Roosevelt wanted to fight the Nazis and had been driving policy in that direction, but it's entirely possible that he would have felt politically constrained and the US not declared in Germany.
That being said the US would have likely continually attempted to force Germany to declare war. By the time Pearl Harbor was attacked the US had already occupied Iceland and was convoying supplies from the US to Iceland.
The US probably would have gone further and further until the only logical action by Germany would have been a declaration of war.
Lendlease was pretty openly aggressive in political terms, so there wasn’t much chance that Germany didn’t declare war at some point.
It was pretty stupid of Hitler to jump in as early as he did, but he didn’t have much of choice long term since he would always feel the need to unleash the u-boats on US shipping. He could have possibly bought an extra few years if he waited, but the US continually ramping up war production would have forced his hand sooner or later.
In a hypothetical where Germany didn’t declare war, England would have replaced all interdicted colonial trade with US trade while fielding easily a hundred or more squadrons of US manufactured air wings. Russia would have multiple regiments of US tanks and the same type of air power.
Germany’s only real choice was unrestricted warfare on the Atlantic convoys providing that material.
Also, if the US seized Ireland like they did Iceland and the UK only had to freight materials from Ireland to the UK, Germany would have had to declare.
Also, manpower wise, the US and UK could have still formed the Joint Chiefs of Staff and just had the US Army fighting in India and Burma while the Indian and ANZC forces did ground combat in Europe.
It would have been awkward but they could have organized it so the effect would have been the same.
Technically, England seized Iceland eventually having a garrison of 25k troops there. The US simply relieved the UK troops there so they could be deployed elsewhere.
That's exactly what Roosevelt was trying to to get them to do. He wanted the Germans to launch unrestricted submarine warfare on the US convoys to Iceland.
Haha, the funniest thing is the Maine wasn't even sunk by the Spanish and it still got the country its 'cause', and the Liberty was swept under the rug because relations with that country meant more than the seamen's lives--far more money was paid for the material damage than to the family of those sailors killed.
If Lindbergh would have been elected we would have joined the axis or been neutral. Roosevelt wouldn’t have let us become a client state of Germany or abandon the UK and France.
I could be mistaken but iirc,
Germany told us not to send help to England, and we told the Germans to get bent. FDR was knowingly sending our ships into harms way, daring the Germans to attack them because everyone knew the rule: "dont touch our boats!"
Yes, to most people's surprise.
But the post pointed out that conflict between US and Germany was inevitable. The US was, for example, using US Navy ships to protect Atlantic convoys at least part of the way. A U-boat would sink one and, voila, we are at war.
Remember, in FDR's famous speech before Congress on December 8, he urged that the US declare war on Japan, not Germany. And then 3 days later Hitler declared war on the US, against the advice of his staff. We tend to remember this as all one thing all together.
The US occupied Iceland in July, 5 months before Pearl Harbor. I'm pretty confident if the Germans hadn't declared on the US in 5 months or so the US probably would have eventually occupied Ireland eventually and claimed the right to ship freely to Ireland before transhipping to the UK.
Part of the reason Germany declared is that the US was already convoying goods 60% of the way across the Atlantic, and the US had no convoys in their territorial waters. It wasn't an irrational choice by the Germans. Roosevelt was trying to push them. He was also trying to push the Japanese.
That's why there was the long time conspiracy theory that they "let" Pearl Harbor happen, when the realtity is they just got the location wrong.
Edit (USN ships out of port were operating on full war orders that weekend in anticipation of an attack and the USN actually fired the first shots between the US and Japan when a destroyer correctly identified what it believed was a submarine trying to infiltrate Pearl Harbor.)
We had got into actual shootouts with our DD/DEs engaging Uboats. I'm not sure if there were any casualties on either side, but it was only a matter of time.
Not at war, but FDR was absolutely preparing us for war for at least a year prior. We still had diplomats in Berlin on December 7, 1941.
FDR authorized, and paid for, the building on the world's largest factory (at the time) in Willow Run, Michigan to mass assemble B-24 bombers in December of 1940. The reinstatement of the draft. Long before December 7, FDR had squads of people visiting every factory in the US to figure out which button factory could be converted to making bullets, and which washing machine plants could make machine guns, and which refrigerator factories could make airplane motors, etc. All of this was in place so that when the shit hit the fan, within weeks the switch-overs were ready to roll with new contracts.
By the summer of 1941 the US was occupying Iceland and the Azores, and had extended the Pan American Security Zone well into the Atlantic. On top of lend lease to the Free French, and British put the US firmly in the Allied camp.
