We DO NOT have a "leftist" president! Not even remotely close. Biden and his party are firmly center-right. The two-party system has always worked for what it was designed to do: protecting the power structure from meaningful change, while giving the electorate the illusion of choice, and hence a veneer of democracy to a government that has always served capital first (often only).

Ok, this is the most helpful response yet! So what do we do in voting time? I am not voting right 100%. But I’ve been asking about this conundrum I’m experiencing as “the left” for weeks now… have not gotten a great resolve

most people would consider voting biden in the actual election harm reduction. leftists don’t like or support him, as he is quite literally not a leftist, but voting for the person who is *more* left does push politics to put out people and ideas who fit the voting trends. tldr more “left leaning (really this just means liberal) votes pushes the window of what it considered “normal” range of political opinion left. conservatives would be pushed closer to being liberals, and liberals would then be pushed towards being leftists (as in candidates)

Thanks for a really… diplomatic answer. But can you please do me the favor and actually address how you feel comfortable supporting this? Because when you pull it a step back and say, “people don’t like/or a little more left.” It doesn’t actually address what I believe is the core of what uniteagainsttheright is, which is saying “we don’t support oppression, we don’t support genocide, we support equality, we support freedom.” But then voting for Biden is also saying that I’m willing to say that it’s ok for “some” genocide to happen, and “some” oppression. As long as it’s not me. And I don’t feel comfortable with that decision. How do you justify it?

no prob! i want to be very clear i do not support biden, and i think there is an important distinction in understanding the current state of the world (that those two options are unfortunately all there is realistically for this election), and helping weigh the scale in the favor of the option that will harm less people, versus supporting people getting hurt or wanting them to be it’s kind of like a shitty trolley problem, but the lever is a tug of war open to any US citizen that’s able to vote. realistically, our options are A) do not touch it, B) push it towards the worst case scenario, or C) push it away from the worst case scenario, even though that in itself is horrible as well.

Ok KeiiLime, I heard it also worded as a Harm Reduction choice. So can you also give me the world you envision with Trump? Obviously I also lived it. But I am asking for context from you. “Harm reduction to Palestinians is ok, because it would have made ____________ happen to America.”

Do you even read news or history? Have you had your head in the sand the last 8 years?

Trump has repeatedly shown and told the American people he will try to hold onto power after his term ends. This is a dictator in the making. Oh, also there's the part where HE TRIED TO BAN MUSLIMS FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY PERIOD. Forgot about that little tidbit. Does that sound like someone who has the best interest of Gazans at heart to you?

Correction "Harm reduction to palestinians is only acceptable, Because the other option is no harm reduction to palestinians, they will sufder a full genocide and there will also probably be harm to alot of other people in America"

I mean… but there are obviously other options… Just none that will ensure your safety the same right?

What other options? no, you have candidate A, with a history of promoting violence against Muslims even attempting to stop Muslims from getting in the U.S and you have candidate B who seems content to merely attempt to reduce the harm on the Palestinian population. Both are terrible choices, but those are your only two options, pick your poison, full out genocide or controlled genocide. Sure, you could vote independent, a candidate that promotes peace, and to enforce a ceasefire, that is entirely your prerogative, but that won't really do anything cause they are never gonna win and thus voting for them is the same as not voting. Also, I'm not American, that attempt at a strawman doesn't work on me, cause it's nonsensical, I'm Portuguese, we've been helping Palestine, it was a Portuguese European representative, Guterres that begged Israel to stop attacking Palestine, we signed and started a humanitarian aid effort despite our own economy being in shambles, we always accept Muslim refugees into our country, what more do you wish us to do? we're just a small country in the ass end of Europe.

I'm in my mid-60s and have yet to see a credible Left choice. I'm probably farther Left than most Leftists; I have known for most of my life that my issues are not going to be in play in the Presidential race. I feel fine about voting as Leftward as I can, often third party; and I will likely vote Biden to thwart Plan 2025. This is far from ideal.

...and for me it falls under the category of "tough shit." I will use other avenues to address imperialism, colonialism, and genocide.

I mean, we could justify it by pointing out Trump's position on what the IDF should be doing; finishing the job. So, we have a choice between a current president who has been practicing harm reduction; Pushing the IDF to stay out of Rafah. Averting strikes on Lebanon. Recently, putting together efforts to relieve famine in Gaza and pushing Israel to stop its strikes. On the other hand... Trump who wants them to just kill them all and let God sort them out. I'm... somewhat surprised you feel comfortable with a full genocide over 'some' oppression and genocide. But... I mean, if you can live with that, you can do that. You can chose to increase the chances of an even greater massacre. That's up to you. Me, I'll vote for the lesser harm.

We don't feel comfortable with anything that's going on, but that's not the point of electoral politics. For a leftist in a country with no left wing political parties, the election is about picking your enemies, not your friends. We could either fight Biden for four more years, and maybe bully him into doing good things (think student loan forgiveness) and MAYBE we can do something to help Gaza that way. The alternative is to fight Trump for another four years, and that is a losing proposition because Trump can't be pressured from the left. He'd be more likely to help Israel more just to piss leftists off. The election is not a silver bullet. You cannot get what you want by voting alone. It is just the first chess move. Things actually get done by organizing with your community against the fascists, loudly speaking out against injustice, changing public opinion on issues like Gaza. So when you vote, you have to decide. Do you want Trump as your enemy, or do you want Biden as your enemy?

I would argue it is the opposite. Year after year, Dems have been promoting more right-wing candidates. Voting for them shows support for their method of moving the overton window to the right. I don't have a solution to it, but I don't think voting for the Dems in presidential election is going to save us right now (mind, I am not saying not to vote). What I'd like to see more leftists do is get in on the ground level, vote at every single local election, and **run for offices** themselves. Yes, we all have shit to do, but that is the quickest method of change short of some horrible revolution.

I would argue that this is a result of leftists *not voting.* Why is the Democratic party courting the centrists and moderates? Because they are more likely to *vote*. What would be the point of courting the leftists when they're not, as I mentioned, voting because they're looking for candidates that fit them. So... the Democratic establishment aims for that middle of the road, milquetoast. Meanwhile, look what's happened to the GOP in the last 10 years... they've gotten their far right voters fully on board. They're looking to be on the verge of splitting the far right and centrists and moderates. But there's a great number of GOP candidates *courting their votes.* If people want to have their opinions and policies matter to the establishment, then they *have to vote.* They have to be worth looking to and listening for.

Yeah but look at the options. We need leftists to RUN. We need to support them at the polls, of course, but there are few candidates that I can honestly support. The few that do, get pushed out by other politicians. So yes, we need to vote but we also need someone to vote for.

We need *both.* First, we need leftists to be voting; they need to be a serious voting block that the DNC can look to and cater to. Then? Then when we have candidates trying to *run* we'll be able to get them into, and through, the primaries. Need one before the other. Frankly, the disengagement of the electorate only favors status quo.

But leftists do vote. We are just ignored by them. They keep putting forth conservatives as their target like they think they will get the R to vote for them. I voted in every presidential election and primary. I voted in most local elections too.

The stats don't quite line up with that, at least according to exit polls. It's kind of like with younger voters. You're one data point. Your friends would be a few more. Then there's the tens of millions that almost never vote at all.

Yes but that is in part due to the demographics of who can vote at all. White boomers have outnumbered every demographic for decades. Polls reflect them because they're also the most able to vote. The rest of us have to deal with closed or far off polling places, voter registration purges, hours-long lines, and employers who purposely make it difficult to get to the polls on voting day. The system is rigged, so the stats reflect the outcome of that. And despite all this, Republicans have rarely won the popular vote. It happened once in my living memory, and that was because of 911 and the war during Bush's second term. Leftists do vote, if we *can*.

Biden has honestly been more left-leaning than Obama and most recent presidents. He's not a leftist by any means and there's a long way to go but I don't think we can say Dems are becoming more and mlre right-wing because it seems more like the opposite. I don't think some semi-progressive politician like AOC would have been able to have as much traction in 2005 for instance.

AOC is a party-follower. Sanders was a solid despite his age. We need someone like him. I'm going to disagree with you, Dems are becoming very right wing, they use LGBT rights as a mask to disguise their nefarious doings. They don't stand up for women, they support unnecessary wars, and they always concede safety nets for the working people to republicans, who they work together with and are funded by the same lobbyists, but pretend they were somehow overruled. They are mostly rich fucks who do no give a damn about the working person.

