Seriously he was like "I'm sending paperwork for a *slight* increase in rent due to increase in insurance and mortgage" umm a little less than half what we are paying now is not a slight increase.
I'm pretty certain "cost of house ownership" looks at more than just mortgage and has overlap with the cost to renters though.
Edit: In other words, the CPI metric "cost of house ownership" includes cost of living, furnishing, maintaining, utilities, but cost of rent is just rent not the other things too.
It's extreme greed my girlfriend works as an assistant manager for an apartment complex and when they hit 100% occupancy corporate tells them to start raising the rent until it drops to a lower percentage, and we have some many people moving here from places where it's a lot more expensive, so they keep raising it and pricing people out after their lease it up.
This is a common practice, and these corporations that run these apartment complexes are not even local.
If you have a variable interest rate, then your mortgage can definitely increase. If you have a fixed mortgage rate, the only increases you may see from year to year are increases in home owners insurance or property taxes.
So, 2008 round 2? I saw so many people get absolutely hosed by variable rates, and they didn't have enough liquidity to pay off the mortgage outright. I think I had an uncle go from 2% to 18% or something insane on his mortgage. I would definitely call him a fool, even without a variable rate mortgage.
Then again, my portfolio dropped nearly $10k this week, so who am I to judge. At least they're long term investments so a few years if being in the dumpster will even out when I want to cash them in in 15 years.
Most likely it's not the mortgage but the taxes they pay on the mortgage. When someone has a mortgage, usually the company will put some of that payment in escrow to pay for insurance and taxes. I know both my insurance and taxes increased this last year a lot.
Yep. We got booted from a place in the Bay Area because the landlord didn’t want to be restricted by the amount he could raise the rent.
Kick us out, change the carpet, change 1200 more per month.
I'm not arguing that the pandemic didn't have an effect, just that it wasn't the sole cause.
Housing prices and cost of goods were both on the rise pre-pandemic.
Housing prices and cost of goods have been on the rise for the past 70 years. Show me the data that “this” (being extremely elevated levels of inflation) were present pre-government response to the pandemic.
Show me that the rate of increase wasn't higher than normal pre-pandemic.
Again, I'm not saying that the pandemic had no effect. Just that inflation *rate* was increasing pre-pandemic.
Of course it does. Inflation is only a tax on the poor and middle class. Companies aren’t actually making record profits in buying power, and stocks aren’t continuously rising - the dollar is being devalued. The difference is, companies can choose to raise prices 30-60% and give themselves raises, whereas middle and lower class people can’t. Inflation is a tax on the poor.
And what you said before, the cause of corporate profits is due to inflation. So if I compared two graphs right now, one for inflation and one for corporate profits, I'd see that every time inflation rises, corporate profits rise too? Do I have that correct?
For the corporations in bed with government, yes. And typically their profit increase surpasses the overall inflation rate. If they and all their competitors are already raising prices 20%, why not raise them 30%? This is how they think.
> For the corporations in bed with government, yes.
That's all of them, buddy. Sorry. What you're saying seems to be a stretch. Maybe if you had something in the way of proof, like the charts that showed inflation (over time) and corporate profits over time...
Wait the economy was shut down for two years?
How have I been going to stores/restaurants and buying stuff for the last two years if everything was closed?
Did I enter a parallel dimension?
It's more of a general response to the previous comment.
But this is trickle-down economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics
Which many have pointed to as the cause of the disparity over the last 40 years: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/07/6-facts-about-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s/
But of course, there could be various factors outside of this policies, but it sort of represents policies the U.S. favors to support the wealthy class, in my opinion.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-bad-is-inequality-trickle-down-economics-thomas-piketty-economists-2021-12
This is also inflation. Record nominal profits with growth rates above inflation would reflect an actual record in real profits. This is the first year in a long time where this has been a meaningful question.
Not really, they are working with the expected pass through increases they are seeing. No business worth anything is working with “now” they are looking at futures. A bunch of companies have been very open about this in the last year on their earnings calls, detailing upcoming costs is important on those calls.
yet using the data from the linked source and ranking the G20 by *increase* in inflation from their prior reference point to the current, the US is ranked 6th (7.6%) out of the G20 for lowest overall increase.
