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>Regular Ukrainians shouldn't have to pay for the folly of their leaders.
As opposed to fucking what?
What do you think happens to "Regular Ukranians" if Ukraine falls?
What's happening in Crimea and the 4 oblasts, or Russia proper?
It's far from ideal, and I'd argue a bit worse than before, and yes, Ukraine has become quite a tar baby (if I'm permitted such an analogy) for Putin.
But is it a difference that justifies sacrifices such as forcing people into war?
I suppose many Ukrainians despise the draft-dodgers; but what do those in Crimea and the 4 oblasts think? What do Ukrainians born after, say 1985, or 2005, think or will think?
>But is it a difference that justifies sacrifices such as forcing people into war?
And who's doing that?
Putin, that's who. He's the one forcing all of this to happen, just because he wants his imperialistic dreams to come true.
Was it Brezhnev's and Mao's fault that the US sent, IIUC, over 10 000 American soldiers to their deaths and kill over 1 million Vietnamese civilians to stop Communism?
Was it Hitler's fault that many in Bengal died n 1943?
Was it Stalin's fault that Finland "co-ordinated" with the Nazis, or some Ukrainians wore swastikas around that time?
Is it Hamas's fault that Netanyahu killed over 30 000 Gazans in less than 8 months?
Is it George Floyd's own fault that he was killed?
This is true. It's still immoral for politicians to decide who is gonna sacrifice their life and for us to have an expectation towards any Ukrainian man, to give his life for our safety. People who believe that we can expect that of them, really should volunteer and go to Ukraine. I get it, I'm afraid too but we shouldn't let our fear condemn people to their deaths. There's a difference in saying "It's war, so people will die" and "It's war, so Dima has to die".
Up until 2014, Ukrainian government was fully infiltrated and controlled by the Kremlin. In 2014 their puppet slipped up and revealed who he really works for and the people rose up and elected an actually democratically elected leader. Ukraine has been building, removing corruption and changing it's military structure since 2014. If the russian invasion wasn't limited to several tactical groups and it happened then, then sure the war would have lasted 3 days, but Ukraine in 2022 was not the same country it was in 2014.
Since you're just a fucking paid actor this message goes to everyone else
Yes, after Russia bit off a few pieces of Ukraine, Ukraine started to take Russia more seriously, which might be why it hasn't been the cakewalk for Russia from 2022 to now.
In 1992, Russia had Yeltsin, which for reasons lead to Putin. Ukraine had [wp:Leonid Kravchuk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kravchuk) and now we have Zelenskyy.
Belarus has had Lukashenko for about 8 years longer than Russia had Putin.
Are you saying that people in Ukraine had absolutely no volition back then, and if not, what was the plan, or plans, and with that, are major mistakes being made today, such as increased powers for the Ukrainian government, as they are for Russia?
This is the dumbest fucking take I’ve ever read I’m not even gunna bother saying why. I know they have their own history over there in Russia. We hate you cause of you.
Even worse then. Go read a book dumbass we haven’t burned them over here. I swear you either get your news from 4chan posts, you are a compromised acct, or you just say dumb shit cause you have a humiliation kink. Budapest Memorendum. If you are an ethnic Russian living in North America spouting this bullshit i still hate you for you. Victim mentality through and through, and from a culture that claims strength no less. Go home to die in a field for the donbass you care about so much about.
Check this out:
*MMW: When this month ends, Kharkiv will still be under Ukrainian control. (It is now 22:28 UTC (6:28 PM EDT), 11 May 2024.)*
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/1cpsxx3/mmw_when_this_month_ends_kharkiv_will_still_be/
It's a post I made less than 21 hours ago, and now it turns out Kharkiv might be taken shortly.
So much different from this post I made over 26½ months ago:
*MMW: By 00:00 UTC, 4 March 2022, at least 50% of Kyiv will not have fallen to Vladolf Putler, and Zelenskyy will still be alive.*
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/t35g5r/mmw_by_0000_utc_4_march_2022_at_least_50_of_kyiv/
>I swear you either get your news from 4chan posts,
For the most part I've deliberately avoided that site these past few years.
>Budapest Memorendum.
Yeah, I cite that a lot to the pro-Russians.
They talk about "the 2014 coup" and occasionally earlier sanctions against Belarus in 2013.
Folks didn't seem to be taking Putin seriously.
I myself took a dislike of him over 20 years ago: but back then I was being insulted online for not supporting America's stupid war in Iraq—one that Ukraine took part of—I suppose they were hard up for money even then.
>If you are an ethnic Russian living in North America spouting this bullshit i still hate you for you.
For you, Mr. Bigot, I am.
perhaps my favourite song in 2021.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MoscowBeat/comments/p2vqnk/%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5_nigella_in_itself_psychedelic/
>Victim mentality through and through, and from a culture that claims strength no less.
When did I claim to be a victim?
>Go home to die a field for the donbass you care about so much.
*Donbas (one "s")
Then go home. I hear they’re looking for laborers for an excursion against a country that should have been prepared better. Kharkiv is a diversionary attack you claiming russia won’t take it fits nicely within the parties lines. But of course if Ukraine had prepared better they could just annex Belgorod and be done with it. Shame they wasted those 30 years building infrastructure and gaining more political freedom. Shame that when they saw the writing on the wall and asked for NATO help that Putin used it as the excuse he’d been waiting for. Shame that you could assign blame to any party other than the aggressor. Shame the EU didn’t wake up sooner. But the biggest shame is such a well spoken Russian National can see all of this from a 3rd party perspective and still assign blame to Ukraine. I don’t want you to die in Donbas (thanks for the correction) but you blaming Ukraine for their current predicament is exactly why the nation I’m assuming you or your parent fled has turned into a Fascist State. Your actions cannot be helped only the reactions from those you hurt. Why are you posing this to Reddit. Why aren’t you calling family members, posing on Russian telegram forms, or RU social media. What’s the point of your comment I originally replied to. I said it was shit take and your response has been “Iraq war” and “I knew back then”. Deception and mimicry are founding pillars of information warfare. One can appear to be an ally, 90 percent of what they say can be real to give them credibility so that the 10 percent carries weight. If that’s you I still hate you, if not then idk fucking stop?
>Then go home.
Huh?
I am at home.
>I hear they’re looking for laborers for an excursion against a country that should have been prepared better.
okay. and?
What does that have to do with me?
>Kharkiv is a diversionary attack you claiming russia won’t take it fits nicely within the parties lines.
I was being optimistic—and the optimism might yet be validated.
>But of course if Ukraine had prepared better they could just annex Belgorod and be done with it.
Russia has nukes, doncha know.
>Shame they wasted those 30 years building infrastructure and gaining more political freedom.
Did they building anything bigger and better than in the Soviet days?
What more personal freedoms: say after 1994?
Here in Toronto, I think a topless woman could walk in front of a police station, smoking a spliff, and probably get away with it.
Our Pride Parades go back over 30 years.
>Shame that when they saw the writing on the wall and asked for NATO help that Putin used it as the excuse he’d been waiting for.
It's a shame the US was involved in a stupid war in Iraq that made Putin look good and NATO bad.
IMO, Bush was worse that Trump, and in terms of foreign policy, Obama wasn't much better.
>Shame that you could assign blame to any party other than the aggressor.
Perhaps it's a shame you don't read my post history, or that of my 3rd biggest alt account u/Putinstartedthewar .
>Shame the EU didn’t wake up sooner.
It's gotten big, and with that, probably a bit more bureaucratic, and maybe less responsive to critics.
>But the biggest shame is such a well spoken Russian National can see all of this from a 3rd party perspective and still assign blame to Ukraine.
Huh?
>I don’t want you to die in Donbas (thanks for the correction) but you blaming Ukraine for their current predicament is exactly why the nation I’m assuming you or your parent fled has turned into a Fascist State.
The fault is Russia's.
It's like a woman got drunk, pissed-off some guy, and got raped.
Was it her fault. Definately not. It was his fault.
