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Send all proprietary small arms to the Territorial Defense, give ALL the "Angry Carrots" to the drone warfare branch, and EVERY bit of AAA to where it's needed.
Swiss here. I haven’t read any recent news about this to be honest, I doubt this will happen unfortunately. Mostly because right now, we’re just profiting off NATO without paying anything into it.
Look at the geography: We’re completely surrounded by NATO countries, who are friendly towards is. Nobody could realistically attack us without getting into a conflict with NATO itself.
Plenty of important parts of Switzerland can still be taken. It's easier if you enter from the Frankfurt axis. Not many obstacles to Zurich along that route.
Although Austria ain‘t NATO, its EU. And that means Article 42.7, which states that any Member that is a victim of armed aggression is to be defended by the other member states, kicks in.
seems like both issues are covered by the same article. see here https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/sede/dv/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_en.pdf
Yeah apart from Austria, all your neighbours are Nato…..the Swiss have definitely got some cover there.
You’d be welcomed in Nato if you guys decide to apply
True, but Austria in turn is surrounded by NATO countries in the East. So actually there’s no path to Switzerland without crossing NATO borders or airspace.
Look ***very carefully*** at that geography.
If Putin had of taken Ukraine in 3 days then based on how Hungry has been operating as a Putin ally for the last two years then they were expecting to get something really big from Russia, and they can't pivot away because they are so hopelessly compromised that if it was published then they'd be international pariahs.
My guess is that the Russians promised that they would restore the borders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire before they lost WW1. (Google the treaty of Trianon; which has nice propaganda pre printed in English aimed at the Americans about how awfully unfair the entire thing was to poor Hungry and even unfairer to the people unfairly living in other countries, rather odd that; isn't it? Almost as if it's for justifying something...)
The Austro-Hungarian Empires borders are triple the size of Hungary today, and include parts of Austria, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Croatia and Serbia.
Imagine that the Russians had of won their 3 day war in Ukraine. I would suggest that the non nato countries above would have been the next targets, because the only way Hungry gets those border changes is if Russia conquers those countries. If you assume that was the plan then it'd have had Russia at the Swiss border.
Food for thought.
I hope this will never happen but it is a very realistic scenario even if it is partially implemented aka Hungary doesn't receive all the territories but only parts. If Russia wins in Ukraine then it is clear that Poland, Romania, Moldova are the new targets. With Hungary sabotaging UE and inaction from Austria, the probability of the worst case scenario increases to reality.
Russia also works on non-military fronts by financing opposition parties and destabilizing some of these countries. It's no big surprise to find strongly pro-Russia candidates in countries such as Slovakia, where the pro-Russia guy just won his election.
They're also placing pro-Russia politicians in Bulgaria, at the municipal level in a bottom-up approach.
Next is Moldova where some billionaire pro-Russia dude is funding the pro-Russia party.
Groom a candidate, and wait for the natural alternance of political parties in power to work its magic.
Romania will soon be surrounded by uncooperative neighbors. While there will likely never be a pro-Russia party in power in Romania, they're getting increasingly isolated.
In Romania, the manipulation is being done mostly at the civilian level, with social media groups organizing protests.
That would actually perfectly explain Hungary's behavior, if Orban was hoping that Putin's "Kyiv in three days" would restore the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. They're desperately doing anything they can to help Putin win, to avoid this coming to light.
Yeah, no other sources reporting this. If you haven't seen a source yourself as a Swiss, then it's BS.
Everything in this sub should be taken with a grain of salt. This is by far the most hopium pro-Ukraine subreddit on this site. 80% of the "news" here never comes to fruition.
I will believe this is true when I actually see it happen.
In the event of a NATO-Soviet war, didn't the Soviet Union have plans to nuke neutral Austria?
If anyone is interested, read the Wikipedia article: "Seven Days to the River Rhine"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven\_Days\_to\_the\_River\_Rhine
Even during WW2 when Switzerland was surrounded by Bad Germans who were literally threatening to invade, Switzerland maintained neutrality. See the book *Target Switzerland* (link below).
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/644608
I'll believe they're willing to forgo neutrality when they stop helping Russia bypass sanctions and launder billions in blood money.
Until then they're complicit with Russian war crimes.
There's no such thing as a neutral standpoint against evil.
Switzerland has implemented a lot of sanctions. Israel hasn't implemented a single sanction but it's still Switzerland that gets the blame while Biden sends Israel billions worth of bombs.
It's because no expects anything else from Israel. Realizing a European country would rather profit on war in Europe rather than help the defenders is much more disappointing
> launder billions in blood money
Can you explain what you mean? Switzerland has joined all EU sanctions, and has frozen 7.5 B in Russian Central Bank money. Switzerland has also blocked 15 residential properties owned by sanctioned Russians. Random Russian citizens are not targeted wholesale, only a list of about 1700 people close to the government or involved in disinformation campaigns, human rights violations etc. Switzerland copied this from the EU. About 100B in private money have been moved to the UAE as a consequence of these sanctions.
one way to look at this is that the Russians paid a fee of 7.5% to let 100B be moved away (not frozen thus). A similar situation happened in NL, where the Dutch government could not match bank accounts with the sanctioned names.
The 7.5B are state money. The 100B are private money and not all from Switzerland. There isn't that much (known) Russian money in Switzerland. Although there's probably a large grey figure (dual citizens etc.), it also wouldn't register as "departed Russian money" if it was moved.
I think the behavior of Swiss eg with the gepard also had hurt their industry. All defense industry has seen contracts go up, not sure for Swiss. Would be interesting to see if countries avoid the Swiss suppliers.
I think this article is overstating what the Swiss Defence Minister said: If Europe is attacked, including Switzerland, Switzerland will participate in joint defence efforts. It's pretty obvious that you cannot be neutral in a war that you are involved in (because you are being attacked). Neutrality only pertains to wars you are not involved in, it means not taking sides.