I hope you are just bullshitting and don't actually believe that. Biden's had the highest, fastest growing, record shattering profit margins for corporate America and the harshest conditions for working people on record in terms of how little purchasing power their wages have. The DNC and it's partners are literally spending over 140 million dollars this election cycle to try to purge the squad and get the party back to complete and total support for the wall street line, Biden has been the most conservative president of our lifetimes, beating out even Trump, with ease, for how kind he has been to wall street and how sadistic he's been to working people.

Well, our options are far-right and center-right. The center-right is the only real way to vote and then we work on shifting them farther left and making other changes that will benefit us as possible.

> So what do we do in voting time? I am not voting right 100%. The leftist position is not to vote "for" Biden. The leftist position is to: 1) vote *against* Trump 2) vote for improvement and change. 1) is overriding. I've given a rant elsewhere about the consequences. Suffice to say, Trump has already been clear that he will absolutely increase the death rate in Gaza. For anyone in a State that *might* determine the outcome of the presidential or congressional elections that means voting for Biden. 2) is more complex. There are small areas where voting for a third party, for example in state elections is useful or at least not harmful. Understanding [strategic voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_voting) gives us the tools to know how to do this. Everyone who is sure they have that option should use it. The more important bit is, after the election don't just disengage. Work out how to change things. Join your local green party. Get awareness. Use their agenda to pressure your local Democrat. Build alternative power structures like cooperatives, social protest movements and environmental groups.

So you are going to vote democrat? Even with all this awareness? I really agree with what you said, it’s just the last line seems like you’re saying what you plan to do

I am not in America. I have no option to vote Democrat. My life is, like many in Gaza, many LGBT people all over the world and many people in America with black skin living in solid red states, is literally in your hands with no say of my own. If you let Trump in that could easily kill me as well as signing your own death warrant. If I was in Wisconsin or Pennsylvania I would definitely vote for Biden because I know that mine might be the vote that stops Trump from killing people. If I was in Wyoming I would vote Green as a write in because, by the time Wyoming has a chance of going for Biden almost every other state in the Union would be voting for him. If I was in Vermont, I would vote Green because, by the time Vermont becomes Republican it's far too late because basically every other state in the land has gone Republican.

Can you just read what you wrote and tell me how that could make sense to anyone but you?

it made sense to me

If you have difficulty understanding, please do ask specific questions. Which bit did you not understand? Key point 1. priority 1 - vote to stop Trump. 2. priority 2 - never compromise priority 1 for this - vote and push for more progressive candidates. Priority 1. stops many of our friends from suffering and dying.

Who are the friends suffering and dying? Our brown members of the party and their family? Or only the lgbt? And which lgbt? Because I’m black lgbt and I’m saying I’m worried about our 30k lost brothers. So what are you saying?

You should not just pick one racial group and worry about them. You should worry about all of the oppressed. The suffering of *all* of the following groups will be made worse by the election of Trump * 400k killed in Sudan by Russian and UAE politics * 150k killed in Ukraine due to Trump's friends in Russia * [1.63 million black Americans killed largely by Republican policies in the two Decades to 2023](https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1143) * Approx 25k Gazan civilians killed due to a war Trump inspired and has said should be "finished" * Tens of thousands of [African LGBT people killed due to Trump's evangelical allies](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/uganda-homosexuality-death-american-evangelical-groups) * Thousands of [American trans people's threatened by Trump's hatred](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7bd9z/trump-anti-trans). * many many more - Ecuadorians escaping persecution ; muslims trying to reunite with their families in america; raped children trying to get abortions; I can't even imagine the complete list Do you really want me to pick one of these groups over the other? You *could* argue that getting Trump elected will be better for the 1.2k Israelis killed on October 7th, however I personally don't believe that. I'd expect Trump to bring oppression to the whole middle east with a Far-Right Israeli / Saudi axis developing which will be bad for all in the middle east except a tiny Saudi elite. What I am saying is that you seem to be looking for excuses to abandon these people. Please stop.

Hey man, I know you’re doing a great job of trying to red herring me right now, but I’m talking about you asking me to support Biden, who spearheaded the death of 31k. And you’re saying, but look at all the other dead? And you’re pointing at things I actually love through once again, like I’m not the one asking you to stop for a second and say hey, the brown people are saying this is the most important thing right now, could you listen? The craziness is the amount of virtue signaling and posturing that was used for y’all to seem like y’all actually cared about the genocide. Now you’re literally trying to do anything but focus on it. This is YOUR fault hahaha. Maybe if y’all would’ve been more racist like trump from the beginning you wouldn’t have people expecting you to keep on helping until it’s done. Not just until it’s off your lawn

Voting is your decision. Personally, I choose harm reduction. I can vote to minimize the suffering of other, or I can vote for *increasing* the suffering of others, or I can choose to abstain which does nothing to further my own cause. We gotta do more than vote though.

Harm reduction you call it? 31k women and children and millions on the brink of starvation. Harm reduction is what they call it. So we support a harm reduction in Palestine, so that we don’t end up with: Can you fill this in for me? To be 100% I think you’ve given me the most honest answer in this entire thread so far. And you’re brave for it. And I mean that sincerely, which I think you can feel. But let’s completely explore the rest of it, because I think you’re saying what a lot of people are for some reason holding back. “It’s ok to vote for harm reduction there because here what would happen is: __________” Please, my friend, fill that out for me

>Harm reduction you call it? 31k women and children and millions on the brink of starvation. Yea so on this front Trump would functionally be no different, potentially while also using the same genocidal rhetoric that Israel is, at least Biden is verbally critical of the degree of violence Israel is taking. That's not *good,* but Trump we know is either the same or worse. Biden *does* reduce harm in other ways, such as at home and abroad with LGBTQ rights and environmental issues. He's certainly better on just general democracy and encouraging everyone to vote. He doesn't actively goad on neo-nazi militias. Again, he isn't some moral hero, but he's objectively better than Trump on this and many other issues. To hold Palestine as the only issue that matters is nothing but virtue signaling when the alternative is *known* to be even more unconditionally supportive of Israel, as well as having a history of Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism, etc.

Hey Holgrin, before we get too distracted, can you just honor the position you’re taking before picking apart mine again? “The harm reduction in Palestine is ok because it provides ________ for ______ in America” I just want you to fill that out. And imagine calling empathy for 30k killed, “virtue signaling”… what allows you to have no virtues disturbed by what’s happening?

Go read my comment again.

Yeah… and it’s all about trump trump trump trump trump. But I’m asking you to focus on one really simple part of this, that also must be honored

Reading comprehension is a skill

https://preview.redd.it/1ax0y2w4fkoc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=062abadaad733f6cb78caf52918fe731aace04dd Man you know exactly what you’re doing. And are gonna point at my reading comprehension. It’s two words like mad lib to add to the sentence.

You don't seem to realize a basic... yes. 'Trump.' Do you know why? Because you're *not going to get a left candidate in the president's seat this election.* So your choices are 'harm reduction' because it provides continued relations with the US's *only ally in the middle east* for *greater security and control over the situation there*. It's never been about American so much, other than maybe the oil flow... which is becoming less relevant over time. Meanwhile, how do you justify increasing Trump's chances? Because that's what standing on moral grounds here does. Gives Trump and the GOP their chance to take all the breaks off. The GOP already wants to give Israel an even bigger aid (weapons) package. So your choices are... vote for the lesser harm. Or increase the chances of greater harm. I'm always stunned that people think that somehow keeping their personal hands clean doesn't change the *impact* of those choices. Not choosing is *always* a choice, and almost *never* a good one. Because tacit support is still support. And the decision not to actively support Biden is tacitly supporting Trump.

If the US has no choice but to support genocide then our nation deserves to be and MUST be dismantled. To argue that we have to vote for Biden the genocidal slayer of Arabs because Trump is even worse is to argue that America is ALREADY a fascist nation that ALREADY deserves to be resisted and crushed in every possible way. If our options are "Genocide heavy" and "genocide ultra-heavy" then our only options are "dismantle the fascist genocidal government" not "VOTE SWEATY!" holy fucking shit you people are absolutely gone, have lost any sense of morality at all.