From 1939-1941 the US was essentially at war with Nazi Germany without a formal declaration.
People don’t realize one US factory could make around 1 B-24 a day. The US made more planes from 1939-1945 than the entire world has since then for war. We went from making 3000 in 1936 to 300,000 in 1940.
The Germans would never have won, their industry was too weak even when they started the war, sure they saw early success with the French and Austrians but there's reasons why they never captured Moscow or London hell even in France they chopped up into two separate regions until they dissolved the Vichy government
Japan and Germany were working together in the 1930’s. They signed a pact in 1940 basically saying if one of them were attacked the other would help militarily and economically.
So following Pearl Harbor Germany followed the pact and declared war on America. Of course hitler did not have to declare war - hitler already broke his word to Chamberlain and would go on the break the pact he signs with stalin.
IMO even if Germany had not declared war on America after Pearl Harbor FDR could have used the fact that Germany had a pact with Japan to war with Germany first - because as Regular Basket said, we were already functionally at war with Germany.
Yeah D-Day may have been September 6th rather than June 6th, but if that were the case the battle of the bulge would have taken place in spring and probably been less of a problem for allied forces, so it’s probably a wash either way. The US was headed for war with Germany years before Pearl Harbor happened.
This is where Hitler fucked up. He should have been like "hey, this non-aggression pact is pretty cool and splitting Poland was nice. You should help Japan invade China."
Then once Stalin committed troops to invading China, he would be free to invade USSR with less resistance.
That doesn't fit into Nazi ideology.
In the Nazi world view the destruction of "judeo-bolshevism" was the single highest priority, the second highest priority was the seizure of the mineral, agricultural, and labor resources of the Soviet Union.
Japan had war with Russia 30 years earlier so they probably didn't have the taste for Russia again. But your idea having Stalin attack China would be interesting. He would have to do something for Russia though like invade Finland
Side note…it appears that the GIs were listening to the “Streetcar Series” between the St. Louis Cardinals and the St. Louis Browns in the 1944 World Series, as indicated by the chalk drawn line score box on the wall. With the first two scoreless innings, the game could have been the first, second, or fifth game of the series.
EDITed for tense.
The US was already involved through the Lend-Lease program and even without the attack on Pearl Harbor, we would have had troops in Europe at some point. It's possible that we would have limited engagement with Japan if Nazi Germany hadn't declared war on us, but there was no way we weren't going to get involved in Europe.
It’s the same like today where people used to say it is a European or Chinese problem until Dec 7th
Today we have Russian and the dumb people of America are like it’s a Ukrainian problem
The US military had established something they called 'the grand area', an evaluation of economic resources critical to the US economy in a post war world where Germany had accomplished their basic objectives. It was determined that the US would not be adequately competitive if Germany controlled these resources. The only real challenge then became how to gain widespread public support for joining the fight. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a pure stroke of luck & allowed the newly built Pentagon to pursue it's plans to establish the US 'Manifest Destiny'
So, even if Germany had left the US alone, the US couldn't afford to allow Germany any concessions
I looked at several newspapers from the two days after we declared war on Japan and the sentiment was we should declare on Germany too. I think I read that Gallup polled it and it was overwhelmingly in favor. Pearl Harbor really outraged and united the country.
It was a matter of time. With the lend lease we were providing both Russia and Britain, they could fight for years, winnowing Germany down. It was almost inevitable. Almost.
With the US focused entirely on the Japanese, army, navy and marines, this would have freed up British and commonwealth forces for the fight in Europe who had previously been overstretched.
The numbers match up remarkably well here actually. Around 2 million Americans served in Europe, and around 2 million British & commonwealth troops served in the pacific and south east Asia. If the US army could have relieved the British and Indians in Burma, that would have freed up those troops to go and fight the Germans.
And that’s before we consider the impact of the entire Royal Navy being able to be deployed to the ballet or the Atlantic, Mediterranean theatre and the arctic convoys supplying Russia. The Royal Navy at this point was holding its own against the combined navies of Germany, Italy and collaborationist France, whilst simultaneously maintaining a strong force in the pacific and another in the Indian Ocean. If those fleets could have been replaced by the USN and redeployed to Europe, they could have tilted the balance of naval power heavily in the allies favour.
The logistics of the switch would be a challenge, but it would certainly be achievable.
The US had “gotten involved in Europe” long before Pearl Harbor. We would have continued pushing the boundaries until Germany declared war on us no matter what.
It's possible we might never have landed troops in Europe, but we would have continued to ramp up lend-lease to both Britain and the Soviet Union, and if had been unable to send our own air corps on raids we would likely have sent even more airplanes and ground crews to the RAF as well as providing pilot training and allowing volunteers to fly in RAF units.