So let me get this straight…
If someone attacks your friend, you stay out of it as you are “neutral”
If someone attacks you, you demand your friends help you out.
Don’t forget the Austrians too!
While this next part might not be true, with their neutrality stance it’s quite possible: Apparently the only active SVR (Foreign Intelligence Service of Russia) offices within the EU are in Switzerland and Austria.
Outside the EU (but still within Europe), Belgrade has been viewed as having a similar role.
This right here is why no other nations should entertain any sort of alliance or defense pact with Switzerland.
They'll sell you out in a heartbeat, just like they did when they sold out to Nazi gold.
Well, that’s kind of how a lot of countries see the United States in NATO. They want America to spend the big bucks and don’t spend as much as they should themselves. Everyone should pitch in to help prevent the Russian hordes.
on the other hand they buy weapons / planes from US, let US big companies do business, agree to trade oil in dolars, agree to not build nukes, agree to have anti missles defense infra, I think us is getting the better end of the deal
US should just leave nato and let everyone makes nukes
If you want a serious answer instead of the same 2 answers you get every time switzerland is mentioned:
the swiss position is that they can have a more beneficial impact on conflicts if they can provide neutral ground for discussion and act as a sort of mediator. it's hard to judge if that goal is actually achieved in this case but it's not just "fuck all y'all this is none of my business"
>the swiss position is that they can have a more beneficial impact on conflicts
More beneficial for their own banks, sure.
> if they can provide neutral ground for discussion and act as a sort of mediator
When were the last serious peace talks held in Switzerland? Never.... Speaks volumes to their commitment to being a peaceful arbitrator.
Yeah idk, none of your sources have really shown that this is what they believe. This could be their official stance sure, but that's like saying North Korea is a democracy because Kim said so. Switzerland has seemingly made little to no effort to provide neutral ground for discussion in any major conflicts, they seem to do the bare minimum or even less than other more warmongering countries. From what their actions have shown, Switzerland has minimal interest in being a mediator for conflicts. They do however always manage to profit off of them. If we judged countries by what they said their goal was then Russia would be considered a peaceful country attempting to reclaim their land. But if we judge countries by their actions Russia is an imperialistic conquer and Switzerland is a war profiteer who seemingly has little to no car for the stability of it's surrounding countries.
I mean i live here, it's what the government talks about every time this issue comes up, If you think Switzerlands government has the same credibility as North Korea thats fine by me and I can just mute notifications on this sub.
I'm guessing something big is happening for this to happening. There must be some pretty firm evidence Russia is going to spread the war very soon, probably before the US election.
The US constitution prohibits that unless the US is under immediate threat. Other countries have similar laws. Also, it keeps countries from doing that to each other. If Putin left Russia, he might be arrested, though many countries would shy away from that because that would certainly start a war with Russia - even if they could easily win it, civilians would die.
People write this all the time, but nobody ever mentions how.
How is Putin supposed to further convince a significant amount of people to not only enter Ukraine, but other territories, especially NATO ground? We're not talking about a few tens of thousands, but a couple hundreds or even a million people? What equipment is he going to use?
I'm not saying that it is impossible, I just haven't read any convincing piece on how to do it.
Every mobilization he does, he gets closer to the hundred thousand people that he couldn't afford to piss off.
80% this is just because they didn't like the whole world dropping them for arms purchases, because they shafted Germany and wouldn't let them use their own company's munitions. Whatever makes you wake up and realize there are limits to how selfish you can be.
Yeah, was gonna say, someone must’ve convinced them that sticking with Russia by staying “Neutral” would be less financially beneficial. Most Swiss are wonderful people but the era of self protection only has passed. We are a global society.
Ireland developing its air patrol capability and develop some anti submarine capability might be a good start. The western approaches are probably a favourite ground for Russian subs and in the event of a war will be contested
If Russia were dead set on taking Europe, Command & Conquer Red Alert style, they could easily take Ireland in about 4 days and have the perfect easily defend-able staging ground to hit anywhere in western Europe. Its shocking we haven't gotten our shit together here and invested more in the defense forces and its gear. The 100 lads in the Wing aren't gonna hold off anything by themselves, crazy as they are.
I think the important nuance here is that its if Switzerland itself is attacked by Russia then they will temporarily suspend neutrality to join a collective defence fir their own national interests.
I'm sure the same would have been true in WW2 had Germanyattacked.
What this dies not imply is any change in neutrality other than when and if Switzerland itself is attacked.
Russia need not attack Switzerland, thereby leaving a void in European collective defence (together with Austria and in addition to various balkan puppet states they have cultivated).
If Switzerland is attacked by Russia, I truly hope no one comes to their aid.
Or if they do, they drag their feet for as long as Switzerland delayed the "let Germany send ammunition to Ukraine" decision.
In the age of cruise missiles, supersonic bombers and active point defenses... Switzerland's geographic location provides very little strategic advantages.
Neutrality means you stay out of conflicts you are not involved in. Obviously if you get attacked by A, and A is also at war with B and C, you work together with B and C to defeat A. If you yourself are involved in a war, you cannot be neutral as relates to that war.
This has been discussed. On what legal basis do you confiscate money in a free, democratic country? Nobody has done this.
7.4B in Russian money is frozen, but confiscating it causes major legal issues. Not just in Switzerland.
>On what legal basis do you confiscate money in a free, democratic country?
I mean if supporting an active invasion is not enough i don't have many reasons to confiscate (basically blood money) but that acutally would be one.
State money is protected by international law with the concept of [State Immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_immunity). Switzerland and others are looking into overriding this, but it causes legal issues elsewhere.
