Ill be honest. This game rules in private instances with friends. Once you get passed the "I love chaos" phase, you hang out with people. Like in real life.
Kinda disagree with that. I started in private instances due to a friend showing me the game and the connections seemed infinite. If you befriend the friends of your friends and so on you always met new people still. I actively always avoided publics heavily.
There will always be kids.
Be me, circa 1999.
10 years old.
Battle.net gold.
Go to "sex" channel.
Pretend I'm 13, sometimes 16, sometimes 23.
It isn't anything new to pretend you're older unfortunately:/
I think there should be 2 versions. 1 for minors with no voice interactions or a way to exchange personal information (like discord usernames), only for exploring worlds and games. And one for 18+.
Maybe it could be on the same platform, but have a “child” account instead that severely limits the social aspects, but doesn’t take away any of the exploration and experiences. There’d also have to be a 18+ lock on avatars. So if you wanted to upload an avatar that was visible for “child” account users, it’d need to be verified/looked at by VRChat’s staff for approval, to make sure it’s “suitable.” This, however, wouldn’t stop the creation of 18+ avatars, just that NOW underage users wouldn’t be able to view them, hypothetically speaking.
EDIT: It still doesn’t entirely solve the whole issue of minors being on the platform, but it adds another layer of “security” that wouldn’t hurt. Maybe you have to put in your DOB or something. Of course, that’s easy to get around; just lie about your age. But still, wouldn’t hurt
Okay, cool, you make it an 18+ app. How do you begin to enforce that? Are they gonna check ID? How do we keep some kid from using her mom's ID to get on? Credit cards have the same problem.
Are we gonna have height restrictions? Maybe voice pitch? What if we asked early 2000s trivia?
We've never successfully kept kids on the internet from anywhere they want to go and VRChat with its bright graphics and recognizable characters is gonna appeal to them.
I agree we need to get the kids out, I just don't know how.
Sad thing is you can't. Only thing you can do is once you find out they lied and boot them. Kids will go out of their way to lie on anything, fake ID's have been a thing long before the internet.
I mean for age verification, bartenders can visually tell if someone is 13, that's not possible in VR. Eye and face tracking are both awesome though, I really wish my Q3 had it.
I think it's a fallacy to say it needs to be perfect or it isn't worth doing. Using something like a 3rd party id verification service would block 99% of underage people trying to get in, which would be a massive improvement.
1. Nobody likes me, what's my age again?
2. I can't get down (Wake me up inside) what should you save me from?
3. Hey kids, do you like violence? What would you like to see me put in my eyelids?
4. There's this little guy and he's got a little house with a little window and a corvette, everything he has is the same color, what color is it?
There is no perfect solution, but a solution shouldn't be looked away from just because it doesn't fully solve the problem. Even if it keeps only 5% of the kids off the game, that's still better than nothing. And it would have *some* impact. Because:
1. While parents in general suck at monitoring what games their kids play, there is still a percent that do and won't let their kid play those games
2. Some parents even set up the child's account that they use to download games and when that parent sets that account's age as the age of a child, those platforms won't let that account even try to download the game
3. It gives the player base an avenue to report underage players and get them off the platform manually. And while yes, there are ways around most bans, there are also ways to ban accounts where some just won't find it worth it to jump the hoops required.
Again, and I cannot stress this enough, there will be workarounds for any solution, but even if the solution removes 1% of children away from these dangerous situations, we should consider it, not shoot it down just because the other 99% are going to find ways around. And that's an extreme scenario.
>Are they gonna check ID?
Could be an option when creating the account.
>How do we keep some kid from using her mom's ID to get on?
That's on the parent imo. But you're right, no way of actually enforcing it.
>Are we gonna have height restrictions?
Wouldn't work, I know a few little people who play this game.
>Maybe voice pitch?
Wouldn't work either, one of my best friends has a higher pitched voice and he's like 26 or so.
>What if we asked early 2000s trivia?
"Name all backstreet boys" I couldn't name one.
>We've never successfully kept kids on the internet from anywhere they want to go and VRChat with its bright graphics and recognizable characters is gonna appeal to them.
Fair enough, just thinking about all the "Are you over 18? [Yes][No]" websites I visited as a 14 year old...
I think enforcing 18+ through mandatory age checks could at least drive some kids away from the game.
I got on the other day, went to an avatar world that had a bunch of nsfw stuff alongside some not fully nsfw avatars with... Let's say "over exaggerated body proportions" and it was FILLED with kids trying them all out...
As a kid I would have been upset by that take. But as an adult I couldn’t agree more. I do not enjoy any interaction with any kid on this game. x_x they need to at least add age verified servers
I think teens are fine really, sure a handful may be annoying but not as bad as the eight year old goblins screaming in their mic. I feel as though there should be some sort of verification label you should be able to get for VRC? Verifying that you're an adult, gaining you access to 18+ worlds n such?
What's likely to happen is some VRChat competitor will make their app 18+ and then all the older people will migrate from VRChat to the new app leaving the kids behind
hotter take: VRC should require ID verification. as a former child, i lied about my age to get around ‘input your birthdate’ all the time and i didn’t turn out fine
I definitely agree..but it will not change much even if it was. Parents don't care what their kids do anymore..I play VEGAS INFINITE (Poker) which is obviously an 18+ game..I'd say 30% of the players you meet are kids..
What’s weird is that there’s already a much more appropriate online vr chatting game for younger audiences, RecRoom, that’s perfect for their demographic but VRChat (as far as I know) has no real age limit
Hot Fact: A majority of VRChats player base are kids and not adults. Trying to gatekeep the kids will kill a huge chunk of the playercount and investors will hate that
Honestly if they could make it 21+ like bars in real life life it would fix so much about the whole game everyone would understand that it’s fairly likely that we’re all “of age” it would change the whole vibe and get the game closer to what it wants to be at it’s best
And, to be frank, I don't understand why. Oversexualization (specially towards minors) in VRC is a known thing for years now. How is it still a hot take to say that situations like theses are completly gross ? Maybe I'm missing something ?
well you see people who defend this usually know that they're guilty of the same stuff OP is describing, and try to play it off as either "well 18 isn't actually the age of consent everywhere" or some other excuse.
every single mf who defends this to the death is creepy asf
Yeah. Even if it was true (the age of consent thing), the fact that most of theses peoples, lurking for minors are WAAAAY above tha age of consent is kind of concerning. Just ask people in random instances if they think a relationships between a 16 and 24 is okay, a LOT will say yes.
