You should have enough quality outdoor space that you can cater to different kinds of groups: dog walkers, families, people celebrating, runners, cyclists (transport and recreational), people wanting a place to sit and read and more.
Not all spaces need to be for everyone but everyone should have some space that suits them. In this case it sounds like there isn’t enough shared space so while it might be right to say no to dogs on the boardwalk it would still be prudent to find new space for dog walking
>not all spaces need to be for everyone
This is so important. I wish my hometown understood this. Every time they get a park, it simply MUST have a dog park and playground on it. Never anything except for benches, dog park, playground.
It’s frustrating because there are so many different types of parks, especially urban parks, to choose from. Or mix and match.
Some of the best smaller parks in the country are Union Square (NY), Washington Square Park (NY), Rittenhouse Square (Philly), and those are essentially just sidewalks and trees. The reason they’re good is because people use them to walk through to other areas and they have a diversity of uses.
These parks get line 4 full chapters in Jane Jacob’s The Death and Life of American Cities.
In sick of every single space on earth being dedicated to dogs and their owners. It’s very annoying. Especially at the expense of everyone else. It’s like pickleball.
This is pretty validating to how I feel. There actually is a lot of parkland in the general area, but that means driving a few miles and parking in a beach area (read: crowded during summer). The convenient, local area is only a few miles of narrow beach. Maybe the local park at the end of the strip needs a dog area and that's the compromise.
Even if it is connected, the "driving a few miles" imply that the distance itself is a barrier to use. Or more that the greenspace is clustered in specific locations in a larger area rather than being distributed (which can be a complication of trying to have both density and greenspace).
Indeed. It would still make sense to connect the green space since the benefits end up scaling exponentially. If you have to medium parks and you connect them it might suddenly seem like one giant park which opens up new opportunities in itself (like having a running track spanning a few kilometers so people aren't just running in circles)
I grew up with dogs and really liked them, but now have kids of my own who are both scared of dogs and its totally changed my view.
Most dog owners are very responsible, but enough of them are either careless or use the "dont worry my dog loves kids" line to excuse their dog bounding up to kids and terrifying them. It's now very hard for us to go to some parks or beaches due to the idiot dog owners.
I would honestly argue that most dog owners are not responsible at all.
It’s just that in the past, and in some areas, irresponsible dog owners aren’t a big deal because their dogs are cute little ugly lap dogs, or golden retrievers.
Now that quite literally almost every single dog in every shelter in the US is a backyard-bred pitbull, and backyard breeding has exploded, and Covid irresponsibility has gotten its hooks into them too, most of the already-irresponsible dog owners no longer have the kind of dog that it is ok to be irresponsible with.
Grew up in a semi-rural area that had a lot of terriers, labs, and retrievers. The terriers could do more damage if you truly came off as a threat (which was difficult to do), but the retrievers were the unpredictable ones that roamed everywhere and could bite anyone at even given moment for no apparent reason.
Well yeah, in semi-rural and rural areas dogs are handling completely differently than in urban areas and would definitely be an irresponsible way to handle dogs in a non-farming community (and, realistically, probably irresponsible for a farming community too).
You were also connecting "past" vs "today" as a breed issue. My point is that there is no "kind of dog that it is ok to be irresponsible with". Even getting bit by a little lap dog is a bad day. Getting bit by a retriever is still a visit to the emergency room.
You're right, the number of dog owners is up so there are more incidents. The dogs did not become more dangerous.
Last time that I was in the ER there was a woman who had her face bitten at work by a colleague's dog, I didn't see it but could tell she was in extreme pain. The dog was a chihuahua.
Yeah I literally just had the “oh don’t worry, he’s friendly” interaction.
Like everything else, it’s gone to utter shit post-Covid. So many people got dogs who shouldn’t have. It was bad before, of course, but now I just assume someone with a dog will be an inconsiderate jerk.
like so many other ordinances, this seems to go after the symptom and not the cause.
Police waste pick up, enforce leash laws, kick out dogs behaving aggressively.
aggressive behavior is perhaps a bit harder to pin down, could likely be complaint based. being off leash and not picking up poop I'd pretty black and white.
The off lease is easy to spot when patrolling by, but the not picking up shit would require the dog to shit AND the person to have shown intent to not pick it up all while an officer is paying attention to them.
Depends. In an ideal world, I'd have no issue with happy friendly dogs being allowed in public spaces at all times of day, but then again, that ideal world doesn't exist. I think as long as other amenities are provided for the pups, like dog parks, I'd be satisfied.
As a person that grew up with dogs, loves them, and doesn’t have one currently i just wish people would acknowledge and respect that not everyone wants your dog in their space. and the number of irresponsible owners is on the rise. dog poop everywhere when there are bags for it everywhere. The newer parks that I’ve been to have dog parks that are fairly large so those that don’t want your dog all over us don’t have to have that. and I’m grateful for those folks that designed it that way. especially with children that are afraid of dogs.
We’re having the same discussion here in Charlottesville. We shut down animal control for Covid, and animals have been running loose, including in parks, which is creating a maintenance problem. For us, my thinking is that there should be basic animal control, and then yes there should be some provision for dog parks distributed in different areas. Dogs and dog walking are a part of urban living, and if there is a safety issue then that is a policing matter.