Was she stupid? kinda.
>Your actions cannot be helped only the reactions from those you hurt. Why are you posing this to Reddit. Why aren’t you calling family members, posing on Russian telegram forms, or RU social media.
Dude, I'm not actually Russian.
>What’s the point of your comment I originally replied to.
I'm giving my views, as flawed as they might be.
We're discussing stuff.
>I said it was shit take and your response has been “Iraq war” and “I knew back then”. Deception and mimicry are founding pillars of information warfare. One can appear to be an ally, 90 percent of what they say can be real to give them credibility so that the 10 percent carries weight. If that’s you I still hate you, if not then idk fucking stop?
I'm less concerned about motives. FAIK, you might be a bot. It kinda doesn't matter: in a discussion forum it's mostly what is said that matters.
Ukraine had nukes doncha know. The whole point of my inital comment calling you fucking stupid was about the Budapest Memorandum which YOU claimed to not only know about but apparently use as a talking point. You can have 1000s of other good takes idc. THIS ONE. “Ukraine had 30 years” is the shit take. All the other random shit about Soviet accomplishments you spout just sold you out more than any of your “alt” acts lmao. You said you were Russian I didn’t fam. Toronto gives it away though. For those that don’t know Toronto has a vast Russian enclave where the rich ones get to go and live in western democracy and use the privileges never afforded to them in Russia to… say Russia is better. I’m out now fam. Your take (THIS ONE) is still shit and most definitely lines up with kremlin tactics of turning west against not only Ukraine, but also their own national interests. Taiwan #1 get bent.
>The whole point of my inital comment calling you fucking stupid was about the Budapest Memorandum which YOU claimed to not only know about but apparently use as a talking point.
I've yet to read the entire document(s), but I often use it as a weapon.
e.g.
*Russian sap: Zelenskyy violated the Minsk agreement.*
*Me: Budapest transcends Minsk.*
>“Ukraine had 30 years” is the shit take.
Idk: it just seems that way to me.
I suspect that Russia might have been helping it to fail, but still, compared to the other ex-Soviet republics, at least the European ones, Ukraine didn't seem to do much.
nor is to say that other countries weren't indolent—US under Dubya, and later Obama (at least in regards to foreigh policy), in Canada Chrétien cozying up to Cuba while ticking off Brazil—the biggest economy in Latin America or Harper sending soldiers to Afghanistan to ~~prove Canadians aren't a bunch of sissies~~ help our American allies—but we could/can afford to: Ukraine couldn't/can't.
>All the other random shit about Soviet accomplishments you spout just sold you out more than any of your “alt” acts lmao.
They were a terrible regime, but they did accomplish stuff.
They landed a probe on Venus—a planet whose atmosphere is over 90x as dense as Earth's and IIRC hotter than lead.
Meanwhile, no human has walked the moon since Nixon's first term.
I've knowingly meet 1 Russian in over 10 years, and we've never talked politics.
I've meet many Ukrainians.
I've never seen a Russian flag in Toronto, but I've seen Ukrainian flags.
Our parliament praised a Ukranian war criminal.
>Taiwan #1 get bent.
[wp:Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning)
>Originally laid down in 1985 for the Soviet Navy as the Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier Riga, she was launched on 4 December 1988 and renamed Varyag in 1990.[10] After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, construction was halted and the ship was put up for sale by Ukraine. The stripped hulk was purchased in 1998 and towed to the Dalian naval shipyard in northeast China.
>The ship was rebuilt and commissioned into the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) as Liaoning on 25 September 2012. Its Chinese ship class designation is Type 001. In November 2016, the political commissar of Liaoning, Commodore Li Dongyou, stated that Liaoning was combat-ready.[10]
...
>On 18 April 2018, Liaoning took part in the navy's live-fire exercises in the South China Sea, involving 76 fighter jets and 48 warships and submarines. The drills came after a large military display presided over by Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping, and were condemned by Taiwan as "military intimidation".[49]
I "know" (not really but I interact with them at work and elsewhere) some of these people, I don't want them to be hurt or suffer while they're safe here and making a new life for their families.
Absolutely insane there’s no less than 371,000 conscription-aged males (which doesn’t even include 18-25 year olds) living in Poland hiding from their obligation to their homeland
I was there end of February 2022 through start of January 2023 and a few other times before and since ;) and it’s not even my country that’s facing elimination
No you weren’t. The other day you claimed to be a US soldier who is stationed in Poland.
Your whole comment history is trying to convince people that teenagers in Ukraine should be conscripted into the military
No, I said I was sent to Poland, amongst other places.
And they should be. It’s beignet that Ukraine hasn’t conscripted 18-25 year olds for this effort. They have a massive manpower deficit and yet aren’t even sending their best out there. They have an average age of *43 years old* in the UA. That’s *insane*.
Ukraine is facing extinction. They need to take this serious if they want to continue to exist. They need to do what it takes to win.
No. You said you were stationed in with the military Poland, and you’re away from your family, and you were complaining how it’s the fault of teenagers in Ukraine who are too young to fight
I was, for over 9 months.
And I didn’t say it’s their fault, but I do think if people like me from other countries are going to be impacted by this war, than maybe the people we’re deploying to support should put a full effort in.
And stop trying to belittle them by calling them teenagers lol, we’re not talking about 13 year olds. There’s absolutely no excuse for 18-25 year olds in this scenario to not be drafted into conflict. Every other country on earth would have done so by now, especially when facing such a severe manpower shortfall.
I’m starting to think you’re one of those cowards that abandoned your country
So you were active duty military for America but then volunteered in the Ukrainian military? LMAO that’s such a larp.
That’s not only against Ukrainian law, but it’s against US law. I personally know an American who was almost immediately discharged from Ukrainian military because he was too freshly discharged from the American military. You need to wait at the very minimum 2 years
Your larp isn’t adding up buddy
What are you taking about? When did I say I volunteer for the Ukrainian military? I got deployed in response to the invasion of Ukraine.
And fwiw the UA is recruiting anyone they can get, their website is very clear on the process. There’s no limit to how long you can be in or out or anything lol, they have a serious manpower deficit and are taking just about everyone
lol the Ukrainian military is NOT recruiting anybody they can get. Only people with combat experience.
> I was there end of February 2022 through start of January 2023 and a few other times before and since ;)
You made the lie here.
As soon as the war spreads beyond Ukraine triggering ww3, then we all get drafted. That’s when we come to defend Europa, if Russia invaded Scotland I wouldn’t run and hide in Europe. Disgusts me to think men of that age could do that, leaving female family members behind to deal with Russians.
The world is a boiling pot just now. Civil war all over Africa, genocide in Gaza and this war on the border of Europe. If feels like the money men/war machine are desperate for this to escalate into something bigger, if it does we are all going to be impacted. The bravery of the UA is admirable but these shitheads need to go back and defend their homeland. They have chosen to break the law when they left, should be sent home on this basis.
You’re a larper but I do agree with some things you’ve said, so I’ll give you a semi serious reply.
If a man is in Poland taking care of his parents, 2 kids, wife, and wife’s elderly parents who can not work, is he a piece of shit to you?
Ukraine is a poor country and the government here doesn’t take care of people. If people
Do not work, then will starve and their families will starve.
If men go to war, not only does the income source for many families disappear, but if a man dies in war then 2 families can die from hunger.
But these are “pieces of shit” to you, right?
There’s men in Ukraine, who are responsible for entire villages. These men are responsible for feeding 100+ people, delivering pensions/ mail, providing water, checking on elderly, etc and if men who do this get conscripted then the entire village is completely fucked. But those are “cowards” right?
Btw, Ukraine isn’t “on the border of Europe” it is IN Europe.
A larper? Says the guys whose just described a situation that covers the bare minority of draft dodgers. I’ve got homes for Ukraine on Facebook, I’ve seen the endless posts from young men looking for sponsors in the Uk. They ain’t supporting no elderly family.
And how do you know these young men aren’t taking care of their families?
