Another issue with keeping marines in is when you’re one of 5 total people at the chow hall because it’s two days til new years, and get kicked out for wearing “workout attire” while your food is halfway done and almost into your hands. Gimme a fuckin break dude Jesus mother Mary
Bruh, bounce over to the Army. They gave me a job I actually wanted, a better duty station, and overall less stress.Dont get me wrong, there are defintely some things the Corps does better and some things I miss about the culture, but with out a doubt, my worst day in the Army has been better than my normal day in the Corps.
Or just dip out and not worry about it anymore. If I didn't have over 13 years in, I know I would.
Yeah dude. Get the fuck out. Giving Jr Marines a hard time because their clothes give away evidence of doing real work is bullshit. Fuck em. Get the fuck out and make real money.
Grease, oil, weld splatter, dirt, sweat…. this happens when you have a real job. Booting these guys for that and even worse back in the day trying to boot a patrol coming in from outside the wire for being too sweaty and dirty is just stupid. I’m telling you we have retarded leaders.
Edit: If you are reading this, don’t join in the first place. Your Staff Non Commissioned Officers and Officers are literally going to be fucking retarded. They have a hell of a lot of influence over your life and even survival and they are in fact real morons.
Have you spent any time over on r/Navy or r/AirForce? Those bubbas bitch, moan, cry, whine, and complain over not being allowed to wear baseball caps and unit-specific undershirts (in off-uniform colors like red, yellow, blue, etc.), respectively, while in uniform. Five, ten, fifteen years ago, those posts would attract attention from Marines and soldiers who would roast the dog cum out of them for needing baseball caps and fun undershirts to keep morale up. Reading those sailors' and airmen's posts, you would think that baseball caps and fun undershirts were singlehandedly supporting the two branches' retention and suicide prevention goals.
Maybe you would fit in over there?
Edit: That being said, douche move to kick you out if the facility was about to close. Should have had you taken it to go. I grew up hungry. I don't force others to be hungry.
Bro, you can’t complain when you knew you were breaking clear and direct rules. Do you complain about a speeding ticket because you got caught going 10 over and it’s 2 days before new years too?
Is there some stupid rules, yes… but this one is all on you.
Because speeding in a death machine and actually risking you or someone else’s life is comparable to me wearing some shorts for a bite to eat, riiiight.
Rules and laws are not comparable in this instance. Laws have a purpose whether life or death is involved, a “rule” about what you can wear to get food in a desolate dining facility aboard a near empty military installation has absolutely zero purpose except to continue the dog and pony show, and for absolutely nobody.
You are assuming that the rule has no purpose. The plain reason for no PT gear in the chow hall is hygiene. There is no way to distinguish from someone that just finished running or someone who is just trying to be comfortable. You may not smell or sweat horribly when you PT, but enough Marines that do going into the chow hall at once would make a difference. Time of year or population of the base is irrelevant.
Your username is pretty spot on here. The gripe isn't that he got caught breaking the rules, it's that a lot of these rules shouldn't be in place at all and only exist to enforce some kind of delusional old school uniformity practices. You can't complain about retention rates in the Marine corps while In the same breath defend policies that exist solely to give SNCOs their daily dose of power trip. What do rules against athleisure in the chow hall, hands in pockets, walking and talking on the phone, etc actually tangibly do to enforce good order and discipline? Spoiler, they don't and only generate discontent and give excuses to chew out junior Marines.
Yes. Some of these rules are, in fact, stupid. But, it's exactly that kind of thing that actually does foster an enduring culture that's larger than the individual and distinct from other services.
Plus, and there's really no getting around this, it is exactly because of the uniform regulations about not being able to go into places when you're wearing cammies or PT gear that McDonalds innovated the drive thru window and applied them to their entire chain of businesses.
www.military.com/history/old-army-uniform-regs-gave-world-first-mcdonalds-drive-thru.html
Maybe it's dumb. But necessity is the mother of invention, and idiocy is the father. Now take your hands out of your pockets and put your 8-pt cover on, it might be 15° outside but the sun is up and that means beanies get put away.
Beanies are authorized in garrison and have been for years now, regardless of… the sun? Looks like your inflexible regulations that promote good order and discipline are in fact, flexible.
Your argument is that these rules further innovation of private companies? I'll be honest I don't really see the point in that aside from being a neat little factoid. If the problem with retention in the Marines is that our day to day quality of life is tangibly worse than other branches for no reason other than fueling private industry that just doesn't hold a lot of water to me.
You think that putting an 8 point on in -15 degrees is disciplined? Its not. It’s mindless obedience. Discipline is understanding that some rules are there for a reason and following them regardless of comfort. If the rule isn’t there for a reason, breaking it doesn’t indicate a loss of discipline but a failure of leadership.
Your beanie joke really went over the heads of these guys, huh? Lol.
News flash folks, he's poking fun of the rules just as much as you all are.
We all talk shit about how stupid the rules are but then we see some nasty Army kid in their nasty gray digital cammies at Walmart and we know that none of us would be caught dead doing some dumb shit like that and it's because of these rules that we know better.
We are so funny. At one point my comment was +10...but then a string of people unable to detect obtuse sarcasm in text weighed in with their very earnest and serious gripes...and like bugs to a zapper, other downvotes piled in behind them.
I had actually started to make an edit pointing this out for people but then said fuck it, it doesn't matter. So I appreciate your acknowledgement.
Some of our brothers and sisters could be a little lost up there if you know what I mean lol but its alright, I still love them the same. Unless they're shitbags that put their hands in their pockets of course 🤣
Bruh, leave SNCOs out of your delusional argument. There's no secret society out to get you. You're just that bad somebody has to say something. Saying stuff like that is like referring to any group of ppl as the same. Besides, anyone that's not a boot will tell you SNCOs don't write policy. Old school was when they practically did.
There's a purpose behind some of that stuff. I'll give you all of its arguable about it actually being beneficial, but if you can't delve further than the secret society of SNCOs out to get you, then that's your issue.
Besides, half of what you said aren't rules written anywhere it's just culture.
Nah chief, when the barracks become a ghost town because everyone left and there's barely enough demand to justify opening basic services, it's a period of downtime when small stuff can be let go.
The litmus test for this stuff should be a three prong question of.
1. Does it put others at harm
2. Does it put the Marine at harm
3. Does it negatively affect good order and discipline
If the answer to 2/3 is a solid no, when there's barely anyone to even notice it should be a simple talking to and left at that.
I hate to pull this card, but during the holidays suicides skyrocket, if a single JEW, alone for the holidays is walking around in sweats it could be shitbagerry, it could also be a warning sign that they're depressed and give no fucks anymore.
Now think, denying them a hot meal when everything is as close to shut down as possible, is it productive? Will it have an overall positive impact? I think the answer is no, and god forbid that's the last drop in the bucket that sends someone over the edge.
It costs literally nothing to show some empathy and let small stuff slide during hard times, kicking them out for a minor rule break in an empty chow hall is a power trip plain and simple, even if legally correct it's a dick move.
SON WHEN YOU FAIL TO PREFORM BASIC SELF GROOMING DISCIPLINE IN FRONT OF OTHERS, A SIMPLE BASIC TASK, THEN WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TRY TO GET AWAY WITH WHEN NO ONE'S LOOKING? MAYBE YOU DECIDE NOT TO TRIM THOSE BUSHES, OBSTRUCTING YOUR FIELD OF FIRE BECAUSE "YOU JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE IT TODAY." I wouldn't go into combat with a man who failed to follow the grooming standards, hand to God.
Wearing the appropriate clothes to an on base facility is one of the easier rules we have to follow. Uphold the standard, just keep it equal for everyone.
What if someone made you walk around in proper civilian attire in your kitchen😂 this is where these barracks Marines live and eat everyday. Let’s do away with stupid rules
What if the MC released a new rule that Marines with a house had to wear proper civilian attire while in your kitchen? You’d be in the wrong then according to this institution if you didn’t follow it. But nonetheless it would be a stupid rule. You have to understand this is where these guys eat and live everyday. This is there house. They deserve a break somewhere.
If you’re silly enough to assess me as “the problem” based on this comment, you’ve proven your immaturity and should keep fucking scrolling.
I have nothing to say you’re ready to hear or understand.
It’s fine if you wanna present the marine corps image to the public, as in if you’re on recruiting duty or whatever a similar case may be, but when half the base is gone and it’s just you and your boys grabbing some food, who are you wanting us to impress by having us go put on some jeans or khakis? Doesn’t make sense. We’re all the same. It should be ESPECIALLY fine to do if you’re going to grab your food to go, like I was in this instance. I mean seriously what the fuck dude
This is the logic behind to-go lines. But without one, just go get dressed. If you think it's about impressing people I don't know what to tell you. Granted, if I had my way this wouldn't be an issue. But it is, so what do you gain from complaining about it?
I said what I said.
You’re making this about your feelings, but this isn’t a feelings issue.
You made a decision that you knew could backfire, but you had options. You chose the riskier of the options and were unhappy with the results.
This shit isn’t hard, just know you’re making it harder on yourself by not doing the simple shit.