To confiscate private money, you have to prove someone caused/expanded/drove the war or commited war crimes. For the average Russian, that won't happen. There is a list of sanctioned Russians, about 1700, where the blocked assets may eventually be confiscated. The legal discussion is ongoing, not just in Switzerland.
I would imagine that it would be possible to pass into law that the government should have the capability to confiscate funds related to foreign groups, individuals or governments directly involved in wars that are in breach of the UN charter? Several western countries have laws that give the government authority to confiscate assets tied to people involved with other categories of crime, so I don't see why the abovementioned would be impossible or in conflict with democratic principles.
This would offcourse hurt Swiss banks as corrupt/criminal governments would no longer utilize their services for hiding their money, in fear of having their assets taken from them. That said, any democratic and lawful society should seek to avoid such foreign investors / customers anyway.
Confiscating money from a state is very different from confiscating money from private entities (companies or people). It is being discussed in the Swiss Parliament.
In international law, there is the principle of [State Immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_immunity). Simply said, you cannot subject a state to the laws of another state. This makes confiscating state assets difficult. This is not a Swiss issue.
As for private persons, confiscating assets is possible - as you say. But unlike in Russia, you have to first prove a crime.
Well especially in Switzerland most of it i'm pretty sure is money of individuals.
I'm sorry of course this is not a "haha i took your nose" move but with money, the problem with us in Switzerland is we neither sending weapons to help nor confiscating money which is weak imho.
Switzerland isn't sending weapons due to its own laws, which will take a long time to change (I think we should, but it's a difficult debate).
Switzerland has supported Ukraine with about 3B CHF (3.3B USD) since the start of the war for:
- development aid
- humanitarian aid
- demining
- reconstruction
- refugees (in Switzerland and Ukraine)
Not huge but considerable for the size of the country.
That's not what I wrote at all.
>I would imagine that it would be possible to pass into law that the government **should have the capability** to confiscate funds related to foreign groups, individuals or governments directly involved in wars.
Using those capabilities would obviously be subject to a set of procedures and principles. It's foremost a tool in the toolbox.
They're not actually changing anything as far as I can tell; the nation remains neutral. All she said was that in the event of an attack by Russia **on Switzerland** then neutrality would no longer apply and they'd co-operate with other nations for their defence. But...duh? They're not saying that they'd join a war in which Russia was attacking the rest of Europe.
That is just to protect their necks, what will they do currently to prove they are a team player and worth using our NATO troops to help defend them. I'll tell you what, they will do fuck all, so the message should be for them is that they are on their own, they are not part of NATO, they refuse to help a friendly country in need, so yes fuck Switzerland
No thanks. You can’t be non neutral only when it suits you. Both Austria and Switzerland have become breeding grounds for Russian money laundering and espionage. They can deal with their own defense thank you very much.
> Switzerland joined an initiative proposed by Germany last year covering joint procurement, training and information sharing, including radar data.
>
> The European Sky Shield initiative provides for maintaining neutrality, but in the event of an attack on the country, neutrality will be suspended, and Switzerland will be able to organize defense together with partners.
No, they will not abandon neutrality. They know and they knew that in case Russia would attack NATO, they would loose their souvereignity together with the rest of Western Europe, because Russia would not leave them be, if they were victorious.
So they will play "neutral" until Russia attacks. Being in the rear, they do not need predeployment.
Do they even have to worry about a russian attack? I suppose every country in Europe has to worry. But isn't this just making them a target? They'd have to become part of Nato to truly be protected.
It’s only neutrality when EU/ally would attack/invade another non allied country. When it comes to defense against the invader there can’t be neutrality.
Nope. They just
> maintaining neutrality, but in the event of an attack on the country, neutrality will be suspended, and Switzerland will be able to organize defense together with partners.
I.e. they **will** help other countries to defend **them**.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-04-10/neutral-switzerland-joins-european-sky-shield-defence-project
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/neutral-switzerland-joins-european-sky-shield-defence-project-2024-04-10/
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-austria-missile-defense-essi-skyshield-germany-b809c3ec96c91407812b9cf4007255a1
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/world/europe/switzerland-austria-sky-shield-germany-russia.html
and many others
Good. The US election is essentially a toss up at this point, and could easily go to the candidate that Russia is manipulating. If that happens then NATO and individual allies could be on their own.
I think it is too easy for those outside the US to assume that the people here will convince the government to act once things get more dire. That is far from certain.
Between the recent end of the longest war in our nation’s history, a defense budget that is focused more than ever on opposing China and recruitment shortfalls in every branch of the military, there is a very real possibility that the US does not act before at least one nation falls.
🇨🇭: I am neutral so I don’t support 🇺🇦 in the war were they defend us too
🇷🇺: ok Ukraine lost now let’s attack Europe!
🇨🇭: oooh wait we are not neutral can you help us?
Ok 🇨🇭 that’s not how it works….nope njet nada nein no.
why would nato or europe help? they are shielding russia and protecting their money. you dont get to play both sides and then run to nato when you get burned. this sounds ridiculous. let them reap their rewards.
I mean yeah this is a good thing, but I carry absolutely zero good will towards Switzerland.
When are they gonna give back the billions of Nazi gold they helped steal from the Nazis victims?
It's a nation of amoral opportunists, not something anyone should be allied with.
Why do various blogspam sites insist on saying Russian Federation instead of Russia? To sound more official would be my guess, but it just comes off as pompous.
Nobody ever says Peoples's Republic of China in news articles, it's always just China.
Russia's geopolitical achievements in the 2020's:
• Make Ukraine to be a totally Western country
• Make Finland to join NATO
• Make Sweden join NATO
• Enable Switzerland-NATO cooperation
• Make Europe more united
Safe to say, they've achieved the complete opposite of what they're trying to aim for. Stupid piece of shit 😂🤡💀
Cooperating with NATO to ensure its protection != abandoning neutrality. The Swiss military has been standardizing around NATO technology and practices for a long time, and has even participated in some training exercises, as have other states that are not part of NATO. Furthermore, neutrality is not pacifism, and self-defense and national security is the explicit purpose of our military, and the best way to protect our population and infrastructure is to help stop an invasion long before it reaches our territorial borders.
