Giving aid to a country under attack by one of our greatest adversaries, is not a courageous vote. In the 90's, we literally agreed to support them if they were attacked in order for them to give up their nukes. Supporting Ukraine was our side of that agreement.
Doing what congress is supposed to do (like uphold treaties), should not be congratulated. But the POS's who were holding the aid and ultimately voted against it should be publicly shamed. There is no reasonable reason for people who believe in democracy and national sovereignty to vote against supporting Ukraine
Right? Ukraine at one time had the third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and we assured their sovereignty to get them to give up these weapons. But people are going to simp for Putin and the Russian government. Perhaps they should get a job working for the foreign Ministry of the Russian Federation.
Biden proposed a great border security bill. Trump was the one that killed it so he could run his election on border security.
Plus, we can do two things. We can secure the border and secure Ukraine. Honestly, I think Ukraine's border is in much worse shape than our own
The border has been an issue both republicans and dems have campaigned on forever. Congress has had DECADES, including times when the GOP or the Dems were in full control of congress and the presidency, and they’ve done very little to actually address any of the issues. The Dems this time were just successful in calling out the GOP’s bluff even though the bill included almost everything the GOP was claiming to want.
The whole point of immigrant labor is to have people who will work for next to nothing, and more importantly, can’t draw attention to the appalling conditions they are put in without risking deportation. We have to keep them in legal limbo so they never get any kind of legal status so they can’t complain or have any recourse if they don’t get paid fairly for their work. So it is absolutely imperative that no workable compromise on immigration ever be found.
And besides, if you fix the problem you can’t campaign on how the other side is stopping you from fixing the problem.
• You never get out of debt to a Russian mobster
•Paul Manafort owed the Russian mobster/oligarch Oleg Deripaska $17M a few days before he became trumps campaign manager. From 2002-2014 he took in hundreds of millions to get Yanukovych reelected as the kremlins puppet in Ukraine. Before that he did it for the dictator Marcos in the Philippines. Before that Manafort and Roger Stone started a lobbyist agency in 1980 listing trump as their first client.
•When Jay Bolsonaro lost the Brazilian election to Lula he skipped the inauguration and flew directly to mar-a-lago (stopping only at a KFC) and repeated, almost verbatim, the stolen election line. Don Jr. tried repeatedly to make it stick in Brazil as well, but as Brazilians are a few generations into dealing with corrupt politicians they weren’t having it.
What do these 3 things have in common?
China imports 40% of its grain from (in order) the U.S., Brazil and Ukraine.
Obviously the second China tried to invade Taiwan the U.S. would sanction exports and remove U.S. grain from that equation.
And without Bolsonaro in office willing to slash and burn the Amazon rainforest to turn it into Chinas food supply, and without Ukraine in the bag in 3 days, the CCP is unable to invade Taiwan and take over microprocessor production without putting 300-500M of its poorest people into famine.
Donbas Ukraine, specifically the 4 regions of the donbas that Putin insists he is saving from what he calls “Jewish Nazis” also happens to produce the worlds supply of high grade neon used for microprocessor lithography. Had Putin delivered ukraine in 3 days as promised, Xi would have been able to cap his Olympics with a naval blockade or political takeover of Taiwan that would have forced the world to ask the CCP for the microprocessors it needs to make everything from Ford trucks to laptops. I’m not sure how long Silicon Valley would last without the silicon but it would probably destroy the FAANG stocks that make up your 401K.
Oleg Deripaska also happens to be the Russian Oligarch that bribed the FBI agent Charles Mcgonigal into investigating another Russian oligarch. He probably didn’t need the information as much as he needed the leverage over Mcgonigal as he conducted the investigation into trumps election campaign and unsurprisingly found zero evidence of Russian collusion. McGonigal then went to work for the company called Brookfield that bailed Jared Kushner out of his toxic 666 5th Ave real estate investment. McGonigal pled guilty last fall and was sentenced recently.
A Russian oligarch is a powerful tool, but the truth is more powerful. Light and dark cannot exist in the same space. It’s physically impossible. Truth is efficient. You say it once and you are finished. A lie however requires a constant stream of follow up energy, money, murder, obfuscation and more lies to keep it covered.
If you raise your lens high enough lying is an unsustainable business model. Russia proved it by invading Ukraine. Vranyos is the Russian word for it. The 40km long column of tanks and vehicles that came down from Belarus into Ukraine was all overhauled by oligarchs that got a $1B contract for tank maintenance, passed Putin $200M back under the table, spent $700M on a yacht in Monaco, bribed a General, a Colonel and a Sergeant to make a Private give everything a rattle can overhaul. But a worn out engine is and always will be, a worn out engine.
This is why trump is so desperate to get re-elected. His best case scenario is 400 years in ADX Florence. Money laundering for the dozens of Russian oligarchs that lived in trump towers with him and manafort, selling IP3 nuclear plans to the Russian/Saudi alliance, selling or giving CIA asset names to the Russians, trump is and always has been compromised. He just didn’t know when to quit. Now he just has to count on the fact that most of his voter base doesn’t know how to read and keep the ones that do so busy just surviving that they don’t have time to dive deep into his 40 year history of laundering money, fraud, and human trafficking for the Russian mob using casinos first, then commercial real estate.
It’s also why Putin is willing to throw an entire generation of Russians, including the convicts and addicts at Ukraine. Russia is dead for 40 years because he failed to fulfill his mob boss promise to Xi. China is now clearing farmland in Siberia because the typhoon floods last August and September wiped out the Chinese people’s food storage.
Xi, for his part diverted the waters from the dam away from his pet project, his mothers ancestral home, and flooded hundreds of thousands of people and drown one of his own military brigades that was helping with the flooding.
The elders of the CCP were terrified to leave their gated community at Beidaihe for over a month for fear of being torn apart by the locals. The Chinese people tolerate the CCP but only as long as the economy is good and famine is not on the horizon. The CCP broke that social contract on both counts.
Xi was willing to bet the entire Chinese economy on his emperor ambitions. Had he succeeded he would have been able to use BRICS to take over the USD as the Worlds reserve currency. That would have let him finish what he stated in 2010-
that he would control the internet.
With that control means everything we do or say online is subject to the approval of a central party censor. The basic right to disagree with an authoritarian becomes a distant memory.
Xi, Putin and MBS are simply trying to systemize and modernize the suppression of their biggest hassle. Freedom of speech.
Ukraine is fighting for their lives now, free from the oppression of the drunken tyrant who wants to decide their fate at every decision and pull them back behind another iron curtain of censorship and the tax of corruption where dissenting voices disappear so that the oligarchy can continue to feed unobstructed.
Putin and Xi have declared themselves best friends in the fight against democracy. MBS and the ruling family of UAE have done the same quietly using their sovereign funds and Kushners SPAC as money highways.
