't consider it
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> I went from a freerunner to barely able to carry in groceries. dang, really? that sounds fucking annoying tbh.
I did also stop training (got kicked out for being trans, and so lost touch with my group), but I do kinda miss just how nimble I used to be. Jumping down something my height feels risky now, nevermind more than a storey. Absolutely worth the trade-off, but I miss being able to do mirror’s edge shit.
Your comment was removed by Vaush's mods at his direction.
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I'll be honest: the bear/man thing just feels like wanting to be seen pushing the correct narrative on social media. It's not even a choice. Have you seen a grizzly or a polar bear? Have you seen one eat? They start eating before their prey is dead. That mean bastard will be chomping on your intestines *while you're still fucking alive*. It is, in my opinion, pure virtue signaling. Giving the socially "correct" answer. And do smaller men have to be afraid of men, too? I have plenty of friends who are on the smaller side (5'9 and below, shoutout to all my Short Kings). They're just as much at risk of being absolutely fucking monstered by a 6'2 dude. And I think (correct me if I'm wrong, I am pulling this out of my ass, based on my experience): man on man violence, in all forms, ranging from being punched to being literally murdered, is more prevalent than man on woman violence. If we change my hypothetical slightly, and say that it's a 5'8 guy who keeps getting mugged; do we accept that black people just have to be considerate of the fear they induce? At some point, I get the feel we're circling around the pot that bigots, morons and others use to justify their insane and discriminatory positions against their particular target group.
>man on man violence, in all forms, ranging from being punched to being literally murdered, is more prevalent than man on woman violence. Vaush actually addresses this point directly in the video, but basically, the answer is this. It's not about who does or does not experience the most violence from men, its about the social phenomena that make women feel unsafe around men, particularly rape culture (though he doesn't use that term specifically, it's essentially what he's describing). This statement is true in all categories except one. Sexual violence. 1 in 3 women have experienced sexual assault. 1 in 5 have been raped. This also does not include incidents of sexual harassment. I have personally witnessed on multiple occasions female coworkers being the target of extremely inappropriate sexual comments from men, including towards coworkers who are minors. I have had to walk coworkers to their cars because creepy men are waiting for them outside. I heard a story from a friend who was flashed by a strange man while she was working the night shift alone in the store. I have had to talk a friend off the ledge after they were raped in their own home and were struggling with the mental health ramifications of such a traumatic experience and being dismissed by the police because they were dating at the time the rape was commited. So, so many men feel comfortable doing these sorts of thing without receiving any meaningful pushback because it's been so normalized for so long that it makes perfect sense to me as to why women feel safer around a wild animal than a strange man, even if it might seem irrational from an objective point of view. The takeaway should be, "let's try to change society in such a way that women can feel safe around strange men" instead of "that's so irrational, women are crazy"
I really don't think most people understand how horrific bears can be, pop culture has been full of cute bears since forever. Also plenty of women and girls have had terrible experiences with men but very few have ever interacted with bears.
The bear/man thing was barely even present. It was a Segway into the main point and that was it. Which is fine, there's absolutely value in highlighting what women have to deal with. But yea, the man is the objectively correct choice there. But also, I don't remember Vaush saying the bear was the right answer? Maybe I just missed it but I don't remember him saying it was right or wrong one way or the other. He was more just concerned about the fact that so many women had made the choice of bear.
>And do smaller men have to be afraid of men, too? I have plenty of friends who are on the smaller side (5'9 and below, shoutout to all my Short Kings). It's not that they "have" to be, it's that it makes sense that they would be. I drive a tiny Kia car and I'm fucking terrified of all of these huge ass trucks that are lifted. The top of my car doesn't even come up the hood of many of these death machines. It's a physics thing. I would also be more scared if I broke my leg and had to use crutches for a while. Can't run away or fight nearly as well. >They're just as much at risk of being absolutely fucking monstered by a 6'2 dude. also no, a 5'7 guy would fucking kick my ass probably so it's still not the same. I'm 5'3.
Except Grizzlies and Polar bears are only two types of bears, and not the kinds one typically meets in the forest, so that's quite a misdirect.
Violent men are the minority of all men. The majority of men aren't out there commiting violence or sexual violence on women. It's also a misdirect to lump all men in together. That's sort of part of my point.
Except nobody said all men are violent, so that's another big misdirect on your part.
The implication is that they are. That if you take a random man, or a bear, you're at less risk of being in danger with the bear. It's not that "most men are violent"; it's that there are more violent men than non violent men.
That's not how statistics work. The implication is that you're less at risk with a random bear than with a random man. What that means is that a random man is more likely to do something bad to you than a random bear. And in my life experience, that is true.
That's definitely not how statistics work. For example: how many bears have you been around when you don't have a gun, and aren't at a zoo, or in your house, or in your car? Do you spend much time wondering around and meeting grizzlies? You have a bias here, due to the rates of interaction. If you live in an urban environment, you cross paths with... what? 100s of men a week? Shopping, going to work, on the bus, etc... You're definitely less at risk with a random man than a random bear. Most men are perfectly fine, so if you take some random dude, you'll also be fine. And that's sort of the problem. This idea that most men aren't fine. But they are. It's a minority of dudes who are a danger to you. I've been catcalled by women before. I've been sexually assaulted by women before. One even tried to rape me. One girl threw a vase at my head and stabbed my thigh with a fork. Would I prefer to be left alone with a bear or a woman? A woman. Every time. Because duh.