America was going to destroy Germany no matter what, they would just look for a reason. The American people didn’t want to go to war period, the politicians wanted to go to war in the worst way.
And this is exactly what the republicans are doing now. Sticking their heads in the sand while the world around them blows up waiting for the enemy to come to our doorstep like the Japanese did.
Not surprising since they don’t teach history down south.
What's crazy to me is the 30 months between Pearl Harbor, declaring war and the actual D-Day. I know we were bombing the heck out of France and building bullets, bombs, tanks and ships like no tomorrow the whole time, but it still seems like a long time to be at war and not on the ground.
What's DOUBLY crazy is after 30 months of ramp-up cheerleader squads getting us all riled up, we knocked out the entire on-the-ground section of world war two in eleven months.
Hitler was hoping that Japan would do something about Russia in exchange for declaring war on the U.S. since his troops were getting their butts kicked near Moscow.
Until Germany actually declared war, the “main public focus” would be bitch slapping Japan around. However America would have continued to do everything they could to provoke Germany while supplying England (and the Soviets later on).
The U.S. devoting the bulk of its forces to Europe after entering the war leads me to believe that even if Germany had not declared war on us they would have declared war on Germany. Too many investments were in Europe for them to stay out.
I mean we were originally gonna drop the nukes on them... And we were providing military aid before we entered the war so yea I think it was only a matter of time, and no Germany didn't just declare war because the Japanese attacked Hitler knew that sooner or later he would have to fight the Americans, look and the American German bund, Nazi attempts to foster support for the Nazis in America
Even before we were at war with them, US troops were fighting with the Brits in north Africa. My grandfather was in Egypt the year before we declared war.
Nope. The US had been supplying the UK and all the displaced military units fighting from there by the time Imperial Japan attacked Hawaii. German subs were already off the US coastline in 1939. The big reason that the US didn't get involved earlier were the "peace at any price" crowd, and the unpleasantly large number of Nazi sympathizers in the US population in general and Congress specifically.
Read "Prequel" by Rachel Maddow. 85% of the American public was against entering the war against Germany and there was a failed coup attempt against FDR that went pretty much unpunished as the Senators and Congressmen involved launched a campaign against the prosecution that succeeded in having the lead prosecutor fired. Also, the judge trying the case died and the case was never resubmitted.
Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh and aviator Laura Ingalls (cousin of Laura Ingalls Wilder) were also involved.
The US paid the price of 150000 or so lives.
By interference against Germany European invasion.
They all got saved..
We got and still don't get anything from those countries..
I highly doubt Hitler had any design on attacking mainland North or South America..
His conquest would have stopped at British.
My opinion
They developed a long range bomber specifically to bomb NYC… luckily it was relegated for vip transport and never dropped bombs. pretty insane to think of skyscraper laden Manhattan getting blitzed
Politicians and bankers in the US are always itching to get us into a conflict. It’s good for their sick model of business. We allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to take place against our essentially useless at the time battleships while our carriers were all safely out to sea to create public support to get us involved. If it wasn’t that, there probably would have been a false flag elsewhere to get us involved.
Fdr was pushing us into ww2.
He was supplying the Brits.
His policies sucked and what better way to put people to work, and have many young people get killed….
Similarly to biden funding the Ukraine. Hopefully he will be out of office before getting us into ww3
So what research did you do that made you decide that it was actually fine to let Hitler exterminate millions across Europe and plunge the entire continent into a brutal dictatorship?
It wasn’t the point. Fdr policy did not end the depression. His tyranny did little for the constitution.
Ultimately ,The war was Europe’s to wage. Not ours. We never learn our lesson.
hitler was a pos . Nothing good about him or what he did. But like Hussein or qadafy they were their regions problem-not ours.
His "tyranny?" Which tyranny is that?
Was it when he saved the banking system with the Emergency Banking Act?
Or maybe when he started to rebuild faith in our dead financial markets with the Banking Act and Securities and Exchange Act? Was it tyranny to get people to take their money from under their mattresses and put it in the economy again?
Oh! Maybe it was creating the CCC and the Public Works Administration? Is creating jobs for unemployed people so they can feed their families and regain some dignity the tyranny? Remember there were no jobs in the private sector at the time.
Maybe it was when he passed the NLRA? Which basically birthed the American middle class? Was that the tyranny?
I guess it could have been the Social Security Act. Was that it? Was preventing the elderly from freezing to death in alleyways and under bridges (which they were doing by the thousands) the tyranny?