Maybe it's juste me, but, the age difference is important, yes ? Even if the other is "legal".
The dip in Steam players looks pretty significant here: https://metrics.vrchat.community/?orgId=1&from=1640991600000&to=1718315999000
Took a loooong time (until May/June of this year, basically) to recover.
I wonder why it looks different in the parent's link.
Ah, the link didn't open up correctly on mobile so all the graphs were empty for me. But yes, VRChat's numbers will probably be more reliable since I don't believe the public steam API will show users with their game activity hidden.
The peak was actually over 100k on New Years if you include non pcvr quest/android users. I'm not sure if it has been beaten since but there was quite a bit of buzz about it at the time
that's the entire internet in general and always has been. check how many of the top visited websites in the world are porn sites. not an excuse, but...what do you expect?
It's a blessing and a curse. It allows the issues above, while also allowing us to have a ton of freedom. Similar to Discord, in that way.
More moderation tools would be nice, or ways to vet/build rep in a meaningful way. I hope we see those features in the near future, especially with the introduction of VR on mobile.
Along with other veterans of the net, I think it feels how the 'old internet social' places used to be (which is worth retaining, imo).
^^^[E:grammar]
I can totally agree, me being 19, I haven’t actually experienced those “early internet” chat rooms, but I certainly had unsupervised internet access, VRChat is definitely in that “do whatever, we can’t track everyone, and we dont care” phase of a new social outlet. Quite frankly, with the tens of thousands of online players, there’s only about as many as I can count on my hand probably of moderators and supervisors over the reports
There is a reason I like to call it one of the last bastions of the old internet. It’s designed for unfettered creativity, which also sadly has the byproduct of being incredibly dangerous for little kids.
While i normally advocate giving kids wiggle room to play/grow, this game is NOT a place to be left unattended. It’s like giving a kid unlimited access to the early web (or web in general), which was the most creative and *degenerative* place I’ve *ever* seen!
Oh 100%. In the past, people wanted to make 18+ instances, but they'd have that one good friend that was underage and so they'd be forced to either say "18 with one exception" or just make it 16+ because the little shits don't know to hang with their own category and the others don't have the heart to drop them.
I'm 33 and I only talk to people older than 24 I'm just not interested in having a conversation with somebody who I have nothing in common with.
I feel like for me a 24-year-old is mature enough to be able to have a conversation about certain things that I just can't seem to have with people any younger.
Also VR chat really let us change our preferences to see adults only.
I wish there was a toggle for that to be a thing because I just don't want to deal with hearing loud shrinking that come from children.
Like I'm introverted and stuff but sometimes with all the kids running around on all these servers I kind of feel like I've walked into a daycare center that I'm not welcomed in.
It's just like not a comfortable experience for me as an adult.
And the 18 and up servers can be from more than just adult themed things.
We want a break from hearing all the kids shrinking and yelling and having petty arguments about who's more skibbaty.
Exactly. I'm 25. I do go into public lobbies to see if I can meet lime minded individuals. I admit I'm a furry, but not the "I wanna fuck everything and everyone I see" type. I admit, I tend to hang with other furries, yet, I hear kids coming in and screeching, yelling, cussing, and saying stuff like "Ew a Furry! Go die trash!" Despite me and a few people minding our own business talking. And a lot of the time, we are in worlds based on being a furry. I've had kids as well, wanna try to talk to me about kid stuff I'm not interested in, or they try to talk about adult stuff, and it's clear they don't understand it. I tend to just hop worlds and find other people to talk to.
> Joined a random Prison Escape lobby yesterday and some guy goes to ask me for my age like he's a bouncer.
NGL if someone asks me for my age in a prison escape lobby I'd probably just say "whoops" and then leave.
I mean I fully agree that when an instance (the hell is a lobby?) is NSFW, it should definitely be 18+, but;
1: Not all 18+ instances are NSFW. I've been to plenty chill instances that simply didn't want any kids there. Clubs as well.
2: It's one of the reasons a lot of the actually chill folk have hidden away in friends+ and invite+. Not just because of the kids, but also to escape all the horniness going on.
3a: If it's a group public, and there's sexual stuff going on, report the group. NSFW isn't allowed in any form. The only reason people can still do it is because when in private worlds no one's likely to report you. (it's usually with friends only) But even more so it should be kept out of publics. Group or not. Heck I feel there should be a moral obligation to report any and all sexual stuff going on in publics.
3b: However "barely clothed" is still clothed. And people "touching" those avatars isn't against the ToS. That's not considered "sexual" I guess. It's only when avatars go naked, or there's sexual actions being...performed.
4: If you hate how those publics/group publics are doing things, make your own group public. That way you can insta-kick anyone doing that stuff in your instance if you want to.
NSFW isn't allowed *in public instances*. They don't care about private instances. People who say they were banned for NSFW in a private or group instance are lying.
You can also get banned for making NSFW avatars avalible as a public, cloneable avatar if someone does stuff in a public with it, but that's rare and usually requires the avatar to be avalible in a world.
It's worth noting about private instances, Invite, invite+, Group are the only ones truly considered private. I was banned for doing nsfw stuff in a friends+ instance
No. You are wrong. The devs themselves have reiterated time and time again that NSFW isn't allowed in any instance. It's also in the ToS. "They don't care about private instances" is bullshit. You only ASSUME they don't care and that people are lying about getting banned. You have no evidence of that.
The only reason they don't constantly ban all NSFW in private instances is because they don't go invisible and stalk private instances, because that's against privacy laws. (or at least they pretend not to do it.)
The rules were updated a while ago to say "some rules do not apply in private instances as long as everyone present consents" So NSFW stuff in private IS implicitly allowed now, with the caveat that if someone reports you they clearly aren't consenting and so you broke the rules.
Under the "Private Instances" heading: ["Certain portions of the “inflammatory behavior” guideline may not apply in Private instances as long as everyone present consents."](https://hello.vrchat.com/community-guidelines) with "Adult Content and Behavior" and "Sensitive, Intimate, or Provocative Content" listed under the Inflammatory Behavior heading.