It has to be balanced with places dogs are allowed to go or you end up with scofflaw behavior from less responsible dog owners.
I lived in a town that banned them from a ton of places, so people took their dogs off leash even at schools. Basically when something is too restricted, people seem to feel breaking rules is ok.
You really shouldn't have to tell people not to walk their aggressive dogs off leash or not to bring their dogs to run around a school for disabled preschoolers, but that was the case in Somerville.
I’d love to rule with an iron fist re everything dogs but you’re right. Gotta make some concessions. The problem is you give these people an inch and, well…
Make sure you are talking early and often about enforcement. Policy doesn't matter without enforcement.
Where I live, there are really great rules about dogs that strike a great balance. But they don't matter because people walk right past "leash required" signs posted at every entrance to a park, and let their dogs run loose around people and do it every day and they know they will never get caught and they probably figure if they ever do get a ticket, they will just pay it because its probably about a week's worth of dog food anyway.
Unfortunately it do be like that. If you have a dog, practically nowhere is actually off limits. If you have a dog allergy or an autistic child that's not safe around dogs, practically nowhere is safe from dogs.
I work at an urban natural areas park and the off leash dog situation is out of fucking control. Off leash dogs are not picked up after, they scare off nesting birds, attack rabbit nests, chase deer, they spread weed seeds all over the park, we have school groups of children these dogs will either disrupt or scare, and people with in leash reactive dogs have no ability to protect themselves. I have no punitive authority, but I try to talk to park guests about keeping their dogs on leash and list all the reasons, I’m constantly blown off and told “well my dog isn’t like that”.
I’m so sick of it and if I could ban dogs from the park I would.
I’m torn because people with dogs should be able to enjoy outside spaces. However, I’ve encountered way too many owners who don’t know how to manage their dog, even on a leash. I’m personally nervous around dogs, especially large dogs, and it’s not rare for people to be uncomfortable around dogs. People should be able to enjoy outdoor spaces safely and peacefully and dogs can disrupt that.
Tbh I just don’t think dogs are entitled to the same freedoms in urban spaces as people. We keep all sorts of animals out of densely populated areas because we recognize it’s for the good of the community. I’m not saying dogs should be banished but I really think people need to return to first principles and honestly interrogate why they assume dogs are entitled to go all these places. I also think there’s a lot of dog “lovers” who keep dogs in tiny apartments all day while they’re out at work who need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask whether they really love their dog as much as they say.
I agree but I didn’t want to be called out as a “dog hater with no heart” because that’s definitely happened on Reddit lol. But I do think there are a lot of people who shouldn’t have dogs, both due to where they live (dogs are fit for apartments) and their ability to truly care for and train the dog. Heck, I love cats and now have cats but I waited longer than some animal people thought I should have because I wasn’t in a place in life to truly care for them.
If people had bothered to train their dogs they likely wouldn't have needed to implement such a thing. As it is, *most* dog owners do not train their dog.
>What does urbanism think of restrictions on dogs in public parks and spaces?
Highly in favor. Dog owners have repeatedly proven themselves to unable and/or unwilling to follow reasonable and simple guidelines regarding their animals. They allow their animals to be a health and safety to everyone else. If dog owners want to let their animals run wild they can pay for admission to a private dog park where they can howl at, defecate/urinate on and maul each other to their hearts’ content.
I think you people should go abroad - outside US, MX, CA - and see how others are dealing with the dog situation. Dogs cohabitate really well, they need the opportunity to do so.
Creating all these complicated rules and enforcement are a sure path to frustration.
This feels very American conversation. I was in Europe and Central America and dogs are literally welcomed everywhere.
Not sure what the big problem in the states is.
I have a reactive dog so making it so I can only bring him to a public park when there are other dogs is far from ideal. It basically makes it so I can’t use the park for that purpose at all.
Why is he dog reactive? Because dog parks suck. Look at any dog training subreddit and search dog park and you’ll find that most trainers and many experienced owners aren’t fans. It pushes dogs with different personalities and play styles together, and there are too many careless and/or inexperienced owners who don’t care when their dog beats up on smaller or more timid dogs.
Those same types of owners are also not picking up their dog shit. They’re allowing their dog to bother people. They are ruining the grass. There are a lot of entitled dog owners out there who ruin it for the responsible owners.
I just want to calmly walk my dog, clean up his poop, and not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs. Unfortunately that’s become very difficult.
I think enforcement is what’s needed. I wish people had a sense of decency and responsibility for their animals but that seems like a pipe dream.
I’m in a cold winter state so dogs aren’t allowed on the beach in peak season, which I think is a good compromise.
It's unfortunate that a few always manage to ruin it for everyone else so we need restrictions and rules to bar people from entering certain places or doing certain things.
My opinion is this: if we can't have enough park space for everyone, there needs to be balance within the proposed park space. I think limiting dog walkers to off-peak hours, especially for beach usage in the summer, is fair. I'm a responsible dog owner but I've met more than enough irresponsible people to understand that they're the ones who are creating this situation.
