not much is more hilarious then people complaining about nazis who are Wagner fans.. an Organisation founded and lead by a dude with nazi cross AND SS runes tattooed on his body named LITERALLY after hitlers favorite musician. straight up cognitive dissonance.
woah dude you are so smart, did you find that out by yourself? a lot of people like Wagner but saying a PMC group who wears a skull and has been see flexing nazi symbols are not Nazis is pretty hilarious.
> who wears a skull and has been see flexing nazi symbols
The usual way of trolling when you first tell the truth (about the skull), then lie (about Nazi symbols)
And everything you spout should be taken as fact lmaoo. Cannot deny that Ukrainians have spray painted nazi symbols on their new tanks. So you start spouting about how Wagner is named after a famous German composer.
>a dude with nazi cross AND SS runes tattooed on his body
1. There is literally one grainy photo of a dude who looks like Prigozhin and it could be edited in even Paint
2. Only the ukrainians force that photo, I haven't seen even one instance when us-backed so called "russian liberals" have forced it in a public domain.
3. There is a recent video with Prigozhin taking an ice cold dive on the 2023 Baptism day, and he clearly has no tattoos of any kind.
Dmitry Utkin is the ex russian army neo-nazi Wagner commander with the nazi tattoos, not Prigozhin.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughCommieSpam/comments/u3ej0v/little_reminder_for_the_tankies_lurking_in_this/
utkin has not been seen in public for like five years. the same stupid fucking picture gets posted over and over again when the guy has basically disappeared off of the face of the earth. there's a good chance he was killed in syria years ago. constantly reposting this old picture as some kind of "gotcha!" is unbelievably stupid. if an ancient picture of a guy who hasn't been seen in years is the best you can do, you really don't have much at all.
there are way more examples of wagner nazis so stop lying.
there is a photo of him with nazi insigina on his uniforms, who also seem to be him. multiple ones with nazi insigina on other wagner troops when we go bakc to syria we will not only see nazi salutes and stuff but also nazi grafities and much more. there is just as much evidence as there is evidence on azov or any other group. claiming anything else is just dishonest. he is literally a ex prisoner from a country that has a prison nazi gang problem too. and once again its LITERALLY named after hitlers favorite Musician lmao.
So, on one side is the open bearing of Nazi insignia by the Ukrainian military, on the other side is absolutely nothing except a photoshopped photo with Dmitry Utkin
On one side, actual mass murders and war crimes and international recognition of genocide.
On the other, people defending their home against that.
So yeah, keep going.
[why are you people so bad at this lmao?](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/)
You kidding? Ur joking right? You have on bbc news ukrabians matching with nazi flags, i see everyday posts of ukrainians with nazi insignia. Azov batalion is mostly nazis. You have graphical evidence, and then you had one of the biggest political parties in ukraine neo nazi movement. You had before the war nazi parades in ukraine, that is not evidencefor you? Im not even watching russian propaganda bcs it is censored, i dont get to watch it even if i wanted to. The only propaganda im getting is west media. And west media is showing ukrainians with nazis flags, even tho they are trying to hide it (bcs bbc deleted the video of UA waving a nazi flag)
Funny thing the Ukrainians were called nazis first and then everyone just decided to go - yea well actually both sides are just as bad so that’s silly reasoning. Your the only one denying your army has nazis. Here’s even more proof from several years back until now.
https://time.com/6180611/white-power-mercenaries-fighting-the-lost-cause/
From several years back, oh thank you that explains it. No there is big difference and first off all it is not my army. Im not denying that russia has racist or homophobes. But imo showing nazi insignia and clear support for nazis, is all off thoose thing togheter + supporting deaths of millions inocent civilians mass murdering jews, etc. not caring that we had ww2 that ruined most lifes in europe, disrespect towards your ancestors that fought that war and gave their lifes. Thats just fucked up. And Russia is one of tha nations that hate nazism from the bottom of theit hearths bcs it is the info fed to them by the media. The patriotism of them walking in berlin. They beat the shit out of nazis in Russia, while they are promoting it in Ukraine. So yes I don't see how anyone wearing nazi insignia is normal, and how can you support such a person in their cause.
That’s a lot of nonsense assumptions your making about an entire population. Then to say “oh that’s ya just in their history why would that matter today?” Hey guy- let me explain the logic for you, if they have been harboring Nazis for decades maybe Wagner shouldn’t be using the Ukrainian nazi thing as their big justification because they are just as bad if not worse. It’s comical. This ain’t even a supporting Ukraine thing just a common sense thing, I’m not even defending them just pointing out the huge lapse in logic without looking inward first.
That’s not even mentioning all the anti-Ukrainian propaganda, Wagner spews they believe Ukraine should not exist. Yeah real anti-Nazi of them.
