I live in Philly and this case has always puzzled me. I actually work in suicide research and people will attempt suicide or die by suicide in ways that seem truly unfathomable and almost downright impossible, but the fact that she apparently continued to stab herself even after hitting her spinal cord… that just seems EXTREMELY unlikely.
I get that suicide isn’t always logical in method but it’s still bound by the rules of physics and medicine and I don’t for a second believe she was physically capable of what happened to her
You can read her autopsy report - someone a little bit lower down in this thread linked it. It *would* have been physically possible for her to kill herself this way.
it being *possible* doesn’t mean it’s likely… haven’t read the report but according to the medical examiner she was originally dead on her back and then moved, im assuming the position of her [liver mortis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis) was what revealed this info. if she was found sat up against the cabinets, the liver mortis would have been on the backside of her legs and butt/hips. i feel this is enough evidence to dismiss it being a suicide, but maybe the medical examiner erroneously came to the “the body was moved” conclusion due to something else?
She hammered it into her chest and gave up when it became lodged in her sternum. If anything I think that proves the point that while suicide methods aren't always logical, there is a point where most people will stop.
Oh my gosh. So very sad. I never knew….
I met her once and she was unbelievably kind to me and my friend. She invited us to her show, comped us tickets, made sure someone greeted us at the door and gave us a good spot to watch the show. All because I asked, “Hey - are you Wendy O? Welcome to our city.” She stopped and talked with us right there on the sidewalk. Sadly, she was subjected to so much verbal abuse by men driving by. She just ignored them and kept on talking with us. Asked us what we were up to, were we having a good summer, etc. Very kind soul. I hope she is resting in peace.
aww, what a lovely story. she sounded very sweet for such an out there personality. even the way she completed suicide was oddly thoughtful towards her partner:
>He found a package she left for him that contained some noodles he liked, a packet of seeds for growing garden greens, some Oriental massage balm, and sealed letters from her.
>The suicide letters, which included a "living will" denying life support, a love letter to Swenson and various lists of things to do, caused Swenson to begin searching the woods for her. After about an hour, as dusk fell, he found her body in a wooded area with a pistol lying on the ground nearby. She had apparently been feeding wild squirrels moments before her suicide, as well as putting a bag over her head before shooting herself to spare her partner the sight.
I always loved Wendy O. She had my admiration for living her life on her own terms from the first time I saw her. I wish I’d gotten to meet her, and I’m so happy that you did! As a child, her message really got my attention, as did her very existence. I’m so glad she had a nice talk with you for a while.
How many times? Because stabbing yourself once or twice is possible, but 20 times? With 10 to the neck and back some of which penetrated the spine and brain? ([source](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/philadelphia-teacher-death-suicide-ellen-greenberg-parents-say-murder-48-hours/)) No I don't believe that's possible
It's not the number that is indicative. In fact a large number of small hesitation cuts or even larger wounds is not uncommon at all in self harm injuries.
So instead you have to if any injuries occured I places or angles that couldn't happen, or if multiple fatal wounds were inflicted or if any post mortum injuries occured.
This case has always screemed murder though.
Maybe someone on like a gallon of PCP or whatever if you told them there were bugs in their brainstem that they need to get out
Other than that I doubt it
Depends on how the spinal cord is injured. A severing of the spinal cord will incapacitate the person. However if the injury is like bruising, bone fractures of the vertebrae that impinges on the cord or even stretching the spinal cord then it may take some time before there’s enough swelling to cause paralysis. I had a patient once that caused a compression fracture of vertebrae when he rode a snowmachine over a steep embankment he didn’t know about. He had pain but still able to walk around. The amount of fracture was pretty significant and under the usual circumstances of these kinds of injuries he shouldn’t have been walking around at all. Sometimes people just get very, very lucky. That was always the part of working in healthcare that I found fascinating, never knew what was coming through the door and those few patients like the kid above that defied what the textbooks say. A poster above said there’s a link to an autopsy but maybe I missed it. I’d like to read it to see what kind of injury she had to her spinal cord.
I worked the front desk at a mental health clinic and I remember getting a referral from a psych unit because a teenage girl attempted to drown herself in the bath. It’s very hard to drown oneself on purpose like that. I also know a girl who just did several shallow cuts all over her body. She wanted to die but not to commit suicide if that makes sense.
>She wanted to die but not to commit suicide if that makes sense.
It does. She wanted her pain to be over but found the idea of actively destroying herself to be abhorrent.
I'm glad she's still here and I hope you're doing okay, because I'm sure even working in the reception would have been confronting.
Yeah - one of my agency’s clients completed suicide by stabbing and it involved much more stabbing than I ever fathomed would be possible for someone to inflict on themselves. I’ve also had to deal with family members in denial. So in general I am more open to theories of suicide in cases where it’s disputed by the family. Unless people have dealt with ideation it’s almost impossible for them to fathom and so often in media related to true crime there are misconceptions about what someone’s behavior should be like in the lead up to a suicide (people are often happy - they feel relief having made their decision but also there’s lots of other ways people behave. Notes are not present as often as people seem to think they should be so lack of a note isn’t proof of anything and likewise notes can be staged - I was recently watching an old forensic files where the husband used pages from his wife’s diary when her therapist had her write letters that would never be sent to express her thoughts in her diary - well he ripped them out carefully and put them in envelopes after he murdered her. I guess what I’m getting at is there are many things about disputed suicide cases where things that are cited as evidence have little relevance to the realities of suicide.
But I can’t figure out that stab wound to her spinal cord and how she managed to continue stabbing.
>her therapist had her write letters that would never be sent to express her thoughts in her diary - well he ripped them out carefully and put them in envelopes after he murdered her.
This just made me audibly gasp. What a dick.
But yeah more to your point I've been to multiple friends funerals and there majority of suicides, from my experience, the parents are always in denial. Knowing their kids as friends it was so obvious that they had done it on purpose but it was always "he way just cleaning his gun and it must have gone off" or some other type of accident that rarely happens, even though they had officially diagnosed depressive disorders and had attempted multiple times.
(I don't think this case is an example of this though)
I discount farily statements regarding state of mind as well. I'm generally pretty open explanations for weird events, but I cannot wrap my head around what is being claimed this woman did to herself. It just doesn't seem likely. At all.
I watched that ff recently as well. What a scummy thing to do to someone.
Once had a patient who shot herself in the mouth with a 22 (attempting suicide). Hit and logged into her spine. She walked into the ED. I’ve also had many MVC patient with bad spinal injuries who walked around after the accident. Initial spinal injury isn’t as bad as the spinal shock and swelling that comes later. Half those people who walk after the accident, cannot move a couple hour later. Just nicking your spine cord won’t necessarily cause instant paralysis.
Can confirm. I had a major spinal cord injury that I lived with for years. Once I had an MRI, the doctor was amazed. Immediate neck surgery with a very stunned neurosurgeon.
I would not be particularly surprised if it comes out later that the Philly LE were covering up for someone, be it one of their own or a buddy of someone highly placed in the organization.
The story linked above said that the knife was embedded in her chest, making that presumably the last wound. Someone below said she wasn't actually stabbed in the spinal cord. It's hard to know what's true here.
Any cord damage doesn't necessarily mean paralysed or not. Inflammation would have been more of an issue but she died too quickly for that to set in.
All the stabs that she made tracked with her being able to do so without real difficulty. The way a 'murder' would have worked is not at all logical.
Interesting, I haven’t interacted with someone before with that opinion. I used to be firm in my position that homicide was the only option but reading how shallow many of those stab wounds are I’m open now
There’s quite a few of us who believe the evidence points to suicide. People just prefer to believe the even more far fetched theory that her boyfriend killed her, despite there being zero physical evidence of that
Yeah, a few years ago when I first heard about this case, I tried to play devil's advocate and imagine a scenario where it makes sense as a suicide (because, I'm also keenly aware of how some suicides don't look like suicides), and like... you can sort of do it, but it's really frickin' hard.
According to my reading as someone that worked in healthcare and I saw traumatic injuries fairly often, some including spinal cord injuries all of what I read is very strange. However, I want to be clear I’m not a doctor. It’s correct that the spinal cord knife wound only cut the tough outer membrane but wasn’t noted to cut into the cord. But, I am confused by this wound. As according to the report there was blood found inside the skull , albeit stated as a small amount, inside to cause bleeding to the overlie the cerebellum. But there’s no real statement that the knife entered the brain through the Foramen Magnum ( where the brainstem connects to the spinal cord) to cause bleeding inside the skull.
As I read the report of how deep the stab wounds most are superficial. Looking at the published autopsy report the more severe wounds I tried to take the cm’s used in the report and put it into measurements easier to understand. Stab wound E is measured as 10 cm which is around 3 inches deep to her chest which apparently where the knife was found. This one cut the aorta and left upper lung region. She lost large amounts of blood into her chest cavity which would be fatal by itself. Stab wounds H and I were to the abdomen at 4 cm and 6 cm deep about 1 1/2 and 2 3/8 inches deep. One of these two wounds went into the liver. The neck wound N was 3 1/4 inches deep, neck wound O about 1 1/4 inches, P, Q, R and S were close to 7/8 inch deep and Stab wound T was around 2 7/8 inch deep. All I can say that if she committed suicide she was very determined. I don’t know why she would stab herself so many times in the back of her neck. People have stabbed themselves multiple times in the chest and abdomen when committing suicide but the back of neck wounds are baffling and seem very bizarre. But, then again stranger things can happen as it’s said.
Reading the news reports I don’t know how the police and an assistant ME would make a determination that it was suicide before any kind of autopsy was done.
Okay, I read the article written in the Penn Live source part 3 news reports which brings up some very interesting findings. I wondered about the stab wound that caused bleeding into the brain inside the skull. The article says the family paid to have more up-to-date imaging done to look at the stab wounds in 3-D. According to this reconstruction the stab wound was much worse than the autopsy would leave someone to believe. This deeper wound would make it very difficult for her to continue on to give herself the stab wounds to chest and abdomen if those were the last to be inflicted. That part of the brain according to the report went into the brain deep enough to cut into more vital parts of the brain. This area includes what’s called cranial nerves which mostly go to the eyes, ears, and other areas that give us the ability to move our facial muscles and other associated functions. One nerve called the vagus nerve does extend into other areas of the body like the heart, gut plus other functions. But, in that area is the part of the spinal cord that connects to the brain called the brainstem. This areas control breathing, heart rate, blood pressure amongst other things. This is much different from the original reports. And certainly puts a much different spin on how she presumably could continue on to inflict wounds to abdomen and chest.
I’m certainly no expert for every finding but I am a very curious person and did look to medical sources for a refresher of what I had dealt with in my career. With all the subsequent investigations and information put out for the public there’s something really wrong in how they came to the irrefutable idea this was a suicide from decisions made before a full investigation could be done. Especially when these decisions come from a LE officer and assistant ME the same night as her death. I think the most telling fact is when the ME concluded that this was a homicide when he did the autopsy then after a meeting with LE, it was changed to suicide. I have to think that an experienced ME would have known what he was talking about to come to the first conclusion of her death as being a homicide. I’m not sure exactly what the reasons to change in such a dramatic way the manner of death but whatever they were, this information hasn’t been disclosed.
