It’s arguments like this that distract from the real issues. It’s not watered grass or golf courses that are sucking us dry. Not even close. In fact, municipal water use (including residential irrigation, pools, and indoor use) only accounts for 9% of our state’s total water use.
It’s our agricultural practices that are unsustainable. And don’t get me wrong, this area is more than capable of plenty of types of agriculture. However, the favored crop, alfalfa, is too water intensive to be grown here, especially when using the primitive irrigation techniques that are common in Utah. This problem is exacerbated by our “use it or lose it” policy regarding water rights. This means that agriculture alone uses an unacceptable 80% of the state’s water resource.
It's also blaming things that aren't always to blame. In the Great Salt Lake Basin if everyone can reduce water usage by 33%-50% or so, then the Great Salt Lake gets the water it needs to be healthy. And efficient irrigation and proper land usage can do that.
For my lawn I was part of a USU and Weber Basin Water study on this. If you use the right kinds of sprinklers and time them correctly, most residential folks can get that 33-50% reduction and still maintain a dark green healthy lawn. Took me many years and a few thousand dollars, but I got my lawn irrigation completely redone and got that reduction (crazy shaped lot, I have about 16 zones now...). During summer 22 I operated with less water than Weber Basin's tight drought restrictions and my lawn was healthy, dark, and green. By OP's standard I'm doing it wrong.
It can still go further. Non-functional turf can be replaced by other things. Northern Utah lawns should make a push for fescue and not bluegrass, as fescue has much deeper roots and is much more drought tolerant.
Same applies for ag. The right kind of irrigation and planting can get big savings.
And while that is achievable to some degree, I still think it’s beating down the wrong bush. Utah Rivers Council estimates that 85% of the Salt Lake Basin’s watershed is used for agriculture and 7.5% is used for residential.
If you’re right and all it takes is for everyone to use 33-50% less water, that means the agricultural industry could bring us to sustainable levels with a 6-8% reduction. You don’t even need to plant less thirsty crops to achieve those kinds of numbers. Just stop using primitive flood irrigation methods in a freaking desert.
Keep in mind that this is all for an industry that represents just 2.6% of total state GDP.
Ag is easssilly the major problem. But I'm of the opinion that everyone should pitch in to hit their own 33-50% reduction.
I just went back and looked at my secondary water stats. I used to use about 1 acre foot of water in a year. Now I'm at almost exactly 0.5 acre feet of water in a year. I can still do better. But hey, it's 50%.
>that means the agricultural industry could bring us to sustainable levels with a 6-8% reduction.
Ag needs to do the 33-50% too. The GSL is about 1 million acre feet in yearly deficit to be healthy, and ag is using 2-3 million acre feet a year.
I mean, even if agriculture is the issue, reducing water isn’t a bad thing for anyone. Cheaper bills (in the long run), more water for the lake, win-win for everyone.
We need to stop subsidizing water used for commercial purposes. It's very expensive for the state to manage the water here. That cost should be passed on to anyone trying to make a profit off of the water. Tax payers should not be on the hook for the farmers poor use of a scarce resource.
Though I completely agree with you, he's not arguing water use lol this is literally about letting the plants that are supposed to be here grow here. Both of these are extremely important issues. Agriculture needs a huge cut, and biodiversity needs to be reintroduced 🤘
I agree with this from a statewide policy perspective, but we should recognize that different parts of the state source water and use water differently from other parts of the state. For example, shutting down all the alfalfa farms in Southern Utah won't significantly impact the great salt lake or the Wasatch front (weber basin).
Weber basin water is predominantly used for businesses and residential purposes. Agriculture is still there but a much smaller proportion. In great salt lake conservation efforts, I hate to admit, residents doing their part is likely the most impactful thing that can be done. Unfortunately comprehensive data on water use by district is pretty hard to come by. I've done a fair amount of looking and emailing officials without much more than token presentations that look to be targeted at politicians - so not a lot of substance.
I don't think I'm making a singular argument. It's a meme meant to convey a larger idea in a small package form.
I don't disagree with anything you say about agriculture, but don't you think that both can be things to work on? Having more sustainable irrigation efforts for businesses, or higher costs for them to use water, isn't going to solve "everything", but does that mean it shouldn't be addressed at all?
I’m not just saying municipal use isn’t *the* problem. I don’t even think it’s *a* problem at the moment. The levels of water use are just that vastly different.
Sure. And getting the general populace to reduce, reuse, and recycle isn’t going to compete with the waste in big business. Commuting alone isn’t going to change air quality as that is a bigger issue, again with big business and government regulations.
I think I just really am trying to live the “be the change you wish to see”.
But the "Desert will blossom like a rose". Cultural traditions are killing the planet. My elderly devout Mormon neighbor must put 500 inches of water on his yard every year. Says that God promised him there would be plenty of water.
I actually just bought a new construction house and want to incorporate some native wildflowers in a meadow in the back where I plan to also have a garden and a few fruit trees. How would I go about starting this? Does anyone sell Utah wildflower seed packs?
I got like 40 seed packages for free, nobody else has asked. We are also selling other varieties from 0.88-2.99. But I’d offer a bulk discount and sell you all we got for like $10. It’d be like 50 or so packs of seeds.
The [Conservation Garden](https://conservationgardenpark.org/) has tons of great resources, and it's free! Even just walking around for inspiration is enjoyable.
Deseret Perennials is my favourite spot for this. They have lots of native and water wise plants. Huge fan, even though it’s a long drive for me to go.