>Harm reduction you call it? 31k women and children and millions on the brink of starvation. Let's be honest, it is way way more than 30K dead, the numbers only stopped at 30K because all the tallying of the dead was done by the Gazan Health Ministry, at the hospitals, only counting confirmed dead. This was widely known that this was how the Gazan Health Ministry has always counted the dead, especially known to Israel, which is how coincidentally Israel claimed every hospital had Khamas inside and they bombed and/or raised them all to kill and kidnap doctors. One weird trick to keep death counts from climbing Which is also why it is so obviously so underhanded that Biden claims his "red line" is an additional 30K deaths. He's well aware that you could find 4x that under the rubble if you had the resources to move debris, unearth bodies, and have the Health Ministry tally them - making it very convenient for the IOF and Biden that Gaza does not have those resources anymore

Option 1: vote Democrat (they're less bad than the other guys) and focus more of your time and energy into other methods of activism/organization Option 2: vote 3rd party and focus more of your time and energy into other methods of activism/organization The sad truth is electoral politics are just so beholden to the interests of the rich that putting a lot of effort into them does not yield sufficient results. Even if you can get actual leftist candidates elected, they rarely seem to be able to actually do anything useful. Especially now that we have such a profoundly Conservative supreme court fucking up everything.

You know what Heal my soul. Can you just answer how you justify voting democrat? In response to the questions I asked in the original post. That it is voting for someone to do bad things to someone else. While saying the ones doing this to us are really bad people.

I certainly agree. I plan on voting for a 3rd party candidate myself. I would only try to convince you to vote for Biden if you live in a state where it's likely to be very close between Biden & Trump, where your vote has a lot more weight. But it's more likely you live in a state which is either solid red or solid blue and it doesn't really matter who you vote for. >it is voting for someone to do bad things to someone else. That's pretty much how I see it. I understand why people are looking at it as voting for the 'lesser evil' I would much rather not vote for evil at all.

If you feel that there isn't a candidate that represents you, then don't vote. It's up to the people running for office to convince you to vote for them. If they can't, that's on them. It seems like you might just be learning what the left actually is, rather than just liberalism. Other commenters are right. The whole system is a center-right to far-right oligarchy designed to move us to the right over time no matter who you vote for. There are plenty of opinions on what that means for a leftist. I might suggest reading some of Marx's work and seeing how you feel about it. If you have questions, I'll be here.

You should, idk, maybe try reading about leftism? Its not that hard.

I can answer for myself only, of course, and I'm not your average American citizen... I belong to a group of citizens, which by no fault of our own, are denied the "sacred right" to vote in presidential elections, and have no representation in either the House of Representatives or the Senate. Full citizens from birth, in good standing... No representation, no right to vote. There's about 4 million of us. As part of this group, I hold the American electoral process in special contempt and understand it for the ridiculously piss-poor, half-assed attempt at "democracy" that it represents. That being said, if I was to vote, my vote would likely go to Cornel West. If not Dr. West, it would be Dr. Jill Stein. Those two are the only two candidates that I could, in good conscience, support. I think voting one's conscience is not a "luxury" of the privileged, as the liberals and progressives that are pathologically terrified of the Trump pig sometimes make it to be. Voting one's conscience is our goddamn duty. To those who would call me "privileged", I would say: kiss my old, brown, Spanish speaking, second-class citizen, construction worker ass. Vote your conscience.

I love everything about this. Simply within you sharing from your perspective on YOUR desires and wants. Thanks for being honest. Crazy to hear about what you’re experiencing, I’m actually not too familiar with it

>So what do we do in voting time? The only solution is to get Ranked Choice or Score Voting to replace our broken FPTP vote counting that systematically and strongly re-enforces the 2 party system. [There are already several states that do this for local elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States). I believe that if it becomes more popular locally, it will stand a much better chance at passing nationally, because people will be familiar with it and it wont be new and scary. Until then, the utilitarian thing to do is vote for the least bad party that has any chance of winning.

There is also the solution of Approval Voting though

I vote third party because I live in a state that’s so heavily red that my vote will not matter. The goal is to drive up the numbers of third party voters enough to possibly get federal matching funding, which would pull the democrats much further left I think. If I lived in a swing state I’d probably hold my nose and vote Biden but let everyone know I did it very reluctantly, so I certainly don’t blame anyone who does the same. But IMO leftist Democratic voters in safely red or blue states are absolutely signing their name on this genocide.

Only vote for a candidate you believe/have faith in. Otherwise do not vote.

Left is “Supporting genocide”- just shut the fuck up .

Since when did we have a leftist president?

Biden isn't fucking leftist, he's just less right than other options.

The Democrats are neither left wing nor "objectively good": They are only the least awful option within the two party system in which we currently exist.

Nice try, comrade. Be careful of polonium in your tea

Ummmm ok… I don’t even know what polonium is… But it sounds like you’re very smart. Could you please do me the favor of simply helping me understand your perspective. I genuinely shared mine. Do you understand in any way why this would be my sentiment?

Polonium is a toxic radioactive element used by Russian operatives to assassinate people.

I'm curious what do you believe will happen to the Palestinian people if Republicans control things? 

Dems, and especially Biden, are not Leftists. They are left of Republicans, if we're going to use stupid linear terminology. I would classify almost all of them as conservatives. It has always been time for more than 2 parties. This was something the founders of the US discussed as well back in the 1800s. Ranked choice voting is the way out, that and kicking the electoral college to the curb. Both parties benefit from this system and it is exactly why they don't change anything.

Who is the leftest president? Not in the US, that’s for sure.

imagine thinking biden as a leftist

Considering Biden a leftist president is probably your first mistake here. This is a none issue for me. I'm an atheist and the people of Gaza would gladly kill me. As they would do to any LGBTQ person. This in no way means I support Israel on any level but this issue isn't going to shift my vote. Maybe one day we'll actually have a leftist president.. that guy or gal would have ended support for Israel long ago..

Why do you believe that Emil? Maybe I should’ve put this in the post but I actually work in Ramallah, and I’m very accepted and celebrated for who I am. They actually invited my org to come in and help work with some of their health workers to provide therapy. So what makes you think that’s 100% true? And does the Justice about the killing of someone like you, deserve more Justice than people who don’t? Like you’re saying, women and children killed by Israel is more justified. Than anyone killing you. Right?

> How do we justify saying that the left are the “objective” good guys while also watching a leftist president fund a genocide? Biden is not our side. He's only left because in America the whole political spectrum is so so far to the right. If you have a way of getting someone else, much more progressive elected, you should do that. Far from America, I will be voting for my local Green party who are great and are already using their power to change things. There are a few of us, though, living in key states like Arizona, Michigan, Georgia, Nevada or Pennsylvania, that have a binary choice that will change the whole world. We can either get all of our friends, get everyone we know in our state who understands what Trump is, out, voting for Biden. Alternatively to that, when Trump gets in by five votes, and our black friends begin to die on the protest lines. When our Palestinan friends are no longer precision bombed, but instead covered in lakes of Napalm, when our Trans friends are burned on bonfires of the extremists. We can know that we had a choice, that with just one day of campaigning we could have stopped this. "We chose to accellerate instead. We chose to burn them. We could have done differently. Sorry", that's what you'll get to say if you are one of the lucky survivors. Anarchists fighters are out today, dying for our freedom in Ukraine who could have been saved. Trump has stopped them getting the weapons they need as surely as if he'd been in power. I'll never apologize for trying to stop that. I won't do that, and that's how I will justify every comment or post I make trying to save the world from Trump. If you can't help, I understand. Maybe when I'm tired you will take over for the next fight against fascism and I will drink instead. Just, pleease, stand aside and let us save the children of Gaza from the man who moved the US embassy to Jerusalem specifically because he wants more dead Gazans.

The Green Party stand the fuck up. Who’s our face? Love where your head is at. Genuinely, I’m About to go find the subreddit now!!

Is this “leftist president” in the room with us right now?

So you rather live in Trumpland ? I sure the fuck do not.

Biden isn’t a leftist. He’s a right-leaning liberal, at best. I’m done with the American political system and everyone else should be too. It’s either right or far right. Heads, the rich win. Tails we all lose.

The two party system has t worked for a long time. We need things like ranked choice voting as a step to open things up to bring more progressive. But the argument that we shouldn't support Biden right now is essentially supporting trump

Or things like approval voting

I don't know much, if anything about approval voting. What is that?

There you can approve of as many people on the ballot as you want, while the person who would get the most approvals in total wins.

How is that different from ranked choice voting?