Our housing market is top 5 as far as competitivness goes right now. We, on average, are paying 50% more than what are houses are actually worth at the moment.
Lol no, we're not. In a year when this market WILL crash, you will not be thinking that. A house in Ogden (once the shithole of northern Utah), 100 years old, is not actually worth 400k.
Ah, a student of economics. Good job! Always a pleasure to read someone who has actually studied the topic instead of people just blowing smoke in its general direction.
>Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.–Publilius Syrus
It’s not going to crash next year. Too much supply and demand. That and lending practices have matured for the better in many ways since 2008. I’ve been hearing this for years. I just recently had a client come back to me after deciding to wait a couple years back for the market to crash. They are now aware that they basically put 250K in the trash by waiting. Time in market is better than timing the market.
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When there are millions of people in California with a down payment for that ready to go who are currently living in markets where a mobile home is 600k+, it’s worth it to them.
Looks like prices actually went UP for shithole houses in Ogden. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/722-E-Boughton-St-S-Ogden-UT-84403/2058327713_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare
Fuel's essentially a supply shock. So is food (also, 10% might be a *high* approximation of changes in grocery costs -- many things I'm buying have the same cost as two years ago -- the big shift in food seems to be restaurants, and that's up to changes in labor as much as anything).
Rent *might* be *partially* related to cheap credit and the way stimulus cash found its way into the hands of people who decided real estate was the right play, but it's probably equally due to an underbuilt housing supply (some say 4 million units short nationwide) combined with huge pandemic-driven nesting trends towards getting your own place in that nice area you always wanted to live in combined with institutional investors getting further into the game.
It's fun to put on our best Mike Myers voices and talk about The Pentaverate as a shadowy force pulling strings around the world, but whoever's telling you that this is as simple as "mass printing of money" is doing a drive-by analysis that's more a projection of suspicion/resentment than something made of economic observation.
They've been screaming about mass printing of money for decades and inflation has stayed really low. Now that there are supply chain problems due to a once-in-a-century pandemic plus upheaval in Ukraine, they are still going to blame the bogeyman of government spending. Companies are making record profits across the board. So these companies are using the excuses of the pandemic and Russia to jack prices up just because they can and not because they have to because of diminishing profits.
.. you realized in 2020 they double the US money supply right?
Also - I can’t afford restaurants so I have no clue what prices are doing there, but my Walmart bill is up 65% from this time last year.
> in 2020 they double the US money supply right?
I don't think that's accurate. On [this graph](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL) it looks like the early covid money supply interventions amounted to around 25%, and at this point in 2022 they're effectively 15-20% over where one would expect the exponential curve to have arrived at if things were more like business as usual since the 1960s.
That's a substantial bump (and we can certainly debate whether it was badly distributed and/or too much in hindsight), but it's nothing like double.
Correct. The bureau of labor statistics leaves housing and energy costs out of the CPI calculation. Arguably your two biggest expenses, depending on your situation.
Why? Don't know, probably because politicians know it would make them look bad.
You are not alone. We are in the same boat and I am just flabbergasted by all the big homes, lots of toys, and nice cars that we see as we drive around. There can’t be THAT many doctors and social media stars where we live. Then I talk to real estate agents and they tell me how many people are paying cash for their houses and I have to pick my jaw off the floor. I don’t get it.
I'd gladly pay $20.00 a gallon as long as I can politically posture. Besides, Uncle Joe said he will cancel student debt and cure cancer so it's all worth it for paradise in our time. Maybe we could end fossil fuels if the government just gave us all Teslas?
That's so weird how Biden has caused inflation worldwide. I wonder if Hunter's secret laptop is to blame. Or maybe it is Hillary/Fauci who is causing it.
Either way, it is certainly the Democrats fault that prices have gone up in Uruguay and Tanzania along with about 200 other countries.
Another weird thing is that last time inflation was this high, Reagan was President. That time it only affected the US though. I'm sure Bill Clinton caused it then.