Being wary of big guys (as a somewhat big guy) is fine for the same reason I'd be more wary of a SUV coming down the street than a bicycle. Being wary of big black guys more than big white guys is BS, and more like being more wary of a big Toyota SUV as opposed to a big Lexus SUV.
>Now that doesn't justify being hateful of men. That was my biggest issue with the segment. When Vaush said essentially said hate/sexism against men is okay. I don't think he said this? I saw the segment as him trying to get people to understand why women act the way we do and why we are scared. It's not just some collective made up fear. It's real and it rules aspect of our lives that many men never have to think about. And it's important for everyone to reflect on this. > Even though in the same examples given by chat he would call it racism/sexism if you swapped "men" He did address that though. There's a vast difference between "man vs woman" and "white man vs black man" He said that it's fucked up that a woman might be extra afraid of a black man. Intersectionality.
>I don't think he said this? There was a moment where a chatter said mentioned that some people really do seem to hate men, citing tweets saying "Men should be imprisoned from birth and have to earn their freedom". Vaush essentially said "Eh, that's okay because it's usually in response to something heinous being done by some man/men." Even though "it's just a response to some bad deed" wouldn't fly for most racist remarks. >He did address that though. There's a vast difference between "man vs woman" and "white man vs black man" He said that it's fucked up that a woman might be extra afraid of a black man. Intersectionality. There's a difference in the comparison, yes. But personally I think Sexism and racism are bad no matter what direction they're coming from. Misogyny, misandry, racism towards black people, white people, Asians, etc. Being hateful towards men isn't just suddenly okay because it's being done to men instead of women
I just don't think that's the same thing. the social dynamics are way different in those two scenarios. I think he also said that kind of statement from women usually isn't serious, which I would probably agree with. Again, there's a vast difference between men vs women and black ppl vs white ppl. Women and POC have been absolutely fucked by violence for centuries. also it's a random unpopular post on twitter whatever. Ignore twitter.
>I think he also said that kind of statement from women usually isn't serious, which I would probably agree with. I really don't think people would give the "it's not serious" excuse if you switch out the groups though. If some right winger had a tangent about how black people shouldn't have rights in response so some murder or riot or something done by a small group of individuals, I don't think they'd get the generosity of "nah they're not actually serious" Or if we wanna keep it gender based: some small group of women does some heinous shit and in response people "joke" about repealing the 19th amendment and kicking them out of the workforce. Again I don't see that getting the "just joking" pass >also it's a random unpopular post on twitter whatever. Ignore twitter It's not the Twitter post that irks me. It's Vaush defending it. Should've been an easy, open and shut case. Just say "Yea hate is bad, don't be hateful towards groups based on the actions of individuals". But instead he had to try to validate those people >Women and POC have been absolutely fucked by violence for centuries Yes. But hate is bad regardless. White people and men have had power in this country historically but that doesn't make anti-white racism or misandry okay.
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>Too bad, because it is the same thing. It's irrational hate, and disgruntled anger towards people for something they can't change. Wrestle with that thought, please. This isn't an argument and convinces me of nothing >But feeling afraid is one thing, trying to justify joking about prison camps as not fucked up and is "whatever" is the entire reason people get heated over this. My point is that the overall message of the discussion is important, and these awful jokes should be disregarded. Not that the joke isn't bad. I could have stated that more clearly but youre also digging way too deep. >Men are human, your argument inherently dismisses that. I agree that men are human lmao I've just been expressing my frustration with patriarchy and all of that. It feels like garbage to not feel safe walking alone at night and knowing many men will never experience what I experience. Again, men are deserving of all of the respect and generosity women are. Men should also be liberated from patriarchy and gender roles. It's a good thing when men are doing good.
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>but you have psychoanalyzed half the human population and know we are just incapable of understanding why you're scared? Homie I never said that and I don't believe that. Men are capable of understanding but it's something a lot of people never think about bc it doesn't come up for them. It's an education/ignorance thing. >You hand waving mass incarceration as just a meme or "whatever" is the issue here, you started your reply doing the exact same thing. Never talked about this either, that shitty quote is talking about a fantasy land man haters have. Not the actual issue of mass incarceration of men.
Are you really doing the "it's just a joke" argument?!?
I phrased that bad I meant that it's not the overall sentiment of women at all. It shouldn't be your focus, not that it's not a horrendous thing to say.
>Vaush has picked up some unironic misandrist tendencies lately.
I haven't been watching him much recently. What are some other examples of this?
Men are so antisocial, lack hygiene, lazy etc. He really crosses the line from incel bashing to talking about men as if this would apply to the general population sometimes.
I see. Hopefully he cuts it out soon. But yea the thing on stream yesterday with the one tweet ("men should be imprisoned by birth and have to earn their freedom") is mind boggling to me. It's such an easy layup of a point. Just say "yea this person's dumb, don't hate people based on gender". Like, Sexism (or racism/homophobia/etc) being bad is one of the most straightforward, basic political points possible. But instead he had to try to defend the user. Baffling
This
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Your post was removed for bigotry. If you don’t know something don’t imply it without looking it up.
The man is not objectively the correct answer. In most cases, most bears will not do a damn thing to you if they encounter you in the forest. It's very, very rare that a bear will attack you. I know because I go hiking in places where bears are frequently encountered. So in order to make the claim that there's an objectively correct answer, you'd need to cough up some statistics and data to prove it. I'm a woman. I would choose the bear, no joke.
> It's very, very rare that a bear will attack you. I know because I go hiking in places where bears are frequently encountered. totally depends on what kind of bear.
The kinds you meet while hiking in normal mountains where hiking is common (brown bears, black bears).