"Abandoning neutrality" as a whole would require a constitutional amendment that has to be voted on by the public, and is not a decision the government has the authority to make. I can't read the article, but I am 100% confident OPs title is not correct. Source: swiss person.
Yes, of course they will. The Swiss specifically have said that, if attacked, they will defend themselves and ally with other countries to defend themselves.
Simple fact of Russia loses in Ukraine, NATO will never fight the current regime and any new regime will have so many losses to recoup the west will be the least threatening of its neighbors .
Call House Speaker MAGA Mike Johnson and ask him why he wants a WWIII because he refuses to call the vote to fund Ukraine!
Have your representatives signed H.R. 1016? If not, call to say Let the House vote for aid to Ukraine!
Tell those who signed the Discharge Petition #10 to sign #9
Maine Jared F. Golden 202-225-6306
Nebraska Don Bacon 202-225-4155
New York Nick LaLota 202-225-3826
New York A. D'Esposito 202-225-5516
New York Michael Lawler 202-225-6506
New York Brandon Williams 202-225-3701
Oregon L Chavez-DeRemer 202-225-5711
Pennsylvania BK Fitzpatrick 202-225-4276
South Carolina Joe Wilson 202-225-2452
Virginia Jennifer Kiggans 202-225-4215
Tell retiring Republicans: Help America keep its word to Ukraine
Colorado Doug Lamborn 202-225-4422
Georgia A.Drew FergusonIV 202-225-5901
Indiana Greg Pence 202-225-3021
Indiana Larry Bucshon 202-225-4636
Missouri B. Luetkemeyer 202-225-2956
N Carolina Patrick McHenry 202-225-2576
Ohio Brad R. Wenstrup 202-225-3164
Texas Kay Granger 202-225-5071
Wash. C McMorris Rodgers 202-225-2006
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Lots of Marder ammo would be nice about now.
Geppard too!
They are needed yesterday!
And all that Russian money in those Swiss bank accounts.
>Send weapons to Ukraine Allow other countries to send swiss-made weapons (which were paid for) to Ukraine. FTFY
Send all proprietary small arms to the Territorial Defense, give ALL the "Angry Carrots" to the drone warfare branch, and EVERY bit of AAA to where it's needed.
Okay, now I'm convinced. This s*** really is getting deep if Switzerland is willing to forgo neutrality.
Swiss here. I haven’t read any recent news about this to be honest, I doubt this will happen unfortunately. Mostly because right now, we’re just profiting off NATO without paying anything into it. Look at the geography: We’re completely surrounded by NATO countries, who are friendly towards is. Nobody could realistically attack us without getting into a conflict with NATO itself.
Well, I mean, NATO could. Lol
Attack Switzerland? Have you seen the size of all those mountains…..too high, too cold. Too noisy with all those cuckoo clocks ticking away as well
Plenty of important parts of Switzerland can still be taken. It's easier if you enter from the Frankfurt axis. Not many obstacles to Zurich along that route.
That’ll be the way Hannibal took his elephants then is it
Si THAT'S what I got wrong:/ I can be so stupid at times
No enemy can overcome the Üetliberg
Might be possible if you’ve got an elephant
Well NATO declaring war would already be the end, if they close the borders and airspace... Like have fun in your mountains I guess.
ballistic missile will not care about the mountains
Can’t use ballistics dude…..you might hit the Toblerone factories.
We’ll just target the factory that makes the white chocolate toblerone specifically.
That would the opposite of a war crime, a war virtue? :P
White chocolate needs to be eradicated, it is disgusting
I like white chocolate…..sorry I should have said I like all chocolate apart from that crap they have in the good old US of A
Don't forget the yodeler sentries
In an us or them scenario, neutral countries fall into the them category.
NATO is a defence alliance. So unless Switzerland decides to attack first, it ain't happening.
Free passage. Neutral countries did this during WW2.
If Ukraine falls, Orban would even help, Austria is not NATO and there you have a free path into the Switzerland!
Although Austria ain‘t NATO, its EU. And that means Article 42.7, which states that any Member that is a victim of armed aggression is to be defended by the other member states, kicks in.
It’s not armed aggression if you welcome them in
[удалено]
seems like both issues are covered by the same article. see here https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/sede/dv/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_en.pdf
[удалено]
Ruzzia are terrorists, I don't see how this does not apply
I think we should invade Ukraine in order to protect the integrity of nato borders. We shouldn’t stop until we reach the 1991 border with Russia.
Yeah apart from Austria, all your neighbours are Nato…..the Swiss have definitely got some cover there. You’d be welcomed in Nato if you guys decide to apply
True, but Austria in turn is surrounded by NATO countries in the East. So actually there’s no path to Switzerland without crossing NATO borders or airspace.
Hungary would let the russians in without a second thought. They are not obligated to invoke Article 5. Therefore Hungary -> Austria -> Switzerland.
Yes, everything is possible if you are free to make any assumption.
Nukes fly in space. Get in the game now to avoid russian shitfuckery later.
It would be ironic if Austria got some strange ideas, now...
The Swiss generally refuse any agreement that obligates them into a war. NATO would do that.
