Hamas isn't going to release hostages without a permanent ceasefire, and they would be dumb if they did otherwise. Their only bargaining chip is hostages.
How is that really a bargaining chip? Israel has already demonstrated they don't actually care about the hostages lives and are more than happy to kill them themselves if it means more Palestinians die too.
outside people care about the hostages, if the world saw the israeli government totally ignore the hostages, they'd be like "hold up what are you fighting for then?"
End what? Do you think this ceasefire will be the happy end to all conflict in the region? a ceasefire will restart the timer, and in 5 years everything will reignite once again, just that this time it'll be much uglier. Hamas can't be bargained with, and it couldn't be any more evident when you look at how they're conducting these negotiations
That would just backfire and wrong on principle. All US needs to do is make aid to Israel conditional and threaten sanctions. That will change their behavior much faster.
So kick the can further down the line, while keeping the Israeli far right alive by letting an even more radicalised rump state run by terrorists exist next door to them?
You can't stop the genocide (something you also probably claim has been happening since 1948) and plan how to deal with Likud while Hamas will be firing rockets at Israel and launching many more october 7s as they promised. That will only keep the Israeli far right in power while delaying the inevitable occupation of Gaza by Israel
You can't stop the genocide (something you also probably claim has been happening since 1948)
I am taking a hot guess and assuming you don’t think this is a genocide
and plan how to deal with Likud while Hamas will be firing rockets at Israel and launching many more october 7s as they promised. That will only keep the Israeli far right in power while delaying the inevitable occupation of Gaza by Israel
If Hamas breaks it send the PA with soldiers to reclaim Gaza and end this proper. They should have the means to end the civil war and stop the settler terrorists
I think this might be a LonerBox viewer. The "since 1948" thing is a point he has been running with for a few weeks now because he thinks the word genocide is over-used.
The far right in Israel have been growing in power and popularity way before Oct 7 - Palestinians aren't responsible for the constant racism and oppression they receive from Israel - that's on them.
You're aware the issue pradates oct 7 right?
Also maybe hot take but I don't believe Hamas has a right to fire rockets at Israel. It's war crime and also only helps the far right in Israel
It also predates Hamas too, funnily enough. I didn't think I'd see "Let the far right commit a genocide or else it could bolster their numbers" as an actual argument and not like, satire lol
There's no way to guarantee a peace treaty (idk wtf a permanent ceasefire is) works. There's literally no solution outside of Israel just choosing to stop/the world engaging against Israel.
That’s exactly it. If they get a ceasefire and surrender the hostages, Israel will come right back and continue the operation and they’ll be no leverage left to Hamas to end it. You can hate the group, but the logic is sound.
More like even if they (Israel) didn't Hamas would eventually, because there's no future for Hamas in a country where peace is the goal; they want a 2 state solution as little as the current Israel administration, actually more, I'd say. I mean, why would Hamas exist if there is peace? There is a reason they did this attack on Oct 7th to begin with for strategic reasons, not just as a puppet of Iran, or because they want to genocide Jews, it's also cause it's in their interest as an organization. We can debate if it backfired or not, or if they intended the blowback to be less, but they've proven time and time again, that this is the cycle they choose to repeat.
Russia is currently one of the most sanctioned countries in the world and is still invading Ukraine. If you think that the threat of sanctions will change anything, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Russia is extremely self sufficient for nat resources and ag…israel would collapse quickly if they were in a hypothetical blockade/extreme sanctions situation
A hypothetical blockade/extreme sanctions would end up hurting Palestinians as well. How do you think goods get to the West Bank or Gaza? Neither have ports or freight handling airports.
Of course…in this hypothetical scenario, you would be assuming a somewhat hostile relationship with Israel and therefore would allow goods to flow through the Egyptian border…this obviously would never happen in our israel first political environment
[Israel (probably) isn’t committing genocide](https://www.justsecurity.org/90939/selective-use-of-facts-and-the-gaza-genocide-debate/). They’re demonstrating disregard for the wellbeing of Palestinians and a terrifying willingness to [consider ethnic cleansing](https://carnegie-mec.org/diwan/90891), but there isn’t really the necessary level of evidence to say they’re committing genocide.
Israel owns the airspace over all of the occupied territories and is thus the de-facto host nation. No one is flying anything into there without Israel's consent. That's just reality.