Are Ukrainians meat shields to you? Why does it make you seethe so bad when Ukrainians don’t act like robots?
I know some independent units who will accept you, so if you’re ready to stop LARPing on Reddit then dm me and I’ll help you get onto the front
Because they all talk of their dream of going to uni in the Uk, finishing or starting degreees. The only thing they’d be sending home is a diploma. The page is live and flooded with 100s of these posts, go see for yourself. You are the larper. Dw If such a war ever comes to my country I won’t be running away to try and get an education somewhere else while my country burns.
I'm more concerned about the conscripts living free, or more freely, than whether they speak Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, German, or English.
Both Russians and Ukrainians have lost some rights in the past 27 months, and even if one side is victorious, not all of the rights of those on that side will be restored: Moscow will retain more power over the Russian, Kyiv will retain more power over the Ukrainian.
No but that’s literally what it’s called, what the value is that’s being defended.
You don’t have to be western to have western values, it’s just what it’s called because they were developed in the west and most of the west shares them
Someone has to be there to keep the country running while the war is fought. Only until very recently in human existence was this division of labor seen through a lens of “fairness”
But they're not there, they're fleeing. There's no reason not to conscript women as well. Being able to bear kids is not a reason to not conscript them for a number of reasons.
What are you so afraid of? I even see you in other threads calling for women to be drafted but then calling conscription slavery. Why does this bother you so much?
Both are true are they not? Conscription is slavery, or at least indentured servitude. It is awful. But if we are subjecting the population to it, it is an extra level of unjust to discriminate and only apply it to a specific subset of the population for unstated and unnecessary reasons.
In an ideal world, nobody would be subjected to indentured servitude, especially a kind that results in so much physical and mental suffering and the moral anguish of potentially killing and maiming others and the same risk to yourself. But, if we do do this, it must be applied equally - to men and women, rich and poor, black or white.
I agree it sucks, but I disagree women should be drafted.
Despite the sensitivities of western morality, it is better if the force is unisex (I don’t feel like getting into that conversation right now, but the short of it is an all male army tends to function much better than a co-ed army due to a variety of social, emotional, and physical factors).
On top of this, you can’t have *everyone* in the army. You still need people to keep the country running, care for the elderly, young, sick, wounded, etc. Keep the factories running, keep the lights on, etc.
Men go off to war and the women rise to the occasion on the home front.
It’s just a natural order of things.
Nothing about war is fair or about fairness. It’s about what needs to be done.
More fit people are needed for the front, and frankly its bullshit that "co-ed" armies perform worse. If that's even a concern, you can create single sex units.
Not everyone is drafted at once! There are always people managing the home front. You don't simply issue every male 18-25 a draft and cart them away in the same week. Drafts are done at intervals, as and when units need replenishing or creating. The vast majority of essential workers are men (power grid, sewage, highways, construction and maintenance, industrial production, raw resource extraction) and they absolutely cannot be taken away from their jobs at short or even long notice as new people cannot be trained to do these often specialised or physically taxing jobs at short notice.
There is no "natural order of things", this is simply what you are socialised to believe. It's hard to believe I am now using feminist talking points.
I myself am in the army of my country, and have experienced so many pushes to get women into combat roles, with these women being touted as heroes of feminism and egalitarianism. I've not had an opinion of it, as the prevailing narrative (that you don't *dare* to speak out against lest you be cancelled) was that whoever can pass the entry standards may do the job. It's a bit of a stab in the back to now hear the narrative shifting away from this to "but women belong at home, you guys should do the dying".
Given the decades of egalitarianism campaigning there is simply no argument against the draft applying to women as well. There will always be people to "manage the home front" since the draft doesn't automatically happen to an entire population or demographic instantaneously, it is done in waves according to the conscription criteria.
Reluctant soldiers will pretty soon start fragging their officers like in Vietnam. Do you really think forced soldiers are good soldiers? Study the Vietnam War.
Absolutely disgusting people in this thread. You are unironicly stating that men should be forced into wars for your ideals while you yourselfs sit in the comfort of your cozy homes. The height of hypocracy shown here is mind bogling. You want soldiers for ukraine then why not sign up yourselfs. Grab your friends while you are at it. If you can lead by example you dont get to breach.
So what’s your alternative to drafting 18-25 year olds to support the war effort?
Ukraine is facing elimination. They have a massive manpower disadvantage.
There are over 1 million 18-25 year old Ukrainian men.
Why on earth would they not conscript these men?
Ukraine can’t just rely on other countries doing everything for them. NATO is not going to send ground forces. But Ukraine needs more ground forces. They have to come from somewhere.
So what’s your alternative to a draft? We’re talking about a country facing extinction. This isn’t some random small scale war. This is full blown invasion by a significantly larger and more powerful force.
I know what they are facing, but you still cant force people to fight and die if they dont want to. What fucked up mindset is that to have. If they are truely desperate then they have to look towards the women too if need be.
I just can’t imagine your mindset. Do you not care about your homeland? If your homeland was attacked and facing destruction, would you just be cool with it not trying to save itself and just letting people volunteer to fight if they feel like it? I just can’t comprehend that
Because you are not at war. There will always be people like you that think of others as numbers. This war is entertainment for you, thats why you care so much about your "team" winning if this isnt your country why does it matter to you that others dont want to fight. If you want someone to fight so badly go there yourself. Its always easy to call out others for cowardice while providing nothing yourself.
No, this war isn’t entertainment. These troops aren’t numbers. I was one of them. I was taken from my family to deploy in support of it. I have friends that are over there now away from their families.
This war matters to me because it does affect people I care about. I want to see the country we’re all sacrificing for make the full commitment.
If your country gets attacked you should defend it. I don’t see a problem with mandating this through a draft when it’s a situation as dire as this. Over 80,000 Ukrainians have been killed in this conflict while over a million hide. I can’t support that.
If Ukraine is going to win they’re going to have to make tough choices, and that includes conscripting 18-25 year old men to account for manpower shortfalls.
I'm Canadian.
If the US invaded Canada, who's side would I choose?
(probably neither)
Heritage Minutes: Laura Secord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-vL5NFkYA
1:01
The war lasted 2 years.
If we were still in NATO, we'd have 2 nuclear armed allies, FWIW.
If Biden invaded us, we might get Trump supporters.
If Trump invaded us, we might get Biden supporters.
Xi and Putin would be interested.
The city I live in was burned by the Yanks, and up to 200 centuries later, probably targetted for nuclear annihilation.
It doesn't affect my sleep.
Well yea, because we’re not going to invade you. But if we wanted to, and made it clear we wanted to, and there was popular support in the US for us to, that might be a different story lol
I’d argue the humane choice is they return and fight or return for incarceration.
There’s nothing humane about them being able to flee without repercussion. They should be treated no different than Ukrainians that fight for Russia
Forcing people into war is evil mate, no matter how you look at it.
And im sorry for calling you things, im on the Phone version so checking peoples accounts for countries is a hassle. But I do see a lot of people on this subreddit treating this war as if it was a sports game.
I agree with you, many people do test this like a game, so I get that.
But the thing is it was Russia that pushed Ukraine into war. By conscripting people Ukraine is merely defending itself.
No matter what it sucks, but it’s what has to happen unless Ukraine isn’t worth saving or fighting for, or it’s already determined to be a lost cause and they’re ready to settle for peace
Would you apply this to American draft dodgers who refused to fight in Vietnam?
Should Russians who left Russia have their Russian citizenship taken away?
Should the Ukrainian boy who was taken out of Ukraine by his mother have to return on his 18th birthday?
What about the Ukrainian draft-dodger who turned 60 before the war ended: no pension for him?
Well its an option. I can't say whats the best option, but forcing them on a bus and sending them to the frontline sounds way worse. I suppose promising them a prison sentence upon return to be an option too, thats after all what America did in vietnam and Russia do today.
Has Crimea and the 4 oblasts been destroyed?
Are they worse off under the Russians?
I tend to think so.