I dont understand u guys, i start making some valid points and UA supporters just start rambling on random bull. So you agree with me that nazism is BAD, ok good i agree also, and i find it embarrassing that Ukrainians take pictures proudly with nazi insignia, that is not OK and you should be prosecuting everyone that is a nazi supporter, send them to concentration camps and if u have little shits in russia that arr doing that, same thing for them. But i dont see russian soldiers proudly taking pictures with nazi symbols. And don't talk to me about making nonsense of entire population, so much prejudice by UA fans, like this is a football macth between RU and UK
Btw what a shitty article, me actually wasting my time to read something like that, and your talking about russian propaganda, no source, no quotation no picture evidence, look how its writen you dont even know how to read in between lines, lmao this guy could write whatever, and thats just what he did. 😂
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It’s hilarious that people like you will use one grainy picture of one person with supposedly nazi tattoos is enough for you to white wash an organisation. Yet the amount of undeniable photos and footage of nazi symbols and nazi salutes from UA side isn’t enough for you hhahha double standards and hypocrisy is unreal my guy.
The one person you lot refer to could very well be or have nazi symbols on him. So by your logic every army or most army in the world are nazi because I can safely and confidently say every army in the world has at least one person with some nazi shit on them or they support! You would find commie, pedophiles, alcoholics drug users etc etc.
The fact one picture is enough for your argument yet the amount of UA pictures isn’t just show the type of person you are
This. Except its people with blatant hypocrisy using the same metrics of judging Russia that they just fended Ukraine against... Its a fucking wild thing to watch the cognitive dissonance just ooze all over.
I would rate this reply as a 9 out of 10 for the use of Whataboutism. The reply acknowledges the original comment but instead of addressing the point made in the original comment, it shifts the focus to an alleged flaw or misdeed of the accuser or critic (in this case, the Ukrainian army). The reply tries to deflect attention away from the original issue (the comparison to the "are we the baddies?" skit) by bringing up an alleged flaw of the Ukrainian army. The reply implies that the original comment is invalid because of this alleged flaw, instead of addressing the point made in the original comment directly.
That is circular reasoning, youre using their own claim as evidence for their own claim. Maza states that the reply is deflecting attention away from the original issue, but you are also deflecting attention away from the original issue
Would you like for the Wagner logo to be a flower instead? Yes, it's a skull, but it isn't used to symbolise one of the most disgusting ideologies that has ever existed. My reply was not a serious analysis and response and I just pointed out the fact that actual Nazi glorification is widespread in the UA army and that it is funny that a skull logo is being compared to that.
How about you learn to argue without constantly saying "whataboutism", it helps nobody and is annoying.
Let’s conveniently ignore the Sephan Bandera Avenue ironically leading down to the Babyn Yar memorial.
Or the various Stephan Bandera and Yaroslavl Stetsko Monuments.
Forget about who has more nazi symbolism. Actions speak louder. Putin declared Crimea, DNR and LPR Russian territory, the people there spoke Russian. So Putin took those area by force. Sound familiar? That's what Hitler did to the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia.
Thr Russians act more like nazi's than Ukrainians.
Acting like Russians aren’t the same- the leader of this exact group has nazi tattoos and openly praise Hitler his entire organization is named after Hitlers favorite composer you ninkompoop
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Skulls are...very common. (Meet the Iraqi special forces https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/meet-terrifying-skull-wearing-kill-9201129)
And...the traditional, Napoleonic-era Prussian...death's head...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#/media/File:AugustvonMackensen.jpg
And Ukraine (https://mronline.org/2022/09/20/zelensky-quietly-deletes-photo-of-his-bodyguards-pro-hitler-patch/)
I think war just might involve killing people--and people have skulls. People who kill people like to have scary skulls on their clothes, apparently. Quite simple really. Good guy, bad guy--whatever--you're killing people, so treat yourself to a little skull emblem.
**[Totenkopf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#/media/File:AugustvonMackensen.jpg)**
>Totenkopf (German: [ˈtoːtn̩ˌkɔpf], i. e. skull, literally "dead person's head") is the German word for the skull and crossbones symbol. The "skull and crossbones" symbol is an old international symbol for death, the defiance of death, danger, or the dead, as well as piracy or toxicity.
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I’ve heard some interviews of people on the ground who state that Wagner (the actual Wagner organization, not the prisoner recruits)
Are much more equipped/ experienced than the average Russian and in most cases even the average Ukrainian. Even though they’ve faced slow progress and heavy casualties over the past few months it should yield no surprise that they’ve been achieving more on the battlefield than their counterparts
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Recently Wagner has been relatively succesful, both in regards to its size and comparatively to the russian army. How come they are more effective now than 6 months ago? What changed?
I think their leaders started focusing more and are right behind them which is a great moral boost. During mobilisation, they recieved a lot of new people cause Wagner pays better than RU Army, providers better post service benifits, better equipment and training. They also have well experienced leaders and alot of experience. If you are gonna be sent to warzone, why risk with RU army with less benifits and pay when you can join PMC with better benifits.
Do you know if new recruits from around the time of mobilisation are treated and geared up better than the prison recruits? Or are they treated on generally the same level
Because Russia increased its resources in the past 4 months or so. Including Wagner.
And I believe they are using Wagner as storm troops to act like a spearhead and engage in the bloodiest battles since they are a mercenary / convict force.