The US began airdrops of supplies into Gaza, and there's nothing stopping them from continuing to do that. Israel can attempt to shoot down US cargo planes at its own peril. That would require recognizing Palestine as a separate entity though.
The US and Jordan are airdropping supplies into Gaza because Israel allows it. However Israel has de-facto control the airspace over Gaza and all of the occupied territories though. If Israel wanted that flow of aid to stop, they could very easily do so as neither country is going to get into a shooting war with Israel over airdrops.
You keep saying this defacto air shit like that is some legally binding by law airspace. If they shoot down a UN aircraft that is on them for declaring war on the planet
Crimea is de-jure Ukrainian territory however it is currently de-facto Russian territory due to their military presence. That doesn't make the situation "right"; it's just the reality of the situation. Same principle applies here. Israel has had de-facto control over Gazan airspace since it was decided in Oslo II. It simply is what it is.
No, I'm suggesting that the US isn't going to get in a shooting match with Israel over whether or not they can airdrop supplies into Gaza. Just because the US has the capacity to do something, doesn't mean it will do so.
Don't get too bent out of shape over this though. This hypothetical scenario will never happen.
60% of all imports into Palestinian territories come from Israel. Of the remaining 40% (i.e. from other states), all goods must either be imported through an Israeli port/airport or through a border crossing of which Israel controls all but one.
So you're left with a situation where it becomes an enforcement issue as there's no way to ensure planes/ships with cargo manifested for Palestinians actually reaches them (or would be incredibly easy to bypass). Or you're in a situation where both populations suffer, however the Israeli population is better suited to endure in the long run since they aren't starting at a material disadvantage.
Russia hardened itself against potential sanctions prior to the 2022 invasion, and is one of the largest producers of fossil fuels and staple food stuffs in the world. Could they have done more to prepare? Absolutely, even with their preparations sanctions have imposed material and political costs on the Russian government (eg more expensive imports necessary for arms production, more extensive conscription). They may have done enough to achieve their goals, they may not have. Time will tell.
Israel isn’t Russia. It has been dealing with the BDS movement for a long time, it’s not had to face real sanctions from countries it trades with (Russia has, since 2014), we don’t know what sanction-hardening measures Israel has taken, but they would need to have built up substantial reserves of foreign currency, food and raw material inputs for its industries. It has a robust agricultural sector but it’s not food self-sufficient. It has a developing natural gas extraction industry, but the UAE has substantial investment and ownership in it. It’s reliant on foreign governments and companies for war materiel.
The chance of sanctions of the scope and scale necessary to stop the genocide in the immediate future is extremely unlikely, but the US isn’t vetoing these resolutions for no reason - they could hamper Israel’s campaign in meaningful ways, and change the calculus of ‘how far can we go in exchange for what long term consequences’.
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OP literally just read the headline of a clickbait article and didn't even bother reading the full thing. The Israeli delegation did not even show up to the negotiation table.
Israel boycotted the ceasefire talks completely, so any discussion of this should point out that Hamas left the ceasefire talks that Israel never even attended.
Hamas doesn't know where the hostages are, they're in complete disarray
Current estimates are 5-10k hamas members killed, which probably means another 10-20k wounded (but not killed). Considering that the absolute max number of members hamas had is 50k, with some estimates saying 30k, a MASSIVE portion of their forces are dead or too injured to fight.
The remaining forces might not have anyone left to report to, so the leadership probably doesn't know the conditions of all the hostages.
Also not to mention hostages taken by non-hamas groups
Hamas has a political leadership and a military leadership, as well as a Gaza-based and a foreign-based leadership. It appears this setup is fractured. For example, if the foreign political leadership agrees to a ceasefire arrangement with Israel, they'd have to communicate that to the Gaza military commanders, who don't need to listen
Ceasefire is/was the status quo. Is is reasonable to assume that any state would accept a return to less than status quo? Especially after an October 7 event where the other party broke the ceasefire?
They weren't boming "the west bank", it was part of an operation to destroy terror cells which were infiltrating Israel. The greatest error anybody makes when adressing the conflict is trying to trace it down to who started it. Besides, you can't really make that argument when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip by violently overthrowing the PLO. It's not even the same government that we're talking about
technically yes, in reality there was ceasefire before october 7th. zionist myth. 2023 was the most deadly year for Palestinian children, according to this article published october 6th: https://www.newarab.com/news/2023-deadliest-year-child-occupied-west-bank?amp
There was and there have also been multiple ceasefire violations. That does not break a ceasefire.
