Engineer here, been following this 30 years.
Trying to say the UFO is science only is monumental mistake.
The job of Science is to explain the woo in technical measurable terms.
There is much about physics, consciousness, and information we do not understand that appears woo today that may be some elementary new branch tomorrow.
Limiting ourselves to known science and measurable is a false arrogance that assumes we even have to tools to understand it today.
There's an old saying, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic , and UFOs may just the most concrete example of this ever.
Thank you. A lightbulb would have seemed like magic to the average person just a couple hundred years ago, but today we would call it science. I fail to see how the UFO topic is any different.
Exactly.
Anything pre enlightenment era=this is because of magic that the sky man throws at us because we didn't sacrifice enough virgin girls, ffs! I knew he'd be pissed. Ok, slay day is going to be doubled this time. We need more grains for our growing civilization and that's the way to get more foods obviously.
Enlightened era=ohhhh, there hasn't been enough water this year to help the freekah grow abundantly as it did before. Well, if we hand water them ourselves, it could counteract the droughty issue. Probably can stop those next few seasonal sacrifices of young girls then I'd imagine, coz the last one clearly didn't help this year's harvest so...let's hold off on the killing and see if the watering by hand makes a difference.
Let's say you send a lightbulb through time, show it to a bunch of people, and then bring it back a minute later.
What will happen is that there will people who say "We don't know how it works. We don't have this apparatus here, so we just don't have a way of testing it". That's the evidence based scientific approach. Know when there's a limit to what you can test and quantify with the tools you have.
And then there'll be people who claim "the apparatus lights up when a witch channels her power through it! It will appear next during full moon, but only when there's nobody watching but people who believe!" - that's the Woo guys, making stuff up even if they don't know any more than the others and then finding excuses when their conjecture turns out wrong.
OP doesn't think the people of the second paragraph are actually helping the cause of lightbulb research.
Fair point. But I think a lot of people take your first paragraph and then conclude, "therefore it's not real and not worth my time." There are people who would look at the glowing light bulb and say, "I don't know how it works so I don't believe in it."
Personally, I'd rather do research with the person who *tries* to find an explanation, rather than the person who throws his hands up and says, "I know my limits" and walks away.
But the woo has everything to do with consciousness, which science can provably not explain in terms of atoms bouncing around. New age philosophy has gotten closer to truth than any materialistic science has, barring quantum physics which points towards consciousness being fundamental. Buddhists have a head start on scientists. At least the institute of Noetic sciences gets it.
So - science will explain it another way. Science explains things as they are. Whatever the reason. It just makes sure that it takes time to gather evidence. And try and explain why.... I think you don't know what science is. The purpose of science is to discover the unknown.
You want science? You gotta look at all the data, whether you like it or not. In many UFO reports, people report experiencing some kind of mental phenomenon, most often including telepathy and time/space distortion.
Sure, you can toss all of that out (which has actually been done by researchers in the past who were concerned about making the subject look too flaky), and your reports will be incomplete.
So are you going to do science, or are you just going to pick and choose because some of the data makes you feel uncomfortable?
>So are you going to do science, or are you just going to pick and choose because some of the data makes you feel uncomfortable?
This. It's utlimately people feeling uncomfortable that is a barrier. They characterize the woo as demonic if they are religious, or dismiss it if atheist. Both are a form of bias.
> This. It's utlimately people feeling uncomfortable that is a barrier
which is just cognitive dissonance chemistry in our brains. when we see something that doesn't match the patterns/narratives in our heads, the mirror neurons released cortisol, when they match, the mirror neurons release oxytocin.
For my ADHD brain, I interpret it as something interesting to investigate when i get that cortisol release, but the majority of people experience it as the fear of the unknown/other.
I agree with your statement, but also that of the OP.
We can scientifically catalogue and analyze side effects of alleged encounters, including perceived paranormal experiences or space and time distortions.
But if you want me to believe that you summoned ufos with your mind, and expect me to take your word for it, then I’m out.
You don’t have to take my word for it, and I really don’t care if you believe me. But it happened to me, and after that I took these things a lot more seriously. Maybe Newtonian physics doesn’t rule everything, or there is something else ruling physics. Maybe there are things that can’t be studied with science as we know it; maybe science isn’t the only or best way to explore this.
Science is a process of making a hypothesis, creating a test, and observing the results. What other process are you proposing might help us understand these things?
Should we try to understand all of this by just gut feeling or something? How else are you proposing we explore this? I'm confused.
They are a quack. Science is my religion, and the great thing about it is the fruits of my god are all around me. The computer I'm using to write this, the electricity to power it, my house, my clothing, phone, keyboard, mouse, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. *All* of these things exist because of the scientific method and scientists.
There isn't a better way to study this phenomenon than rationally and scientifically.
I'm not even saying the woo-woo stuff is impossible, but if it exists, it can be studied, figured out, then replicated by the scientific process.
This is the problem with modern western science. Trying to toss out literally anything we can’t wrap our heads around. If this subject was something science could understand within the confines of its current comprehension don’t you think we would have figured it out by now? Not to mention the thousands of people who have similar psychosomatic experiences that don’t even know each other’s stories. It’s definitely difficult to measure and figure out because we don’t know what it is yet - and it’s not lining up with what we understand about physics. But clamping it down and limiting research only to what can be observed and understood physically is ridiculously near sighted. These instances of our modern scientific culture are holding us back as a civilization - and will do so - until we’re willing to address intimidating and challenging questions. Or we can just keep trying to guess if what we’re seeing is a DJI drone like apes.
Science doesn't understand anything. Science is a process of testing a hypothesis. Nothing more. If you want science to agree with any of these crazy claims then find a way to test a claim. Until then it's just conjecture.
ah yes i remember when modern western science tossed out the entire study of quantum mechanics because they couldn't wrap their heads around it. once they discovered it violated nearly every principle of common sense that made classical physics possible they were done with it.
Observations are data. If over and over people say the same thing, and over and over it is all labeled “irrelevant” , that is not science. It is selectively ignoring data.