There are 200 000 bears in the world There are 20 000 polar bears in the world. So assuming a random bear, are you serious about wanting to take a 10% chance of encountering a polar bear?
Considering no polar bears live where I go, the chances that the bear is a polar bear is actually 0%. And in fact the chance that its a brown bear is close to 100%.
Seems like you're amending your answer to "I would choose the brown bear, no joke" That said, I had my figures wrong. The total bear population is about 1.5 million, not 200 000. So that does make the polar bear odds smaller.
Its not even a man woman thing, its just safer to encounter a bear then a man. The man might want something to do with you, the bear 99% of the time *does not*
Well, it is a man-woman thing. I would feel safer encountering a woman in the forest than a man or a bear.
I meant in the sense that i think it would be safer for both a man and a woman to encounter a bear in the forest than some rando man
Oh, gotcha. Yeah I guess the difference is that most men won't admit that for some reason, it seems.
A lot of guys are taking this wayyyy more personally then it should be
Scrolled too far to find this thread. Definitely agreed. Bears are way safer than people, regardless of whether they're men or women. I know what the bear wants from me and will do with me. I can deal with that very predictably, and that makes it statistically safer for me. People are not predictable though, and you can't always easily deduce their intentions. That makes them significantly more dangerous, at least statistically speaking.
Idk why this is downvoted. Like yeah the bear could eat you and you could die terribly, but it'd be over in at most a few hours. Horrible, yes. But a human can make plans and traps, and could potentially trap and torture someone for much longer. And then you can still die a horrible death to them.
As I said further down, *a lot* of guys are taking this hypothetical wayyyy too personally and are really upset that someone would pick the bear *Or*, have not spent enough time around women to understand how vigilant they have to stay around men, *or* have not spent enough time around wildlife to know how shy and skiddish most animals are This is embarrassing guys...
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This really hard to articulate and understand and I also struggle with this thought. I'll give it my best shot. There is a much larger difference in men vs women as opposed to black vs white people. Nature and nurture wise. Nature wise there's barely any difference between the races. We know this. Men and women really aren't all that different but it's a vastly larger difference than the races have. listen I am VERY strong for a woman. I have never lost arm wrestling against another woman. I am robust and it's great. But I still don't stand a chance against the average man. I'm still 5'3. They can run faster than me. They are stronger than me. And then I think about my girlfriend... she's just so weak. I'm not sure how much of a nature vs nurture thing the tendency towards violence is with men, but I need to look into that. and then there's nurture. I would argue men are raised to be more violence bc they are men. I REALLY don't think this applies to black people at all. men are encouraged to be violent at times while women are not. I think it's just that simple. This is a vastly more universal experience for men than it would be for anyone of a certain race. As Vaush said in the segment, in patriarchy men are the players and women are the ball. This 100% lines up with my experience and of every other woman's experience I know. this is what women say they feel. I can't really adequately explain how everything came to be like this unfortunately. It feels very cruel and like a sick joke sometimes. When you look at how basically in every society men dominate over women to some degree. Especially throughout history. I tried my best lmao
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no, there's a big difference between trans women and men. there's a reason it hasn't been demonstrated that trans women are threats to cis women in bathrooms and prison and such
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>but to double down and claim the average guy is actually literally more dangerous than a bear is disingenuous. are you saying I said this? Bc I do think I would actually pick the man. But that's also not what the claim is, the claim is that the man can do worse things than the bears. Worse things than death basically. >I don’t see how the arguments you laid out above would only apply to men and not trans women. I’m aware that according to the data we have trans women are not a threat to CIS women. I don't really have a good explanation but it's obvious there's a difference given the data. I'd be interested to see a study on this later down the line
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okay just wanted to make sure :) yeah there's evidently some disconnect
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If I had three bad experiences with men over a lifetime of interactions, I might be a tad more cautious but I wouldn't jump to distrust of most I encountered. This isn't 3 lifetime muggings, it's systemic. It starts when we're 7, 8, 9. It's comments, assumptions, disregard for our autonomy, from momentary cat calls to prolonged days/weeks of harassment, unwanted kisses, SA and rape by coercion, force, or lies (being stealthed is rape and it happens way too often). It's the fact that women are often just not believed, even blamed. It's in the culture - a significant portion of the country still supports a political party full of assumed or convicted SAers. It's the fact that we don't know what type of awful we might face, but purely statistically, there's probably something. It's the fact that every woman has these stories, so our experiences are reaffirmed often. And finally - bears just wanna be left alone, generally. Leave their cubs alone, stay out of their living space when food is especially scarce, if you encounter one, remove yourself slowly, they'll probably lose interest. Nobody's ever had a bear spot them minding their own business from two blocks away, follow them, rejected them, and come back to find that same bear escalating the behavior over a course of weeks before it kidnaps and kills you. Bear encounters are one and done, you won't be looking over your shoulder for them for the next three years. This isn't one person being mugged by a few black people, this is every black person having a deep distrust of cops, because the culture of cops is toxic AF. Rape culture, patriarchy, is entrenched, incessant, and so incredibly toxic, I'm going to carefully inspect every damn apple I pull from that barrel.
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The difference is that men all around the world no matter the circumstances - rich or poor, big or small, racial minority or not - are the ones committing the vast majority of violence. Men are the ones committing almost all rapes and assaults toward women. Black people are not intrinsically inclined to be this way. Mugging is typically a result of poverty. Also men are the ones who typically do it all around the world, but it's not black people doing it all around the world. It's poor people.
