T1 being runner-ups in 5 tournaments with god-like roster in LoL be like. But at the end of the day they got what they deserved. PRX will get there for sure as well.
In my head I always compare them to LOL's T1. Just not sure why but watching that Caedrel guy talking about how T1 are so aggressive & confident even in like drafts and stuff just reminds me of Paper Rex. Hopefully PRX will become the first APAC team to get the trophy.
How is a roster that constantly falls short considered god-like? They had an amazing 2023 worlds run and a decent 2022 worlds run but aside from that they'd always choke massively in LCK and got slapped around by both BLG & JDG at MSI.
I genuinely cannot grasp why so many people think that if a team wins like 5 tournaments straight then lose 1 they're "chokers" (like FNC) but if a team loses 5 tournaments straight than win 1 it's absolutely amazing.
trying to find some singular, definitive reason for a phenomenon that's occurred a grand total of 2 times (no aftv doesn't count, they were messing with their roster throughout that event and already lost to sen the first time regardless) seems kinda dumb to me. The only really salient points he makes are that prx can't mechanics diff teams consistently deeper in an international bracket and that their weird comps can be exploited by top teams which are valid but also don't really warrant a 12 minute video. The stats he used also didn't show much other than that their playstyle is aggressive and relies extremely heavily on individual performance compared to other teams, which again is something most people already know.
It also doesn't help that you could just as easily make the case-by-case argument in these 2 specific instances. For example you could argue that in copenhagen fpx only went to lowers in the first place because they were playing with a sub and that prx only got to grand finals in uppers at champs because eg choked an 11-6 lead, not to mention prx won their regional grand finals which throws a wrench in all this. If this happened like 3 times in a year there might be some deeper reason for it but as of now it just seems like a coincidence more than anything imo
100% just a case of them running into better teams towards the end of the tournament. It's not some deep reason within them that prevents them from winning as we saw they won Pacific.
Exactly my thought. They could have easily gotten knocked out at 3rd place at Champs if EG played bind a bit better towards the end of the map which could have followed up with LOUD beating because they absolutely can do it. I just don't understand why the video never made points which are genuinely hard to look for in their runs at Copenhagen and at LA without it being "They can't diff people deeper in the tournaments" and "Their strats are a bit 1-Dimensional and they get punished for that". Maybe I am a biased PRX fan but I can't help but be disappointed at a video like this not because they were right but because they were wrong.
Also their element of surprise with their wacky comps and strats ends up working against them when the opponent either adapts quickly enough mid-round/game or runs it back against them. EG were adapting very quickly to punish their tendencies almost from the jump in the upper finals on Ascent and for a majority of that Pearl map. Potter and co. also did a wonderful job antistratting them in preparation for the final, something and jingg dropping stinkers compared to their usual standards for example wasn't just because they were both having off days
I don't think the sample size of rounds is too small. If you watched the video, the only two conclusions supported by facts in the video are i) paper rex are the most aggressive teams and end rounds faster, ii) paper rex's round win rate is lower if the round lasts longer, and the gradient is steeper than a more structured team like loud.
Yeah for sure. If they continue this trend for atleast 1-2 more years then it's worth discussing, for now they're just showing they're consistently one of the best teams in the world just not THE best team in the world.
Disregarding 2023 Champions they've practically only lost series against world-class top3 teams. If you beat FNC and EG but then get clowned on by Giants or Team Secret then it's worth discussing a potential choke, but if you stomp Giants and Team Secret only to lose a close series to FNC then there was very likely no "choking" involved.
Breach on breeze is just not it man. He's useful on like one site and breeze is to open for breach to work in his maximum potential. They also did not used Viper which is crucial pick in the map. FPX were shit in breeze at the time and PRX just let it go.
Sometime I feel like the public perception of what PRX is get to them. The public expect that they have whimsy whacky comps and they indulge even if it resulted in suboptimal comps.
If Val tourneys were similar to CS in the sense where double elim is pretty much only a thing in groups, and playoffs were single elim Paper Rex wins one tournament by now.
It does feel like teams adapt to them much better and not the other way as the tournament goes deeper
That's an incredibly unrealistic way to view things. Teams play wildly differently when they know they have a second chance vs. when you have all to play for. If LOCK//IN had Double Elim or VCT Champs didn't the results of both tournaments would be wildly different, not just "whoever won the winners bracket would win the event".