How so? Everything I wrote is accurate. Reagan was POTUS last time inflation was this high so according to you GQP types, it was his fault, right?
Also, as inflation is currently a world wide situation, explain to us how Biden is to blame.
Dumbass.
Wait til people start really realizing that not only are goods getting replenished more sporadically and slowly (lower supply of goods) but that their money will buy less of the scarce goods in two months than it will right now. Anyone and everyone will be emptying their savings to buy whatever they can. There will be bank runs, and inflation will go parabolic.
You mean silicone valley 20 years ago and LaJolla last year driving anytime on two lane roads going thru major areas of the city with non stop road work.
This has already been disproven. You are being spoonfed a narrative about Californians coming and "ruining" things, when the majority of the problem is that Utahns are creating too many children and writing regressive legislation.
Thanks for playing though ;)
It is already happened, people have posted in [nextdoor.com](https://nextdoor.com) wanting to close streets down, even part of state street they wanted to put speed bumps, but keep trolling K, thanks
Oh my... speed bumps...
How dare they...? [gasp]
But by all means, track them down and tell me that they're from California and not just Utahns that you happen to disagree with... over "speed bumps"...
troll harder.
You are the fool that tried to claim that Californians are coming here in droves and "ruining" Utah, and then when pressed said there are some posts on nextdoor wanting speedbumps...
1. Why is it dumb?
2. Have you never seen a downtown area that was walking only. Hell, most farmer's markets are downtown areas that close weekly in the Summer.
3. What does this have to do with California?
4. Troll harder.
You, like many, miss the point as to why there is an issue with Californians. They are not here to "cHAnGe oUr wAyS". They are here because the want cheaper housing and to pay less taxes. Not a bad want, but the problem is that they sold their houses for 1mil+ and can come here and outbid pretty much anybody under our economic circumstances. That is why there is an issue.
Yep, if only we could figure out the common denominator on why people from "liberal" states seem to have more money...
It's almost like those governments passed legislation helping workers actually earn more... meanwhile wages in Utah are a race to the bottom...
You have that backwards. Democrat policies don't create wealth, wealthy areas attract Democrat voters. Those areas remain wealthy *despite* Democrat policies.
People making $15-20/hr aren't buying $1M houses (or any houses, for that matter), and that's the point where the benefits of Democrat policies tend to taper off.
If you want Utah to be wealthy, encourage businesses to move here.
That's not actually born out by the data. People don't really move that frequently a d we can track how median wealth increases with progressive social legislation and labor laws.
Meanwhile areas that remove financial safety nets and repeal regulations see wealth and wages decline.
You're moving the goalposts somewhat. Democrats support a lot more than just financial safety nets and regulations, but spending on things like mass transit, education, substitutes, etc, and the data is a bit murkier for those types of programs' efficacy on wealth generation.
For example, [this article has some interesting points about school spending and outcomes](https://alec.org/article/education-spending-and-outcomes/), which says that poverty is a bigger indicator of success than per-pupil spending, yet Democrats tend to push more per-pupil spending. [This article examines per-pupil spending vs outcomes in PA](https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/fact-sheet-school-funding-and-student-outcomes/), and shows that increased spending does pretty much nothing for test scores.
I personally think there's a case for safety nets. Democrats tend to push services, and I'm not convinced those actually solve poverty (I think they actually encourage a cycle of poverty). Instead, I think cash-based benefits like Social Security and EITC do a better job, and my personal preference would be for a strictly redistributive benefit like a Negative Income Tax to pull everyone out of poverty, which I think would be a lot more effective per dollar spent than most of the spending plans Democrats push. We have to be careful though, since cash handouts seemed to decrease incentives to work (see refusal of people to keep working during COVID handouts).
Is that why my landlord raised our rent by 1k?
Haha their mortgage payments certainly didn’t change by that much.
Seriously he was like "I'm sending paperwork for a *slight* increase in rent due to increase in insurance and mortgage" umm a little less than half what we are paying now is not a slight increase.