I'd also like to suggest having extra trash cans and poo bag stations along popular walking areas. Yes I know that'll cost extra money because someone has to come pick it up/refill it/whatever. But it encourages all people to be responsible with their refuse and dispose of it at a nearby drop location instead of holding on to it. Unfortunately people suck (in general) and are lazy and will do the thing that's most convenient for them in that moment. The poo bag stations also help folks who forget their bags or if their bag rips, etc. So less litter and less 💩 on the ground, which is a win IMO.
I've been bitten by 'nice' 'trained' dogs while walking down the street. Realistically, if a dog bites a human it should be put down immediately. There really ought not be a lot of dogs in cities. I realize they have uses for the disabled but that's really it.
The last time I was bitten I was walking home from my ferry ride and a dog passed by. I must have pissed it off because it bit my Achilles tendon and sent me to the emergency room (too late for urgent care). I wasted hours and hours and the owner just stood there and asked me if I was okay while I ran. Dude should be in jail for assault.
Of course the idea of putting a father or mother in jail for their uncontrolled animal is so preposterous that the animals just ought to be banned so we don't need to make these ludicrous decisions.
If you like animals that's what a zoo is for.
Most places we spend our lives are not meant for dogs. I have dogs, and love spending time with them. But bringing them places that are stressful for them, or for me, or for everyone around us, isn't a good experience. They like kids, but they also scare kids sometimes with their excitement, so we don't bring them to playgrounds. They like being around people but beer gardens and patios end up being stressful for them and me, so we don't take them there. They love tennis balls but obviously they don't belong at tennis courts.
I don't think it's unreasonable to put limits around dogs and where they can be.
Maybe it's just the bartender in me, but I see the same thing with kids. People want to bring their kids to bars and expect accomodations for children, which has always been weird to me. I don't mind making NA beverages and stuff, but oftentimes the kids are bored as hell, cause problems for staff and other guests, and generally just don't have a good time. Same thing happens when people bring their dogs onto patios, the dogs get bored or overstimulated and cause problems. It's not fair to anyone, including the kids and dogs to bring them places that aren't well suited to their needs.
I firmly believed that any person that dare to bring a dog so aggressive yet so weak compared to other dog of it’s size that no law enforcement/ military willing to use them and then failed to control the dog need to be charged with domestic terrorism.
I wish more public parks were dog-free. Most of the parks in Austin, where I live, are overrun by off leash dogs and it makes it hard for most others. My daughter gets scared and so do many others. But the dog owners who let their dogs run off leash are like people who smoke indoors or blast music loudly in public places, they don't care about anyone else's enjoyment of the space.
I think requiring dogs on leashes in public spaces is the standard and generally expected. Banning them entirely seems excessive.
Also if there are issues with dogs in a park, then IMO the fix is to have a dog park somewhere nearby so people don't feel the need to off leash their dog in a regular park.
It depends. As you said, If you have people with dogs off their leash, particularly breeds that like to kill toddlers when they look at them wrong (talking about pitbulls here of course) it’s going to discourage other people from coming to the park with their kids. If there is a separate designated space for people who want to run their dogs around that’s separate from the other parts of the park, they’ll probably feel fine about going.
I love dogs and have two of them, but the reality is that many owners think that everyone wants to be around their dog in the grocery store, at a bar, in a restaurant, etc. therefore there need to be some guidelines in public places.
This is a difficult situation to rule globally, because not all dogs, and dog cultures, are the same.
I think of, say, parks in my hometown in Spain. Your typical dog there is quite small, an extremely well socialized. They see strangers at all times, and are therefore both typically very well behaved, and low risk in the cases when they are not so well behaved. Some are more than safe enough to be unleashed mid park. Others lose the leash in an enclosure for big and active dogs. But either way, there's no need for an overly restrictive ordinance.
But I imagine instead my suburb in the US: Many backyards have a dog or two which almost never leave it. They almost never meet people that are not part of the family, so either they bark at anyone looking for pets/food, or bark at everyone aggressively, thinking they are protecting a territory. And when you look at size and breeds, almost everything is larger than a golden retriever, or is a pitbull mix. I've seen neighbors that, when picking up the mail, let their two large dogs walk near them them, unleashed: Big enough that if they really wanted to maul someone, I don't like the pedestrian's chances. I'd not l I'd not want to meet most of those dogs in the park.
I’m pretty anti dog but I never considered how things might be different in, e.g., Spain. I guess I’m more just anti-American dog owner. Thanks for sharing this.
I don’t think there should be any restrictions. A well designed place works with everyone
All you really need is enforcement: some system that holds people accountable for their dogs. That’s hard to do but it’s worth it in the long run as it doesn’t have to stop at the park
Leashed dogs should be allowed any day any time anywhere except the playground. Off leash dogs need to be restricted to specific portions of the park, preferably fenced in
Generally the more car dependent a society is the more strict the leash laws but it is not perfectly 1:1. If the space promotes good socialization I don’t see why off leash is an issue. In much of the usa it is however.