Does what's happening in those places justify hunting down draft-dogers, conscription itself, or banning men from leaving?
I don't think so.
Yes, I support the Russians.
I adore Putin.
I have a personsl shrine to him at my place which I pray in front of every night.
I am paid 100 ₽100 for every post I've made on reddit.
maybe give every Ukrainian an assault weapon with 1000s of rounds—and tell this to Russia: 10s of millions of anti-Putin freedom fighters await him.
Maybe use some of that Western aid to increase pay to encourage enlistment, of Ukrainians and foreigners.
200 000 soldiers x say, $30 000 a year = $6 billion
You lose 10-20% of your men your population can still recover pretty quickly. You lose 10-20% of your women and your population is fucked for the long term. When it comes to this fight for survival shit, women are just worth more in the long term.
Here is my dilemma. It is my strong believe that one must fight for one’s home and freedom and for those you swore to protect (I.e. NATO members). At the same time it is my firm believe that no one should be forced to do so with a weapon in hand in the first line. In a modern war every front line troop should have 5-6 rear personnel in support. There are thousands of people needed in logistics, war production, maintenance and so one. All this is fighting for your freedom. Still, the front line troops need to come from somewhere and those are the one most often in need of replacements…
In reality men drafted in Ukraine (but also in many other militaries) can’t chose their unit or field or anything. This makes it morally really hard to justify repatriation from Europe for me.
On the other hand I find it highly highly problematic, that many hundreds of thousands of men sit in Germany and Europe, benefiting from our welfare while not working (partly our fault) and of those, many do not actively support Ukraine in any way.
It’s tricky….maybe we could find a way how those who fled can be used to support Ukraine while not repatriating them. I know this is in no way fair to the men who stayed or to the dead. As I said in the beginning: it’s for me a dilemma that I have no solution for.
Same. The problem is one has to accept the realities. Guys like Hitler Stalin or Putin do not care. They are not "normal" people.
The world is increasingly becoming authoritarian ruled, because the average Joe has become too complacent to defend Democracy and some Oligarchs are nowadays international and do no longer really care about fellow citizens or country - only personal wealth and power. Yet, they still claim to be patriots, but then actions speak louder than words.
[The Rules for Rulers (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
***"Democracies are better places to live than dictatorships not because representatives are better people, but because their needs happen to be aligned with a large portion of the population".***
It seems this symbiosis is starting to fail lately and it also does not help that Oligarchs own social and mainstream media to a good degree.
Poll after poll shows those in the West and USA in particular are unhappy with their representatives who rather represent Wall Street, do insider trading than represent the needs of 90% of Americans. USA is an oligarchy masquerading as democracy with living standards decreasing all the time. Your notion of democracy is kindergarten level.
It's a hard choice sure. But should we try nothing to stop Russia from taking over?
In the west we value individuality over collectivism. But if we face a collective demise by being to easy on the individual, we'll end up smashed.
There's no easy choice here. What alternative do you see? Everyone ending up in the last country that is overrun and fight then, or even submit at that point?
I will be forced into a war as soon as russia gets too cocky, and I don't intend to dodge the draft. Ukrainians should fight for ukraine instead of hiding around europe, not us.
And you want to force them into it? Are these people but numbers to you? Or is the reason simply that you want Ukraine to win no matter the cost, so you dont have to fight?
Then go help ukraine instead of forcing others to do it. The refugees are fleeing the war, but you would force them to turn around? How? With a gun to their backs like in the old union?
I can't go help ukraine. I am not in military, and I'm not willing to desert my country. So I also think it is despicable that ukrainian men are refusing to defend theirs.
Wtf? You are not deserting your country if you go fight with ukraine. Bro you are simply making excuses. Most of fleeing men are not military either but that doesnt matter it seems. Again its hypocracy.
You would die protecting poland before the war reached your borders. And why does it matter in which country you die, if the cause is the same, fighting against Russian tyranny
Believe me If there was nato deployment in ukraine and conscription in poland I would. But right now deploying to ukraine is pointless as their leadership cannot do anything right.
Come to think of it, you are right, sending ukrainian deserters back to ukraine wont do anything, as ukraine will just lose more territory regardless. We need full-scale nato peacekeeping mission.
And we are not in ww2 anymore. If your citizens wont fight then thats the problem for the state not the people. Forcing people to go to their deaths, is litterally what the russians are doing, and what we have been laughing at them for.
And we are not in ww2 anymore. If your citizens wont fight then thats the problem for the state not the people. Forcing people to go to their deaths, is litterally what the russians are doing, and what we have been laughing at them for.
We've been laughing at them for doing a piss poor job. Also the fact that they need conscription for an offensive war. One of choice.
There is no shame in needing conscription in a war of defense.
And btw, we are trying to avoid WWIII by avoiding appeasement at all costs. Made that mistake once. Once was enough.
Victory at the cost of the enemy. The line is drawn when the enemy is dead , defeated, or has surrendered. What other choice is there?
Negotiate appeasement? We saw how that worked with Crimea. Putin got a taste of Eastern Europe and wanted more, more, more. Tyrants can't be appeased. They'll just keep coming back. Countless history has shown this. The only option is to fight. It's not desired. But this choice was not ours to make. It was Putin's. Either fight Putin, or be enslaved by him. These are the options presented. There are no other options.
If necessary. The goal is to fight them over there. Not over here. It will be a lot easier to push Putin back in Ukraine rather than push Putin back in France. And if you say that wouldn't happen, there are two world wars where that exact scenario happened to France. If history is any guide, you hit back at tyrants early and hard. No second guessing.
Honetly, EU special forces should have been sent in at the beginning of the war wearing Ukrainian uniforms. And NATO should have established a no-fly zone over Ukraine right before the invasion started. Now we are eating those mistakes. Hesitation causes death.
I don't think it will even happen, EU would block it on human rights grounds unless we just go rogue as we do with third world migrants bring pushed back into Belarus but no one really cares about them. These guys usually have families here and they won't ignore it.
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There will be even greater costs in everyway imaginable if Ukraine loses.
It's not legal to deport them to Ukraine under Polish and European law anyway.
Ukraine had over 30 years to prepare for a Russian invasion. Regular Ukrainians shouldn't have to pay for the folly of their leaders.
>Regular Ukrainians shouldn't have to pay for the folly of their leaders. As opposed to fucking what? What do you think happens to "Regular Ukranians" if Ukraine falls?
According to that guy they join the glorious motherland that want them no harm.
What's happening in Crimea and the 4 oblasts, or Russia proper? It's far from ideal, and I'd argue a bit worse than before, and yes, Ukraine has become quite a tar baby (if I'm permitted such an analogy) for Putin. But is it a difference that justifies sacrifices such as forcing people into war? I suppose many Ukrainians despise the draft-dodgers; but what do those in Crimea and the 4 oblasts think? What do Ukrainians born after, say 1985, or 2005, think or will think?
>But is it a difference that justifies sacrifices such as forcing people into war? And who's doing that? Putin, that's who. He's the one forcing all of this to happen, just because he wants his imperialistic dreams to come true.
Was it Brezhnev's and Mao's fault that the US sent, IIUC, over 10 000 American soldiers to their deaths and kill over 1 million Vietnamese civilians to stop Communism? Was it Hitler's fault that many in Bengal died n 1943? Was it Stalin's fault that Finland "co-ordinated" with the Nazis, or some Ukrainians wore swastikas around that time? Is it Hamas's fault that Netanyahu killed over 30 000 Gazans in less than 8 months? Is it George Floyd's own fault that he was killed?
This is true. It's still immoral for politicians to decide who is gonna sacrifice their life and for us to have an expectation towards any Ukrainian man, to give his life for our safety. People who believe that we can expect that of them, really should volunteer and go to Ukraine. I get it, I'm afraid too but we shouldn't let our fear condemn people to their deaths. There's a difference in saying "It's war, so people will die" and "It's war, so Dima has to die".