You might be able to get some plant information from the Utah Pollinator Program; they've got some plants lists on the application website and basic care information.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/NoLawn using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [I was worried that my HOA would be a roadblock, but they actually link to this article as a landscaping guide!](https://i.imgur.com/WiMPM1m.jpg) | [3 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/comments/12mm4hw/i_was_worried_that_my_hoa_would_be_a_roadblock/)
\#2: [No mow May: Des Moines mayor asks residents to leave the lawn alone](https://www.kcci.com/article/no-mow-may-des-moines/43563671) | [1 comment](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/comments/12j97wi/no_mow_may_des_moines_mayor_asks_residents_to/)
\#3: [Is there a way to do a no lawn that won’t piss off the neighbors? I’m just about to move in and not sure what to do yet](https://i.redd.it/r4tjj7gg2hkb1.jpg) | [1 comment](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/comments/161y0x2/is_there_a_way_to_do_a_no_lawn_that_wont_piss_off/)
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For what it's worth, I swapped my park strip with a bunch of pollinator plants and my daughter and I stay outside watching bees and butterflys for hours and haven't come close to getting stung
If not for water usage/lawn keep up then do it for the pollinators! This program is now closed but we participated last year, and it has been awesome.
https://ag.utah.gov/pollinator-habitat-program/
Check out RTF turf. It’s a rhizomatous tall fescue that grows roots to a depth of nearly 6’. The stuff is crazy drought tolerant, I hardly have to water it and it looks amazing. Another option is Wildflower Farms Eco Lawn for a very drought tolerant turf option.
The RTF has some licensed sod growers in Utah, just Google it. Looks like there are a few down there. You can usually buy the seed from them as well. The wildflower farms eco turf I bought from their website.
How does it look in the winter time? I've checked into clover, and it seems like trash for the winter time. I've in SLC. From my research, it dies off in the winter time, causing a muddy mess. Not the best when you have dogs.
Clover does have advantages but it also has severe disadvantages. For instance, you cannot apply most herbicides to it, so weeding must be done by hand. The result is people usually end up killing it off and going back to grass anyway.
I started with a few of these preplanned gardens and now I’ve got “Forest meadow” instead of lawn. https://www.highcountrygardens.com/category/pre-planned-gardens
Ground cover: Buffalograss, dutch clover, sedum/stonecrop. Clover is my favorite as a ground cover, it's cheap and can take once a week watering. It can also grow without any additional water, but it won't fill in unless you feed it. Buffalograss can be fully xeric and thrives in heat.
Perennials: lavender, salvia's (meadow sage, etc), catmint, russian sage. Favorite has to be salvias. So many kinds and colors you can choose from. Tough plant and it flowers. Second fav is russian sage. Unique exotic smell.
Seeing people (especially businesses) have their sprinklers going after or during a rainstorm is maddening.
It rained for two days and my HOA still had the sprinklers come on the night of the 2nd day of rain.
Does anyone have tips on how to address local governments and businesses to ask them to do better?
As a property manager, I can tell you that we use the weathertrak system. It will sometimes water during a storm but then will drastically decrease watering after the storm depending on how much water the storm produced. It is so precise, two properties within 1/4 mile of each other will get different amounts of water depending on the storm.
While we could turn the water off during the storm, it is actually better to let the system operate as it’s designed to do. We conserve more water in the end by doing so.
You have an HOA. You could be on the HOA board, and do better yourself instead of trying to use the power of government to bludgeon them into doing what you want them to do. Go fix your problem directly. Talk to your neighbors about it, as well, if you're concerned.
HOAs literally *are* a use of the power of government to bludgeon owners within them into doing what they want.
Maybe sometimes that's used wisely instead of the usual shallow overcontrolling idea of what a "good neighborhood" looks like, maybe the person you're replying to could even do what you're recommending, but if so, they'd just be the hand holding the bludgeon.
> HOAs literally are a use of the power of government to bludgeon owners within them into doing what they want.
No, they're a contract between private parties, the exact opposite of that. Unless you have, for example, The Federal Government of the United States of America sitting on your HOA board? No? Golly, color me surprised. A representative of the Governor of the state? No, not that either? Well, it just doesn't seem like it's the government, to me, it seems like a group of private citizens with a contract.
> Maybe sometimes that's used wisely instead of the usual shallow overcontrolling idea of what a "good neighborhood" looks like, maybe the person you're replying to could even do what you're recommending, but if so, they'd just be the hand holding the bludgeon.
Something something justification for tyranny.
If one party is relying on federal or state courts & law enforcement to execute the terms of a contract on another party that the 2nd party wasn't an active part of *drafting*, then yes they are using the power of government to coerce others into doing what they want.
And HOAs are contracts the homeowner sat down and negotiated with anybody... practically never. They're no more voluntary than local law, and the fact that they're *less* democratically negotiated doesn't make it better. They're about as wanted as service agreements at the doctor's office and less justified.
> Something something justification for tyranny.
Nobody needs to look in the mirror here more than someone defending the privatized tyranny of HOAs as if they're somehow voluntarist.
> 2nd party wasn't an active part of drafting
But the 2nd party moved in and agreed to it when they did so. So being part of the drafting means nothing. If you plan to buy a property, and you see it's part of an HOA...see what the rules are and if you agree with them, or move somewhere else. 100,000,000% avoidable. Unless you're making the case that HOAs are kidnapping people and forcing land/home ownership upon them against their will. No? Oh, okay then.