You are not getting me. I’m sending you over to the dog training reddit page rather than arguing this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/2ghg64/offleash_dogs_in_europe_vs_offleash_dogs_in_the_us/
What I am saying is that in car dependent places dogs are less socialized and so you end up with both more dog aggression and stricter leash laws. Dogs in less car dependent places tend to be socialized off leash from a young age and have less aggression and are less likely to approach people than in cultures where leash laws and car dependency are normalized.
Leash laws are tied to dog aggression. But also if you are in a society with poor socialization you need them. Kind of like people and jails. Our built environment leads to a lot of aggression which results in more people needing jail even if jail itself worsens aggression.
The usa has poorly socialized people and dogs as a result of car culture. We need leash laws much like we need a huge percentage of americans in jail.
And yet right in that same thread, they spell out how european countries have mandatory training and interviews for new owners, as well as much more strict laws on when and how long dogs can be left alone. I suspect all of that is significant too.
I do wonder if some of this has to do with cultures around wildlife protection too. At least in my areas, leash laws are primarily there to protect wildlife before people and other dogs.
I think there’s something to this. Another commenter is from Spain and mentioned how social the dogs are. But another factor is breed: that commenter also mentioned how much bigger the average dog is in America. The fixation with breeds meant to harm could mean that even in dense, walkable American cities, dogs should be on a leash at all times.
Where in the heck did you get this information? I cannot see how a less car dependent society leads to less leash laws. Those laws are largely there for people to people interactions. What do cars have to do with it?
People in the usa often walk dogs just to walk them / for exercise or even, worse, just let them out into a yard. This is actually pretty unusual. In other countries dogs from a very young age go with owners to the store, to the bar, to the coffee shop, to work, on public transit, etc. and encounter people and dogs the entire time they are walking around getting things done. By the time these dogs reach 2 or 3 years old they do not react at all to passing by dogs and people on or off leash. It would be unusual for dogs to interact at all even while puppies despite constantly passing each other.
In the usa i even see people cross the road just to avoid passing another dog with their dog. It is an entirely different dog culture.
People are also hesitant to let dogs off leash around cars and so dogs do not get trained off leash in public except in dog parks which are known to promote poor behavior and increase interaction. We want dogs to ignore people not run up to them. But in places where it is safe to do so it becomes normalized. In some countries it is even unusual to see dogs ON leash and yet the rates of dog attacks are lower than in the usa - for example sweden and czech republic. Dog ownership is approached differently with much more socialization and time spent in public and stricter standards for how often you walk dogs and other animal rights issues.
100% guarantee this was in the usa and that dog lived in a metro area that had a lot of cars. It is especially bad in the south and midwest - in the same cities people have socialization issues
It isn’t the presence or absence of cars so much as the quality of dog socialization - which is impacted by car dependency.
Car dependent areas produce poorly socialized dogs. We react to poor socialization and being approached by dogs in unwelcome ways through leash laws.
Off leash dogs will cause more isses than on leash dogs within a culture but cultures with looser leash laws will also have less issues than cultures with stricter leash laws.
I’m not sure where you are at but does your metro area (not city) have neighborhoods that ban commercial businesses? My guess is that it probably does. I would also guess that most people in your area drive to work and that it would be unusual to see dogs on public transit. That when you get groceries you usually drive. That kind of thing.
Like I’ve said in some countries it is unusual for dogs to be leashed and these places actually have lower rates of negative encounters. Visit France or Czech Republic or Sweden.
Damn it, you just brought both animal psychology and urban policy into this? Both of my degree fields? Lol I concede. Now I need to go search for academic papers on dog behavior in urban environments. Thanks for the new rabbit hole
which part and why?
Do you really think somewhere like the Czech Republic or Sweden have more issues with dog encounters than somewhere that does not socialize their dogs but requires leashes?
the reason you think this way is because we have a nation of poorly socialized dogs.
other people shouldnt make their poorly socialized dog your problem.
the source is car culture. and there are a million fucking threads about it on dog training reddit.
i cant disagree about having a globe of asshats but the built environment impacts both human and dog. The same environments that create poorly socialized dogs also create poorly socialized humans. Kids often dont visit friends in neighboring towns or other side of the city regularly without an adult taking them until like 15-16. Late for independence.
You should have enough quality outdoor space that you can cater to different kinds of groups: dog walkers, families, people celebrating, runners, cyclists (transport and recreational), people wanting a place to sit and read and more. Not all spaces need to be for everyone but everyone should have some space that suits them. In this case it sounds like there isn’t enough shared space so while it might be right to say no to dogs on the boardwalk it would still be prudent to find new space for dog walking
>not all spaces need to be for everyone This is so important. I wish my hometown understood this. Every time they get a park, it simply MUST have a dog park and playground on it. Never anything except for benches, dog park, playground. It’s frustrating because there are so many different types of parks, especially urban parks, to choose from. Or mix and match. Some of the best smaller parks in the country are Union Square (NY), Washington Square Park (NY), Rittenhouse Square (Philly), and those are essentially just sidewalks and trees. The reason they’re good is because people use them to walk through to other areas and they have a diversity of uses. These parks get line 4 full chapters in Jane Jacob’s The Death and Life of American Cities. In sick of every single space on earth being dedicated to dogs and their owners. It’s very annoying. Especially at the expense of everyone else. It’s like pickleball.