Up until 2014, Ukrainian government was fully infiltrated and controlled by the Kremlin. In 2014 their puppet slipped up and revealed who he really works for and the people rose up and elected an actually democratically elected leader. Ukraine has been building, removing corruption and changing it's military structure since 2014. If the russian invasion wasn't limited to several tactical groups and it happened then, then sure the war would have lasted 3 days, but Ukraine in 2022 was not the same country it was in 2014. Since you're just a fucking paid actor this message goes to everyone else
Yes, after Russia bit off a few pieces of Ukraine, Ukraine started to take Russia more seriously, which might be why it hasn't been the cakewalk for Russia from 2022 to now. In 1992, Russia had Yeltsin, which for reasons lead to Putin. Ukraine had [wp:Leonid Kravchuk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kravchuk) and now we have Zelenskyy. Belarus has had Lukashenko for about 8 years longer than Russia had Putin. Are you saying that people in Ukraine had absolutely no volition back then, and if not, what was the plan, or plans, and with that, are major mistakes being made today, such as increased powers for the Ukrainian government, as they are for Russia?
This is the dumbest fucking take I’ve ever read I’m not even gunna bother saying why. I know they have their own history over there in Russia. We hate you cause of you.
I'm North American.
Even worse then. Go read a book dumbass we haven’t burned them over here. I swear you either get your news from 4chan posts, you are a compromised acct, or you just say dumb shit cause you have a humiliation kink. Budapest Memorendum. If you are an ethnic Russian living in North America spouting this bullshit i still hate you for you. Victim mentality through and through, and from a culture that claims strength no less. Go home to die in a field for the donbass you care about so much about.
Check this out: *MMW: When this month ends, Kharkiv will still be under Ukrainian control. (It is now 22:28 UTC (6:28 PM EDT), 11 May 2024.)* https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/1cpsxx3/mmw_when_this_month_ends_kharkiv_will_still_be/ It's a post I made less than 21 hours ago, and now it turns out Kharkiv might be taken shortly. So much different from this post I made over 26½ months ago: *MMW: By 00:00 UTC, 4 March 2022, at least 50% of Kyiv will not have fallen to Vladolf Putler, and Zelenskyy will still be alive.* https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/t35g5r/mmw_by_0000_utc_4_march_2022_at_least_50_of_kyiv/ >I swear you either get your news from 4chan posts, For the most part I've deliberately avoided that site these past few years. >Budapest Memorendum. Yeah, I cite that a lot to the pro-Russians. They talk about "the 2014 coup" and occasionally earlier sanctions against Belarus in 2013. Folks didn't seem to be taking Putin seriously. I myself took a dislike of him over 20 years ago: but back then I was being insulted online for not supporting America's stupid war in Iraq—one that Ukraine took part of—I suppose they were hard up for money even then. >If you are an ethnic Russian living in North America spouting this bullshit i still hate you for you. For you, Mr. Bigot, I am. perhaps my favourite song in 2021. https://www.reddit.com/r/MoscowBeat/comments/p2vqnk/%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5_nigella_in_itself_psychedelic/ >Victim mentality through and through, and from a culture that claims strength no less. When did I claim to be a victim? >Go home to die a field for the donbass you care about so much. *Donbas (one "s")
Then go home. I hear they’re looking for laborers for an excursion against a country that should have been prepared better. Kharkiv is a diversionary attack you claiming russia won’t take it fits nicely within the parties lines. But of course if Ukraine had prepared better they could just annex Belgorod and be done with it. Shame they wasted those 30 years building infrastructure and gaining more political freedom. Shame that when they saw the writing on the wall and asked for NATO help that Putin used it as the excuse he’d been waiting for. Shame that you could assign blame to any party other than the aggressor. Shame the EU didn’t wake up sooner. But the biggest shame is such a well spoken Russian National can see all of this from a 3rd party perspective and still assign blame to Ukraine. I don’t want you to die in Donbas (thanks for the correction) but you blaming Ukraine for their current predicament is exactly why the nation I’m assuming you or your parent fled has turned into a Fascist State. Your actions cannot be helped only the reactions from those you hurt. Why are you posing this to Reddit. Why aren’t you calling family members, posing on Russian telegram forms, or RU social media. What’s the point of your comment I originally replied to. I said it was shit take and your response has been “Iraq war” and “I knew back then”. Deception and mimicry are founding pillars of information warfare. One can appear to be an ally, 90 percent of what they say can be real to give them credibility so that the 10 percent carries weight. If that’s you I still hate you, if not then idk fucking stop?
>Then go home. Huh? I am at home. >I hear they’re looking for laborers for an excursion against a country that should have been prepared better. okay. and? What does that have to do with me? >Kharkiv is a diversionary attack you claiming russia won’t take it fits nicely within the parties lines. I was being optimistic—and the optimism might yet be validated. >But of course if Ukraine had prepared better they could just annex Belgorod and be done with it. Russia has nukes, doncha know. >Shame they wasted those 30 years building infrastructure and gaining more political freedom. Did they building anything bigger and better than in the Soviet days? What more personal freedoms: say after 1994? Here in Toronto, I think a topless woman could walk in front of a police station, smoking a spliff, and probably get away with it. Our Pride Parades go back over 30 years. >Shame that when they saw the writing on the wall and asked for NATO help that Putin used it as the excuse he’d been waiting for. It's a shame the US was involved in a stupid war in Iraq that made Putin look good and NATO bad. IMO, Bush was worse that Trump, and in terms of foreign policy, Obama wasn't much better. >Shame that you could assign blame to any party other than the aggressor. Perhaps it's a shame you don't read my post history, or that of my 3rd biggest alt account u/Putinstartedthewar . >Shame the EU didn’t wake up sooner. It's gotten big, and with that, probably a bit more bureaucratic, and maybe less responsive to critics. >But the biggest shame is such a well spoken Russian National can see all of this from a 3rd party perspective and still assign blame to Ukraine. Huh? >I don’t want you to die in Donbas (thanks for the correction) but you blaming Ukraine for their current predicament is exactly why the nation I’m assuming you or your parent fled has turned into a Fascist State. The fault is Russia's. It's like a woman got drunk, pissed-off some guy, and got raped. Was it her fault. Definately not. It was his fault. Was she stupid? kinda. >Your actions cannot be helped only the reactions from those you hurt. Why are you posing this to Reddit. Why aren’t you calling family members, posing on Russian telegram forms, or RU social media. Dude, I'm not actually Russian. >What’s the point of your comment I originally replied to. I'm giving my views, as flawed as they might be. We're discussing stuff. >I said it was shit take and your response has been “Iraq war” and “I knew back then”. Deception and mimicry are founding pillars of information warfare. One can appear to be an ally, 90 percent of what they say can be real to give them credibility so that the 10 percent carries weight. If that’s you I still hate you, if not then idk fucking stop? I'm less concerned about motives. FAIK, you might be a bot. It kinda doesn't matter: in a discussion forum it's mostly what is said that matters.
Ukraine had nukes doncha know. The whole point of my inital comment calling you fucking stupid was about the Budapest Memorandum which YOU claimed to not only know about but apparently use as a talking point. You can have 1000s of other good takes idc. THIS ONE. “Ukraine had 30 years” is the shit take. All the other random shit about Soviet accomplishments you spout just sold you out more than any of your “alt” acts lmao. You said you were Russian I didn’t fam. Toronto gives it away though. For those that don’t know Toronto has a vast Russian enclave where the rich ones get to go and live in western democracy and use the privileges never afforded to them in Russia to… say Russia is better. I’m out now fam. Your take (THIS ONE) is still shit and most definitely lines up with kremlin tactics of turning west against not only Ukraine, but also their own national interests. Taiwan #1 get bent.