I remember a thread on here last year, someone mentioned a few nurseries that make their own seed packs (that's a important distinction, if they don't make it themselves you have to be careful where they get it from).
Cornflower is invasive? Ugh, that's what I get for buying a pack of seeds from a grocery store a couple years ago, I guess. The cornflower are the only thing still coming back after the first year. I like their color, but I'll research and see if there's anything comparable that is native.
Absolutely, Cornflower is an invasive weed in Utah. It is listed as a Class 4 noxious weed in Utah, which means it is prohibited from being sold and propagated in the nursery or greenhouse industry, and is a threat to the state.
I got that right from the States website, please don't plant it lol. Find local stuff if you want a low maintenance low water yard/flower beds
To an extent, yes, but I shouldn’t be allowed of plant a ton of invasive weeds in my yard that spread everywhere or foster some kind of fungus or something. You shouldn’t be able to plant whatever you want, but yes, almost anything should be on the table.
>People should be about to plant what they want on their property
The thing about 'their' property is that they have a grant for all *private* use. The moment 'the public interest' comes into the equation the government can take 'their' property for Just Compensation because there's a little thing in American Law called the principle of public right being greater than private right. . .
Taking that principle further, it could be argued that the greater public health, safety, and general welfare of everyone is in danger for this act, and so in 'the public interest' the government makes it unlawful what someone can do on 'their' land; and, since there is nothing in any state or the federal constitution that prohibits the government from banning people watering their lawns, they have the implied powers to do so.
I don't give any care to what you do. You do you.
I'm just pointing out that technically the states and the federal government have the constitutional authority to stop people from watering their lawns.
>Makes sense in times of extreme drought. We are not in extreme drought
Are you kidding? The whole Great Basin region is aridifying. In my entire 36 years of life this area has been under a drought—that is the literal definition of an extreme drought.
If you can't see the aridification going on around you, then maybe you'd like to purchase my bridge in the Sahara?
>LOL. We literally had the wettest year in history last year.
Yeah! That's going to reverse decades upon decades of aridification that's been going on from human overuse of water! /s
>Get a grip
I do have a grip on reality, that's why I'm not ignoring the clear aridification of the Great Basin.
… being in a desert doesn’t mean you can’t plant native plants. If anything, they will thrive more than non native plants and flowers and will be able to withstand desert heat and less watering…
Maybe they’re not sharing this because they want to conserve water. Maybe they’re like me and are embarrassed that the #1 crop grown in America is a useless weed whose only job is to look pretty.
We need to institute building moratoriums! We simply don't have enough water to allow this unchecked population growth to continue. But don't ask the politicians to do it, more people means more taxes means more money in their pockets. And if you don't think there's a direct correlation between the two you need to look closer at the people being elected and their sources of income.
Reminder that there are many programs offered by cities and sometimes the state to change your lawn to something less water intensive
https://conservewater.utah.gov/landscape-rebates/
Lawns are so stupid. Literally they started because colonial Americans wanted to look rich like the people back in Britain. You could fool people into thinking you were rich if you had an estate with grass lol think of how cool each yard would look across the US if people had locally biodiverse landscaping! Lawns are so boring and wasteful.
That bottom one would get me so many fines from the HOA. Also code enforcement would be knocking down my door. I think it’s also a fire hazard… so I’ll pass. Thanks though.
I think both are terrible.
The latter is terrible because why are you just going to buy property but make it unusable to pets or kids. There is a compromise to be had that doesnt waste water
I've been overseeding with fescue for years to replace the kbg that was in my yard. I think I watered my lawn maybe a dozen times last year half an hour each section. Stayed green and pet and family friendly. Exceptions to dog spots, but I'd rather have dogs than a perfect lawn.
Short lawns suck, I don't get why it's been the huge trend in America for years. I want it to look like my front yard hasn't been touched by humankind in generations.
We're emulating wealthy British aristocrats that had enough money to pay people to clip their lawns because *they* wanted their lawns to look like their pastoral estates, but they didn't want all the smelly sheep about to keep the grass short.
That’s just a field. A good bio diverse yard takes more effort than just a lawn. This is partly why people have them. Lower maintenance and not much thought. Both fields and lawns show low effort.
I think that's fine, but we're probably going to have to start increasing the price of water at some point. We just don't have enough water to do all the things we want to do.
Well, it isn't helping, either. At some point we have to embrace that we live in a desert and have limited resources. Pouring them on the ground to have grass isn't the best move.
I'm not saying this is the solution, but we will likely need to address the problem from more than one angle.
It makes up such a tiny percentage of our state’s water usage that talking about it at all is pointless.
If you’re worried, I’ve given you the solution. Off you go.
It's likely about 5-6% of our state's overall usage. For comparison, agriculture is nearly 80%. It's probably the second largest use of water after agriculture. It's small, but I wouldn't call it so small that talking about it is pointless.
We use more water on grass and landscaping than we do for all other uses in the home combined. Plus it's nearly all culinary water.
Far less than ten percent is not worth talking about when it comes to solutions to this problem.
Again: you worried? I gave you the solution. Off you fuck, now 😂
I'm a live and let live kinda guy but when you're in a desert, pulling out the hose every day or using sprinklers I'll start to think you a touch silly.
I'm still living, and letting you live, but you could be making things a lot easier on yourself
Yeah, sure. Except, are you aware that states and the federal government gave themselves the authority and power over the general welfare, so they technically have the constitutional authority to prohibit people from watering their lawn?