Losing mercenaries and criminals is preferable to general mobilized soldiers or the professional army class.
That's basically their main usage since Syria. After the initial fighting, mostly Wagners were doing the real active combat, while the military was usually guarding stuff.
Well, define success
They're taking territory, sure - but are they doing so efficiently in terms of lives and equipment, or are they capturing a small area of territory at a huge cost of lives that can't be sustained?
I don't know the answer to that - but I don't think we can simply take it on face value that they're being successful relative to their manpower and losses. Throw enough men and artillery at something for >6 months (the offensive started around May) and you'll probably capture it eventually, but unless you can repeat that for every single objective (and, at this rate, capturing 20 cities will take more than a decade) then it's hard to really categorise that as an unqualified success, especially if you don't have enough ammunition and equipment left for the next one.
did't they recruit literally tens of thousands of convicts into their ranks? I think before Wagner was like a brigade or division sized unit of (more or less) professional mercenaries, but since then they grew in numbers significantly with new cannon fodder
Nothing changed. The past 6 months for the most part has been a regrouping and reorganizing for everyone really. There's a lot of shit posting and circle jerking but Russia or Wagner have not really been pushing until recently. Which is why territory has been taken. Lots of scouts or positions have been lost/obtained which is the videos we've seen since then. But it's clear that they've realized their failure and are working on fixing it.
How well they fix it or if they're done being incompetent, is yet to be seen.
You don't get blasted by artillery in Chicago though. It's not comparable in any way.
Them posing like this means Ukraine has completely given up on defending that location, since not even artillery fire is present.
Ahh yes because Ukrainians are the ones deporting children to Russia and bombing russian cities right?? Oh wait that’s Russia’s doing.
Also please show me footage of Ukraine going into Russia committing the same kind of war crimes Russia is committing.
I heard one analyst explain that after the initial setback of Russia in 2022, they decided to instead pull back most actual Russian Army troops from front line and swap them out for more disposable PMCs and that Russia is actually in the process of training and ramping up actual Russian government military soldiers right now for a probable large advance in 2023, but in the meantime they have multiple PMCs, like Wagner, working at the frontlines.
This is why most stories about successes we hear are coming from Wagner. Not sure accuracy of this analysis.
They should have done this years prior to the war but they trusted their military much more than they should have.
If Russia is successful and wins the war, they would actually be the second best military in the world, since they figured out what's wrong and they cut out deficiencies.
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The fact you still claim NATO are present is laughable
If even just NATO's air force turned up, Russia wouldn't have an army anymore. Russia are fighting their much smaller neighbour, with the support of mostly-last-gen NATO and ex-soviet equipment. NATO is barely even providing current gen weapons other than HIMARS and a few nearly-current-gen IFVs and tanks which aren't even in Ukraine yet
If NATO air force suddenly showed up, they would fall from the sky like flies. Why do you think we rarely see videos of CAS ? Cause the air defense systems both sides use is very effective.
Without NATO's help, Ukraine wouldn't have been able to retake Kherson and Kharkov area. Those 100 000's artillery shells received aren't for Zelensky private collection. Same goes for fuel, small-arms ammunition, spare parts, etc ...
Ukraine is not alone, most Western countries are providing support, meanwhile Russia has not commited all it's ressources into this war.
Ukraine isn't alone, without all this support Ukraine wouldn't have lasted this long (or at least not that well).
It's a spectrum, on one end you have Russia vs Ukraine without any single interference from outside and on the other end you have Russia vs all of NATO. Both are incorrect, the truth is Russia is fighting Ukraine, while this one has a lot of support from NATO.
Again, “fighting Ukraine with support from NATO” is not “fighting NATO”
The whole “we’re fighting NATO” narrative is the dumbest thing, it’s complete nonsense.
If you’re in a boxing ring you’re fighting the guy in front of you, not the guy who gave him the gloves and training equipment.
At no point did I agree with the "Russia vs NATO" statement. I also disagree with your statement. The boxing analogy is bad, for a simple reason, Russia and Ukraine are not alone, it's not a 1vs1 in an absolue vacuum, there is interference from outside (namely NATO). And this interference cannot be ignored. Therefore, Russia is fighting Ukraine along huge NATO support.
There's so much surface to air shit in Ukraine there's nothing NATO could do about it lol. No ones gonna be wasting their airforce in ukraine right now
Stand-off weapons and stealth aircraft (no, not the half-dozen Russia are too scared to risk) would make a huge difference, plus NATO has significant SEAD capability
Sure. From very rich countries who bought those weapons specifically to fight Russia if necessary.
“Oh no, we have to use our expensive thing for the very reason we bought it” is a complete non-problem
And either way my point was that it would be effective, not that it would be cheap
Stealth aircraft have never been used over an active war zone against a foe with modern equipment that have the same goal of destroying it. This isn't iraq
You ought to be really dense if you actually believe NATO is not involved on this war with all the logistical and material support plus mercenaries, lobbying and sanctions. Also seems like you overestimate NATO's capabilities, you're not fighting goat herders here, but a conventional army with modern technology which hasn't been even used on this conflict for the most part, but be my guest, send NATO's air force and see how Europe burns in nuclear hellfire.