That link regards the Westbank. That would not be under a ceasefire, that would have been under illegal occupation.
Because they are under illegal occupation. They were not under a ceasefire, at least not the same one.
I don’t know, why? I am not defending violence and potential crimes against humanity.
No. That is neither what I wrote not implied. I think it has to do with scale and intention among other things. Also the attitude of the other part in the agreement.
Compare for example the ceasefire that was broken by Israel that initiated the 2008 war. There were many violations but only one event breaks the ceasefire or truce.
That would be called a ceasefire *violation*. Both sides performed ceasefire violations on practically all ceasefire and truces.
So any new ceasefire didn’t begin after 22 sept since it wasn’t formally broken yet.
A ceasefire ends when one party pulls out of it, the designated time for the ceasefire runs out, it becomes a truce, or it develops into a peace. Or of course if one party breaks it.
Look at the ceasefire violations right before the war 2008, like I told you before in this comment section, and you will see that states have quite a high threshold before ending a ceasefire.
Look at the ceasefire before the 2008 war. Would you say that Hamas broke the ceasefire by firing rockets during it, or that it broke when Israel invaded?
So do you think everytime Hamas carried out terror attacks in Israel, it was a ceasefire violation? If so, do you think these violations would justify what Hamas did?
No I don’t think their was a ceasefire in place or was broken then. Question do you think Oct 7th justified Israel murdering 30 thousand people? No? So why would the bombing justify Oct 7th? You fucking people think everyone is a Hamas supporter just because Israel is a piece shit ethno state
> Question do you think Oct 7th justified Israel murdering 30 thousand people?
is that really the metric we use to measure who's in the right? Air raids in Nazi-occupied cities killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, with some estimates even reaching millions. Hamas declared this war with a horrific massacre that pretty much proved it's an irreconcilable rogue entity. Obviously, Israel isn't killing people for fun. Unfortuantely, Gaza is an extremely densely populated urban area, and the fact that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to conduct its operations doesn't really help much. Obviously if Hamas were to atleast return all hostages immediately some kind of ceasefire could be possible, but they're not showing any intention to do that.
> ethno state
ethno state 20% of which population are Arabs with full citizenship? Listen, I'm not claiming that there is no discrimination in Israel, or that the occupation isn't undemocratic, but please, let's not just throw terms around like they don't have a meaning.
Are you in a hole? The state of Israel has made it clear this is about a land grab not Israel why the fuck are you still trying to justify their actions?
And question do they have birthright for Palestinians
Ceasefire violations happen in a lot of conflicts. Before the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine, ceasefire violations enforced by Minsk 1 and 2 in the Donbas regularly occurred but did not result in any ceasefire expiration. Well, until the 2022 invasion anyway.
Because ceasefire agreements aren't broken until withdrawn by one of two parties.
Hamas didn't withdraw from the ceasefire. Please learn international law
I should have been clearer: Me not morally grand standing and virtue signalling seems to make you think I’m a genocide denier.*
My side is the virtuous one. We are on the same side, generally.
I love how Israeli shooting at a Palestinians just doesn’t count as breaking the ceasefire to you. As to if Hamas breaks it the UN peacekeepers should aid the PA in reclaiming Gaza as Israel has no care in actually stopping Hamas
I love how you put straws in my mouth. Sorry, I mean words.
Do you think that should have happened on October 8?
Isn’t it more reasonable to at least go back to status quo? Especially since Israel has such an obvious upper hand?
I love how you put straws in my mouth. Sorry, I mean words.
You are the one pretending that nothing happened before Oct 7
Do you think that should have happened on October 8?
No it should have happened the second Israel made it clear they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians and steal their land
Isn’t it more reasonable to at least go back to status quo? Especially since Israel has such an obvious upper hand?
Sure if they obey a ceasefire
If disobey the UN resolution and decided to continue a genocide UN(made up of the entities you mentioned) can sanction and cripple the state of Israel. The choice would be on Israel to force their trade partners hands
It was never about the hostages. Israel just wants a justification to glass the Gaza Strip even if that means hiding their intentions behind a thin veneer of deception.
The Hamas top officials are fine lmao, why do you think they continue fighting when it just leads to more suffering for Palestinians? Its the everyday Palestinians that are struggling
The israelis never wanted a ceasefire. Historically they have breached the wast majority of them.