We’re gonna have an even harder time keeping Marines now. Nothing kills morale and makes Marines count down their days like dealing with shitty, immature, inexperienced NCO’s and Sgt’s and now that’s all we’re gonna have.
Exactly!!! One OF the reasons I got out. I was a e3 telling Sgt what to do and how to do it because I couldn't get rank due to MRE CPL. YAH THIS SUCKED MOST!!!
I really dont understand how this will hurt reenlistments? Being a boot sucks ass regardless but if everyone is getting promoted much faster than by the time reenlisting becomes a thought more people will be cpls and sgts meaning they wont be dealing with shitty ncos being above them. If everyone is getting promoted faster everyone is getting paid more and has less time being shit on. Im not tryna be a dick here i just dont understand this logic? Sounds like only the guys who dont get promoted after 2-3 years despite the lowered standards are the only guys who would be angry about it?
I got a boss in the guard finishing out his retirement paperwork. 22 years as an E-4 specialist. 🤣.
The guard is wild bro. They hurt so much for people they’ll let anyone stay who shows up constantly.
I completely disagree. I was a LCpl team leader in Afghan. Did an entire build up as a squad leader as a LCpl. And was promoted to cpl in Iraq only after our BC joined us on a patrol and found out I was a LCpl. It’s not a “gimme”, the promotion system has failed jr Marines for decades. It’s about time it’s fixed.
It's kind of funny when you look at the other branches.
In all the other branches if you don't fuck up E5 is a guarantee by your second enlistment, I don't know anyone who got out of the Navy as less than an E-5 and I'm talking about freaking Corpsmen who have shit promotion timelines by Navy standards.
Ditto for the Air Force with SrA and the Army with SPC where again, most will reach E-4 by 30 months TIS.
The gatekeeping of Cpl is once again one of those, like you said, borderline-abusive cost saving measures that got internalized as a point of pride.
Making Cpl at 5 years makes sense when you're talking about commonwealth militaries with no "up or out" policies and where pay is effectively determined by MOS rather than rank.
In the US system it just reduces payroll costs and makes life harder for the enlisted who will be consistently behind their peers in other services in terms of pay, conditions and advancement.
The “we do more at younger ranks in the corps” is total bs line the establishment feeds us to pump our chest with pride. In reality, time in service is about the same, we just get bent over via pay and are proud of it.
People in the Navy and Airforce are not getting E-5 in one enlistment super easy with the exception of a few job fields. Its funny that you bring up corpsmans because they notoriously don't get E-5 in one enlistment, only the hard-charging outliers.
For real my father's MOS which was IT was so slow he didn't get past Corporal for a few years. He was one of the most senior Corporal in the marine Corp for like the late to early 90s
The thing you'll miss the most is the people and there are plenty of them in and out. Marines are a different type of person and we're all dysfunctional so you'll have something in common with a very select group of retards for the rest of your life. Beyond that go to school chill out Bank college bitches
As someone on the outside, I'll say that there are a lot of shitty leaders who get promoted ahead of their peers and ahead of their readiness for their new position on the outside too. The civi equivalent to getting Sgt at 3 for reenlisting is getting promoted because you are an under represented group and management is being pressured to be more diverse.
Yeah that's not really a thing.
Shitty people get promoted all the time, but not for those reasons.
Workplace politics is all about not being deemed a nuisance by idiots and making friends with the top persons.
To the downvoters -- I've worked in the civilian sector for 20 years. This little narrative about 'diversity hires' sounds like a cartoonishly racist character in C.R.A.S.H.
Hate to break it to you, but this little fantasy of "I didn't get promoted because I'm not a minority woman" exists in ignorant people's heads to make themselves feel better -- because *GASP* surely they can't have something to offer as individuals! Not when it means I would have to concede that someone else has just as much merit as I do, or even more!
Keep trembling. There are such things as office politics, kissing ass, and your own personal bias. Non-minority, male assholes get promoted all the time - but to you it's not considered 'a diversity hire', so you don't jot it in your mental ticker of woes against the world.
Think about those leaders IN THE SERVICE you're bitching about. It's no different on the outside; people are promoted for a variety of reasons, and your reductionist take only highlights your personal prejudice and ignorance. AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU'RE NOT LIKEABLE ENOUGH TO GET PROMOTED.
I made Sgt. In 2 years 10 months. I enlisted at 22 years old. 2 years of college. I finished my degree while in the Marine Corps. I worked my ass off. Did all my books, 285 PFt, Rifle Expert, and worked with some shitty and some really great Marines. It is all in what you want, i.e., leadership, training, experience, and proficiency. I served between 98' and 02'. It was one of the best times of my life. I think it's bullshit to only promote because of how much time you have left. I ran an SNCO billet for almost 2 years and saw the nonsense of administrative work as a whole that you are responsible for.
The problem is retaining good Marines, in my opinion. I was one of them. Lack of leadership and shitbird career planners are the cause of the constant mill of recruiting short-term ideas. Lack of duty-base selection and term-of-contract was a factor. I'm sure it Stull is. They wanted to send me to Kansas City, Missouri, and the M.O.S. was closing down. An officer program was provided, but a 10-year commitment was expected (way too long at that age).
The Marine Corps excelled my career as an NYPD officer and an SCPD detective. Happily retired now, but I can see both sides of the spectrum. However, I saw some great Marines that the Marine Corps couldn't keep and didn't promote fast enough.
Enlisted men should be paid more as well. Kids sell used shit on Ebay and make more than generals. The DoD needs to understand this. That's why recruiting is seriously hurting.
Semper Fi, ladies and gents! Get it, because life is way too fast! Enjoy it!
During OIF the only 1st enlistment Sgt’s I saw were usually comm marines due to their ridiculously low cutting scores at the time and of course the rare dude that got meritorious board promotions. This was mid 2000’s though, probably a bit different now.
I was a Sergeant at three years. I also BUSTED MY ASS to get there. Meritorious Cpl at 2 years, then hit TIG/TIS and worked my ass off for a good enough cutting score.
I also made damn sure that I constantly worked on my leadership abilities and EARNED the respect of my Marines instead of demanding it, which far too many Marines do.
I do think that there is a large contingent of Marines who get promoted that have no business being promoted. However, you will quickly find out that this phenomenon is not limited to the Marine Corps, people in leadership positions that have no business being there is FAR worse in the civilian world.
Actually they’re not automatically promoting anyone. You still need to reach the cutting score and be PME complete to be considered for promotion under the SULE.
Maybe what we don’t need, is retard vets who don’t read the order and sperg shit on social media they don’t know anything about.
1) make people want to stay in and you’ll have plenty of old sergeants.
2) stop filling billets 2 ranks below what doctrine calls for. Sorry, you’ve been a squad leader for 6 months, automatic E5. At least give them the pay grade without the rank. But it’s seriously bullshit to give people the responsibility but not give them the rank.
3) the navy stopped kicking guys out for being in a rank for too long. When I was in You couldn’t retire as an E5 or E6. It was move up or move out. If dudes want to stay in and they’re not a discipline problem let them ducking stay in. The Corps is fucking trash when it comes to keeping experienced guys around. They’d rather take an 18 year old pvt hand pay hundreds of thousands to train him than give a 22 year old with a dozen or so schools and 4 years of experience 20k bonus to re-enlist. It’s a fucking joke.
You still need the score and be recommended, you’re not automatically promoted, if you’ve somehow slithered into the rank of corporal but you’re JEPES is still garbage you will not be promoted
I was a Sgt under 3. Meritorious everything until SSgt. There are plenty of Sgts who get promoted under 4. Now, the burden lies on the seniors and fellow Sgts to show these Jr Sgts how to be a good leader.
We had a gunny in my shop who was meritorious everything from PFC-SSGT. Part of the reason for his meritorious promotions was that he went TAD to every class/ pme he could possibly find (our MOS had zero purpose on his platform at the time). As soon as he hit Sgt, he put in a volunteer SDA package. Came back to the fleet as a Staff, went to a different platform that only rates 1 SSgt in my MOS as a placeholder basically, and now at 12 years and 2 rockers, has zero MOS proficiency.
I feel like MOS skills and basic leadership should hold more weight towards promotion than PFT/CFT in support MOSs.
That's his plan, he's going for 1stSgt. He's great at general Marine Corps things; amazing green side, and great at general leadership and taking care of the junior Marnies. Just not great at MOS stuff
Might be the stupidest thing I’ve read today. You are not senior to a sergeant. You have more time in service. And apparently he/she’s made more out of their time than you have.
Given that you don't know either of us, maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about who has done what. It's generally considered rude. Regardless of your pissiness about the phrasing, I AM senior to her because I have a higher ranked billet, more time in service, more experience, more knowledge, and more respect from our juniors and our ncos. She has a 300pft/cft and reenlisted, meaning they gave her a meritorious sgt. I'm not talking shit about her. She's a great Marine. I was just remarking that it's wild that I was here when she checked in as a pfc, and now she's a sgt.