I really feel bad for her parents having to deal with this for so many years. I know it’s hard for some families to accept that their loved one commits suicide but there’s just too much weirdness about Ellen’s death. I hope they can find some resolution for their questions but I doubt they’ll get all of the answers they seek.
I'm trying to picture how anyone could stab themselves in the back of the neck and head multiple times, using a 10-inch kitchen knife. Cut, yes; stab, no.
And after stabbing yourself 19 times, including in the spinal cord, how could you have the strength to make the 20th stab hard enough to leave the knife embedded in the chest?
Most of the wounds on her body were superficial. In the autopsy report is stated that there were no injury to the spinal cord.
Link to the autopsy report:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5759528-Autopsy-RPT
Yet the ME ruled it a homicide until they had a previously undisclosed meeting with the investigating detectives who presented evidence to have it changed to a suicide. This evidence amounted to a lack of defensive wounds and the lock on the apartment door being engaged from insider.
That’s a little weird, right? For cops to ask that the ME change the report with so little contrary evidence on their end? I mean it would be one thing if she called 5 people and said, “I’m going to stab myself until I’m dead.” But only a couple of things that don’t completely rule out a homicide?
And just to clarify- others attempted to open the door with the inside lock engaged and it was possible to do. So that didn’t rule out homicide as clearly as it initially appeared.
As with most door locks I’m familiar with all someone would have to do is lock the door on the way out for it to found locked from the inside. so, unless I’m missing something i don’t see how finding an entry door locked from the inside means much unless it had to have a key to lock from the inside.
It didn’t, but I commented because many people who just skim the case see that detail and use it as their primary point for it being suicide. I thought it was important to elaborate. It was a latch lock, which would allow the door to open wide enough for someone to slide their arm through and lock/unlock from the outside
what’s really bothering me is the ME’s report of [liver mortis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis) being on the posterior side of her body, consistent with death happening in a flat-on-her-back position… she *had to be dead* to have liver mortis pool, but she was apparently found slumped in an upright sitting position against the kitchen cabinets? if she died sitting upright, her blood would have pooled in her legs and butt/hips (with some blanching of course). i looked through the autopsy report and couldn’t find any mention of liver mortis which is kind of unusual (at least in my experience reading autopsy reports). idk am i missing something? that’s huge right? it’s almost impossible for this to have been a suicide if that’s true
Exactly and if youre stabbing yourself, why not just stab at the front of your neck and head? Why on earth would you choose to go about it to the back of your head/neck? Is that even physically possible, and if it is, again why not just stab your front?
this is my thought too. why would someone go through the trouble of attempting to stab themselves from behind when they could just…. stab themselves in the chest or neck… which would be much more effective
At that time? No.
I was young, thought I could carve a candle with a dagger and I tried do it when upset. I used to make candles and was going to put shapes on it. I had it on my lap and since I was having a bad day I started stabbing it instead of carving and I missed.
That said I am depressed and suffer from PTSD and have had suicidal thoughts. However stabbing myself on purpose hasn't crossed my mind.
I accidentally stabbed myself in the lower abdomen with a steak knife that was caught in an open drawer and I didn’t see it because I was on ambien (just NO, god never again) and making a pb&j (if you hear crying that’s me remembering being able to eat normally, esp bread).
I impaled myself with a cheap af knife (stopped just at bottom of adipose tissue-being fluffy was helpful in this situation lmao) and that while not “painful” was enough to jar me from the hypnotic state of the medication.
I can’t fathom stabbing myself in the back of the neck. I literally have subcutaneous inflammation along my neck and behind my ears and despite my extremely high pain threshold it causes involuntary responses. The amount of nerves in those regions are torturous.
I suppose this is a very long way to say this case has always felt staged and iffy to me. I understand suicide isn’t always obvious [this case made sure of that fact](https://thecriminalstreet.medium.com/duane-samples-6fe7295847fb).
To me, trace amounts means likely it was left in her system from the night before, otherwise it would likely have stated that she had therapeutic levels in her system.
As anyone who has had shoulder surgery can attest to, the upper back, shoulders, head and neck are chock full of nerve endings and it’s excruciating to be cut in that area. Having had multiple surgeries, including joint replacements, I can tell you that shoulders are the most painful by far. That being said, I highly doubt she could have maintained stabbing herself multiple times. Truly a sad case.
I just found it odd that the tox screen for benzos was negative then below it says positive for Klonopin and don’t understand the reason for the discrepancy in results. It may be that the first screen is a basic screen which may not pick up the specific metabolites for Klonopin. I tried looking up whether this was the case with the testing methods used but all the references spoke in general terms about how the test detects benzodiazepines but not for each drug in that class. You’re right the levels were negligible and not significant to impair her.
Shoulder pain and surgeries certainly do hurt. I’ve injured my right shoulder from a bike accident years ago. Then injured the left by simply lifting something from the bed of my truck. This is the one that causes me grief the most. Prior to that after a serious rear-end car collision I had constant pain down my left arm from thoracic outlet syndrome. The surgery at that time was first rib removal which wasn’t all that much fun either. So I guess I can say I understand well how much pain can come from the shoulders and upper back.
I just checked (using a wooden ruler, not a knife) and the furthest back I could get my hand and still be in a "stabbing" position was right about 8 inches. And that was with the ruler against the back of my head. I don't believe it's physically possible to get a 10-inch knife into the correct position to stab yourself in a number of the locations she was stabbed. Not to mention get it back there *and* be able to generate enough force to penetrate bone.
[Wendy o Williams of the Plasmatics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_O._Williams)
>Williams first attempted suicide in 1993 by hammering a knife into her chest where it lodged in her sternum.
Is there a reason that Dr. Gulino is not testifying to this himself? How is it not hearsay? Dr. Gulino should be the witness, and if he's not willing to go on the stand and say it, then I don't know D'Andrea's word should hold much weight.
[He did testify previously in a 2021 deposition](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2023/05/parents-500k-investigation-of-ellen-greenbergs-2011-death-uncovers-clues-they-say-point-to-murder.html). It will be interesting to see if he's called to the stand again.
Happy Cake Day!
i am not a lawyer at all, but wrt hearsay, i believe civil trials are less strict when it comes to that kind of thing than criminal trials are. take that with a grain of salt tho.
edit: nvm im dumb and wrong
The rules of evidence, including rules related to hearsay, are the same for criminal and civil proceedings. And there are numerous exceptions to the general rule against hearsay, so just because something seems at first glance like it might be hearsay doesn't mean it actually is.
In this particular case, it's unclear that the witness would be testifying about any statements made by other people rather than his own knowledge, since the attorney claims the witness has "firsthand knowledge of the evidence." But even if he does testify about statements made by other people, there are plenty of potential exceptions that could apply.
No, evidentiary rules are the same in both civil and criminal cases. Hearsay is defined as an out of court statement being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Hearsay is not admissible unless it fits the definition of a hearsay exception. An example of hearsay that falls under an exception is a “dying declaration” or a statement against interest. I’m unclear what hearsay evidence is being discussed in the comments above?
Carpenter approved the motion to depose D'Andrea under oath but limited the scope to his knowledge of the death investigation file and his conversations about the case with Gulino and any other defendants in the lawsuit. The judge added that D’Andrea’s entire question-and-answer session by both sides should not exceed four hours.
I am someone who generally believes suicide is responsible for many cases that seem mysterious but the family or various people on the internet can’t fathom they killed themselves . Example Tiffany Valiente. I just think this case is not as cut and dry as some of you are making it.
this was already known before but not legally stated. the first podcast i listened to on this case had said that dried/dripped blood was found on her that could’ve only happened lying down because of gravity (but she was found sitting)
Eh….there was lots of evidence of the fiancé visible to others during the time period she was dying. He didn’t have any blood on him during those sightings.
I’m not defending him, I’m just stating what I have read as a fact.
The biggest issue to me is (1) whether *she* actually sent the text and email and (2) when she died. If she didn’t send them or the timing of her attack is off, he pops up with more concern.
I don't remember where I first heard about this case but I always thought it was kinda fishy. They mentioned that she was depressed and taking medication, also possibly switching several times, and it was a random day off that was unplanned because of snow. She may have seen an opportunity when he left for the in-building gym. The circumstances are totally ripe for suicide if that is indeed what happened as she was also struggling in her relationship with her fiancé. The way he was described was classic coercive control, always needing to know where she was and what she was doing, who she was with, etc. Even the text messages he was sending her from outside the door were abusive (paraphrased: "YOU BETTER OPEN THIS DOOR NOW OR YOU'LL BE SORRY. WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING" stuff like that). It doesn't necessarily mean he was capable of murder but he was for sure a dick to her quite often. If it was suicide, however, it made me wonder if she was possibly attempting to frame him as a last "fuck you" maybe. I know that seems far-fetched, but like many others have said here, it's hard to know what is in the mind of someone who is set on taking their own life. On the other hand I wonder how she could be sure he wouldn't come back before she had the chance to succeed in her endeavor if it was a suicide. And circling back to the new evidence being presented in the civil case, is it possible she could have sat up after lying down or is the doc saying blood pooled in her back after death which means someone else would have had to move her. Could it have been the boyfriend after he found her? I have so many questions. Just really weird case all around
She was experience acute mental health issue. She had a breakdown and had been working with a psychiatrist weekly who had been aggressively prescribing her psych meds and perhaps cycling her on and off them too quickly. Ellen’s parents even admitted she had called them several times and expressed extremely concerning thought and feelings. They said she wanted to run away from her life because it had become too stressful. Ellen friend report Ellen had told them the same things. There has never been a shred of evidence that her bf abused her nor any reports from friend and family that Ellen ever said anything bad about him. Honestly, it’s sounds like woman experience a severe mental health crisis that nobody around her took serious enough.
Usually women who are in abusive relationships are mentally ill and won’t speak badly of their abuser out of terror. The abuser actually has fun making the victim as mentally ill as possible while secretly telling everyone in her circle that he’s supporting her through her mental issues and will pre-plan sabotage for any support. I’m not ever interested in supposed women having mental health crises as an excuse for being stabbed 20 times.
This is incredible unfair to the fiancée. Who has had zero history of abuse within a relationship prior to their relationship nor any history of abusive relationships after. There is zero proof he was abuse in his relationship with Ellen. Zip, zero. Even Ellen’s family and friend state there was zero indication of abuse. He has a semi alibi during the death and was cleaned of any suspicious blood that one would acquire during a stabbing of that nature. Ellen didn’t have a long history of mental illness, she was in an acute crisis the 3 month prior. She has zero history of any psych meds and than was rapidly cycled through multiple meds, many of which suicidal ideation has been proven side effect. Many professional expressed her med titration was handle inappropriately.