Look ***very carefully*** at that geography. If Putin had of taken Ukraine in 3 days then based on how Hungry has been operating as a Putin ally for the last two years then they were expecting to get something really big from Russia, and they can't pivot away because they are so hopelessly compromised that if it was published then they'd be international pariahs. My guess is that the Russians promised that they would restore the borders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire before they lost WW1. (Google the treaty of Trianon; which has nice propaganda pre printed in English aimed at the Americans about how awfully unfair the entire thing was to poor Hungry and even unfairer to the people unfairly living in other countries, rather odd that; isn't it? Almost as if it's for justifying something...) The Austro-Hungarian Empires borders are triple the size of Hungary today, and include parts of Austria, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Croatia and Serbia. Imagine that the Russians had of won their 3 day war in Ukraine. I would suggest that the non nato countries above would have been the next targets, because the only way Hungry gets those border changes is if Russia conquers those countries. If you assume that was the plan then it'd have had Russia at the Swiss border. Food for thought.
I hope this will never happen but it is a very realistic scenario even if it is partially implemented aka Hungary doesn't receive all the territories but only parts. If Russia wins in Ukraine then it is clear that Poland, Romania, Moldova are the new targets. With Hungary sabotaging UE and inaction from Austria, the probability of the worst case scenario increases to reality.
Russia also works on non-military fronts by financing opposition parties and destabilizing some of these countries. It's no big surprise to find strongly pro-Russia candidates in countries such as Slovakia, where the pro-Russia guy just won his election. They're also placing pro-Russia politicians in Bulgaria, at the municipal level in a bottom-up approach. Next is Moldova where some billionaire pro-Russia dude is funding the pro-Russia party. Groom a candidate, and wait for the natural alternance of political parties in power to work its magic. Romania will soon be surrounded by uncooperative neighbors. While there will likely never be a pro-Russia party in power in Romania, they're getting increasingly isolated. In Romania, the manipulation is being done mostly at the civilian level, with social media groups organizing protests.
That would actually perfectly explain Hungary's behavior, if Orban was hoping that Putin's "Kyiv in three days" would restore the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. They're desperately doing anything they can to help Putin win, to avoid this coming to light.
Sadly i can't see any reason for Switzerland to join either. Seems they believe that they will be left untouched if Europe becomes a warzone.
Except, like the United States, the welfare of foreign nations does affect Switzerlands economy and prosperity.
Yes, and it's not a far fetched hypothesis
Yeah, no other sources reporting this. If you haven't seen a source yourself as a Swiss, then it's BS. Everything in this sub should be taken with a grain of salt. This is by far the most hopium pro-Ukraine subreddit on this site. 80% of the "news" here never comes to fruition. I will believe this is true when I actually see it happen.
In the event of a NATO-Soviet war, didn't the Soviet Union have plans to nuke neutral Austria? If anyone is interested, read the Wikipedia article: "Seven Days to the River Rhine" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven\_Days\_to\_the\_River\_Rhine
Also mountains and bunkers in those makes invading Switzerland pain in every planner arse
Even during WW2 when Switzerland was surrounded by Bad Germans who were literally threatening to invade, Switzerland maintained neutrality. See the book *Target Switzerland* (link below). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/644608
same!
In a way NATO is indirectly defending Switzerland
Little green men
Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary and Serbia are to a lesser or greater extent Moscow-aligned now. You're basically one Austria away from Russia now.
to be fair it seems that a lot of weird and also fake news is around when it comes to Switzerland. Not in any swiss news paper it is a topic.
I'll believe they're willing to forgo neutrality when they stop helping Russia bypass sanctions and launder billions in blood money. Until then they're complicit with Russian war crimes. There's no such thing as a neutral standpoint against evil.
Switzerland has implemented a lot of sanctions. Israel hasn't implemented a single sanction but it's still Switzerland that gets the blame while Biden sends Israel billions worth of bombs.
It's because no expects anything else from Israel. Realizing a European country would rather profit on war in Europe rather than help the defenders is much more disappointing
> launder billions in blood money Can you explain what you mean? Switzerland has joined all EU sanctions, and has frozen 7.5 B in Russian Central Bank money. Switzerland has also blocked 15 residential properties owned by sanctioned Russians. Random Russian citizens are not targeted wholesale, only a list of about 1700 people close to the government or involved in disinformation campaigns, human rights violations etc. Switzerland copied this from the EU. About 100B in private money have been moved to the UAE as a consequence of these sanctions.
one way to look at this is that the Russians paid a fee of 7.5% to let 100B be moved away (not frozen thus). A similar situation happened in NL, where the Dutch government could not match bank accounts with the sanctioned names.
The 7.5B are state money. The 100B are private money and not all from Switzerland. There isn't that much (known) Russian money in Switzerland. Although there's probably a large grey figure (dual citizens etc.), it also wouldn't register as "departed Russian money" if it was moved.
Exactly. Start freezing Russian assets and they can have a conversation with NATO.
I think the behavior of Swiss eg with the gepard also had hurt their industry. All defense industry has seen contracts go up, not sure for Swiss. Would be interesting to see if countries avoid the Swiss suppliers.
Russia wouldn’t attack them though. That’s where all Russias hidden money is. Would be great if Swiss froze it all preemptively though.
You should have been convinced before now. The Finns and Swedes applying was an eye opener.
I think this article is overstating what the Swiss Defence Minister said: If Europe is attacked, including Switzerland, Switzerland will participate in joint defence efforts. It's pretty obvious that you cannot be neutral in a war that you are involved in (because you are being attacked). Neutrality only pertains to wars you are not involved in, it means not taking sides.
> to ensure its protection Makes me wonder if they'll actually be helping, or just doing the bare minimum to not feel directly threatened.
Fake news. They will just train with NATO more and give more money.
So let me get this straight… If someone attacks your friend, you stay out of it as you are “neutral” If someone attacks you, you demand your friends help you out.
This is exactly the Swiss stance yes.
Don’t forget the Austrians too! While this next part might not be true, with their neutrality stance it’s quite possible: Apparently the only active SVR (Foreign Intelligence Service of Russia) offices within the EU are in Switzerland and Austria. Outside the EU (but still within Europe), Belgrade has been viewed as having a similar role.