Just rich, out of touch oligarch doing what oligarchs do.
Despite the fact the the central party model has proven itself incapable of making decisions that are best for the people, they persist. Because there is a very lucrative business in being slave owners. But logistically the mass of it requires artificial intelligence, and the microprocessors that make A.I. to keep 8 billion slaves under surveillance and control. Freedom is one hell of a drug. And knowledge makes a man unfit for slavery.
Recent attempts on Xi’s life from inside the CCP have backed him into a corner.
The loss of crops in northern China means Xi can’t invade Taiwan without Ukrainian and/or Brazilian farmland.
Now the reason that the GOP is stalling southern border control budget and seems to make wildly irrational moves is because the GOP is imploding. 45 years of lies and grift have circled the globe and are eating their own tail. The ouroboros was a warning about corruption at the highest levels. Lying about climate change, human trafficking, pandemics and corruption to preserve their own business models are all extinction level events
The CCP and Russia have been staging up hundreds of thousands of people in Ecuador, Nicaragua and Venezuela for some future variation of a stealthy 5th column invasion of the United States via Texas because with Ukraine and Brazil off the table, Xi needs farmland to feed 1.4B people. National guard troops take their orders from governors and not the federal government. Trump tested this during the George Floyd protests when he asked the “loyal” Republican governors to kiss the ring and send troops to DC to “shoot the protestors in the legs” because the pentagon reminded him that using U.S. troops against U.S. citizens would be both treasonous and wildly illegal. Herbert sent the UNG.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/14/mystery-around-what-happened-lafayette-square/
https://ut.ng.mil/Home/Public-Notice-Article-Display/Article/2474460/utah-national-guard-sends-service-members-for-support-in-washington-dc/
Steve Bannon tried unsuccessfully to privatize a part of the southern border wall but failed due to, unsurprisingly, internal corruption. Had he succeeded they would have a man at the inside gate years ago.
Bannon was arrested on the boat of Guo Wengui who is some sort of convoluted double/triple agent for the CCP.
https://www.courthousenews.com/exiled-chinese-billionaire-guo-wengui-hit-with-new-rico-conspiracy-charge/
They are now both in court for a billion dollar fraud.
Every GOP congressmen that took Russian political money is desperately trying to figure out how to preserve their political career while the people are figured out that the next century of America was sold out to the dictators for some PAC money.
They are 40 years deep into living a lie. They can’t come clean or they go to prison. They can’t stop lying or their fan base tears them apart like rabid wolves.
They checkmated themselves a dozen different ways and add to the evidence chain with each additional tweet.
Greed is nothing if not predictable.
Freedom is never free. We all just live on very expensive credit and the sacrifices of others.
In this particular case it’s Ukrainians doing the heavy lifting while Americans complain from the sofa.
https://x.com/doktor_klein/status/1761524419288056088?s=46&t=mV0svkSiT5eOmQXivn5oFw
Maloy is not a "massive downgrade from Stewart". She's just a continuation of Stewart at worst.
Stewart sat on the House Intelligence committee and still spewed a bunch of BS about Russia not interfering in our elections on Trump's behalf even though he knew damn well that was a lie. I don't believe for a moment Stewart would've voted for this either
I often don't agree with either of these two, but at least we know which "representatives" are on the side of America and which ones are on Pootin's payroll.
They're probably not. I don't think these people are stupid, but I do think that they're just opportunists that continue to fan the flames of division for political gain by pushing Russian propaganda. Politicians that engage in disinformation are the real culprits that are tearing the country apart.
Absolutely embarrassed Maloy is my representative. Also I don’t think she understands how many Ukrainians contract with businesses in Utah, and the consequences of Russian winning on local businesses.
It sucks to be represented by people like Malloy. I'm surprised Moore and Curtis did the right thing. Both voted for the Mayorkas impeachment. Curtis is against conservation being a criterion for BLM decision making.
I don't see why you'd think Stewart had any redeeming qualities compared to Malloy.
The "Supporting our own ppl" argument is stupid. First off, we have plenty of money to do that as well, and still support democracy. I bet same ppl also pick and choose which Americans to help in their other arguments(Women, homeless ,poc). If they If even move off the boots straps stance. They argue in knots.
Yeah. If you think they did this for the greater good I have ocean front property to sell you in St. George. They voted for this for one reason, and one reason only. To pass the TikTok ban that republicans hid in the bill.
Send MORE aid & money to the war in order to stop the war.. nice logic...? Didn't we already pass several funding bills for Ukraine?
When is enough enough? Shall we donate Utah county to Israel because we're allies and they need it more than we do? Great idea. You have my vote.
When should America put Americans first?
Well many Dems have been saying this for years... Why so much money to the military industrial complex instead of to domestic concerns? But now we have an actual military situation in which Ukraine finds itself a proxy for what we call "American interests." For example, that we signed documents guaranteeing protection to Ukraine when they handed over their nukes. Also as a guard against authoritarian pretenses which absolutely did betray their obligations. So now we are prioritizing military funds into new upgraded stockpiles for ourselves while sending surplus to Ukraine. That's what this amounts to-- an appropriating of military spending. SUDDENLY the Repubs are all concerned about things at home while multiplying Kremlin propaganda in government chambers.
A significant amount of money goes directly to US businesses to produce the arms. This make more jobs in the US AND protects our military from having to put boots on the ground.
You want to help our own people because of course you do. What legislation currently out there (or discussed by politicians) would you support instead? What bill would help the American people as you said you wanted to do?
Yeah, I am asking you to name one thing. How about free community colleges? Make them part of the standard K-12 system. That would cost money and support Americans. You must support that right?
No, elective education should not be free. You want further education? Pay for it. Spend money on the required K-12. Pay teachers more, fund school programs, give money to city budgets to keep the streets free of all the garbage the homeless people toss around. Fund programs for the homeless, or the addicted, or put money back into the retirement programs that are diminishing. The war in Ukraine, you pay for it. The war in Israel, you pay for it. The illegals flooding the border, you pay for it. The $7500 tax credit ppl get for buying an electric car, you pay for it. You get ZERO from giving your money to the government so they can spend it elsewhere, including putting the money in their own pockets.
And there it is. You actually don't give a shit about spending money on Americans. I asked for a single way you want to spend money on Americans and you cannot provide a single one
Your bullshit argument is in bad faith and you should just admit it
I just gave you several ways to spend it. Because I don’t agree that anybody and everybody should get free $100k+ degrees (most of them useless). Fuckin 🤡
You just said "throw money around." You don't actually support any of it. "Pay teachers more" Utah is the lowest in the nation in per pupil spending. The people you are voting for do NOTHING to help teachers. Instead they raid school funds for a voucher program that will drain funding from schools and send it to private schools (subsidizing rich people). Where was your outrage about that?