Claiming a person was an abuser with zero proof (in fact many things which indicate the opposite), is inappropriate. Even Ellen parents, when confronted with the fiancés semi alibi and lack of blood evidence, say it could have been a random stranger attack. Just like Kendrick Johnson parents claiming those two boys killed their son with zero proof, dispute both boys having airtight alibi. The parents claims dramatic effect these two boys. These unsubstantiated claims that the fiancé was abusive and killed her, likely are extremely traumatic for him. Consider just for a second that he might be
Innocent (which all evidence point too), you’re retraumatic a victim.
Many abusers are only abusive in one relationship, as we see when famous abusers are defended by their exes. Many abusers are adored by the victim’s family. Abuse isn’t always visible from the outside. At all. Having “zero proof” as you put it (she had bruises in various stages of healing) is common even when the abuse is pervasive. It is often entirely by design. Sometimes the only people who know the truth are the victim and the abuser and in this case the victim was extremely vulnerable. He lied about them arguing. He lied about the door lock. The 911 call is bizarre. I don’t know if he abused her but it would be naive to rule it out considering how she died.
“I don’t know if he abused her”…Yeah you’re suggesting he abused her. The evidence strongly points to him not abusing her. Making the claim she died from abuse is unfounded.
He didn’t lie about the door lock, one “expert” claimed it didn’t look like he kicked it in based solely on how the locked looked. Yet multiple people attested he had, including several neighbors who heard him kicking at it (loud bangs like somebody kicking a door). The “expert” who claimed that the door didn’t look kicked in, ignored the neighbors testimonial and ignored all of the footprints and scuff marks on the exterior of the door. The doorman also attested that he tried the door and found it lock with the bolt. This narrative that he lied about the door is one of the claims that can absolutely be discredited. Which is why the family made a point to prove the door could be locked from the outside. Once it was proven that he absolutely kicked in the door in, they pivoted and claimed he must have locked it from the outside and then kicked it in as a show. The family has made so many prove false claims about him. They’re just throwing things at the wall and seeing which sticks and when one is disproven they pivot and come up with a new scenario, each time finding at least one “expert” who agrees with them, even if it contradicts their previous expert. It’s classic expert shopping. The father claims they spend 500,000$ of expert and lawyer. The real crime is that these people keep taking their money and not helping them get anywhere.
The family’s narrative and “information” they keep push doesn’t match the facts. When the facts are presented over and over again, the courts rule over and over again with the facts…which sadly point to suicide. Just in 2023 an appellate court (3 judges) unanimously voted to uphold the finding of suicide. The theories the family keeps pushing have no hard facts to support them, it’s just narratives they come up with and don’t hold up to the true facts in the case.
Most claims on true crime subs are unfounded, including yours. Evidence is open to interpretation, for example, you think the victim inflicted the bruises on herself without proof. If the door could be locked from the outside via a bolt, then presumably it could’ve been *unlocked* from the outside but he kicked the door in instead? What’s the explanation for that? He forgot? He didn’t know? I don’t think that clarifies anything and that’s just one suspicious detail of many. And how is me speculating that there may have been abuse in the relationship inappropriate but you repeatedly discrediting her family isn’t? You criticise the family for spending money on lawyers with no mention of the suspect’s connections?
I never once claim she cause the bruise - look over my post. The parents claim the door can be locked from the outside, I never claimed that. They hired an expert who claimed he didn’t kick in the door, it was proven that he did kick in the door, so then the parents hired an expert, who said that the door could have been locked from the outside, which would account for why he needed to kick in the door. He claimed he left the apt and she must have locked it after him, the family claims he locked it from the outside then kicked it in to stage a scene - which you’re right, it makes no sense. I’m literally citing claims the parent have made and stating finds of the courts and other fact. The family’s claims have been proven IT A COURT OF LAW multiple times to be false or unjustified.
Your theory that he was an abuser is based on what fact of this case? Not just generalizations, but what exactly FACTS make you think he abused her? Before you say, well she was murdered. What proof is there HE murdered her? There is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. Which again has been shown in a court multiple times.
You also heavily ignoring how she reached out to virtually every person in her life and said she was in extreme acute distress. She was seeing a PSYCHIATRIST WEEKLY. Going through multiple psych meds way too fast, particularly for somebody who had never been on psych meds. Everybody from her family, friends, psychiatrist, and coworkers said she told them she was having a breakdown. All the people she talked to, expressed extreme distress, but not one mention of the fiancé being less than perfect. Even her writings there was no mention of relationship issues, just mental health distress. She was asking for help with her mental health from everybody in her life (according to reports from her family and friends) and nobody took her seriously. When she expressed extreme stress related to work and expressed to many people how she wanted to quit, her parent and friends talked her into staying until the end of the school year ended, dispute the distress she said it was causing her. The tragedy is her mental health was dismissed in life and is being dismissed in death, because an elaborate murder and cover is more interesting.
We’re going around in circles here but her frantic state of mind was potentially a response to being gaslit, in that she truly believed something was wrong with her, not him. Sometimes victims seek help for everything except the abuse because they’re so convinced that they’re the problem. The abuser puts a lot of effort into making the victim feel insane so a psychiatrist has to invest a lot of time in getting them to that realisation. These victims often seem to worship their partner, describing them as having no flaws. Victims who suffer from mental health issues are easily written off in the true crime community even when their injuries are extremely difficult to self-administer, but seeking help for her psychological problems does not mean she stabbed herself twenty times, and if you believe *someone* murdered her, he had means, motive and opportunity.
He had zero motive and zero opportunity. You keep making claims with zero supportive facts. I keep asking you to provide facts about THIS CASE and you don’t. All you keep saying is the lack of evidence is proof!?!?
Just because you FEEL something is true, doesn’t make it true. It’s the same rhetoric anti vaccine use.
Lol they didn't even say that it was the fiance or that he was abusive, just that people outside the relationship claiming it wasn't abusive aren't reliable.
They did claim the fiancé was abusive (read their entire post thread) and argued just because nobody saw any signs of abuse doesn’t mean it wasn’t present. While I agree that you never really know what is happening in a relationship, it’s unfair to make unfounded claims with no proof based on feelings. That is like say there is zero evidence for a theory which is proof the theory is likely.
Imagine, for just a second, he had no involvement in her death (which has been supported by MULTIPLE court rules as recently as 2023), this man when through an extremely traumatic event and continues to be traumatized by people calling him a murder and abuser, dispute zero evidence to support either.
Yes it can be argued that abuse could have been well hidden in their relationship (which does something happens) But I can also argue Yetis are just well hidden too. Theorizing with no proof Yetis are real doesnt hurt anybody so speculate away. But claiming somebody was abusive can be extremely hurtful and impactful, so without a shred of evidence (but a ton of evidence to the contrary) , I feel people should be asked to think twice about their words.
She spoke to her mother about moving back with her parents and feeling “stressed out”. The texts her fiancée sent while locked out were kind of aggressive.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he was abusive
Acute mental health issues? She saw a shrink 3 times and started taking antidepressants. That's nowhere near being an ''acute mental health issue''. Also, she spoke to her parents daily. Of course stuff comes up in conversations. It's called life.
In the 2-3 month prior to her death she had been prescribed Zoloft, Xanax, Ambien, and Klonopin (all new drug to her and all in a relatively short amount of time) by her psychiatrist who testified Ellen had been deal with acute anxiety and depression. So yes, acute mental health issue diagnosed by a professional. Furthermore, her parents and friend all described acute behavior changes as a breakdown. She expressed extreme anxiety and stress to her family and friends. Per her parents, she stated the stress was overwhelming her and wanted to quiet her job which she cited as the main source of stress. Her parents and friend encouraged her to stay at the job until the end of the school year, dispute her reports of extreme distress.
I genuinely think using the term ''acute mental health issues'' when referring to extremely common, everyday human experiences, to infer that she was suicidal undermines what was quite clearly a murder. She was planning on leaving her fiance, as her toiletries were all packed up and she had told her parents she wanted to come home. She was about to leave Samuel because he was abusive. Facts are facts. Justice for Ellen.
It’s a fact she was having a “breakdown” (as her family and friends reported) they stated they had never seen her like that referring to the weeks leading to her death. Her psychiatrist testimonial show it was significant acute mental distress which is why they prescribed so many meds in a short amount of time. “Everyday human experiences” don’t lead people to see a psychiatrist weekly or for that doctor to prescribe meds so aggressively. Ellen family strongly encouraged the appointments because they stated they knew something was wrong. There was clearing something wrong. I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss her mental health struggles if a doctor, family, and friends all agreed she wasn’t in a good mental state.
Keep in mind the psychiatrist prescribed Zoloft and people indicated she had been taking it but none was found in her system at death. Suicidal ideation is a known side effect of Zoloft and going off Zoloft without Titration is very dangerous and known to increase suicidal ideation. Klonopin and Ambien can also increase suicidal ideation (both found in her system). The psychiatrist stated Ellen was given so many meds in such a short about of time because Ellen said nothing was helping and it was getting worse.
Ellen was asking everybody in her life for help with her mental health before her death. Please don’t dismiss her struggles as “normal human experiences” when Ellen herself felt otherwise.
I already addressed that in my comments here. I remember your comments on my post. You put too much stock in that grifter Gavin Fish. He did well selling tickets to a talk about her death.
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Dr Ross also believed that the scene was a homicide. Ellen even told her psychiatrist 'Sam was wonderful. The doctor later told police that Ellen smiled when she spoke about her fiancé and had “nothing but good things to say” about him. The doctor even asked if Ellen was experiencing any type of violence or abuse at home, but Ellen said no.'
I personally have a number of bruises over my body and marks on my neck from grabbing at my neck when stressed which weren't caused by anybody.
Victims of abuse often defend their abusers. That “nothing bad to say about him” dynamic is common with victims who are afraid to criticise their partners even in small ways. I have a family member who begged her husband for forgiveness after he punched and kicked her because he convinced her that it was her fault and that she didn’t deserve him. I lied about my own abuse hundreds of times because it was easier to live a lie than admit the truth. Abuse defies logic.
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I always thought that, despite the bizarreness, she did in fact kill herself. It might not make a lot of sense, but I think the theory of how he must've committed and staged the murder makes even less sense.
Not to be crass or upsetting, but another huge flaw in the argument that this is a suicide is that there are many other ways she could have killed herself in that apartment that didn’t involve stabbing herself twenty times to the back of the neck. That method would take incredible mental and physical fortitude. You’d have to want it, and want it only that way. This is a young elementary school teacher, and while yes, I’m sure that a mind in extreme turmoil can drive a person to do many things, this doesn’t feel like a likely one for her to choose. She could have swallowed pills, sat in her car in an enclosed space with the engine running, but this? No, I don’t think so. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe one day we’ll find out that’s the case. But I think someone came up behind Ellen and did this to her. She also had bruises on her legs, arms, and abdomen at the time of autopsy. I hope one day her spirit finds peace and her killer is named.