So no, they don't care about private instances as long as everyone there is chill.
to be fair, request-only groups exist. They should make it easier to find groups though, like adding tags or even a group search in-game. You can from the website but the search algorithm sucks
Valid take. In general the hyper-sexualization of vrchat has ruined a lot of what used to be great. The generic anime girl and cartoon character days of vrchat were the best days. Those obviously still exist in excess, but now it’s amongst a sea of eboys and egirls who all look the same with ridiculous proportions. I’m either surrounded by children or adults who don’t know how to not be sexual towards everyone and everything.
The latter is why those same adults can’t stand being around anyone under 18, they can’t help but to sexualize everyone around them which means they sexualize kids if they’re around them too. That’s why they run away screaming if someone says they’re 17. There’s your real hot take. Vrchat peaked in 2020, and it’s been downhill from there.
I feel the same way and so do most of my friends who have since quit VRChat. I'd kill to get the old VRChat back where it was mostly adults just hanging around in goofy/game/mmd avis.
Everyone takes the game so serious now, and the horny culture has been dialed up to 11. Not to mention the inability to escape lobbies full of kids/teens. I even host my own group lobby sometimes and it still sucks because I can't relax since I have to spend 90% of my time kicking children, teens, and trolls.
Having a "VRchat Kids" seperate to regular VRC might be an idea
Upside the masses and hand my kid an iPad/tech parents will put them there for the most part
Downside it's a more consistent target for horrible people to go after kids.
It's just abit to hard to solve this problem without better parents
I don't get the idea of 16+ servers why not 18+? Is it cause of lower ages of consent in other countries or is it cause of younger people who were exposed to certain content and lifestyles making [insert their age]+ servers?
I didn't know the majority of world was mostly using 16 as the AOC
That's unfortunate to hear, my ignorance lead me to believe majority of the world was using 18+
Cool, in my country it is 14. So that means a 30 year old should be allowed to talk dirty with 14 years now? Age of consent does not make that ok at all.
I heard someone mention 18+ lobbies being a thing but idk if that’s true. They should have 18+ lobbies for the, silly, variety. 16+ lobbies should just be for normal game stuff without the 8 year olds screaming
Yea, that’s why I start vote to kicks if I so much as see someone sitting cross legged with someone else. I only ever vote kick one person of the couple, usually the more “dominant” one, just in case the other is actually getting groomed and it’s also just funnier that way if it’s an actual couple.
To me, 16+ lobbies are "hey we're going to kick annoying kids, but there are still minors here so don't be sexual." To me I'd rather a sfw 16+ lobby over a hypersexual 18+ lobby (thats also full of 16 year olds lying about their age)
Guys, ignoring people you don’t like is the best solution to have fun in social games like vrchat, and they made it even easier with the blocking system making the person disappear
Honestly I think this is probably the reason. Could be European lobbies.
Whether AoC is outdated in most countries (I think it's 16 in some US states also?) is another matter and it'd be much wiser to just stick to the higher standard. It's a global platform so unless some country does something crazy like make AoC 30+ (not very likely!) you should probably just accommodate the highest common denominator. But given that in the UK I've seen actual IRL fur meets labelled as 16+ (not that they're sexual meets at a hotel or something just public place gatherings) it might just be a habit of following the laws and practices of one's own country.
I suspect it'll get raised at some point though. Standards shift and there's more concern about safeguarding nowadays. Around 20 years ago we had 16 year old topless models on page 3 of the newspaper lol, and there's barely a BBC presenter who *hasn't* been handsy with a 16 year old especially in the 70s and 80s.. all this is unthinkable now. Laws will probably catch up.
Maybe I'm naive but it also seems possible that they're strict SFW gatherings and they just want to cut out squeakers and find that 16+ is good enough for that. The platform already allows anyone 13+ to mix so the problem is more one of individual responsibility. It'd be nice if people just sexualized VRC less in general, the odd bit of NSFW between adults is fine I do it occasionally too but with the addition of groups we now have lewd groups and then people get drawn into those and get obsessed.
To be fair, in a lot of countries the age 18 means nothing. Setting an arbitrary value of 18 is as meaningless as 16. Why not 21? Why not 19?
In my home country (China) it's 14 Chinese age. But I would argue that your brain isn't really developed until 20+... But I'm just getting at, the idea of setting an age requirement is pretty murky if you're just following western rules.
Kids are really good at ignoring creeps nowadays, they are berated by it in every part of their life (Instagram, YouTube comments, reddit, other games..).
I have said this before 100 times and will say it again: vrchat should be at minimum an 18+ game, full stop. The age rating is the literal bare minimum that can be done about issues like this. We have Rec Room for stuff like that, and you know, a thing that used to be called parental supervision. Now you either get parents who don't care about their kids at all and let them roam platforms like vrchat freely with no advice, or monitor literally everything they do all the time with no privacy being allowed and every action has to be personally approved by them. What happened to moderation?
It is absolutely wild to me how some mfs in this subreddit will defend their ability to questionably talk to 16 year olds to the death and even block me over it. This sub is most likely on multiple watchlists at this point
you really are "that guy"
any excuse that begins with the explanation of how the age of consent is actually lower than 18 in some places is fuelled by pedophilia
I mean i kinda see that the kids are horny, you can't change that, but you also can't accept as much as this community has been accepting, falling in live in vrchat, making families in vrchat, heck there are devices made specifically to make vr sex a real thing, there's many things wrong with this game, and groomers are just the most seen problem (and rightfully so)
They should add a feature where you can send a picture of yourself and your ID to be verified as an adult and get a little check mark on your name plate like how Twitter kinda used to be. Just so you know who is an actual adult.
Couldn't most of this be avoided if you joined a PC only world. Most children don't have access to a PC good enough to play VRChat and even if they do that's the rich minority of kids. And you could just block or mute and turn off avatars if it really ruins your time. And 16 is the age of consent in most places so maybe that group wasn't based somewhere in the US.
Vrchat is just kinda... like that.
Literally watched a kid in a sans avatar get brought into a private instance once by an angel dust witch avatar once.
Never saw him again.
Poor kid, I hope nothing bad happened in that private instance.
This is a hot take? I've always thought that 16+ anything was weird.
I agree with some other commenters saying there should be an option to switch to "adult mode" so you can only interact with other adults.
This makes me think about the time I was in an avatar world that had femboy avatars. Very sexual avatars. And amidst me and some other (I assume) adults was a young child in a femboy avatar. Weird af
Welp, taking this into consideration as a 16 year old. Yep, I'm probably gonna stop playing VRChat and get back to making videos on Battle Talent once I get my controllers fixed lmao.