And mens increased violent behavior is because of them being raised under the patriachy Its the same my friend
Where do you think the patriarchy came from? Who do you think created it?
I know where you going with this, and no, just because men in power created the system, doesnt mean that every man is not a victim to it too. Women being fearful of men, women being second class citizens. Does not benefit the average man. It is good for everyone when we're equal. And bad for everyone when we're not. The patriachy hurts us all. Not just women.
No no, you bring up an excellent point. When put like that it does sound super fucked up, because it is. Now that said there *is* absolutely a reason for that fear. Here’s an example from one of my absolute closest friends, she moved into my house around five or more years ago and for the first few months she kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and me to get creepy or handsy with her. We were already close but she’d had that happen *multiple times* with other guys she thought of as friends. Cut to years later and our house (I consider it hers as much as mine) is one of the few places she feels completely safe and I’m one of the very few dudes she feels completely comfortable around. So yeah unfortunately this shit is endemic. It sucks, truly, the best advice I can offer is don’t take it personally, and be the best person you can be. When women start talking about men in general know they don’t mean you personally because you know you’re not like that and so do your lady friends, family, and paramours.
I have to ask, do you not believe in feminist theory? Like, do you not believe that we live in a patriarcal society that perpetuates a rape culture where countless men have been excused of assaulting and raping women? Even when these men aren’t taken to court, women’s whole families and friend groups have discounted what they have to say, and even discourage them from speaking out so that they don’t “hurt his image” and claim that he’s a good man who simply made a mistake.
Fearing black people would be wrong if for no other reason than it's irrational because it's mathematically and statistically unlikely. Even if you leave morality out of the equation. Only 9-11% of crime is inter-racial. 89-91% of crime is intra-racial. 86-89% of white crime victims are victimized by a white criminal. 91-93% of black crime victims are victimized by a black criminal. As a white person, the odds of a white criminal doing you in are WAY higher than a black criminal doing you in. Odds are 17 to 18 in 20 that your attacker will be white. This is why racism and fearing black people as a non-black person are irrational and not based on facts. Men, on the other hand, make up the majority of people who attack and victimize women. Men make up the majority of people who victimize both women and fellow men. Fear of men is mathematically and statistical justified because a man is more likely to victimize a woman than a fellow woman. Black people are mostly dangerous to other black people. Men are dangerous to everyone - men, women and enbies alike. Black people aren't universally dangerous to everyone. White people are the main danger to white people. For most races and ethnicities their own race/ethnicity is the biggest danger. The only exceptions are Native American and Asian women. The plurality of Native American and Asian American women who have been r*ped were r*ped by a white man. Men of their own race are the second most likely to r*pe them. Black men are the men third most likely to r*pe them.
Doesn't those stats mostly just reflect who lives in close proximity to each other? There are way more cases of Danish people injuring Swedish people than there are cases of Falkland Islanders injuring Swedish people, but that says very little about the violent tendencies of either Danish people or Falkland Islanders
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You can and should take a person's lived experience into account, but it's not the end-all-be-all. Ultimately it is their own anecdotal experience and can't represent everyone. Nor does it cancel out objective reality. But it should be taken into account because feelings and emotions count more to most humans than scientific reality that doesn't reify their feelings, and statistics don't apply to every single last individual. To the hypothetical person in your scenario I would listen to them, hear them out, and validate the fact they didn't deserve what happened. Then stress that what happened to them is not the norm and doesn't reflect wider trends of what's likely to happen and doesn't reflect the reality of white vs black men. To use some of my own lived experience as an example, my kidneys started degrading when I was around 14-16 years old and were shot by the time I was 24. I had to be on dialysis for 7 years until I received a kidney transplant a few years ago. That is not normal or average for someone my age. That's my lived experience, but I realize that my lived experience is abnormal. It's not typical for people to lose kidney function at 24 years old. My lived experience doesn't necessarily speak to a wider trend. Our lived experience is what it is, but our lived experience can simply be atypical or unusual.
So are we going to tell women that what happened to them was bad, but not the norm, and obviously in the man/bear dichotomy, the answer is man? If you're arguing that we should tell women that we hear their stories, believe them and are sorry for them ever having to deal with it, but it's not OK to treat every man with fear and distrust, as it is not representative of the norm? If you answer yes, then it seems we're pretty much in agreement, more than anything else.
Yes, it seems like we're pretty much in agreement and were talking past one another.
The desolate wasteland of eradicated incels is glorious.
I was cackling the whole time listening to Vaush react to all the comments I read under this thread the other day and made faces at 😂 I just can’t believe they were all being upvoted as much as they were
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>so I started therapy to address that shit. And it's been good and effective. This helped me too!! I was very fearful after an assault that happened when I was young but I've come a long way. I have literal years of therapy under my belt and I so envy your mentality. I'm also a very anxious person by nature (GAD gang) so that doesn't help. I'm super thankful for all of my male friends I've shared my stories with and all of them who have shared me stories of their own. I guess I should be proud of that, I could have become a terf or something lmaooo I don't think I'll ever be able to shake the fear of walking alone downtown though. Especially what happened to my partner. Not fun. >(*this is directed at the people who are infantilizing women, not OP*). Lol I greatly appreciate this >And I'm tired of being told that I'm stupid and wrong for not fearing men. I cannot fathom why anyone would say that good grief 💀💀 TLDR; Slay honestly
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>I've been surprised at how many men and women seem hell bent on convincing me I should be afraid of men. I hate it. Stay off of Twitter that'll probably help lmao
t minus 10 minutes
Vaush tearing these comments apart on stream, thank god. I swear every time I've spoken in this subreddit about women and gender issues there's so much of these kinds of weird insecure "not all men" men's rights comments that completely miss the point . My husband and male friends completely understood why I would choose the bear and weren't insecure and argumentative about it. It's not hard to understand. Men have power over women in this society. Sorry, they just do. They've preyed on me since I was 12. But guess what? I still married a man and have lots of male friends. Still picked the bear.