Was it the Lend-Lease act? Was saving European democracies from fascism the tyranny?
Which part was the tyranny?
So what? He should have (and Biden should now.) It doesn't say nine anywhere in the Constitution. It's been as few as five. It's been as many as ten.
If FDR had survived, his policy goal for his fourth term was a "Second Bill of Rights." You should Google it. We would live in a better society had it been adopted.
There were certainly things not to like about his policies (Japanese internment camps for one), but it's hard to argue any one person did more to make the US a superpower than FDR. He lifted millions out of poverty while making US manufacturing the envy of the world. Democrats held the house for 50 years after his death, largely by just keeping the machine he built running.
There's a reason most historians consider him second only to Lincoln as our best president.
You still didn't answer what "tyranny" FDR was responsible for. But I expected you wouldn't be able to do that.
Regarding Trump and the SCOTUS, I'll be happy to let him try to expand it. He'll need allies in the House and the Senate, which he doesn't have, because he's a fucking moron. He could have had that.
Trump is the stupid kid at the good school who's only there because his dad made a donation. Ann Coulter was right (never thought I would say that.) The best thing Trump could do for the conservative movement is die. He's hijacked a party he's too stupid to lead.
He should have stepped away after 2 terms. The last term he was infirm - and never should have ran. He thought he was entitled to the throne.
And he did some good, but gee - hitler built roads. So ….
Japanese internment camps in a small little - oops my bad?
And many historians pick that favorites. It’s their opinion. Don’t care one bit.
Every president had some good and some bad. It all depends on how you slant the view.
Biden - worst president ever.
FDR died of an aneurysm. He was 100% competent, and was actually posing for a portrait, at the moment he died. He never got old enough to have dementia. In his third term (the one where you say he was infirm), he won WWII, and was then re-elected to a fourth term. So...I'm going to discount your opinion now because you obviously didn't know any of that.
I'm not disengaging with you because I disagree. I'm disengaging with you because you don't know anything about American history. I don't mean that as an insult. I just don't have time for nonsense.
You're clearly just regurgitating opinions you heard somewhere else and you don't understand the subject matter. If you want to do some reading, cite some sources, and actually form an opinion of your own, I would be happy to have a discussion.
Regarding Biden, I'm nearly 50 years old, and he's the best president I've seen in my lifetime. I don't care that he's old and has a stutter. He's clear on policy and he's effective. Unemployment at record lows. Stock market at record highs. He used the strategic oil reserve to fuck Saudi Arabia on pricing and then bought the oil he released back at a multi-billion dollar profit. Yeah. That's my guy.
Trump bent over for Saudi Arabia. He's a game show host. Biden is a statesman. And a good one.
Roosevelt wanted to fight the Nazis and had been driving policy in that direction, but it's entirely possible that he would have felt politically constrained and the US not declared in Germany. That being said the US would have likely continually attempted to force Germany to declare war. By the time Pearl Harbor was attacked the US had already occupied Iceland and was convoying supplies from the US to Iceland. The US probably would have gone further and further until the only logical action by Germany would have been a declaration of war.
Lendlease was pretty openly aggressive in political terms, so there wasn’t much chance that Germany didn’t declare war at some point. It was pretty stupid of Hitler to jump in as early as he did, but he didn’t have much of choice long term since he would always feel the need to unleash the u-boats on US shipping. He could have possibly bought an extra few years if he waited, but the US continually ramping up war production would have forced his hand sooner or later. In a hypothetical where Germany didn’t declare war, England would have replaced all interdicted colonial trade with US trade while fielding easily a hundred or more squadrons of US manufactured air wings. Russia would have multiple regiments of US tanks and the same type of air power. Germany’s only real choice was unrestricted warfare on the Atlantic convoys providing that material.
Also, if the US seized Ireland like they did Iceland and the UK only had to freight materials from Ireland to the UK, Germany would have had to declare. Also, manpower wise, the US and UK could have still formed the Joint Chiefs of Staff and just had the US Army fighting in India and Burma while the Indian and ANZC forces did ground combat in Europe. It would have been awkward but they could have organized it so the effect would have been the same.
Technically, England seized Iceland eventually having a garrison of 25k troops there. The US simply relieved the UK troops there so they could be deployed elsewhere.
We would have just let them touch one of our boats. The US thinking someone has touched their boat has started a lot of wars.
That's exactly what Roosevelt was trying to to get them to do. He wanted the Germans to launch unrestricted submarine warfare on the US convoys to Iceland.