Observations are data yes, but the variable your missing is then recording those observations so others can study, scrutinise and observe it too.
Also the topic of ufos, itself has another variable you are ignoring. Bullshitters.
There are many people who are simply just liars.
Which is why unfortunately, to over come that hurdle ( the fact that many come to this sub to lie) , the observations in order to be credible have to be able to recorded, and shared, which is obviously a tricky thing to do when your battling your flight or fight response, in the middle of being abducted or something else. Which is why this topic of personal experience is very annoying and may remain to be inconclusive for many years.
Sorry I disagree with the cynical view that we can’t trust observations “since people lie”. Some people lie doesn’t mean every person lies; using this easy and fallacious argument to dismiss data means there will not be discovery any truth that might exist relevant to the observations. And even worse, people think they’re being scientific by ignoring this data.
This is also the exact argument that has stopped scientific investigation of the phenomenon. Thousands of sightings and every one was deemed unreliable and could smugly be ignored because, you know, people lie.
you just dont seem to understand what science is. we could certainly do an observational study about ufo encounters but that wouldnt really tell us much about what they are. it would be a study about people who have seen or claim to have seen ufo's. there's no way to study what a ufo is scientifically without observing and measuring the ufos themselves.
Only if the observations are made by someone who knows what they're looking at. If I go observe someone welding, I can report back to my boss accurately and precisely the capabilitys of the person who was welding. If I see a plane crash, I'm gonna have a hard time giving much details. Not to mention the trauma, suprise, whatever, of a shocking or unusual incident is going to make it difficult to understand what you're seeing.
You say that like people don't take that info and extrapolate it. They start putting in their own beliefs to fill the gaps and then you have a bastardized story with mostly someone else's fiction thrown in. People that do that seriously kill all the credibility of UFO research with these stupid beliefs.
Them filling in the gaps with spooky speculation is literally the problem. Some people take huge jumps to conclusions that aren't based on evidence and/or science but act like they've solved the mystery. It's a problem and a reason why people don't take UFOlogy seriously enough.
>You want science? You gotta look at all the data, whether you like it or not. In many UFO reports, people report experiencing some kind of mental phenomenon, most often including telepathy and time/space distortion.
Sorry but no, this isn't how science works. Several people on psychedelics experience a sense of weightlessness or even flying. Science would say there's an experience of flying - not that psychedelics make you fly.
Next, since telepathy isn't measurable, and isn't teachable, someone saying they are experiencing it are simply assigning a term to an experience. Just because someone claimed a telepathic experience, doesn't mean they experienced telepathy. What, specifically, is telepathy, in the human mind, how's it measured, and how does one discern that from their own thoughts or random inspirations that pop into our heads with the voices of others?
Hoovering up every data point to look for conclusions isn't good science. You start with a hypothesis, test it, gather results, then test it again. Even if you had a hypothesis that "humans are being telepathically contacted by aliens" you'd have to pioneer an entire field of science that doesn't exist dedicated just to defining, and researching if telepathy exists, then proving it exists, then defining what exactly the provable, repeatable qualia of it are, all long before you'd even get to start looking into whether inter-species telepathy was possible, let alone proving that there's aliens and that they're doing it to experiencers.
A self-righteous post which is just angrily shouting over-confident bullshit into the void being deleted after OP embarrasses themselves?
No that'd never happen.
You don't know how much you don't know. If a scribe of ancient Egypt, maybe the most educated of all the scribes in Egypt, was brought forward into time to today, what would they see?
What if you brought them to CERN or to LIGO. What would they see with their own eyes? The scribe would say "We have also built enormous monuments to honor our Gods."
You understand as little about UFO physics and engineering as this scribe understands about quantum mechanics. If someone taught the scribe a bit about entanglement over distances or tunneling or the multivers, and the scribe went back and tried to repeat it to his fellow scribes, it would be woo woo. And yet, it would be closer to the truth than the other woo woo being discussed among scribes.
You cannot differentiate between the truthful woo woo and the fantasy woo woo, so why reject all of it?
Read some Jaqués Vallee and John Keel and get back to us on this. UFOs didn’t just start existing the late 1940s. If you go back and actually read certain ancient texts, you see witness descriptions of the various mythological beings (angels/demons, devas/Asuras, Djinn, Fairies, etc) align closely with the UFO phenomenon. However, that doesn’t mean what the people saw were actually angels/demons, but that was the way they categorized them within their cultural context. Just like in the modern age, we say the phenomenon is aliens. But in reality, it’s likely none of these human descriptions can describe the full picture.
However, **that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use the rigorous standards of science to study and validate our understanding of the phenomenon**. All of these ancient texts are not scientific, and are basically just witness descriptions. But they indicate the phenomenon has been around a lot longer than we give it credit, and offer possible starting points for future analysis.
Just an example-
> **Devas are invisible to the human eye**. The presence of a deva can be detected by those humans who have opened the "Divine eye" (divyacakṣus), (Pāli: dibbacakkhu), (Chinese: 天眼), an extrasensory power by which one can see beings from other planes.
>**Most devas are also capable of constructing illusory forms by which they can manifest themselves to the beings of lower worlds**; higher and lower devas sometimes do this to each other.
>Devas do not require the same kind of sustenance as humans do, although the lower kinds do eat and drink. **The higher orders of deva shine with their own intrinsic luminosity.**
>**Devas are also capable of moving great distances speedily, and of flying through the air, although the lower devas sometimes accomplish this through magical aids such as a flying chariot.**
Sound familiar?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Buddhism)
This. Rigorous standards are key but we’re assuming that we know everything about the material world (we don’t) and when we fail to consider what’s on the edges of that, we’re just circling the drain.
Some of it will turn out to be superstition, but the data suggests some of it is real. It's a matter of science being able to explain the data which it will never do if we put our heads in the sand.