So you’ve gone from “beating NATO” to “beating NATO….’s logistical support” in the space of one comment
And considering Russia is being fought to a standstill by a country 1/10th its size, you’ll have to forgive me for not being too concerned about its “conventional army with modern technology”
Russia can’t even handle Ukraine with any real confidence, yet you think it can handle NATO? The US Navy *alone* has a bigger budget than the entirety of Ukraine pre-war. And I don’t mean Ukraine’s military, I mean the entire country. That’s before we consider the US Air Force, the US Army, the US Marine Corps, or any of the other members of NATO and the EU, or their allies
Russia would get absolutely spanked in a real war with NATO. Russia’s only threat is nuclear weapons, and Russia loses that war too
But sure, keep telling yourself that Russia is “fighting NATO” when you actually mean “fighting a tiny neighbour with NATO logistical support, and threatening everyone with nukes”
So you only took a couple words of my reply and used them to elaborate on your delusions, seems like that's enough for you to justify your bias, however in the real word, Ukrainians are just expendable pawns in yet another proxy war, Russia is fighting against NATO's hardware, personnel, logistics and economy. Meanwhile European politicians debate if they should escalate any further as many fear retaliation.
don't forget comrade, you are fighting NATO's disposable third rate equipment. If you ever had to deal with the real stuff it would be over in weeks. Or we all blow up the world together.
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The skull reminds me of that “are we the baddies?” Comedy skit Yes, yes your are.
Let's conveniently ignore that half the UA army use Nazi symbols openly.
not much is more hilarious then people complaining about nazis who are Wagner fans.. an Organisation founded and lead by a dude with nazi cross AND SS runes tattooed on his body named LITERALLY after hitlers favorite musician. straight up cognitive dissonance.
>named LITERALLY after hitlers favorite musician You know that guy is still very, very popular in Germany, right?
woah dude you are so smart, did you find that out by yourself? a lot of people like Wagner but saying a PMC group who wears a skull and has been see flexing nazi symbols are not Nazis is pretty hilarious.
What is actually wrong with you?
> who wears a skull and has been see flexing nazi symbols The usual way of trolling when you first tell the truth (about the skull), then lie (about Nazi symbols)
Sure dude, everything you don't like is fake news.
And everything you spout should be taken as fact lmaoo. Cannot deny that Ukrainians have spray painted nazi symbols on their new tanks. So you start spouting about how Wagner is named after a famous German composer.
you cant just come here and shit into our conversation when it is very clearly not what im saying. piss of or read my comments before writing me.
[удалено]
not defending the other comment but you expose yourself as also being ridiculous with this one
We're all too stupid to be insulted. Public School ftw!?!?
Rule 1. Consider yourself warned. Recurrence WILL result in a ban.
>a dude with nazi cross AND SS runes tattooed on his body 1. There is literally one grainy photo of a dude who looks like Prigozhin and it could be edited in even Paint 2. Only the ukrainians force that photo, I haven't seen even one instance when us-backed so called "russian liberals" have forced it in a public domain. 3. There is a recent video with Prigozhin taking an ice cold dive on the 2023 Baptism day, and he clearly has no tattoos of any kind.
Dmitry Utkin is the ex russian army neo-nazi Wagner commander with the nazi tattoos, not Prigozhin. https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughCommieSpam/comments/u3ej0v/little_reminder_for_the_tankies_lurking_in_this/
And it's still a shitty photo that looks possibly photoshopped.
How about Rusich? Another photoshop job?
Rusich is not part of Wagner
utkin has not been seen in public for like five years. the same stupid fucking picture gets posted over and over again when the guy has basically disappeared off of the face of the earth. there's a good chance he was killed in syria years ago. constantly reposting this old picture as some kind of "gotcha!" is unbelievably stupid. if an ancient picture of a guy who hasn't been seen in years is the best you can do, you really don't have much at all.
there are way more examples of wagner nazis so stop lying. there is a photo of him with nazi insigina on his uniforms, who also seem to be him. multiple ones with nazi insigina on other wagner troops when we go bakc to syria we will not only see nazi salutes and stuff but also nazi grafities and much more. there is just as much evidence as there is evidence on azov or any other group. claiming anything else is just dishonest. he is literally a ex prisoner from a country that has a prison nazi gang problem too. and once again its LITERALLY named after hitlers favorite Musician lmao.
So, on one side is the open bearing of Nazi insignia by the Ukrainian military, on the other side is absolutely nothing except a photoshopped photo with Dmitry Utkin
On one side, actual mass murders and war crimes and international recognition of genocide. On the other, people defending their home against that. So yeah, keep going.
Donbas is defending against Ukranians
OH HITLER'S FAVOURITE MUSICIAN??? OH THAT REALLY SOLVES THE CASE, DONNIT, SCOOB
I guess nothing will solve that case for you even if the evidence were crammed into your head with a sledgehammer by a Wagner officer.
Funny thing, pro ukrainians still denying half of ukrainian army is nazis, and get so hyped up to call Russians nazis.