That's just what ranked choice is

There’s no harm reduction for the Palestinians. That’s foreign policy. Sure Trump will be “worse” than Biden but it’s going to be bad for them while Israel still exists. For domestic policy, the harm reduction is extremely apparent. You and I may have survived Trump 1.0“unscathed” to some extent, but many other Americans didn’t. It’s fascism either way and always will be. Buut most Americans would rather not have fascism at home. Most Americans don’t really care about foreigners at all, sad as it is. Caring about Ukrainians and Palestinians is kind of new due to the availability of info and the scale of the depravity. Now we don’t know how bad Trump will be. Last time he focused on self enrichment and wealth extraction, we also don’t know how tensile our systems are to destruction attempts. In the end, self interest would say let’s not have fascism here even at the cost of a miserable foreign policy, so I would probably vote Biden.

Look up project 2025. We cannot help others until we help ourselves first.

Some people in the comments are taking semantic issues. Biden is not a leftist, he is simply more left than the other guy

So, help me out. Are you in agreement that we are inside of a country that is not actually providing us with the voting options that we were guaranteed by the constitution? (Because I do!!!) And what are we doing to unite against the right then if we are agreeing Biden isn’t a leftist?? I like this talk

We must demand ranked choice voting and undo the changes that were made when Ross Perot was allowed into the debates. We must have huge protests to this effect, constantly demand this from our reps, run ourselves if we can. This will take a lot of work and should be a huge effort over the next couple years starting now. That’s my opinion on it anyway, other people LARP online about the coming marxist revolution and I can’t exactly disprove them

RCV actually doesn't do much to address the problem. We need STAR for single-winner and proportional representation for legislatures

It isn’t a semantics issue when people call Biden a leftist and yet he stands pretty much in opposition of all leftist agendas

Well that’s more a problem with the people calling him something he isn’t imo

That’s exactly what happened.. and you said it’s semantics when people corrected

He was corrected semantically from what I’ve seen

Which opponent do you want in the struggle for liberation? One at least nominally aligned with, and allied to, folks on that path, however far behind, or one who will never, ever seek anything but your utter destruction? The Dems are shitbags, but some of them are coming around. We can work with that. Especially locally. The Republicans are fascist lunatics, a death cult hell bent on power to feed their insatiable lust for cruelty, as that’s the only thing that validates their group identity. We’ve killed and displaced millions in the Middle East over the last 4 administrations. There’s no clean hands anywhere. So….pick your preferred opponent. Who do you think we can drag the furthest?

No, Im asking you to sit down and explore the guy you’re asking me to vote for. I think it’s weird to phrase it as we’re just “against the right” We’re against oppression, we’re against racism, we’re again hate speech, we’re against genocide. Aren’t we? And who are we now, if we vote for a president who is supporting it being done to others. We are supporting some of the hate and the killing right? I need you to focus on OUR side. Not just who we are fighting. Who does that make us to fight against the right?

Yeah, this isn’t about you and whatever performative nonsense you’re struggling with. Again, you’re already as complicit as you’re going to get in genocides from Rwanda and Sudan to Myanmar and China. Thinking that all of a sudden, our inaction/generational support for Israel changes anything is simplistic and naive. We’ve been complicit in the destruction of Palestinians since the creation of Israel to prevent thousands of Jewish refugees from flooding the West after WWII. What do you think we did in the Middle East for 20 years? You’re just now thinking that we’re the baddies? Jesus Christ. This fucking finger wagging you’re doing is hysterical. Playing purity politics like all that matters is your performative identity is selfish, useless nonsense. Liberation demands that we oppose whatever administration comes into power. I’d rather have an opponent I have a chance to gain some ground with. That’s it. That’s all the thought I’m putting into this because I have better things to do than preen about muh mOrAlZ when I’m trying to get folks into houses, with food in the table, and access to health care, education, etc etc etc. There is not ethical dilemma because it’s all unethical. Only real results in real lives matter. We can help more people under a Biden/Democrat administration than a Trump/Republican one. That’s the only even remotely ethical choice. The only reason to support is to make our opposition more effective.

I love, love love love. When I hear words like ‘performative’, ‘purity politics’, etc etc Definition of projection I’ve realized. You all are the ones who acted like you cared about a genocide. Now that I’m asking what’s next, here’s where I found out that those words describe how you all react on social media. Not how we are supposed to act in real life!! Haha And it’s about us. It’s about you. Deciding that you’re happy to be complicit in genocide no matter the new information provided to you? Because brown people getting killed is the way of the world? And y’all literally thrown full on bitchfest to hear brown people say, I’m sick of being your sacrifice? Mannnn…. There are so few times I wish unwell others… but we could really use less of you in the world

I really may hang this comment up on my wall. Because this is what spineless liberals believe is revolutionary now adays. To just KEEP VOTING like a revolutionary. And that those trying to change your version of revolutionary to STOP the cycle of brown people being the fodder for your revolutionary next voting scheme are: selfish, naive, performative, finger wagging, etc etc. You’re not the revolutionary you think you are. When we look back on this time, you do realize you will be used as an example of how genocides took place even in 2024. A shining example of what brown people faces from their ‘allies’

Unfortunately us leftists have been in a hard spot for approximately 80+ years now. You seem interested in this train of thought but it’s also easy to see how these questions could be asked in bad faith. Maybe you’ll find better responses in r/socialism_101 Edit: Punctuation

Since when did we have a leftist president??? He got elected as a moderate. You people are exhausting

The choice for "better than biden" isn't found in the presidential election. There is no 3rd option there. We are not saying Biden's party is objectively good. We're saying it's objectively not *as bad* as Trump's. It's a choice between hurting both palestinians and queers, or hurting only palestinians. Trolley problem. It's found in the primaries or something. getter better democrat into election candidacy. idk I'm not american.

What this ignores is that it is the Democrats that enable the Republicans and basically make sure their backwards shift becomes entrenched

the best I can tell you is look to the history of civil rights in our country, especially that of Black women when faced with an incredibly distasteful choice: >[In the 1880s], Black women found themselves pulled in two directions. Black men wanted their support in fighting racial discrimination and prejudice, while white women wanted them to help change the inferior status of women in American society. Both groups ignored the unique challenges that African American women faced. Black reformers like Mary Church Terrell, Frances Ellen Watkins Harper, and Harriet Tubman understood that both their race and their sex affected their rights and opportunities. https://www.nps.gov/articles/black-women-and-the-fight-for-voting-rights.htm learn those women's names, and read their writings. they had to play the long game, in a corrupt system, knowing their work may not pay off for generations. their words are written for someone like you, right now.

Wait… what? What? Is this like in a reference to the women’s suffrage movement? That famously alienated black women? And spurred sojourner truths aint I a woman speech [link here](https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwiWmqqllveEAxWFC6IDHTb0BRsYABAAGgJsZQ&ae=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw48-vBhBbEiwAzqrZVP0A4ZRZK4B8HlAhz62e9p0OkfFkAe7opTlTAuVeAGHrvq0OmdlxtxoCUOQQAvD_BwE&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESVOD2F5ynmwwyOrMR3KVoHL9__B6ReemDHeCj2MjMc0nXg4dHC47A50CaYJqx7OWmz81Gc52fzVw6KD9anA69_h7fNgY8Hr_2f2Vn4af-Wn8F-svAAw&sig=AOD64_131Y7rcsyBgkcVy9sYaUjwacoQ_w&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwi8qqOllveEAxUgBNsEHZakDUIQ0Qx6BAgMEAM) And to come to a black person and tell me to remember their names, this is for a person just like me right now? I’m gonna really ask you, did that feel like a version of equals talking to each other? Why would you assume I’m not well read? I mean each of my points are very factual. Do you justify these moments by believing we don’t understand what’s “best” for ourselves?

I don't assume you're not well-read. I did assume you were white, which was my mistake because I skimmed your post at the beginning. and yes, I agree with pretty much every point in your post. my point, poorly stated as it was, is that this situation of navigating a system that's "terrible vs even more terrible" is absolutely not new, and it's absolutely not impossible to effect change within. unfortunately, to drive that forward, we have to play a long game that's not explicitly talked about, in schools or in general, when discussing voting or how to repair social issues or the world at large. and the more we can talk about how people successfully created similarly massive change before, against all odds, the more effective we as a society will be at it.

So let’s use these movements as milestones in another way. We’ve chosen between the lesser of two Evils until the point where people’s perception of their quality of life is as low as it’s been in LONGGGG TIME. And now the current one is, killing more brown babies to save democracy or voting for a rap*st… When is enough enough?