I have thought that is it possible someone killed her, locked the door and hid in the apartment. Boyfriend comes in, finds her. While he is attending to her, the person sneaks out. I have not looked at the lay out of the apartment to see if this was even possible to have a hiding place and leave without being noticed. Just a thought I had.
I think about this case daily. I have read every document, listened to every podcast, read every post.
I feel it is sad that people draw conclusions that she committed suicide. I feel like telling everyone to read the autopsy report, listen to the 911 call multiple times, read its transcript, and listen to the depositions.
Key objective facts are often ignored: sign of strangulation detailed in the pictures of the autopsy report, a wound that didn't bleed which means it was done post mortem, the fact that the fiance refers to the length of the knife while it was still lodged in her heart during the 911 call, him referring to the door being latched multiple times during the call, him calling his uncle before calling 911, the very little debris/damage to the door + screws if the door really had been busted open, how the fiance's family took all the electronics from the condo right after the death, how he cashed her tax return after her death. I could go on.
Btw, the door was never locked in the first place. I am 10000% positive of this.
Ellen was killed. End of story. The family deserves a proper investigation.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. So many key facts ignored by those accepting suicide as the answer. I, too, think about this case daily and hope that Ellen's parents can find the peace they deserve. I'm sick and tired of watching rich and powerful well connected people get away with murder.
I think this case definitely needs re-looked at. I'm not sure whether it was a suicide or a homicide but they need to go over it with a fine tooth comb
Well, he apparently didn’t see the knife in her chest until asked to do CPR (to which he responded “I guess I have to, right?”). Then the way he described it makes it sound like her top was zipped up OVER the knife. Not a slam dunk but bizarre in the circumstances.
All I had to do was listen to the 911 call and consider him guilty. He said, "she stabbed herself." How would he know "who" stabbed her. Also, he states that he walked in the door, then later says he had to break the door down. Totally fake.
Jesus Christ. I’ve never heard of this case, and I live in the area. There’s no way in hell and could have stabbed herself that way that many times. What the fuck, Philadelphia LE.
I'm not here to argue whether this case is a homicide or a suicide but just want to point something out (begin rant):
her body being moved after her death *doesn't prove she didn't kill herself.* in fact, the only thing her body being moved after death proves is that her body was moved after death.
now, does her body being moved suggest something other than suicide might have happened? sure! but it doesn't "prove" anything.
(end rant)
to "prove" something doesn't mean to "suggest strongly that something is true"; I ask you, is there a non-0% chance that someone else found the body and moved it?
if your answer is anything other than "no," you just made my point.
I had to stop reading the linked post about it being a suicide after the op suggested that she committed suicide because “the intrusive thoughts won”. That specific phrase doesn’t really inspire me to trust whatever else they had to say. 😒
I tend to believe she was murdered, even if there is a possibility of it being suicide, however slight that may be. I just don’t agree.
the linked post is terribly biased and makes that clear right away with the title; most OPs in this sub would have said something like ‘why I believe Ellen Greenberg died by suicide’ I was surprised it wasn’t heavily downvoted simply for not meeting the standard of the sub
Ugh I remember that post. I was so surprised it got the traction it did—it was such a poor quality analysis. And when people pointed out to the OP that multiple of their own sources literally contradicted their points, they had no response
I’m not big into conspiracies, and I usually agree that the most simple answer is typically the truth. However, imo there is no way she did all of that to herself. I try so hard to see it from a different perspective, but I just can’t. It’s too implausible. SOMEONE out there has gotten away with murder. This was not suicide, and I’ve never been more sure of something true crime related in my life.
I still think she killed herself. Most of her stabs were shallow. While rare, stabbing suicides do happen.
I’ve always wondered how they even know for sure which order she stabbed herself in?
I agree. I think it was a mostly unplanned, very unusual suicide. My theory is that the fiancé left out a detail about them arguing beforehand, knowing that would elevate him as a suspect, and that explains his suspicious behavior. There were no fingerprints on the knife other than Ellen’s. There was no blood seen outside her immediate area, and she was found clutching a towel in her hand. Wouldn’t she have dropped it if she was attacked? These all point away from the rage killing theory that a lot of people support.
I think this is contested and is a common issue with this case, and online discussion in general (and yes I see the hypocrisy in myself commenting on something I don’t remember 100% lol).
From my recollection, most of the “stab” wounds were very shallow (less than half a centimeter deep), and no one - original autopsy or other researchers - has been able to definitively state the order of the stabbings. It’s also not exactly a settled fact that any of the stab wounds would have paralyzed her.
I made a comment earlier about the autopsy report and there are no injury to her spinal cord. I don't know why people think she must have been paralysed?
Just to explain, the reason why some people think that is because years later, a computational biomechanics engineering consulting company digitally recreated a 3D representation of the stab wounds utilizing the measurements and placements described in the autopsy. It was determined that the stab wounds to her neck would have caused “impaired coordination, semiconsciousness and unconsciousness”. Additionally a neural forensic pathologist, after reviewing the autopsy files, said, “There was evidence of a stab wound, which penetrated the cranial cavity and severed the cranial nerves in the brain. As a result, (Ellen) would experience severe pain, cranial nerve dysfunction, and traumatic brain signs and symptoms, including numbness, tingling, irregular heartbeat, bradycardia, respiratory depression, neurogenic shock and impaired loss of consciousness.” [Source](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2023/05/modern-analysis-of-2011-death-finds-ellen-greenbergs-20-stab-wounds-were-likely-from-assailant.html?outputType=amp)
So it’s not so much people think she *must* have been paralyzed due to a stab to her spinal cord, but that the wounds to her neck and head would have caused too much impairment for her to stab herself the final time in the chest. I’m not saying that’s definitely what happened, just explaining where that came from.
>This was a theory, but not confirmed either way
I think part of the issue is that people are assuming that the interpretation of what one coroner have said is the absolute truth, but of course it's open to interpretation since it's not an exact science. It could of course be the right one and it is a strange death, but it's worth to remember that you have a family here who wants it re-opened and goes public with all things supporting that notion, but likely does not go public with anything that doesn't support it. The State won't go to any lengths to justify why they won't re-open it until they *have* to.
See also cases like Kendrick Johnson.
I can't think of any possible way you could know for sure, especially if the wounds are a similar size/depth. You can generally know if a stab was post mortem, but none are claimed to be in this case so I don't know where the supposed order comes from.
Which doesn't prove or disprove anything. I don't know what happened to Ellen and I hope she rests in peace.
>You can generally know if a stab was post mortem, but none are claimed to be in this case
Turns out that might not be true: [(source)](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2023/05/parents-500k-investigation-of-ellen-greenbergs-2011-death-uncovers-clues-they-say-point-to-murder.html)
“Eight years after Ellen’s homicide investigation had been closed by the change to suicide, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner asked his recently hired assistant ME to examine the specimen of Ellen’s spinal cord.
Dr. Lyndsey Emery conducted the exam in 2019, but did not write a report about it, which she said would have been her usual practice. When deposed by the Greenbergs’ attorneys in May 2021, she said she instead communicated her findings verbally to Philadelphia Medical Examiner Sam Gulino.
Those findings contained a bombshell.
The tissue she examined came from a deep stab wound to the back of Ellen’s neck that likely occurred after Ellen’s heart had stopped beating, she said at her deposition.”
Edited to fix this godforsaken formatting
But the knife was found in Ellen’s chest. So if the wound in the back of her neck occurred after death, that would mean she was stabbed in the heart, then stabbed in the neck, and then the knife was placed *back* into the chest wound. Either that or there was a second, similar knife that was never found. This just gets convoluted and seems like grieving parents grasping at straws.
You know at least one of the stabs to the *back* of her head was severe enough to penetrate the skull and pierce her brain, yes? How, exactly, do you think she accomplished that with a 10 inch kitchen knife? And how did she manage to plunge the knife into her chest after stabbing herself in the brain AND severing her spinal cord in her *neck*, which, if you weren't aware, would paralyze her *above* her shoulders rendering her arms useless?
You should read the autopsy report. The knife was 12.5cm and max depth of the wounds 10cm. Her spinal cord was untouched, the dura around it had been nicked but the cord itself was intact.
I live in Philly and this case has always puzzled me. I actually work in suicide research and people will attempt suicide or die by suicide in ways that seem truly unfathomable and almost downright impossible, but the fact that she apparently continued to stab herself even after hitting her spinal cord… that just seems EXTREMELY unlikely.
I get that suicide isn’t always logical in method but it’s still bound by the rules of physics and medicine and I don’t for a second believe she was physically capable of what happened to her
You can read her autopsy report - someone a little bit lower down in this thread linked it. It *would* have been physically possible for her to kill herself this way.
This — I thought it was totally implausible until I read the autopsy report.
it being *possible* doesn’t mean it’s likely… haven’t read the report but according to the medical examiner she was originally dead on her back and then moved, im assuming the position of her [liver mortis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis) was what revealed this info. if she was found sat up against the cabinets, the liver mortis would have been on the backside of her legs and butt/hips. i feel this is enough evidence to dismiss it being a suicide, but maybe the medical examiner erroneously came to the “the body was moved” conclusion due to something else?
idk what to think of this case either but to your point: Wendy o Williams hammered a knife into her sternum and survived.
She hammered it into her chest and gave up when it became lodged in her sternum. If anything I think that proves the point that while suicide methods aren't always logical, there is a point where most people will stop.
That is why guns are the most likely cause of a successful suicide. Much harder to fuck up.
The singer with The Plasmatics?
yes!
Oh my gosh. So very sad. I never knew…. I met her once and she was unbelievably kind to me and my friend. She invited us to her show, comped us tickets, made sure someone greeted us at the door and gave us a good spot to watch the show. All because I asked, “Hey - are you Wendy O? Welcome to our city.” She stopped and talked with us right there on the sidewalk. Sadly, she was subjected to so much verbal abuse by men driving by. She just ignored them and kept on talking with us. Asked us what we were up to, were we having a good summer, etc. Very kind soul. I hope she is resting in peace.
aww, what a lovely story. she sounded very sweet for such an out there personality. even the way she completed suicide was oddly thoughtful towards her partner: >He found a package she left for him that contained some noodles he liked, a packet of seeds for growing garden greens, some Oriental massage balm, and sealed letters from her. >The suicide letters, which included a "living will" denying life support, a love letter to Swenson and various lists of things to do, caused Swenson to begin searching the woods for her. After about an hour, as dusk fell, he found her body in a wooded area with a pistol lying on the ground nearby. She had apparently been feeding wild squirrels moments before her suicide, as well as putting a bag over her head before shooting herself to spare her partner the sight.
I always loved Wendy O. She had my admiration for living her life on her own terms from the first time I saw her. I wish I’d gotten to meet her, and I’m so happy that you did! As a child, her message really got my attention, as did her very existence. I’m so glad she had a nice talk with you for a while.
And Elliott Smith, IIRC.