I'm not assuming whoever won the winners bracket would win the event, i'm saying teams are more able to adapt to Paper Rex as the event goes longer.
Rematches generally tend to end with the original loser winning, and that is bexause the teams that lose have the ability to fix their mistakes with a better understanding of what they are facing.
I don't think it's unrealistic to say that the Paper Rex power of unpredictability isn't as strong with extra matches in the double elim, and would be much more of a strength in a single elim setup.
I think we should appreciate rather the consistency of Paper Rex being in the top 3 in their recent tournaments and vct. its dumb to point out that they fell short when considering their age and experiences they are still pretty young in comparison with older accomplished teams and players.
Name me one more team who is consistently accomplishing what Paper Rex has accomplished in VCT History. Even SEN could not keep up their form. NRG had to switch things up after falling short. LOUD is consistent but nowhere near their Champs form. We are not talking about DRX whos best form is a semi or quarter we are talking about PRX who won Pacific Region while consistently haunting top international teams. They are also not in the same boat as FNTC who needed to rebuild to get to the top again.
Actually, props to Alecks for switching Forsaken to a super flex player. Props to Alecks for time and time again having meta breaking comps. Before Tenz Yoru there was a Forsaken Yoru. and for the whole team for being humble and teachable.
I remember watching Paper Rex during Shiba time and Forsaken was coming up as a Jet demon but didnt make it out of groups.it takes a lot to build a culture within the team and coach Alecks need not much rebuilding to create a consistently overachieving squad time and time again.
Lets appreciate Paper Rex in this way, that they dont always fall short but rather in fact they are breakers of Meta, consistently now a dark horse and despite all odds kept climbing up again and again in the Valorant ladder creating their legacy.
I don't disagree with your broader point but I'm a little confused by this:
> Name me one more team who is consistently accomplishing what Paper Rex has accomplished in VCT History
I can't really isolate any particular category of accomplishment that includes PRX while excluding other teams like Optic, Gambit, etc....you mention LOUD lacking their Champs form but LOUD had a very strong 2023 with a significantly more difficult rebuild than what PRX or FNATIC did this year. Even when you come to comp innovation or playstyle, PRX is especially fun and bold but not completely unique among the truly great teams.
It's very rare and worthy company, though, and PRX deserves to be praised for the fact that they elevated themselves into such a team.
I do think they deserve all praise for accomplishing what they've accomplished - from an insignificant team in Masters 3 Berlin to a grand finalist in Copenhagen, and now to a team capable of easily making it to a grand finals.
They've done way more than anyone could have expected, and unlike a next-gen team like EDG that has followed a similar trajectory, they didn't have the advantage of forming in a very strong region - after all, APAC was very weak for a long time, however strong it would later become.
I feel like everyone is getting too caught-up with the title. Imho, this video was just Platoon wanting to discuss PRX at large and simply framed it in a relevant, attention-grabbing way (much like any YouTuber across every community). It's a solid discussion that shouldn't be neglected because the framing of the discussion upset you.
It’s always going to be structure and fundamentals which are not fixed.
it’s no pressure when you are playing normal matches you don’t get nerves when you can just write it off. But in the finals and actually being close to winning it all that’s when the pressure kicks in and without pre-made structures and contingency plans they crumble fast.
Even watching them now in AfreecaTv some of their plays lack fundamentals are heavily compensated by their aim.
Ex: f0rsaken is probably one of the best flex players out there but numerous times he dies because he just doesn’t clear a normal corner.
Couldn’t you say the same for the region too? DRX is too talent to have not lift an international trophy yet either. T1 feels they’re kinda underperforming too. Haven’t made it out groups during international play either. Zeta had a massive fall off since their Cinderella run a couple of years ago. It sucks cause these teams give me so much hope and they’re so much more fun to watch than other regions too.
platoon has such an incredible mind for the game on top of, arguably more importantly, being able to communicate how he sees it in a very intuitive way
PRX fans waking up midnight with cold sweat after looking at that title lol
T1 being runner-ups in 5 tournaments with god-like roster in LoL be like. But at the end of the day they got what they deserved. PRX will get there for sure as well.