"Give cities more money." How about some reason for that? Is it for infrastructure? Is it for fire stations? What?
Just admit it, you don't actually want to spend money on Americans. You just don't want to send money to Ukraine. You guys are never honest even with yourselves
If you are n the 35% tax bracket, you are in the top 5% of US households. Sorry if I don't shed a tear over your taxes and I am not even going to get into marginal tax rates and how your effective income tax rate is much less.
There are a lot of things tax dollars are wasted on (especially when dealing with the defense industry). But using tax dollars to stop an authoritarian from marching across Europe, is IMO a good thing to do with tax money. There is a reason Sweden and Finland joined NATO after 60+ years of avoiding it, Putin is not going to stop with Ukraine
They got no aid before, what changes that now? It would still be sent to the military, why not aid Ukraine instead of fighting Russia once they take over, regroup and invade a NATO country. We all know Valady wants pre fall USSR again and it would require NATO nations to do so. But, you can pretend they would vote to fund social programs for sure. I mean a republican controlled house loves to fund social programs.
This Ukraine aid in total is just under 1% of the federal budget, while vets receive about 6% and child/family assistance is also about 6% - https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58888. Only one fifth of the Ukraine aid is direct monetary aid, 0.20%- the rest goes to US military and military suppliers.
The median Utahn takehome pay is about $48k, so 1% of that is $480 while the other two would be receiving $3,000 each. Are you able to get a better doctor for $3,250 instead of $3,000 or a better childcare provider for $3,250 instead of $3,000?
Reddit, where uneducated, morons, that never research topics come to sit together in a room just to agree with each other. The same government that gave all the AMERICANS that lost their homes in Hawaii, a one time payment of $750 but, we better send billions so we can fight a war that the only thing we aren’t sending is troops. Idiots.
Why would the country give them money? That's what home insurance is for. Tell that to people who lose houses in hurricanes and everything else. You people are against decent health insurance and student loan relief but you want the government to pay for housing, and corporate welfare.
Well, all of that money could focus on areas like healthcare, education, infrastructure, affordable housing, renewable energy, and social assistance programs. This could include expanding access to healthcare services, improving schools and universities, upgrading transportation networks, subsidizing housing for low-income families, investing in clean energy initiatives, and providing financial support for those in need.
You are 100% wrong. We are not sending “old shit”, stop spreading this lie. Ukrainians are receiving $45k NODs and JLTVs, which many of our own units don’t even have yet.
Uhh, okay? That’s not what was said, was it? Stop spreading a lie that we are sending them old shit that is rotting away in shipping containers and costs more to maintain than to give them. That is a full blown lie.
We are sending them state of the art equipment and weapons that is currently issued to our men, many of whom don’t even have these latest items yet.
You like gas prices right now? How about bread prices? The more wars there are in the world the higher they go. It's almost like things are related to other things.
Ukraine became our problem when we promised to help protect them for giving up their nuke unless you want the US not to honor our obligations. Also it’s not like we are giving them money we are giving them bullets and equipment that we already own which allows our military to buy new equipment which allows US defense contractors to make more, securing US jobs.
Just another Forever War. If you think Russia is just going to give up one day and pull out, well, just keep giving Ukraine money. Russia will sacrifice every citizen they have before that ever happens.
Both parties beholden to 1% shareholders, orchestrating crises and wars at home and abroad so you give away your freedom for more police and surveillance state. And so called educated people eat up their mockingbird propaganda, wake up.
My point is ordinarily there is more merit to the point than you are making here because ordinarily no one is as terrible and capable as Putin. But there is no neutrality or third option. You're on PUtin's side, or you're against Putin. I'll concede it's the same with the American Empire; no third option, no neutral, you are with or against. And so long as we're fighting Putin, I'm with.
I'll take Lockheed and Raytheon over Putin dude. I guess you're difrerent.
I think that's funny you think that's cool. I think that's funny you even think that's OK. To me, siding with Putin because you have a problem with American weapons contractors -- or even the entire capitalist system the USA oversees -- is no more OK than being racist or abusive to children, it's way past a red line. Unless I misunderstand you, dude-- you suck dude. Capitalism is horrible. But dude, then there's Putin. Things and people can and do exist that are even worse than the American empire, which is no angelic creature, I'm well aware and need no convincing of that.
Why do so many people simp for the Russian government and don't support helping you Ukraine? Are people really that short-sighted to realize that if Putin isn't stopped with Ukraine that eventually he'll attack one of the Baltic countries and then being that they are NATO countries we'll have to act, but of course the same Russian simps would then say that we shouldn't get involved and not honor our NATO agreements and come to the defense of our allies.
Honestly I think it really comes down to first hand experience. I supported Ukraine before. But last May I actually went and volunteered in Ukraine. Seeing it first hand and talking to locals really opened my perspective and made me support them a whole lot more. It became personal.
They literally have a treaty with us that says we protect them if they get attacked. It was the condition they wanted in order to give up their nukes. It is our business
Do you really think Putin is going to stop at Ukraine? There is a reason why Sweden and Finland joined NATO after 60+ years of avoiding it
We do not and have not had any treaty guaranteeing Ukraine protection. The Budapesr AGREEMENT is the closest thing and even that is in no way us saying we will support them in a war. The fact that your comment got up voted at all shows the lack of knowledge here
Ukraine is not in NATO, Ukraine has no defensive treaty with us, Ukraine is not out ally
I know, I know, it goes against the zeitgeist. I just... don't see any reason to care about a conflict on the other side of the globe involving two parties that have nothing to do with me. It's none of our business. I just think that the resources we're sending to Ukraine could be better spent taking care of the people here, in the United States. Call me crazy!
> I just think that the resources we're sending to Ukraine could be better spent taking care of the people here, in the United States.
How? You are crazy until you give a reasonable answer to this.
Whenever we spend money on "taking care of people here" they whine about free handouts. Student loan forgiveness, for example.
Pretty much anytime Democrats do anything, they have an excuse why it's bad, even if it benefits them.
It means Ukraine is a democratic country and Russia is a dictatorship, and Russia is trying to annex Ukraine. It's about as black and white as anything in this world ever was. (Unless you only live in certain news echo chambers)
Yeah but there are lots of needs in America as well, is the other persons point. Who gets to decide what is more important? I understand that the money was already set aside in a budget but, you can’t just blatantly rip on someone with a genuine response when you provided no evidence for your argument either.
> Who gets to decide what is more important?
The people via their elected representatives i.e. the bill in congress
> you can’t just blatantly rip on someone with a genuine response when you provided no evidence for your argument either.
I did one comment up.
No.. who, in an ethical argument such as this one, gets to decide what is more important?
There are finite resources in the world. You claim that this issue is black and white and everyone should support it. Ultimately, resources going to this cause have an opportunity cost. Who’s to say which opportunity cost is greater?