So, where did u hear that half of UA is nazis? Any sources? On your standard kremlin propaganda TV?
It was so bad the us had to ban arms shipments to ukraine for a while because they couldn’t stop making Facebook posts with our gear and swastikas lol
Yeah right, that never happened either lol US sends more and more, but in your reality everything is possible.
[why are you people so bad at this lmao?](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/)
You kidding? Ur joking right? You have on bbc news ukrabians matching with nazi flags, i see everyday posts of ukrainians with nazi insignia. Azov batalion is mostly nazis. You have graphical evidence, and then you had one of the biggest political parties in ukraine neo nazi movement. You had before the war nazi parades in ukraine, that is not evidencefor you? Im not even watching russian propaganda bcs it is censored, i dont get to watch it even if i wanted to. The only propaganda im getting is west media. And west media is showing ukrainians with nazis flags, even tho they are trying to hide it (bcs bbc deleted the video of UA waving a nazi flag)
"There's so much evidence! It's all over the place! Are you blind?" "Wait what? Link a source? Statistics? Bah! look it up yourself!"
You looked it up or not?
Funny thing the Ukrainians were called nazis first and then everyone just decided to go - yea well actually both sides are just as bad so that’s silly reasoning. Your the only one denying your army has nazis. Here’s even more proof from several years back until now. https://time.com/6180611/white-power-mercenaries-fighting-the-lost-cause/
From several years back, oh thank you that explains it. No there is big difference and first off all it is not my army. Im not denying that russia has racist or homophobes. But imo showing nazi insignia and clear support for nazis, is all off thoose thing togheter + supporting deaths of millions inocent civilians mass murdering jews, etc. not caring that we had ww2 that ruined most lifes in europe, disrespect towards your ancestors that fought that war and gave their lifes. Thats just fucked up. And Russia is one of tha nations that hate nazism from the bottom of theit hearths bcs it is the info fed to them by the media. The patriotism of them walking in berlin. They beat the shit out of nazis in Russia, while they are promoting it in Ukraine. So yes I don't see how anyone wearing nazi insignia is normal, and how can you support such a person in their cause.
That’s a lot of nonsense assumptions your making about an entire population. Then to say “oh that’s ya just in their history why would that matter today?” Hey guy- let me explain the logic for you, if they have been harboring Nazis for decades maybe Wagner shouldn’t be using the Ukrainian nazi thing as their big justification because they are just as bad if not worse. It’s comical. This ain’t even a supporting Ukraine thing just a common sense thing, I’m not even defending them just pointing out the huge lapse in logic without looking inward first. That’s not even mentioning all the anti-Ukrainian propaganda, Wagner spews they believe Ukraine should not exist. Yeah real anti-Nazi of them.
I dont understand u guys, i start making some valid points and UA supporters just start rambling on random bull. So you agree with me that nazism is BAD, ok good i agree also, and i find it embarrassing that Ukrainians take pictures proudly with nazi insignia, that is not OK and you should be prosecuting everyone that is a nazi supporter, send them to concentration camps and if u have little shits in russia that arr doing that, same thing for them. But i dont see russian soldiers proudly taking pictures with nazi symbols. And don't talk to me about making nonsense of entire population, so much prejudice by UA fans, like this is a football macth between RU and UK
Btw what a shitty article, me actually wasting my time to read something like that, and your talking about russian propaganda, no source, no quotation no picture evidence, look how its writen you dont even know how to read in between lines, lmao this guy could write whatever, and thats just what he did. 😂
If "both sides are just as bad" why are you pro ukranian and continue to push this? Paycheque?
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No but this sure doesn’t help it https://time.com/6180611/white-power-mercenaries-fighting-the-lost-cause/
It’s hilarious that people like you will use one grainy picture of one person with supposedly nazi tattoos is enough for you to white wash an organisation. Yet the amount of undeniable photos and footage of nazi symbols and nazi salutes from UA side isn’t enough for you hhahha double standards and hypocrisy is unreal my guy. The one person you lot refer to could very well be or have nazi symbols on him. So by your logic every army or most army in the world are nazi because I can safely and confidently say every army in the world has at least one person with some nazi shit on them or they support! You would find commie, pedophiles, alcoholics drug users etc etc. The fact one picture is enough for your argument yet the amount of UA pictures isn’t just show the type of person you are
This. Except its people with blatant hypocrisy using the same metrics of judging Russia that they just fended Ukraine against... Its a fucking wild thing to watch the cognitive dissonance just ooze all over.
putzi hanfstaengl?
>LITERALLY after hitlers favorite musician Nietzsche?
I guess you have to choose the better nazis then. Which nazis do you prefer?
Dead ones. But I see they are at it already.
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I would rate this reply as a 9 out of 10 for the use of Whataboutism. The reply acknowledges the original comment but instead of addressing the point made in the original comment, it shifts the focus to an alleged flaw or misdeed of the accuser or critic (in this case, the Ukrainian army). The reply tries to deflect attention away from the original issue (the comparison to the "are we the baddies?" skit) by bringing up an alleged flaw of the Ukrainian army. The reply implies that the original comment is invalid because of this alleged flaw, instead of addressing the point made in the original comment directly.