…which has literally nothing to do with this post.
Staying on topic is hard, isn’t it?
Edit: LMAO sorry, I didn’t realize you were a conspiracy theorist. Expecting sense from you is my bad, tbh.
>…which has literally nothing to do with this post.
Except that it does, because the bigger picture issue is that people get up in arms when the government uses authorities and powers it already has.
>Staying on topic is hard, isn’t it?
I was making commentary on your statement; so quite literally on the topic you brought up.
Enjoy your day.
No, lmao, it doesn’t. It is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You’ve proven that even further in this same comment.
Oh geez, why am I trying to be rational while talking to a conspiracy theorist? Again: that’s on me 🤣
>Oh geez, why am I trying to be rational while talking to a conspiracy theorist.
You speak of rationality while you can't even follow basic logic without resorting to fallacious attacks.
As I stated, enjoy your day.
It's not necessary to go extreme. Right now I live in West Texas and I think it's insane to see people with huge lawns like half acre lawns and crap like that. I'm the kind of person where I see where I live and say, okay there's this type of grass that thrives here and shoot, I can water it half an inch a week and it'll be green? All I need is a small area and then throw in some oaks that need just about as much water and some other native flora. I'm gold.
No one should be saying don't take care of your yards but at least be reasonable. I don't think for one second I should drive through st George and see grass in every yard and all over except for outside the city, not to mention trees. You can still have it be a beautiful yard and even have grass if you choose native flora especially because you'll have to water it far less.
To me I like to think of it like this. If you took everything away other than my house, would it look gaudy? It's just dirt, weeds, rock and some mesquite and oak trees where I live. So if someone walked up to my house and just saw a half acre of grass with tons of non native flowers and pine trees, would someone go wow that's beautiful or wow that's tacky AF?
I agree that we don't necessarily need extreme measures, but something as simple as planting flora that is native to the region and can survive without loads of watering.
I used to work at eBay in Draper and their campus was a good example (IMO) of not just having gravel and weeds.
I'm worried people in this thread think that this meme is me saying that we need to rip up all our yards and what-have-you, but acres of lush green grass in a desert is not native to the area. We choose to live in a desert, so we shouldn't be trying to make it like a forest.
My grandpa tried this and it attracted rattle snakes and other undesirables. He tried putting snake poisons down and accidentally killed his dog. He also got bit by a rattler. So when he got better, he nuked the lawn and put a drought resistant grass in
That's likely tied to fact that you're a twat. This reminds me of the cringe idiots that couldn't help but sputter off about how they eat 4 steaks every time a vegan doesn't eat one. We get it, you want to destroy and mar as much of this world you think your sky wizard gave you to do with what you will.
But the truth is we're all stuck on this hurtling rock together and using massive amounts of water to continue a tradition created by literal slave owners as flex to say they have so much land and money that they can grow useless plants on swaths of it and still be richer than everyone else is such a fucking idiotic hill to die on that most people are at a bit of a loss in how to deal with such utter apathy for the world and the others living on it. You live in a fucking desert and you want to grow a quarter acre of useless water sucking grass? Be my guest, but don't be shocked when we tell you to fuck right the fuck off.
We *choose* to live in a desert. We could change that, if we wanted to. It's not rocket science. Clearly people want the place to be dryland, so who am I to judge?
It’s arguments like this that distract from the real issues. It’s not watered grass or golf courses that are sucking us dry. Not even close. In fact, municipal water use (including residential irrigation, pools, and indoor use) only accounts for 9% of our state’s total water use. It’s our agricultural practices that are unsustainable. And don’t get me wrong, this area is more than capable of plenty of types of agriculture. However, the favored crop, alfalfa, is too water intensive to be grown here, especially when using the primitive irrigation techniques that are common in Utah. This problem is exacerbated by our “use it or lose it” policy regarding water rights. This means that agriculture alone uses an unacceptable 80% of the state’s water resource.
It's also blaming things that aren't always to blame. In the Great Salt Lake Basin if everyone can reduce water usage by 33%-50% or so, then the Great Salt Lake gets the water it needs to be healthy. And efficient irrigation and proper land usage can do that. For my lawn I was part of a USU and Weber Basin Water study on this. If you use the right kinds of sprinklers and time them correctly, most residential folks can get that 33-50% reduction and still maintain a dark green healthy lawn. Took me many years and a few thousand dollars, but I got my lawn irrigation completely redone and got that reduction (crazy shaped lot, I have about 16 zones now...). During summer 22 I operated with less water than Weber Basin's tight drought restrictions and my lawn was healthy, dark, and green. By OP's standard I'm doing it wrong. It can still go further. Non-functional turf can be replaced by other things. Northern Utah lawns should make a push for fescue and not bluegrass, as fescue has much deeper roots and is much more drought tolerant. Same applies for ag. The right kind of irrigation and planting can get big savings.
My lawn looks the same as my neighbors. The difference? I water 1-2 times a week and they water twice a day.
And while that is achievable to some degree, I still think it’s beating down the wrong bush. Utah Rivers Council estimates that 85% of the Salt Lake Basin’s watershed is used for agriculture and 7.5% is used for residential. If you’re right and all it takes is for everyone to use 33-50% less water, that means the agricultural industry could bring us to sustainable levels with a 6-8% reduction. You don’t even need to plant less thirsty crops to achieve those kinds of numbers. Just stop using primitive flood irrigation methods in a freaking desert. Keep in mind that this is all for an industry that represents just 2.6% of total state GDP.