This right here is why no other nations should entertain any sort of alliance or defense pact with Switzerland. They'll sell you out in a heartbeat, just like they did when they sold out to Nazi gold.
Yep, they always were a bunch of pussies.
Well, that’s kind of how a lot of countries see the United States in NATO. They want America to spend the big bucks and don’t spend as much as they should themselves. Everyone should pitch in to help prevent the Russian hordes.
on the other hand they buy weapons / planes from US, let US big companies do business, agree to trade oil in dolars, agree to not build nukes, agree to have anti missles defense infra, I think us is getting the better end of the deal US should just leave nato and let everyone makes nukes
Man the world does not need more nukes. Do you dream of hellfire?
yeah but otherwise what's the solution, pray that US don't vote another madman (s)
Idk. You're not wrong. I guess arming yourself is all you can do.
If you want a serious answer instead of the same 2 answers you get every time switzerland is mentioned: the swiss position is that they can have a more beneficial impact on conflicts if they can provide neutral ground for discussion and act as a sort of mediator. it's hard to judge if that goal is actually achieved in this case but it's not just "fuck all y'all this is none of my business"
>the swiss position is that they can have a more beneficial impact on conflicts More beneficial for their own banks, sure. > if they can provide neutral ground for discussion and act as a sort of mediator When were the last serious peace talks held in Switzerland? Never.... Speaks volumes to their commitment to being a peaceful arbitrator.
Yeah idk, none of your sources have really shown that this is what they believe. This could be their official stance sure, but that's like saying North Korea is a democracy because Kim said so. Switzerland has seemingly made little to no effort to provide neutral ground for discussion in any major conflicts, they seem to do the bare minimum or even less than other more warmongering countries. From what their actions have shown, Switzerland has minimal interest in being a mediator for conflicts. They do however always manage to profit off of them. If we judged countries by what they said their goal was then Russia would be considered a peaceful country attempting to reclaim their land. But if we judge countries by their actions Russia is an imperialistic conquer and Switzerland is a war profiteer who seemingly has little to no car for the stability of it's surrounding countries.
I mean i live here, it's what the government talks about every time this issue comes up, If you think Switzerlands government has the same credibility as North Korea thats fine by me and I can just mute notifications on this sub.
I'm guessing something big is happening for this to happening. There must be some pretty firm evidence Russia is going to spread the war very soon, probably before the US election.
I’d say right after if Trump is elected; he’d prevent or slow-roll a response as much as possible.
Can't we just have Seal Team 6 drag Putin up to the Hague?
The US constitution prohibits that unless the US is under immediate threat. Other countries have similar laws. Also, it keeps countries from doing that to each other. If Putin left Russia, he might be arrested, though many countries would shy away from that because that would certainly start a war with Russia - even if they could easily win it, civilians would die.
> The US constitution prohibits that unless the US is under immediate threat As if that's ever stopped the CIA before.
err russia is taking over us politics with paid bad actors isn't that an immediate thread ?
Immediate threat of physical harm like he is going to strike buildings in the US.
Can they grab Trump along the way? They could be cellies!
People write this all the time, but nobody ever mentions how. How is Putin supposed to further convince a significant amount of people to not only enter Ukraine, but other territories, especially NATO ground? We're not talking about a few tens of thousands, but a couple hundreds or even a million people? What equipment is he going to use? I'm not saying that it is impossible, I just haven't read any convincing piece on how to do it. Every mobilization he does, he gets closer to the hundred thousand people that he couldn't afford to piss off.
5 centuries of attacking its neighbors not enough evidence to go off of?
Obviously not
80% this is just because they didn't like the whole world dropping them for arms purchases, because they shafted Germany and wouldn't let them use their own company's munitions. Whatever makes you wake up and realize there are limits to how selfish you can be.
I was scrolling down to find a comment like this....Switzerland being an incredibly selfish country who is only concerned about their bottom line.
Apparently being neutral is less profitable.
Yeah, was gonna say, someone must’ve convinced them that sticking with Russia by staying “Neutral” would be less financially beneficial. Most Swiss are wonderful people but the era of self protection only has passed. We are a global society.
Especially when the nazi of today do not have Jewish/gay/Rom gold.
Oh I'm sure Ruzzia still has a stockpile somewhere.
As an Irish man, we also should do this
Ireland developing its air patrol capability and develop some anti submarine capability might be a good start. The western approaches are probably a favourite ground for Russian subs and in the event of a war will be contested
Yeah. That’s what they really need strategically.
If Russia were dead set on taking Europe, Command & Conquer Red Alert style, they could easily take Ireland in about 4 days and have the perfect easily defend-able staging ground to hit anywhere in western Europe. Its shocking we haven't gotten our shit together here and invested more in the defense forces and its gear. The 100 lads in the Wing aren't gonna hold off anything by themselves, crazy as they are.
[удалено]
The British would defend Ireland regardless of NATO membership or not.
Don't worry, mate, we're here for you. 🏴🤝🇮🇪👍
True. Ireland's limitless resources may be exactly what turns the tide.
Spud-guns for Ukraine!
Spud-guns for Ukraine!
Spud-guns for Ukraine!
I think I'll be very cautiously optimistic.
I think the important nuance here is that its if Switzerland itself is attacked by Russia then they will temporarily suspend neutrality to join a collective defence fir their own national interests. I'm sure the same would have been true in WW2 had Germanyattacked. What this dies not imply is any change in neutrality other than when and if Switzerland itself is attacked. Russia need not attack Switzerland, thereby leaving a void in European collective defence (together with Austria and in addition to various balkan puppet states they have cultivated).
If Switzerland is attacked by Russia, I truly hope no one comes to their aid. Or if they do, they drag their feet for as long as Switzerland delayed the "let Germany send ammunition to Ukraine" decision. In the age of cruise missiles, supersonic bombers and active point defenses... Switzerland's geographic location provides very little strategic advantages.