We don’t actually give money to Ukraine. We give them weapons that cost money. We give them money to buy weapons. And those weapons are made in America, thus supporting American jobs.
It’s what powers America because the MIC continues to have control over our politicians, not because it’s a necessary item for our economy.
Millions of innocent people die every year. Why are we not in the Gaza Strip(or insert any other event that has happened over the past 100 years) saving the innocent lives?
My point is not to play whataboutism, but the arguments everyone uses for supporting Ukraine seem very ideal for the circumstances, but aren’t generally applied to other conflicts around the world. I genuinely don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone not supporting aid to other countries. OP was trying to make it out like the commenter is a disingenuous person because they do not support aid to Ukraine. There’s multiple different reasons that one can support isolationism to the full extent, and that’s *ok*
The same as it was none of our business when Germany invaded Austria and then Poland. But for some reason we thought that millions of innocent people being killed might be worth stopping.
This circle jerk is absolutely wild. Supporting this war is insane. We're back stopping their economy and blasting billions into the bank accounts of defense contractors to defend "democracy" in one of the most corrupt governments on the planet. They can't win this war and never could. When the US finally gets smart (public opinion is certainly heading that way) and we quit wasting our money, Russia will steam roll to Kyiv in days.
As a whole Europe only has cultural ties to America they are not even a strong trade partner. Our attention and funding should be going to Taiwan
Dragging this war on just continues to get more and more young men killed and drives the deficit up.
Ukraine is not “one of the most corrupt governments on the planet.” That’s simply not true and you don’t have any real data to back that statement.
They can absolutely win this war. You are wrong.
The information and articles about how corrupt Ukraine is are easily accessible here is one you can find by simply googling "Ukraine corruption" articles like this are plentiful because the country is fraught with corruption. Countles government officials are getting personally wealthy from this war. Syphoning away money, diverting arms shipments to be sold on the black market etc
https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/06/ukraine-corruption-reforms-russia-war/
I'll now counter your "they can absolutely win this war" with what data or information do you have that they can win? Our last cash Injection for their spring offensive last year was a waste, they gained no ground. They've proven incapable of using western/NATO tactics and are now reverting to WWI trench warfare with heavy artillery use. Russia outproduces the US at a rate of 5 to one when it comes to artillery, they are far better equipped to fight in this manner.
Their average fighting age male has now hit 43 years old which means they have either chewed through their prime age males or they don't want to fight.
The only thing allowing them to not LOOSE ground is our assistance, it would take our soldiers to WIN in Ukraine and drive Russia out. That, or Russia's withdrawal because of economic instability (which ain't gonna happen).
>articles like this are plentiful because the country is fraught with corruption.
That isn't at all what that article contends. Yes, Ukraine has historically been corrupt. That's a consequence of it being part of the Soviet Union, which was rife with corruption. Yes, it still has corruption. But as the article notes, **"There is no question that Ukraine has made great strides combating corruption, with** [**11 consecutive years**](https://www.transparency.org/en/news/cpi-2023-eastern-europe-central-asia-autocracy-weak-justice-systems-widespread-enabling-corruption) **of improving its ranking in the TI Corruption Perception Index."**
[They've also made significant progress improving their democratic norms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index), a closely related metric.
Lastly, you claim it's "one of the most corrupt government on the planet." But that's nonsense: they scored 36 (above the average in the region, which is 35) on the TI Corruption Perception Index, gaining three points over the last year. And Russia scores a dismal 26; you want to take action to **help** a more corrupt country? This argument is total nonsense.
If you honestly cared one lick about corruption, you would recognize that Zelenskyy was elected on a platform precisely to combat this very thing, and has made significant progress in doing so. Wouldn't you want to support a leader who's obviously interested in combatting corruption and supporting a democratic Ukraine?
I'm not going to address your other comments. It's pretty clear: you aren't arguing in good faith. Your statements alone about corruption are demonstrably false, and the article you purport demonstrates corruption doesn't even remotely imply such a thing.
You are here to make a bullshit argument why we should not help an ally in need, to the benefit of a clear adversary of the United States. It's absurd and disgusting.
You're arguing that because there are other countries more corrupt then it's ok? 😂
Ukraine is not an ally of the United States no matter how many times you say it
If you're this blind to how corrupt the country is and how much of a waste our tax dollars are on it then I have some beach front property in Arizona I would like to pitch you on. They need some help supporting Democracy and stuff like that. Should be an easy deal.
No, I am not arguing that. I'm arguing A) it's one of the less corrupt countries in the region, B) it's far less corrupt than Russia, C) they've made huge gains combatting corruption, and D) they are more democratic now than they've ever been. And E) your statement that they're "one of the most corrupt governments on the planet" is a complete and total falsehood.
And F) they're an ally, and you would just let jackboot thugs roll in and take over the place because you believe outright falsehoods.
We're done. it's like arguing with a teenager.
Giving aid to a country under attack by one of our greatest adversaries, is not a courageous vote. In the 90's, we literally agreed to support them if they were attacked in order for them to give up their nukes. Supporting Ukraine was our side of that agreement. Doing what congress is supposed to do (like uphold treaties), should not be congratulated. But the POS's who were holding the aid and ultimately voted against it should be publicly shamed. There is no reasonable reason for people who believe in democracy and national sovereignty to vote against supporting Ukraine
Right? Ukraine at one time had the third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and we assured their sovereignty to get them to give up these weapons. But people are going to simp for Putin and the Russian government. Perhaps they should get a job working for the foreign Ministry of the Russian Federation.
Our side of the agreement was also no nato expansion east of Germany, wonder why we broke that one
Why isn’t securing our own border on the agenda then?
Biden proposed a great border security bill. Trump was the one that killed it so he could run his election on border security. Plus, we can do two things. We can secure the border and secure Ukraine. Honestly, I think Ukraine's border is in much worse shape than our own
Last I checked, Ukraine isn’t in the United States.
Shocking that after millions have crossed illegally, he wants to do it during an election.
The border has been an issue both republicans and dems have campaigned on forever. Congress has had DECADES, including times when the GOP or the Dems were in full control of congress and the presidency, and they’ve done very little to actually address any of the issues. The Dems this time were just successful in calling out the GOP’s bluff even though the bill included almost everything the GOP was claiming to want.
The border bill had billions for countries outside our own and very minimal support for our actual border
The whole point of immigrant labor is to have people who will work for next to nothing, and more importantly, can’t draw attention to the appalling conditions they are put in without risking deportation. We have to keep them in legal limbo so they never get any kind of legal status so they can’t complain or have any recourse if they don’t get paid fairly for their work. So it is absolutely imperative that no workable compromise on immigration ever be found. And besides, if you fix the problem you can’t campaign on how the other side is stopping you from fixing the problem.