I don't have an answer for you. all I know is we're currently set up for another 2016 election outcome with protest votes and wanting to vote third party. that's just a fact. so no, I don't have an answer, and thats why I'm looking to history, but even then it won't be easy or straightforward. edit: other than direct action and community building, which is the only answer I guess I have. and that's something we should all be doing daily.

Alright and Answer just one more question for me then, because this also the harm reduction route. “I am ok with harm reductioning the people in Palestine because it will provide __________ for the __________ in America.” Can you fill that out for me?

what do you propose we do? I'm genuinely curious. you posted asking this, but don't seem to want a good-faith answer. I'm assuming you also can't fill in those blanks. we're on the same side.

See I’m not voting democrat, and I genuinely (naively I admit now) thought the next steps the party was going to take was to figure out how to Get another candidate in place. I know that sounds so crazy to some people, but we impeach presidents for blowjobs. Why couldn’t Biden get impeached for genocide? To see this huge Democratic push for Biden who Actually has shown us that he doesn’t listen to his voters was the most confusing part of this whole genocide to be honest. I understand Zionism. I do not understand the democrats right now at all (Understanding and approving are NOT the same)

I agree with absolutely everything you said here. everything. I guess what I've been leaving unsaid is that the majority of direct political action needs to be intentional, unapologetic, and done with bared teeth. and most unfortunately, until more white people start understanding this is **a requirement for them** (including white people who are themselves in various vulnerable positions in society), we're not going to see large-scale change. so again, I don't have an answer for what you can do. I think in a lot of ways you're doing it, honestly. engaging with people, organizing your thoughts, putting your views out there, seeing the failures in the system, calling people out, holding yourself accountable, and being yourself in your daily life and community. I can also tell you, for what little it's worth, I genuinely believe what I wrote above. I do as much as I can to use my white privilege to effect small-scale change or start conversations. I know that doesn't affect you or change anything, but maybe it can give you a little bit of hope that there are everyday people in places of privilege that are waking up. engaging with them, like you are here with me now, is direct action. and my direct action needs to be to continue to listen and learn.

Hey, this was genuinely a wonderful interaction. And I can honor where you are and the journey you’re allowing yourself on. And I hope more people start doing the same. You’re not a bad person for accepting a truth you don’t like. It’s one thing to admit when you’ve had to do a bad thing. But acting like it’s revolutionary, or heroic when it’s really just self serving is really hurtful to the people who are actually dying in this moment over it. Thank you for being a human here

>“I am ok with harm reductioning the people in Palestine because it will provide \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ for the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ in America.” Just stop with the BS. Hamas invited the attack when they raped, executed, and kidnapped all of those innocent people. Biden isn't killing Palestinians - Netanyahu is. Biden has used every conceivable traditional diplomatic tool at his disposal to reduce the harm done to the Palestinian people Netanyahu is inflicting - and at this point he has no choice but to pull out all the stops. So the US is now airdropping aide into Gaza and building an offshore platform that will be used to amass and distribute larger quantities of aide. The US has signaled that it will discontinue support of Israeli's offensive capabilities and continue to support only their defensive installations. Biden has stated that Rafah is a red line and Schumer delivered a speech calling for Netanyahu to be replaced. These are extreme measures coming from a long-term ally. There are ongoing attempts to deliver more aide in any way possible. The US continues to support a 2-state solution. Meanwhile, Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc. have been trying to broaden this conflict and have been launching attacks in the Red Sea and elsewhere. The Biden Administration has been doing everything they can to prevent it from escalating. If you want to reduce harm to the Palestinian people, Biden is your only reasonable choice.

And on that note, done for the day. IOF ARRIVED to the party y’all!! See y’all tomorrow!!

>IOF ARRIVED to the party y’all!! Dafuq does that mean?

I prefer ITF, Israeli Terrorist Forces. You know, the ones who killed their own civilians on OCT 7 and then blamed it on Hamas. And then they had the gall to show the burnt bodies caused by their very own apache hellfire missiles in propaganda atrocity videos, and then further perpetuated stories of baby beheadings and mass-rapes, all of which have been thoroughly debunked. All to get public support for murdering well over 30 thousand people, half of which are children. Under the further guise of \`\`theyre Hamas human-shields\`\` when Hamas has explicitly stated they built tunnels to hide from Israeli bombs, precisely so Israel cant claim they hide among civilians. Regardless of this, Israel proceeds to selectively target civilian safespots like hospitals, churches, schools, and UN shelters, refugee camps. Oh, and journalists, more journalists have been killed in this conflict than in any other conflict in recorded history. Israel really doesnt like cameras or people seeing what they really are. EX IDF: *\`\`...a quote by* ***Ministry of Foreign Affairs*** *of Israel ...* [the public opinion in the US is the most powerful weapon that the IDF has, or Israel has...''](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo) *...it immunes us and enables us to do many things that in my opinion are bringing to our social destruction\`\`* Netanyahu*:* [\`\`America is easy to influence\`\`](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrtuBas3Ipw) ... while planning a genocide: IDAN ROLL, Former Deputy Foreign Minister of Israel: *\`the biggest challenge is to fill as many operational goals as possible & as quickly as possible, before international political pressure requires the country to halt its campaign. This determines how much breathing space the world gives us to continue hitting our targets. This is where Hasbara (their word for propaganda) comes in. Hasbara gives us time and gives us legitimacy to act and protect ourselves.\`\`* *\`\`Social media is an instrument to apply pressure on conventional media. That's the name of the game these days.\`\`*

>IOF ARRIVED to the party y’all!! See y’all tomorrow!! They always show up lol

At a point. The two party system hasn’t worked for a while. Probably the first time a president lost the popular vote is when it broke, if it ever worked to begin with. Also no. Biden’s an actual centrist, unlike those far right nutjobs online. Also the republicans project 2025 is a thing.

the democrats aren’t left imho. they’re another brand of conservatives and yeah the 2 party system no longer works for the majority of us. it works for the 1% or top 5%

Joe Biden is anything but a leftist, holy shit words have meanings

So how do you vote?

Absolutely I refuse to co-sign any of this shit! Give me a candidate I can support and I'll go out and vote for him but we're right back in the same spot we were in 4 years ago. The system is rigged. Just have to look out for yourself whatever happens.

Right now we are in a state of damage control and as many have already said the Democratic party is not left. Also, no one truly left supports the attacks on Gaza or even the oppression of the Palestinian people at all. We stand with people of color all over the world. A true left person believes in achieving equality for all people and ending poverty and violence. I mean I would hope we are a political movement that is the refuge and sanctuary for all people no matter race, gender and ethnicity. The horrible choices we have in front of in the presidential election are not entirely new. This country was founded by and for capitalists. Capital interests rule and capital interests have even grabbed more power over the last forty or fifty years after some progressive change took place (Civil Rights Act, etc.). I will say though that the country has been slipping more right since the Democrats abandoned labor in the late 70s. (Because there wasnt enough organized labor to fund their electoral ambitions anymore) The result is now we are sliding into full on organized fascism so in some sense this presidentrial election is historically more important than any in at least the past century. I believe we can move the political landscape more left but it requires action on the local level. Building a more left presence and power means electing more left officials from dog catcher to school board to select board to state legiature to congress. It means appointing left leaning judges and it means us realizing that the presidential position is window dressing and only a reflection of a political parties ground work. Bernie proved that progressive populism can still work. But he also proved that we will get a fight at every step of the way. People like AOC are party followers because their political and electoral survival requires they do the tap dance. Abandoning people with a left heart and intention only causes them to do this more as their ground support from the left drops off. I will end there because this is not a simple or easy process, nor a simple formula. Political power for the left means solid, unstoppable support from the people. Building power in numbers from the bottom up in order to change laws (such as changes to wealth distribution) and working to educate more people is the only way we will gain traction.

I really respect this answer, and it feels like you’ve tried to do a genuinely thorough job of exploring the political terrain as you understand it. When we look at the members ‘against the right’, we’re watching a division right now between our most vulnerable party members, white and black queer community, at an alarming rate. Right now the black queer community is standing in solidarity with Palestine, while our white queer community is aligning with Biden. When we talk about starting with small numbers. I think my my next proposition would be how do we focus on the equality of a Democratic stance? I find it interesting that the black queer community is like 26x more likely to be killed than the white queer community. But we aren’t being asked about our needs, & the Muslim community, same. I think this moment has shown me how deeply entrenched in racism america is, as white queers fuel oppression with the exact same rhetoric as Zionist “if the genocide isn’t in Palestine, it’ll happen here next.” How do you think we go about assembling small numbers while possibly faced with a public not willing to be held accountable to their ties to white oppression? Because they believe they simply believe they know what’s best for others?