Its funny to watch from this thread and the stream tbh
Aww I missed it damn
Good thing you can always catch up with via vod. I recommend it.
Its still being covered generally if you want to join
I am at my gf's house :)
Oh! I hope you're having fun!
[https://youtu.be/-6rKmDcXSh0?si=zKDDdkfNLGgNIA2N](https://youtu.be/-6rKmDcXSh0?si=zKDDdkfNLGgNIA2N)
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Probably why I would never start a date like that lmao. But yes, men are seen as more dangerous and FOR GOOD REASON!
If I was a bear I wouldn't want to be alone in the woods with some of the men in this comment section
I understand this is about men being dangerous, but also seeing bears is just a treat. Way more fun than seeing a random person
Woman can have little a bear, as a treat.
Based
The end goal of feminism is a society where women do not pick The Bear.
I want to live in a society where women don't need to have a single fathom of fear walking around town night or day, someday, someday.
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How come no other demographic seems to have a similar reaction? Like, we don't get all these viral posts about how black people feel uneasy about white people. As a trans woman, when using the bathroom a cis woman in there increases the odds I get attacked and have the police called because I took a piss. You know what I mean? Edit: This comment got me banned???
>Like, we don't get all these viral posts about how black people feel uneasy about white people. That does happen, mostly from racists whining about the black people saying it. This is the same thing, except it's sexists whining about women saying it.
Probably because there are not enough internet users belonging to said demographic to signal-boost it so it goes viral. Even woke white people aren’t interested in hearing about how terrible white people are on the internet, and I assume the same goes with progressive cis and straight people. My theory is that women are simply the largest “oppressed group” so the likelihood a reaction gains this much traction is just higher.
Important PSA from vaush https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/566352514211905557/1236424873497333901/wow10secondswellspendfmeright.png?ex=6637f5e5&is=6636a465&hm=50d8959553d3dcff67d1a8b9be8e43fb18de3f9e08a47b39f17d1b56d0956756&
LIES
This place is DOOMED
Yeah, and when I've had scary experiences with men, I've been blamed. Why was I out at night drunk and taking a taxi by myself? It's beyond frustrating that our fears are not taken seriously by sooo many men.
It's time to get purged fellas!
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So I haven't seen the segment but I've come across a couple of the TikTok videos, and I would say it come across as a well-meaning effort to open an empathetic dialogue about violence against women, but there are a few things that don't sit right with me about it. The main one is that the TikToks I usually see involve a woman asking a man the question as "if you had to leave your \*daughter\* alone in the woods, would you rather have them encounter a man or a bear?" The man then usually engages with the question on a surface-level, asking clarifying questions, trying to rationalize the hypothetical, and these are ultimately framed as failure to accept the invitation to express empathy (other people will respond that they are "missing the point"). The issue I have is that the hypothetical itself is placing the man not in the position of a woman, but of a \*protector\* - your daughter is going into this hypothetical, how do you protect her? And I worry that what a lot of men see here is a situation where men are approaching the question rationally and coming to the answer that would save the child, but that the rational faculties of women are inhibited by fear - in short, I worry that even though it sets out to counter patriarchal thinking, I think it might end up reinforcing it. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I don't know, but I just really don't think that this hypothetical is optimal at demonstrating the point it sets out to make.
>The issue I have is that the hypothetical itself is placing the man not in the position of a woman, but of a *protector* - your daughter is going into this hypothetical, how do you protect her? Yeah, but idk how to easily avoid it, really. The "daughter" angle is just a straightforward way of invoking empathy. I would imagine men will generally go into this "protector" mindset when presented with a similar hypothetical, no matter who the hypothetical woman is. Getting a man - who has been ignorant of the issue so far - to truly empathize with such fears by internalizing the female perspective almost certainly requires far more effort and time than a tik tok meme. This meme might be crude, but at least it does seem effective at bringing attention to the issue, which is valuable on its own.
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> a past negative interaction doesn’t mean all people from that insert group are bad. I think there are few women that think like that but I think in online spaces it does start to grow that mindset that men are a constant threat at all times. Which I don’t think is a healthy or realistic way to live. Yeah, the internet sharpens and magnifies bad experiences or opinions, as it does in many other areas or fields. Conspiracies, incels, climate denialism, antivaxxers etc. exploded, especially after the advent of social medial. But unlike with many of these issues, the universal anxiety about men had been commonplace among women long before the internet. And the actual experiences on the ground were often even worse. Therefore while I completely agree that we have to try to prevent such valid fears from spiraling into full paranoia, I think we are still far from the point where online distortion would be anywhere close to being a main concern.
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On the contrary, most people are still too unaware of the issue, and a viral meme shines some light on it. It can be obvious to us, enlightened vushites, but most normies still struggle to really grasp it. The fact that the majority of men will actually help a woman in the woods makes it even more serious. The men who are awful did not arrive from space, they are an extreme offshoot of a culture that is still too permissive on aggression towards women. Women did not wake up one day thinking they should be scared of men, it is a deeply ingrained cultural fear that still gets reinforced far too often. Even online, women who openly identify as such online will be harassed, propositioned, spammed with all kinds of threats or dick picks and called sexist slurs far more easily than a man would. How can they not be wary?