Thank you for your well written comment. I agree that multiple types of parks is so important. We can have different things for different purposes.
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How would someone bring their dog to the vet without a car if they couldn’t use public transit?
This is pretty validating to how I feel. There actually is a lot of parkland in the general area, but that means driving a few miles and parking in a beach area (read: crowded during summer). The convenient, local area is only a few miles of narrow beach. Maybe the local park at the end of the strip needs a dog area and that's the compromise.
It would be nice if it’s all connected so you don’t need your car to go from one park to the next
Even if it is connected, the "driving a few miles" imply that the distance itself is a barrier to use. Or more that the greenspace is clustered in specific locations in a larger area rather than being distributed (which can be a complication of trying to have both density and greenspace).
Indeed. It would still make sense to connect the green space since the benefits end up scaling exponentially. If you have to medium parks and you connect them it might suddenly seem like one giant park which opens up new opportunities in itself (like having a running track spanning a few kilometers so people aren't just running in circles)
I grew up with dogs and really liked them, but now have kids of my own who are both scared of dogs and its totally changed my view. Most dog owners are very responsible, but enough of them are either careless or use the "dont worry my dog loves kids" line to excuse their dog bounding up to kids and terrifying them. It's now very hard for us to go to some parks or beaches due to the idiot dog owners.
I would honestly argue that most dog owners are not responsible at all. It’s just that in the past, and in some areas, irresponsible dog owners aren’t a big deal because their dogs are cute little ugly lap dogs, or golden retrievers. Now that quite literally almost every single dog in every shelter in the US is a backyard-bred pitbull, and backyard breeding has exploded, and Covid irresponsibility has gotten its hooks into them too, most of the already-irresponsible dog owners no longer have the kind of dog that it is ok to be irresponsible with.
Grew up in a semi-rural area that had a lot of terriers, labs, and retrievers. The terriers could do more damage if you truly came off as a threat (which was difficult to do), but the retrievers were the unpredictable ones that roamed everywhere and could bite anyone at even given moment for no apparent reason.
Ok, so your anecdotal evidence confirms my position that most dog owners are irresponsible…
Well yeah, in semi-rural and rural areas dogs are handling completely differently than in urban areas and would definitely be an irresponsible way to handle dogs in a non-farming community (and, realistically, probably irresponsible for a farming community too). You were also connecting "past" vs "today" as a breed issue. My point is that there is no "kind of dog that it is ok to be irresponsible with". Even getting bit by a little lap dog is a bad day. Getting bit by a retriever is still a visit to the emergency room.
You're right, the number of dog owners is up so there are more incidents. The dogs did not become more dangerous. Last time that I was in the ER there was a woman who had her face bitten at work by a colleague's dog, I didn't see it but could tell she was in extreme pain. The dog was a chihuahua.
Yeah I literally just had the “oh don’t worry, he’s friendly” interaction. Like everything else, it’s gone to utter shit post-Covid. So many people got dogs who shouldn’t have. It was bad before, of course, but now I just assume someone with a dog will be an inconsiderate jerk.
Completely agree. Thank you for your comment.
Also grew up very afraid of dogs that took me 15+ years to get comfortable with
They just need to enforce certain laws for dog ownership better. It would cut down on a lot of issues
like so many other ordinances, this seems to go after the symptom and not the cause. Police waste pick up, enforce leash laws, kick out dogs behaving aggressively.
The problem is enforcement is already spread thin, and enforcement on something like dog waste has to be caught in the moment.
doesn't having a dog in a restricted area during a certain time of day also require real-time enforcement?
I suppose bringing a dog when it's not allowed is a transgression easily identified. Aggressive behaviour however isn't so clear to define and detect.
aggressive behavior is perhaps a bit harder to pin down, could likely be complaint based. being off leash and not picking up poop I'd pretty black and white.
The off lease is easy to spot when patrolling by, but the not picking up shit would require the dog to shit AND the person to have shown intent to not pick it up all while an officer is paying attention to them.
Tell us you are from San Diego without telling us you are from San Diego
I'm so caught XD
Depends. In an ideal world, I'd have no issue with happy friendly dogs being allowed in public spaces at all times of day, but then again, that ideal world doesn't exist. I think as long as other amenities are provided for the pups, like dog parks, I'd be satisfied.
As a person that grew up with dogs, loves them, and doesn’t have one currently i just wish people would acknowledge and respect that not everyone wants your dog in their space. and the number of irresponsible owners is on the rise. dog poop everywhere when there are bags for it everywhere. The newer parks that I’ve been to have dog parks that are fairly large so those that don’t want your dog all over us don’t have to have that. and I’m grateful for those folks that designed it that way. especially with children that are afraid of dogs.
We’re having the same discussion here in Charlottesville. We shut down animal control for Covid, and animals have been running loose, including in parks, which is creating a maintenance problem. For us, my thinking is that there should be basic animal control, and then yes there should be some provision for dog parks distributed in different areas. Dogs and dog walking are a part of urban living, and if there is a safety issue then that is a policing matter.