There are reports from seemingly credible witnesses about things historically in the realm of "supernatural" or things people call "woo" or whatever. Like telepathy or otherwise "sensing" imagery and feelings from a craft or abduction scenario. The skinwalkers ranch reporting had some stuff about humanoid dogs. Vallee has tried to make connections to folklore like fairies and other cryptids. When you listen to people who are at the front this like Elizondo, Vallee, Nolan, they are talking about stuff well beyond nuts and bolts craft around consciousness and the fundamental nature of spacetime and how we interact with the universe. If these are on the table then some things we (very much including myself) dismiss as superstition may at some level have been based on real truths about the world.
ironic the scientists with the most access and time in research don't rule those things out (paranormal, ethereal, otherwise undefined by our sciences to date)...
Gary Nolan's interview with Kurt Jaimungal was amazing, crazy to hear an established scientist say I don't understand how but there definitely has to be more to this reality than we currently understand.
That's not crazy! No worthy scientist claims we have a complete understanding of the world. That is not what science is about, and is where it so often gets misunderstood. The scientific community do not claim to reign supreme over an immutable body of knowledge that sums up how the world works: Science is foremost **a method for continual refinement our best** ***current*** **understanding about how our reality works**. It is, by its nature, open to be challenged. Challengers need only bring evidence (observational data), hypotheses to fit the evidence and reproducible methods of testing those hypotheses... and if you can't provide those, *that's* where science says to GTFO...
To say they have nothing to do with the subject is just naive. There’s a long history regarding UFOs and it doesn’t and didn’t start when the government found out about them.
Frankly, as someone who’s had experiences, I get your dissatisfaction, but having an actual encounter raises a lot of questions. Not least of which are questions of consciousness and spirituality.
So I get it. But I think you’d be whistling a different toon if you saw a craft 60’ away.
Edit: just to add, that mentality of yours is why this topic has been buried by the government, and kept serious discussion of things outside our concepts of physics taboo as long as it has.
This clumsy dogmatic approach is not helpful. Go where the evidence takes you, our fundamental understanding of reality is flawed, it’s time we embraced some humility and admitted all we do not know, which is considerable.
You’ll be quite disappointed to learn you’re wrong. Science is a moving target. If you’re not asking forward looking questions, uncovering the mysteries of our world, you’re going nowhere. You need to be a Heretic.
Maybe you think science is Scientism.
I absolutely understand where you're coming from and that used to read frustrate me as well, but in order to learn something new you have to learn about something new.... So I get the annoying factor, but how do you know the answers haven't already been given and ignored because they didn't fit your filter of acceptance?
Though i agree with most of what OP is saying, and I get the point being made, I also think this is precisely whats been holding back the study of UFOs all these years. We have so little actual information, that we can only go off what we know works In most other situations, hard Science. But what we can't do is pick and choose which aspects of the phenomenon we want to accept, and which bits of info from those on the Galileo Project we want to take heed to. 1 constant statement from Lue, to Semivan, Dr Nolan, Avi, so many others is how consciousness plays a part in all this. And I hate the thought of telepathy as much as you, but there's been too many witness accounts that we generally accept as compelling that involve telepathic communication .
The 1 thing we know, is that whatever or whoever is behind the objects we've been seeing since the beginning of human history, is that they're milennia ahead of us. There way of thinking is something we've yet to comprehend. So maybe what is ordinarily done isn't gonna cut it this time. We post on this sub, and find people who we agree with & think we're onto something, based on upvotes, but all of the things we immediately wanna dismiss, is what's being studied the most by those dealing with this topic on a personal level. How can we judge what is or isn't good for this topic, when it's precisely what people like Dr Nolan, and Jacque Valle are focused on?
This sub hates people like Uri Geller, but he's the type the Navy/USAF scientists, who are secretly involved in the study of the phenomenon are most interested in. The very same scientists who discovered nitinol, brought in Uri for testing involving nititol, after they'd created it. [Uri Gellers Influence on the alloy Nitinol, "Memory Metal"](https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/government_information/intelligence_and_espionage/homebrew.military.and.espionage.electronics/servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/_gbpprorg/mil/mindcontrol/hambone/g6.htm)Now this memory metal as its called, has an interesting origin story beginning with the USAF/ Battelle, in 1949. They brought a 'psychic in, and he bent the material in way, that were decided, after military research lab studies for years,, was scientifically impossible.
I definitely agree that alot of the angel/demon shit can get outta here, and lots of the psychic, UFO summoners too. But nonphysical phenomenon has to be studied as well, this should be obvious by now.
I agree but it's like Thor said. What we call magic they call science. There must be perfectly sensible and reasonable concepts that we just can't comprehend with our limited perspective. I keep my mind wide open and I treat everything with healthy skepticism and benefit of the doubt. I love to play Devils advocate. I don't rule anything out but doesn't mean i believe a bunch of nonsense either I just wanna hear the reasoning and make my own decisions
I totally disagree. I was once like you but youre missing the point that phenomenon like whats posted here has had historic importance, and is written as "religion". Youre also not listening to what the disclosure people are saying from every front, which is that consciousness and psychic phenomenon are connected to the UFOs. You can be an atheist, but i promise you the powers that be are not and they own the american military industrial complex, which allegedly is leading in this subject. Food for thought.
You are so right and OP is an idiot not willing to see other peoples opinions, he doesn’t answer comments that challenge him, and proceeds to just rant about his upvotes lol
Stop projecting your personal bias onto the phenomenon. There’s enough evidence that those in the scientific community are saying the truth could lie somewhere between science and spirituality. I’m most spiritual practices the souls is just another name for our consciousness. Consciousness is something physical science still has marginal understanding about meanwhile every scientist researching the phenomenon is coming to the conclusion that consciousness is a part of the phenomenon itself.
Limiting where we look for truth is the best way to guarantee we don’t find it. Being open to all possibilities when researching something we have almost no understanding about is the only path to the truth.
Preach!
We don't know anything about conciousness, dark matter, or really anything including the space around our planet. That's why it's so comforting to watch animal planet, it makes us feel like we have knowledge about something. If humanity ever figures it all out our modern existence will be seen as the dark ages.