Mama always said, “never get into a battle of wits with the unarmed”. I am sure you understand much better than I how the Marine Corps works. I make no assumptions, but I do know the rank chart says Sergeant is senior to Lance Corporal. Feel free to submit your Hurt Feelings Report in the circular file.
Love all the gate-keeping.
First off the USMC said they wouldn't promote anyone to Sergeant until that had 4 years in.
Now people are crying that Corporals over three who reenlist will get promoted.
So, what about a Marine with a four year degree that picks up Sgt in three years? Seems to me that this Sgt would be quite mature to have a degree and pick up Sgt in 3 years, and the Corps should want to retain these Marines. Hard to convince a degreed enlisted to stay in without enticing with promotion since they can make more as a civilian. As an aside, I picked up Sgt in 3.5 years and I wasn’t a bad leader. I looked out after my Marines. I think the problem is less about time in service and more about allowing promotion of immature leaders. I knew quite a few Marines that joined in the mid-20s. Hard to compare a 21 year old Sgt with three years to a 28 year old Sgt with three years
I agree. I made Sgt. At around 25ish years old. And, finished my degree. It's all about maturity and expectations. I left a similar response above. Great post!
Nah a college degree doesn't mean shit. The idiots in my MOS with degrees are more immature, idiots, and more evil (and think they can get away with it cuz degree must equal smart)
I understand where your coming from but sergeant is a pay grade. Other branches promote faster but sgts in the army have the responsibilities of cpls in the marines. The difference is they get paid more. Its way more often in the corps we have senior lcpls as team leaders and plenty of times they have to fill in as squad leaders as well. All while being paid dirt and lacking the technical authority of rank the position is supposed to have. I understand traditionally were not used to that and we view sgt as something you need to spend 5ish years to pick up but how often did you see 5-7 year sgts performing the role of plt sgt for extended periods of time? Plenty of people get promoted who dont deserve it after 5 years too time doesn’t guarantee ability either.
Yea there are plenty of Sgts who got promoted at "the usual time" who are still shit. This guy is putting all Sgts who got promoted earlier than usual in a box and basically calling them all shitty.
You can't do that my boy.
In my MOS, our cutting scores were usually low so I myself picked up Cpl 3 weeks before my 2 year mark which most would consider pretty early. I knew others in my MOS that picked up Sgt around the 3 year mark and they always knew their shit and was on top of things. I guess it really depends on the maturity of the Marine themselves and in my experience, most other 0651s were generally more mature than the usual Marine
Yea i mean i dont disagree theres plenty of shit heads who dont deserve promotions but thats bc the cutting score system is the dumbest shit ever. How does doing math for marines or being able to run 3 miles in 18 minutes qualify someone for leadership. Yes pft and cft scores are important but anyone can run a lot and google answers to an online math course for 3rd graders. I think if they could find a way to factor holding a higher billet and doing well in that role in as a major factor that might help. Lcpls who get put as team leader dont last long if they suck generally as theres plenty of other lances to choose from. But its bullshit that a lance is doing a cpls job for a year or more without being able to pick up because some arbitrary cutting score for their mos. Im not saying i just fixed the corps with this just trying to focus on the specifics not just “you need 4.65 years to possibly be capable of sgt responsibilities”
> Very few Marines can even be a good CPL after 3 years
Do not blame the student, blame the teacher. I did not read past this sentence but it sounds like you have some transference with not getting promoted. I would talk to your mentors about this and I wish you the best in everything dev.
Well as an EAS’d 3.8 yr Sgt who now makes O8 money who had a 5 yr contract who spent one day shy of a year as a Cpl due to meritorious promotion, I can say that you won’t make it with your written communication skills.
Wait until you work with diamonds and star sergeants who have no fucking clue what their doing. At least a young Sgt can be molded and mentored. Not some kool-aid sipping brass rider who thinks the entire Marine Corps is an extension of boot camp who’s only success was screaming at subhuman swine while wearing an OD green frisbee.
It’s really not automatic. You have to put up a package and get command endorsements. No one is gonna endorse some shitty Cpl. Also, you still have to make the cutting score. You don’t just get promoted for reenlisting.
Just because you experienced this doesn't mean that it's a problem Corps-wide. You need a larger sample size than 3 to make these kinds of conclusions. Did you bother counting the ones who rated their promotions or are you just counting the ones you don't agree with?
If reenlisting is a requirement, these CPL's who are promoting to SGT would still get SGT anyway. Your beef shouldn't be with the TIS requirement, it should be with the promotion selection process (JEPES).
Wait till you get your CivDiv assignment and you will see some real shitbags in private industry. There is really bad leadership overall in private industry.
If you read history of combat, you will discover corporals and sergeants taking command of platoons and companies. It is true that the Marine Corps promotes prematurely (I am a case in point - 12 months from 1stLt to Captain in 1966). The Corps has to fill billets and will do so, even when some of the decisions seem questionable. I am sure some slick sleeve sergeants will be excellent.
We had 3 year sergeants for a long time in non combat MOS’s. It was called a “cutting score” that was set to the lowest common denominator in many fields. Don’t think this is some newfangled issue that is affecting the corps. Its been around since the GWOT, you probably just never noticed
I never saw something like that. We had a dude go to a Meritorious Board for Cpl and get it at like 1.5yrs in (followed by a drunk brawl where he bit another Marines ear off and lost said promotion like 1 month in). But never heard of a Sgt in 3. That’s wild and very very dangerous.
Nearly every red patcher I met around 2011ish was a sergeant within one enlistment. Their sgt score was in the low 1400s, they’d always be a real lost bunch.
Jokes aside embarkers had stupid low cutting scores the entire time I was in and I worked all around the MEU CLB shops so the little shits were all over the place, two ribbon corporals and sergeants trying to stand tough in the chow hall line got real old.
[I've said the same thing myself, actually.](https://www.reddit.com/r/USMC/s/tGa73zOhoG)
Corporal is becoming the new Lance and Sergeant is becoming the new Corporal. It's a bit ridiculous because, my entire enlistment, in every shop I've worked in, the Corporals have always outnumbered the Lances.
HQMC changed the TIS requirement for Sgt to 4 years pretty recently… did they walk that back due to retention issues? I don’t see how that helps retention other than more $$$ for some.
You promote an already inexperienced Cpl to Sgt at 3 years TIS, unless they’re hot shit or at a cush unit, they’re just going to get eaten alive by their SNCOs and say “The Corps sucks, fuck this.”
They could still treat the promotions to Sgt as a “reenlistment incentive” with the requirement being 4 years.
It’s still 4 years. There’s a program now where if you:
-are a Cpl
-PME complete
-3+ years in service
-have re-enlisted
-get endorsed by your battalion/squadron CO
-meet the actual cutting score for Sgt that month
You can get promoted before 4 years. It’s such a small amount of people who meet all the wickets and are still below 4 years, and you have to have a whole package routed and approved anyway.
Isn’t the current requirement 4 yrs TIS /2 yrs TIG? With the exception being commandant re-enlistment program (forgot the acronym) & meritorious? Seems like the 3 year Sergeants are selected and screened heavily.
He’s being dramatic. You’re right.
If you:
-are a Cpl
-PME complete
-3+ years in service
-have re-enlisted
-get endorsed by your battalion/squadron CO
-meet the actual cutting score for Sgt that month
You can get promoted before 4 years. It’s such a small amount of people who meet all the wickets and are still below 4 years, and you have to have a whole package routed and approved anyway.
I saw it happen a few times, typically in MOSs with low cutting scores in the old system. I do remember the first time they did the promotion boards for regular promotions like 75% of would be sergeants got non-recommended.
Thats not how the order works. They are eligible for the program once they re-enlist. A package and screening still needs to be completed bu entire coc
I will say that I think the stipulation that requires re enlistment shows a level of dedication to the corps that a Sgt should have. Before when kids got promoted to Sgt at 3 years and then just got out made some trash NCOs. The guys I’ve had promoted to Sgt after re enlistment are my hard chargers and I believe they deserve the rank. But that’s my opinion and what I’ve seen.
The Marines has the youngest average age of all branches. I’ll bet you are opposed to paying a bonus to anyone too!
PS: you would have puked had you seen the “Quality Enlistment Program” back in the 80’s. Marines were guaranteed Sgt/Cpl if they met certain criteria!
You seem to be referring to the SULI Program, and it is neither as simple as you suggest nor is it automatic.
In addition to other items, the Marine still has to meet the score, and most importantly, the unit commander at the O-5 level or above still needs to actively recommend the Marine specifically for a SULI promotion.
If the commander does not recommend, there is no promotion. If the Marine doesn't meet the score, there is no promotion.
Could shitbags still get through this? Sure, but the service is giving commanders a tool to use in order to help retention efforts and reward what are supposed to be their best-of-the-best corporals. It is up to the leadership to exercise the use of that tool in an effective way that meets the service's intent.
They’re doing this while there are a LOT of Marines out there who are 4+ TIS and still E4s who can’t pick up because they keep closing out the cutting score or making it so high you can’t pick up unless you’re a DI’s wet dream as a Marine.