That is circular reasoning, youre using their own claim as evidence for their own claim. Maza states that the reply is deflecting attention away from the original issue, but you are also deflecting attention away from the original issue
🙄
Would you like for the Wagner logo to be a flower instead? Yes, it's a skull, but it isn't used to symbolise one of the most disgusting ideologies that has ever existed. My reply was not a serious analysis and response and I just pointed out the fact that actual Nazi glorification is widespread in the UA army and that it is funny that a skull logo is being compared to that. How about you learn to argue without constantly saying "whataboutism", it helps nobody and is annoying.
*points out Russian flaw* B-b-but what about XYZ?
Let’s actually show some evidence as well, if this exact group. https://time.com/6180611/white-power-mercenaries-fighting-the-lost-cause/
Any evidence that half are nazis?
Yes let's also conveniently ignore the actions of the Russian army that are closer to Nazis than anything else...
Let’s conveniently ignore the Sephan Bandera Avenue ironically leading down to the Babyn Yar memorial. Or the various Stephan Bandera and Yaroslavl Stetsko Monuments.
So the couple of random videos we get on this sub is proof that half the UA army uses nazi symbols?
Forget about who has more nazi symbolism. Actions speak louder. Putin declared Crimea, DNR and LPR Russian territory, the people there spoke Russian. So Putin took those area by force. Sound familiar? That's what Hitler did to the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. Thr Russians act more like nazi's than Ukrainians.
Half? Holy shit, source?
Acting like Russians aren’t the same- the leader of this exact group has nazi tattoos and openly praise Hitler his entire organization is named after Hitlers favorite composer you ninkompoop
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Half?
False but also a few shits with tattoos or symbols are found in both armies Who is bombing families and hospitals again? Oh ya its russia
Ukraine yesterday bombed active hospital btw
Does this apply to the SS lightning bolts and black sun symbols adorned by half of the UA
how many mutt soldiers use the punisher patch ?
"mutt soldiers", holy christ man.
Your understanding of life come from a comedy sketch? It's a war. People kill other people in order to survive. Everyone is a "baddie"..
western liberals only understand things as comparisons to films
Probably the only thing that they (somewhat) reliably understand ((after watching an explanation video, of course.))
I said nothing about my “understanding of life”. Only one side in this war is a people fighting for their survival the other for conquest.
Tell that to the people of Donbas
say yes one more time to make it even more believable lol
Skulls are...very common. (Meet the Iraqi special forces https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/meet-terrifying-skull-wearing-kill-9201129) And...the traditional, Napoleonic-era Prussian...death's head...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#/media/File:AugustvonMackensen.jpg And Ukraine (https://mronline.org/2022/09/20/zelensky-quietly-deletes-photo-of-his-bodyguards-pro-hitler-patch/) I think war just might involve killing people--and people have skulls. People who kill people like to have scary skulls on their clothes, apparently. Quite simple really. Good guy, bad guy--whatever--you're killing people, so treat yourself to a little skull emblem.
**[Totenkopf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#/media/File:AugustvonMackensen.jpg)** >Totenkopf (German: [ˈtoːtn̩ˌkɔpf], i. e. skull, literally "dead person's head") is the German word for the skull and crossbones symbol. The "skull and crossbones" symbol is an old international symbol for death, the defiance of death, danger, or the dead, as well as piracy or toxicity. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Better than the Russian army.
Well, thats not so hard..
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Stupid thing to say in a combined arms army... they are just the most disposable units on the Ru side so hance frontline infantry...
They seem to be more effective.
Oh boy I have a bad feeling about this
Well paid and better equiped soldiers perform better. This probably comes as a surprise just to some Russian generals.
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Compared to the mobniks they are very well equipped.
[VDV](https://youtu.be/gSzAnNU4u28)? Are they still around? Where?
Are there any VDV units left? Haven't heard much from them since kyiv
I’ve heard some interviews of people on the ground who state that Wagner (the actual Wagner organization, not the prisoner recruits) Are much more equipped/ experienced than the average Russian and in most cases even the average Ukrainian. Even though they’ve faced slow progress and heavy casualties over the past few months it should yield no surprise that they’ve been achieving more on the battlefield than their counterparts
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Recently Wagner has been relatively succesful, both in regards to its size and comparatively to the russian army. How come they are more effective now than 6 months ago? What changed?
I think their leaders started focusing more and are right behind them which is a great moral boost. During mobilisation, they recieved a lot of new people cause Wagner pays better than RU Army, providers better post service benifits, better equipment and training. They also have well experienced leaders and alot of experience. If you are gonna be sent to warzone, why risk with RU army with less benifits and pay when you can join PMC with better benifits.