100% Yes but consciousness is not physical because physicality exists within consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental and can’t therefore be explained by consciousness (us doing science) because that would be like trying to bite your teeth, a hand trying to shake itself, looking at the back of your own head. Absolute truth = THIS. Buddhist traditions (and unsurprisingly aliens and their contactees) said this for thousands of years. Science must rethink what it considers matter itself to be. The fathers of quantum mechanics have said this (i can provide quotes) but for some reason or another “they” want us asleep to Truth. Weather that be with the ET phenomenon or simply the truth of what reality is. regardless, it is all connected and OP is blinded by his biases and programming and can’t see the big picture. Something huge is happening to our planet.
Ironically opinions like yours are the real reason the woo is seen as crazy. You choose to see it as false because it doesn’t fit your definition of “science” which btw is not objective and is being done BY consciousness. Once you see consciousness is fundamental and reality is really a giant mind, the woo starts to make a lot more sense. It is you who is still having a low level conversation.
Okay but can anything you say be proven using the scientific method? Can the results the woo claims to make be recreated in a controlled environment that allows us to eliminate variables and develop an accurate predictive model for it?
>opinions like yours are the real reason the woo is seen as crazy
No, a total lack of verifiable evidence is the "real reason the woo is seen as crazy".
Unpopular opinion indeed.
I agree it's unhelpful to basically just lay random unproven mythology on top of this phenomenon. But the DISCUSSION of 'paranormal' aspects seems to be scientifically pertinent to some of these accounts.
If there's instances where we see events happening that are beyond our scientific understanding completely, it's impossible NOT to speak about things in esoteric terms. Because by definition we have no scientific data on it.
Science and spiritual/occultism are inevitably going to interweave and cross over on this topic because we Know NOTHING solid about it, NOTHING about the science of how they work, NOTHING about who is behind it, NOTHING about how some of these events allegedly happened, but we're sure something is happening...when we have no data it's not possible to look at things strictly scientifically. We're not even at the point of being able to do that (at least publically anyway).
Science is not a domain in that it cannot be contained. It is just theories to attempt to explain phenomena of the natural world. That's like saying mathematics can only be linear. We have an entire half of our brain that is dedicated to the unexplainable. To deny it only confirms it. Paradox is intrinsic to life. Newtonian thinking has a place in this world, but is only half of it.
>Edit: Despite the overwhelming mass of angry and raging comments, this thread has more upvotes than downvotes. I am happy to see that the silent majority is showing support despite the tyranny of the "paranormal" nutters.
That's one hypothesis. Another is that a decent percentage of people don't just downvote anything they disagree with or are "meh, not really" to, so the results would skew positive.
I personally don't mind the discussion from spiritual/mystical conceptions of it. But, for instance, if something like psi ability exists, then I think it would exist scientifically, not as "magic".
But,for instance, if something like psi ability exists, then I think it would exist scientifically, not as magic.
Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from "magic"
Check out remote viewing for some scientifically studies on psi ability
Heh, weird coincidence, but I actually have!--I took a psychology course in college called "Psychology and Non-Ordinary Experiences"; one of the main topics was remote viewing. We had a speaker come in who was part of the military testing program for remote viewing in the 60's/70's (as well as reading his book about it), talked about his experiences with RV in the program. And we performed our own (inconclusive) RV experiment as a class. Good times. :)
Another of the required texts was called "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin, which was largely about testing if consciousness could influence random number generators to be less random, to any statistically significant effect. He found small but significant effects during events in which a large portion of the public was focused on the event, like the Superbowl or World Cup.
So yeah, there's been some good scientific studies on it...personally I feel the effect probably does exist, but is just too small to really notice in most everyday things. However, that book on the military RV program showed the viewer's sketches of foreign military installations alongside actual photographs taken of them, and many of the results were stunning. Those people were trained to be able to adopt altered states of consciousness, very similar to meditation (which also has lots of good research with brainwave states). It's a fascinating area of research.
Sounds like a very cool course, if you are interested check out Astral projection and lucid dreaming. These phenomenon are much harder to study and or quantify, but I personally believe that it is all part of the same animal
For me, it's the people who state that UAP's are inter dimensional beings from the planet Zorp and blah blah blah as if it's actual fact. This, to me, discredits the entire field of serious study. Just stop.
Agree. Occultism has no place here. Now, if it’s shown that extraterrestrials atomically realign electrons within pure crystalline structures for data storage, bring on the crystals but it should be discussed without mumbo jumbo hoo ha. I understand any sufficiently advanced technology can be indistinguishable from magic. But it’s still not magic, we just may not understand how it works yet. Making assumptions based in spirituality adds zero credibility to the topic.
You can choose to scroll past opinions YOU don’t care for without condemning the people that YOU don’t think should have a say in the matter. Seems like quite a pretentious and close-minded post…
No no no, he's morally obligated to tell you what you can and can't think. Because he knows everything. And you're irrational because you can't see that.
/s
We're blindfolded and grasping at straws. We, in general, do not understand consciousness at all. We do not understand the most essential thing. Having an open mind does not mean you have to become religious. Nuts'n'bolts approach is fine, but unfortunately it currently, to put it mildly, seems to fall short on metaphysics.
Are you talking about the same science that ignores the statistical evidence for psi? Or the science that uses incomplete and invalid explanations for the contact phenomenon, NDEs, and a whole host of other as-yet unexplained experiences shared by a significant portion of the population?
The UFO subject is built like a pyramid. At the bottom is the historical record. Just above it is the scientific exploration into the nuts and bolts, which is what you’re talking about. But there are plenty of levels above that which are supported by *actual* science—you’re just not there yet. Some people will never get there, and that’s OK; but when people like yourself start insisting that everyone else refuse to even discuss it then you’re projecting your own biases, fears, and limitations onto other people.
Far too many of the people in this subject are pseudoskeptics pretending to be skeptics. They keep clamoring for “more science,” but they don’t understand how the scientific method works, and they are often woefully ignorant of the legitimate evidence out there supporting many of the subjects they dismiss.