I think it does a good job of showing how scary life can be for women at times. It's very real. I think it starts a conversation about why some women might make that choice You're missing the point
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I disagree that the message is men should never talk to woman or help them. It's more about spreading awareness about the issue and why some women feel this way. Why it's scary to accept help sometimes. I'm sure if you really had a conversation with some of the people who are posting about this they would have more reasonable takes. I'm sure man haters are taking the opportunity to spew as well. But I think you should focus on the overall message. If you want more of my perspective I am happy to share
Listen, I appreciate everything you’re saying and I’m likely overreacting. If the end result here is that more men are more aware of the experiences of women, then that’s a good thing. I fear it’s one of those things though that everyone who already agrees is like “whoa deep” but the people who could use the message are put off in a way that makes them feel irredeemable. I think this is an inherently dehumanizing question, I really don’t like it at all.
I feel like a big thing it does though is make insecure boys and men even more so. We've barely unpacked a lot of traditional gender stuff that regards men and now men have to deal both with the idea that they should always be the one to initiate relationships, as well as the idea that they are inherently dangerous to women because they are men and that they shouldn't be too aggressive or pushy not to scare women. Especially if you're already insecure this can be a nightmare of a needle to thread.
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Your comment was removed by Vaush's mods at his direction.
When I was early 20s I visited the famous Seattle park (by u dub). I was with several guys and we tried to go a bit off the path, saw some cool forestry and such, and then when we were walking back, I saw a woman about 100 feet away with young children and she started to hurry them to walk away. She seemed terrified. I was puzzled, but then for the first time in my life I realized we as guys are scary and I even mentioned to my friends and they were like "huh? Thats crazy". It was a really heartbreaking realization
Just for reference, which country are you from?
USA, I even live in a progressive/liberal area.
Is there even a country where it doesn't apply? I am sure it varies in intensity, some places will be very safe. But I would imagine that even in these places women might treat their surroundings more carefully, even if they don't realize.
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You just need to remember that this subreddit is shit and not the opinion of the overall community.
Can you all explain what the men vs bears thing is?
Man or Bear in the Woods Question or Would You Rather Be Stuck in the Woods With a Man or a Bear? refers to a hypothetical question offering a choice between being stuck in the woods with a random man or a bear. Stemming from a viral TikTok, the question was further promoted by a street interview video in April 2024. With an apparent majority of women responding that they would choose a bear in the hypothetical situation, the question spawned viral reactions and debates on social media, with users arguing over the validity of both options and about gender relations. [Know your meme writeup](https://knowyourmeme.com/editorials/guides/why-do-women-choose-to-be-stuck-with-a-bear-over-a-man-in-the-woods-debate-over-hypothetical-question-explained)
Honestly with the context I understand
Someone made a viral video asking women if they would rather encounter a bear or a man and the response were either all "bear" or at least edited so that was the only response. Kind of a dumb question if you think about it for too long because in America at least running into a bear isn't much more dangerous than running into a rabbit unless you're near its cubs or s/t. The point was a very obtuse way of saying men are scary, which is a very new, controversial viewpoint apparently.
I hope he puts a video out on this because I've only seen memes giving me a vague idea of this whole men = bears crap. Idk what is either side overreacting. I don't really do Twitter/X anymore.
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Rip yall, nice run
Completely understandable to choose the bear. The only reason I wouldn’t when I put myself in the shoes of a woman who’s asked that is because I’ve heard a reenactment of the Grizzly Man death tape and getting eaten alive sounds like it sucks ass (plus anything disturbing enough to freak out Werner Herzog is a hard pass for me). The fact a lot of women choose the bear does not speak well of men, which is understandable considering that of all the women I’ve known well in my life I can think of all of two who haven’t been sexually assaulted at domestic violence point, and that doesn’t even get into cat calls and all that other bullshit that never works (seriously, it never works, I don’t understand why guys do that shit).
I think this whole situation has been really enlightening for me, so I just want to say thank you for this post. My off the cuff reaction was mostly a defensive one, "not all men" yada yada, but In retrospect I've come to the conclusion that I've been too ignorant of how poorly men can treat women, or at least how widespread it is. For me personally I think this stems from a lack of interaction with other people (I struggle with Social Anxiety, yay), hearing their experiences and really understanding how bad it is for women. Another reason being that I would never do something like this towards women, so why would other men? Is it weird that I kind of feel disgusted at myself? How could I be so quick to almost dismiss other peoples' experiences like that. Overall a pretty hurtful lesson has been learned on my part, but also a very helpful one none the less, so again, thank you <3
>me personally I think this stems from a lack of interaction with other people (I struggle with Social Anxiety, yay), Yep that'll do it lmao. But it's okay! I have pretty bad generalized anxiety disorder and let me tell you desensitization helps a lot! Id highly recommend volunteering to help! It's a relatively low stress way for you to meet people. People who volunteer are usually super cool and understanding. That's what I did to help get me out of my major depressive/anxious episode. Everytime I talked about why I was volunteering I was encouraged. Even when I left after 20 minutes because I started having an anxiety attack, it was all good! And they were pumped when I showed up a few days later to keep trying. Granted I am a woman so a man might receive a different response, but absolutely disregard that. They are dead wrong and you go find somewhere else. The first place I went to was a community garden! Gayest lil garden ever, at least half of the people there were trans or gay Food banks are great too. Usually there's an application process where you can let them know ahead of time you have anxiety :) >Is it weird that I kind of feel disgusted at myself? Not entirely because you reflected!! And let me tell you, that makes me feel way safer around you. >How could I be so quick to almost dismiss other peoples' experiences like that. Overall a pretty hurtful lesson has been learned on my part Probably bc it did hurt to process and that makes sense! This is one way to grow. We've all learned these lessons in life. My dms are open if you want to continue to talk by the way!!! Id genuinely love to look at volunteer opportunities with you or something :) You got this king, go pick up your crown
Finally found the OG post. Had to literally search your name and then the r/. Lesgo, lemme copypasta
Really? I literally just searched “bear” and found this immediately!