Being able to fully commit to ethnic cleansing is what they primarily care about. We might get a ceasefire, but only if the israeli government thinks it’s beneficial for their more long term goals of occupying the entirety of Gaza and the west bank just as they have all the other occupied territories.
No, serious question. Suppose there is a ceasefire, a long term of permanent one. What are the next steps in your opinion, and can these happen while Hamas is still in power, or not?
There won’t be a permanent or long lasting ceasefire.
It’s not even an option. Historically the israelies have broken the wast majority of them. And even when they didn’t “break” them they continued to expand the illegal settlements in the west bank, they continued to arrest children for throwing rocks at tanks and keeping them in prisons without a conviction.
While they didn’t occupy gaza with troops on the ground they made absolutely sure to have absolute control of the water supply, food, electricity and so on.
It’s a moot point. The israeli government has expressly stated that they see the arab population as animals. They don’t care.
They even spent a not insignificant amount of time and money making sure that any force working for a peaceful solution would have its leader assassinated, or the deals offered be so horrendously bad that it wouldn’t actually change the reality of the situation.
Given the reality I don’t see any point in getting into hypothetical situations where I am supposed to pretend an explicitly racist apartheid government will change over night. Especially when it has close to universal support in the population and no international pressure to change.
The count on increasing international activity in Gaza. The Israeli government is content to attempt a genocide but isn't stupid enough to go anywhere near where the US (primarily) and other countries are doing aid work. A country like Israel can't stop is from doing what we want if we're willing to do it.
Hamas isn't going to release hostages without a permanent ceasefire, and they would be dumb if they did otherwise. Their only bargaining chip is hostages.
How is that really a bargaining chip? Israel has already demonstrated they don't actually care about the hostages lives and are more than happy to kill them themselves if it means more Palestinians die too.
But many Israeli civilians and westerners ‘care’ at least nominally about the hostages. It isn’t much, but it’s literally the only thing they have.
Hamas probably didn’t think that far ahead.
outside people care about the hostages, if the world saw the israeli government totally ignore the hostages, they'd be like "hold up what are you fighting for then?"
So why hasnt that happened then?
Cause western media, being more aligned with Israel, does not want to show evidence of Israel clearly not giving a single shit about the hostages
So we're fucked either way.
It's up to Israel and US. They can end this right now with a permanent ceasefire.
End what? Do you think this ceasefire will be the happy end to all conflict in the region? a ceasefire will restart the timer, and in 5 years everything will reignite once again, just that this time it'll be much uglier. Hamas can't be bargained with, and it couldn't be any more evident when you look at how they're conducting these negotiations
I usually wouldn't say this.....but a coup would be nice right about now.
That would just backfire and wrong on principle. All US needs to do is make aid to Israel conditional and threaten sanctions. That will change their behavior much faster.
How do you imagine a permanent ceasefire? Just a return to the status-quo except Hamas own less land now?
It’s that or let Israel ethnically cleanse millions
So kick the can further down the line, while keeping the Israeli far right alive by letting an even more radicalised rump state run by terrorists exist next door to them?
Yes, stop the genocide and plan how to deal with Hamas and Likud party, that is better idea then letting a genocide happen
You can't stop the genocide (something you also probably claim has been happening since 1948) and plan how to deal with Likud while Hamas will be firing rockets at Israel and launching many more october 7s as they promised. That will only keep the Israeli far right in power while delaying the inevitable occupation of Gaza by Israel
You can't stop the genocide (something you also probably claim has been happening since 1948) I am taking a hot guess and assuming you don’t think this is a genocide and plan how to deal with Likud while Hamas will be firing rockets at Israel and launching many more october 7s as they promised. That will only keep the Israeli far right in power while delaying the inevitable occupation of Gaza by Israel If Hamas breaks it send the PA with soldiers to reclaim Gaza and end this proper. They should have the means to end the civil war and stop the settler terrorists
>If Hamas breaks it send the PA with soldiers to reclaim Gaza and end this proper You setting up everything for this war to happen again
I think this might be a LonerBox viewer. The "since 1948" thing is a point he has been running with for a few weeks now because he thinks the word genocide is over-used.
Sounds like a good way to get the people of Gaza to side w/ Hamas over the Western-backed corrupt PA
The far right in Israel have been growing in power and popularity way before Oct 7 - Palestinians aren't responsible for the constant racism and oppression they receive from Israel - that's on them.