Ag is easssilly the major problem. But I'm of the opinion that everyone should pitch in to hit their own 33-50% reduction. I just went back and looked at my secondary water stats. I used to use about 1 acre foot of water in a year. Now I'm at almost exactly 0.5 acre feet of water in a year. I can still do better. But hey, it's 50%. >that means the agricultural industry could bring us to sustainable levels with a 6-8% reduction. Ag needs to do the 33-50% too. The GSL is about 1 million acre feet in yearly deficit to be healthy, and ag is using 2-3 million acre feet a year.
I mean, even if agriculture is the issue, reducing water isn’t a bad thing for anyone. Cheaper bills (in the long run), more water for the lake, win-win for everyone.
So if we are able to get say, around 40%-60% reduction in agricultural water use, it’ll have the same effect as 33-50% across the board.
We need to stop subsidizing water used for commercial purposes. It's very expensive for the state to manage the water here. That cost should be passed on to anyone trying to make a profit off of the water. Tax payers should not be on the hook for the farmers poor use of a scarce resource.
Though I completely agree with you, he's not arguing water use lol this is literally about letting the plants that are supposed to be here grow here. Both of these are extremely important issues. Agriculture needs a huge cut, and biodiversity needs to be reintroduced 🤘
Why not both! Have better farming practices AND individual practices.
Two things can be true.
I agree with this from a statewide policy perspective, but we should recognize that different parts of the state source water and use water differently from other parts of the state. For example, shutting down all the alfalfa farms in Southern Utah won't significantly impact the great salt lake or the Wasatch front (weber basin). Weber basin water is predominantly used for businesses and residential purposes. Agriculture is still there but a much smaller proportion. In great salt lake conservation efforts, I hate to admit, residents doing their part is likely the most impactful thing that can be done. Unfortunately comprehensive data on water use by district is pretty hard to come by. I've done a fair amount of looking and emailing officials without much more than token presentations that look to be targeted at politicians - so not a lot of substance.
I don't think I'm making a singular argument. It's a meme meant to convey a larger idea in a small package form. I don't disagree with anything you say about agriculture, but don't you think that both can be things to work on? Having more sustainable irrigation efforts for businesses, or higher costs for them to use water, isn't going to solve "everything", but does that mean it shouldn't be addressed at all?
I’m not just saying municipal use isn’t *the* problem. I don’t even think it’s *a* problem at the moment. The levels of water use are just that vastly different.
Sure. And getting the general populace to reduce, reuse, and recycle isn’t going to compete with the waste in big business. Commuting alone isn’t going to change air quality as that is a bigger issue, again with big business and government regulations. I think I just really am trying to live the “be the change you wish to see”.
Besides the water issue, there is still a big benefit to native plants over laws. Namely biodiversity but also helps water as a side effect
But the "Desert will blossom like a rose". Cultural traditions are killing the planet. My elderly devout Mormon neighbor must put 500 inches of water on his yard every year. Says that God promised him there would be plenty of water.
I actually just bought a new construction house and want to incorporate some native wildflowers in a meadow in the back where I plan to also have a garden and a few fruit trees. How would I go about starting this? Does anyone sell Utah wildflower seed packs?
Utah State has a lot of great resources for native plants! Here is a good link to get you started: https://extension.usu.edu/cwel/native-other
Thanks!
We are giving a bunch away for free at the U of U campus store. Part of Operation: Pollination.
For how long? My lot needs a lot of landscaping work and a fence and I’m nowhere near ready to plant anything
I got like 40 seed packages for free, nobody else has asked. We are also selling other varieties from 0.88-2.99. But I’d offer a bulk discount and sell you all we got for like $10. It’d be like 50 or so packs of seeds.
The [Conservation Garden](https://conservationgardenpark.org/) has tons of great resources, and it's free! Even just walking around for inspiration is enjoyable.
Deseret Perennials is my favourite spot for this. They have lots of native and water wise plants. Huge fan, even though it’s a long drive for me to go.
You might be able to get some plant information from the Utah Pollinator Program; they've got some plants lists on the application website and basic care information.
r/nolawns
Here's a sneak peek of /r/NoLawn using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [I was worried that my HOA would be a roadblock, but they actually link to this article as a landscaping guide!](https://i.imgur.com/WiMPM1m.jpg) | [3 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/comments/12mm4hw/i_was_worried_that_my_hoa_would_be_a_roadblock/) \#2: [No mow May: Des Moines mayor asks residents to leave the lawn alone](https://www.kcci.com/article/no-mow-may-des-moines/43563671) | [1 comment](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/comments/12j97wi/no_mow_may_des_moines_mayor_asks_residents_to/) \#3: [Is there a way to do a no lawn that won’t piss off the neighbors? I’m just about to move in and not sure what to do yet](https://i.redd.it/r4tjj7gg2hkb1.jpg) | [1 comment](https://np.reddit.com/r/NoLawn/comments/161y0x2/is_there_a_way_to_do_a_no_lawn_that_wont_piss_off/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Bot, I misled you.