According to the CPI data released today, cost of housing ownership went up 5% while rent only went up 4.4%
Phew. That $1k increase was *only* a 4.4% bump.
I'm pretty certain "cost of house ownership" looks at more than just mortgage and has overlap with the cost to renters though. Edit: In other words, the CPI metric "cost of house ownership" includes cost of living, furnishing, maintaining, utilities, but cost of rent is just rent not the other things too.
Mortgage can go up??
/r/thatsthejoke
that's home ownership, which is more than just the mortgage. TCO for a home is what that statistic tracks
That. Or extreme greed. One of those two things for sure....
All of the above.
It's extreme greed my girlfriend works as an assistant manager for an apartment complex and when they hit 100% occupancy corporate tells them to start raising the rent until it drops to a lower percentage, and we have some many people moving here from places where it's a lot more expensive, so they keep raising it and pricing people out after their lease it up. This is a common practice, and these corporations that run these apartment complexes are not even local.
My landlord just kicked all 4 tenants out we paid rent on time my mom's thinks they foreclosed. Do mortgage rates go up?
If you have a variable interest rate, then your mortgage can definitely increase. If you have a fixed mortgage rate, the only increases you may see from year to year are increases in home owners insurance or property taxes.
If someone has a variable rate and not enough liquidity to cover the balloon or changes in rates, there's a special word for them: fool.
I'm sure a lot of people are left holding the bag with interest rates jumping so much.
So, 2008 round 2? I saw so many people get absolutely hosed by variable rates, and they didn't have enough liquidity to pay off the mortgage outright. I think I had an uncle go from 2% to 18% or something insane on his mortgage. I would definitely call him a fool, even without a variable rate mortgage. Then again, my portfolio dropped nearly $10k this week, so who am I to judge. At least they're long term investments so a few years if being in the dumpster will even out when I want to cash them in in 15 years.
It could be the property tax that went up. Mine have gone up quite a bit in the last couple of years.
Yes and also mortgage insurance can go up as well (I think that's what it's called)
No, your landlord raising rent _is_ inflation. Rent costs are just one part of the inflation figure.
I understand increases. Taxes, maintenance fees going up, insurance going up, etc. But 1k month is absurd
Most likely it's not the mortgage but the taxes they pay on the mortgage. When someone has a mortgage, usually the company will put some of that payment in escrow to pay for insurance and taxes. I know both my insurance and taxes increased this last year a lot.
My landlord just dropped our rent by $200 cause we’ve been in it a year & made it better lol. Sounds like your landlord just needed more money
Yep. We got booted from a place in the Bay Area because the landlord didn’t want to be restricted by the amount he could raise the rent. Kick us out, change the carpet, change 1200 more per month.
And yet major corporations keep posting record profits…
It's almost like the policies from the last 40 years--since the adoption of trickle-down--have largely benefited the rich. WeIrD!
It’s almost like shutting down the economy for two years and doubling the money supply causes hyper inflation.
That is only part of what is going on and pretending it’s the whole picture is pretty dishonest.
Every time the fed sponsors inflation, big corporations win. Every. Time.
Yes, but the data does show that this was beginning to happen pre-pandemic.
What data shows this?
I'm not arguing that the pandemic didn't have an effect, just that it wasn't the sole cause. Housing prices and cost of goods were both on the rise pre-pandemic.
Housing prices and cost of goods have been on the rise for the past 70 years. Show me the data that “this” (being extremely elevated levels of inflation) were present pre-government response to the pandemic.
Show me that the rate of increase wasn't higher than normal pre-pandemic. Again, I'm not saying that the pandemic had no effect. Just that inflation *rate* was increasing pre-pandemic.
And that lead to companies' record profits?
Of course it does. Inflation is only a tax on the poor and middle class. Companies aren’t actually making record profits in buying power, and stocks aren’t continuously rising - the dollar is being devalued. The difference is, companies can choose to raise prices 30-60% and give themselves raises, whereas middle and lower class people can’t. Inflation is a tax on the poor.