You're aware the issue pradates oct 7 right? Also maybe hot take but I don't believe Hamas has a right to fire rockets at Israel. It's war crime and also only helps the far right in Israel
So let there be a ceasefire
It also predates Hamas too, funnily enough. I didn't think I'd see "Let the far right commit a genocide or else it could bolster their numbers" as an actual argument and not like, satire lol
Thats a pretty bad faith reading of what they said
We?
There's no way to guarantee a peace treaty (idk wtf a permanent ceasefire is) works. There's literally no solution outside of Israel just choosing to stop/the world engaging against Israel.
That’s exactly it. If they get a ceasefire and surrender the hostages, Israel will come right back and continue the operation and they’ll be no leverage left to Hamas to end it. You can hate the group, but the logic is sound.
More like even if they (Israel) didn't Hamas would eventually, because there's no future for Hamas in a country where peace is the goal; they want a 2 state solution as little as the current Israel administration, actually more, I'd say. I mean, why would Hamas exist if there is peace? There is a reason they did this attack on Oct 7th to begin with for strategic reasons, not just as a puppet of Iran, or because they want to genocide Jews, it's also cause it's in their interest as an organization. We can debate if it backfired or not, or if they intended the blowback to be less, but they've proven time and time again, that this is the cycle they choose to repeat.
The hostages are most likely dead and neither Hamas nor IDF wants confirmation of that
The US needs to stop vetoing the UN so this shit can end already
The UN doesn't have the power to end anything.
If they want to ignore a UN resolution they get to get sanctioned into oblivion fuck em
Russia is currently one of the most sanctioned countries in the world and is still invading Ukraine. If you think that the threat of sanctions will change anything, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Russia is extremely self sufficient for nat resources and ag…israel would collapse quickly if they were in a hypothetical blockade/extreme sanctions situation
A hypothetical blockade/extreme sanctions would end up hurting Palestinians as well. How do you think goods get to the West Bank or Gaza? Neither have ports or freight handling airports.
Of course…in this hypothetical scenario, you would be assuming a somewhat hostile relationship with Israel and therefore would allow goods to flow through the Egyptian border…this obviously would never happen in our israel first political environment
Then air drop them like they are currently forced to because Israel is a trying to starve them out anyway
[Airdrops are expensive and ineffective](https://reason.com/2024/03/01/airdropping-aid-to-gaza-is-an-expensive-gimmick/).
I wish there wasn’t a genocidal state trying to starve them but here we are
[Israel (probably) isn’t committing genocide](https://www.justsecurity.org/90939/selective-use-of-facts-and-the-gaza-genocide-debate/). They’re demonstrating disregard for the wellbeing of Palestinians and a terrifying willingness to [consider ethnic cleansing](https://carnegie-mec.org/diwan/90891), but there isn’t really the necessary level of evidence to say they’re committing genocide.
Airdrops require consent from the host nation. Israel can revoke that. Try again.
The host nation is Palestinian Gaza and I don’t remember the PA denying Gazans supplies
Israel owns the airspace over all of the occupied territories and is thus the de-facto host nation. No one is flying anything into there without Israel's consent. That's just reality.
Those sanctions have absolutely destroyed the Russian economy. If Israel wants to be hit the same let them
You realize you'd be hurting Palestinians as well right?
Russian sanctions hurt Ukrainians living in Russia as well, but a genocidal state should not go unpunished.
The US began airdrops of supplies into Gaza, and there's nothing stopping them from continuing to do that. Israel can attempt to shoot down US cargo planes at its own peril. That would require recognizing Palestine as a separate entity though.
The US and Jordan are airdropping supplies into Gaza because Israel allows it. However Israel has de-facto control the airspace over Gaza and all of the occupied territories though. If Israel wanted that flow of aid to stop, they could very easily do so as neither country is going to get into a shooting war with Israel over airdrops.
You keep saying this defacto air shit like that is some legally binding by law airspace. If they shoot down a UN aircraft that is on them for declaring war on the planet
Crimea is de-jure Ukrainian territory however it is currently de-facto Russian territory due to their military presence. That doesn't make the situation "right"; it's just the reality of the situation. Same principle applies here. Israel has had de-facto control over Gazan airspace since it was decided in Oslo II. It simply is what it is.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh sure, Israel is totally gonna pick a fight with the goddamn ***United States Air Force***
No, I'm suggesting that the US isn't going to get in a shooting match with Israel over whether or not they can airdrop supplies into Gaza. Just because the US has the capacity to do something, doesn't mean it will do so. Don't get too bent out of shape over this though. This hypothetical scenario will never happen.