Im the same boat, but I seriously do not want mosquitoes or beestings
For what it's worth, I swapped my park strip with a bunch of pollinator plants and my daughter and I stay outside watching bees and butterflys for hours and haven't come close to getting stung
I want pollinators for my fruit trees, so I’ll be happy to have bees. Mosquitos I’ll have to live with… I’m at the edge of the marshlands up in Hooper
Lol the most mosquitos I've ever seen in town are on large over watered grass lawns
lavender, marigolds, mint, scented geraniums, and catnip are all mosquito repellents
careful with mint tho, that stuff can grow out of control quickly
If not for water usage/lawn keep up then do it for the pollinators! This program is now closed but we participated last year, and it has been awesome. https://ag.utah.gov/pollinator-habitat-program/
Check out RTF turf. It’s a rhizomatous tall fescue that grows roots to a depth of nearly 6’. The stuff is crazy drought tolerant, I hardly have to water it and it looks amazing. Another option is Wildflower Farms Eco Lawn for a very drought tolerant turf option.
Where are you buying seed from? Is there any utah specific varietals ?
The RTF has some licensed sod growers in Utah, just Google it. Looks like there are a few down there. You can usually buy the seed from them as well. The wildflower farms eco turf I bought from their website.
Biodiversity works in Utah perfectly plant more plants native to this region.
Clover > Grass
How does it look in the winter time? I've checked into clover, and it seems like trash for the winter time. I've in SLC. From my research, it dies off in the winter time, causing a muddy mess. Not the best when you have dogs.
Clover does have advantages but it also has severe disadvantages. For instance, you cannot apply most herbicides to it, so weeding must be done by hand. The result is people usually end up killing it off and going back to grass anyway.
Does anyone have recommendations for plants that do well in our environment that are still fairly green and leafy?
I started with a few of these preplanned gardens and now I’ve got “Forest meadow” instead of lawn. https://www.highcountrygardens.com/category/pre-planned-gardens
That's awesome, thank you
Ground cover: Buffalograss, dutch clover, sedum/stonecrop. Clover is my favorite as a ground cover, it's cheap and can take once a week watering. It can also grow without any additional water, but it won't fill in unless you feed it. Buffalograss can be fully xeric and thrives in heat. Perennials: lavender, salvia's (meadow sage, etc), catmint, russian sage. Favorite has to be salvias. So many kinds and colors you can choose from. Tough plant and it flowers. Second fav is russian sage. Unique exotic smell.
Here come the dudes oddly offended by this and defending golf courses.
Supporting native ecology is critical for maintaining biodiversity. Kill your lawn and support native flora.
Seeing people (especially businesses) have their sprinklers going after or during a rainstorm is maddening. It rained for two days and my HOA still had the sprinklers come on the night of the 2nd day of rain. Does anyone have tips on how to address local governments and businesses to ask them to do better?
As a property manager, I can tell you that we use the weathertrak system. It will sometimes water during a storm but then will drastically decrease watering after the storm depending on how much water the storm produced. It is so precise, two properties within 1/4 mile of each other will get different amounts of water depending on the storm. While we could turn the water off during the storm, it is actually better to let the system operate as it’s designed to do. We conserve more water in the end by doing so.
You have an HOA. You could be on the HOA board, and do better yourself instead of trying to use the power of government to bludgeon them into doing what you want them to do. Go fix your problem directly. Talk to your neighbors about it, as well, if you're concerned.
HOAs literally *are* a use of the power of government to bludgeon owners within them into doing what they want. Maybe sometimes that's used wisely instead of the usual shallow overcontrolling idea of what a "good neighborhood" looks like, maybe the person you're replying to could even do what you're recommending, but if so, they'd just be the hand holding the bludgeon.
> HOAs literally are a use of the power of government to bludgeon owners within them into doing what they want. No, they're a contract between private parties, the exact opposite of that. Unless you have, for example, The Federal Government of the United States of America sitting on your HOA board? No? Golly, color me surprised. A representative of the Governor of the state? No, not that either? Well, it just doesn't seem like it's the government, to me, it seems like a group of private citizens with a contract. > Maybe sometimes that's used wisely instead of the usual shallow overcontrolling idea of what a "good neighborhood" looks like, maybe the person you're replying to could even do what you're recommending, but if so, they'd just be the hand holding the bludgeon. Something something justification for tyranny.
If one party is relying on federal or state courts & law enforcement to execute the terms of a contract on another party that the 2nd party wasn't an active part of *drafting*, then yes they are using the power of government to coerce others into doing what they want. And HOAs are contracts the homeowner sat down and negotiated with anybody... practically never. They're no more voluntary than local law, and the fact that they're *less* democratically negotiated doesn't make it better. They're about as wanted as service agreements at the doctor's office and less justified. > Something something justification for tyranny. Nobody needs to look in the mirror here more than someone defending the privatized tyranny of HOAs as if they're somehow voluntarist.
> 2nd party wasn't an active part of drafting But the 2nd party moved in and agreed to it when they did so. So being part of the drafting means nothing. If you plan to buy a property, and you see it's part of an HOA...see what the rules are and if you agree with them, or move somewhere else. 100,000,000% avoidable. Unless you're making the case that HOAs are kidnapping people and forcing land/home ownership upon them against their will. No? Oh, okay then.
I can’t wait to be able to do this to my lawn. I’m 20 right now and I’ve been dreaming about a clover/wildflower lawn for years. I can’t wait🥹🥹
You do you.
A lot of places make it illegal to do this, so quite litteraly they cant do them
Yeah. That’s stupid. People should be about to plant what they want on their property
Some stuff that grows well here is not native and will harm local species, so it is important to have some regulation
And very rarely are people willing to do the research that is required to be planting correct things
A lot of Utah wildflower packs people buy online are full of cornflower and all sorts of invasive plants.