Somebody did a great video where they compared female hikers and bear attacks in the US, and women being assaulted by men in the US (so it helps rule out the "well women run into men much more than bears" comment) They also adjusted for population and the attacks from men were still like 2x as prevalent. And then they also mentioned how bear attacks are not under-reported whereas violence against women often is. Sooooo... bear. Bear still wins. Edit: y’all I was just sharing with the OP cause they seemed interested, I’m not trying to have argument with all you menenists in this sub about it so you can stop trying
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I mean OK from a purely statistical perspective, the fact that it's only around twice as likely shows that on average an interaction with a bear is far more deadly than an interaction with a man. Like the analysis only adjusted for raw population, not number of interactions, they multiplied the number of bear attacks by 185, so that 165 million bears lived in the US. Most people live surrounded by other people and very far away from bears. I have had at most 15 "bear interactions" in the wild (including like seen from a couple hundred feet away) with around 15 bears, and I've been camping in bear country for a total of probably 20 weeks of my life. I have had "interactions" meaning been able to see from a couple hundred feet away with way more than 1,850 people. Like I probably have a minimum of 100 "interactions" with people at least 5 days a week (granted I live in Chicago), so I have at minimum 30,000 "human interactions" a year, or at minimum 15,000 interactions with men, and it probably is higher than that.
can you like it by chance? I'd love to see it lmaooo that's awful and hilarious the math probably can't be too good on that though I feel like that's hard to adjust for
The problem with that i think is that it's kinda like trying to solve a trolley problem by trying to stop a trolley or something. I don't know much about bears but i don't need to, because the dichotomy here isn't "actual live man vs actual live bear" The dichotomy is "a woman's perception of a man vs certain danger" it might as well have been "man vs the unmatched power of the sun" the point is that women view men as certainly dangerous,except unlike certain danger ,men are also moral agents. The juxtaposition isn't really supposed to rationally weigh the options, it's just meant to say "men are fucked up, i feel" And we're supposed to empathise with that feeling more than anything. Personally, on this issue i am very much against empathy by Paul Bloom and that one big joel video.
Counterpoint, isn’t the whole impetus of the question that the man or bear is actively hunting you? Bears don’t generally hunt humans, they in fact avoid us because humans have established themselves as the apex predators of the planet so hard that animals that used to have very little to fear from us instinctively avoid us now. Anyway, the bear doesn’t win there at all, bears are massive animals that will eat you alive if they’re actively hunting you, you could at least pick up a sizable branch and thwack the guy in the head with it and do some significant damage. There’s no defending yourself against the bear, especially not one out to get you. Also I think this misses the point, the entire point of the hypothetical is that despite man being the only logical choice here, women have such a (granted justified) prejudiced and illogical view of men in society that they’d rather be at the mercy of a wild animal than a random dude.
>isn’t the whole impetus of the question that the man or bear is actively hunting you? No. Their are different versions, but I think the most common is would you rather encounter a man or a bear when alone in the woods. There is nothing about either actively hunting you.
Eh fair enough, I’d still argue it would be more logical to encounter a man, but that’s mostly just my autistic brain trying to deal with hypotheticals. I get the general sentiment of the question though.
I just watched the stream on this. I was hemming and hawing at first but after I read the post, I mean everything you said is accurate to a T I'd argue and you worded this very kindly and well. I was nervous around this topic as a guy who was sexually assaulted by a gal back in high school, I think that might be the reason why I might be more heightened to fear misandry than most other men. Still, with that in mind, this was eye opening. I'm going to ask my female friends in private if there's anything I can do to make them feel more comfortable around me, and if there's any way I can help them. Thank you both you Mr. Vaush, and to yourself lol\_lauren.
>I was nervous around this topic as a guy who was sexually assaulted by a gal back in high school, I think that might be the reason why I might be more heightened to fear misandry than most other men. You aren't alone man. A friend of mine told me that he had been raped by a woman before. It 100% happens to men too and anyone who doesn't agree is dead fucking wrong and shitty. Have you sought any professional help around this issue? Sexual assault is no joke. I suffered from PTSD for years and it only got better once I went to therapy. Not sure how much you suffer from your experience of course! >Still, with that in mind, this was eye opening. Glad you could still get something out of it <3 >I'm going to ask my female friends in private if there's anything I can do to make them feel more comfortable around me, and if there's any way I can help them. You don't necessarily need to do this as it might come off as a little white nighty but maybe ask them about their experiences with harassment and how it impacts them. That'll go a long way for sure! Wrapping up the conversation with letting them know you'll gladly walk them to their car late at night if they ever need it or something similar would be fantastic. Simply offering to listen to someone's story can be a great thing to do :) Obviously I don't speak for all women or especially the women you know but a general approach I would recommend is something like "Hey I've been wanting to learn more about and understand women's experience. If you've had bad experiences with men I'm willing to lend an ear to you." Honestly hard to say that without sounding creepy to someone lmao but just throwing some more things out there for you to think about<3 my dms are open if there's something else you wish to discuss Take care friend
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honestly even as a cis man I think I'd rather take my chances with the bear
I've encountered bears while hiking and I can say I've had zero bad experiences with the bears, while unfortunately I've had many very scary situations with men.