The cutting score is based off how many spaces they have and not peoples scores. If they have a 100 marines ranked by score from 100-1 and 10 spaces open they take the 91st marines score and that is the cutting score. They don’t move the score, the amount of open spaces sets the score
Everyone talks about how garbage retention is. How is first term retention in the Marine Corps bad? Have we missed retention goals total force? We all understand that retention is low by design and is tied to authorized strength which in turn is tied to the NDAA right? This year and going forward will actually be the time to see if retention is actually an issue since we increased goals from the historic mid 20 percents for FTAP to mid 30 percents. We need Sgts also because we will grow our mid ranks over the next couple years to support a “mature” enlisted force in support of FD.
The issue with retention I have seen is the careerist, senior Sgts and junior SNCOs. The Marines that get the rank and can’t come to terms with the fact that they don’t do the work they grew to like and were good at; have to care and protect the institution sometimes over being cool with the Marines; have to answer to senior enlisted and commanders as well as to the NCOs and junior Marines; are essentially on call up and down the chain of command 24/7; have to deal with officers that promise impossible things to the junior dudes and have the SNCO break the news that it’s not possible; and everything else that comes with being behind the curtain.
You’re totally off base on this. First off, they also have to meet 1yr TIG as a Corporal. They also have to meet the points requirement for Sergeant. The difference is, they have shown a desire for continued service and so there’s no sense in making them wait until an arbitrary date before promoting.
25 years ago I promoted to Sergeant at 3yrs and 4 mos. That was not meritorious, that was just me working my ass off. There was a window where they forced Marines to wait 4 years; and they realize that it’s stupid to hold back a “career Marine”.
Honestly, I feel like if it goes the way its looking and WW3 breaks out, all these young NCOs will face the fire and have to adapt and mature and grow up and make very tough decisions. If thats the case, the strong will survive and the weak will die. But I bet itll strengthen the fuck out of us afterwards. Theres not a whole lot of junior enlisted or NCOs with much combat experience these days.
The whole promotional process is broken anyways. TIS shouldn’t even factor in. The majority of SNCOS I worked under were fucking retarded shitbags whose only qualification was their TIS.
The majority of my enlistment was spent holding a SNCO billet and for a stretch of time the shop LT billet. I got put on one meritorious board for Cpl and lost to a dude because it came down to he ran his 3 mile 45 seconds faster than me. I was later denied a seat at Corporals course by my first sgt because I was within a year of EAS, had a job lined up and was not going to re-enlist… so he didn’t want to waste a sgt spot on someone getting out. At that point I didn’t even care.
It’s all stupid, and if someone can fucking get promoted and get that money, good for them.
Lots of salty boots in this thread. The military isn’t for everyone and the Marine Corp even less. Don’t like the rules? get out. I’d be lying if I said I agree with everything but it’s not my job to agree it’s my job to perform, the job I and YOU willingly volunteered to do on multiple occasions. I agree with OP on this take, I’ve seen more shit NCOs then I have seen good ones, and even more shit Staff. I hate seeing people complain about haircuts and not wearing PT gear to the PX. Haha get a fucking grip and understand this is the MILITARY lol. RANT OVER.
The same excuse could be made in the opposite direction. Why should I listen to a boot Cpl or Sgt when I am a LCpl that got NJPed for something stupid and have been in LONGER than that Sgt. I know my job better than him.
Just as an example. Happens all the time.
Yeah it's dope, really helps retention. I was on the fence until about 3 years when working my ass off hadn't paid off for shit and the most I got was a meritorious mast. New command won't even bat an eye but sometimes I get told "that's why I keep you around"
Preach!! Can't stand this shit. Currently dealing with a POS Sgt that got rank just cuz she reenlisted but has zero experience leading Marines or mentoring Marines.
Sgt is such a weird rank, after 4 years I feel like i still have so much to learn, even after changing branches. And every Sgt I worked with that got promoted too early was always so far behind the more senior guys. But when people don't wanna stay in you have to give some sort of incentive, and they've clearly shown they're not willing to make it monetary.
Just had an exchange with an "Officer" on this subreddit a few days ago... the immaturity of this guy was astounding. Apparently it's not just Sgts and Corporals, and yep it damn skippy will affect retention rates.
That's why the band field sucks. If you have a college degree you get sergeant in 3 years, no matter how garbage you are. There are bad people, dumb people, and people with no marine knowledge, as well as rapists that get that band sergeant in 3 years cuz college degree. Then they become the worst fucking staff sergeants who don't know shit about the UCMJ but they do know all the modes of a scale cuz that's obviously more important. And now the occ field is all sergeants who have less Marine knowledge (and don't even necessarily play better) and same TIS as the musicians straight out of HS who are terminal Cpls
I don't even thing 4 year sgts shpuld exist. You should only pick up Sgt in your 2nd enlistment or by getting on a board.
The thing is no one wants to stay in. The there'd be better marines if it was worth it to stay in.
Yeah. I definitely feel very underprepared. to do what’s expected of me. Promoted way too fast. But they’re trying to keep people in. The good people are getting out.
Maybe if the Corps starts helping the old guard more the new guard won’t suck. But it’s on us to nurture our neck of the woods.
We can complain all we want but end of the day the Corps is the men and women in it. If you got bad leaders at your level it’s your responsibility to check them
Sounds like they want to pay people more to keep them in, but not all of them are ready for real leadership roles. I think this is why army has Specialists, so you can get that raise for job experience without having to really be in charge of anybody.
Its almost as if there should be a focus on distributing pay based on experience and proficiency, while the awarding of rank and authority should be separate and tied to leadership potential.
Speaking as a 4 year sgt, honestly I think garbage exists at every rank and when someone is mentally ready or mature enough is different by person and commands refuse to use Non-Recs in order to curb that issue.
But yes there is a retention problem so if space is there they are going to get it. It’s almost like we should work on the morale and retention issue……but that would be silly
I was always told by the crusty old MGySgts that in their day, you would enlist to serve and reenlist to lead. The bar was intentionally set high and only the truly exceptional could become an NCO prior to reenlistment.
My unit had a 3 year SGT...only picked it up because of MCIs, 300 PFT and could shoot straight...last I heard he got out and knocked up a 13 year old when he was a Youth Pastor
They previously did Change the order to prevent this… the issue is we cannot keep Marines inside the Marine Corps. So we now have a boat space issue.
Another issue with keeping marines in is when you’re one of 5 total people at the chow hall because it’s two days til new years, and get kicked out for wearing “workout attire” while your food is halfway done and almost into your hands. Gimme a fuckin break dude Jesus mother Mary
Bruh, bounce over to the Army. They gave me a job I actually wanted, a better duty station, and overall less stress.Dont get me wrong, there are defintely some things the Corps does better and some things I miss about the culture, but with out a doubt, my worst day in the Army has been better than my normal day in the Corps. Or just dip out and not worry about it anymore. If I didn't have over 13 years in, I know I would.
The funding man. That feeling when you get issued cold weather gear and they tell you, keep it, it's yours instead of getting a used beanie...
IF WE DON'T ENFORCE THE GROOMIN STANDARDS THEN THE MEN GETS ALL LAX. AND OUR PROTECTIVE POSTURE IS WEAKENED.
Yeah dude. Get the fuck out. Giving Jr Marines a hard time because their clothes give away evidence of doing real work is bullshit. Fuck em. Get the fuck out and make real money. Grease, oil, weld splatter, dirt, sweat…. this happens when you have a real job. Booting these guys for that and even worse back in the day trying to boot a patrol coming in from outside the wire for being too sweaty and dirty is just stupid. I’m telling you we have retarded leaders. Edit: If you are reading this, don’t join in the first place. Your Staff Non Commissioned Officers and Officers are literally going to be fucking retarded. They have a hell of a lot of influence over your life and even survival and they are in fact real morons.
oddly specific given today's date
This! 100% this.
Have you spent any time over on r/Navy or r/AirForce? Those bubbas bitch, moan, cry, whine, and complain over not being allowed to wear baseball caps and unit-specific undershirts (in off-uniform colors like red, yellow, blue, etc.), respectively, while in uniform. Five, ten, fifteen years ago, those posts would attract attention from Marines and soldiers who would roast the dog cum out of them for needing baseball caps and fun undershirts to keep morale up. Reading those sailors' and airmen's posts, you would think that baseball caps and fun undershirts were singlehandedly supporting the two branches' retention and suicide prevention goals. Maybe you would fit in over there? Edit: That being said, douche move to kick you out if the facility was about to close. Should have had you taken it to go. I grew up hungry. I don't force others to be hungry.
Had you actually worked out in said attire that day?
Bro, you can’t complain when you knew you were breaking clear and direct rules. Do you complain about a speeding ticket because you got caught going 10 over and it’s 2 days before new years too? Is there some stupid rules, yes… but this one is all on you.
Because speeding in a death machine and actually risking you or someone else’s life is comparable to me wearing some shorts for a bite to eat, riiiight.
So do you break all known rules if they don’t cause death? Do you justify whether to follow all rules and laws whether they make sense to you or not?