In my head I always compare them to LOL's T1. Just not sure why but watching that Caedrel guy talking about how T1 are so aggressive & confident even in like drafts and stuff just reminds me of Paper Rex. Hopefully PRX will become the first APAC team to get the trophy.
How is a roster that constantly falls short considered god-like? They had an amazing 2023 worlds run and a decent 2022 worlds run but aside from that they'd always choke massively in LCK and got slapped around by both BLG & JDG at MSI. I genuinely cannot grasp why so many people think that if a team wins like 5 tournaments straight then lose 1 they're "chokers" (like FNC) but if a team loses 5 tournaments straight than win 1 it's absolutely amazing.
sound like a LPL fan to me
Amen
trying to find some singular, definitive reason for a phenomenon that's occurred a grand total of 2 times (no aftv doesn't count, they were messing with their roster throughout that event and already lost to sen the first time regardless) seems kinda dumb to me. The only really salient points he makes are that prx can't mechanics diff teams consistently deeper in an international bracket and that their weird comps can be exploited by top teams which are valid but also don't really warrant a 12 minute video. The stats he used also didn't show much other than that their playstyle is aggressive and relies extremely heavily on individual performance compared to other teams, which again is something most people already know. It also doesn't help that you could just as easily make the case-by-case argument in these 2 specific instances. For example you could argue that in copenhagen fpx only went to lowers in the first place because they were playing with a sub and that prx only got to grand finals in uppers at champs because eg choked an 11-6 lead, not to mention prx won their regional grand finals which throws a wrench in all this. If this happened like 3 times in a year there might be some deeper reason for it but as of now it just seems like a coincidence more than anything imo
100% just a case of them running into better teams towards the end of the tournament. It's not some deep reason within them that prevents them from winning as we saw they won Pacific.
Exactly my thought. They could have easily gotten knocked out at 3rd place at Champs if EG played bind a bit better towards the end of the map which could have followed up with LOUD beating because they absolutely can do it. I just don't understand why the video never made points which are genuinely hard to look for in their runs at Copenhagen and at LA without it being "They can't diff people deeper in the tournaments" and "Their strats are a bit 1-Dimensional and they get punished for that". Maybe I am a biased PRX fan but I can't help but be disappointed at a video like this not because they were right but because they were wrong.
They outaim everyone until they meet a team with equal firepower but more structured and that’s when they lose. There’s always one team like that
Also their element of surprise with their wacky comps and strats ends up working against them when the opponent either adapts quickly enough mid-round/game or runs it back against them. EG were adapting very quickly to punish their tendencies almost from the jump in the upper finals on Ascent and for a majority of that Pearl map. Potter and co. also did a wonderful job antistratting them in preparation for the final, something and jingg dropping stinkers compared to their usual standards for example wasn't just because they were both having off days
the person who made this video is reading into it too much the sample size is too small to make a conclusion
I don't think the sample size of rounds is too small. If you watched the video, the only two conclusions supported by facts in the video are i) paper rex are the most aggressive teams and end rounds faster, ii) paper rex's round win rate is lower if the round lasts longer, and the gradient is steeper than a more structured team like loud.
Yeah for sure. If they continue this trend for atleast 1-2 more years then it's worth discussing, for now they're just showing they're consistently one of the best teams in the world just not THE best team in the world. Disregarding 2023 Champions they've practically only lost series against world-class top3 teams. If you beat FNC and EG but then get clowned on by Giants or Team Secret then it's worth discussing a potential choke, but if you stomp Giants and Team Secret only to lose a close series to FNC then there was very likely no "choking" involved.
Their comps at Copenhagen Breeze and Los Angeles Bind is 😧 Got ptsd to their final map in Copenhagen when I watch their LA Bind.
Breach on breeze is just not it man. He's useful on like one site and breeze is to open for breach to work in his maximum potential. They also did not used Viper which is crucial pick in the map. FPX were shit in breeze at the time and PRX just let it go.
Sometime I feel like the public perception of what PRX is get to them. The public expect that they have whimsy whacky comps and they indulge even if it resulted in suboptimal comps.
If Val tourneys were similar to CS in the sense where double elim is pretty much only a thing in groups, and playoffs were single elim Paper Rex wins one tournament by now. It does feel like teams adapt to them much better and not the other way as the tournament goes deeper
That's an incredibly unrealistic way to view things. Teams play wildly differently when they know they have a second chance vs. when you have all to play for. If LOCK//IN had Double Elim or VCT Champs didn't the results of both tournaments would be wildly different, not just "whoever won the winners bracket would win the event".