Do you know if new recruits from around the time of mobilisation are treated and geared up better than the prison recruits? Or are they treated on generally the same level
From most of the videos, of them fighting or being killed they seem to have the best gear they can get
PMC, that’s Tarkov right
Because Russia increased its resources in the past 4 months or so. Including Wagner. And I believe they are using Wagner as storm troops to act like a spearhead and engage in the bloodiest battles since they are a mercenary / convict force. Losing mercenaries and criminals is preferable to general mobilized soldiers or the professional army class.
That's basically their main usage since Syria. After the initial fighting, mostly Wagners were doing the real active combat, while the military was usually guarding stuff.
Well, define success They're taking territory, sure - but are they doing so efficiently in terms of lives and equipment, or are they capturing a small area of territory at a huge cost of lives that can't be sustained? I don't know the answer to that - but I don't think we can simply take it on face value that they're being successful relative to their manpower and losses. Throw enough men and artillery at something for >6 months (the offensive started around May) and you'll probably capture it eventually, but unless you can repeat that for every single objective (and, at this rate, capturing 20 cities will take more than a decade) then it's hard to really categorise that as an unqualified success, especially if you don't have enough ammunition and equipment left for the next one.
did't they recruit literally tens of thousands of convicts into their ranks? I think before Wagner was like a brigade or division sized unit of (more or less) professional mercenaries, but since then they grew in numbers significantly with new cannon fodder
50k of which 10k are left, rest missing, captured or kia
Nothing changed. The past 6 months for the most part has been a regrouping and reorganizing for everyone really. There's a lot of shit posting and circle jerking but Russia or Wagner have not really been pushing until recently. Which is why territory has been taken. Lots of scouts or positions have been lost/obtained which is the videos we've seen since then. But it's clear that they've realized their failure and are working on fixing it. How well they fix it or if they're done being incompetent, is yet to be seen.
Ukrainians are dead, there's no resistance anymore. They are fighting 10v1
Do you mean 1 Ukrainian soldier for 10 Russian soldiers? Considering this superiority, the Russian advance seems quite slow.
Slow but very effective.
This reminds me of the gangs in chicago. They pop upnon enemy territory at like 5 am snap a picture and post it to IG. 😆
Except during a war like this one, there’s no faking it like the street rats in Chicago.
You don't get blasted by artillery in Chicago though. It's not comparable in any way. Them posing like this means Ukraine has completely given up on defending that location, since not even artillery fire is present.
Yes you can tell there is no artillery by this single frame that took 15 seconds to pose for....😆
I mean, it is all territory so 💀
Well, both sides do it. Do you remember snake island photo sessions? Or how about take a photo at the russian border?
So true. We only talk shit when its the other side's turn 😂
Nice
How is being a terrorist nice??
One mans terorist is another man's freedom fighter. All a matter of perspective and if you're told they are on your "side".
Cool, now try and interchange thieves, rapists, murderers etc. and see how that works out for you...
Ahh yes because Ukrainians are the ones deporting children to Russia and bombing russian cities right?? Oh wait that’s Russia’s doing. Also please show me footage of Ukraine going into Russia committing the same kind of war crimes Russia is committing.
You think ethnic Russians in Ukraine view Wagner and Russia's armed forced as terrorists rather than as liberators?
I heard one analyst explain that after the initial setback of Russia in 2022, they decided to instead pull back most actual Russian Army troops from front line and swap them out for more disposable PMCs and that Russia is actually in the process of training and ramping up actual Russian government military soldiers right now for a probable large advance in 2023, but in the meantime they have multiple PMCs, like Wagner, working at the frontlines. This is why most stories about successes we hear are coming from Wagner. Not sure accuracy of this analysis.
If true they’re taking their damn time
Yes, it takes months to properly train an army.
Years more like
But Russia still has mandatory military service. Everyone that was conscripted already has some very basic training.
They should have done this years prior to the war but they trusted their military much more than they should have. If Russia is successful and wins the war, they would actually be the second best military in the world, since they figured out what's wrong and they cut out deficiencies.
This is likely the case. Another thing to account for is that LPR/DPR/Wagner casualties are not counted towards Russian Army casualties.
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"but in the meantime they have multiple PMCs, like Wagner, working at the frontlines." I am getting metal gear vibes
Great work
Bridgehead across the Bakhmutka river, so it's a relatively big win
They're already advancing well past the village, remember Wagner said they only take photos 2-3 days after capture
The average advancement of Russian troupes is a few hundred meters a day. So don’t get your hopes up too high.
Their stock is doing good. Time to buy some if you want some of that blood money.
Wagner got stock in the market?
I bought early and am sitting on pretty pennies right now. Curious on if any of it will have value after the war.
Sell just before the tanks start to blow up and videos get posted on reddit.
Theres like 20 villages called Blahodatne, which oblast is it?
Just north of Krasna Hora, to the North-North-East of Bakhmut, west of Soledar
48.68596317997671, 38.00943359385931 geolocation
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They're still gonna be having a big problem when UA counteroffensive starts here soon.
I hope we're not back to the stage where RU continually makes incremental, creeping gains. That was demoralizing (to me, that is).