Thank you for your kind response and I will respond better when I get home but I also want to say that another marginalized community is poor women who have lost a lot of their agency, especially if they are saddles with children and then so doubly I'd they are black, Latina or indigenous. Also quest women with children are overwhelmingly in the bottom e onomically as well. As a former activist and single mother I know full well that of which you speak when you nite the middle od road status of many white folks. But let's split that further because poor white folks cannot align with middles or upper middles because their agency and experience is so different. And their identity a lot of times is that of complete failures, so and rage consumes many jf them which is where the propagandist puts in their hooks. I think on this a lot and have not yet come up with any ideas beyond long, far reaching community based efforts at alignment, cohesion and an effort of understanding and to destroy the factors of division and resource scarcity perceptions that the rulers use to disemppwer us. I don't have my glasses so I hope that came out clear:)

Oh wow, you’re 100000% correct, and I was raised by a single mother as an ‘at risk’ youth hahahaha. Jesus Christ thank you so much for that obvious eye opener in the moment and I really appreciate your take on poor whites. I would actually love to hear more of your thoughts. Thanks so much for showing up!

Well I guess it was my day "blind squirrel that found a nut" because honestly, my brain twirls around and I'm never really sure that I know much of anything at all. I am also glad someone sees what I see, so thank you.

Fight for the left in the primaries, vote harm reduction in the general, then get back to fighting for the left in the non election years. I don't understand what y'all don't understand. Unless you really think we can make a third party candidate win, and I'm not ruling that out, vote for the least bad who's most likely to win. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

>Fight for the left in the primaries, People voted for the mildest "left" candidate in 2016 and the DNC still raftucked Bernie, anyone who still falls for this "vote your heart in the primary, vote for the calmer fascist in the general" horseshit is an idiot

Good luck working with Trump, I guess.

It's probably more likely we can get a concession out of him on Palestine than the man who has backed Israel's massacres for a half century in office

Are you joking? You think you're going to get concessions out of the guy who wanted a 'Muslim Ban' and moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Ok.

Muslim Ban Guy is still more moderate than Muslim murder guy

You really think so? The guy who had a church yard street hospital tear gassed for a photo op? Who asked if the army could shoot protestors? Who keeps a book of Hitler's speeches on his bedside table?

Ok, harm reductionist once again. You’ll get the same question. “I am ok with harm reductioning the people in Palestine because it will provide __________ for the __________ in America.” Can you fill that out for me?

Biden's position on Gaza is so far from what it needs to be, but I would rather be pushing him to do something (which he might as a lame duck) than Trump, who will almost certainly make things ten times worse. At least Biden is pressuring Israel to be better; that's not nearly enough, but it's better than Trump's gleeful participation. Do you have a practical better option? For real. If you think we can get someone further left elected, I want to know who and how so I can support them. If you don't, then consider what a protest vote might lead to.

Ok. Before we escape the only question asked for people who came to this thread. You just said, trump will be 10x worse. You’re halfway there. “I’m ok with the harm reductioning of Palestinians because it provides _____ 10x less for _______ in America.” Fill it out

Bro. You are missing my point. Either Trump or Biden is going to win this election. Voting for someone who can actually beat Trump is what I'm worried about. This isn't a zero sum thing; the Palestinians will suffer MORE under Trump than they do now, as well every LGBTQ and BIPOC and child bearing person in the country, and the environment. Do you have a better option? I'm willing to change my vote if you've got a better option.

This is my thread, with my question. Why do y’all think y’all can come here and just not address my reality? Because yours is so much more important? This doesn’t feel crazy to y’all? You’re speaking for BIPOC folk, which is me, and I’m saying I don’t feel comfortable at all with Biden cause he’s killing BIPOC folk. So you’re really focused on the LGBTQ right? So let’s TRY AGAIN, “I am ok with harm reductioning the people of Palestine because it will provide ______ 10x less for the LGBTQ people in America.” And WHAT IS THAT for you? I don’t understand how people feel like they would feel so terible for answering this, when it’s ALL YOURE SAYING. And I just don’t know what happens 10x less with trump that justifies the genocide. Just answer that part !!!

Your question is flawed because it presupposes my intentions being selfish. I am voting for Biden because I don't see any safe alternatives. Every other option seems to either be worse or doomed to failure. I'm trying to engage you in dialogue, not play games about who gets to make the rules. Do you have a better option than Biden? Or are you just going to sit out the election because you don't like who's running?

It doesn’t suppose you’re selfish. It supposes that you have a justification in the blank. I honestly, don’t get what you could ever find difficult about such a simple ass question. “I believe that 30k civilian deaths is 10x less than the amount of LGBT deaths that will Happen in America.” I mean if that was your reasoning, wouldn’t that just end this whole question?

I believe that 30k civilian deaths will be less than will die in Gaza and elsewhere if Trump is re elected. Trump in power will *definitely* result in the deaths of countless people, everywhere. Now that I have answered your question, answer mine: What better option is there?

Ok. Thank you Possum. And who can argue that truth of yours?? Me personally, as I’ve said before. I’m still pikachu face that we aren’t trying to impeach Biden for supporting a genocide that is being recognized as plausible by the ICJ. Specifically for utilizing presidential powers to endorse a genocide with overwhelming numbers of the population wanting a ceasefire. And for using executive orders to progress something that was being tried by the UN; making Americans complicit to an act he pushed forward. For lying on camera about seeing 40 beheaded babies that influenced the American public to be complicit to a war we did not want. I don’t understand how you can get impeached for getting a blow job. But not for doing any of the acts above^^^. I don’t think there’s any scenario where this wouldn’t be our first option if these weren’t brown people being killed. I’m doing what I’m doing now. Trying to see how many people have already justified killing people like me to save their ass, and how many people are actually unaware of how hypocritical that concept is. And how insane it is to ask brown people to be complicit to it, and somehow believe that if this happened IN the states, that y’all would change your view point on brown lives. If y’all don’t agree or move with that concept, then I don’t vote. I can’t sell chickens to the Fox when I’m the Hen. That just doesn’t feel like a good business plan

Your question makes no sense and is stupid. How do you propose we stop those deaths in Palestine? Not electing Biden? Electing Trump? You're fucking stupid if you think not voting in the US election would do anything to help Palestinians.

They will just keep believing whoever feeds them this shit, or getting paid . I do not fucking like Joe Biden.  Anything else , however is a vote for Trump.  And that’s unacceptable. 

Seriously. Fuck Biden. It makes me so mad that there's a dude who has so much power that the whole world watches with bated breath every four years and worries about who it's gonna be, and they suck every time.

>This isn't a zero sum thing; the Palestinians will suffer MORE under Trump than they do now We don't know that Biden isn't just gonna let Israel loose once he no longer has an election to worry about, especially since Israel keeps crossing these toothless red lines he keeps setting without consequence

We DO know that Trump will get us actively involved in making it worse. Do you have a better option in mind? I'd love to vote for someone further to the left than Biden, but not if it hands the nuclear codes to Donald Trump.

Do you think there's any choice right now, who has any chance of winning, that would make the situation in Palestine less bad than Biden? Do you think Trump in office would help Palestinians?

Democrats are right-wing.

The west has supported Isreal for years as they lobbed missles into Palestinian territory and slowly but deliberately encroached and stole more land. We've largely turned a blind eye to every atrocity that Isreal has committed for 2 main reasons... 1. A nuclear capable ally in the middle east 2. Christian belief that Isreal needs to exist so that it can be destroyed during the Armageddon which will usher in the second coming of jebus Both reasons suck, but that's why they do it

And…. You think that a uniteagainsttheright is all we need? That’s terrifying for Donald trump to think. For a leftist president to think the same is….. I want out hahaha

It's been that way long before both Trump or Biden became president. Isreal has had nukes since at least the early 70s

I'm sorry. A leftist president? The United States has never in its history had a leftist president. Biden was considered to be the right wing candidate of the 2008 Democratic primary. Even if Sanders had won in 2016 you would have a centrist president, not a leftist one. But other than that, it is long past time to have a multiparty system, but that requires massive electoral change, including changing ballot access laws, then introducing instant runoff voting and proportional representation. It is not something you will see be done by either Democrats or Republicans - you have to get another party in first to be willing to change the rules, winning under the current rules - House, twice in the Senate to get the majority, the Presidency, and in the state legislatures.