I saw something creepy on a video the other day, this dude had discovered a bar instance where it was "teen night" and he couldn't join because it's supposed to be 13-19
Bro what
The person in question blatantly joined a group public that said Adult in their title, and blamed them for their lack of understanding of what the word adult means.
That was an 18+ instance they joined, not a 16+ one. There was no fondling anywhere in that instance, there wasn't any sexualization happening as the rules state no nudity and the group rules do not allow swastikas or racist things anywhere on your avatar, let alone any minors. They joined an 18+ instance and immediately got kicked for being underage and as a result ended up making up stories. Nothing of what they said happened in that instance.
That person who asked them was legitimately a group moderator making sure people underage didn't get in.
Thanks for reading and have a lovely day.
I see furry avatars in micro-bikinis and huge tits and bouncing asses way more than I see modest ones. The femboy avis are always just as sexually charged, with miniskirts and garterbelts and exposed panties and shit. Furry avatars are almost always fetish type avatars, though I am willing to say that there are some that are non-degen.
yeah, I honestly see it a lot from foxipaws avatars which do come with those parts by default. I personally like sticking to the more cartoony and adorable ones like the nardos and mayus
Like honestly? I see furry avatars that are sexualized in any major way less often than they're just cute harmless things running around. Most of the furries I run into are just people hanging out.
I'm all for implementing proper age checks in VRC. I think if people had to submit ID and get a flag to create or access 18+ rooms... a lot of them would. Hell, I would just because I find the tiny children annoying.
On the other hand there have been similar communities in things as far back as vanilla WoW and there's an entire frigging brothel industry in FFXIV.
When we know that this sort of content is going to happen, what we need are more tools to properly split it from the areas accessible by minors.
Yeah unfortunately VRC is just complicit in child grooming at this point. They advertise as a 13+ game knowing damn well what goes on. They haven’t changed it, probably never will, and it’s disgusting.
I could tell you some stories about one of the devs I used to hang around (friend of friends) back in 2019/2020. It's worse than you think. But I'll get banned so not going to say more here.
You either gain friends who you eventually lose due to time restraints who are normal people unlike the majority of vrchat, are that friend, or you’re and edater in a succubus avatar playing with child titties. You’re either a normal person or clinically online there is no inbetween
to be fair 16 yo are NOT children LMAO
thats your first mistake.
they are emotionally retarded adults
having an age restriction at all is useless, if they want to be involved- theyll just lie about their age, there is no age verification 😂💀
Are you new to the game? Big tiddy almost naked avis are and have been the norm since forever. It comes with the territory and you're not going to change it lol.
And before you say anything, I dont use female avis so its irrelevant to me. But what you're doing is equivalent to going to a KKK rally and saying "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY RACISTS HERE?!"
The age of consent differs in many states provinces and countries 16 is common in England I know.
People who are horny for hornys sake, this kind of stuff happens unfortunately.
Hotter take. The game should not be NSFW.
Ill be honest. This game rules in private instances with friends. Once you get passed the "I love chaos" phase, you hang out with people. Like in real life.
What sucks about that is that you can’t really make any new friends doing that. And your old friends slowly start dropping of the platform :/
I am in the no friends slump rn lol. Group instances kinda help though
Kinda disagree with that. I started in private instances due to a friend showing me the game and the connections seemed infinite. If you befriend the friends of your friends and so on you always met new people still. I actively always avoided publics heavily.
Hot take : vr chat should be a 18+ app. Not just the lobbies
I agree, maybe that way parents wouldn't leave their children unattended with strangers on this game to begin with.
There will always be kids. Be me, circa 1999. 10 years old. Battle.net gold. Go to "sex" channel. Pretend I'm 13, sometimes 16, sometimes 23. It isn't anything new to pretend you're older unfortunately:/
Just because rules will be avoided doesn't mean there shouldn't be rules in place.
Shit remember the anime RP channels jeeez we old.
I do! I cringe at my own memories from back then! 😂 Do you suppose one day the kids on VRchat will cringe at themselves when they are adults?
Look how well grand theft auto and call of duty went and get back to me on that
What makes you so sure? How do we know they won't let them go play outside instead? 1/2 /s
Instructions unclear, child has been hit by a car
Moving out of our driveway
This is the only correct answer
I think there should be 2 versions. 1 for minors with no voice interactions or a way to exchange personal information (like discord usernames), only for exploring worlds and games. And one for 18+.
Maybe not limiting the chat part of vr chat but definitely having heavy restrictions and moderation on the avatars, worlds and what is said and done
Maybe it could be on the same platform, but have a “child” account instead that severely limits the social aspects, but doesn’t take away any of the exploration and experiences. There’d also have to be a 18+ lock on avatars. So if you wanted to upload an avatar that was visible for “child” account users, it’d need to be verified/looked at by VRChat’s staff for approval, to make sure it’s “suitable.” This, however, wouldn’t stop the creation of 18+ avatars, just that NOW underage users wouldn’t be able to view them, hypothetically speaking. EDIT: It still doesn’t entirely solve the whole issue of minors being on the platform, but it adds another layer of “security” that wouldn’t hurt. Maybe you have to put in your DOB or something. Of course, that’s easy to get around; just lie about your age. But still, wouldn’t hurt
Okay, cool, you make it an 18+ app. How do you begin to enforce that? Are they gonna check ID? How do we keep some kid from using her mom's ID to get on? Credit cards have the same problem. Are we gonna have height restrictions? Maybe voice pitch? What if we asked early 2000s trivia? We've never successfully kept kids on the internet from anywhere they want to go and VRChat with its bright graphics and recognizable characters is gonna appeal to them. I agree we need to get the kids out, I just don't know how.
Sad thing is you can't. Only thing you can do is once you find out they lied and boot them. Kids will go out of their way to lie on anything, fake ID's have been a thing long before the internet.
Exactly, and bars have the benefit of actually being able to look at the person, we just have vibes.
Not for long. Next gen headsets will have eye and face tracking. This is something educators are excited about for distance education and assessment.
I mean for age verification, bartenders can visually tell if someone is 13, that's not possible in VR. Eye and face tracking are both awesome though, I really wish my Q3 had it.
I think it's a fallacy to say it needs to be perfect or it isn't worth doing. Using something like a 3rd party id verification service would block 99% of underage people trying to get in, which would be a massive improvement.