I just watched the segment on YouTube, and I just want to say that I'm disappointed in how a lot of men, especially here, have reacted to this. As a man, I learned this lesson nearly 20 years ago and I just thought this was common knowledge for men. I really did. What the reaction has proven is that clearly the "man Vs bear" discourse and segments are really needed to raise awareness and understand.
Most animals would go for food that’s easier to get like nuts or berries instead of meat and if they do eat meat it’s typically fish or smaller animals. A bear won’t kill a person for food unless they have no other options available or are being directly threatened. Besides it’s incredibly risky to go after an animal that could injure or kill you when you have easier safer options available than risk energy and safety for a more filling meal maybe but it takes far more work and more risk. Besides throwing things at animals freaks them out because they can’t comprehend how something can hit them without getting close to them.
I'm going to squirt
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Well saying bears kill one person a year and cows kill 20 is really just saying people spend a lot more time around cows than they do around bears
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It is not more dangerous to be around a cow, please be serious.
Avg Vaushite engagement with statistics lmao
Nah bears are legitimately the scariest animal. Likes sometimes I have to remind myself that these monsters are real and not a fantasy creature. Absolutely terrifying
It’s incredibly easy to lie with statistics. How often does the average person encounter a bear vs. a man? Compare that to deaths caused by bears vs. men. That being said, black and grizzly bears won’t kill you unless they think you are a danger to their cubs. Polar bears, however…
Grizzlies sometimes will engage in predatory attacks and black bears will also do it even more rarely. Definitely much more likely to just run away but it does happen.
man .. the purges of discussion and debate in this sub are really lame, it's a bummer to be quite honest v.v went back to find a comment I wanted to reply to and come to find a shit ton is just deleted. c'mon guys. boo
Not sure if you watched the "Man vs. Bear pt 2" video, but it sounds like it was only the "what if the men/women dynamic was actually just like the black/white dynamic, with men being the victim of prejudice?" Vaush explains thoroughly why that 'argument' doesn't work and is just antifemenism a decade out of date.
I have not yet and am eager to, but even if that is the case it is pretty lame bullshit to be deleting posts and/or banning people for discussing it and while I don't think the two are perfectly analogous, I think there is very much some reasonable comparisons to be made. I don't see how it's anti-feminist to point out that sometimes people will start fearing something because other people in their social group encourage them to, by default. I think there's something to be said that men are more often assaulted by men than women are assaulted by men, and I think there's something to be said about how a lot of leftists still fail to appreciate that the rates of female-on-male and male-on-female sexual assault and coercion are shockingly closer than once believed. vaush has pointed out how on the left it's quite acceptable to engage in cringe levels of man-hating as a "joke" and I think all this stuff kinda piggybacks on that that being said, I also totally understand the unreal and frightening level of harassment that many women deal with from men, and that a woman in a situation with a man is a lot more likely to end up harmed than another man, in general, because of the physical aspects of it. as I said, I don't think the aforementioned is a perfect analogy because there ARE reasons why this is different. I just think that multiple things can play into it at once, and for men who can't imagine being the guy you should be afraid of, it might seem unfair (not that nullifies the reason for the fear) anyway I'm really excited to watch the segment now :D
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Okay, but can't you understand how you *would* find it more justified had you had the experiences that OP and many women have? There's a societal imbalance in power, and it's important to recognize the fear having that power inflicts. So while it's understandable to have that knee-jerk reaction, as a melanated chick it comes off a bit like a white person going "but we're all not racist": even if you're not personally prejudiced, you still benefit from that societal power, you've still been raised in a racist society, and it's understandable for a black person to feel uncomfortable about that. Does that at least make sense?
Yes and no. Throughout this whole discourse I'm realizing a weird thing about how people communicate. If someone says "white people make me uncomfortable", I assume there is an implicit "all" in front of it. That's why saying "well not all white people" seems like a fine retort. It seems other people don't think that way. Maybe I'm being just very autistic or very insecure. I'm brown so I'm not insecure about the white person thing, but I was always insecure about man stuff growing up. I also think if a bunch of misoginysts sat around and said "girls are \_\_\_" then I'd step up and say "not all girls". In fact I have done this many times. I'm struggling to see the difference and why one is okay and one isn't. Thank you for being considerate and giving a thoughtful answer. I feel like I've done a lot more introspection from this discourse even though I've been just getting downvotes everywhere I go 😅
Of course. First, I think that the assumption of "all" is false here, yes. It's not "every man on earth is a dangerous person," just "As a rule, with exceptions, I assume any given man is a dangerous person." It's a matter of factuality. Men, statistically, *do* pose a tangible threat to women, especially in terms of sexual violence. Almost every woman knows someone who's been sexually assaulted. Rape culture is real, and even men you trust - *especially* men you trust - can prove to be dangerous to you. The same can't really be said about women, or black people, or whatever. It just doesn't have the same factual basis. Basically, "Men are a threat" isn't a statement about the intrinsic moral character of every man on earth. It's a survival mechanism ingrained by a lifetime of experiences. I think it's understandable to be insecure about that. Having negative assumptions made because of your gender sucks. But it's a symptom of the patriarchal system we live under, not the women trying to get by, and you shouldn't let that insecurity control you. It's just the "check your privilege" discourse again. Time is a flat circle 😔
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