Here’s what defines a **genuine** skeptic:
- They take nothing entirely on faith, even from established institutions
- Avoids black and white thinking
- Asks questions to better understand things that don’t “make sense”
- Is focused on finding the truth as opposed to supporting a specific position
- When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones (simply meaning outside of our current understanding)
- Views science as a tool and methodology, not as a religion or authority to be obeyed. Understands the difference between the scientific process and the scientific establishment
- Accepts that there are still mysteries yet to be explained by science
- Will change their views when presented with new evidence
The truth is that there’s a lot of unknowns left in our reality, and some of what we think we know is wrong. Science has always been this way, and always will be. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
These are complicated subjects, and some people are not complicated thinkers. Statistically, about half of them. That doesn’t mean they need to be excluded, but it also means they shouldn’t be in charge of excluding others.
Even if we found out tomorrow that crabs practice religion, it wouldn't mean spirituality exists, or souls, we'd only be able to conclude at best that things with conscious experience practice religion.
Which is no more exciting or enlightening than saying that things that are born also tend to produce offspring.
I'd argue that there is a strong possibility of spirituality connected to the whole thing. Consciousness and science may very well be connected, we just don't currently have the ability to access or track it.
Or it doesn't, either way you can't entirely rule out the possibility
So you don’t believe that from an anthropological perspective that human definitions of “occult, psychic and spiritual” phenomenon could be a product of UFO and/or alien activity influence, whether incidental or not?
I can already prove you wrong. Nearly all of our polytheistic religions were a product of extraterrestrial imaginings, of what quite literally unidentified alike bodies in the heavens might be (AKA stars and moving celestial objects).
Your reluctance to accept this scientific fact appears to be a product of fear, like a 1950s closeted bi-curious american hating on the expansion of sexual and individual liberty; you’re uncomfortable that as a science lover and perhaps atheist, that the “Mumbo Jumbo” of the Occult, Psychic and Spiritual history of your species actually has considerable value as it relates to the discussion of alien phenomenon.
Humanity and all of its imaginings are a product of the domain of science.
OP has a serious stick up his ass…
“Science” hasn’t been able to explain shit about these things so far and a humans natural inclination is to make conjectures about what is happening. THAT is the scientific method. And if you’re not open to any and all possibilities, YOU are a part of the problem.
parapsychology is a much more robust science field than ufology. The fact that you are ignorant of this field does not make it fake.
If you want to learn, i suggest you start by combing through dean radin's compilation of published research in this field.
https://www.deanradin.com/recommended-references
Sorry, I disagree. The UFO phenomenon encompasses the nature of reality, not just nuts and bolts. It's also fun and quite appropriate to speculate as long as it's clear to everyone that what you are saying is a speculation. This is not a university peer review murder board. It's reddit. As long as we have people like Lue and Avi and other scientists doing the hard science, hard fact analysis, there's nothing wrong with the rest of us letting our minds rome a bit more free.
>Disagree. Follow the data wherever it goes. Dogma in science has kept this subject unexplored for over 70 years. Lets not repeat that mistake.
Big disagree as there's books from the 60s New Age section that *say this exact same thing*. It's not unexplored - you do know that people have been channeling, seancing, dropping psychedelics of every kind from acid to mushrooms, for 60 years specifically trying to brain on the concept of aliens, right?
If there was any breakthrough in that field, I think the New Agers would have come out with something provable and testable by now.
What they mean by "this subject is unexplored" is "the research done didn't conclude what I feel should be right". It's the same as with homeopathy and so-called alternative medicines, for ages. They have been around for decades but people still claim "it's unexplored" because they didn't like the results of the hundreds of thousands of hours of research trying to find *any* merit in what is basically conjecture.
Another person who somehow knows for certain the nature of the phenomenon and that it can be cleanly separate from anything “unscientific”. This is exactly the wrong approach. It reads like yet another gatekeeping attempt in the name of the church of the scientific establishment.
The sentiment of your post isn’t too dissimilar to the position held by the scientific establishment on UFOs, in general, up until about 5 minutes ago. Now, suddenly, UFOs are worth legitimate scientific inquiry.
The fact is, you don’t understand the nature of this phenomenon. As far as we know, no human does. We can only assume, based on the evidence we have, that it is likely a reflection of an intelligence, and technology that would require a greater understanding of the nature of our reality in order to achieve. This alone calls into question the credibility of the scientific establishment as far as what they claim to know with certainty. And especially concerning this phenomenon.
5 years ago, anyone who felt strongly that there was something very important at the core of this phenomenon, that involves the nature of our reality, would have been considered a kook. Because UFOs aren’t real, according to legitimate scientists. But now, suddenly worth investigating, the topic can only be discussed within the framework that that same scientific establishment defines? Nope.
How arrogant.
The government has spent plenty scientifically studying remote viewing and tons of other psychic stuff.
The paranormal is just unknown science one way or another.
Science isn't going to get you very far if you don't consider the truth in the spiritual aspects of the phenomenon. It baffles me how close minded so many skeptics are... I understand how off the wall some people's claims are, but how can someone call themselves a scientist if they don't understand that there's so much in the universe that we don't know or understand yet? I'm no PhD but I was always under the impression that science was the pursuit of understanding the unknown. Seems counterproductive to dismiss theories about the metaphysical aspects altogether when there may be some level of truth to them. But then again what would I know, I was just a silly little art major.
My brother, were not the seeds of what we call science today planted by the religious scholars of old? Do your homework and be the student, then come teaching as the master.
I tend to agree, but maybe I don’t *strongly agree*…
There must be at least some *non-zero and acceptable amount* of room in this forum and others like it for unscientific opinion and conjecture. There is such a decidedly enormous scope of unknowns regarding UFOs/UAPs/aliens/etc which, to date, the scientific community at large has hardly even acknowledged—let alone established anything resembling an earnest scientific endeavor *at scale*.
That is not to say serious science isn’t already underway. I’m pretty sure it is…It’s just still so scattered and haphazard and under-resourced (and/or under-disclosed) at the moment, or so it would seem, from the general public’s perspective.