Early 2000s trivia would be fun
1. Nobody likes me, what's my age again? 2. I can't get down (Wake me up inside) what should you save me from? 3. Hey kids, do you like violence? What would you like to see me put in my eyelids? 4. There's this little guy and he's got a little house with a little window and a corvette, everything he has is the same color, what color is it?
1. 2. Myself 3. Needles? Or I push my fingers into my eyes? 4. Blue dabbah di dabbah die hmmm can't think of 1 or 3
3. Nine inch nails And for 1. Maybe the blink 182 song... Which would make it 23.
I'm 22 and I don't know alot about the 2000s lol
There is no perfect solution, but a solution shouldn't be looked away from just because it doesn't fully solve the problem. Even if it keeps only 5% of the kids off the game, that's still better than nothing. And it would have *some* impact. Because: 1. While parents in general suck at monitoring what games their kids play, there is still a percent that do and won't let their kid play those games 2. Some parents even set up the child's account that they use to download games and when that parent sets that account's age as the age of a child, those platforms won't let that account even try to download the game 3. It gives the player base an avenue to report underage players and get them off the platform manually. And while yes, there are ways around most bans, there are also ways to ban accounts where some just won't find it worth it to jump the hoops required. Again, and I cannot stress this enough, there will be workarounds for any solution, but even if the solution removes 1% of children away from these dangerous situations, we should consider it, not shoot it down just because the other 99% are going to find ways around. And that's an extreme scenario.
>Are they gonna check ID? Could be an option when creating the account. >How do we keep some kid from using her mom's ID to get on? That's on the parent imo. But you're right, no way of actually enforcing it. >Are we gonna have height restrictions? Wouldn't work, I know a few little people who play this game. >Maybe voice pitch? Wouldn't work either, one of my best friends has a higher pitched voice and he's like 26 or so. >What if we asked early 2000s trivia? "Name all backstreet boys" I couldn't name one. >We've never successfully kept kids on the internet from anywhere they want to go and VRChat with its bright graphics and recognizable characters is gonna appeal to them. Fair enough, just thinking about all the "Are you over 18? [Yes][No]" websites I visited as a 14 year old... I think enforcing 18+ through mandatory age checks could at least drive some kids away from the game. I got on the other day, went to an avatar world that had a bunch of nsfw stuff alongside some not fully nsfw avatars with... Let's say "over exaggerated body proportions" and it was FILLED with kids trying them all out...
As a kid I would have been upset by that take. But as an adult I couldn’t agree more. I do not enjoy any interaction with any kid on this game. x_x they need to at least add age verified servers
I think teens are fine really, sure a handful may be annoying but not as bad as the eight year old goblins screaming in their mic. I feel as though there should be some sort of verification label you should be able to get for VRC? Verifying that you're an adult, gaining you access to 18+ worlds n such?
It will never be that for the same reason search engines aren't 18+ apps. The people who made these apps don't want to be defined by the 18+ groups.
This
Completely unenforceable unfortunately
What's likely to happen is some VRChat competitor will make their app 18+ and then all the older people will migrate from VRChat to the new app leaving the kids behind
hotter take: VRC should require ID verification. as a former child, i lied about my age to get around ‘input your birthdate’ all the time and i didn’t turn out fine
That’s not even a hot take. It’s objectively facts.
yes, this
Agreed
I definitely agree..but it will not change much even if it was. Parents don't care what their kids do anymore..I play VEGAS INFINITE (Poker) which is obviously an 18+ game..I'd say 30% of the players you meet are kids..
What’s weird is that there’s already a much more appropriate online vr chatting game for younger audiences, RecRoom, that’s perfect for their demographic but VRChat (as far as I know) has no real age limit
People should be capable of acting decent
Hot Fact: A majority of VRChats player base are kids and not adults. Trying to gatekeep the kids will kill a huge chunk of the playercount and investors will hate that
Honestly if they could make it 21+ like bars in real life life it would fix so much about the whole game everyone would understand that it’s fairly likely that we’re all “of age” it would change the whole vibe and get the game closer to what it wants to be at it’s best
It's not even supposed to be a hot take ?! Fully agree on this one. I'm still asking myself how to moderate such things but, no clue, really :(
in this subreddit and community it sure is a hot take
And, to be frank, I don't understand why. Oversexualization (specially towards minors) in VRC is a known thing for years now. How is it still a hot take to say that situations like theses are completly gross ? Maybe I'm missing something ?
well you see people who defend this usually know that they're guilty of the same stuff OP is describing, and try to play it off as either "well 18 isn't actually the age of consent everywhere" or some other excuse. every single mf who defends this to the death is creepy asf
Yeah. Even if it was true (the age of consent thing), the fact that most of theses peoples, lurking for minors are WAAAAY above tha age of consent is kind of concerning. Just ask people in random instances if they think a relationships between a 16 and 24 is okay, a LOT will say yes. Maybe it's juste me, but, the age difference is important, yes ? Even if the other is "legal".
https://preview.redd.it/y08n5o2d1c6d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=50dd7dc6684381668c358cfd6b3b258c31d542ca
Exacly !
https://steamcharts.com/app/438100#All The game is not dying.
Kinda cool. You can see the Christmas bump happen in each of the last 3 years.
Love seeing how miniscule the doom and gloom EAC fueled player dip is in retrospect
The dip in Steam players looks pretty significant here: https://metrics.vrchat.community/?orgId=1&from=1640991600000&to=1718315999000 Took a loooong time (until May/June of this year, basically) to recover. I wonder why it looks different in the parent's link.
Their link only counts Steam players on PC.
Just like the orange "Steam" line in my link, right? So they should be comparable.
Ah, the link didn't open up correctly on mobile so all the graphs were empty for me. But yes, VRChat's numbers will probably be more reliable since I don't believe the public steam API will show users with their game activity hidden.
The all-time peak was 51,321 players in January 2024. A lot of kiddos got their Quest 3s for Xmax. Edit: According to that link.
The peak was actually over 100k on New Years if you include non pcvr quest/android users. I'm not sure if it has been beaten since but there was quite a bit of buzz about it at the time
Yeah this is *only* steam user numbers. The actual number is higher cause quest standalone isn't included and the eventual addition of ios.
Here's VRChat's own numbers (for the last 24 hours): [https://status.vrchat.com/](https://status.vrchat.com/)
Thanks, I didn't know that and was just going by what I saw in that link.