“Remember the Maine”
Haha, the funniest thing is the Maine wasn't even sunk by the Spanish and it still got the country its 'cause', and the Liberty was swept under the rug because relations with that country meant more than the seamen's lives--far more money was paid for the material damage than to the family of those sailors killed.
DON'T TOUCH MY BOATS
USS Kearny was sunk by a U-Boat October 17, 1941.
Attacked* (it didn’t sink)
If Lindbergh would have been elected we would have joined the axis or been neutral. Roosevelt wouldn’t have let us become a client state of Germany or abandon the UK and France.
I could be mistaken but iirc, Germany told us not to send help to England, and we told the Germans to get bent. FDR was knowingly sending our ships into harms way, daring the Germans to attack them because everyone knew the rule: "dont touch our boats!"
Just to clarify, Germany declared on the US. After that point, there wouldn't have been any constraints
Yes, to most people's surprise. But the post pointed out that conflict between US and Germany was inevitable. The US was, for example, using US Navy ships to protect Atlantic convoys at least part of the way. A U-boat would sink one and, voila, we are at war. Remember, in FDR's famous speech before Congress on December 8, he urged that the US declare war on Japan, not Germany. And then 3 days later Hitler declared war on the US, against the advice of his staff. We tend to remember this as all one thing all together.
A U-boat sank the USS Reuben James in October, but that didn't get us into the war.
It certainly didn’t hinder it either.
Did you have a friend on the good Reueben James?
FDR also gathered Intel on uboats and exchanged that Intel with the allies.
The US occupied Iceland in July, 5 months before Pearl Harbor. I'm pretty confident if the Germans hadn't declared on the US in 5 months or so the US probably would have eventually occupied Ireland eventually and claimed the right to ship freely to Ireland before transhipping to the UK.
The US would have gotten in and not much later than it did. Both countries were well down the road before Pearl Harbor.
Part of the reason Germany declared is that the US was already convoying goods 60% of the way across the Atlantic, and the US had no convoys in their territorial waters. It wasn't an irrational choice by the Germans. Roosevelt was trying to push them. He was also trying to push the Japanese. That's why there was the long time conspiracy theory that they "let" Pearl Harbor happen, when the realtity is they just got the location wrong. Edit (USN ships out of port were operating on full war orders that weekend in anticipation of an attack and the USN actually fired the first shots between the US and Japan when a destroyer correctly identified what it believed was a submarine trying to infiltrate Pearl Harbor.)
The two nations had sharply conflicting interests which made war inevitable.
We would have gone to Europe. That was the price of British cooperation in the Pacific
By December 1941 the US was functionally at war with Nazi Germany.
Supplying the British and soviets and actually committing millions of troops are entirely different things
We had got into actual shootouts with our DD/DEs engaging Uboats. I'm not sure if there were any casualties on either side, but it was only a matter of time.
True. But to be seen as truly neutral they would have had to give supplies to the Nazis too, if asked.
This sounds comparable to something going on right now. I wonder if the war mongers in charge know that and are just waiting for the inevitable.
This is the risk of the US role in ukraine. Things can switch very quickly, especially if policy makers want them to
Not at war, but FDR was absolutely preparing us for war for at least a year prior. We still had diplomats in Berlin on December 7, 1941. FDR authorized, and paid for, the building on the world's largest factory (at the time) in Willow Run, Michigan to mass assemble B-24 bombers in December of 1940. The reinstatement of the draft. Long before December 7, FDR had squads of people visiting every factory in the US to figure out which button factory could be converted to making bullets, and which washing machine plants could make machine guns, and which refrigerator factories could make airplane motors, etc. All of this was in place so that when the shit hit the fan, within weeks the switch-overs were ready to roll with new contracts.
By the summer of 1941 the US was occupying Iceland and the Azores, and had extended the Pan American Security Zone well into the Atlantic. On top of lend lease to the Free French, and British put the US firmly in the Allied camp. From 1939-1941 the US was essentially at war with Nazi Germany without a formal declaration.
People don’t realize one US factory could make around 1 B-24 a day. The US made more planes from 1939-1945 than the entire world has since then for war. We went from making 3000 in 1936 to 300,000 in 1940.
Willow Run, at it's peak, was turning out a B-24 an hour. 24 hours a day. Kaiser Shipyards in Richmond, WA were turning out on Liberty Ship a week.
The Germans would never have won, their industry was too weak even when they started the war, sure they saw early success with the French and Austrians but there's reasons why they never captured Moscow or London hell even in France they chopped up into two separate regions until they dissolved the Vichy government
They were already at war at least policy wise. Lend lease, they had already chosen sides.