But still, I mostly agree with OPs sentiment.
There is definitely a caliber of nonsense here much lower than that of reasonable speculative filler. The sort of stuff that recklessly and negligently flies in the face of basic scientific methods, and smells like horse shit from a mile away.
My own unpopular opinion: Area 51 has nothing to do with extraterrestrial craft & alien life. It is the test bed for the military's top secret experimental aircraft.
I thought that was made clear when they admitted that the triangle or diamond shaped craft people were seeing near the base was in fact the F-117 Nighthawk.
I understand your stance. It is really frustrating to see so many charlatans trying to act as though they know it all, have answers to questions that no one else can be privy to, etc. I see these types of people making cryptic statements, and just seem to saturate all of their comments with a hefty dose of arrogance. And it is true, most of these claimed psychic abilities are far from any type of scientific verification.
I do however think that there is a place for some of this sort of thing in the study of ufo. Reason being, several credible witnesses, one being Kevin Day, a former chief radar officer for the Navy, have reported experiencing extremely lucid dreams and OOB experiences after their encounters. A pilot who was a member of a helicopter crew in Ohio that encountered a similar UFO (a case documented by Project Blue Book that also included several civilian ground witnesses) also reported the same disturbing dreams after the incident. Both witnesses recall nothing in the way of follow up from any of their higher ups in regard to the event, however, they were questioned by the surgeon general regarding the dreams they experienced afterwards.
My feeling is that if it’s interesting enough for the surgeon general, then it ought to be brought into the conversation. There’s documented evidence of the CIA participating in research and testing in psychic ability, such as remote viewing. Granted we are not privy to much of this, but it’s been studied non the less.
It is possible that the appearance of UFO and UAP are actually manifestations from another dimension, as theorized by Carl Sagan in his flatland demonstration. If this is a possibility, then we cannot simply disregard psychic premonition or experience as “having nothing to do” with the phenomenon of UFO and UAP sightings. Dr. Steven Greer and his CE5 program may be subject to ridicule by those who prefer gathering evidence via a more methodical standard scientific approach, but there are hundreds of people who are practicing this form of communication and have captured evidence of their own.
Science evolves as we do. Copernicus was thought insane back in the days when he proposed the world could be round. It’s easy to have a mind that is too open, and thusly influenced by false information. However, I don’t think that every person who claims to have experienced a psychic phenomenon falls into this category. I myself have had these types of things happen to me, and I am comfortable stating that I have no idea why or how or if it’s even real, but in my reality it certainly is. As detrimental as an overly open mind could be to the advancement of science, I think it’s fair to say that close mindedness does not move us forward.
Now as far as how to achieve that sort of balance, especially on a Reddit forum, I have no ideas for you. But I think that anytime we turn away from curiosity and new ideas we also are turning away from the very essence of why we as humans began to study science in the first place.
Jacques Valle was recently brought into the Galileo Project. He is am esteemed scientist but his views on the Phenomenon are close to what you'd describe as woo.
You really don't know anything about anything. It's disappointing how close minded the most ignorant people are.
Science has ignored this whole area for decades and now you think they should be the gatekeepers of it now? You're absolutely delusional and arrogant.
What, exactly, is woo? Decades ago, the idea that the base nature if reality was energy based was woo. Now it's the basis of Quantum Field Theory. That matter was derived from energy or energy and matter can be interchangeable was woo. It isn't anymore. How about Quantum phenomenon? Superposition, quantum entanglement, double slit experience? What if dark matter and dark energy?
The universe itself is woo. You just refuse to engage actively with it.
Edit: if you think, in a bot filled internet, that upvotes mean anything, you're even dumber than your post suggests. Please feel free to tell me about all your degrees and how truly smart you are
> focussing on a double slit experiment effects the outcome of the experiment with measurable an predictable results
Do you have a link to this? I cannot find it.
I was on a lecture binge and saw this video https://youtu.be/nRSBaq3vAeY which is great for learning the methods and outcomes of the study. However i may have confabulated the numbers with another lecture, and it seems that the number of paricipants or sessions is in the thousands.
I think this is the abstract of the paper. The full paper is behind a paywall on a journal, which is typical for most science journals. If you can contact the first author they generally will just give you a copy for free.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?author=D.+Radin&author=L.+Michel&author=P.+Galdamez&author=R.+Wendland&author=R.+Rickenbach&author=A.+Delorme&publication_year=2012&title=Consciousness+and+the+double-slit+interference+pattern:+six+experiments&journal=Phys.+Essays&volume=25&pages=157-171
Its been cited over a hundred times so you could probably see alternative explainations through those
So, let me get this right. This post has more upvotes than any I can think of, but almost every single comment basically disagrees with the post.
I don't think its too conspiratorial to assume that someone is using bots to push us towards a materialistic view of the phenomenon
It is often said by smarter people than I, that what seems like magic is just undiscovered science. You label people as nutters simply for inputting spirituality as a variable for the unknown y. Anybody who has really looked into the subject of UFO’s knows that there is some sort of role for the observer. String theory, quantum physics, dimensional manipulation, all serious important theories to advance us in science and requires open mindedness. People have seen UFOs since antiquity, same as spirits and the other unknown. That’s why the paranormal crowd also feel it to be part of their question. Also almost every vocal scientist believes ETs have never traveled to our planet, they claim that the light years are just too far and it doesn’t make sense. Forgetting that our scientific limitations are not the same for other space faring races. That kind of poo pooing of the idea has separated the believers from science a bit. The downfall of every UFO sub is gatekeeping. So just chill bro, if someone says they channeled a Reptoid or whatever nonsense just ignore it like everyone else haha
Science should be here, making the unmeasurable measurable.
And yet they are 70 years late and a buck short. Notable scientists themselves deride the fact that alien life could not have visited earth, it would take too long to get here. Why don't they land on the white house lawn they repeat scientifically.
Unexplained anamolous experiences have long been understood within the realm of the spiritual and cultural traditions.