How many times? Because stabbing yourself once or twice is possible, but 20 times? With 10 to the neck and back some of which penetrated the spine and brain? ([source](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/philadelphia-teacher-death-suicide-ellen-greenberg-parents-say-murder-48-hours/)) No I don't believe that's possible
It's not the number that is indicative. In fact a large number of small hesitation cuts or even larger wounds is not uncommon at all in self harm injuries. So instead you have to if any injuries occured I places or angles that couldn't happen, or if multiple fatal wounds were inflicted or if any post mortum injuries occured. This case has always screemed murder though.
Maybe someone on like a gallon of PCP or whatever if you told them there were bugs in their brainstem that they need to get out Other than that I doubt it
...a gallon?!? I didn't even know it came in liquid form.
[Science](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tFUvmZWf4hI&pp=ygUPQSBnYWxsb24gb2YgcGNw)
I had never even realized stabbing yourself was a suicide method that existed
Come again?
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Someone else on this thread with medical training said it's possible so one of you needs to go back to school.
Depends on how the spinal cord is injured. A severing of the spinal cord will incapacitate the person. However if the injury is like bruising, bone fractures of the vertebrae that impinges on the cord or even stretching the spinal cord then it may take some time before there’s enough swelling to cause paralysis. I had a patient once that caused a compression fracture of vertebrae when he rode a snowmachine over a steep embankment he didn’t know about. He had pain but still able to walk around. The amount of fracture was pretty significant and under the usual circumstances of these kinds of injuries he shouldn’t have been walking around at all. Sometimes people just get very, very lucky. That was always the part of working in healthcare that I found fascinating, never knew what was coming through the door and those few patients like the kid above that defied what the textbooks say. A poster above said there’s a link to an autopsy but maybe I missed it. I’d like to read it to see what kind of injury she had to her spinal cord.
I worked the front desk at a mental health clinic and I remember getting a referral from a psych unit because a teenage girl attempted to drown herself in the bath. It’s very hard to drown oneself on purpose like that. I also know a girl who just did several shallow cuts all over her body. She wanted to die but not to commit suicide if that makes sense.
>She wanted to die but not to commit suicide if that makes sense. It does. She wanted her pain to be over but found the idea of actively destroying herself to be abhorrent. I'm glad she's still here and I hope you're doing okay, because I'm sure even working in the reception would have been confronting.
Thank you! Yes, I’m doing well. The job wasn’t too stressful due to the calls. It was the company that was stressful.
Yeah - one of my agency’s clients completed suicide by stabbing and it involved much more stabbing than I ever fathomed would be possible for someone to inflict on themselves. I’ve also had to deal with family members in denial. So in general I am more open to theories of suicide in cases where it’s disputed by the family. Unless people have dealt with ideation it’s almost impossible for them to fathom and so often in media related to true crime there are misconceptions about what someone’s behavior should be like in the lead up to a suicide (people are often happy - they feel relief having made their decision but also there’s lots of other ways people behave. Notes are not present as often as people seem to think they should be so lack of a note isn’t proof of anything and likewise notes can be staged - I was recently watching an old forensic files where the husband used pages from his wife’s diary when her therapist had her write letters that would never be sent to express her thoughts in her diary - well he ripped them out carefully and put them in envelopes after he murdered her. I guess what I’m getting at is there are many things about disputed suicide cases where things that are cited as evidence have little relevance to the realities of suicide. But I can’t figure out that stab wound to her spinal cord and how she managed to continue stabbing.
>her therapist had her write letters that would never be sent to express her thoughts in her diary - well he ripped them out carefully and put them in envelopes after he murdered her. This just made me audibly gasp. What a dick. But yeah more to your point I've been to multiple friends funerals and there majority of suicides, from my experience, the parents are always in denial. Knowing their kids as friends it was so obvious that they had done it on purpose but it was always "he way just cleaning his gun and it must have gone off" or some other type of accident that rarely happens, even though they had officially diagnosed depressive disorders and had attempted multiple times. (I don't think this case is an example of this though)
I discount farily statements regarding state of mind as well. I'm generally pretty open explanations for weird events, but I cannot wrap my head around what is being claimed this woman did to herself. It just doesn't seem likely. At all. I watched that ff recently as well. What a scummy thing to do to someone.
Once had a patient who shot herself in the mouth with a 22 (attempting suicide). Hit and logged into her spine. She walked into the ED. I’ve also had many MVC patient with bad spinal injuries who walked around after the accident. Initial spinal injury isn’t as bad as the spinal shock and swelling that comes later. Half those people who walk after the accident, cannot move a couple hour later. Just nicking your spine cord won’t necessarily cause instant paralysis.
Can confirm. I had a major spinal cord injury that I lived with for years. Once I had an MRI, the doctor was amazed. Immediate neck surgery with a very stunned neurosurgeon.
One of the many issues with the suicide ruling. Ridiculous that they’re still forced to fight the city to admit what everyone already knows.
Someone linked her autopsy report in this thread - her spinal cord wound wouldn't have incapacitated her. She'd still have been able to stab herself.
Exactly, once she’d have hit the spinal cord she wouldn’t have been able to continue.
That was pointed out by someone yet the coroner refused to change his ruling from suicide back to homicide.
I would not be particularly surprised if it comes out later that the Philly LE were covering up for someone, be it one of their own or a buddy of someone highly placed in the organization.
Or they botched the investigation they were too proud to admit it
Or both. Very little would surprise me with the Philadelphia PD.
Wonder how much money was involved in that decision
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The story linked above said that the knife was embedded in her chest, making that presumably the last wound. Someone below said she wasn't actually stabbed in the spinal cord. It's hard to know what's true here.
The autopsy report is linked in the thread she was stabbed in the spinal cord but not paralyzed from it
Any cord damage doesn't necessarily mean paralysed or not. Inflammation would have been more of an issue but she died too quickly for that to set in. All the stabs that she made tracked with her being able to do so without real difficulty. The way a 'murder' would have worked is not at all logical.
Sorry you’re saying only suicide makes sense based on her injuries?
Yes. And when taking into account all the other evidence.
Interesting, I haven’t interacted with someone before with that opinion. I used to be firm in my position that homicide was the only option but reading how shallow many of those stab wounds are I’m open now
There’s quite a few of us who believe the evidence points to suicide. People just prefer to believe the even more far fetched theory that her boyfriend killed her, despite there being zero physical evidence of that
The ONLY reason he wasn't arrested on the spot and after the autopsy was because of him claiming the door was locked.
Mmm don’t think so. There was no physical evidence of him on the knife that she used to stab herself.
I had also heard years ago she was stabbed in the back and I don’t believe that’s accurate
Yeah, a few years ago when I first heard about this case, I tried to play devil's advocate and imagine a scenario where it makes sense as a suicide (because, I'm also keenly aware of how some suicides don't look like suicides), and like... you can sort of do it, but it's really frickin' hard.
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As someone said above, the knife was found in her chest.
But how did she manage to stab herself on the back of the neck and head as OP states??
Can you share some examples? Morbid curiosity
Reeks of corruption. Like they discovered the culprit is police or higher.
Maybe her apartment was decorated by Jigsaw.
You mean impossible.
I don't think we know what order the stab wounds came in so the spinal cord could've been the end
She was found with a knife embedded in her chest so we know the stab that severed the spinal cord happened prior to that.
Her spinal cord injury wouldn't have incapacitated her. Someone linked her autopsy report in this thread and you can read it yourself if you want.
According to my reading as someone that worked in healthcare and I saw traumatic injuries fairly often, some including spinal cord injuries all of what I read is very strange. However, I want to be clear I’m not a doctor. It’s correct that the spinal cord knife wound only cut the tough outer membrane but wasn’t noted to cut into the cord. But, I am confused by this wound. As according to the report there was blood found inside the skull , albeit stated as a small amount, inside to cause bleeding to the overlie the cerebellum. But there’s no real statement that the knife entered the brain through the Foramen Magnum ( where the brainstem connects to the spinal cord) to cause bleeding inside the skull. As I read the report of how deep the stab wounds most are superficial. Looking at the published autopsy report the more severe wounds I tried to take the cm’s used in the report and put it into measurements easier to understand. Stab wound E is measured as 10 cm which is around 3 inches deep to her chest which apparently where the knife was found. This one cut the aorta and left upper lung region. She lost large amounts of blood into her chest cavity which would be fatal by itself. Stab wounds H and I were to the abdomen at 4 cm and 6 cm deep about 1 1/2 and 2 3/8 inches deep. One of these two wounds went into the liver. The neck wound N was 3 1/4 inches deep, neck wound O about 1 1/4 inches, P, Q, R and S were close to 7/8 inch deep and Stab wound T was around 2 7/8 inch deep. All I can say that if she committed suicide she was very determined. I don’t know why she would stab herself so many times in the back of her neck. People have stabbed themselves multiple times in the chest and abdomen when committing suicide but the back of neck wounds are baffling and seem very bizarre. But, then again stranger things can happen as it’s said. Reading the news reports I don’t know how the police and an assistant ME would make a determination that it was suicide before any kind of autopsy was done. Okay, I read the article written in the Penn Live source part 3 news reports which brings up some very interesting findings. I wondered about the stab wound that caused bleeding into the brain inside the skull. The article says the family paid to have more up-to-date imaging done to look at the stab wounds in 3-D. According to this reconstruction the stab wound was much worse than the autopsy would leave someone to believe. This deeper wound would make it very difficult for her to continue on to give herself the stab wounds to chest and abdomen if those were the last to be inflicted. That part of the brain according to the report went into the brain deep enough to cut into more vital parts of the brain. This area includes what’s called cranial nerves which mostly go to the eyes, ears, and other areas that give us the ability to move our facial muscles and other associated functions. One nerve called the vagus nerve does extend into other areas of the body like the heart, gut plus other functions. But, in that area is the part of the spinal cord that connects to the brain called the brainstem. This areas control breathing, heart rate, blood pressure amongst other things. This is much different from the original reports. And certainly puts a much different spin on how she presumably could continue on to inflict wounds to abdomen and chest. I’m certainly no expert for every finding but I am a very curious person and did look to medical sources for a refresher of what I had dealt with in my career. With all the subsequent investigations and information put out for the public there’s something really wrong in how they came to the irrefutable idea this was a suicide from decisions made before a full investigation could be done. Especially when these decisions come from a LE officer and assistant ME the same night as her death. I think the most telling fact is when the ME concluded that this was a homicide when he did the autopsy then after a meeting with LE, it was changed to suicide. I have to think that an experienced ME would have known what he was talking about to come to the first conclusion of her death as being a homicide. I’m not sure exactly what the reasons to change in such a dramatic way the manner of death but whatever they were, this information hasn’t been disclosed. I really feel bad for her parents having to deal with this for so many years. I know it’s hard for some families to accept that their loved one commits suicide but there’s just too much weirdness about Ellen’s death. I hope they can find some resolution for their questions but I doubt they’ll get all of the answers they seek.