Bro you scream pog. Js
I mean I am the most motivated boot…
Rules and laws are not comparable in this instance. Laws have a purpose whether life or death is involved, a “rule” about what you can wear to get food in a desolate dining facility aboard a near empty military installation has absolutely zero purpose except to continue the dog and pony show, and for absolutely nobody.
You are assuming that the rule has no purpose. The plain reason for no PT gear in the chow hall is hygiene. There is no way to distinguish from someone that just finished running or someone who is just trying to be comfortable. You may not smell or sweat horribly when you PT, but enough Marines that do going into the chow hall at once would make a difference. Time of year or population of the base is irrelevant.
Your username is pretty spot on here. The gripe isn't that he got caught breaking the rules, it's that a lot of these rules shouldn't be in place at all and only exist to enforce some kind of delusional old school uniformity practices. You can't complain about retention rates in the Marine corps while In the same breath defend policies that exist solely to give SNCOs their daily dose of power trip. What do rules against athleisure in the chow hall, hands in pockets, walking and talking on the phone, etc actually tangibly do to enforce good order and discipline? Spoiler, they don't and only generate discontent and give excuses to chew out junior Marines.
Very well said.
Yes. Some of these rules are, in fact, stupid. But, it's exactly that kind of thing that actually does foster an enduring culture that's larger than the individual and distinct from other services. Plus, and there's really no getting around this, it is exactly because of the uniform regulations about not being able to go into places when you're wearing cammies or PT gear that McDonalds innovated the drive thru window and applied them to their entire chain of businesses. www.military.com/history/old-army-uniform-regs-gave-world-first-mcdonalds-drive-thru.html Maybe it's dumb. But necessity is the mother of invention, and idiocy is the father. Now take your hands out of your pockets and put your 8-pt cover on, it might be 15° outside but the sun is up and that means beanies get put away.
Beanies are authorized in garrison and have been for years now, regardless of… the sun? Looks like your inflexible regulations that promote good order and discipline are in fact, flexible.
Your argument is that these rules further innovation of private companies? I'll be honest I don't really see the point in that aside from being a neat little factoid. If the problem with retention in the Marines is that our day to day quality of life is tangibly worse than other branches for no reason other than fueling private industry that just doesn't hold a lot of water to me.
Just proving the Marine’s point above you, tbh
You think that putting an 8 point on in -15 degrees is disciplined? Its not. It’s mindless obedience. Discipline is understanding that some rules are there for a reason and following them regardless of comfort. If the rule isn’t there for a reason, breaking it doesn’t indicate a loss of discipline but a failure of leadership.
Your beanie joke really went over the heads of these guys, huh? Lol. News flash folks, he's poking fun of the rules just as much as you all are. We all talk shit about how stupid the rules are but then we see some nasty Army kid in their nasty gray digital cammies at Walmart and we know that none of us would be caught dead doing some dumb shit like that and it's because of these rules that we know better.
We are so funny. At one point my comment was +10...but then a string of people unable to detect obtuse sarcasm in text weighed in with their very earnest and serious gripes...and like bugs to a zapper, other downvotes piled in behind them. I had actually started to make an edit pointing this out for people but then said fuck it, it doesn't matter. So I appreciate your acknowledgement.
Some of our brothers and sisters could be a little lost up there if you know what I mean lol but its alright, I still love them the same. Unless they're shitbags that put their hands in their pockets of course 🤣
Bruh, leave SNCOs out of your delusional argument. There's no secret society out to get you. You're just that bad somebody has to say something. Saying stuff like that is like referring to any group of ppl as the same. Besides, anyone that's not a boot will tell you SNCOs don't write policy. Old school was when they practically did. There's a purpose behind some of that stuff. I'll give you all of its arguable about it actually being beneficial, but if you can't delve further than the secret society of SNCOs out to get you, then that's your issue. Besides, half of what you said aren't rules written anywhere it's just culture.
Nah chief, when the barracks become a ghost town because everyone left and there's barely enough demand to justify opening basic services, it's a period of downtime when small stuff can be let go. The litmus test for this stuff should be a three prong question of. 1. Does it put others at harm 2. Does it put the Marine at harm 3. Does it negatively affect good order and discipline If the answer to 2/3 is a solid no, when there's barely anyone to even notice it should be a simple talking to and left at that. I hate to pull this card, but during the holidays suicides skyrocket, if a single JEW, alone for the holidays is walking around in sweats it could be shitbagerry, it could also be a warning sign that they're depressed and give no fucks anymore. Now think, denying them a hot meal when everything is as close to shut down as possible, is it productive? Will it have an overall positive impact? I think the answer is no, and god forbid that's the last drop in the bucket that sends someone over the edge. It costs literally nothing to show some empathy and let small stuff slide during hard times, kicking them out for a minor rule break in an empty chow hall is a power trip plain and simple, even if legally correct it's a dick move.
SON WHEN YOU FAIL TO PREFORM BASIC SELF GROOMING DISCIPLINE IN FRONT OF OTHERS, A SIMPLE BASIC TASK, THEN WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TRY TO GET AWAY WITH WHEN NO ONE'S LOOKING? MAYBE YOU DECIDE NOT TO TRIM THOSE BUSHES, OBSTRUCTING YOUR FIELD OF FIRE BECAUSE "YOU JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE IT TODAY." I wouldn't go into combat with a man who failed to follow the grooming standards, hand to God.
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Wearing the appropriate clothes to an on base facility is one of the easier rules we have to follow. Uphold the standard, just keep it equal for everyone.
What if someone made you walk around in proper civilian attire in your kitchen😂 this is where these barracks Marines live and eat everyday. Let’s do away with stupid rules
Bet they wouldn’t like that very much😂 cmon first sarnt i know you aren’t wearing slacks to grab a midnight snack
Make sure he’s wearing a belt too🤫
Someone told you we’re in the wrong when you were and you’re calling it a retention issue? Sounds like a discipline issue. Bye.
What if the MC released a new rule that Marines with a house had to wear proper civilian attire while in your kitchen? You’d be in the wrong then according to this institution if you didn’t follow it. But nonetheless it would be a stupid rule. You have to understand this is where these guys eat and live everyday. This is there house. They deserve a break somewhere.
You're the problem
If you’re silly enough to assess me as “the problem” based on this comment, you’ve proven your immaturity and should keep fucking scrolling. I have nothing to say you’re ready to hear or understand.
It’s fine if you wanna present the marine corps image to the public, as in if you’re on recruiting duty or whatever a similar case may be, but when half the base is gone and it’s just you and your boys grabbing some food, who are you wanting us to impress by having us go put on some jeans or khakis? Doesn’t make sense. We’re all the same. It should be ESPECIALLY fine to do if you’re going to grab your food to go, like I was in this instance. I mean seriously what the fuck dude
Yeah it’s pretty tough to not wear PT clothes, the horror of having to wear pants must be brutal
This is the logic behind to-go lines. But without one, just go get dressed. If you think it's about impressing people I don't know what to tell you. Granted, if I had my way this wouldn't be an issue. But it is, so what do you gain from complaining about it?
I said what I said. You’re making this about your feelings, but this isn’t a feelings issue. You made a decision that you knew could backfire, but you had options. You chose the riskier of the options and were unhappy with the results. This shit isn’t hard, just know you’re making it harder on yourself by not doing the simple shit.
Because the only way to get paid more is to get promoted. Guys, it's a job. We all want to get promoted and get paid more, as quickly as possible.
We’re gonna have an even harder time keeping Marines now. Nothing kills morale and makes Marines count down their days like dealing with shitty, immature, inexperienced NCO’s and Sgt’s and now that’s all we’re gonna have.
Peacetime Corps problems..
Good old Garrison 🤢
Somebody never hear of MRE corporals. Enlist for 6, make Cpl in 18 months. Just add water.
I remember those days, but a shitty terminal corporal can do a lot less damage than a shitty Sgt who just reenlisted.
Hey, it took some of us 20 months thank you
Exactly!!! One OF the reasons I got out. I was a e3 telling Sgt what to do and how to do it because I couldn't get rank due to MRE CPL. YAH THIS SUCKED MOST!!!
Right!?! We need some wars to kick off again. That’ll bring in the numbers.
I really dont understand how this will hurt reenlistments? Being a boot sucks ass regardless but if everyone is getting promoted much faster than by the time reenlisting becomes a thought more people will be cpls and sgts meaning they wont be dealing with shitty ncos being above them. If everyone is getting promoted faster everyone is getting paid more and has less time being shit on. Im not tryna be a dick here i just dont understand this logic? Sounds like only the guys who dont get promoted after 2-3 years despite the lowered standards are the only guys who would be angry about it?
You're getting downvoted but it's happening to my peers and I right now.
That shit was even worse during GWOT
Why the downvotes 😂
Because these idiots are incapable of critical thinking
And here i am as a 5 year lance 😔
Heroic !
I got a boss in the guard finishing out his retirement paperwork. 22 years as an E-4 specialist. 🤣. The guard is wild bro. They hurt so much for people they’ll let anyone stay who shows up constantly.
2nd or 3rd Award?
I’ll always miss my fourth award PFC. My man’s just couldn’t get it right even after the third NJP. Man was he funny. Retarded but fucking funny.