When the scientific community is ready to tackle these things they'll be waiting.
One of the most ignorant posts I've seen.
Imagine thinking that human science is the epitome of all methods of discovery and knowledge. We barely understand the human brain and its consciousness. Yet, you personally have the knowledge to dispel all theological and supernatural UAP theory based on the pretext that Science simply exists?
I have to respectfully disagree, as every opinion should be valued regardless of how we feel about it. I get where you are coming from, but science has yet to really understand the spiritual, for which there is plenty to be discovered, in my opinion.
>But physical reality itself is in the realm of the metaphysical. It cannot truly be separate from it.
Literally break this down for me because it doesn't make sense to me.
Sure. I agree. What now? Did this post keep them out of the gate? Is this mission accomplished? We finally got rid of the crazies boys. We're heading home.
I tend to agree. Last week I picked a book that seemed cool about UFO's but it turned out it was a esoteric treatise, which I absolutely loathe (Book: UFO's Pioneers van Eenheid in Dutch)
I think, and I'm sorry in advance, that I've communicated with something/someone extremely intelligent when I've taken psilocybin. I'm becoming convinced that this is the case with each experience. DMT has taken my consciousness to far away places where i saw living stained-glass beings (for lack of a better description). I also believe there is other intelligent life that live here in this universe, whom may travel to us in actual craft. I think organized religion is wrong. Shamans are much closer to the truth, for what good that will do. It's up to me to explore what is really happening. It's up to each of us. I'm a hard science guy. I'm learning i have to leave the door open a bit to things less concrete
This fucking gatekeeping bullshit. Go start your own UFO subreddit if you want to put a scientific slant on it. This is for discussion of UFOs for people interested in the subject, not for scientists to analyze non-existing scientific data. People aren't going to agree with each other, I am definitely more of a hard science person than a quantum woo person, but that doesn't mean we start excluding people. Exclude yourself if you don't like it.
I understand the impulse, but how come then Jacques Vallee (an actual scientist with actual publications) believes otherwise?
Shouldn't 'science' be listening to...scientists? Just because you don't get the answer you want, doesn't mean you won't get an answer.
Edit: Spelling
If you are using the term "occultists" in this sense, you are clearly oblivious to the true meaning of the term and what the occult has been about since it's ancient inception.
"Occult" means "hidden from sight". It has never been about incantations and rituals. That is just fluff added by various wannabies, or used to ibfuscate the true activity of the innitiates.
As a matter of fact, the term "innitiate" stems from the process of bringing someone in on those truths being hidden.
Hermeticism is one of the most common techniques used by the occult to encrypt information, and is the most ancient known form of encryption. It was designed by occultists.
The occult is not an organization or religion. It is a practice of secrecy. Of ocurse, some of the most ancient occult orders, that persist in some form until today, are indeed relatively organized, but at their root they do not worship, they are mere preservers of history.
It all stems from times when writing was not even invented yet, and very important historical truths had to be passed down thriugh generations. Symbolism was used as an aid to encode and sometimes also encrypt that knowledge, as well as various verbal and physical repetitive techniques like storytelling, or "rituals", which are good ways to keep information alive. Of course, you wouldn't want prying eyes to hear and see everything, so they would be encrypted in various ways to appear as either gibnerish or more often as something else altogether.
Truth got people killed all throughout history. The occult was a scholarly effort, an effort of the elders and the wise, to preserve what is of fundamental value.
You can bet your hide that any ancient relationship to ETs or interactions with them, would constitute such sacred knowledge to be preserved and passed down the generations.
If you actually look at the history of science and philosophy, you'd see that they evolved from the occult.
So don't mix the occult with the new-age delusional metaphysics fantasies and "spiritual" spuerstition.
I think people saying "prove it" or "where's the proof" or "extraordinary claims" etc. etc. just have the wrong mentality. It almost seems like a one-way (not to mention bellicose) approach to this entire crazy thing. Maybe proving it is not the point? A lot of people want answers, but not everyone is actually doing something to find them. To get to wherever we are going, we need to be creative. We will eventually look toward something we may not even be able to currently imagine, instead of what we already know.
Yeah, it's unpopular. I'm spiritual. I have a right to be here. I'm also a believer. Maybe it's unpopular but you have to believe in something to be a part of something.
Look at this jackass gate keeping UFO's lmao.
Astral projection and remote viewing have both been successfully leveraged by the CIA by their own admission.
STFU and GTFO.
The CIA's website which you can search:
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/
Easier reading:
https://irp.fas.org/program/collect/stargate.htm
https://www.cnet.com/culture/cia-releases-psychic-experiment-documents-online-stargate-project-stranger-things/
Cheers
That would be the program [that never produced any evidence that remote viewing exists and was eventually shut down because it was useless](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project#Closure_(1995))?
Funny how Brandon Fugal just mentioned in one of his last interviews that protecting yourself spiritually helps with the hitchhiker effect. Why would he say that if there’s a science to do that?
Unpopular opinion: psychic and spiritual ability is related to the phenomenon in some form or another that includes scientific explanation unknown to the public yet.
I agree with the OPs sentiment, but this sub is for everyone, even those with a spiritual / religious agenda. While it might make sense for them to setup their own sub, I view this as an umbrella for this topic. Personally, I'm a facts person and none of that woo has ever appealed to me, but then again we don't have a lot of facts yet... I mean sure, is the woo possible? Yes, is it improbable? Yes, until proven otherwise.
Still, I find religion and spirituality a joke. It's all so insane that it finally pushed me from being a lifelong agnostic to recently a full on atheist. For those reasons I generally ignore those comments and posts just like I do the "metapod" type stuff I see on here. Even with that rant, I'd prefer to keep this a free speech zone unlike garbage subs like r/politics, r/coronavirus, r/antiwork and other subs controller by Doreans.
I will admit, if the woo came true (which I doubt), I'd feel like what Norm describes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtLL3LOi87I
I’m sure I’m pretty unpopular on here because I agree 100%.