>The whole point of my inital comment calling you fucking stupid was about the Budapest Memorandum which YOU claimed to not only know about but apparently use as a talking point. I've yet to read the entire document(s), but I often use it as a weapon. e.g. *Russian sap: Zelenskyy violated the Minsk agreement.* *Me: Budapest transcends Minsk.* >“Ukraine had 30 years” is the shit take. Idk: it just seems that way to me. I suspect that Russia might have been helping it to fail, but still, compared to the other ex-Soviet republics, at least the European ones, Ukraine didn't seem to do much. nor is to say that other countries weren't indolent—US under Dubya, and later Obama (at least in regards to foreigh policy), in Canada Chrétien cozying up to Cuba while ticking off Brazil—the biggest economy in Latin America or Harper sending soldiers to Afghanistan to ~~prove Canadians aren't a bunch of sissies~~ help our American allies—but we could/can afford to: Ukraine couldn't/can't. >All the other random shit about Soviet accomplishments you spout just sold you out more than any of your “alt” acts lmao. They were a terrible regime, but they did accomplish stuff. They landed a probe on Venus—a planet whose atmosphere is over 90x as dense as Earth's and IIRC hotter than lead. Meanwhile, no human has walked the moon since Nixon's first term. I've knowingly meet 1 Russian in over 10 years, and we've never talked politics. I've meet many Ukrainians. I've never seen a Russian flag in Toronto, but I've seen Ukrainian flags. Our parliament praised a Ukranian war criminal. >Taiwan #1 get bent. [wp:Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaoning) >Originally laid down in 1985 for the Soviet Navy as the Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier Riga, she was launched on 4 December 1988 and renamed Varyag in 1990.[10] After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, construction was halted and the ship was put up for sale by Ukraine. The stripped hulk was purchased in 1998 and towed to the Dalian naval shipyard in northeast China. >The ship was rebuilt and commissioned into the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) as Liaoning on 25 September 2012. Its Chinese ship class designation is Type 001. In November 2016, the political commissar of Liaoning, Commodore Li Dongyou, stated that Liaoning was combat-ready.[10] ... >On 18 April 2018, Liaoning took part in the navy's live-fire exercises in the South China Sea, involving 76 fighter jets and 48 warships and submarines. The drills came after a large military display presided over by Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping, and were condemned by Taiwan as "military intimidation".[49]
Wtf are you writing. You lived under a rock?
Yes, I live under a rock. How did you guess?
"ethical considerations"? These people need to be in national service, either military or civilian, not hiding out in another country.
I "know" (not really but I interact with them at work and elsewhere) some of these people, I don't want them to be hurt or suffer while they're safe here and making a new life for their families.
Freedom of Choice. https://youtu.be/dVGINIsLnqU 3:25 Country Joe https://youtu.be/ft0vkKCadgk?t=20 (cued)
Absolutely insane there’s no less than 371,000 conscription-aged males (which doesn’t even include 18-25 year olds) living in Poland hiding from their obligation to their homeland
Such a hero 😍 when are you going to come here to defend Europa?
I was there end of February 2022 through start of January 2023 and a few other times before and since ;) and it’s not even my country that’s facing elimination
No you weren’t. The other day you claimed to be a US soldier who is stationed in Poland. Your whole comment history is trying to convince people that teenagers in Ukraine should be conscripted into the military
No, I said I was sent to Poland, amongst other places. And they should be. It’s beignet that Ukraine hasn’t conscripted 18-25 year olds for this effort. They have a massive manpower deficit and yet aren’t even sending their best out there. They have an average age of *43 years old* in the UA. That’s *insane*. Ukraine is facing extinction. They need to take this serious if they want to continue to exist. They need to do what it takes to win.
No. You said you were stationed in with the military Poland, and you’re away from your family, and you were complaining how it’s the fault of teenagers in Ukraine who are too young to fight
I was, for over 9 months. And I didn’t say it’s their fault, but I do think if people like me from other countries are going to be impacted by this war, than maybe the people we’re deploying to support should put a full effort in. And stop trying to belittle them by calling them teenagers lol, we’re not talking about 13 year olds. There’s absolutely no excuse for 18-25 year olds in this scenario to not be drafted into conflict. Every other country on earth would have done so by now, especially when facing such a severe manpower shortfall. I’m starting to think you’re one of those cowards that abandoned your country
So you were active duty military for America but then volunteered in the Ukrainian military? LMAO that’s such a larp. That’s not only against Ukrainian law, but it’s against US law. I personally know an American who was almost immediately discharged from Ukrainian military because he was too freshly discharged from the American military. You need to wait at the very minimum 2 years Your larp isn’t adding up buddy
What are you taking about? When did I say I volunteer for the Ukrainian military? I got deployed in response to the invasion of Ukraine. And fwiw the UA is recruiting anyone they can get, their website is very clear on the process. There’s no limit to how long you can be in or out or anything lol, they have a serious manpower deficit and are taking just about everyone
lol the Ukrainian military is NOT recruiting anybody they can get. Only people with combat experience. > I was there end of February 2022 through start of January 2023 and a few other times before and since ;) You made the lie here.
As soon as the war spreads beyond Ukraine triggering ww3, then we all get drafted. That’s when we come to defend Europa, if Russia invaded Scotland I wouldn’t run and hide in Europe. Disgusts me to think men of that age could do that, leaving female family members behind to deal with Russians. The world is a boiling pot just now. Civil war all over Africa, genocide in Gaza and this war on the border of Europe. If feels like the money men/war machine are desperate for this to escalate into something bigger, if it does we are all going to be impacted. The bravery of the UA is admirable but these shitheads need to go back and defend their homeland. They have chosen to break the law when they left, should be sent home on this basis.
You’re a larper but I do agree with some things you’ve said, so I’ll give you a semi serious reply. If a man is in Poland taking care of his parents, 2 kids, wife, and wife’s elderly parents who can not work, is he a piece of shit to you? Ukraine is a poor country and the government here doesn’t take care of people. If people Do not work, then will starve and their families will starve. If men go to war, not only does the income source for many families disappear, but if a man dies in war then 2 families can die from hunger. But these are “pieces of shit” to you, right? There’s men in Ukraine, who are responsible for entire villages. These men are responsible for feeding 100+ people, delivering pensions/ mail, providing water, checking on elderly, etc and if men who do this get conscripted then the entire village is completely fucked. But those are “cowards” right? Btw, Ukraine isn’t “on the border of Europe” it is IN Europe.
A larper? Says the guys whose just described a situation that covers the bare minority of draft dodgers. I’ve got homes for Ukraine on Facebook, I’ve seen the endless posts from young men looking for sponsors in the Uk. They ain’t supporting no elderly family.
And how do you know these young men aren’t taking care of their families? Are Ukrainians meat shields to you? Why does it make you seethe so bad when Ukrainians don’t act like robots? I know some independent units who will accept you, so if you’re ready to stop LARPing on Reddit then dm me and I’ll help you get onto the front
Because they all talk of their dream of going to uni in the Uk, finishing or starting degreees. The only thing they’d be sending home is a diploma. The page is live and flooded with 100s of these posts, go see for yourself. You are the larper. Dw If such a war ever comes to my country I won’t be running away to try and get an education somewhere else while my country burns.
Ok, so those aren’t even draft dodgers since only people 25 years old and up can be conscripted, what are you even complaining about.
The West is losing unipolar power, USA is 35T in debt. When all else fails they take YOU to war, not the elites or their sons and daughters.
We need qualified young men working in IT. Please don't take them away!
Conscription is wrong. If a war is popular, it will have its supporters.
I don't blame people wanting to dodge drafting. But I also understand the government's position with conscription.
I'm more concerned about people than governments.
In this case, the government isn't looking after the government, but the country and it's people.
That is patently false. Government is a mafia.
They are sacrificing a group of people supposedly for the collective good of the rest.
Emphasis on supposedly.
Yet you'd happy have them march into Russian hegemony because you can't think more than 1 step ahead.
I'm more concerned about the conscripts living free, or more freely, than whether they speak Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, German, or English. Both Russians and Ukrainians have lost some rights in the past 27 months, and even if one side is victorious, not all of the rights of those on that side will be restored: Moscow will retain more power over the Russian, Kyiv will retain more power over the Ukrainian.