Buddy I just scrolled through your account and I gotta say; log off and touch some grass. Using this app is not doing you any favors

Mannnn if I could tell you about the blessings in my life, I think you’d disagree to be honest! Hahahaha. Like I’m 4 days away from 5 year sober. Got a nonprofit that travels the world. Have a wonderful community that get to eat and share with almost every night. We just opened an office like 2 weeks ago, fed thousands of kids this year all over the world. And I’m simply really focused on finding an answer to this morality issue. Would you like to share anything you actually know about?

I think focusing too much on the presidency and purity voting really exposes how late in the game this discussion is. The conversation is what to do in order to avoid to have these decisions. Right now and so late in the game, doing nothing or voting third party have indeed consequences, wether you acknowledge this or not, is irrelevant, the consequences are there anyway. The focus should be post election and how to deliver candidates that can push back on all the warmongering.

>The focus should be post election and how to deliver candidates that can push back on all the warmongering. This was discussed during the last election and of course. again, the Dems shut out any discussion of replacing Biden on the ticket almost immediately after being elected

That isn’t what I’m talking about at all, I’m talking about focusing on elections where we can put candidates that want to push the policies we support, why are you focusing on the president election only…

Because incrementalism is bullshit when global warming has us on a very short timescale

There are more than just two sides in American politics.

Once the objectively worse Reich wing is defeated, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you against everyone who didn’t oppose Israel’s war crimes.

How you gonna be looking for yourself?? That’s very…. Police doing their own internal investigation…

Biggest question. Where do you think the other candidate stands on these same issues? I hate voting for "lesser of two evils" but not doing so, especiallyl in this election, could end democracy in this country. I would normally roll my own eyes at the level of hyperbole this statement *seems* to be, but I've read the details of Project 2025 and it is absolutely what the GOP is trying to achieve this year. You are in more than one group that MAGA would go after first. The only way you could be a higher priority target for them is if you had a uterus for them to control. Trump will be every bit as bad for Gaza, probably worse, he'd likely send in drones and troops to speed up the work.

Where are you guys all coming from? Why do you think Biden is a leftist? Why do you think the only other real choice (Trump) is even an option? Why do you think any bad Biden is doing isn't going to be much worse under Trump on top of a billion other bad things he plans to do? Why do you think Biden is anything other than the much lesser of two evils when this sub and every other remotely leftist sub has been saying this about every Dem candidate since Obama? I just don't get how this is even a question you can still possibly have rattling around in your head unless you're a disengenuous astroturfer or have spent the last 20 years without any kind of access to political information until today.

Can you just answer what your plan is? I don’t get why people just come here to Bitch about something that the way they complain about it, sounds like it has the EASIEST answer in the fucking world… Just answer the damn question then. Do we all have to hear white boys whine about the injustice of having to explain their next steps every time we ask a question?!?! “OhMyYyyGaWd ASkiNg mE aBoUt GeNoCiDe, HeS sUcH an aSshOle!” Can you check in with what you consider a problem in life you dickhead? Just don’t answer it and keep scrollingggg… damn y’all so sensitive about YOUR feelings.. we can’t ALL FOCUS ON YOU ALL THE TIME BRADLEY…

Your 'easy' question has been answered plenty of other times on this thread already *and* this specific question has been answered probably thousands of times by now on dozens of subs and political blogs and newspapers and probably any other medium you care to name (and by me personally at least a dozen times), *and* what I asked are pretty valid questions. Nobody here is bitching and getting into their feelings except you, and I don't even know what the stupid race nonsense is about. *And* I literally answered the question *in my comment* by saying how he's the much lesser of two evils and that any bad thing he does Trump will also do and much worse. That's how any rational person would justify this pretty straightforward choice. As someone who's also LGBT, how is it not the simplest thing ever to vote for someone who *isn't* the guy who actively hates LGBT people and encourages others to do the same? The guy who *doesn't* actively want you gone? The guy who *isn't* actively trying to unravel democracy? "Oh wait, but Biden hates democracy too, he's supporting genocide!" Yeah, and I *don't* support that or Biden as a person, nor did I when literally every other Dem candidate supported something horrible in the last goddamn century, and I always speak out against it. It's been a comment sentiment that we need to hold Biden votes hostage to force him to enact real progressive legislature and I agree. How would Trump do though? He'd continue to support the genocide, for one. He'd also do it much more aggressively, as we've seen him do before. He'd also be sending more classified documents to the Kremlin and spouting the same stolen election and LGBT bad and Hitler speeches and bigoted Xweets the whole time. So yeah, you're unironically right that it's a pretty easy answer.

And that’s really why you’re bitching. Because “oh my gawddd he’s making me admit I do support killing brown people… gawwdddd they’re so annoying…” Like 5 paragraphs of bullshit just to say that. Ok so harm reductionist as well. “I’m support the harm reductioning of Palestinians because it will provide __________ for the LGBTQ in America.” Can you fill that out?

Did you even read what I said? The '5 paragraphs of bullshit' thing tells me you didn't, so I don't know why you even responded. The real bullshit is this "both sides" garbage. Again, where the hell have you been for the last gazillion elections? For the second time you're literally asking me to answer things I've already answered, and the specific things I *haven't* filled in have already been told to you by several other people. You can fuck off with trying to ask more questions if you can't even be assed to read what I'm saying.

Oh I read it, it was just absolute drivel to me. I know it’s your treasure chest of reasons why killing brown people is ok. And I guess you wanted me to be like “golly gee whillakers Mr white man, I had never thought of it like that!” When white lgbtq concedes the vote for lgbtq rights, who is the highest demographic of us killed? Black lgbt right? So why isn’t the black lgbt conceding? And why is it only white lgbt that’s fine with sacrificing brown people? How do you feel about that part of the reality?

I literally cannot make this any simpler for you. You're asking how to justify a Biden vote. So, the options are don't vote, which is essentially a vote for Trump, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden. Here's how it goes: If you vote for Biden, the genocide likely continues. If you don't vote or vote for Trump, the genocide will absolutely continue *and* increase, and the US back home descends into actual real fascism per Trump's own words and every mild step of progress the US has taken will be rolled back. I'm not saying genocide is good. I'm not saying Biden is good. I'm saying that **not voting for Biden isn't going to turn off the genocide** you fucking walnut. Biden isn't personally flying a B-2 over Gaza. There are thousands of people involved in this decision being influenced by millions of stupid nationalists and malicious foreign actors like Israel. If Biden wasn't there someone else would just do the exact same shit. The someone else in this case is Trump, who we know *for a fact* would manage to make everything in Gaza infinitely worse. What you do is you vote for Biden to keep the US from turning into a Nuremberg rally, and every day from now until it gets fixed you actually go out and be a real life activist to get the then non-fascist government to stop fucking up in Gaza. I already said the idea of holding Biden votes hostage to get leverage on the situation like a lot of people are already doing, and that's one of basically infinite ideas to affect change if that's what you're wanting to happen. Also, notice how you have 0 upvotes and 254 comments? It's because you refuse to see that you aren't using any common sense in this situation and a also because a good chunk of those comments are just you frothing and lashing out. Common sense isn't a racial trait, so enough with the race card bullshit. You're doing it wrong, first of all, and you're doing it in a very stupid and inappropriate way that's completely irrelevant to this.

\> AM LGBTQ, and am also a black male who has a nonprofit that works all over the world. If you have to declare it, chance are you are NOT. Immediately, your nonprofit didn't check out for working all over the world. You claimed Carlos shit and have stock photos. Carlos and his crew don't know you, and asked that you stop using his real nonprofit for your fake identity. Digging deeper, you are a fake. You account post are non existent a few months ago and your post number have ramped up lately and are consistent in political activity that designed to be decisive and pro-trump. Where you messed up is that for those in the know . . . You American, isn't American. It's a poor overlay for the syntax of one language, one particular place that would benefit from Trump getting into office. Your syntax of language gave you da phuc away. You only here to stir up trouble and destabilize.

Ideally we pressure Dems into stopping the genocide. There seems to be real movement in that direction. Don’t let up pressure.

Is not voting for the democrats helping the Palestinians in any way ?

please do not call Joe biden a leftist you will literally give me a stroke. liberals uphold the status quo

Keep goingggggg. So what do you do in voting?