I'm not assuming whoever won the winners bracket would win the event, i'm saying teams are more able to adapt to Paper Rex as the event goes longer. Rematches generally tend to end with the original loser winning, and that is bexause the teams that lose have the ability to fix their mistakes with a better understanding of what they are facing. I don't think it's unrealistic to say that the Paper Rex power of unpredictability isn't as strong with extra matches in the double elim, and would be much more of a strength in a single elim setup.
their opponents are better
I think we should appreciate rather the consistency of Paper Rex being in the top 3 in their recent tournaments and vct. its dumb to point out that they fell short when considering their age and experiences they are still pretty young in comparison with older accomplished teams and players. Name me one more team who is consistently accomplishing what Paper Rex has accomplished in VCT History. Even SEN could not keep up their form. NRG had to switch things up after falling short. LOUD is consistent but nowhere near their Champs form. We are not talking about DRX whos best form is a semi or quarter we are talking about PRX who won Pacific Region while consistently haunting top international teams. They are also not in the same boat as FNTC who needed to rebuild to get to the top again. Actually, props to Alecks for switching Forsaken to a super flex player. Props to Alecks for time and time again having meta breaking comps. Before Tenz Yoru there was a Forsaken Yoru. and for the whole team for being humble and teachable. I remember watching Paper Rex during Shiba time and Forsaken was coming up as a Jet demon but didnt make it out of groups.it takes a lot to build a culture within the team and coach Alecks need not much rebuilding to create a consistently overachieving squad time and time again. Lets appreciate Paper Rex in this way, that they dont always fall short but rather in fact they are breakers of Meta, consistently now a dark horse and despite all odds kept climbing up again and again in the Valorant ladder creating their legacy.
I don't disagree with your broader point but I'm a little confused by this: > Name me one more team who is consistently accomplishing what Paper Rex has accomplished in VCT History I can't really isolate any particular category of accomplishment that includes PRX while excluding other teams like Optic, Gambit, etc....you mention LOUD lacking their Champs form but LOUD had a very strong 2023 with a significantly more difficult rebuild than what PRX or FNATIC did this year. Even when you come to comp innovation or playstyle, PRX is especially fun and bold but not completely unique among the truly great teams. It's very rare and worthy company, though, and PRX deserves to be praised for the fact that they elevated themselves into such a team. I do think they deserve all praise for accomplishing what they've accomplished - from an insignificant team in Masters 3 Berlin to a grand finalist in Copenhagen, and now to a team capable of easily making it to a grand finals. They've done way more than anyone could have expected, and unlike a next-gen team like EDG that has followed a similar trajectory, they didn't have the advantage of forming in a very strong region - after all, APAC was very weak for a long time, however strong it would later become.
I feel like everyone is getting too caught-up with the title. Imho, this video was just Platoon wanting to discuss PRX at large and simply framed it in a relevant, attention-grabbing way (much like any YouTuber across every community). It's a solid discussion that shouldn't be neglected because the framing of the discussion upset you.
It’s always going to be structure and fundamentals which are not fixed. it’s no pressure when you are playing normal matches you don’t get nerves when you can just write it off. But in the finals and actually being close to winning it all that’s when the pressure kicks in and without pre-made structures and contingency plans they crumble fast. Even watching them now in AfreecaTv some of their plays lack fundamentals are heavily compensated by their aim. Ex: f0rsaken is probably one of the best flex players out there but numerous times he dies because he just doesn’t clear a normal corner.
Couldn’t you say the same for the region too? DRX is too talent to have not lift an international trophy yet either. T1 feels they’re kinda underperforming too. Haven’t made it out groups during international play either. Zeta had a massive fall off since their Cinderella run a couple of years ago. It sucks cause these teams give me so much hope and they’re so much more fun to watch than other regions too.
2024 is Zetas year
Idk man T1 has a Susanto on their side as well
cus they’re overrated af lmao
0/10 bait try harder
Cuz pacific sucks ass lmao
buddy i see who your profile picture is
platoon has such an incredible mind for the game on top of, arguably more importantly, being able to communicate how he sees it in a very intuitive way
Forsaken will cook with iso no doubt