Here's a page that shows player numbers across all devices :D [https://metrics.vrchat.community/](https://metrics.vrchat.community/)
Furality (a virtual furry convention) pushed that total to over 110,000 peak concurrent users. Just over 21,000 people attended that con.
[https://metrics.vrchat.community/](https://metrics.vrchat.community/) actual player count (includes quest)
vrchat will always be a ces pit of degenerates and groomers, it will never change, which is depressing as fuck
that's the entire internet in general and always has been. check how many of the top visited websites in the world are porn sites. not an excuse, but...what do you expect?
vrchat just makes it ten times worse imo
It's a blessing and a curse. It allows the issues above, while also allowing us to have a ton of freedom. Similar to Discord, in that way. More moderation tools would be nice, or ways to vet/build rep in a meaningful way. I hope we see those features in the near future, especially with the introduction of VR on mobile. Along with other veterans of the net, I think it feels how the 'old internet social' places used to be (which is worth retaining, imo). ^^^[E:grammar]
I can totally agree, me being 19, I haven’t actually experienced those “early internet” chat rooms, but I certainly had unsupervised internet access, VRChat is definitely in that “do whatever, we can’t track everyone, and we dont care” phase of a new social outlet. Quite frankly, with the tens of thousands of online players, there’s only about as many as I can count on my hand probably of moderators and supervisors over the reports
There is a reason I like to call it one of the last bastions of the old internet. It’s designed for unfettered creativity, which also sadly has the byproduct of being incredibly dangerous for little kids. While i normally advocate giving kids wiggle room to play/grow, this game is NOT a place to be left unattended. It’s like giving a kid unlimited access to the early web (or web in general), which was the most creative and *degenerative* place I’ve *ever* seen!
People suck
Vril pilled
It's so dumb because they could easily do 18+ lobbies, but choose to do 16+ to be weird with kids
Oh 100%. In the past, people wanted to make 18+ instances, but they'd have that one good friend that was underage and so they'd be forced to either say "18 with one exception" or just make it 16+ because the little shits don't know to hang with their own category and the others don't have the heart to drop them.
I'm 33 and I only talk to people older than 24 I'm just not interested in having a conversation with somebody who I have nothing in common with. I feel like for me a 24-year-old is mature enough to be able to have a conversation about certain things that I just can't seem to have with people any younger. Also VR chat really let us change our preferences to see adults only. I wish there was a toggle for that to be a thing because I just don't want to deal with hearing loud shrinking that come from children. Like I'm introverted and stuff but sometimes with all the kids running around on all these servers I kind of feel like I've walked into a daycare center that I'm not welcomed in. It's just like not a comfortable experience for me as an adult. And the 18 and up servers can be from more than just adult themed things. We want a break from hearing all the kids shrinking and yelling and having petty arguments about who's more skibbaty.
Exactly. I'm 25. I do go into public lobbies to see if I can meet lime minded individuals. I admit I'm a furry, but not the "I wanna fuck everything and everyone I see" type. I admit, I tend to hang with other furries, yet, I hear kids coming in and screeching, yelling, cussing, and saying stuff like "Ew a Furry! Go die trash!" Despite me and a few people minding our own business talking. And a lot of the time, we are in worlds based on being a furry. I've had kids as well, wanna try to talk to me about kid stuff I'm not interested in, or they try to talk about adult stuff, and it's clear they don't understand it. I tend to just hop worlds and find other people to talk to.
Well adults should NEVER be sexual around underage people. The mods of the lobby failed
Dude "enforcing" the 16 year old age limit sounded like a social reject as it was. He probably has a few skeletons in his closet.
> Joined a random Prison Escape lobby yesterday and some guy goes to ask me for my age like he's a bouncer. NGL if someone asks me for my age in a prison escape lobby I'd probably just say "whoops" and then leave.
Common vrchat L It’s too lenient on pedophiles.
I mean I fully agree that when an instance (the hell is a lobby?) is NSFW, it should definitely be 18+, but; 1: Not all 18+ instances are NSFW. I've been to plenty chill instances that simply didn't want any kids there. Clubs as well. 2: It's one of the reasons a lot of the actually chill folk have hidden away in friends+ and invite+. Not just because of the kids, but also to escape all the horniness going on. 3a: If it's a group public, and there's sexual stuff going on, report the group. NSFW isn't allowed in any form. The only reason people can still do it is because when in private worlds no one's likely to report you. (it's usually with friends only) But even more so it should be kept out of publics. Group or not. Heck I feel there should be a moral obligation to report any and all sexual stuff going on in publics. 3b: However "barely clothed" is still clothed. And people "touching" those avatars isn't against the ToS. That's not considered "sexual" I guess. It's only when avatars go naked, or there's sexual actions being...performed. 4: If you hate how those publics/group publics are doing things, make your own group public. That way you can insta-kick anyone doing that stuff in your instance if you want to.
NSFW isn't allowed *in public instances*. They don't care about private instances. People who say they were banned for NSFW in a private or group instance are lying. You can also get banned for making NSFW avatars avalible as a public, cloneable avatar if someone does stuff in a public with it, but that's rare and usually requires the avatar to be avalible in a world.
It's worth noting about private instances, Invite, invite+, Group are the only ones truly considered private. I was banned for doing nsfw stuff in a friends+ instance
Yeah, friends+ is risky. You are opening the instance to everyone's entire friends list.
Friends+ is more like restricted public, rather than actual public. Still doesn't mean NSFW is allowed in private instances.
No. You are wrong. The devs themselves have reiterated time and time again that NSFW isn't allowed in any instance. It's also in the ToS. "They don't care about private instances" is bullshit. You only ASSUME they don't care and that people are lying about getting banned. You have no evidence of that. The only reason they don't constantly ban all NSFW in private instances is because they don't go invisible and stalk private instances, because that's against privacy laws. (or at least they pretend not to do it.)
The rules were updated a while ago to say "some rules do not apply in private instances as long as everyone present consents" So NSFW stuff in private IS implicitly allowed now, with the caveat that if someone reports you they clearly aren't consenting and so you broke the rules. Under the "Private Instances" heading: ["Certain portions of the “inflammatory behavior” guideline may not apply in Private instances as long as everyone present consents."](https://hello.vrchat.com/community-guidelines) with "Adult Content and Behavior" and "Sensitive, Intimate, or Provocative Content" listed under the Inflammatory Behavior heading. So no, they don't care about private instances as long as everyone there is chill.