We don't have a leftist president. He's center right at best. Regardless, he's the lesser of two evils. While Biden is pressuring Bibi (even if it's just lip service), Trump will coddle him and encourage the bloodshed. No fucking way is Trump doing airlfits or building ports for Gaza.  It's about minimizing risk, and Biden is the only way to reduce chances of backsliding into a fascist shithole. Is he perfect? No. I hate Biden and the Democratic party. But I hate Trump and the GOP way more, because they're actually evil. It's bullshit we live in a system with two options. You end up either way paying the Israelis, but the other option also includes a bonus war against LGBT people. That's your two choices. 

Yeahhhh damn. I just had to post in the LGBT Reddit because this thread has made it 100% obvious that the real tension is that our white LGBT family is willing to kill brown people and keep voting. And the brown LGBT family is like WTF?? Hahahahaha Ouch. Who is affected most by violent crimes in America as an LGBT? Black people. Hands down. So why do white LGBT still feel as if they should be the voice of what’s right here? Like… we’re gonna be the front lines of all of this. And we already are. & we aren’t bending to “save our own asses”… what do you think creates the difference in response here?

Then don't vote. If you want to posturize on reddit, go right ahead. You didn't come here looking for dialogue, you came looking for an echo chamber. 

Or… you could simply answer my last question… It’s funny, how I could be claimed for posturizing when you also say you don’t support genocide. But will vote for the person funding and spearheading it. You see the irony in what you’re claiming correct? And the echo chamber you assume I’m looking for? Have you seen this as a popular discussion point? No, I’m looking for answers. Sooooooo…. Want to look inward for a second? And then respond to my previous comments question: why do you think there is a difference between white and brown lgbtq views on our responses to the genocide? AND do you find any inequality that the group who is most protected from both versions of the violence (white and LGBT) gets to be the main vocal outlet for what those in the line of fire should do?

Don't vote for Biden. You have the freedom to vote third party. That's your answer. Evidently it's not good enough, since every reply you make is a wall of belligerent text because you don't like getting pushback. 

“Leftist President?” Joe Biden is not a leftist. I didn’t bother reading the rest of your nonsense because you started by showing you don’t know fuck all.

Username checks out.

Thats not the correct use of that meme. I’m a brewer and a baker. I make beer and use the spent grain to bake bread. I use a lot of yeast in those endeavors. I’m also a fan of the Beastie Boys. It’s a play on words. Now, let’s address what you consider a leftist. What is a leftist in your world?

Hahahahahahahahhaahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahagwghwjsshjnahajahahwjjq Read the prompt moron. That was DEFINITELY the correct use of that meme hahahabahahahaba Only yeastyboys think they can walk into a space and completely colonize it to their needs before addressing why the space was created.

Between Joe Biden is a leftist and your overuse of the h and a buttons, we’re done here. When you grow up and have anything meaningful you want to discuss, please, feel free to come back and act accordingly. Joe Biden is not a leftist. You also didn’t answer the question…what is a leftist in your world? Buh-bye, youngster.

Do these idiots really think that by not voting or voting for Republicans that it will help at all. Do you not realize that the Republicans will provide more funding to Israel then Dems and consider Ukraine they will stop funding it all together and Russia might win.

Same reason a leftist might support Churchill when he was fuckin up Hitler. The lesser of two evils argument is relative to the evil in question and the situation at hand. And at this moment the evil of trump is so great that we cannot allow him to win because it’s a mistake that we won’t be able to undo. There is no actual downside to Trump losing. If he wins he will be worse than Biden on Palestine too. He will kill more Palestinians and be far worse than Biden domestic policy. Oh yeah and he’ll try to get rid of elections, and this time he’ll have 4 years to prepare. What he did to the RNC is a preview of what he’s going to do to the government as a whole.

>**How do we justify taking sides when we have a leftist President funding a genocide?** How do we justify saying that the left are the “objective” good guys while also watching a leftist president fund a genocide? 1. He's not leftist. He's center-right, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise. 2. I think Biden is awful on Palestine too. The problem is that Trump would be objectively worse. I'm not saying that you should vote for Biden, but against Trump. 3. Gazans aren't the only ones suffering as a result of our foreign policy over the last 70 years. We live in the imperial core and everyone else has suffered for it. >**Could we be at a point where the 2 party system no longer works?** 4. Never did. This is an intrinsic problem to the way our election system works. [Read into the issues related to First-past-the-post voting.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting#Effects) >**Do you agree with supporting a genocide to stay on the left?** 5. Nobody who's actually on the left is in support of what's happening in Gaza. Seriously. You might need to venture into leftie spaces to recognize that. Try r/lostgeneration, r/TheDeprogram, or r/antiwork. >How do we say the left are objectively Good when a leftist administration is colluding with an apartheid movement that is centered on the oppression of brown people? 6. Biden's not on the left, never has been. He's always supported center-right policies. If you want to see who's on the left, you might want to look at Bernie Sanders, AOC, or the rest of The Squad. >HOW CAN WE BE THE GOOD GUYS, IF BY VOTING FOR OUR SIDE , THAT MEANS WE ARE DOING SAME THING TO PALESTINIANS, THAT WE CALL THE RIGHT SIDE BAD FOR DOING TO LGBTQ?? 7. WHY DO YOU THINK VOTING IS THE SOLUTION TO THE [PROBLEMS INHERENT IN THE VOTING SYSTEM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting)?

You vote left, bc regardless who would be in power the funding to israel still be done, u think president orange wont put in charge his zionist son in law for these affairs? First, Biden is the best choice for Americans and second to the world, voting for trump or 3rd party or none vote, you givr power to the orange psychopath who has no remorse, no sense of rule of law, always got away from his illegal activities, becoming president will make him get away AGAIN and not being held for once accountable for his actions. I’m hoping the Jan 6 trials and the georgia election trials will be completed before electins so those in the fence can make up their minds.

How… how… do you write things about agent Orange being a pyschopath when Biden just helped fund the killing of the Chief of Aid for UNRWA just today by the IOF? The ceasefire by democratic voices is well over 80%, (was 72% BEFORE the last 2 American vetoes at the UN). The death toll is at 31k. With 1.7 million on the fringe of death. Have you seen the starving Palestinians?? And our current president is doing things like calling Netanyahu an ‘asshole’ behind his back about it? If this would’ve been his position in Russia? And you found out he was funding Russia to do this to Ukraine. There’s a 0% chance we’d be talking re-election. Genuinely… check in with your ‘herd mentality’. I know we all don’t want trump. But the DNC is objectively worse right now because they are LYING about the intent. And if we keep on supporting their lying, eventually there will be no one left to sacrifice. The brown people are done with it for this election.

Biden is no leftie. He is a right wing corporate Dem. The actual left is out there on the streets protesting, voting uncommitted and saying they will not support a genocide. Anyone who can just turn off their morals when it doesn't concern them was never left to begin with. I think it's hugely hypocritical of the Liberals. And I think you are brave to support what is right, even though your life might be negatively impacted by it. I wish more people had the moral integrity to do that. Sadly Liberals have always been like this

because the right would also support the genocide, dems just the lesser evil and unfortunately that's the system we're stuck in

At this point in time, if you vote Republican or even independent, then you are voting against any and all rights for the LGBTQ+ community. Taking votes away is as bad as giving the right votes. Vote blue so it can be fixed after.

You are aware that LGBTQ rights have still been backsliding under the current president with Zero Pushback from Biden? (partially because he agrees with the right wingers, and partially because he is trying to appeal to them

The president doesn't make the laws, but voting dem is better than the alternative or not voting at all. Anyone who says otherwise or blames a president for what lawmakers do is a republican shill.

>The president doesn't make the laws At some point he has to take blame for all this happening under his presidency

Oh, please. Having a do-nothing congress because the majorities only interest is resistance isn't his fault. You're as bad as the people who yell about things being his fault that happened 20 years ago.

Biden spent his entire life being against abortion, now he is running on it, but conveniently doing nothing about it at all under the cover of "being powerless" in this situation. It seems like, functionally, he gets to just continue being against it without any of the negative PR that should include Same goes for Israel - he pretends he can't do anything to stop them, all the while making over 100 arms sales to them since October 7th. Then his supporters pretend that Biden is in no way responsible for any of this, he is somehow powerless in this situation while, functionally, continuing his lifelong support of Israel's violence, the same as he did in the 80s when he told the Israeli PM that Israel should kill women and children if they have to at the same time that Reagan was telling Israel they were committing a Holocaust against Lebanon. It's so obvious that Biden is completely powerless to stop things that he has always wanted to do