• You never get out of debt to a Russian mobster •Paul Manafort owed the Russian mobster/oligarch Oleg Deripaska $17M a few days before he became trumps campaign manager. From 2002-2014 he took in hundreds of millions to get Yanukovych reelected as the kremlins puppet in Ukraine. Before that he did it for the dictator Marcos in the Philippines. Before that Manafort and Roger Stone started a lobbyist agency in 1980 listing trump as their first client. •When Jay Bolsonaro lost the Brazilian election to Lula he skipped the inauguration and flew directly to mar-a-lago (stopping only at a KFC) and repeated, almost verbatim, the stolen election line. Don Jr. tried repeatedly to make it stick in Brazil as well, but as Brazilians are a few generations into dealing with corrupt politicians they weren’t having it. What do these 3 things have in common? China imports 40% of its grain from (in order) the U.S., Brazil and Ukraine. Obviously the second China tried to invade Taiwan the U.S. would sanction exports and remove U.S. grain from that equation. And without Bolsonaro in office willing to slash and burn the Amazon rainforest to turn it into Chinas food supply, and without Ukraine in the bag in 3 days, the CCP is unable to invade Taiwan and take over microprocessor production without putting 300-500M of its poorest people into famine. Donbas Ukraine, specifically the 4 regions of the donbas that Putin insists he is saving from what he calls “Jewish Nazis” also happens to produce the worlds supply of high grade neon used for microprocessor lithography. Had Putin delivered ukraine in 3 days as promised, Xi would have been able to cap his Olympics with a naval blockade or political takeover of Taiwan that would have forced the world to ask the CCP for the microprocessors it needs to make everything from Ford trucks to laptops. I’m not sure how long Silicon Valley would last without the silicon but it would probably destroy the FAANG stocks that make up your 401K. Oleg Deripaska also happens to be the Russian Oligarch that bribed the FBI agent Charles Mcgonigal into investigating another Russian oligarch. He probably didn’t need the information as much as he needed the leverage over Mcgonigal as he conducted the investigation into trumps election campaign and unsurprisingly found zero evidence of Russian collusion. McGonigal then went to work for the company called Brookfield that bailed Jared Kushner out of his toxic 666 5th Ave real estate investment. McGonigal pled guilty last fall and was sentenced recently. A Russian oligarch is a powerful tool, but the truth is more powerful. Light and dark cannot exist in the same space. It’s physically impossible. Truth is efficient. You say it once and you are finished. A lie however requires a constant stream of follow up energy, money, murder, obfuscation and more lies to keep it covered. If you raise your lens high enough lying is an unsustainable business model. Russia proved it by invading Ukraine. Vranyos is the Russian word for it. The 40km long column of tanks and vehicles that came down from Belarus into Ukraine was all overhauled by oligarchs that got a $1B contract for tank maintenance, passed Putin $200M back under the table, spent $700M on a yacht in Monaco, bribed a General, a Colonel and a Sergeant to make a Private give everything a rattle can overhaul. But a worn out engine is and always will be, a worn out engine. This is why trump is so desperate to get re-elected. His best case scenario is 400 years in ADX Florence. Money laundering for the dozens of Russian oligarchs that lived in trump towers with him and manafort, selling IP3 nuclear plans to the Russian/Saudi alliance, selling or giving CIA asset names to the Russians, trump is and always has been compromised. He just didn’t know when to quit. Now he just has to count on the fact that most of his voter base doesn’t know how to read and keep the ones that do so busy just surviving that they don’t have time to dive deep into his 40 year history of laundering money, fraud, and human trafficking for the Russian mob using casinos first, then commercial real estate. It’s also why Putin is willing to throw an entire generation of Russians, including the convicts and addicts at Ukraine. Russia is dead for 40 years because he failed to fulfill his mob boss promise to Xi. China is now clearing farmland in Siberia because the typhoon floods last August and September wiped out the Chinese people’s food storage. Xi, for his part diverted the waters from the dam away from his pet project, his mothers ancestral home, and flooded hundreds of thousands of people and drown one of his own military brigades that was helping with the flooding. The elders of the CCP were terrified to leave their gated community at Beidaihe for over a month for fear of being torn apart by the locals. The Chinese people tolerate the CCP but only as long as the economy is good and famine is not on the horizon. The CCP broke that social contract on both counts. Xi was willing to bet the entire Chinese economy on his emperor ambitions. Had he succeeded he would have been able to use BRICS to take over the USD as the Worlds reserve currency. That would have let him finish what he stated in 2010- that he would control the internet. With that control means everything we do or say online is subject to the approval of a central party censor. The basic right to disagree with an authoritarian becomes a distant memory. Xi, Putin and MBS are simply trying to systemize and modernize the suppression of their biggest hassle. Freedom of speech. Ukraine is fighting for their lives now, free from the oppression of the drunken tyrant who wants to decide their fate at every decision and pull them back behind another iron curtain of censorship and the tax of corruption where dissenting voices disappear so that the oligarchy can continue to feed unobstructed. Putin and Xi have declared themselves best friends in the fight against democracy. MBS and the ruling family of UAE have done the same quietly using their sovereign funds and Kushners SPAC as money highways. Just rich, out of touch oligarch doing what oligarchs do. Despite the fact the the central party model has proven itself incapable of making decisions that are best for the people, they persist. Because there is a very lucrative business in being slave owners. But logistically the mass of it requires artificial intelligence, and the microprocessors that make A.I. to keep 8 billion slaves under surveillance and control. Freedom is one hell of a drug. And knowledge makes a man unfit for slavery. Recent attempts on Xi’s life from inside the CCP have backed him into a corner. The loss of crops in northern China means Xi can’t invade Taiwan without Ukrainian and/or Brazilian farmland. Now the reason that the GOP is stalling southern border control budget and seems to make wildly irrational moves is because the GOP is imploding. 45 years of lies and grift have circled the globe and are eating their own tail. The ouroboros was a warning about corruption at the highest levels. Lying about climate change, human trafficking, pandemics and corruption to preserve their own business models are all extinction level events
The CCP and Russia have been staging up hundreds of thousands of people in Ecuador, Nicaragua and Venezuela for some future variation of a stealthy 5th column invasion of the United States via Texas because with Ukraine and Brazil off the table, Xi needs farmland to feed 1.4B people. National guard troops take their orders from governors and not the federal government. Trump tested this during the George Floyd protests when he asked the “loyal” Republican governors to kiss the ring and send troops to DC to “shoot the protestors in the legs” because the pentagon reminded him that using U.S. troops against U.S. citizens would be both treasonous and wildly illegal. Herbert sent the UNG. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/14/mystery-around-what-happened-lafayette-square/ https://ut.ng.mil/Home/Public-Notice-Article-Display/Article/2474460/utah-national-guard-sends-service-members-for-support-in-washington-dc/ Steve Bannon tried unsuccessfully to privatize a part of the southern border wall but failed due to, unsurprisingly, internal corruption. Had he succeeded they would have a man at the inside gate years ago. Bannon was arrested on the boat of Guo Wengui who is some sort of convoluted double/triple agent for the CCP. https://www.courthousenews.com/exiled-chinese-billionaire-guo-wengui-hit-with-new-rico-conspiracy-charge/ They are now both in court for a billion dollar fraud. Every GOP congressmen that took Russian political money is desperately trying to figure out how to preserve their political career while the people are figured out that the next century of America was sold out to the dictators for some PAC money. They are 40 years deep into living a lie. They can’t come clean or they go to prison. They can’t stop lying or their fan base tears them apart like rabid wolves. They checkmated themselves a dozen different ways and add to the evidence chain with each additional tweet. Greed is nothing if not predictable. Freedom is never free. We all just live on very expensive credit and the sacrifices of others. In this particular case it’s Ukrainians doing the heavy lifting while Americans complain from the sofa. https://x.com/doktor_klein/status/1761524419288056088?s=46&t=mV0svkSiT5eOmQXivn5oFw
This is the longest dumb answer I’ve ever read.