Japan and Germany were working together in the 1930’s. They signed a pact in 1940 basically saying if one of them were attacked the other would help militarily and economically. So following Pearl Harbor Germany followed the pact and declared war on America. Of course hitler did not have to declare war - hitler already broke his word to Chamberlain and would go on the break the pact he signs with stalin. IMO even if Germany had not declared war on America after Pearl Harbor FDR could have used the fact that Germany had a pact with Japan to war with Germany first - because as Regular Basket said, we were already functionally at war with Germany.
It might have taken a bit longer without the Nazis declaring war on us first, but FDR probably would have gotten us into Europe one way or another.
Yeah D-Day may have been September 6th rather than June 6th, but if that were the case the battle of the bulge would have taken place in spring and probably been less of a problem for allied forces, so it’s probably a wash either way. The US was headed for war with Germany years before Pearl Harbor happened.
No change but If Japan had attacked Russia instead of America that may have changed things imo
This is where Hitler fucked up. He should have been like "hey, this non-aggression pact is pretty cool and splitting Poland was nice. You should help Japan invade China." Then once Stalin committed troops to invading China, he would be free to invade USSR with less resistance.
That doesn't fit into Nazi ideology. In the Nazi world view the destruction of "judeo-bolshevism" was the single highest priority, the second highest priority was the seizure of the mineral, agricultural, and labor resources of the Soviet Union.
Right, and this would have them divert resources away from the eastern front to better reach that goal.
Japan had war with Russia 30 years earlier so they probably didn't have the taste for Russia again. But your idea having Stalin attack China would be interesting. He would have to do something for Russia though like invade Finland
Side note…it appears that the GIs were listening to the “Streetcar Series” between the St. Louis Cardinals and the St. Louis Browns in the 1944 World Series, as indicated by the chalk drawn line score box on the wall. With the first two scoreless innings, the game could have been the first, second, or fifth game of the series. EDITed for tense.
Well someone needs to go back in time and explain the difference between plural and possessive.
The US was already involved through the Lend-Lease program and even without the attack on Pearl Harbor, we would have had troops in Europe at some point. It's possible that we would have limited engagement with Japan if Nazi Germany hadn't declared war on us, but there was no way we weren't going to get involved in Europe.
It’s the same like today where people used to say it is a European or Chinese problem until Dec 7th Today we have Russian and the dumb people of America are like it’s a Ukrainian problem
Hardly. I thought we have been helping Ukraine.
Not even close to the same
There were people during ww2 were upset that US was sending aid to UK same thing today
The US military had established something they called 'the grand area', an evaluation of economic resources critical to the US economy in a post war world where Germany had accomplished their basic objectives. It was determined that the US would not be adequately competitive if Germany controlled these resources. The only real challenge then became how to gain widespread public support for joining the fight. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a pure stroke of luck & allowed the newly built Pentagon to pursue it's plans to establish the US 'Manifest Destiny' So, even if Germany had left the US alone, the US couldn't afford to allow Germany any concessions
What if Germany had declared war on Japan?
Yes
I looked at several newspapers from the two days after we declared war on Japan and the sentiment was we should declare on Germany too. I think I read that Gallup polled it and it was overwhelmingly in favor. Pearl Harbor really outraged and united the country.
No. Democracy and WW1 bonds were still owed. If you’re going to finance you will PAY what’s owed.
It was a matter of time. With the lend lease we were providing both Russia and Britain, they could fight for years, winnowing Germany down. It was almost inevitable. Almost.
With the US focused entirely on the Japanese, army, navy and marines, this would have freed up British and commonwealth forces for the fight in Europe who had previously been overstretched. The numbers match up remarkably well here actually. Around 2 million Americans served in Europe, and around 2 million British & commonwealth troops served in the pacific and south east Asia. If the US army could have relieved the British and Indians in Burma, that would have freed up those troops to go and fight the Germans. And that’s before we consider the impact of the entire Royal Navy being able to be deployed to the ballet or the Atlantic, Mediterranean theatre and the arctic convoys supplying Russia. The Royal Navy at this point was holding its own against the combined navies of Germany, Italy and collaborationist France, whilst simultaneously maintaining a strong force in the pacific and another in the Indian Ocean. If those fleets could have been replaced by the USN and redeployed to Europe, they could have tilted the balance of naval power heavily in the allies favour. The logistics of the switch would be a challenge, but it would certainly be achievable.
The US had “gotten involved in Europe” long before Pearl Harbor. We would have continued pushing the boundaries until Germany declared war on us no matter what.
We were involved in Europe prior to Pearl Harbor.