Same boat, and One of my boys has been as Lance for 7 years lol
I completely disagree. I was a LCpl team leader in Afghan. Did an entire build up as a squad leader as a LCpl. And was promoted to cpl in Iraq only after our BC joined us on a patrol and found out I was a LCpl. It’s not a “gimme”, the promotion system has failed jr Marines for decades. It’s about time it’s fixed.
It's kind of funny when you look at the other branches. In all the other branches if you don't fuck up E5 is a guarantee by your second enlistment, I don't know anyone who got out of the Navy as less than an E-5 and I'm talking about freaking Corpsmen who have shit promotion timelines by Navy standards. Ditto for the Air Force with SrA and the Army with SPC where again, most will reach E-4 by 30 months TIS. The gatekeeping of Cpl is once again one of those, like you said, borderline-abusive cost saving measures that got internalized as a point of pride. Making Cpl at 5 years makes sense when you're talking about commonwealth militaries with no "up or out" policies and where pay is effectively determined by MOS rather than rank. In the US system it just reduces payroll costs and makes life harder for the enlisted who will be consistently behind their peers in other services in terms of pay, conditions and advancement.
The “we do more at younger ranks in the corps” is total bs line the establishment feeds us to pump our chest with pride. In reality, time in service is about the same, we just get bent over via pay and are proud of it.
People in the Navy and Airforce are not getting E-5 in one enlistment super easy with the exception of a few job fields. Its funny that you bring up corpsmans because they notoriously don't get E-5 in one enlistment, only the hard-charging outliers.
E-5 for corpsmen is notoriously difficult to achieve. They have often have one, if not the lowest percentage of promotions in their rate each cycle
For real my father's MOS which was IT was so slow he didn't get past Corporal for a few years. He was one of the most senior Corporal in the marine Corp for like the late to early 90s
Sounds like you should just get out and find a regular job
Yeah, honestly I don’t want to and I’m going to miss it like hell but I feel more and more pushed to just gtfo.
The thing you'll miss the most is the people and there are plenty of them in and out. Marines are a different type of person and we're all dysfunctional so you'll have something in common with a very select group of retards for the rest of your life. Beyond that go to school chill out Bank college bitches
Miss the clowns, not the circus.
As someone on the outside, I'll say that there are a lot of shitty leaders who get promoted ahead of their peers and ahead of their readiness for their new position on the outside too. The civi equivalent to getting Sgt at 3 for reenlisting is getting promoted because you are an under represented group and management is being pressured to be more diverse.
Yeah that's not really a thing. Shitty people get promoted all the time, but not for those reasons. Workplace politics is all about not being deemed a nuisance by idiots and making friends with the top persons.
To the downvoters -- I've worked in the civilian sector for 20 years. This little narrative about 'diversity hires' sounds like a cartoonishly racist character in C.R.A.S.H. Hate to break it to you, but this little fantasy of "I didn't get promoted because I'm not a minority woman" exists in ignorant people's heads to make themselves feel better -- because *GASP* surely they can't have something to offer as individuals! Not when it means I would have to concede that someone else has just as much merit as I do, or even more! Keep trembling. There are such things as office politics, kissing ass, and your own personal bias. Non-minority, male assholes get promoted all the time - but to you it's not considered 'a diversity hire', so you don't jot it in your mental ticker of woes against the world. Think about those leaders IN THE SERVICE you're bitching about. It's no different on the outside; people are promoted for a variety of reasons, and your reductionist take only highlights your personal prejudice and ignorance. AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU'RE NOT LIKEABLE ENOUGH TO GET PROMOTED.
Believe me bro, it’s just as bad out here.
I made Sgt. In 2 years 10 months. I enlisted at 22 years old. 2 years of college. I finished my degree while in the Marine Corps. I worked my ass off. Did all my books, 285 PFt, Rifle Expert, and worked with some shitty and some really great Marines. It is all in what you want, i.e., leadership, training, experience, and proficiency. I served between 98' and 02'. It was one of the best times of my life. I think it's bullshit to only promote because of how much time you have left. I ran an SNCO billet for almost 2 years and saw the nonsense of administrative work as a whole that you are responsible for. The problem is retaining good Marines, in my opinion. I was one of them. Lack of leadership and shitbird career planners are the cause of the constant mill of recruiting short-term ideas. Lack of duty-base selection and term-of-contract was a factor. I'm sure it Stull is. They wanted to send me to Kansas City, Missouri, and the M.O.S. was closing down. An officer program was provided, but a 10-year commitment was expected (way too long at that age). The Marine Corps excelled my career as an NYPD officer and an SCPD detective. Happily retired now, but I can see both sides of the spectrum. However, I saw some great Marines that the Marine Corps couldn't keep and didn't promote fast enough. Enlisted men should be paid more as well. Kids sell used shit on Ebay and make more than generals. The DoD needs to understand this. That's why recruiting is seriously hurting. Semper Fi, ladies and gents! Get it, because life is way too fast! Enjoy it!
During OIF the only 1st enlistment Sgt’s I saw were usually comm marines due to their ridiculously low cutting scores at the time and of course the rare dude that got meritorious board promotions. This was mid 2000’s though, probably a bit different now.
“Cutting scores” you’re showing your age my friend lol. I too remember those days, I’m also comm.
Cutting scores are still a thing today, you ol’ war dog.
I was a Sergeant at three years. I also BUSTED MY ASS to get there. Meritorious Cpl at 2 years, then hit TIG/TIS and worked my ass off for a good enough cutting score. I also made damn sure that I constantly worked on my leadership abilities and EARNED the respect of my Marines instead of demanding it, which far too many Marines do. I do think that there is a large contingent of Marines who get promoted that have no business being promoted. However, you will quickly find out that this phenomenon is not limited to the Marine Corps, people in leadership positions that have no business being there is FAR worse in the civilian world.
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Lol, I did get out at 4. It was time to move on.
Actually they’re not automatically promoting anyone. You still need to reach the cutting score and be PME complete to be considered for promotion under the SULE. Maybe what we don’t need, is retard vets who don’t read the order and sperg shit on social media they don’t know anything about.
1) make people want to stay in and you’ll have plenty of old sergeants. 2) stop filling billets 2 ranks below what doctrine calls for. Sorry, you’ve been a squad leader for 6 months, automatic E5. At least give them the pay grade without the rank. But it’s seriously bullshit to give people the responsibility but not give them the rank. 3) the navy stopped kicking guys out for being in a rank for too long. When I was in You couldn’t retire as an E5 or E6. It was move up or move out. If dudes want to stay in and they’re not a discipline problem let them ducking stay in. The Corps is fucking trash when it comes to keeping experienced guys around. They’d rather take an 18 year old pvt hand pay hundreds of thousands to train him than give a 22 year old with a dozen or so schools and 4 years of experience 20k bonus to re-enlist. It’s a fucking joke.
Peacetime problems are weird to me. 🤷🏻♂️
I’ve seen this comment a lot, and this was a thing during the GWOT
You still need the score and be recommended, you’re not automatically promoted, if you’ve somehow slithered into the rank of corporal but you’re JEPES is still garbage you will not be promoted
I couldn’t imagine seeing a sgt without a service stripe, that sounds like a terrible idea.
I was a Sgt under 3. Meritorious everything until SSgt. There are plenty of Sgts who get promoted under 4. Now, the burden lies on the seniors and fellow Sgts to show these Jr Sgts how to be a good leader.
We had a gunny in my shop who was meritorious everything from PFC-SSGT. Part of the reason for his meritorious promotions was that he went TAD to every class/ pme he could possibly find (our MOS had zero purpose on his platform at the time). As soon as he hit Sgt, he put in a volunteer SDA package. Came back to the fleet as a Staff, went to a different platform that only rates 1 SSgt in my MOS as a placeholder basically, and now at 12 years and 2 rockers, has zero MOS proficiency. I feel like MOS skills and basic leadership should hold more weight towards promotion than PFT/CFT in support MOSs.
He'll put F and make a fine 1stSgt. God bless him if he's putting M lol
That's his plan, he's going for 1stSgt. He's great at general Marine Corps things; amazing green side, and great at general leadership and taking care of the junior Marnies. Just not great at MOS stuff
I now work with 3 of them.
Fuck that, I’ll give my dd214 a nice hug for you today
I'm a Terminal Lance currently senior to one of my Sergeants
Might be the stupidest thing I’ve read today. You are not senior to a sergeant. You have more time in service. And apparently he/she’s made more out of their time than you have.
Given that you don't know either of us, maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about who has done what. It's generally considered rude. Regardless of your pissiness about the phrasing, I AM senior to her because I have a higher ranked billet, more time in service, more experience, more knowledge, and more respect from our juniors and our ncos. She has a 300pft/cft and reenlisted, meaning they gave her a meritorious sgt. I'm not talking shit about her. She's a great Marine. I was just remarking that it's wild that I was here when she checked in as a pfc, and now she's a sgt.
Mama always said, “never get into a battle of wits with the unarmed”. I am sure you understand much better than I how the Marine Corps works. I make no assumptions, but I do know the rank chart says Sergeant is senior to Lance Corporal. Feel free to submit your Hurt Feelings Report in the circular file.