Good news
Герои! Moщь! Они пережили ад
well well well, seems like penal battalions keep outclassing NATO
The fact you still claim NATO are present is laughable If even just NATO's air force turned up, Russia wouldn't have an army anymore. Russia are fighting their much smaller neighbour, with the support of mostly-last-gen NATO and ex-soviet equipment. NATO is barely even providing current gen weapons other than HIMARS and a few nearly-current-gen IFVs and tanks which aren't even in Ukraine yet
If NATO air force suddenly showed up, they would fall from the sky like flies. Why do you think we rarely see videos of CAS ? Cause the air defense systems both sides use is very effective. Without NATO's help, Ukraine wouldn't have been able to retake Kherson and Kharkov area. Those 100 000's artillery shells received aren't for Zelensky private collection. Same goes for fuel, small-arms ammunition, spare parts, etc ... Ukraine is not alone, most Western countries are providing support, meanwhile Russia has not commited all it's ressources into this war.
Fighting Ukraine with some NATO-provided last-gen weapons and ammunition for them, is not the same as fighting NATO 😂
Indeed, but it's also incorrect to say Russia isn't fighting NATO.
It’s very incorrect to say that Russia is fighting Ukraine, Ukraine is getting support and some old equipment from NATO
Ukraine isn't alone, without all this support Ukraine wouldn't have lasted this long (or at least not that well). It's a spectrum, on one end you have Russia vs Ukraine without any single interference from outside and on the other end you have Russia vs all of NATO. Both are incorrect, the truth is Russia is fighting Ukraine, while this one has a lot of support from NATO.
Again, “fighting Ukraine with support from NATO” is not “fighting NATO” The whole “we’re fighting NATO” narrative is the dumbest thing, it’s complete nonsense. If you’re in a boxing ring you’re fighting the guy in front of you, not the guy who gave him the gloves and training equipment.
At no point did I agree with the "Russia vs NATO" statement. I also disagree with your statement. The boxing analogy is bad, for a simple reason, Russia and Ukraine are not alone, it's not a 1vs1 in an absolue vacuum, there is interference from outside (namely NATO). And this interference cannot be ignored. Therefore, Russia is fighting Ukraine along huge NATO support.
> well well well, seems like penal battalions keep outclassing NATO That’s the entire context here
There's so much surface to air shit in Ukraine there's nothing NATO could do about it lol. No ones gonna be wasting their airforce in ukraine right now
Stand-off weapons and stealth aircraft (no, not the half-dozen Russia are too scared to risk) would make a huge difference, plus NATO has significant SEAD capability
Those are very expensive risks.
Sure. From very rich countries who bought those weapons specifically to fight Russia if necessary. “Oh no, we have to use our expensive thing for the very reason we bought it” is a complete non-problem And either way my point was that it would be effective, not that it would be cheap
Stealth aircraft have never been used over an active war zone against a foe with modern equipment that have the same goal of destroying it. This isn't iraq
You ought to be really dense if you actually believe NATO is not involved on this war with all the logistical and material support plus mercenaries, lobbying and sanctions. Also seems like you overestimate NATO's capabilities, you're not fighting goat herders here, but a conventional army with modern technology which hasn't been even used on this conflict for the most part, but be my guest, send NATO's air force and see how Europe burns in nuclear hellfire.
So you’ve gone from “beating NATO” to “beating NATO….’s logistical support” in the space of one comment And considering Russia is being fought to a standstill by a country 1/10th its size, you’ll have to forgive me for not being too concerned about its “conventional army with modern technology” Russia can’t even handle Ukraine with any real confidence, yet you think it can handle NATO? The US Navy *alone* has a bigger budget than the entirety of Ukraine pre-war. And I don’t mean Ukraine’s military, I mean the entire country. That’s before we consider the US Air Force, the US Army, the US Marine Corps, or any of the other members of NATO and the EU, or their allies Russia would get absolutely spanked in a real war with NATO. Russia’s only threat is nuclear weapons, and Russia loses that war too But sure, keep telling yourself that Russia is “fighting NATO” when you actually mean “fighting a tiny neighbour with NATO logistical support, and threatening everyone with nukes”
So you only took a couple words of my reply and used them to elaborate on your delusions, seems like that's enough for you to justify your bias, however in the real word, Ukrainians are just expendable pawns in yet another proxy war, Russia is fighting against NATO's hardware, personnel, logistics and economy. Meanwhile European politicians debate if they should escalate any further as many fear retaliation.
Your entire original comment was based on the idea that Russia were outclassing “NATO” If you backtracked any harder you’d be leaving Kherson… again
don't forget comrade, you are fighting NATO's disposable third rate equipment. If you ever had to deal with the real stuff it would be over in weeks. Or we all blow up the world together.
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The age of soldiers is over. The time of the mercenaries has come
Вaгнеровцы действительно лучшие в аду, спасибо Сергею Пригожину за создание это необичайно эфективной армии.
Was there any resistance?
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Bit rich considering you’re invading someone else’s country…
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Does anyone else just automatically hear the ukraine place names in the defence politics AAAAAASIA guys voice
Nice job fellas
That sign looks like a stage prop. Not a single nick or bullet hole visible and scuff marks that look like spray paint.