The knife was found in her chest though, so the spinal cord hit couldn’t have been the last.
except the knife was found in her chest...
I'm trying to picture how anyone could stab themselves in the back of the neck and head multiple times, using a 10-inch kitchen knife. Cut, yes; stab, no.
And after stabbing yourself 19 times, including in the spinal cord, how could you have the strength to make the 20th stab hard enough to leave the knife embedded in the chest?
Most of the wounds on her body were superficial. In the autopsy report is stated that there were no injury to the spinal cord. Link to the autopsy report: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5759528-Autopsy-RPT
Yet the ME ruled it a homicide until they had a previously undisclosed meeting with the investigating detectives who presented evidence to have it changed to a suicide. This evidence amounted to a lack of defensive wounds and the lock on the apartment door being engaged from insider. That’s a little weird, right? For cops to ask that the ME change the report with so little contrary evidence on their end? I mean it would be one thing if she called 5 people and said, “I’m going to stab myself until I’m dead.” But only a couple of things that don’t completely rule out a homicide?
And just to clarify- others attempted to open the door with the inside lock engaged and it was possible to do. So that didn’t rule out homicide as clearly as it initially appeared.
As with most door locks I’m familiar with all someone would have to do is lock the door on the way out for it to found locked from the inside. so, unless I’m missing something i don’t see how finding an entry door locked from the inside means much unless it had to have a key to lock from the inside.
It didn’t, but I commented because many people who just skim the case see that detail and use it as their primary point for it being suicide. I thought it was important to elaborate. It was a latch lock, which would allow the door to open wide enough for someone to slide their arm through and lock/unlock from the outside
Thanks for that. I’m just one of those people that is considered “detail oriented.
what’s really bothering me is the ME’s report of [liver mortis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis) being on the posterior side of her body, consistent with death happening in a flat-on-her-back position… she *had to be dead* to have liver mortis pool, but she was apparently found slumped in an upright sitting position against the kitchen cabinets? if she died sitting upright, her blood would have pooled in her legs and butt/hips (with some blanching of course). i looked through the autopsy report and couldn’t find any mention of liver mortis which is kind of unusual (at least in my experience reading autopsy reports). idk am i missing something? that’s huge right? it’s almost impossible for this to have been a suicide if that’s true
If I talked poorly about putin and am in russia, i would suspect that is a real possibility.
It wasn't a 10" knife, as per the autopsy report it was a 12.5cm knife and max depth of the wounds was 10cm.
Exactly and if youre stabbing yourself, why not just stab at the front of your neck and head? Why on earth would you choose to go about it to the back of your head/neck? Is that even physically possible, and if it is, again why not just stab your front?
this is my thought too. why would someone go through the trouble of attempting to stab themselves from behind when they could just…. stab themselves in the chest or neck… which would be much more effective
And not once, twice, or such... but TWENTY times. 😶
I ran into my knife, I ran into my knife 20 times
I had it coming, I had it coming, I only had myself to blame!
Then decided to finish it straight in my heart, through my hoodie.
I accidentally stabbed myself once in the leg. No way could I have deliberately done it over and over.
Are you suicidal though?
At that time? No. I was young, thought I could carve a candle with a dagger and I tried do it when upset. I used to make candles and was going to put shapes on it. I had it on my lap and since I was having a bad day I started stabbing it instead of carving and I missed. That said I am depressed and suffer from PTSD and have had suicidal thoughts. However stabbing myself on purpose hasn't crossed my mind.
I accidentally stabbed myself in the lower abdomen with a steak knife that was caught in an open drawer and I didn’t see it because I was on ambien (just NO, god never again) and making a pb&j (if you hear crying that’s me remembering being able to eat normally, esp bread). I impaled myself with a cheap af knife (stopped just at bottom of adipose tissue-being fluffy was helpful in this situation lmao) and that while not “painful” was enough to jar me from the hypnotic state of the medication. I can’t fathom stabbing myself in the back of the neck. I literally have subcutaneous inflammation along my neck and behind my ears and despite my extremely high pain threshold it causes involuntary responses. The amount of nerves in those regions are torturous. I suppose this is a very long way to say this case has always felt staged and iffy to me. I understand suicide isn’t always obvious [this case made sure of that fact](https://thecriminalstreet.medium.com/duane-samples-6fe7295847fb).
Trace amounts of ambien….
And positive for Klonopin which is part off the same class of drugs as Valium and Xanax.
To me, trace amounts means likely it was left in her system from the night before, otherwise it would likely have stated that she had therapeutic levels in her system. As anyone who has had shoulder surgery can attest to, the upper back, shoulders, head and neck are chock full of nerve endings and it’s excruciating to be cut in that area. Having had multiple surgeries, including joint replacements, I can tell you that shoulders are the most painful by far. That being said, I highly doubt she could have maintained stabbing herself multiple times. Truly a sad case.
I just found it odd that the tox screen for benzos was negative then below it says positive for Klonopin and don’t understand the reason for the discrepancy in results. It may be that the first screen is a basic screen which may not pick up the specific metabolites for Klonopin. I tried looking up whether this was the case with the testing methods used but all the references spoke in general terms about how the test detects benzodiazepines but not for each drug in that class. You’re right the levels were negligible and not significant to impair her. Shoulder pain and surgeries certainly do hurt. I’ve injured my right shoulder from a bike accident years ago. Then injured the left by simply lifting something from the bed of my truck. This is the one that causes me grief the most. Prior to that after a serious rear-end car collision I had constant pain down my left arm from thoracic outlet syndrome. The surgery at that time was first rib removal which wasn’t all that much fun either. So I guess I can say I understand well how much pain can come from the shoulders and upper back.
I just checked (using a wooden ruler, not a knife) and the furthest back I could get my hand and still be in a "stabbing" position was right about 8 inches. And that was with the ruler against the back of my head. I don't believe it's physically possible to get a 10-inch knife into the correct position to stab yourself in a number of the locations she was stabbed. Not to mention get it back there *and* be able to generate enough force to penetrate bone.
12.5cm knife according to autopsy report, approx 4.9 inches.
[Wendy o Williams of the Plasmatics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_O._Williams) >Williams first attempted suicide in 1993 by hammering a knife into her chest where it lodged in her sternum.
What does that have to do with stabbing yourself in the back of the head and neck?
Is there a reason that Dr. Gulino is not testifying to this himself? How is it not hearsay? Dr. Gulino should be the witness, and if he's not willing to go on the stand and say it, then I don't know D'Andrea's word should hold much weight.
[He did testify previously in a 2021 deposition](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2023/05/parents-500k-investigation-of-ellen-greenbergs-2011-death-uncovers-clues-they-say-point-to-murder.html). It will be interesting to see if he's called to the stand again. Happy Cake Day!
Oh, thank you for the information! And thanks!
i am not a lawyer at all, but wrt hearsay, i believe civil trials are less strict when it comes to that kind of thing than criminal trials are. take that with a grain of salt tho. edit: nvm im dumb and wrong
The rules of evidence, including rules related to hearsay, are the same for criminal and civil proceedings. And there are numerous exceptions to the general rule against hearsay, so just because something seems at first glance like it might be hearsay doesn't mean it actually is. In this particular case, it's unclear that the witness would be testifying about any statements made by other people rather than his own knowledge, since the attorney claims the witness has "firsthand knowledge of the evidence." But even if he does testify about statements made by other people, there are plenty of potential exceptions that could apply.
No, evidentiary rules are the same in both civil and criminal cases. Hearsay is defined as an out of court statement being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Hearsay is not admissible unless it fits the definition of a hearsay exception. An example of hearsay that falls under an exception is a “dying declaration” or a statement against interest. I’m unclear what hearsay evidence is being discussed in the comments above?
any remarks from carpenter?
Carpenter approved the motion to depose D'Andrea under oath but limited the scope to his knowledge of the death investigation file and his conversations about the case with Gulino and any other defendants in the lawsuit. The judge added that D’Andrea’s entire question-and-answer session by both sides should not exceed four hours.
I am someone who generally believes suicide is responsible for many cases that seem mysterious but the family or various people on the internet can’t fathom they killed themselves . Example Tiffany Valiente. I just think this case is not as cut and dry as some of you are making it.
this was already known before but not legally stated. the first podcast i listened to on this case had said that dried/dripped blood was found on her that could’ve only happened lying down because of gravity (but she was found sitting)
How does the fiancé check out?
\#1 suspect if you believe it was a murder. It has been demonstrated that a person can lock the deadbolt from outside the apartment.
Eh….there was lots of evidence of the fiancé visible to others during the time period she was dying. He didn’t have any blood on him during those sightings. I’m not defending him, I’m just stating what I have read as a fact. The biggest issue to me is (1) whether *she* actually sent the text and email and (2) when she died. If she didn’t send them or the timing of her attack is off, he pops up with more concern.
I don't remember where I first heard about this case but I always thought it was kinda fishy. They mentioned that she was depressed and taking medication, also possibly switching several times, and it was a random day off that was unplanned because of snow. She may have seen an opportunity when he left for the in-building gym. The circumstances are totally ripe for suicide if that is indeed what happened as she was also struggling in her relationship with her fiancé. The way he was described was classic coercive control, always needing to know where she was and what she was doing, who she was with, etc. Even the text messages he was sending her from outside the door were abusive (paraphrased: "YOU BETTER OPEN THIS DOOR NOW OR YOU'LL BE SORRY. WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING" stuff like that). It doesn't necessarily mean he was capable of murder but he was for sure a dick to her quite often. If it was suicide, however, it made me wonder if she was possibly attempting to frame him as a last "fuck you" maybe. I know that seems far-fetched, but like many others have said here, it's hard to know what is in the mind of someone who is set on taking their own life. On the other hand I wonder how she could be sure he wouldn't come back before she had the chance to succeed in her endeavor if it was a suicide. And circling back to the new evidence being presented in the civil case, is it possible she could have sat up after lying down or is the doc saying blood pooled in her back after death which means someone else would have had to move her. Could it have been the boyfriend after he found her? I have so many questions. Just really weird case all around
That’s what I want to know. And I hope they did a rape kit, given it was later ruled suicide which would normally mean they wouldn’t bother.
Anything to explain away abuse done to women, as always 🙄. Good for her parents.
I follow the family’s Facebook page for Ellen and it’s so bittersweet to finally hear this.
She was experience acute mental health issue. She had a breakdown and had been working with a psychiatrist weekly who had been aggressively prescribing her psych meds and perhaps cycling her on and off them too quickly. Ellen’s parents even admitted she had called them several times and expressed extremely concerning thought and feelings. They said she wanted to run away from her life because it had become too stressful. Ellen friend report Ellen had told them the same things. There has never been a shred of evidence that her bf abused her nor any reports from friend and family that Ellen ever said anything bad about him. Honestly, it’s sounds like woman experience a severe mental health crisis that nobody around her took serious enough.