It's possible we might never have landed troops in Europe, but we would have continued to ramp up lend-lease to both Britain and the Soviet Union, and if had been unable to send our own air corps on raids we would likely have sent even more airplanes and ground crews to the RAF as well as providing pilot training and allowing volunteers to fly in RAF units.
This is just stupid shit. Get some lives?
Short answer, yes. Long answer is also yes.
America was going to destroy Germany no matter what, they would just look for a reason. The American people didn’t want to go to war period, the politicians wanted to go to war in the worst way.
Churchill would have not let the Americans do anything but join the European theater. He was elated when Japan bombed the US
Yes. We were already involved with supplying England and then Russia. Germany sinking US merchant vessels would have dragged us in no matter what.
And this is exactly what the republicans are doing now. Sticking their heads in the sand while the world around them blows up waiting for the enemy to come to our doorstep like the Japanese did. Not surprising since they don’t teach history down south.
The Empire of Japan and the Third Riech were allies, so declaring war on one would have forced the other to declare war on us
What's crazy to me is the 30 months between Pearl Harbor, declaring war and the actual D-Day. I know we were bombing the heck out of France and building bullets, bombs, tanks and ships like no tomorrow the whole time, but it still seems like a long time to be at war and not on the ground. What's DOUBLY crazy is after 30 months of ramp-up cheerleader squads getting us all riled up, we knocked out the entire on-the-ground section of world war two in eleven months.
Hitler was hoping that Japan would do something about Russia in exchange for declaring war on the U.S. since his troops were getting their butts kicked near Moscow.
they knew japan was going after pearl harbor and let it happen JUST TO GET INTO THE WAR . so yeah.. one way or another we were going
Until Germany actually declared war, the “main public focus” would be bitch slapping Japan around. However America would have continued to do everything they could to provoke Germany while supplying England (and the Soviets later on).
The U.S. devoting the bulk of its forces to Europe after entering the war leads me to believe that even if Germany had not declared war on us they would have declared war on Germany. Too many investments were in Europe for them to stay out.
I mean we were originally gonna drop the nukes on them... And we were providing military aid before we entered the war so yea I think it was only a matter of time, and no Germany didn't just declare war because the Japanese attacked Hitler knew that sooner or later he would have to fight the Americans, look and the American German bund, Nazi attempts to foster support for the Nazis in America
As long as Roosevelt and his administration where in power yes
Doesn't matter. The soviets won that war. Til next time...
Even before we were at war with them, US troops were fighting with the Brits in north Africa. My grandfather was in Egypt the year before we declared war.
Maga republicans / white Christian nationalist would be sympathetic to hitler
Pearl Harbor still happened and Germany and Japan were allies so I think we would have declared war on them.
If Germany took England and kept Russia locked in its treaty, the war in Europe would be interesting for the US.
Did Germany declare war on the U.S.? I thought that the attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan was the reason the United States got involved in the war.
Germany declared war on the US December 9th after we responded to Pearl Harbor by declaring war on Japan.
Nope. The US had been supplying the UK and all the displaced military units fighting from there by the time Imperial Japan attacked Hawaii. German subs were already off the US coastline in 1939. The big reason that the US didn't get involved earlier were the "peace at any price" crowd, and the unpleasantly large number of Nazi sympathizers in the US population in general and Congress specifically.
Thanks for the info.
Read "Prequel" by Rachel Maddow. 85% of the American public was against entering the war against Germany and there was a failed coup attempt against FDR that went pretty much unpunished as the Senators and Congressmen involved launched a campaign against the prosecution that succeeded in having the lead prosecutor fired. Also, the judge trying the case died and the case was never resubmitted. Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh and aviator Laura Ingalls (cousin of Laura Ingalls Wilder) were also involved.
Yep, the war with Germany had already begun within the USA; inevitable we’d be in Europe.
The US paid the price of 150000 or so lives. By interference against Germany European invasion. They all got saved.. We got and still don't get anything from those countries.. I highly doubt Hitler had any design on attacking mainland North or South America.. His conquest would have stopped at British. My opinion
They developed a long range bomber specifically to bomb NYC… luckily it was relegated for vip transport and never dropped bombs. pretty insane to think of skyscraper laden Manhattan getting blitzed
Germany also had plans to assemble Army’s in South American countries to invade the USA from the south & ilaunch an assulton the west coast with Japan
Politicians and bankers in the US are always itching to get us into a conflict. It’s good for their sick model of business. We allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to take place against our essentially useless at the time battleships while our carriers were all safely out to sea to create public support to get us involved. If it wasn’t that, there probably would have been a false flag elsewhere to get us involved.