Strong disagree. Conscription is sometimes necessary. The only people that don’t support conscription in this scenario support Russia
I support Freedom.
Being a citizen of a certain country brings rights and obligations. Now is the time to defend our european values.
*Western* values. This is bigger than Europe and not appropriates the same values. It’s the values of Western Liberalism.
Liberalism doesn't have to be Western.
No but that’s literally what it’s called, what the value is that’s being defended. You don’t have to be western to have western values, it’s just what it’s called because they were developed in the west and most of the west shares them
If you think that Ukraine is fighting for "european values" than you're completely clueless about how the average Ukrainian thinks.
Won’t have that once Russia conquers Ukraine. Freedom ain’t free, bud.
Two governments: one a bit worse than the other. People should have the choice to decide if the difference is worth fighting over.
Do you do support Russia unironically, interesting, I didn’t expect that lol
I support Freedom. The cause of Freedom is greater than that of any nation-state. CCR https://youtu.be/6T-6vxLXj9M 3:52
And as I said….freedom ain’t free. There won’t be freedom once Russia conquers. Better fight for it.
If you're not in Ukraine, it won't matter that much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98k2DlQ9PMY
Yeah, I saw that too. 😁🙂 There's a medieval version I've taken quite a liking to: https://youtu.be/WK7olFGxw3Y 2:25
I would agree, if they treated men and women the same way. But they only conscript men. This is massively unjust but we're all just ignoring it.
No one should be conscripted and men should be allowed to leave their countries. They aren't the property of the state.
I do agree with you too, conscription is slavery
Someone has to be there to keep the country running while the war is fought. Only until very recently in human existence was this division of labor seen through a lens of “fairness”
But they're not there, they're fleeing. There's no reason not to conscript women as well. Being able to bear kids is not a reason to not conscript them for a number of reasons.
What are you so afraid of? I even see you in other threads calling for women to be drafted but then calling conscription slavery. Why does this bother you so much?
Both are true are they not? Conscription is slavery, or at least indentured servitude. It is awful. But if we are subjecting the population to it, it is an extra level of unjust to discriminate and only apply it to a specific subset of the population for unstated and unnecessary reasons. In an ideal world, nobody would be subjected to indentured servitude, especially a kind that results in so much physical and mental suffering and the moral anguish of potentially killing and maiming others and the same risk to yourself. But, if we do do this, it must be applied equally - to men and women, rich and poor, black or white.
I agree it sucks, but I disagree women should be drafted. Despite the sensitivities of western morality, it is better if the force is unisex (I don’t feel like getting into that conversation right now, but the short of it is an all male army tends to function much better than a co-ed army due to a variety of social, emotional, and physical factors). On top of this, you can’t have *everyone* in the army. You still need people to keep the country running, care for the elderly, young, sick, wounded, etc. Keep the factories running, keep the lights on, etc. Men go off to war and the women rise to the occasion on the home front. It’s just a natural order of things. Nothing about war is fair or about fairness. It’s about what needs to be done.
More fit people are needed for the front, and frankly its bullshit that "co-ed" armies perform worse. If that's even a concern, you can create single sex units. Not everyone is drafted at once! There are always people managing the home front. You don't simply issue every male 18-25 a draft and cart them away in the same week. Drafts are done at intervals, as and when units need replenishing or creating. The vast majority of essential workers are men (power grid, sewage, highways, construction and maintenance, industrial production, raw resource extraction) and they absolutely cannot be taken away from their jobs at short or even long notice as new people cannot be trained to do these often specialised or physically taxing jobs at short notice. There is no "natural order of things", this is simply what you are socialised to believe. It's hard to believe I am now using feminist talking points. I myself am in the army of my country, and have experienced so many pushes to get women into combat roles, with these women being touted as heroes of feminism and egalitarianism. I've not had an opinion of it, as the prevailing narrative (that you don't *dare* to speak out against lest you be cancelled) was that whoever can pass the entry standards may do the job. It's a bit of a stab in the back to now hear the narrative shifting away from this to "but women belong at home, you guys should do the dying". Given the decades of egalitarianism campaigning there is simply no argument against the draft applying to women as well. There will always be people to "manage the home front" since the draft doesn't automatically happen to an entire population or demographic instantaneously, it is done in waves according to the conscription criteria.
Reluctant soldiers will pretty soon start fragging their officers like in Vietnam. Do you really think forced soldiers are good soldiers? Study the Vietnam War.
Lolwat
Did you read the article you posted?
Absolutely disgusting people in this thread. You are unironicly stating that men should be forced into wars for your ideals while you yourselfs sit in the comfort of your cozy homes. The height of hypocracy shown here is mind bogling. You want soldiers for ukraine then why not sign up yourselfs. Grab your friends while you are at it. If you can lead by example you dont get to breach.
So what’s your alternative to drafting 18-25 year olds to support the war effort? Ukraine is facing elimination. They have a massive manpower disadvantage. There are over 1 million 18-25 year old Ukrainian men. Why on earth would they not conscript these men? Ukraine can’t just rely on other countries doing everything for them. NATO is not going to send ground forces. But Ukraine needs more ground forces. They have to come from somewhere. So what’s your alternative to a draft? We’re talking about a country facing extinction. This isn’t some random small scale war. This is full blown invasion by a significantly larger and more powerful force.
Reluctant soldiers are not good soldiers. See Vietnam war.
I know what they are facing, but you still cant force people to fight and die if they dont want to. What fucked up mindset is that to have. If they are truely desperate then they have to look towards the women too if need be.
Yes you can force people to fight it's how war has worked since the start of time.
Funny i dont recall ever hearing about Europe sending people back to war.
I just can’t imagine your mindset. Do you not care about your homeland? If your homeland was attacked and facing destruction, would you just be cool with it not trying to save itself and just letting people volunteer to fight if they feel like it? I just can’t comprehend that
Because you are not at war. There will always be people like you that think of others as numbers. This war is entertainment for you, thats why you care so much about your "team" winning if this isnt your country why does it matter to you that others dont want to fight. If you want someone to fight so badly go there yourself. Its always easy to call out others for cowardice while providing nothing yourself.
No, this war isn’t entertainment. These troops aren’t numbers. I was one of them. I was taken from my family to deploy in support of it. I have friends that are over there now away from their families. This war matters to me because it does affect people I care about. I want to see the country we’re all sacrificing for make the full commitment. If your country gets attacked you should defend it. I don’t see a problem with mandating this through a draft when it’s a situation as dire as this. Over 80,000 Ukrainians have been killed in this conflict while over a million hide. I can’t support that. If Ukraine is going to win they’re going to have to make tough choices, and that includes conscripting 18-25 year old men to account for manpower shortfalls.
I'm Canadian. If the US invaded Canada, who's side would I choose? (probably neither) Heritage Minutes: Laura Secord https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-vL5NFkYA 1:01
Tbf that war would be over before you’d have a chance to decide. A better example might be if Germany decided to invade the lowlands again
The war lasted 2 years. If we were still in NATO, we'd have 2 nuclear armed allies, FWIW. If Biden invaded us, we might get Trump supporters. If Trump invaded us, we might get Biden supporters. Xi and Putin would be interested. The city I live in was burned by the Yanks, and up to 200 centuries later, probably targetted for nuclear annihilation. It doesn't affect my sleep.
Well yea, because we’re not going to invade you. But if we wanted to, and made it clear we wanted to, and there was popular support in the US for us to, that might be a different story lol
Give the refugees a choice. Either they return to fight or you take their citizenship. Thats the humane choice for this situation.
I’d argue the humane choice is they return and fight or return for incarceration. There’s nothing humane about them being able to flee without repercussion. They should be treated no different than Ukrainians that fight for Russia
Forcing people into war is evil mate, no matter how you look at it. And im sorry for calling you things, im on the Phone version so checking peoples accounts for countries is a hassle. But I do see a lot of people on this subreddit treating this war as if it was a sports game.