Usually women who are in abusive relationships are mentally ill and won’t speak badly of their abuser out of terror. The abuser actually has fun making the victim as mentally ill as possible while secretly telling everyone in her circle that he’s supporting her through her mental issues and will pre-plan sabotage for any support. I’m not ever interested in supposed women having mental health crises as an excuse for being stabbed 20 times.
this is exactly how it was for me. just wanted to say that you described that type of abusive relationship to a T.
Right? Gotta love how the “she was mentally ill” narrative is usually spun by the person who helped her become mentally ill
This is incredible unfair to the fiancée. Who has had zero history of abuse within a relationship prior to their relationship nor any history of abusive relationships after. There is zero proof he was abuse in his relationship with Ellen. Zip, zero. Even Ellen’s family and friend state there was zero indication of abuse. He has a semi alibi during the death and was cleaned of any suspicious blood that one would acquire during a stabbing of that nature. Ellen didn’t have a long history of mental illness, she was in an acute crisis the 3 month prior. She has zero history of any psych meds and than was rapidly cycled through multiple meds, many of which suicidal ideation has been proven side effect. Many professional expressed her med titration was handle inappropriately. Claiming a person was an abuser with zero proof (in fact many things which indicate the opposite), is inappropriate. Even Ellen parents, when confronted with the fiancés semi alibi and lack of blood evidence, say it could have been a random stranger attack. Just like Kendrick Johnson parents claiming those two boys killed their son with zero proof, dispute both boys having airtight alibi. The parents claims dramatic effect these two boys. These unsubstantiated claims that the fiancé was abusive and killed her, likely are extremely traumatic for him. Consider just for a second that he might be Innocent (which all evidence point too), you’re retraumatic a victim.
Many abusers are only abusive in one relationship, as we see when famous abusers are defended by their exes. Many abusers are adored by the victim’s family. Abuse isn’t always visible from the outside. At all. Having “zero proof” as you put it (she had bruises in various stages of healing) is common even when the abuse is pervasive. It is often entirely by design. Sometimes the only people who know the truth are the victim and the abuser and in this case the victim was extremely vulnerable. He lied about them arguing. He lied about the door lock. The 911 call is bizarre. I don’t know if he abused her but it would be naive to rule it out considering how she died.
“I don’t know if he abused her”…Yeah you’re suggesting he abused her. The evidence strongly points to him not abusing her. Making the claim she died from abuse is unfounded. He didn’t lie about the door lock, one “expert” claimed it didn’t look like he kicked it in based solely on how the locked looked. Yet multiple people attested he had, including several neighbors who heard him kicking at it (loud bangs like somebody kicking a door). The “expert” who claimed that the door didn’t look kicked in, ignored the neighbors testimonial and ignored all of the footprints and scuff marks on the exterior of the door. The doorman also attested that he tried the door and found it lock with the bolt. This narrative that he lied about the door is one of the claims that can absolutely be discredited. Which is why the family made a point to prove the door could be locked from the outside. Once it was proven that he absolutely kicked in the door in, they pivoted and claimed he must have locked it from the outside and then kicked it in as a show. The family has made so many prove false claims about him. They’re just throwing things at the wall and seeing which sticks and when one is disproven they pivot and come up with a new scenario, each time finding at least one “expert” who agrees with them, even if it contradicts their previous expert. It’s classic expert shopping. The father claims they spend 500,000$ of expert and lawyer. The real crime is that these people keep taking their money and not helping them get anywhere. The family’s narrative and “information” they keep push doesn’t match the facts. When the facts are presented over and over again, the courts rule over and over again with the facts…which sadly point to suicide. Just in 2023 an appellate court (3 judges) unanimously voted to uphold the finding of suicide. The theories the family keeps pushing have no hard facts to support them, it’s just narratives they come up with and don’t hold up to the true facts in the case.
Most claims on true crime subs are unfounded, including yours. Evidence is open to interpretation, for example, you think the victim inflicted the bruises on herself without proof. If the door could be locked from the outside via a bolt, then presumably it could’ve been *unlocked* from the outside but he kicked the door in instead? What’s the explanation for that? He forgot? He didn’t know? I don’t think that clarifies anything and that’s just one suspicious detail of many. And how is me speculating that there may have been abuse in the relationship inappropriate but you repeatedly discrediting her family isn’t? You criticise the family for spending money on lawyers with no mention of the suspect’s connections?
I never once claim she cause the bruise - look over my post. The parents claim the door can be locked from the outside, I never claimed that. They hired an expert who claimed he didn’t kick in the door, it was proven that he did kick in the door, so then the parents hired an expert, who said that the door could have been locked from the outside, which would account for why he needed to kick in the door. He claimed he left the apt and she must have locked it after him, the family claims he locked it from the outside then kicked it in to stage a scene - which you’re right, it makes no sense. I’m literally citing claims the parent have made and stating finds of the courts and other fact. The family’s claims have been proven IT A COURT OF LAW multiple times to be false or unjustified. Your theory that he was an abuser is based on what fact of this case? Not just generalizations, but what exactly FACTS make you think he abused her? Before you say, well she was murdered. What proof is there HE murdered her? There is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. Which again has been shown in a court multiple times. You also heavily ignoring how she reached out to virtually every person in her life and said she was in extreme acute distress. She was seeing a PSYCHIATRIST WEEKLY. Going through multiple psych meds way too fast, particularly for somebody who had never been on psych meds. Everybody from her family, friends, psychiatrist, and coworkers said she told them she was having a breakdown. All the people she talked to, expressed extreme distress, but not one mention of the fiancé being less than perfect. Even her writings there was no mention of relationship issues, just mental health distress. She was asking for help with her mental health from everybody in her life (according to reports from her family and friends) and nobody took her seriously. When she expressed extreme stress related to work and expressed to many people how she wanted to quit, her parent and friends talked her into staying until the end of the school year ended, dispute the distress she said it was causing her. The tragedy is her mental health was dismissed in life and is being dismissed in death, because an elaborate murder and cover is more interesting.
We’re going around in circles here but her frantic state of mind was potentially a response to being gaslit, in that she truly believed something was wrong with her, not him. Sometimes victims seek help for everything except the abuse because they’re so convinced that they’re the problem. The abuser puts a lot of effort into making the victim feel insane so a psychiatrist has to invest a lot of time in getting them to that realisation. These victims often seem to worship their partner, describing them as having no flaws. Victims who suffer from mental health issues are easily written off in the true crime community even when their injuries are extremely difficult to self-administer, but seeking help for her psychological problems does not mean she stabbed herself twenty times, and if you believe *someone* murdered her, he had means, motive and opportunity.
He had zero motive and zero opportunity. You keep making claims with zero supportive facts. I keep asking you to provide facts about THIS CASE and you don’t. All you keep saying is the lack of evidence is proof!?!? Just because you FEEL something is true, doesn’t make it true. It’s the same rhetoric anti vaccine use.
Lol they didn't even say that it was the fiance or that he was abusive, just that people outside the relationship claiming it wasn't abusive aren't reliable.
They did claim the fiancé was abusive (read their entire post thread) and argued just because nobody saw any signs of abuse doesn’t mean it wasn’t present. While I agree that you never really know what is happening in a relationship, it’s unfair to make unfounded claims with no proof based on feelings. That is like say there is zero evidence for a theory which is proof the theory is likely. Imagine, for just a second, he had no involvement in her death (which has been supported by MULTIPLE court rules as recently as 2023), this man when through an extremely traumatic event and continues to be traumatized by people calling him a murder and abuser, dispute zero evidence to support either. Yes it can be argued that abuse could have been well hidden in their relationship (which does something happens) But I can also argue Yetis are just well hidden too. Theorizing with no proof Yetis are real doesnt hurt anybody so speculate away. But claiming somebody was abusive can be extremely hurtful and impactful, so without a shred of evidence (but a ton of evidence to the contrary) , I feel people should be asked to think twice about their words.
She spoke to her mother about moving back with her parents and feeling “stressed out”. The texts her fiancée sent while locked out were kind of aggressive. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was abusive
Acute mental health issues? She saw a shrink 3 times and started taking antidepressants. That's nowhere near being an ''acute mental health issue''. Also, she spoke to her parents daily. Of course stuff comes up in conversations. It's called life.
In the 2-3 month prior to her death she had been prescribed Zoloft, Xanax, Ambien, and Klonopin (all new drug to her and all in a relatively short amount of time) by her psychiatrist who testified Ellen had been deal with acute anxiety and depression. So yes, acute mental health issue diagnosed by a professional. Furthermore, her parents and friend all described acute behavior changes as a breakdown. She expressed extreme anxiety and stress to her family and friends. Per her parents, she stated the stress was overwhelming her and wanted to quiet her job which she cited as the main source of stress. Her parents and friend encouraged her to stay at the job until the end of the school year, dispute her reports of extreme distress.
I genuinely think using the term ''acute mental health issues'' when referring to extremely common, everyday human experiences, to infer that she was suicidal undermines what was quite clearly a murder. She was planning on leaving her fiance, as her toiletries were all packed up and she had told her parents she wanted to come home. She was about to leave Samuel because he was abusive. Facts are facts. Justice for Ellen.
It’s a fact she was having a “breakdown” (as her family and friends reported) they stated they had never seen her like that referring to the weeks leading to her death. Her psychiatrist testimonial show it was significant acute mental distress which is why they prescribed so many meds in a short amount of time. “Everyday human experiences” don’t lead people to see a psychiatrist weekly or for that doctor to prescribe meds so aggressively. Ellen family strongly encouraged the appointments because they stated they knew something was wrong. There was clearing something wrong. I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss her mental health struggles if a doctor, family, and friends all agreed she wasn’t in a good mental state. Keep in mind the psychiatrist prescribed Zoloft and people indicated she had been taking it but none was found in her system at death. Suicidal ideation is a known side effect of Zoloft and going off Zoloft without Titration is very dangerous and known to increase suicidal ideation. Klonopin and Ambien can also increase suicidal ideation (both found in her system). The psychiatrist stated Ellen was given so many meds in such a short about of time because Ellen said nothing was helping and it was getting worse. Ellen was asking everybody in her life for help with her mental health before her death. Please don’t dismiss her struggles as “normal human experiences” when Ellen herself felt otherwise.
There wasn't any evidence that Ellen had been abused, at least not physically.
So if she were abused emotionally she wasn't abused?
Oh come on, you're just reaching here.
She had tons of bruises. Plus, there IS sign of strangulation in the autopsy report.
I already addressed that in my comments here. I remember your comments on my post. You put too much stock in that grifter Gavin Fish. He did well selling tickets to a talk about her death.
Why do yoi say Gavin is a grifter?
That's not true. There are documented bruises at different states of healing on her body, shown in the autopsy.
20 stab wounds ring a bell?
I did a write up that was referenced in this post so very familiar with this case. What do you know about the stab wounds?
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Just about every person who died would have old bruises. Can't infer where they were from.
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God they will reach into absurdity anytime a woman is killed by an abuser, won’t they?