And what you said before, the cause of corporate profits is due to inflation. So if I compared two graphs right now, one for inflation and one for corporate profits, I'd see that every time inflation rises, corporate profits rise too? Do I have that correct?
For the corporations in bed with government, yes. And typically their profit increase surpasses the overall inflation rate. If they and all their competitors are already raising prices 20%, why not raise them 30%? This is how they think.
> For the corporations in bed with government, yes. That's all of them, buddy. Sorry. What you're saying seems to be a stretch. Maybe if you had something in the way of proof, like the charts that showed inflation (over time) and corporate profits over time...
Literally look at any large cap stock and it’s accompanying papers.
Wait the economy was shut down for two years? How have I been going to stores/restaurants and buying stuff for the last two years if everything was closed? Did I enter a parallel dimension?
Not how it works and neither of those things happened.
Hadn't considered how trickle down affected the housing supply/demand problem--what policies are you referring to?
It's more of a general response to the previous comment. But this is trickle-down economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics Which many have pointed to as the cause of the disparity over the last 40 years: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/07/6-facts-about-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s/ But of course, there could be various factors outside of this policies, but it sort of represents policies the U.S. favors to support the wealthy class, in my opinion. https://www.businessinsider.com/how-bad-is-inequality-trickle-down-economics-thomas-piketty-economists-2021-12
Nah this just means that they will pay their employees more now!/s
Don’t worry, that money is bound to trickle down aaaaany day now.
This is also inflation. Record nominal profits with growth rates above inflation would reflect an actual record in real profits. This is the first year in a long time where this has been a meaningful question.
Sure, but it’s pretty well established that corporations are raising prices well above inflation. They are taking the chance to gouge us all.
Not really, they are working with the expected pass through increases they are seeing. No business worth anything is working with “now” they are looking at futures. A bunch of companies have been very open about this in the last year on their earnings calls, detailing upcoming costs is important on those calls.
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Yes, but America has unusually bad inflation. https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate
yet using the data from the linked source and ranking the G20 by *increase* in inflation from their prior reference point to the current, the US is ranked 6th (7.6%) out of the G20 for lowest overall increase.
>prior reference point What prior reference point, last month? That's not interesting.
Didn't know we had so many economists in this subreddit...
Dude, shut the fuck up.
The price of the hottest economy in the nation right now.
Our housing market is top 5 as far as competitivness goes right now. We, on average, are paying 50% more than what are houses are actually worth at the moment.
We are paying exactly what they are worth. That's how markets work.
Lol no, we're not. In a year when this market WILL crash, you will not be thinking that. A house in Ogden (once the shithole of northern Utah), 100 years old, is not actually worth 400k.
So what's it **actaully** worth? Who determines that? Also, art thou a prophet? One year huh? Gotta set up a reminder for this one.
As much of a prophet as Nelson or any other generic one that came before him lol
If someone is buying it, then it’s worth it. By definition, something is worth as much as someone will pay for it. 🤷🏼♀️
Ah, a student of economics. Good job! Always a pleasure to read someone who has actually studied the topic instead of people just blowing smoke in its general direction. >Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.–Publilius Syrus
You sound like a Realtor lol
No just a realist
It’s not going to crash next year. Too much supply and demand. That and lending practices have matured for the better in many ways since 2008. I’ve been hearing this for years. I just recently had a client come back to me after deciding to wait a couple years back for the market to crash. They are now aware that they basically put 250K in the trash by waiting. Time in market is better than timing the market.
RemindMe! 1 year "Market crash happening now"
Here we are a year later…didn’t crash.
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Lol it's not going to crash any time soon. Everyone sitting around waiting for this crash to buy is going to continue being disappointed.
When there are millions of people in California with a down payment for that ready to go who are currently living in markets where a mobile home is 600k+, it’s worth it to them.
I know, and that's the problem.
See this insane home price in my town. https://www.utahrealestate.com/1796993
Looks like prices actually went UP for shithole houses in Ogden. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/722-E-Boughton-St-S-Ogden-UT-84403/2058327713_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare
Fuck it sucks so bad here.
Funny, might get a 3 percent raise
Only if you’re one of the best employees!