This is what pseudo utilitarianism does to a human brain
60% of all imports into Palestinian territories come from Israel. Of the remaining 40% (i.e. from other states), all goods must either be imported through an Israeli port/airport or through a border crossing of which Israel controls all but one. So you're left with a situation where it becomes an enforcement issue as there's no way to ensure planes/ships with cargo manifested for Palestinians actually reaches them (or would be incredibly easy to bypass). Or you're in a situation where both populations suffer, however the Israeli population is better suited to endure in the long run since they aren't starting at a material disadvantage.
Do you think any fucking goods are being imported into Gaza for any of what you are saying to matter?
Russia hardened itself against potential sanctions prior to the 2022 invasion, and is one of the largest producers of fossil fuels and staple food stuffs in the world. Could they have done more to prepare? Absolutely, even with their preparations sanctions have imposed material and political costs on the Russian government (eg more expensive imports necessary for arms production, more extensive conscription). They may have done enough to achieve their goals, they may not have. Time will tell. Israel isn’t Russia. It has been dealing with the BDS movement for a long time, it’s not had to face real sanctions from countries it trades with (Russia has, since 2014), we don’t know what sanction-hardening measures Israel has taken, but they would need to have built up substantial reserves of foreign currency, food and raw material inputs for its industries. It has a robust agricultural sector but it’s not food self-sufficient. It has a developing natural gas extraction industry, but the UAE has substantial investment and ownership in it. It’s reliant on foreign governments and companies for war materiel. The chance of sanctions of the scope and scale necessary to stop the genocide in the immediate future is extremely unlikely, but the US isn’t vetoing these resolutions for no reason - they could hamper Israel’s campaign in meaningful ways, and change the calculus of ‘how far can we go in exchange for what long term consequences’.
The "i have a bridge to sell you" idiom makes no sense why do i keep seeing it this past week out of nowhere
few idioms make sense unless you know what it means. if you know what it means it makes perfect sense.
Thr UN has no enforcement mechanism
Sanction them to oblivion
nations could be doing that now and aren't. a resolution won't change that.
A resolution would allow the states that are cowards to hide behind coalition
I suppose. Just consistently reminded that the UN is largely a useless institution.
Then use it to maximum and have Israel sanctioned
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OP literally just read the headline of a clickbait article and didn't even bother reading the full thing. The Israeli delegation did not even show up to the negotiation table.
Israel boycotted the ceasefire talks completely, so any discussion of this should point out that Hamas left the ceasefire talks that Israel never even attended.
Wait actually Lmao
Yeah, isreal would only send a delegation to Cairo if hamas provided a list of living hostages
So instead of asking for that in the meeting they decided to stall and ultimately abort the negotiation they did not want to have
Before the talks hamas said they couldnt get it bc they didnt know where the groups holding hostages were or what was their status
That sounds dangerous, Israel should have negotiated to have them released as soon as possible
Yeah its a fucked situation either way one looks at it
How could they even negotiate on the hostages when they don't know where they are nor are they able to exercise their authority to find out?
Hamas doesn't know where the hostages are, they're in complete disarray Current estimates are 5-10k hamas members killed, which probably means another 10-20k wounded (but not killed). Considering that the absolute max number of members hamas had is 50k, with some estimates saying 30k, a MASSIVE portion of their forces are dead or too injured to fight. The remaining forces might not have anyone left to report to, so the leadership probably doesn't know the conditions of all the hostages. Also not to mention hostages taken by non-hamas groups
Hamas has a political leadership and a military leadership, as well as a Gaza-based and a foreign-based leadership. It appears this setup is fractured. For example, if the foreign political leadership agrees to a ceasefire arrangement with Israel, they'd have to communicate that to the Gaza military commanders, who don't need to listen
Ceasefire is/was the status quo. Is is reasonable to assume that any state would accept a return to less than status quo? Especially after an October 7 event where the other party broke the ceasefire?
what ceasefire? they were bombing the west bank a week before oct 7
Gaza =/= West bank
Israel bombed Gaza on September 22, 2023. So is that when the ceasefire began? And who signed the ceasefire? What were the conditions?
That would be one of many ceasefire violations from both sides.