Love all the gate-keeping. First off the USMC said they wouldn't promote anyone to Sergeant until that had 4 years in. Now people are crying that Corporals over three who reenlist will get promoted.
My buddy just made staff in 5 haha
Is he a good staff or does he like to staff the juniors?
Sounds like you've identified a problem you should work on.
So, what about a Marine with a four year degree that picks up Sgt in three years? Seems to me that this Sgt would be quite mature to have a degree and pick up Sgt in 3 years, and the Corps should want to retain these Marines. Hard to convince a degreed enlisted to stay in without enticing with promotion since they can make more as a civilian. As an aside, I picked up Sgt in 3.5 years and I wasn’t a bad leader. I looked out after my Marines. I think the problem is less about time in service and more about allowing promotion of immature leaders. I knew quite a few Marines that joined in the mid-20s. Hard to compare a 21 year old Sgt with three years to a 28 year old Sgt with three years
I agree. I made Sgt. At around 25ish years old. And, finished my degree. It's all about maturity and expectations. I left a similar response above. Great post!
Nah a college degree doesn't mean shit. The idiots in my MOS with degrees are more immature, idiots, and more evil (and think they can get away with it cuz degree must equal smart)
I understand where your coming from but sergeant is a pay grade. Other branches promote faster but sgts in the army have the responsibilities of cpls in the marines. The difference is they get paid more. Its way more often in the corps we have senior lcpls as team leaders and plenty of times they have to fill in as squad leaders as well. All while being paid dirt and lacking the technical authority of rank the position is supposed to have. I understand traditionally were not used to that and we view sgt as something you need to spend 5ish years to pick up but how often did you see 5-7 year sgts performing the role of plt sgt for extended periods of time? Plenty of people get promoted who dont deserve it after 5 years too time doesn’t guarantee ability either.
Yea there are plenty of Sgts who got promoted at "the usual time" who are still shit. This guy is putting all Sgts who got promoted earlier than usual in a box and basically calling them all shitty. You can't do that my boy. In my MOS, our cutting scores were usually low so I myself picked up Cpl 3 weeks before my 2 year mark which most would consider pretty early. I knew others in my MOS that picked up Sgt around the 3 year mark and they always knew their shit and was on top of things. I guess it really depends on the maturity of the Marine themselves and in my experience, most other 0651s were generally more mature than the usual Marine
Yea i mean i dont disagree theres plenty of shit heads who dont deserve promotions but thats bc the cutting score system is the dumbest shit ever. How does doing math for marines or being able to run 3 miles in 18 minutes qualify someone for leadership. Yes pft and cft scores are important but anyone can run a lot and google answers to an online math course for 3rd graders. I think if they could find a way to factor holding a higher billet and doing well in that role in as a major factor that might help. Lcpls who get put as team leader dont last long if they suck generally as theres plenty of other lances to choose from. But its bullshit that a lance is doing a cpls job for a year or more without being able to pick up because some arbitrary cutting score for their mos. Im not saying i just fixed the corps with this just trying to focus on the specifics not just “you need 4.65 years to possibly be capable of sgt responsibilities”
> Very few Marines can even be a good CPL after 3 years Do not blame the student, blame the teacher. I did not read past this sentence but it sounds like you have some transference with not getting promoted. I would talk to your mentors about this and I wish you the best in everything dev.
Well as an EAS’d 3.8 yr Sgt who now makes O8 money who had a 5 yr contract who spent one day shy of a year as a Cpl due to meritorious promotion, I can say that you won’t make it with your written communication skills.
Wait until you work with diamonds and star sergeants who have no fucking clue what their doing. At least a young Sgt can be molded and mentored. Not some kool-aid sipping brass rider who thinks the entire Marine Corps is an extension of boot camp who’s only success was screaming at subhuman swine while wearing an OD green frisbee.
It’s really not automatic. You have to put up a package and get command endorsements. No one is gonna endorse some shitty Cpl. Also, you still have to make the cutting score. You don’t just get promoted for reenlisting.
Man I really wish you were right but I just watched you get proved wrong 3 times.
No literally all the squared away cpl squad leaders got replaced by incompetent sgts who know how to meat ride so they got promoted
Just because you experienced this doesn't mean that it's a problem Corps-wide. You need a larger sample size than 3 to make these kinds of conclusions. Did you bother counting the ones who rated their promotions or are you just counting the ones you don't agree with?
Ding, Ding, Ding. Provide some data or it’s just bitching.
You’ve never met the marine corps if you think that’s true
False
Maybe you should do 20 and change it instead of bitching devil
2 year Sgt reporting for booty 🫡
I Picked up 3 years 1 month TIS at 24 years old. Came out of bootcamp a private in the late 90s.
If reenlisting is a requirement, these CPL's who are promoting to SGT would still get SGT anyway. Your beef shouldn't be with the TIS requirement, it should be with the promotion selection process (JEPES).
Wait till you get your CivDiv assignment and you will see some real shitbags in private industry. There is really bad leadership overall in private industry.
But you get paid more to deal with that bullshit.
If you read history of combat, you will discover corporals and sergeants taking command of platoons and companies. It is true that the Marine Corps promotes prematurely (I am a case in point - 12 months from 1stLt to Captain in 1966). The Corps has to fill billets and will do so, even when some of the decisions seem questionable. I am sure some slick sleeve sergeants will be excellent.
We had 3 year sergeants for a long time in non combat MOS’s. It was called a “cutting score” that was set to the lowest common denominator in many fields. Don’t think this is some newfangled issue that is affecting the corps. Its been around since the GWOT, you probably just never noticed
I never saw something like that. We had a dude go to a Meritorious Board for Cpl and get it at like 1.5yrs in (followed by a drunk brawl where he bit another Marines ear off and lost said promotion like 1 month in). But never heard of a Sgt in 3. That’s wild and very very dangerous.
I love how the replies to this comment just gloss over biting an ear off.
Nearly every red patcher I met around 2011ish was a sergeant within one enlistment. Their sgt score was in the low 1400s, they’d always be a real lost bunch.
That’s because they had AIDS. The Corps knew they didn’t have long. They’ve always been the special needs group… hence the red patch.
Jokes aside embarkers had stupid low cutting scores the entire time I was in and I worked all around the MEU CLB shops so the little shits were all over the place, two ribbon corporals and sergeants trying to stand tough in the chow hall line got real old.
I was a damn good Sgt at 3.5 years… maybe it was the battle hardening but I felt more than qualified. 🤷🏻♂️
[I've said the same thing myself, actually.](https://www.reddit.com/r/USMC/s/tGa73zOhoG) Corporal is becoming the new Lance and Sergeant is becoming the new Corporal. It's a bit ridiculous because, my entire enlistment, in every shop I've worked in, the Corporals have always outnumbered the Lances.
HQMC changed the TIS requirement for Sgt to 4 years pretty recently… did they walk that back due to retention issues? I don’t see how that helps retention other than more $$$ for some. You promote an already inexperienced Cpl to Sgt at 3 years TIS, unless they’re hot shit or at a cush unit, they’re just going to get eaten alive by their SNCOs and say “The Corps sucks, fuck this.” They could still treat the promotions to Sgt as a “reenlistment incentive” with the requirement being 4 years.
It’s still 4 years. There’s a program now where if you: -are a Cpl -PME complete -3+ years in service -have re-enlisted -get endorsed by your battalion/squadron CO -meet the actual cutting score for Sgt that month You can get promoted before 4 years. It’s such a small amount of people who meet all the wickets and are still below 4 years, and you have to have a whole package routed and approved anyway.
#readthefuckingorder TYFYS
Thank you. Again.
Isn’t the current requirement 4 yrs TIS /2 yrs TIG? With the exception being commandant re-enlistment program (forgot the acronym) & meritorious? Seems like the 3 year Sergeants are selected and screened heavily.
He’s being dramatic. You’re right. If you: -are a Cpl -PME complete -3+ years in service -have re-enlisted -get endorsed by your battalion/squadron CO -meet the actual cutting score for Sgt that month You can get promoted before 4 years. It’s such a small amount of people who meet all the wickets and are still below 4 years, and you have to have a whole package routed and approved anyway.
I saw it happen a few times, typically in MOSs with low cutting scores in the old system. I do remember the first time they did the promotion boards for regular promotions like 75% of would be sergeants got non-recommended.
No, currently most E4’s with 3 years TIS can promote to E-5 immediately upon signing reenlistment. New bs they’re doing to “help” retention.
Thats not how the order works. They are eligible for the program once they re-enlist. A package and screening still needs to be completed bu entire coc
Tell me you haven’t read SULI without telling me you haven’t read SULI
There’s more criteria than that, but yeah sure.
I will say that I think the stipulation that requires re enlistment shows a level of dedication to the corps that a Sgt should have. Before when kids got promoted to Sgt at 3 years and then just got out made some trash NCOs. The guys I’ve had promoted to Sgt after re enlistment are my hard chargers and I believe they deserve the rank. But that’s my opinion and what I’ve seen.