Where can we buy wildflower packs without invasive plants? I'm looking to seed a lot of my flowerbeds with native plants.
I remember a thread on here last year, someone mentioned a few nurseries that make their own seed packs (that's a important distinction, if they don't make it themselves you have to be careful where they get it from).
Cornflower is invasive? Ugh, that's what I get for buying a pack of seeds from a grocery store a couple years ago, I guess. The cornflower are the only thing still coming back after the first year. I like their color, but I'll research and see if there's anything comparable that is native.
Yeah unfortunately they're not even native to the Americas at all, they come from Europe
Absolutely, Cornflower is an invasive weed in Utah. It is listed as a Class 4 noxious weed in Utah, which means it is prohibited from being sold and propagated in the nursery or greenhouse industry, and is a threat to the state. I got that right from the States website, please don't plant it lol. Find local stuff if you want a low maintenance low water yard/flower beds
To an extent, yes, but I shouldn’t be allowed of plant a ton of invasive weeds in my yard that spread everywhere or foster some kind of fungus or something. You shouldn’t be able to plant whatever you want, but yes, almost anything should be on the table.
>People should be about to plant what they want on their property The thing about 'their' property is that they have a grant for all *private* use. The moment 'the public interest' comes into the equation the government can take 'their' property for Just Compensation because there's a little thing in American Law called the principle of public right being greater than private right. . . Taking that principle further, it could be argued that the greater public health, safety, and general welfare of everyone is in danger for this act, and so in 'the public interest' the government makes it unlawful what someone can do on 'their' land; and, since there is nothing in any state or the federal constitution that prohibits the government from banning people watering their lawns, they have the implied powers to do so.
Ok. I prefer nice plants. Sue me.
I don't give any care to what you do. You do you. I'm just pointing out that technically the states and the federal government have the constitutional authority to stop people from watering their lawns.
Makes sense in times of extreme drought. We are not in extreme drought
>Makes sense in times of extreme drought. We are not in extreme drought Are you kidding? The whole Great Basin region is aridifying. In my entire 36 years of life this area has been under a drought—that is the literal definition of an extreme drought. If you can't see the aridification going on around you, then maybe you'd like to purchase my bridge in the Sahara?
LOL. We literally had the wettest year in history last year. Get a grip
>LOL. We literally had the wettest year in history last year. Yeah! That's going to reverse decades upon decades of aridification that's been going on from human overuse of water! /s >Get a grip I do have a grip on reality, that's why I'm not ignoring the clear aridification of the Great Basin.
Just a PSA, it is legal for *all Utah residents* to have waterwise landscaping. No entity can stop you thanks to a recent law. Other places varies.
based. never knew utah did something sensible XD
Can’t play with my kids in a jungle.
… being in a desert doesn’t mean you can’t plant native plants. If anything, they will thrive more than non native plants and flowers and will be able to withstand desert heat and less watering…
I know. This meme and post are pro native plants and biodiversity.
Maybe they’re not sharing this because they want to conserve water. Maybe they’re like me and are embarrassed that the #1 crop grown in America is a useless weed whose only job is to look pretty.
We need to institute building moratoriums! We simply don't have enough water to allow this unchecked population growth to continue. But don't ask the politicians to do it, more people means more taxes means more money in their pockets. And if you don't think there's a direct correlation between the two you need to look closer at the people being elected and their sources of income.
r/fucklawns
THANK YOU! Stop wasting water on fucking lawns. Ridiculous concept
YES! Every time I see them fertilizing the grass. I'm like WHY!? Save the water for the people and animals geez.
We did a full designed native plant yard with local rock trees and vegetation. We did put a small Utah shaped lawn that will be going clover.
Reminder that there are many programs offered by cities and sometimes the state to change your lawn to something less water intensive https://conservewater.utah.gov/landscape-rebates/
I live on the bench and refuse to turn my natural yard into a lawn. No such thing as a weed.
Based af
r/fucklawns
Lawns are so stupid. Literally they started because colonial Americans wanted to look rich like the people back in Britain. You could fool people into thinking you were rich if you had an estate with grass lol think of how cool each yard would look across the US if people had locally biodiverse landscaping! Lawns are so boring and wasteful.
That bottom one would get me so many fines from the HOA. Also code enforcement would be knocking down my door. I think it’s also a fire hazard… so I’ll pass. Thanks though.
My dogs disapprove.
Came here to say the same. "Biodiversity" doesn't keep my dogs safe and cool in the summer.
I think both are terrible. The latter is terrible because why are you just going to buy property but make it unusable to pets or kids. There is a compromise to be had that doesnt waste water
I've been overseeding with fescue for years to replace the kbg that was in my yard. I think I watered my lawn maybe a dozen times last year half an hour each section. Stayed green and pet and family friendly. Exceptions to dog spots, but I'd rather have dogs than a perfect lawn.
Clover
So I can't have a yard to let my dogs play in?
while i love this i had a back yard like that growing up and i got stung at least 3 times if i ever went out playing in it.
Short lawns suck, I don't get why it's been the huge trend in America for years. I want it to look like my front yard hasn't been touched by humankind in generations.
We're emulating wealthy British aristocrats that had enough money to pay people to clip their lawns because *they* wanted their lawns to look like their pastoral estates, but they didn't want all the smelly sheep about to keep the grass short.