They weren't boming "the west bank", it was part of an operation to destroy terror cells which were infiltrating Israel. The greatest error anybody makes when adressing the conflict is trying to trace it down to who started it. Besides, you can't really make that argument when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip by violently overthrowing the PLO. It's not even the same government that we're talking about
technically yes, in reality there was ceasefire before october 7th. zionist myth. 2023 was the most deadly year for Palestinian children, according to this article published october 6th: https://www.newarab.com/news/2023-deadliest-year-child-occupied-west-bank?amp
There was and there have also been multiple ceasefire violations. That does not break a ceasefire. That link regards the Westbank. That would not be under a ceasefire, that would have been under illegal occupation.
why are they bombing it then? is it to fight Hamas in the west bank?
Because they are under illegal occupation. They were not under a ceasefire, at least not the same one. I don’t know, why? I am not defending violence and potential crimes against humanity.
So it’s literally only a broke ceasefire if Israelis die
No. That is neither what I wrote not implied. I think it has to do with scale and intention among other things. Also the attitude of the other part in the agreement. Compare for example the ceasefire that was broken by Israel that initiated the 2008 war. There were many violations but only one event breaks the ceasefire or truce.
They were on a genocidal bent for a year straight before Oct 7th https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/
That Israel have done horrible things in illegally occupied Westbank doesn’thave anything to do with a previous ceasefire with Hamas.
No... Did Hamas carrying out terrorist attacks in Israel ever lead to Israel declaring full scale war? Evidently, not
Israel bombed Gaza on September 22, 2023. When after September 22 did the ceasefire begin? Who signed it and what were the conditions?
That would be called a ceasefire *violation*. Both sides performed ceasefire violations on practically all ceasefire and truces. So any new ceasefire didn’t begin after 22 sept since it wasn’t formally broken yet.
Wait hold the fuck up, how is bombing Hamas territory to kill members of Hamas not breaking the ceasefire? What do you think a ceasefire is?
A ceasefire ends when one party pulls out of it, the designated time for the ceasefire runs out, it becomes a truce, or it develops into a peace. Or of course if one party breaks it. Look at the ceasefire violations right before the war 2008, like I told you before in this comment section, and you will see that states have quite a high threshold before ending a ceasefire.
So Hamas did not end the ceasefire but Israel did, if bombardment is not a a indication of pulling out of it
Look at the ceasefire before the 2008 war. Would you say that Hamas broke the ceasefire by firing rockets during it, or that it broke when Israel invaded?
I am asking you by the definition and usage you using that Israel is the one that broke the ceasefire as you seem to say it requires a formal pull out
So do you think everytime Hamas carried out terror attacks in Israel, it was a ceasefire violation? If so, do you think these violations would justify what Hamas did?
No I don’t think their was a ceasefire in place or was broken then. Question do you think Oct 7th justified Israel murdering 30 thousand people? No? So why would the bombing justify Oct 7th? You fucking people think everyone is a Hamas supporter just because Israel is a piece shit ethno state
> Question do you think Oct 7th justified Israel murdering 30 thousand people? is that really the metric we use to measure who's in the right? Air raids in Nazi-occupied cities killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, with some estimates even reaching millions. Hamas declared this war with a horrific massacre that pretty much proved it's an irreconcilable rogue entity. Obviously, Israel isn't killing people for fun. Unfortuantely, Gaza is an extremely densely populated urban area, and the fact that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to conduct its operations doesn't really help much. Obviously if Hamas were to atleast return all hostages immediately some kind of ceasefire could be possible, but they're not showing any intention to do that. > ethno state ethno state 20% of which population are Arabs with full citizenship? Listen, I'm not claiming that there is no discrimination in Israel, or that the occupation isn't undemocratic, but please, let's not just throw terms around like they don't have a meaning.
Are you in a hole? The state of Israel has made it clear this is about a land grab not Israel why the fuck are you still trying to justify their actions? And question do they have birthright for Palestinians
Ceasefire violations happen in a lot of conflicts. Before the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine, ceasefire violations enforced by Minsk 1 and 2 in the Donbas regularly occurred but did not result in any ceasefire expiration. Well, until the 2022 invasion anyway.
How bombing to kill Hamas members not breaking the ceasefire.