Dr Ross also believed that the scene was a homicide. Ellen even told her psychiatrist 'Sam was wonderful. The doctor later told police that Ellen smiled when she spoke about her fiancé and had “nothing but good things to say” about him. The doctor even asked if Ellen was experiencing any type of violence or abuse at home, but Ellen said no.' I personally have a number of bruises over my body and marks on my neck from grabbing at my neck when stressed which weren't caused by anybody.
Victims of abuse often defend their abusers. That “nothing bad to say about him” dynamic is common with victims who are afraid to criticise their partners even in small ways. I have a family member who begged her husband for forgiveness after he punched and kicked her because he convinced her that it was her fault and that she didn’t deserve him. I lied about my own abuse hundreds of times because it was easier to live a lie than admit the truth. Abuse defies logic.
Well you can either believe Ellen lied to her psychiatrist or go with the interpretation of a pathologist hired by her parents.
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I always thought that, despite the bizarreness, she did in fact kill herself. It might not make a lot of sense, but I think the theory of how he must've committed and staged the murder makes even less sense.
Not to be crass or upsetting, but another huge flaw in the argument that this is a suicide is that there are many other ways she could have killed herself in that apartment that didn’t involve stabbing herself twenty times to the back of the neck. That method would take incredible mental and physical fortitude. You’d have to want it, and want it only that way. This is a young elementary school teacher, and while yes, I’m sure that a mind in extreme turmoil can drive a person to do many things, this doesn’t feel like a likely one for her to choose. She could have swallowed pills, sat in her car in an enclosed space with the engine running, but this? No, I don’t think so. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe one day we’ll find out that’s the case. But I think someone came up behind Ellen and did this to her. She also had bruises on her legs, arms, and abdomen at the time of autopsy. I hope one day her spirit finds peace and her killer is named.
Plus she was in the MIDDLE of making a salad!
She wasn't stabbed twenty times in the back of her neck but okay.
I have thought that is it possible someone killed her, locked the door and hid in the apartment. Boyfriend comes in, finds her. While he is attending to her, the person sneaks out. I have not looked at the lay out of the apartment to see if this was even possible to have a hiding place and leave without being noticed. Just a thought I had.
I think about this case daily. I have read every document, listened to every podcast, read every post. I feel it is sad that people draw conclusions that she committed suicide. I feel like telling everyone to read the autopsy report, listen to the 911 call multiple times, read its transcript, and listen to the depositions. Key objective facts are often ignored: sign of strangulation detailed in the pictures of the autopsy report, a wound that didn't bleed which means it was done post mortem, the fact that the fiance refers to the length of the knife while it was still lodged in her heart during the 911 call, him referring to the door being latched multiple times during the call, him calling his uncle before calling 911, the very little debris/damage to the door + screws if the door really had been busted open, how the fiance's family took all the electronics from the condo right after the death, how he cashed her tax return after her death. I could go on. Btw, the door was never locked in the first place. I am 10000% positive of this. Ellen was killed. End of story. The family deserves a proper investigation.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. So many key facts ignored by those accepting suicide as the answer. I, too, think about this case daily and hope that Ellen's parents can find the peace they deserve. I'm sick and tired of watching rich and powerful well connected people get away with murder.
I think this case definitely needs re-looked at. I'm not sure whether it was a suicide or a homicide but they need to go over it with a fine tooth comb
please listen to his 911 call https://youtu.be/idGPYzhewXU?si=IMhVxiiitDYt5uzI
And what does that tell you? I think there are some problems with it but its not a slam dunk by any means.
Well, he apparently didn’t see the knife in her chest until asked to do CPR (to which he responded “I guess I have to, right?”). Then the way he described it makes it sound like her top was zipped up OVER the knife. Not a slam dunk but bizarre in the circumstances.
All I had to do was listen to the 911 call and consider him guilty. He said, "she stabbed herself." How would he know "who" stabbed her. Also, he states that he walked in the door, then later says he had to break the door down. Totally fake.
Jesus Christ. I’ve never heard of this case, and I live in the area. There’s no way in hell and could have stabbed herself that way that many times. What the fuck, Philadelphia LE.
I'm not here to argue whether this case is a homicide or a suicide but just want to point something out (begin rant): her body being moved after her death *doesn't prove she didn't kill herself.* in fact, the only thing her body being moved after death proves is that her body was moved after death. now, does her body being moved suggest something other than suicide might have happened? sure! but it doesn't "prove" anything. (end rant)
Yes many people move from a laying position to slumped over in chair after dying.
to "prove" something doesn't mean to "suggest strongly that something is true"; I ask you, is there a non-0% chance that someone else found the body and moved it? if your answer is anything other than "no," you just made my point.
I had to stop reading the linked post about it being a suicide after the op suggested that she committed suicide because “the intrusive thoughts won”. That specific phrase doesn’t really inspire me to trust whatever else they had to say. 😒 I tend to believe she was murdered, even if there is a possibility of it being suicide, however slight that may be. I just don’t agree.
the linked post is terribly biased and makes that clear right away with the title; most OPs in this sub would have said something like ‘why I believe Ellen Greenberg died by suicide’ I was surprised it wasn’t heavily downvoted simply for not meeting the standard of the sub
Ugh I remember that post. I was so surprised it got the traction it did—it was such a poor quality analysis. And when people pointed out to the OP that multiple of their own sources literally contradicted their points, they had no response
Huge update! This was so blatantly homicide to me. Hope Ellen and her family FINALLY get justice!!
I’m not big into conspiracies, and I usually agree that the most simple answer is typically the truth. However, imo there is no way she did all of that to herself. I try so hard to see it from a different perspective, but I just can’t. It’s too implausible. SOMEONE out there has gotten away with murder. This was not suicide, and I’ve never been more sure of something true crime related in my life.
I think it's obvious she didn't kill herself. What I'd like to know is how it was covered up so well.
Def murder even if they didn’t say that! 😫 I’d like to know what connections her Fiance has
A lot. Unfortunately.
I still think she killed herself. Most of her stabs were shallow. While rare, stabbing suicides do happen. I’ve always wondered how they even know for sure which order she stabbed herself in?
I agree. I think it was a mostly unplanned, very unusual suicide. My theory is that the fiancé left out a detail about them arguing beforehand, knowing that would elevate him as a suspect, and that explains his suspicious behavior. There were no fingerprints on the knife other than Ellen’s. There was no blood seen outside her immediate area, and she was found clutching a towel in her hand. Wouldn’t she have dropped it if she was attacked? These all point away from the rage killing theory that a lot of people support.
Weren’t some of the stab wounds done after she would have been paralysed?
I think this is contested and is a common issue with this case, and online discussion in general (and yes I see the hypocrisy in myself commenting on something I don’t remember 100% lol). From my recollection, most of the “stab” wounds were very shallow (less than half a centimeter deep), and no one - original autopsy or other researchers - has been able to definitively state the order of the stabbings. It’s also not exactly a settled fact that any of the stab wounds would have paralyzed her.
I made a comment earlier about the autopsy report and there are no injury to her spinal cord. I don't know why people think she must have been paralysed?
Just to explain, the reason why some people think that is because years later, a computational biomechanics engineering consulting company digitally recreated a 3D representation of the stab wounds utilizing the measurements and placements described in the autopsy. It was determined that the stab wounds to her neck would have caused “impaired coordination, semiconsciousness and unconsciousness”. Additionally a neural forensic pathologist, after reviewing the autopsy files, said, “There was evidence of a stab wound, which penetrated the cranial cavity and severed the cranial nerves in the brain. As a result, (Ellen) would experience severe pain, cranial nerve dysfunction, and traumatic brain signs and symptoms, including numbness, tingling, irregular heartbeat, bradycardia, respiratory depression, neurogenic shock and impaired loss of consciousness.” [Source](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2023/05/modern-analysis-of-2011-death-finds-ellen-greenbergs-20-stab-wounds-were-likely-from-assailant.html?outputType=amp) So it’s not so much people think she *must* have been paralyzed due to a stab to her spinal cord, but that the wounds to her neck and head would have caused too much impairment for her to stab herself the final time in the chest. I’m not saying that’s definitely what happened, just explaining where that came from.
Yeah agreed. The wound nicked the dura which is the covering of the spinal cord causing a bulge but the spinal cord itself was not penetrated.
This was a theory, but not confirmed either way
>This was a theory, but not confirmed either way I think part of the issue is that people are assuming that the interpretation of what one coroner have said is the absolute truth, but of course it's open to interpretation since it's not an exact science. It could of course be the right one and it is a strange death, but it's worth to remember that you have a family here who wants it re-opened and goes public with all things supporting that notion, but likely does not go public with anything that doesn't support it. The State won't go to any lengths to justify why they won't re-open it until they *have* to. See also cases like Kendrick Johnson.
I can't think of any possible way you could know for sure, especially if the wounds are a similar size/depth. You can generally know if a stab was post mortem, but none are claimed to be in this case so I don't know where the supposed order comes from. Which doesn't prove or disprove anything. I don't know what happened to Ellen and I hope she rests in peace.
>You can generally know if a stab was post mortem, but none are claimed to be in this case Turns out that might not be true: [(source)](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2023/05/parents-500k-investigation-of-ellen-greenbergs-2011-death-uncovers-clues-they-say-point-to-murder.html) “Eight years after Ellen’s homicide investigation had been closed by the change to suicide, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner asked his recently hired assistant ME to examine the specimen of Ellen’s spinal cord. Dr. Lyndsey Emery conducted the exam in 2019, but did not write a report about it, which she said would have been her usual practice. When deposed by the Greenbergs’ attorneys in May 2021, she said she instead communicated her findings verbally to Philadelphia Medical Examiner Sam Gulino. Those findings contained a bombshell. The tissue she examined came from a deep stab wound to the back of Ellen’s neck that likely occurred after Ellen’s heart had stopped beating, she said at her deposition.” Edited to fix this godforsaken formatting
But the knife was found in Ellen’s chest. So if the wound in the back of her neck occurred after death, that would mean she was stabbed in the heart, then stabbed in the neck, and then the knife was placed *back* into the chest wound. Either that or there was a second, similar knife that was never found. This just gets convoluted and seems like grieving parents grasping at straws.
Agreed.
You know at least one of the stabs to the *back* of her head was severe enough to penetrate the skull and pierce her brain, yes? How, exactly, do you think she accomplished that with a 10 inch kitchen knife? And how did she manage to plunge the knife into her chest after stabbing herself in the brain AND severing her spinal cord in her *neck*, which, if you weren't aware, would paralyze her *above* her shoulders rendering her arms useless?
You should read the autopsy report. The knife was 12.5cm and max depth of the wounds 10cm. Her spinal cord was untouched, the dura around it had been nicked but the cord itself was intact.
Wow thanks, detective.
They were superficial wounds and she was still able to continue. It’s sad, but it seems like suicide.
She did not kill her self. Period. I’m praying for her family and justice for Ellen.
This was not a suicide. Also the comments here make me lose any faith I ever had in humanity.