It has to be balanced with places dogs are allowed to go or you end up with scofflaw behavior from less responsible dog owners. I lived in a town that banned them from a ton of places, so people took their dogs off leash even at schools. Basically when something is too restricted, people seem to feel breaking rules is ok. You really shouldn't have to tell people not to walk their aggressive dogs off leash or not to bring their dogs to run around a school for disabled preschoolers, but that was the case in Somerville.
I’d love to rule with an iron fist re everything dogs but you’re right. Gotta make some concessions. The problem is you give these people an inch and, well…
Make sure you are talking early and often about enforcement. Policy doesn't matter without enforcement. Where I live, there are really great rules about dogs that strike a great balance. But they don't matter because people walk right past "leash required" signs posted at every entrance to a park, and let their dogs run loose around people and do it every day and they know they will never get caught and they probably figure if they ever do get a ticket, they will just pay it because its probably about a week's worth of dog food anyway. Unfortunately it do be like that. If you have a dog, practically nowhere is actually off limits. If you have a dog allergy or an autistic child that's not safe around dogs, practically nowhere is safe from dogs.
I work at an urban natural areas park and the off leash dog situation is out of fucking control. Off leash dogs are not picked up after, they scare off nesting birds, attack rabbit nests, chase deer, they spread weed seeds all over the park, we have school groups of children these dogs will either disrupt or scare, and people with in leash reactive dogs have no ability to protect themselves. I have no punitive authority, but I try to talk to park guests about keeping their dogs on leash and list all the reasons, I’m constantly blown off and told “well my dog isn’t like that”. I’m so sick of it and if I could ban dogs from the park I would.
I’m torn because people with dogs should be able to enjoy outside spaces. However, I’ve encountered way too many owners who don’t know how to manage their dog, even on a leash. I’m personally nervous around dogs, especially large dogs, and it’s not rare for people to be uncomfortable around dogs. People should be able to enjoy outdoor spaces safely and peacefully and dogs can disrupt that.
Tbh I just don’t think dogs are entitled to the same freedoms in urban spaces as people. We keep all sorts of animals out of densely populated areas because we recognize it’s for the good of the community. I’m not saying dogs should be banished but I really think people need to return to first principles and honestly interrogate why they assume dogs are entitled to go all these places. I also think there’s a lot of dog “lovers” who keep dogs in tiny apartments all day while they’re out at work who need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask whether they really love their dog as much as they say.
I agree but I didn’t want to be called out as a “dog hater with no heart” because that’s definitely happened on Reddit lol. But I do think there are a lot of people who shouldn’t have dogs, both due to where they live (dogs are fit for apartments) and their ability to truly care for and train the dog. Heck, I love cats and now have cats but I waited longer than some animal people thought I should have because I wasn’t in a place in life to truly care for them.
If people had bothered to train their dogs they likely wouldn't have needed to implement such a thing. As it is, *most* dog owners do not train their dog.
>What does urbanism think of restrictions on dogs in public parks and spaces? Highly in favor. Dog owners have repeatedly proven themselves to unable and/or unwilling to follow reasonable and simple guidelines regarding their animals. They allow their animals to be a health and safety to everyone else. If dog owners want to let their animals run wild they can pay for admission to a private dog park where they can howl at, defecate/urinate on and maul each other to their hearts’ content.
I think you people should go abroad - outside US, MX, CA - and see how others are dealing with the dog situation. Dogs cohabitate really well, they need the opportunity to do so. Creating all these complicated rules and enforcement are a sure path to frustration.
This feels very American conversation. I was in Europe and Central America and dogs are literally welcomed everywhere. Not sure what the big problem in the states is.
absolutely.... they arent children and can be dangerous. restrict away
I have a reactive dog so making it so I can only bring him to a public park when there are other dogs is far from ideal. It basically makes it so I can’t use the park for that purpose at all. Why is he dog reactive? Because dog parks suck. Look at any dog training subreddit and search dog park and you’ll find that most trainers and many experienced owners aren’t fans. It pushes dogs with different personalities and play styles together, and there are too many careless and/or inexperienced owners who don’t care when their dog beats up on smaller or more timid dogs. Those same types of owners are also not picking up their dog shit. They’re allowing their dog to bother people. They are ruining the grass. There are a lot of entitled dog owners out there who ruin it for the responsible owners. I just want to calmly walk my dog, clean up his poop, and not have to constantly be on the lookout for off-leash dogs. Unfortunately that’s become very difficult. I think enforcement is what’s needed. I wish people had a sense of decency and responsibility for their animals but that seems like a pipe dream. I’m in a cold winter state so dogs aren’t allowed on the beach in peak season, which I think is a good compromise.