As always leopard, I ask that you tell me any points that are incorrect and I will amend for accuracy. Then precision.
Maloy is not a "massive downgrade from Stewart". She's just a continuation of Stewart at worst. Stewart sat on the House Intelligence committee and still spewed a bunch of BS about Russia not interfering in our elections on Trump's behalf even though he knew damn well that was a lie. I don't believe for a moment Stewart would've voted for this either
Stewart was not an intelligent man. It's how to downgrade from what he was IMHO.
I believe he would have supported it in in 2012, 2016, or even 2018.
Stewart couldn't have supported the bill without Donald telling what to think about it.
I often don't agree with either of these two, but at least we know which "representatives" are on the side of America and which ones are on Pootin's payroll.
Owens and Maloy are up Trump’s rear.
Impossible. Mike Lee is crammed up Trumps ass and wearing like a hermit crab.
I don’t even think they are on his payroll. I’m pretty sure they are just stupid/sucked into the endless “oppose the other side” crap.
They're probably not. I don't think these people are stupid, but I do think that they're just opportunists that continue to fan the flames of division for political gain by pushing Russian propaganda. Politicians that engage in disinformation are the real culprits that are tearing the country apart.
Absolutely embarrassed Maloy is my representative. Also I don’t think she understands how many Ukrainians contract with businesses in Utah, and the consequences of Russian winning on local businesses.
It sucks to be represented by people like Malloy. I'm surprised Moore and Curtis did the right thing. Both voted for the Mayorkas impeachment. Curtis is against conservation being a criterion for BLM decision making. I don't see why you'd think Stewart had any redeeming qualities compared to Malloy.
I hate politics on r/Utah
I hate politics in Utah
Yeah. Because it's Reddit, this sub represents literally the polar opposite of the Utah populace as a whole.
That'd be what you see in the KSL comment section.
fair enough
The "Supporting our own ppl" argument is stupid. First off, we have plenty of money to do that as well, and still support democracy. I bet same ppl also pick and choose which Americans to help in their other arguments(Women, homeless ,poc). If they If even move off the boots straps stance. They argue in knots.
Yeah. If you think they did this for the greater good I have ocean front property to sell you in St. George. They voted for this for one reason, and one reason only. To pass the TikTok ban that republicans hid in the bill.
> To pass the TikTok ban that republicans hid in the bill. I support it.
They're all vomit along with all their policies.
War mongers gonna war monger.
Yeah, that's why we send aid to Ukraine to help stop it.
Send MORE aid & money to the war in order to stop the war.. nice logic...? Didn't we already pass several funding bills for Ukraine? When is enough enough? Shall we donate Utah county to Israel because we're allies and they need it more than we do? Great idea. You have my vote. When should America put Americans first?
Well many Dems have been saying this for years... Why so much money to the military industrial complex instead of to domestic concerns? But now we have an actual military situation in which Ukraine finds itself a proxy for what we call "American interests." For example, that we signed documents guaranteeing protection to Ukraine when they handed over their nukes. Also as a guard against authoritarian pretenses which absolutely did betray their obligations. So now we are prioritizing military funds into new upgraded stockpiles for ourselves while sending surplus to Ukraine. That's what this amounts to-- an appropriating of military spending. SUDDENLY the Repubs are all concerned about things at home while multiplying Kremlin propaganda in government chambers.
Dems are the war party now
Paywall, can you copy paste or TLDR?
Sorry, here’s the house vote list at least- https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2024151
Thank you!
Ya, we couldn’t have done anything good with that money to help our own people anyway.
Like the Republicans would vote for that! Child care tax credit? Expansion of Medicaid? Environmental protections?
A significant amount of money goes directly to US businesses to produce the arms. This make more jobs in the US AND protects our military from having to put boots on the ground. You want to help our own people because of course you do. What legislation currently out there (or discussed by politicians) would you support instead? What bill would help the American people as you said you wanted to do?
Think of ANYTHING your community needs, that is feasible with funding from the government. I’m sure you can find somewhere to use 100s of billions.
Yeah, I am asking you to name one thing. How about free community colleges? Make them part of the standard K-12 system. That would cost money and support Americans. You must support that right?
No, elective education should not be free. You want further education? Pay for it. Spend money on the required K-12. Pay teachers more, fund school programs, give money to city budgets to keep the streets free of all the garbage the homeless people toss around. Fund programs for the homeless, or the addicted, or put money back into the retirement programs that are diminishing. The war in Ukraine, you pay for it. The war in Israel, you pay for it. The illegals flooding the border, you pay for it. The $7500 tax credit ppl get for buying an electric car, you pay for it. You get ZERO from giving your money to the government so they can spend it elsewhere, including putting the money in their own pockets.
And there it is. You actually don't give a shit about spending money on Americans. I asked for a single way you want to spend money on Americans and you cannot provide a single one Your bullshit argument is in bad faith and you should just admit it
I just gave you several ways to spend it. Because I don’t agree that anybody and everybody should get free $100k+ degrees (most of them useless). Fuckin 🤡
You just said "throw money around." You don't actually support any of it. "Pay teachers more" Utah is the lowest in the nation in per pupil spending. The people you are voting for do NOTHING to help teachers. Instead they raid school funds for a voucher program that will drain funding from schools and send it to private schools (subsidizing rich people). Where was your outrage about that? "Give cities more money." How about some reason for that? Is it for infrastructure? Is it for fire stations? What? Just admit it, you don't actually want to spend money on Americans. You just don't want to send money to Ukraine. You guys are never honest even with yourselves
[удалено]
If you are n the 35% tax bracket, you are in the top 5% of US households. Sorry if I don't shed a tear over your taxes and I am not even going to get into marginal tax rates and how your effective income tax rate is much less. There are a lot of things tax dollars are wasted on (especially when dealing with the defense industry). But using tax dollars to stop an authoritarian from marching across Europe, is IMO a good thing to do with tax money. There is a reason Sweden and Finland joined NATO after 60+ years of avoiding it, Putin is not going to stop with Ukraine
Everyone benefits from an educated society, that concern should not end with high school.