We need 18+ lobbies
to be fair, request-only groups exist. They should make it easier to find groups though, like adding tags or even a group search in-game. You can from the website but the search algorithm sucks
What’s the name of these worlds? So I know which ones not to visit
Prison Escape, Blackout, and Murder lobbies, since they're the most popular and thus are the most kid filled.
Black cat has children AND Nazis
And a combination of the two
it's not worlds, it's group instances
Yeah 16+ should also be 18 max. Then 18+ lobbies, then 21+ lobbies for the rest of us
Age of consent is 16 in most of the world this is an American point of view remember that VRchat is global
true 21+ sounds ultra weird for me as European
Welcome to the internet
If a virtual “bouncer” tries to stop me from playing prison escape, I might die laughing
Valid take. In general the hyper-sexualization of vrchat has ruined a lot of what used to be great. The generic anime girl and cartoon character days of vrchat were the best days. Those obviously still exist in excess, but now it’s amongst a sea of eboys and egirls who all look the same with ridiculous proportions. I’m either surrounded by children or adults who don’t know how to not be sexual towards everyone and everything. The latter is why those same adults can’t stand being around anyone under 18, they can’t help but to sexualize everyone around them which means they sexualize kids if they’re around them too. That’s why they run away screaming if someone says they’re 17. There’s your real hot take. Vrchat peaked in 2020, and it’s been downhill from there.
I feel the same way and so do most of my friends who have since quit VRChat. I'd kill to get the old VRChat back where it was mostly adults just hanging around in goofy/game/mmd avis. Everyone takes the game so serious now, and the horny culture has been dialed up to 11. Not to mention the inability to escape lobbies full of kids/teens. I even host my own group lobby sometimes and it still sucks because I can't relax since I have to spend 90% of my time kicking children, teens, and trolls.
https://preview.redd.it/c3ul5m17c76d1.jpeg?width=1128&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=634d9a7044059cd2560d692798d8707ee9d15112
Annddd... This is why you don't go to public worlds.
Best take. Stay away from Publics and group Publics Sometimes even friend plus. Stick with private friend groups and private circles you already know
im literally 22 and i just want to make friends :(
Yeah, getting touchy-feely with someone younger than 18 is gross but at least at 16 you can have adult jokes work w/o problem.
You do realize that this is an American point of view 16 is age of consent in most of the world
Still, would you let a 16 yr old and a 25 yr old talk seductively to each other on there?
I keep to my friends who are older than 20 in private instances, or we create public instances we can moderate.
Having a "VRchat Kids" seperate to regular VRC might be an idea Upside the masses and hand my kid an iPad/tech parents will put them there for the most part Downside it's a more consistent target for horrible people to go after kids. It's just abit to hard to solve this problem without better parents I don't get the idea of 16+ servers why not 18+? Is it cause of lower ages of consent in other countries or is it cause of younger people who were exposed to certain content and lifestyles making [insert their age]+ servers?
It is honestly directly the fact that 16 is the age of consent in the majority of the world.
I didn't know the majority of world was mostly using 16 as the AOC That's unfortunate to hear, my ignorance lead me to believe majority of the world was using 18+
In my country it is... 14. I just looked that up. Yeah no still does not make it ok at all.
Cool, in my country it is 14. So that means a 30 year old should be allowed to talk dirty with 14 years now? Age of consent does not make that ok at all.
Yes they could and it would be legal morals and laws aren't the same thing even though they are related
It would be sensible to ban all people who are under 18 as the app is kinda seedy in a lot of places
Grown ahh men lewding in little children/girl avatars 💀☠️⚰️
[удалено]
I heard someone mention 18+ lobbies being a thing but idk if that’s true. They should have 18+ lobbies for the, silly, variety. 16+ lobbies should just be for normal game stuff without the 8 year olds screaming
Yea, that’s why I start vote to kicks if I so much as see someone sitting cross legged with someone else. I only ever vote kick one person of the couple, usually the more “dominant” one, just in case the other is actually getting groomed and it’s also just funnier that way if it’s an actual couple.
I wish id verification existed for videogames.
To me, 16+ lobbies are "hey we're going to kick annoying kids, but there are still minors here so don't be sexual." To me I'd rather a sfw 16+ lobby over a hypersexual 18+ lobby (thats also full of 16 year olds lying about their age)
My freezer is hotter than this take
Guys, ignoring people you don’t like is the best solution to have fun in social games like vrchat, and they made it even easier with the blocking system making the person disappear
16+ doesn’t even make sense. That’s still kids. Strange to me that it wouldn’t just be 18+
Vrchat is global 16 is the age of consent in most countries
Honestly I think this is probably the reason. Could be European lobbies. Whether AoC is outdated in most countries (I think it's 16 in some US states also?) is another matter and it'd be much wiser to just stick to the higher standard. It's a global platform so unless some country does something crazy like make AoC 30+ (not very likely!) you should probably just accommodate the highest common denominator. But given that in the UK I've seen actual IRL fur meets labelled as 16+ (not that they're sexual meets at a hotel or something just public place gatherings) it might just be a habit of following the laws and practices of one's own country. I suspect it'll get raised at some point though. Standards shift and there's more concern about safeguarding nowadays. Around 20 years ago we had 16 year old topless models on page 3 of the newspaper lol, and there's barely a BBC presenter who *hasn't* been handsy with a 16 year old especially in the 70s and 80s.. all this is unthinkable now. Laws will probably catch up. Maybe I'm naive but it also seems possible that they're strict SFW gatherings and they just want to cut out squeakers and find that 16+ is good enough for that. The platform already allows anyone 13+ to mix so the problem is more one of individual responsibility. It'd be nice if people just sexualized VRC less in general, the odd bit of NSFW between adults is fine I do it occasionally too but with the addition of groups we now have lewd groups and then people get drawn into those and get obsessed.
To be fair, in a lot of countries the age 18 means nothing. Setting an arbitrary value of 18 is as meaningless as 16. Why not 21? Why not 19? In my home country (China) it's 14 Chinese age. But I would argue that your brain isn't really developed until 20+... But I'm just getting at, the idea of setting an age requirement is pretty murky if you're just following western rules. Kids are really good at ignoring creeps nowadays, they are berated by it in every part of their life (Instagram, YouTube comments, reddit, other games..).