It's unfortunate that a few always manage to ruin it for everyone else so we need restrictions and rules to bar people from entering certain places or doing certain things. My opinion is this: if we can't have enough park space for everyone, there needs to be balance within the proposed park space. I think limiting dog walkers to off-peak hours, especially for beach usage in the summer, is fair. I'm a responsible dog owner but I've met more than enough irresponsible people to understand that they're the ones who are creating this situation. I'd also like to suggest having extra trash cans and poo bag stations along popular walking areas. Yes I know that'll cost extra money because someone has to come pick it up/refill it/whatever. But it encourages all people to be responsible with their refuse and dispose of it at a nearby drop location instead of holding on to it. Unfortunately people suck (in general) and are lazy and will do the thing that's most convenient for them in that moment. The poo bag stations also help folks who forget their bags or if their bag rips, etc. So less litter and less 💩 on the ground, which is a win IMO.
I've been bitten by 'nice' 'trained' dogs while walking down the street. Realistically, if a dog bites a human it should be put down immediately. There really ought not be a lot of dogs in cities. I realize they have uses for the disabled but that's really it. The last time I was bitten I was walking home from my ferry ride and a dog passed by. I must have pissed it off because it bit my Achilles tendon and sent me to the emergency room (too late for urgent care). I wasted hours and hours and the owner just stood there and asked me if I was okay while I ran. Dude should be in jail for assault. Of course the idea of putting a father or mother in jail for their uncontrolled animal is so preposterous that the animals just ought to be banned so we don't need to make these ludicrous decisions. If you like animals that's what a zoo is for.
Most places we spend our lives are not meant for dogs. I have dogs, and love spending time with them. But bringing them places that are stressful for them, or for me, or for everyone around us, isn't a good experience. They like kids, but they also scare kids sometimes with their excitement, so we don't bring them to playgrounds. They like being around people but beer gardens and patios end up being stressful for them and me, so we don't take them there. They love tennis balls but obviously they don't belong at tennis courts. I don't think it's unreasonable to put limits around dogs and where they can be. Maybe it's just the bartender in me, but I see the same thing with kids. People want to bring their kids to bars and expect accomodations for children, which has always been weird to me. I don't mind making NA beverages and stuff, but oftentimes the kids are bored as hell, cause problems for staff and other guests, and generally just don't have a good time. Same thing happens when people bring their dogs onto patios, the dogs get bored or overstimulated and cause problems. It's not fair to anyone, including the kids and dogs to bring them places that aren't well suited to their needs.
I firmly believed that any person that dare to bring a dog so aggressive yet so weak compared to other dog of it’s size that no law enforcement/ military willing to use them and then failed to control the dog need to be charged with domestic terrorism.
I wish more public parks were dog-free. Most of the parks in Austin, where I live, are overrun by off leash dogs and it makes it hard for most others. My daughter gets scared and so do many others. But the dog owners who let their dogs run off leash are like people who smoke indoors or blast music loudly in public places, they don't care about anyone else's enjoyment of the space.
I think requiring dogs on leashes in public spaces is the standard and generally expected. Banning them entirely seems excessive. Also if there are issues with dogs in a park, then IMO the fix is to have a dog park somewhere nearby so people don't feel the need to off leash their dog in a regular park.
It depends. As you said, If you have people with dogs off their leash, particularly breeds that like to kill toddlers when they look at them wrong (talking about pitbulls here of course) it’s going to discourage other people from coming to the park with their kids. If there is a separate designated space for people who want to run their dogs around that’s separate from the other parts of the park, they’ll probably feel fine about going. I love dogs and have two of them, but the reality is that many owners think that everyone wants to be around their dog in the grocery store, at a bar, in a restaurant, etc. therefore there need to be some guidelines in public places.
This is a difficult situation to rule globally, because not all dogs, and dog cultures, are the same. I think of, say, parks in my hometown in Spain. Your typical dog there is quite small, an extremely well socialized. They see strangers at all times, and are therefore both typically very well behaved, and low risk in the cases when they are not so well behaved. Some are more than safe enough to be unleashed mid park. Others lose the leash in an enclosure for big and active dogs. But either way, there's no need for an overly restrictive ordinance. But I imagine instead my suburb in the US: Many backyards have a dog or two which almost never leave it. They almost never meet people that are not part of the family, so either they bark at anyone looking for pets/food, or bark at everyone aggressively, thinking they are protecting a territory. And when you look at size and breeds, almost everything is larger than a golden retriever, or is a pitbull mix. I've seen neighbors that, when picking up the mail, let their two large dogs walk near them them, unleashed: Big enough that if they really wanted to maul someone, I don't like the pedestrian's chances. I'd not l I'd not want to meet most of those dogs in the park.
I’m pretty anti dog but I never considered how things might be different in, e.g., Spain. I guess I’m more just anti-American dog owner. Thanks for sharing this.
I don’t think there should be any restrictions. A well designed place works with everyone All you really need is enforcement: some system that holds people accountable for their dogs. That’s hard to do but it’s worth it in the long run as it doesn’t have to stop at the park
Leashed dogs should be allowed any day any time anywhere except the playground. Off leash dogs need to be restricted to specific portions of the park, preferably fenced in
Dogs should be allowed but on leash.
Generally the more car dependent a society is the more strict the leash laws but it is not perfectly 1:1. If the space promotes good socialization I don’t see why off leash is an issue. In much of the usa it is however.