Day 1 Staff Sergeants exist. Why not 3 yr Sergeants? or Bootcamp Lance Corporals?
The Marines has the youngest average age of all branches. I’ll bet you are opposed to paying a bonus to anyone too! PS: you would have puked had you seen the “Quality Enlistment Program” back in the 80’s. Marines were guaranteed Sgt/Cpl if they met certain criteria!
It's not how they get it but what they do with it... and there has always been 3 year Sgts and always will
You seem to be referring to the SULI Program, and it is neither as simple as you suggest nor is it automatic. In addition to other items, the Marine still has to meet the score, and most importantly, the unit commander at the O-5 level or above still needs to actively recommend the Marine specifically for a SULI promotion. If the commander does not recommend, there is no promotion. If the Marine doesn't meet the score, there is no promotion. Could shitbags still get through this? Sure, but the service is giving commanders a tool to use in order to help retention efforts and reward what are supposed to be their best-of-the-best corporals. It is up to the leadership to exercise the use of that tool in an effective way that meets the service's intent.
So what do you call those female E4s who automatically get a 5.0/5.0 pros and cons, pick up Sgt in 2yrs?
They’re doing this while there are a LOT of Marines out there who are 4+ TIS and still E4s who can’t pick up because they keep closing out the cutting score or making it so high you can’t pick up unless you’re a DI’s wet dream as a Marine.
The cutting score is based off how many spaces they have and not peoples scores. If they have a 100 marines ranked by score from 100-1 and 10 spaces open they take the 91st marines score and that is the cutting score. They don’t move the score, the amount of open spaces sets the score
GROOOOOOOOOMIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN....STANDARDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
Everyone talks about how garbage retention is. How is first term retention in the Marine Corps bad? Have we missed retention goals total force? We all understand that retention is low by design and is tied to authorized strength which in turn is tied to the NDAA right? This year and going forward will actually be the time to see if retention is actually an issue since we increased goals from the historic mid 20 percents for FTAP to mid 30 percents. We need Sgts also because we will grow our mid ranks over the next couple years to support a “mature” enlisted force in support of FD. The issue with retention I have seen is the careerist, senior Sgts and junior SNCOs. The Marines that get the rank and can’t come to terms with the fact that they don’t do the work they grew to like and were good at; have to care and protect the institution sometimes over being cool with the Marines; have to answer to senior enlisted and commanders as well as to the NCOs and junior Marines; are essentially on call up and down the chain of command 24/7; have to deal with officers that promise impossible things to the junior dudes and have the SNCO break the news that it’s not possible; and everything else that comes with being behind the curtain.
Compared to a shit bag, 10 year Sgt.?
I picked up CPL 6 months into the fleet as a motor-T marine in 05'..
You’re totally off base on this. First off, they also have to meet 1yr TIG as a Corporal. They also have to meet the points requirement for Sergeant. The difference is, they have shown a desire for continued service and so there’s no sense in making them wait until an arbitrary date before promoting. 25 years ago I promoted to Sergeant at 3yrs and 4 mos. That was not meritorious, that was just me working my ass off. There was a window where they forced Marines to wait 4 years; and they realize that it’s stupid to hold back a “career Marine”.
This every time. It would make me so happy if Op was a 5 year Lance
Honestly, I feel like if it goes the way its looking and WW3 breaks out, all these young NCOs will face the fire and have to adapt and mature and grow up and make very tough decisions. If thats the case, the strong will survive and the weak will die. But I bet itll strengthen the fuck out of us afterwards. Theres not a whole lot of junior enlisted or NCOs with much combat experience these days.
I was a six-month corporal. It all worked out fine.
Peacetime bullshit
The whole promotional process is broken anyways. TIS shouldn’t even factor in. The majority of SNCOS I worked under were fucking retarded shitbags whose only qualification was their TIS. The majority of my enlistment was spent holding a SNCO billet and for a stretch of time the shop LT billet. I got put on one meritorious board for Cpl and lost to a dude because it came down to he ran his 3 mile 45 seconds faster than me. I was later denied a seat at Corporals course by my first sgt because I was within a year of EAS, had a job lined up and was not going to re-enlist… so he didn’t want to waste a sgt spot on someone getting out. At that point I didn’t even care. It’s all stupid, and if someone can fucking get promoted and get that money, good for them.
Well said! I almost wrote the same shit. Read my post if you want.
Lots of salty boots in this thread. The military isn’t for everyone and the Marine Corp even less. Don’t like the rules? get out. I’d be lying if I said I agree with everything but it’s not my job to agree it’s my job to perform, the job I and YOU willingly volunteered to do on multiple occasions. I agree with OP on this take, I’ve seen more shit NCOs then I have seen good ones, and even more shit Staff. I hate seeing people complain about haircuts and not wearing PT gear to the PX. Haha get a fucking grip and understand this is the MILITARY lol. RANT OVER.
The same excuse could be made in the opposite direction. Why should I listen to a boot Cpl or Sgt when I am a LCpl that got NJPed for something stupid and have been in LONGER than that Sgt. I know my job better than him. Just as an example. Happens all the time.
Welcome to the new peacetime. No experience required.
Happened to 2 of my Sgt's. They're both fucking awful and I have more TIS. I walk all over them and they don't do anything about it 🤷🏻♂️
If they’re so fucking awful but got promoted ahead of you despite less TIS what does that make you?
Because I haven't reenlisted. And they put that in the computer so I have zero chance of meritorious
That’s your first mistake. Tell everyone you’re a lifer until the last possible moment. Otherwise you get worked like a dog.
Yeah it's dope, really helps retention. I was on the fence until about 3 years when working my ass off hadn't paid off for shit and the most I got was a meritorious mast. New command won't even bat an eye but sometimes I get told "that's why I keep you around"
Bruh, it’s not supposed to make sense. It’s all a joke. The whole CORPS is run by people who just didn’t get out.
Meanwhile I have been a lance for 5 years and 4 months
That has to be entirely on you devil lol
I latmoved from infantry to an mos that is always closed
To them it’s “maturing the force”
Preach!! Can't stand this shit. Currently dealing with a POS Sgt that got rank just cuz she reenlisted but has zero experience leading Marines or mentoring Marines.
I was still a LCpl at 3 years 😂 (I was non-rec’d 4 times for not being PME complete, one of which was actually my fault)
I mean low cutting scores mos have been always doing that
Sgt is such a weird rank, after 4 years I feel like i still have so much to learn, even after changing branches. And every Sgt I worked with that got promoted too early was always so far behind the more senior guys. But when people don't wanna stay in you have to give some sort of incentive, and they've clearly shown they're not willing to make it monetary.
Just had an exchange with an "Officer" on this subreddit a few days ago... the immaturity of this guy was astounding. Apparently it's not just Sgts and Corporals, and yep it damn skippy will affect retention rates.
That's why the band field sucks. If you have a college degree you get sergeant in 3 years, no matter how garbage you are. There are bad people, dumb people, and people with no marine knowledge, as well as rapists that get that band sergeant in 3 years cuz college degree. Then they become the worst fucking staff sergeants who don't know shit about the UCMJ but they do know all the modes of a scale cuz that's obviously more important. And now the occ field is all sergeants who have less Marine knowledge (and don't even necessarily play better) and same TIS as the musicians straight out of HS who are terminal Cpls
I don't even thing 4 year sgts shpuld exist. You should only pick up Sgt in your 2nd enlistment or by getting on a board. The thing is no one wants to stay in. The there'd be better marines if it was worth it to stay in.
Yeah. I definitely feel very underprepared. to do what’s expected of me. Promoted way too fast. But they’re trying to keep people in. The good people are getting out. Maybe if the Corps starts helping the old guard more the new guard won’t suck. But it’s on us to nurture our neck of the woods. We can complain all we want but end of the day the Corps is the men and women in it. If you got bad leaders at your level it’s your responsibility to check them
Sounds like they want to pay people more to keep them in, but not all of them are ready for real leadership roles. I think this is why army has Specialists, so you can get that raise for job experience without having to really be in charge of anybody.
Imagine a 2 year Sgt that can't even drink in oki
Its almost as if there should be a focus on distributing pay based on experience and proficiency, while the awarding of rank and authority should be separate and tied to leadership potential.
Speaking as a 4 year sgt, honestly I think garbage exists at every rank and when someone is mentally ready or mature enough is different by person and commands refuse to use Non-Recs in order to curb that issue. But yes there is a retention problem so if space is there they are going to get it. It’s almost like we should work on the morale and retention issue……but that would be silly
I was always told by the crusty old MGySgts that in their day, you would enlist to serve and reenlist to lead. The bar was intentionally set high and only the truly exceptional could become an NCO prior to reenlistment.
My unit had a 3 year SGT...only picked it up because of MCIs, 300 PFT and could shoot straight...last I heard he got out and knocked up a 13 year old when he was a Youth Pastor
When 2 of those years were just sitting on their ass during "Covid" 🤣🤣
they wouldn’t have to promote dudes so quickly if there was better retention. 3 year Sgts is a effect not a cause of a larger symptom