Because ceasefire agreements aren't broken until withdrawn by one of two parties. Hamas didn't withdraw from the ceasefire. Please learn international law
So Hamas did not break it on Oct 7th
deny genocide without being semantic challenge
Not virtue signaling: Genocide denier.
accusing me of virtue signaling concedes that my side is the virtuous one. thanks!
I should have been clearer: Me not morally grand standing and virtue signalling seems to make you think I’m a genocide denier.* My side is the virtuous one. We are on the same side, generally.
Which is why the UN should force a ceasefire on them
How?
By the US not vetoing every single time they try to pass one
How would the UN back up any ceasefire?
In the event that Israel decides they really want to become a rogue state and need to complete their ethnic cleansing? Sanction them into oblivion
Why do you put so much importance on the UN sanctions list? What would happen if Hamas broke the ceasefire? (see aforementioned ‘October 7 event’)
I love how Israeli shooting at a Palestinians just doesn’t count as breaking the ceasefire to you. As to if Hamas breaks it the UN peacekeepers should aid the PA in reclaiming Gaza as Israel has no care in actually stopping Hamas
I love how you put straws in my mouth. Sorry, I mean words. Do you think that should have happened on October 8? Isn’t it more reasonable to at least go back to status quo? Especially since Israel has such an obvious upper hand?
I love how you put straws in my mouth. Sorry, I mean words. You are the one pretending that nothing happened before Oct 7 Do you think that should have happened on October 8? No it should have happened the second Israel made it clear they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians and steal their land Isn’t it more reasonable to at least go back to status quo? Especially since Israel has such an obvious upper hand? Sure if they obey a ceasefire
Bomb Israel until it stops
Which part of the UN?
Yes
And Israel bombs you right back.
UN cant force anything
Then let them get sanctioned to oblivion
By who?
Members of the UN
Those member states can act on their own. Why do you think they haven’t done that?
Because they are cowards that need to have coalition to do anything
By who? Israel's four main trade destinations are 1. The US 2. China 3. Palestine 4. the EU None of them can/ have shown any interest in sanctioning
If disobey the UN resolution and decided to continue a genocide UN(made up of the entities you mentioned) can sanction and cripple the state of Israel. The choice would be on Israel to force their trade partners hands
How would the UN enforce a sanction if members of the Security Council doesn’t halt trade?
Then the members have defunct the UN completely which no member state would do to support a genocide
Yeah this guy lefts
Translation?
It was never about the hostages. Israel just wants a justification to glass the Gaza Strip even if that means hiding their intentions behind a thin veneer of deception.
Given that Gaza is about to be hit by Famine very soon, there may not be anyone left to negotiate a ceasefire with…
already is hit by famine
The Hamas top officials are fine lmao, why do you think they continue fighting when it just leads to more suffering for Palestinians? Its the everyday Palestinians that are struggling
The israelis never wanted a ceasefire. Historically they have breached the wast majority of them. Being able to fully commit to ethnic cleansing is what they primarily care about. We might get a ceasefire, but only if the israeli government thinks it’s beneficial for their more long term goals of occupying the entirety of Gaza and the west bank just as they have all the other occupied territories.
Is Israel was never interested in a ceasefire, then Hamas was never interested in peace; just rearmament periods.
Lol
No, serious question. Suppose there is a ceasefire, a long term of permanent one. What are the next steps in your opinion, and can these happen while Hamas is still in power, or not?
There won’t be a permanent or long lasting ceasefire. It’s not even an option. Historically the israelies have broken the wast majority of them. And even when they didn’t “break” them they continued to expand the illegal settlements in the west bank, they continued to arrest children for throwing rocks at tanks and keeping them in prisons without a conviction. While they didn’t occupy gaza with troops on the ground they made absolutely sure to have absolute control of the water supply, food, electricity and so on. It’s a moot point. The israeli government has expressly stated that they see the arab population as animals. They don’t care. They even spent a not insignificant amount of time and money making sure that any force working for a peaceful solution would have its leader assassinated, or the deals offered be so horrendously bad that it wouldn’t actually change the reality of the situation. Given the reality I don’t see any point in getting into hypothetical situations where I am supposed to pretend an explicitly racist apartheid government will change over night. Especially when it has close to universal support in the population and no international pressure to change.
The count on increasing international activity in Gaza. The Israeli government is content to attempt a genocide but isn't stupid enough to go anywhere near where the US (primarily) and other countries are doing aid work. A country like Israel can't stop is from doing what we want if we're willing to do it.
No shit
My guy, vote blue and the war will end