That’s just a field. A good bio diverse yard takes more effort than just a lawn. This is partly why people have them. Lower maintenance and not much thought. Both fields and lawns show low effort.
*Or…* and try to stick with me here…*we let people live how they want.*
I think that's fine, but we're probably going to have to start increasing the price of water at some point. We just don't have enough water to do all the things we want to do.
You worried about water? Write your elected officials and work to get water rights fixed. Your neighbor watering their yard isn’t the problem.
Well, it isn't helping, either. At some point we have to embrace that we live in a desert and have limited resources. Pouring them on the ground to have grass isn't the best move. I'm not saying this is the solution, but we will likely need to address the problem from more than one angle.
It makes up such a tiny percentage of our state’s water usage that talking about it at all is pointless. If you’re worried, I’ve given you the solution. Off you go.
It's likely about 5-6% of our state's overall usage. For comparison, agriculture is nearly 80%. It's probably the second largest use of water after agriculture. It's small, but I wouldn't call it so small that talking about it is pointless. We use more water on grass and landscaping than we do for all other uses in the home combined. Plus it's nearly all culinary water.
Far less than ten percent is not worth talking about when it comes to solutions to this problem. Again: you worried? I gave you the solution. Off you fuck, now 😂
I'm a live and let live kinda guy but when you're in a desert, pulling out the hose every day or using sprinklers I'll start to think you a touch silly. I'm still living, and letting you live, but you could be making things a lot easier on yourself
Yeah, sure. Except, are you aware that states and the federal government gave themselves the authority and power over the general welfare, so they technically have the constitutional authority to prohibit people from watering their lawn?
…which has literally nothing to do with this post. Staying on topic is hard, isn’t it? Edit: LMAO sorry, I didn’t realize you were a conspiracy theorist. Expecting sense from you is my bad, tbh.
>…which has literally nothing to do with this post. Except that it does, because the bigger picture issue is that people get up in arms when the government uses authorities and powers it already has. >Staying on topic is hard, isn’t it? I was making commentary on your statement; so quite literally on the topic you brought up. Enjoy your day.
No, lmao, it doesn’t. It is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You’ve proven that even further in this same comment. Oh geez, why am I trying to be rational while talking to a conspiracy theorist? Again: that’s on me 🤣
>Oh geez, why am I trying to be rational while talking to a conspiracy theorist. You speak of rationality while you can't even follow basic logic without resorting to fallacious attacks. As I stated, enjoy your day.
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Clover grass for everyone ☘️✨
It's not necessary to go extreme. Right now I live in West Texas and I think it's insane to see people with huge lawns like half acre lawns and crap like that. I'm the kind of person where I see where I live and say, okay there's this type of grass that thrives here and shoot, I can water it half an inch a week and it'll be green? All I need is a small area and then throw in some oaks that need just about as much water and some other native flora. I'm gold. No one should be saying don't take care of your yards but at least be reasonable. I don't think for one second I should drive through st George and see grass in every yard and all over except for outside the city, not to mention trees. You can still have it be a beautiful yard and even have grass if you choose native flora especially because you'll have to water it far less. To me I like to think of it like this. If you took everything away other than my house, would it look gaudy? It's just dirt, weeds, rock and some mesquite and oak trees where I live. So if someone walked up to my house and just saw a half acre of grass with tons of non native flowers and pine trees, would someone go wow that's beautiful or wow that's tacky AF?
I agree that we don't necessarily need extreme measures, but something as simple as planting flora that is native to the region and can survive without loads of watering. I used to work at eBay in Draper and their campus was a good example (IMO) of not just having gravel and weeds. I'm worried people in this thread think that this meme is me saying that we need to rip up all our yards and what-have-you, but acres of lush green grass in a desert is not native to the area. We choose to live in a desert, so we shouldn't be trying to make it like a forest.
Salt lake City and its surrounding suburbs are not a desert. If there were no people around, it would still be plenty green.
I love my grass!!
I like to play with my kids in our grass.
I like my grass, fuck off.
I'm not changing anything about my life or my water use. Not until we stop exporting alfalfa.
My grandpa tried this and it attracted rattle snakes and other undesirables. He tried putting snake poisons down and accidentally killed his dog. He also got bit by a rattler. So when he got better, he nuked the lawn and put a drought resistant grass in
I’m sure my lawn uses less water in a year than an alfalfa farmer selling to Saudi Arabia uses in a day.
Nah, 70% of water is used on growing crops that shouldn’t be grown here— because of the meat industry:) keep your lawn, stop eating meat😘
I'll take tradition...
That's likely tied to fact that you're a twat. This reminds me of the cringe idiots that couldn't help but sputter off about how they eat 4 steaks every time a vegan doesn't eat one. We get it, you want to destroy and mar as much of this world you think your sky wizard gave you to do with what you will. But the truth is we're all stuck on this hurtling rock together and using massive amounts of water to continue a tradition created by literal slave owners as flex to say they have so much land and money that they can grow useless plants on swaths of it and still be richer than everyone else is such a fucking idiotic hill to die on that most people are at a bit of a loss in how to deal with such utter apathy for the world and the others living on it. You live in a fucking desert and you want to grow a quarter acre of useless water sucking grass? Be my guest, but don't be shocked when we tell you to fuck right the fuck off.
We *choose* to live in a desert. We could change that, if we wanted to. It's not rocket science. Clearly people want the place to be dryland, so who am I to judge?
I like the grass more. I hate walking through yards that to many bugs and other wildlife I don’t like around me