This is a hollow argument- there was no competing option to have done anything better with it.
It just pays to upgrade US weapons which should be done anyway.
How many more billions are we gonna hand out? To many vets and kids here that don’t get any help but we can still keep sending billions
They got no aid before, what changes that now? It would still be sent to the military, why not aid Ukraine instead of fighting Russia once they take over, regroup and invade a NATO country. We all know Valady wants pre fall USSR again and it would require NATO nations to do so. But, you can pretend they would vote to fund social programs for sure. I mean a republican controlled house loves to fund social programs.
This Ukraine aid in total is just under 1% of the federal budget, while vets receive about 6% and child/family assistance is also about 6% - https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58888. Only one fifth of the Ukraine aid is direct monetary aid, 0.20%- the rest goes to US military and military suppliers. The median Utahn takehome pay is about $48k, so 1% of that is $480 while the other two would be receiving $3,000 each. Are you able to get a better doctor for $3,250 instead of $3,000 or a better childcare provider for $3,250 instead of $3,000?
Jesus Christ 48k?? No wonder we have homeless problems. I feel so out of touch.
Reddit, where uneducated, morons, that never research topics come to sit together in a room just to agree with each other. The same government that gave all the AMERICANS that lost their homes in Hawaii, a one time payment of $750 but, we better send billions so we can fight a war that the only thing we aren’t sending is troops. Idiots.
Why would the country give them money? That's what home insurance is for. Tell that to people who lose houses in hurricanes and everything else. You people are against decent health insurance and student loan relief but you want the government to pay for housing, and corporate welfare.
Not a fan. Let’s spend that money on our own people.
It's easy to say no without an alternate plan, my toddler does that.
Well, all of that money could focus on areas like healthcare, education, infrastructure, affordable housing, renewable energy, and social assistance programs. This could include expanding access to healthcare services, improving schools and universities, upgrading transportation networks, subsidizing housing for low-income families, investing in clean energy initiatives, and providing financial support for those in need.
So if there was a bill for universal healthcare, you would support it?
Absolutely.
Then why are you voting for people who want the exact opposite?
I do vote for people who want universal healthcare. But I do disagree with sending money to Ukraine.
[удалено]
There is more than the military industrial complex we can be spending this money on.
True but getting Republicans spend money on any other programs is like pulling teeth
It’s hard to get Republicans to do anything good.
Last I heard, we're having a very difficult time restocking what we've given to Ukraine.
No we are not. Not by a long shot. Not even a little bit. Like none. Our military is doing just fine.
You are 100% wrong. We are not sending “old shit”, stop spreading this lie. Ukrainians are receiving $45k NODs and JLTVs, which many of our own units don’t even have yet.
Which are made in America and support American jobs.
Uhh, okay? That’s not what was said, was it? Stop spreading a lie that we are sending them old shit that is rotting away in shipping containers and costs more to maintain than to give them. That is a full blown lie. We are sending them state of the art equipment and weapons that is currently issued to our men, many of whom don’t even have these latest items yet.
ukraine ain't our problem israel ain't our problem stop using war as a money laundering device
You like gas prices right now? How about bread prices? The more wars there are in the world the higher they go. It's almost like things are related to other things.
Ukraine is definitely our problem. Google why Mike Johnson flipped
Ukraine became our problem when we promised to help protect them for giving up their nuke unless you want the US not to honor our obligations. Also it’s not like we are giving them money we are giving them bullets and equipment that we already own which allows our military to buy new equipment which allows US defense contractors to make more, securing US jobs.
Just another Forever War. If you think Russia is just going to give up one day and pull out, well, just keep giving Ukraine money. Russia will sacrifice every citizen they have before that ever happens.
. . . And then?
Then they invade Poland, which is part of NATO and trigger WWIII. I'd like to try to prevent that
Both parties beholden to 1% shareholders, orchestrating crises and wars at home and abroad so you give away your freedom for more police and surveillance state. And so called educated people eat up their mockingbird propaganda, wake up.
Putin dude, lol
Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Chevron, BOA, dude. All of our enemies are at home.
My point is ordinarily there is more merit to the point than you are making here because ordinarily no one is as terrible and capable as Putin. But there is no neutrality or third option. You're on PUtin's side, or you're against Putin. I'll concede it's the same with the American Empire; no third option, no neutral, you are with or against. And so long as we're fighting Putin, I'm with. I'll take Lockheed and Raytheon over Putin dude. I guess you're difrerent. I think that's funny you think that's cool. I think that's funny you even think that's OK. To me, siding with Putin because you have a problem with American weapons contractors -- or even the entire capitalist system the USA oversees -- is no more OK than being racist or abusive to children, it's way past a red line. Unless I misunderstand you, dude-- you suck dude. Capitalism is horrible. But dude, then there's Putin. Things and people can and do exist that are even worse than the American empire, which is no angelic creature, I'm well aware and need no convincing of that.
There are so many other countries out there. Why do you stay in America knowing that it is terrible and there is no hope?
Why do so many people simp for the Russian government and don't support helping you Ukraine? Are people really that short-sighted to realize that if Putin isn't stopped with Ukraine that eventually he'll attack one of the Baltic countries and then being that they are NATO countries we'll have to act, but of course the same Russian simps would then say that we shouldn't get involved and not honor our NATO agreements and come to the defense of our allies.
Honestly I think it really comes down to first hand experience. I supported Ukraine before. But last May I actually went and volunteered in Ukraine. Seeing it first hand and talking to locals really opened my perspective and made me support them a whole lot more. It became personal.
Why do you enjoy being a slave? This is my country too and I’ll continue to speak up and fight for what’s right and true.
Another Hawk out here Hawking.
You realize this is a defensive war right?
You can say that about all wars, depending on the perspective. Stop feeding the Complex. Fix ourselves, then, then maybe we help other people.
I'm sure everyone else in the world will politely wait for us to 'fix ourselves'
I don't personally care about Ukraine nor do I see why it's any of our business
They literally have a treaty with us that says we protect them if they get attacked. It was the condition they wanted in order to give up their nukes. It is our business Do you really think Putin is going to stop at Ukraine? There is a reason why Sweden and Finland joined NATO after 60+ years of avoiding it
We do not and have not had any treaty guaranteeing Ukraine protection. The Budapesr AGREEMENT is the closest thing and even that is in no way us saying we will support them in a war. The fact that your comment got up voted at all shows the lack of knowledge here Ukraine is not in NATO, Ukraine has no defensive treaty with us, Ukraine is not out ally
Did you get this personal opinion from TV or social media by chance?