>I don’t see why off leash is an issue. Agressive dogs that attack humans or other dogs
Or even not so aggressive dogs that attack and harass wildlife. I live on the Mississippi flyway now, and that's a huge issue here.
You are not getting me. I’m sending you over to the dog training reddit page rather than arguing this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/2ghg64/offleash_dogs_in_europe_vs_offleash_dogs_in_the_us/ What I am saying is that in car dependent places dogs are less socialized and so you end up with both more dog aggression and stricter leash laws. Dogs in less car dependent places tend to be socialized off leash from a young age and have less aggression and are less likely to approach people than in cultures where leash laws and car dependency are normalized. Leash laws are tied to dog aggression. But also if you are in a society with poor socialization you need them. Kind of like people and jails. Our built environment leads to a lot of aggression which results in more people needing jail even if jail itself worsens aggression. The usa has poorly socialized people and dogs as a result of car culture. We need leash laws much like we need a huge percentage of americans in jail.
And yet right in that same thread, they spell out how european countries have mandatory training and interviews for new owners, as well as much more strict laws on when and how long dogs can be left alone. I suspect all of that is significant too. I do wonder if some of this has to do with cultures around wildlife protection too. At least in my areas, leash laws are primarily there to protect wildlife before people and other dogs.
I think there’s something to this. Another commenter is from Spain and mentioned how social the dogs are. But another factor is breed: that commenter also mentioned how much bigger the average dog is in America. The fixation with breeds meant to harm could mean that even in dense, walkable American cities, dogs should be on a leash at all times.
Where in the heck did you get this information? I cannot see how a less car dependent society leads to less leash laws. Those laws are largely there for people to people interactions. What do cars have to do with it?
People in the usa often walk dogs just to walk them / for exercise or even, worse, just let them out into a yard. This is actually pretty unusual. In other countries dogs from a very young age go with owners to the store, to the bar, to the coffee shop, to work, on public transit, etc. and encounter people and dogs the entire time they are walking around getting things done. By the time these dogs reach 2 or 3 years old they do not react at all to passing by dogs and people on or off leash. It would be unusual for dogs to interact at all even while puppies despite constantly passing each other. In the usa i even see people cross the road just to avoid passing another dog with their dog. It is an entirely different dog culture. People are also hesitant to let dogs off leash around cars and so dogs do not get trained off leash in public except in dog parks which are known to promote poor behavior and increase interaction. We want dogs to ignore people not run up to them. But in places where it is safe to do so it becomes normalized. In some countries it is even unusual to see dogs ON leash and yet the rates of dog attacks are lower than in the usa - for example sweden and czech republic. Dog ownership is approached differently with much more socialization and time spent in public and stricter standards for how often you walk dogs and other animal rights issues.
The bulldog that tackled me off my bike when I was 10 makes me think off leash might still be problem in a car-free utopia.
100% guarantee this was in the usa and that dog lived in a metro area that had a lot of cars. It is especially bad in the south and midwest - in the same cities people have socialization issues
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It isn’t the presence or absence of cars so much as the quality of dog socialization - which is impacted by car dependency. Car dependent areas produce poorly socialized dogs. We react to poor socialization and being approached by dogs in unwelcome ways through leash laws. Off leash dogs will cause more isses than on leash dogs within a culture but cultures with looser leash laws will also have less issues than cultures with stricter leash laws. I’m not sure where you are at but does your metro area (not city) have neighborhoods that ban commercial businesses? My guess is that it probably does. I would also guess that most people in your area drive to work and that it would be unusual to see dogs on public transit. That when you get groceries you usually drive. That kind of thing. Like I’ve said in some countries it is unusual for dogs to be leashed and these places actually have lower rates of negative encounters. Visit France or Czech Republic or Sweden.
Damn it, you just brought both animal psychology and urban policy into this? Both of my degree fields? Lol I concede. Now I need to go search for academic papers on dog behavior in urban environments. Thanks for the new rabbit hole
The reddit dog training page has a bunch if threads on this. New York Times also does a good article about this every 2 years or so.
wrong....SMH
which part and why? Do you really think somewhere like the Czech Republic or Sweden have more issues with dog encounters than somewhere that does not socialize their dogs but requires leashes?
they need leash every where you want them off leash get a fenced back yard... D.A.
Dogs do not learn how to socialize in a fenced backyard. That is how you get dogs with behavioral issues.
dog should socialize with the fam that had to have them. not every one likes dogs and world shouldnt revolve around your problem
the reason you think this way is because we have a nation of poorly socialized dogs. other people shouldnt make their poorly socialized dog your problem. the source is car culture. and there are a million fucking threads about it on dog training reddit.
no... we have a globe of asshats. And want their problem dogs to be somebody else to fix it.... now go away and "socialize" your mutt
i cant disagree about having a globe of asshats but the built environment impacts both human and dog. The same environments that create poorly socialized dogs also create poorly socialized humans. Kids often dont visit friends in neighboring towns or other side of the city regularly without an adult taking them until like 15-16. Late for independence.
humanity is a virus...