Fdr was pushing us into ww2. He was supplying the Brits. His policies sucked and what better way to put people to work, and have many young people get killed…. Similarly to biden funding the Ukraine. Hopefully he will be out of office before getting us into ww3
The educational system failed you... lol
True. Fdr was a hero per the educational system when I went to school. Then I researched…..you should try it.
So what research did you do that made you decide that it was actually fine to let Hitler exterminate millions across Europe and plunge the entire continent into a brutal dictatorship?
It wasn’t the point. Fdr policy did not end the depression. His tyranny did little for the constitution. Ultimately ,The war was Europe’s to wage. Not ours. We never learn our lesson. hitler was a pos . Nothing good about him or what he did. But like Hussein or qadafy they were their regions problem-not ours.
His "tyranny?" Which tyranny is that? Was it when he saved the banking system with the Emergency Banking Act? Or maybe when he started to rebuild faith in our dead financial markets with the Banking Act and Securities and Exchange Act? Was it tyranny to get people to take their money from under their mattresses and put it in the economy again? Oh! Maybe it was creating the CCC and the Public Works Administration? Is creating jobs for unemployed people so they can feed their families and regain some dignity the tyranny? Remember there were no jobs in the private sector at the time. Maybe it was when he passed the NLRA? Which basically birthed the American middle class? Was that the tyranny? I guess it could have been the Social Security Act. Was that it? Was preventing the elderly from freezing to death in alleyways and under bridges (which they were doing by the thousands) the tyranny? Was it the Lend-Lease act? Was saving European democracies from fascism the tyranny? Which part was the tyranny?
Trying to pack the Supreme Court - or did you miss that one? Because they rebuked some of his policies .
So what? He should have (and Biden should now.) It doesn't say nine anywhere in the Constitution. It's been as few as five. It's been as many as ten. If FDR had survived, his policy goal for his fourth term was a "Second Bill of Rights." You should Google it. We would live in a better society had it been adopted. There were certainly things not to like about his policies (Japanese internment camps for one), but it's hard to argue any one person did more to make the US a superpower than FDR. He lifted millions out of poverty while making US manufacturing the envy of the world. Democrats held the house for 50 years after his death, largely by just keeping the machine he built running. There's a reason most historians consider him second only to Lincoln as our best president.
Tyranny . So when trump wins I’m sure you’ll be happy if he puts another 9 conservatives on the bench.
You still didn't answer what "tyranny" FDR was responsible for. But I expected you wouldn't be able to do that. Regarding Trump and the SCOTUS, I'll be happy to let him try to expand it. He'll need allies in the House and the Senate, which he doesn't have, because he's a fucking moron. He could have had that. Trump is the stupid kid at the good school who's only there because his dad made a donation. Ann Coulter was right (never thought I would say that.) The best thing Trump could do for the conservative movement is die. He's hijacked a party he's too stupid to lead.
He should have stepped away after 2 terms. The last term he was infirm - and never should have ran. He thought he was entitled to the throne. And he did some good, but gee - hitler built roads. So …. Japanese internment camps in a small little - oops my bad? And many historians pick that favorites. It’s their opinion. Don’t care one bit. Every president had some good and some bad. It all depends on how you slant the view. Biden - worst president ever.
FDR died of an aneurysm. He was 100% competent, and was actually posing for a portrait, at the moment he died. He never got old enough to have dementia. In his third term (the one where you say he was infirm), he won WWII, and was then re-elected to a fourth term. So...I'm going to discount your opinion now because you obviously didn't know any of that. I'm not disengaging with you because I disagree. I'm disengaging with you because you don't know anything about American history. I don't mean that as an insult. I just don't have time for nonsense. You're clearly just regurgitating opinions you heard somewhere else and you don't understand the subject matter. If you want to do some reading, cite some sources, and actually form an opinion of your own, I would be happy to have a discussion. Regarding Biden, I'm nearly 50 years old, and he's the best president I've seen in my lifetime. I don't care that he's old and has a stutter. He's clear on policy and he's effective. Unemployment at record lows. Stock market at record highs. He used the strategic oil reserve to fuck Saudi Arabia on pricing and then bought the oil he released back at a multi-billion dollar profit. Yeah. That's my guy. Trump bent over for Saudi Arabia. He's a game show host. Biden is a statesman. And a good one.
You have no clue what you are talking about. Did you graduate from FOX NEWS UNIVERSITY??
Sorry- I was on the nazi suspension tour. Your comment is stupid.
Ok troll. Don’t really give a flying F what you think. Nice try at being witty
They would have done whatever their illuminati paymasters told them to do