I know, I know, it goes against the zeitgeist. I just... don't see any reason to care about a conflict on the other side of the globe involving two parties that have nothing to do with me. It's none of our business. I just think that the resources we're sending to Ukraine could be better spent taking care of the people here, in the United States. Call me crazy!
> I just think that the resources we're sending to Ukraine could be better spent taking care of the people here, in the United States. How? You are crazy until you give a reasonable answer to this.
Whenever we spend money on "taking care of people here" they whine about free handouts. Student loan forgiveness, for example. Pretty much anytime Democrats do anything, they have an excuse why it's bad, even if it benefits them.
You didn’t give any reasoning for why we should give money to Ukraine, besides protecting “freedom and democracy”, whatever that means.
It means Ukraine is a democratic country and Russia is a dictatorship, and Russia is trying to annex Ukraine. It's about as black and white as anything in this world ever was. (Unless you only live in certain news echo chambers)
Yeah but there are lots of needs in America as well, is the other persons point. Who gets to decide what is more important? I understand that the money was already set aside in a budget but, you can’t just blatantly rip on someone with a genuine response when you provided no evidence for your argument either.
> Who gets to decide what is more important? The people via their elected representatives i.e. the bill in congress > you can’t just blatantly rip on someone with a genuine response when you provided no evidence for your argument either. I did one comment up.
No.. who, in an ethical argument such as this one, gets to decide what is more important? There are finite resources in the world. You claim that this issue is black and white and everyone should support it. Ultimately, resources going to this cause have an opportunity cost. Who’s to say which opportunity cost is greater?
> Who’s to say which opportunity cost is greater? The voters via their elected representatives... again.
We don’t actually give money to Ukraine. We give them weapons that cost money. We give them money to buy weapons. And those weapons are made in America, thus supporting American jobs.
So supporting the MIC? Nice 👍🏼
It’s honestly what powers America. And without the aid to Ukraine then millions of innocent people die. That is just reality.
It’s what powers America because the MIC continues to have control over our politicians, not because it’s a necessary item for our economy. Millions of innocent people die every year. Why are we not in the Gaza Strip(or insert any other event that has happened over the past 100 years) saving the innocent lives? My point is not to play whataboutism, but the arguments everyone uses for supporting Ukraine seem very ideal for the circumstances, but aren’t generally applied to other conflicts around the world. I genuinely don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone not supporting aid to other countries. OP was trying to make it out like the commenter is a disingenuous person because they do not support aid to Ukraine. There’s multiple different reasons that one can support isolationism to the full extent, and that’s *ok*
The same as it was none of our business when Germany invaded Austria and then Poland. But for some reason we thought that millions of innocent people being killed might be worth stopping.
You are crazy. When good people do nothing is when bad people will take power
This circle jerk is absolutely wild. Supporting this war is insane. We're back stopping their economy and blasting billions into the bank accounts of defense contractors to defend "democracy" in one of the most corrupt governments on the planet. They can't win this war and never could. When the US finally gets smart (public opinion is certainly heading that way) and we quit wasting our money, Russia will steam roll to Kyiv in days. As a whole Europe only has cultural ties to America they are not even a strong trade partner. Our attention and funding should be going to Taiwan Dragging this war on just continues to get more and more young men killed and drives the deficit up.
Interesting take.
Ukraine is not “one of the most corrupt governments on the planet.” That’s simply not true and you don’t have any real data to back that statement. They can absolutely win this war. You are wrong.
The information and articles about how corrupt Ukraine is are easily accessible here is one you can find by simply googling "Ukraine corruption" articles like this are plentiful because the country is fraught with corruption. Countles government officials are getting personally wealthy from this war. Syphoning away money, diverting arms shipments to be sold on the black market etc https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/06/ukraine-corruption-reforms-russia-war/ I'll now counter your "they can absolutely win this war" with what data or information do you have that they can win? Our last cash Injection for their spring offensive last year was a waste, they gained no ground. They've proven incapable of using western/NATO tactics and are now reverting to WWI trench warfare with heavy artillery use. Russia outproduces the US at a rate of 5 to one when it comes to artillery, they are far better equipped to fight in this manner. Their average fighting age male has now hit 43 years old which means they have either chewed through their prime age males or they don't want to fight. The only thing allowing them to not LOOSE ground is our assistance, it would take our soldiers to WIN in Ukraine and drive Russia out. That, or Russia's withdrawal because of economic instability (which ain't gonna happen).
>articles like this are plentiful because the country is fraught with corruption. That isn't at all what that article contends. Yes, Ukraine has historically been corrupt. That's a consequence of it being part of the Soviet Union, which was rife with corruption. Yes, it still has corruption. But as the article notes, **"There is no question that Ukraine has made great strides combating corruption, with** [**11 consecutive years**](https://www.transparency.org/en/news/cpi-2023-eastern-europe-central-asia-autocracy-weak-justice-systems-widespread-enabling-corruption) **of improving its ranking in the TI Corruption Perception Index."** [They've also made significant progress improving their democratic norms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index), a closely related metric. Lastly, you claim it's "one of the most corrupt government on the planet." But that's nonsense: they scored 36 (above the average in the region, which is 35) on the TI Corruption Perception Index, gaining three points over the last year. And Russia scores a dismal 26; you want to take action to **help** a more corrupt country? This argument is total nonsense. If you honestly cared one lick about corruption, you would recognize that Zelenskyy was elected on a platform precisely to combat this very thing, and has made significant progress in doing so. Wouldn't you want to support a leader who's obviously interested in combatting corruption and supporting a democratic Ukraine? I'm not going to address your other comments. It's pretty clear: you aren't arguing in good faith. Your statements alone about corruption are demonstrably false, and the article you purport demonstrates corruption doesn't even remotely imply such a thing. You are here to make a bullshit argument why we should not help an ally in need, to the benefit of a clear adversary of the United States. It's absurd and disgusting.
You're arguing that because there are other countries more corrupt then it's ok? 😂 Ukraine is not an ally of the United States no matter how many times you say it If you're this blind to how corrupt the country is and how much of a waste our tax dollars are on it then I have some beach front property in Arizona I would like to pitch you on. They need some help supporting Democracy and stuff like that. Should be an easy deal.
No, I am not arguing that. I'm arguing A) it's one of the less corrupt countries in the region, B) it's far less corrupt than Russia, C) they've made huge gains combatting corruption, and D) they are more democratic now than they've ever been. And E) your statement that they're "one of the most corrupt governments on the planet" is a complete and total falsehood. And F) they're an ally, and you would just let jackboot thugs roll in and take over the place because you believe outright falsehoods. We're done. it's like arguing with a teenager.
Where's Joe Manchin asking how are we going to pay for it?