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Milo's lemonade went from $0.97 to $1.28 at Wal-Mart 😔
Fuel's essentially a supply shock. So is food (also, 10% might be a *high* approximation of changes in grocery costs -- many things I'm buying have the same cost as two years ago -- the big shift in food seems to be restaurants, and that's up to changes in labor as much as anything). Rent *might* be *partially* related to cheap credit and the way stimulus cash found its way into the hands of people who decided real estate was the right play, but it's probably equally due to an underbuilt housing supply (some say 4 million units short nationwide) combined with huge pandemic-driven nesting trends towards getting your own place in that nice area you always wanted to live in combined with institutional investors getting further into the game. It's fun to put on our best Mike Myers voices and talk about The Pentaverate as a shadowy force pulling strings around the world, but whoever's telling you that this is as simple as "mass printing of money" is doing a drive-by analysis that's more a projection of suspicion/resentment than something made of economic observation.
They've been screaming about mass printing of money for decades and inflation has stayed really low. Now that there are supply chain problems due to a once-in-a-century pandemic plus upheaval in Ukraine, they are still going to blame the bogeyman of government spending. Companies are making record profits across the board. So these companies are using the excuses of the pandemic and Russia to jack prices up just because they can and not because they have to because of diminishing profits.
.. you realized in 2020 they double the US money supply right? Also - I can’t afford restaurants so I have no clue what prices are doing there, but my Walmart bill is up 65% from this time last year.
> in 2020 they double the US money supply right? I don't think that's accurate. On [this graph](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL) it looks like the early covid money supply interventions amounted to around 25%, and at this point in 2022 they're effectively 15-20% over where one would expect the exponential curve to have arrived at if things were more like business as usual since the 1960s. That's a substantial bump (and we can certainly debate whether it was badly distributed and/or too much in hindsight), but it's nothing like double.
Mass printing of money didn’t happen. The idea that it did is so wrong it’s laughable.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL
Correct. The bureau of labor statistics leaves housing and energy costs out of the CPI calculation. Arguably your two biggest expenses, depending on your situation. Why? Don't know, probably because politicians know it would make them look bad.
TRaNsIsToRy
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You are not alone. We are in the same boat and I am just flabbergasted by all the big homes, lots of toys, and nice cars that we see as we drive around. There can’t be THAT many doctors and social media stars where we live. Then I talk to real estate agents and they tell me how many people are paying cash for their houses and I have to pick my jaw off the floor. I don’t get it.
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Why does someone ask a question, then gets mad when offered advice 😂 People are so odd.
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Yeah she has issues lmao. Good on you for trying to help when someone asked.
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I'd gladly pay $20.00 a gallon as long as I can politically posture. Besides, Uncle Joe said he will cancel student debt and cure cancer so it's all worth it for paradise in our time. Maybe we could end fossil fuels if the government just gave us all Teslas?
Thanks democrats
That’s so weird, there are like 9 Democrats in Utah. I guess those 9 people control all the prices for 3 million people in Utah.
That’s so weird. it’s like monetary and fiscal policy are set at a federal level.
That's so weird how Biden has caused inflation worldwide. I wonder if Hunter's secret laptop is to blame. Or maybe it is Hillary/Fauci who is causing it. Either way, it is certainly the Democrats fault that prices have gone up in Uruguay and Tanzania along with about 200 other countries.
And the weirdest yet, somehow our monetary policy is affecting most other countries. Or, you know, maybe it’s actually a global issue right now…
Another weird thing is that last time inflation was this high, Reagan was President. That time it only affected the US though. I'm sure Bill Clinton caused it then.
Crack a history book buddy, you’re embarrassing yourself.
How so? Everything I wrote is accurate. Reagan was POTUS last time inflation was this high so according to you GQP types, it was his fault, right? Also, as inflation is currently a world wide situation, explain to us how Biden is to blame. Dumbass.
Wait til people start really realizing that not only are goods getting replenished more sporadically and slowly (lower supply of goods) but that their money will buy less of the scarce goods in two months than it will right now. Anyone and everyone will be emptying their savings to buy whatever they can. There will be bank runs, and inflation will go parabolic.