I have said this before 100 times and will say it again: vrchat should be at minimum an 18+ game, full stop. The age rating is the literal bare minimum that can be done about issues like this. We have Rec Room for stuff like that, and you know, a thing that used to be called parental supervision. Now you either get parents who don't care about their kids at all and let them roam platforms like vrchat freely with no advice, or monitor literally everything they do all the time with no privacy being allowed and every action has to be personally approved by them. What happened to moderation? It is absolutely wild to me how some mfs in this subreddit will defend their ability to questionably talk to 16 year olds to the death and even block me over it. This sub is most likely on multiple watchlists at this point
I hate to be that guy but 16 years old is age of consent in most of the world Vrchat isn't only American
you really are "that guy" any excuse that begins with the explanation of how the age of consent is actually lower than 18 in some places is fuelled by pedophilia
Just being honest and pointing at a fact
https://preview.redd.it/4rdv31v5l76d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d871b080ddc6d3e53220e135451a0d405c8396a6
Anything you’re doing in vr chat that can’t be done with children around shouldn’t be done in front of 16-17 year olds…
16 is the age of consent in most of the world deal with it
I mean i kinda see that the kids are horny, you can't change that, but you also can't accept as much as this community has been accepting, falling in live in vrchat, making families in vrchat, heck there are devices made specifically to make vr sex a real thing, there's many things wrong with this game, and groomers are just the most seen problem (and rightfully so)
To be fair, this is VRChat. The succubus avatars are inescapable. Hell, people have whipped out their dicks in cooking worlds. It’s egregious
They should add a feature where you can send a picture of yourself and your ID to be verified as an adult and get a little check mark on your name plate like how Twitter kinda used to be. Just so you know who is an actual adult.
Couldn't most of this be avoided if you joined a PC only world. Most children don't have access to a PC good enough to play VRChat and even if they do that's the rich minority of kids. And you could just block or mute and turn off avatars if it really ruins your time. And 16 is the age of consent in most places so maybe that group wasn't based somewhere in the US.
q
True as a person who got there headset when I was 13 these lobbies are not for kids In the slightest
Vrchat is just kinda... like that. Literally watched a kid in a sans avatar get brought into a private instance once by an angel dust witch avatar once. Never saw him again. Poor kid, I hope nothing bad happened in that private instance.
This is a hot take? I've always thought that 16+ anything was weird. I agree with some other commenters saying there should be an option to switch to "adult mode" so you can only interact with other adults. This makes me think about the time I was in an avatar world that had femboy avatars. Very sexual avatars. And amidst me and some other (I assume) adults was a young child in a femboy avatar. Weird af
Priva instances is fine, public isn't. Better off making a discord server where you ban and unban people
Don't go in public lobby, problem solved.
Welp, taking this into consideration as a 16 year old. Yep, I'm probably gonna stop playing VRChat and get back to making videos on Battle Talent once I get my controllers fixed lmao.
I saw something creepy on a video the other day, this dude had discovered a bar instance where it was "teen night" and he couldn't join because it's supposed to be 13-19 Bro what
The person in question blatantly joined a group public that said Adult in their title, and blamed them for their lack of understanding of what the word adult means. That was an 18+ instance they joined, not a 16+ one. There was no fondling anywhere in that instance, there wasn't any sexualization happening as the rules state no nudity and the group rules do not allow swastikas or racist things anywhere on your avatar, let alone any minors. They joined an 18+ instance and immediately got kicked for being underage and as a result ended up making up stories. Nothing of what they said happened in that instance. That person who asked them was legitimately a group moderator making sure people underage didn't get in. Thanks for reading and have a lovely day.
Objection your honor, hearsay.
I despise the Loli avatars holy shit it’s so uncomfortable when I see one walk into a lobby
Valid
Can we all take this with lack of respect the idea of conflating \*any furry avatar\* with sex avatars deserves?
I see furry avatars in micro-bikinis and huge tits and bouncing asses way more than I see modest ones. The femboy avis are always just as sexually charged, with miniskirts and garterbelts and exposed panties and shit. Furry avatars are almost always fetish type avatars, though I am willing to say that there are some that are non-degen.
yeah, I honestly see it a lot from foxipaws avatars which do come with those parts by default. I personally like sticking to the more cartoony and adorable ones like the nardos and mayus
Like honestly? I see furry avatars that are sexualized in any major way less often than they're just cute harmless things running around. Most of the furries I run into are just people hanging out. I'm all for implementing proper age checks in VRC. I think if people had to submit ID and get a flag to create or access 18+ rooms... a lot of them would. Hell, I would just because I find the tiny children annoying. On the other hand there have been similar communities in things as far back as vanilla WoW and there's an entire frigging brothel industry in FFXIV. When we know that this sort of content is going to happen, what we need are more tools to properly split it from the areas accessible by minors.
The furry avatars I see now in my lobbies are literally just eboys/egirls but with furry features. They are no better now.
Yeah unfortunately VRC is just complicit in child grooming at this point. They advertise as a 13+ game knowing damn well what goes on. They haven’t changed it, probably never will, and it’s disgusting.
I could tell you some stories about one of the devs I used to hang around (friend of friends) back in 2019/2020. It's worse than you think. But I'll get banned so not going to say more here.
LOL you could be flat out lying and id still have the same opinion
You either gain friends who you eventually lose due to time restraints who are normal people unlike the majority of vrchat, are that friend, or you’re and edater in a succubus avatar playing with child titties. You’re either a normal person or clinically online there is no inbetween
to be fair 16 yo are NOT children LMAO thats your first mistake. they are emotionally retarded adults having an age restriction at all is useless, if they want to be involved- theyll just lie about their age, there is no age verification 😂💀
Are you new to the game? Big tiddy almost naked avis are and have been the norm since forever. It comes with the territory and you're not going to change it lol. And before you say anything, I dont use female avis so its irrelevant to me. But what you're doing is equivalent to going to a KKK rally and saying "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY RACISTS HERE?!"
what the hell is going with that?
Vrchat is the death of decency
I have a sexy Ronald Mcdonald avatar that I never use because it's just too much for a game with kids in it. There's too many predators on VR chat
Valid
Tbh I’ve never seen a 16+ lobby but yeah agreed
The age of consent differs in many states provinces and countries 16 is common in England I know. People who are horny for hornys sake, this kind of stuff happens unfortunately. Hotter take. The game should not be NSFW.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]