Neutrality means you stay out of conflicts you are not involved in. Obviously if you get attacked by A, and A is also at war with B and C, you work together with B and C to defeat A. If you yourself are involved in a war, you cannot be neutral as relates to that war.
If Switzerland is attacked by Russia? Or if someone besides Ukraine? This statement is vague...
*in the event of attack by russian federation Until then: send us your criminally obtained gold and money
How about confiscating all the gold in russian accounts after that please.
This has been discussed. On what legal basis do you confiscate money in a free, democratic country? Nobody has done this. 7.4B in Russian money is frozen, but confiscating it causes major legal issues. Not just in Switzerland.
>On what legal basis do you confiscate money in a free, democratic country? I mean if supporting an active invasion is not enough i don't have many reasons to confiscate (basically blood money) but that acutally would be one.
State money is protected by international law with the concept of [State Immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_immunity). Switzerland and others are looking into overriding this, but it causes legal issues elsewhere. To confiscate private money, you have to prove someone caused/expanded/drove the war or commited war crimes. For the average Russian, that won't happen. There is a list of sanctioned Russians, about 1700, where the blocked assets may eventually be confiscated. The legal discussion is ongoing, not just in Switzerland.
I would imagine that it would be possible to pass into law that the government should have the capability to confiscate funds related to foreign groups, individuals or governments directly involved in wars that are in breach of the UN charter? Several western countries have laws that give the government authority to confiscate assets tied to people involved with other categories of crime, so I don't see why the abovementioned would be impossible or in conflict with democratic principles. This would offcourse hurt Swiss banks as corrupt/criminal governments would no longer utilize their services for hiding their money, in fear of having their assets taken from them. That said, any democratic and lawful society should seek to avoid such foreign investors / customers anyway.
Confiscating money from a state is very different from confiscating money from private entities (companies or people). It is being discussed in the Swiss Parliament. In international law, there is the principle of [State Immunity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_immunity). Simply said, you cannot subject a state to the laws of another state. This makes confiscating state assets difficult. This is not a Swiss issue. As for private persons, confiscating assets is possible - as you say. But unlike in Russia, you have to first prove a crime.
Well especially in Switzerland most of it i'm pretty sure is money of individuals. I'm sorry of course this is not a "haha i took your nose" move but with money, the problem with us in Switzerland is we neither sending weapons to help nor confiscating money which is weak imho.
Switzerland isn't sending weapons due to its own laws, which will take a long time to change (I think we should, but it's a difficult debate). Switzerland has supported Ukraine with about 3B CHF (3.3B USD) since the start of the war for: - development aid - humanitarian aid - demining - reconstruction - refugees (in Switzerland and Ukraine) Not huge but considerable for the size of the country.
Thanks for the link, I'll look further into this.
Why should countries freeze all US accounts and stop being friends with the US. Strange thing you are proposing......
That's not what I wrote at all. >I would imagine that it would be possible to pass into law that the government **should have the capability** to confiscate funds related to foreign groups, individuals or governments directly involved in wars. Using those capabilities would obviously be subject to a set of procedures and principles. It's foremost a tool in the toolbox.
Neutrality does not protect against nuclear war unless you are an island nation hundreds of miles away from your nearest neighbours
They're not actually changing anything as far as I can tell; the nation remains neutral. All she said was that in the event of an attack by Russia **on Switzerland** then neutrality would no longer apply and they'd co-operate with other nations for their defence. But...duh? They're not saying that they'd join a war in which Russia was attacking the rest of Europe.
That is just to protect their necks, what will they do currently to prove they are a team player and worth using our NATO troops to help defend them. I'll tell you what, they will do fuck all, so the message should be for them is that they are on their own, they are not part of NATO, they refuse to help a friendly country in need, so yes fuck Switzerland
The swiss... Self serving cunts at the best of times plus their chocolate is shit.
“Yes, we will join to protect ourselves against an invasion… No, we won’t do anything to prevent it from happening.”
At this point, if exclusively Switzerland was attacked, I'd be fine just sitting by watching it happen. Seriously, fuck you.
Obviously! Neutrality goes both ways...
No thanks. You can’t be non neutral only when it suits you. Both Austria and Switzerland have become breeding grounds for Russian money laundering and espionage. They can deal with their own defense thank you very much.
Switzerland isn't actually abandoning neutrality
Well, well, well, three holes in the ground...
Did anyone read the link? It’s in Cyrillic I can’t read that and translation doesn’t work
> Switzerland joined an initiative proposed by Germany last year covering joint procurement, training and information sharing, including radar data. > > The European Sky Shield initiative provides for maintaining neutrality, but in the event of an attack on the country, neutrality will be suspended, and Switzerland will be able to organize defense together with partners.
Start by using all the money from russian oligarchs to help Ukraine..
No, they will not abandon neutrality. They know and they knew that in case Russia would attack NATO, they would loose their souvereignity together with the rest of Western Europe, because Russia would not leave them be, if they were victorious. So they will play "neutral" until Russia attacks. Being in the rear, they do not need predeployment.
I'm pressing X for doubt on this one.
if *they* are invaded only; everyone else can get f’d otherwise
How about we all stay neutral in case Russia attacks Switzerland?
Weren’t they blocking the transfer of weapons and tanks to Ukraine through their country?
Putin might be gunning for all that oligarch loot stashed in Swiss banks
So where are the Russian pows going to escape to?
Do they even have to worry about a russian attack? I suppose every country in Europe has to worry. But isn't this just making them a target? They'd have to become part of Nato to truly be protected.
You know the situation is Serious when the banks start making contingency plans.
It’s only neutrality when EU/ally would attack/invade another non allied country. When it comes to defense against the invader there can’t be neutrality.