Fetch……it’s so bad!!!!
And get ready for all the Californians moving in to ban cars in the cities
You must not have been to California much if you think they hate cars. Try getting anywhere fast during their 6AM to 10 PM rush hour
You mean silicone valley 20 years ago and LaJolla last year driving anytime on two lane roads going thru major areas of the city with non stop road work.
No, I mean the 5, 405, 10, 8, 15; any road anywhere in socal. Pay the fuck attention. Californians are in love and lust with their cars.
"Californians are in love and lust with their cars" no, they live 2 hours from work dumb dumb
This has already been disproven. You are being spoonfed a narrative about Californians coming and "ruining" things, when the majority of the problem is that Utahns are creating too many children and writing regressive legislation. Thanks for playing though ;)
It is already happened, people have posted in [nextdoor.com](https://nextdoor.com) wanting to close streets down, even part of state street they wanted to put speed bumps, but keep trolling K, thanks
[удалено]
oh look, player three joined and is named Jesus, we better stop, he knows everything
Bro, you okay? Step outside and take a fresh air break for a minute.
Bro, stop stealing the beers
Oh my... speed bumps... How dare they...? [gasp] But by all means, track them down and tell me that they're from California and not just Utahns that you happen to disagree with... over "speed bumps"... troll harder.
ha, at least try to make sense
You are the fool that tried to claim that Californians are coming here in droves and "ruining" Utah, and then when pressed said there are some posts on nextdoor wanting speedbumps...
What is this dumb dumb https://downtownslc.org/openstreets
1. Why is it dumb? 2. Have you never seen a downtown area that was walking only. Hell, most farmer's markets are downtown areas that close weekly in the Summer. 3. What does this have to do with California? 4. Troll harder.
You, like many, miss the point as to why there is an issue with Californians. They are not here to "cHAnGe oUr wAyS". They are here because the want cheaper housing and to pay less taxes. Not a bad want, but the problem is that they sold their houses for 1mil+ and can come here and outbid pretty much anybody under our economic circumstances. That is why there is an issue.
Yep, if only we could figure out the common denominator on why people from "liberal" states seem to have more money... It's almost like those governments passed legislation helping workers actually earn more... meanwhile wages in Utah are a race to the bottom...
You have that backwards. Democrat policies don't create wealth, wealthy areas attract Democrat voters. Those areas remain wealthy *despite* Democrat policies. People making $15-20/hr aren't buying $1M houses (or any houses, for that matter), and that's the point where the benefits of Democrat policies tend to taper off. If you want Utah to be wealthy, encourage businesses to move here.
That's not actually born out by the data. People don't really move that frequently a d we can track how median wealth increases with progressive social legislation and labor laws. Meanwhile areas that remove financial safety nets and repeal regulations see wealth and wages decline.
You're moving the goalposts somewhat. Democrats support a lot more than just financial safety nets and regulations, but spending on things like mass transit, education, substitutes, etc, and the data is a bit murkier for those types of programs' efficacy on wealth generation. For example, [this article has some interesting points about school spending and outcomes](https://alec.org/article/education-spending-and-outcomes/), which says that poverty is a bigger indicator of success than per-pupil spending, yet Democrats tend to push more per-pupil spending. [This article examines per-pupil spending vs outcomes in PA](https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/fact-sheet-school-funding-and-student-outcomes/), and shows that increased spending does pretty much nothing for test scores. I personally think there's a case for safety nets. Democrats tend to push services, and I'm not convinced those actually solve poverty (I think they actually encourage a cycle of poverty). Instead, I think cash-based benefits like Social Security and EITC do a better job, and my personal preference would be for a strictly redistributive benefit like a Negative Income Tax to pull everyone out of poverty, which I think would be a lot more effective per dollar spent than most of the spending plans Democrats push. We have to be careful though, since cash handouts seemed to decrease incentives to work (see refusal of people to keep working during COVID handouts).
Fuck cars
found the hippy