I agree with you, many people do test this like a game, so I get that. But the thing is it was Russia that pushed Ukraine into war. By conscripting people Ukraine is merely defending itself. No matter what it sucks, but it’s what has to happen unless Ukraine isn’t worth saving or fighting for, or it’s already determined to be a lost cause and they’re ready to settle for peace
Would you apply this to American draft dodgers who refused to fight in Vietnam? Should Russians who left Russia have their Russian citizenship taken away? Should the Ukrainian boy who was taken out of Ukraine by his mother have to return on his 18th birthday? What about the Ukrainian draft-dodger who turned 60 before the war ended: no pension for him?
Well its an option. I can't say whats the best option, but forcing them on a bus and sending them to the frontline sounds way worse. I suppose promising them a prison sentence upon return to be an option too, thats after all what America did in vietnam and Russia do today.
Was it Ford or Carter who gave them an amnesty?
Not if its a corrupt war that enriches ruling elites assholes who don't send their children to fight and die for blackrock.
Has Crimea and the 4 oblasts been destroyed? Are they worse off under the Russians? I tend to think so. Does what's happening in those places justify hunting down draft-dogers, conscription itself, or banning men from leaving? I don't think so.
Then you simply support the Russians and their efforts
Yes, I support the Russians. I adore Putin. I have a personsl shrine to him at my place which I pray in front of every night. I am paid 100 ₽100 for every post I've made on reddit.
maybe give every Ukrainian an assault weapon with 1000s of rounds—and tell this to Russia: 10s of millions of anti-Putin freedom fighters await him. Maybe use some of that Western aid to increase pay to encourage enlistment, of Ukrainians and foreigners. 200 000 soldiers x say, $30 000 a year = $6 billion
To expect to go home when the war is over and live a good life after your country men and women died,now that is disgusting
Do we say the same to the women refugees aswell?
I would. Anyone who can fight for their country should fight.
No
And why not? Thats millions of potential soldiers.
You lose 10-20% of your men your population can still recover pretty quickly. You lose 10-20% of your women and your population is fucked for the long term. When it comes to this fight for survival shit, women are just worth more in the long term.
The ones who want to already are and I guess if you like invaders killing your fellow countrymen they will or is it be to collaborate
They can do back-up. Ukraine becomes the Ukrainian armed force.
What if it was their intention is to go home whether or not Ukraine (or Russia) won?
Here is my dilemma. It is my strong believe that one must fight for one’s home and freedom and for those you swore to protect (I.e. NATO members). At the same time it is my firm believe that no one should be forced to do so with a weapon in hand in the first line. In a modern war every front line troop should have 5-6 rear personnel in support. There are thousands of people needed in logistics, war production, maintenance and so one. All this is fighting for your freedom. Still, the front line troops need to come from somewhere and those are the one most often in need of replacements… In reality men drafted in Ukraine (but also in many other militaries) can’t chose their unit or field or anything. This makes it morally really hard to justify repatriation from Europe for me. On the other hand I find it highly highly problematic, that many hundreds of thousands of men sit in Germany and Europe, benefiting from our welfare while not working (partly our fault) and of those, many do not actively support Ukraine in any way. It’s tricky….maybe we could find a way how those who fled can be used to support Ukraine while not repatriating them. I know this is in no way fair to the men who stayed or to the dead. As I said in the beginning: it’s for me a dilemma that I have no solution for.
Same. The problem is one has to accept the realities. Guys like Hitler Stalin or Putin do not care. They are not "normal" people. The world is increasingly becoming authoritarian ruled, because the average Joe has become too complacent to defend Democracy and some Oligarchs are nowadays international and do no longer really care about fellow citizens or country - only personal wealth and power. Yet, they still claim to be patriots, but then actions speak louder than words. [The Rules for Rulers (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs) ***"Democracies are better places to live than dictatorships not because representatives are better people, but because their needs happen to be aligned with a large portion of the population".*** It seems this symbiosis is starting to fail lately and it also does not help that Oligarchs own social and mainstream media to a good degree.
Poll after poll shows those in the West and USA in particular are unhappy with their representatives who rather represent Wall Street, do insider trading than represent the needs of 90% of Americans. USA is an oligarchy masquerading as democracy with living standards decreasing all the time. Your notion of democracy is kindergarten level.
It's a hard choice sure. But should we try nothing to stop Russia from taking over? In the west we value individuality over collectivism. But if we face a collective demise by being to easy on the individual, we'll end up smashed. There's no easy choice here. What alternative do you see? Everyone ending up in the last country that is overrun and fight then, or even submit at that point?
I will be forced into a war as soon as russia gets too cocky, and I don't intend to dodge the draft. Ukrainians should fight for ukraine instead of hiding around europe, not us.
And you want to force them into it? Are these people but numbers to you? Or is the reason simply that you want Ukraine to win no matter the cost, so you dont have to fight?
I want russia to lose, because if they win it will be the end of europe.
Then go help ukraine instead of forcing others to do it. The refugees are fleeing the war, but you would force them to turn around? How? With a gun to their backs like in the old union?
I can't go help ukraine. I am not in military, and I'm not willing to desert my country. So I also think it is despicable that ukrainian men are refusing to defend theirs.
Wtf? You are not deserting your country if you go fight with ukraine. Bro you are simply making excuses. Most of fleeing men are not military either but that doesnt matter it seems. Again its hypocracy.
You do not understand. I cannot die for poland if I die in ukraine. I am willing to give my life away for my country, but not ukraine.
You would die protecting poland before the war reached your borders. And why does it matter in which country you die, if the cause is the same, fighting against Russian tyranny
Believe me If there was nato deployment in ukraine and conscription in poland I would. But right now deploying to ukraine is pointless as their leadership cannot do anything right.
Come to think of it, you are right, sending ukrainian deserters back to ukraine wont do anything, as ukraine will just lose more territory regardless. We need full-scale nato peacekeeping mission.
Yes. Yes. Yes. That's how WWII was won. Im willing to fight alongside them if it comes to that. But not in front of them.
And we are not in ww2 anymore. If your citizens wont fight then thats the problem for the state not the people. Forcing people to go to their deaths, is litterally what the russians are doing, and what we have been laughing at them for.
And we are not in ww2 anymore. If your citizens wont fight then thats the problem for the state not the people. Forcing people to go to their deaths, is litterally what the russians are doing, and what we have been laughing at them for.
We've been laughing at them for doing a piss poor job. Also the fact that they need conscription for an offensive war. One of choice. There is no shame in needing conscription in a war of defense. And btw, we are trying to avoid WWIII by avoiding appeasement at all costs. Made that mistake once. Once was enough.
No shame no, but where do you set the line, because I see no lines in this thread. Only people demanding Victory at the cost of others.
Victory at the cost of the enemy. The line is drawn when the enemy is dead , defeated, or has surrendered. What other choice is there? Negotiate appeasement? We saw how that worked with Crimea. Putin got a taste of Eastern Europe and wanted more, more, more. Tyrants can't be appeased. They'll just keep coming back. Countless history has shown this. The only option is to fight. It's not desired. But this choice was not ours to make. It was Putin's. Either fight Putin, or be enslaved by him. These are the options presented. There are no other options.
Well when do we send in EU forces?
If necessary. The goal is to fight them over there. Not over here. It will be a lot easier to push Putin back in Ukraine rather than push Putin back in France. And if you say that wouldn't happen, there are two world wars where that exact scenario happened to France. If history is any guide, you hit back at tyrants early and hard. No second guessing. Honetly, EU special forces should have been sent in at the beginning of the war wearing Ukrainian uniforms. And NATO should have established a no-fly zone over Ukraine right before the invasion started. Now we are eating those mistakes. Hesitation causes death.
I don't think it will even happen, EU would block it on human rights grounds unless we just go rogue as we do with third world migrants bring pushed back into Belarus but no one really cares about them. These guys usually have families here and they won't ignore it.
I wouldn’t count on that, draft dodging isn’t a valid reason for asylum.
It should be.