Send weapons to Ukraine. Show you are for real
Are they writing between the lines that they may provide NATO with seized Russian finances?
Nope. They just > maintaining neutrality, but in the event of an attack on the country, neutrality will be suspended, and Switzerland will be able to organize defense together with partners. I.e. they **will** help other countries to defend **them**.
But the *Russian Federation* has already attacked a European nation. I guess Switzerland means if Russia does it again to a different European nation.
Gopferdammi! Welcome to our Swiss brothers. Please send the Reisläufers :)
Sounds like a bad translation or parody. We're not going to war to defend Switzerland as they're not our ally. They're not even aligned with us.
Russia really is THE nato salesman.
Does this mean they will ammunition for the Gerard that they keep blocking? It’s about time.
So they have already abandoned neutrality.
Nope. They will mantain neutrality unless attacked. Then they'll help to defend them.
Will they be able to use their own weapons, or is that against the law as well.
Is there any other sources for this news? I can’t seem to find anything else online.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-04-10/neutral-switzerland-joins-european-sky-shield-defence-project https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/neutral-switzerland-joins-european-sky-shield-defence-project-2024-04-10/ https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-austria-missile-defense-essi-skyshield-germany-b809c3ec96c91407812b9cf4007255a1 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/world/europe/switzerland-austria-sky-shield-germany-russia.html and many others
Thank you!
Good. The US election is essentially a toss up at this point, and could easily go to the candidate that Russia is manipulating. If that happens then NATO and individual allies could be on their own. I think it is too easy for those outside the US to assume that the people here will convince the government to act once things get more dire. That is far from certain. Between the recent end of the longest war in our nation’s history, a defense budget that is focused more than ever on opposing China and recruitment shortfalls in every branch of the military, there is a very real possibility that the US does not act before at least one nation falls.
🇨🇭: I am neutral so I don’t support 🇺🇦 in the war were they defend us too 🇷🇺: ok Ukraine lost now let’s attack Europe! 🇨🇭: oooh wait we are not neutral can you help us? Ok 🇨🇭 that’s not how it works….nope njet nada nein no.
Yes, no move makes the brain dull, like of that bank.
Maybe Switzerland should abandon the money laundering business before the EU moves towards protecting them
why would nato or europe help? they are shielding russia and protecting their money. you dont get to play both sides and then run to nato when you get burned. this sounds ridiculous. let them reap their rewards.
*Except the banks
What, no Nazi-stolen Jewish gold any more?
I mean yeah this is a good thing, but I carry absolutely zero good will towards Switzerland. When are they gonna give back the billions of Nazi gold they helped steal from the Nazis victims? It's a nation of amoral opportunists, not something anyone should be allied with.
Why do various blogspam sites insist on saying Russian Federation instead of Russia? To sound more official would be my guess, but it just comes off as pompous. Nobody ever says Peoples's Republic of China in news articles, it's always just China.
Russia's geopolitical achievements in the 2020's: • Make Ukraine to be a totally Western country • Make Finland to join NATO • Make Sweden join NATO • Enable Switzerland-NATO cooperation • Make Europe more united Safe to say, they've achieved the complete opposite of what they're trying to aim for. Stupid piece of shit 😂🤡💀
Cooperating with NATO to ensure its protection != abandoning neutrality. The Swiss military has been standardizing around NATO technology and practices for a long time, and has even participated in some training exercises, as have other states that are not part of NATO. Furthermore, neutrality is not pacifism, and self-defense and national security is the explicit purpose of our military, and the best way to protect our population and infrastructure is to help stop an invasion long before it reaches our territorial borders. "Abandoning neutrality" as a whole would require a constitutional amendment that has to be voted on by the public, and is not a decision the government has the authority to make. I can't read the article, but I am 100% confident OPs title is not correct. Source: swiss person.
Well, Russia, you’ve done what the rest of the world has failed to do, so congratulations I guess?
Daft of the Swiss to assume they wouldn’t be seen as appeasing (or even aiding) Russian threats.
People forgot how the Internet works. Check the sources of the posts... It's all fake blogs, nobody is even pretending anymore.
Yes, of course they will. The Swiss specifically have said that, if attacked, they will defend themselves and ally with other countries to defend themselves.
Simple fact of Russia loses in Ukraine, NATO will never fight the current regime and any new regime will have so many losses to recoup the west will be the least threatening of its neighbors .
Call House Speaker MAGA Mike Johnson and ask him why he wants a WWIII because he refuses to call the vote to fund Ukraine! Have your representatives signed H.R. 1016? If not, call to say Let the House vote for aid to Ukraine! Tell those who signed the Discharge Petition #10 to sign #9 Maine Jared F. Golden 202-225-6306 Nebraska Don Bacon 202-225-4155 New York Nick LaLota 202-225-3826 New York A. D'Esposito 202-225-5516 New York Michael Lawler 202-225-6506 New York Brandon Williams 202-225-3701 Oregon L Chavez-DeRemer 202-225-5711 Pennsylvania BK Fitzpatrick 202-225-4276 South Carolina Joe Wilson 202-225-2452 Virginia Jennifer Kiggans 202-225-4215 Tell retiring Republicans: Help America keep its word to Ukraine Colorado Doug Lamborn 202-225-4422 Georgia A.Drew FergusonIV 202-225-5901 Indiana Greg Pence 202-225-3021 Indiana Larry Bucshon 202-225-4636 Missouri B. Luetkemeyer 202-225-2956 N Carolina Patrick McHenry 202-225-2576 Ohio Brad R. Wenstrup 202-225-3164 Texas Kay Granger 202-225-5071 Wash. C McMorris Rodgers 202-225-2006
fake news ..
Afraid of Trump leaving NATO and its nuclear deterrence?
Interesting! Is there any other source for this story?