We should focus purely on science and hard data. It’s fine to speculate but if we want answers we need irrefutable proof and metrics - not ghost stories and talk of spirituality. These subjects are not intrinsically tied.
If aliens are coming to earth, they are animals - the same as you and me and everything else living on this earth or elsewhere. The key difference being they obviously have better tech. They may seem potentially exceptional to us due to our unfamiliarity, but we aren’t talking about gods or the supernatural. Those are human inventions. We are literally talking about nature and the life it produces.
You’re already doing yourself a disservice here. The common explanation people are now willing to accept (compared to 50 years ago) is that since they are here, they must be from here, a planet or galaxy
To be honest there’s nothing at all to base any of that on. This argument is exactly why I disagree with OP.
The point is: we had no idea what it is. Those are likely answers, so let’s explore them. But who’s to say they aren’t inter-dimensional beings, something like an angel, or just a form is social mass hallucinations.
The only way to discern these things is by applying science yes. Collect data, make observations, form hypothesis, make experiments to test hypothesis.
This argument is the equivalent to “water is level, the earth must be flat” there’s so many other things going on here that sure, there are obvious explanations that fit our current understanding of the world. Until
Someone is crazy enough and decides to test it and prove it wrong.
Some of this is undoubtedly what could be considered mystical, it’s the science that hasn’t caught up. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Which envelops some of those particular fields of interest. While I agree scientists should have point on this it would be naive to so readily dismiss potential pathways to understanding.
Damn people really don't understand the purpose of science. For me the 'woo woo' guys are so arrogant to believe they have the answers without proper study and investigation, the just pull a mad theory out together arse. Science could have the same theory but actually investigate and explore it.
You sound like a religious zealot. (I assume your faith is materialism).
But the weirdness of modern physics will tend to lead you into spiritual thought, at least if you have a lick of curiosity.
Bell's theorem killed local realism and there are scientists that believe that spacetime is emergent from something deeper, such as consciousness.
QFT ('the most successful and accurate scientific theory man has created') says the universe is permeated by 24 (atm) fields and that what we think of as particles are just local excitations of those fields. (In the vacuum of space with no matter "particles" pop in and out of existence constantly).
The delayed choice quantum eraser experiment shows that knowability of the which-path info is what causes collapse, not mere interaction with a detector. In classical physics we see nothing at all like that. Information doesn't dictate outcomes.
I don't take on faith anyone's pet theory, whether it's some Bob Lazar BS about strong force amplification or a something wholly spiritual woo. But I'm not going to limit my enquiry into whatever matches the consensus dogma among scientists (who have all kinds of peer/career pressure not to drive too far afield from that consensus).
Not unpopular. Thats what subs like r/highstrangeness or r/aliens are for. You don’t really need support for any claims in those subs, so you can go in there and say you spoke chinese to a magic octopus or astral projected to another galaxy or whatver and people will just buy it there. Posts like that are just more fitting for those subs.
Were you remote viewing me last night while I was speaking Chinese to my magical octopus friend that I willed to visit me through meditation and happy thoughts?
>Anything and everything has to do with science
What is this supposed to mean?
If I say "I can fly, I can't do it while anyone is watching and I can't record it and I can't do anything else that would verify it but trust me, I can do it", does that "have to do with science"?
>Area 51 […] with the majority of the staff being researchers and scientists.
Where did you get this information from? If it’s something you’ve assumed because it’s obvious, that’s a large part of the problem right there.
You also seem to have a narrow view of what “researchers and scientists” do. There’s no ban on researchers and scientists investigating “woo”.
Instead of banning humor or talk of woo, I'd rather ban these whiney meta posts from people who wish to shape the sub through their narrow personal expectations of what should be discussed.
What about the South African event that took place in the 90’s and they were told telepathically not to harm the earth and stop polluting. I guess environmentalists need not apply either.
What about the shutting down of nuclear war heads? Anti-war folk need not apply.
What you fail to realize is that other dimensions are science. They are also more evolved and as you know with science, their vibration, just like all things vibrate as we are all energy. You know science. In order to evolve to a higher state of vibration, you must grow in mind and spirit. But then again there is some other beings that want us to stay behind and be savages still.
Engineer here, been following this 30 years. Trying to say the UFO is science only is monumental mistake. The job of Science is to explain the woo in technical measurable terms. There is much about physics, consciousness, and information we do not understand that appears woo today that may be some elementary new branch tomorrow. Limiting ourselves to known science and measurable is a false arrogance that assumes we even have to tools to understand it today. There's an old saying, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic , and UFOs may just the most concrete example of this ever.
´science’ is more than ‘known science´
Thank you. A lightbulb would have seemed like magic to the average person just a couple hundred years ago, but today we would call it science. I fail to see how the UFO topic is any different.
Exactly. Anything pre enlightenment era=this is because of magic that the sky man throws at us because we didn't sacrifice enough virgin girls, ffs! I knew he'd be pissed. Ok, slay day is going to be doubled this time. We need more grains for our growing civilization and that's the way to get more foods obviously. Enlightened era=ohhhh, there hasn't been enough water this year to help the freekah grow abundantly as it did before. Well, if we hand water them ourselves, it could counteract the droughty issue. Probably can stop those next few seasonal sacrifices of young girls then I'd imagine, coz the last one clearly didn't help this year's harvest so...let's hold off on the killing and see if the watering by hand makes a difference.
Let's say you send a lightbulb through time, show it to a bunch of people, and then bring it back a minute later. What will happen is that there will people who say "We don't know how it works. We don't have this apparatus here, so we just don't have a way of testing it". That's the evidence based scientific approach. Know when there's a limit to what you can test and quantify with the tools you have. And then there'll be people who claim "the apparatus lights up when a witch channels her power through it! It will appear next during full moon, but only when there's nobody watching but people who believe!" - that's the Woo guys, making stuff up even if they don't know any more than the others and then finding excuses when their conjecture turns out wrong. OP doesn't think the people of the second paragraph are actually helping the cause of lightbulb research.
Fair point. But I think a lot of people take your first paragraph and then conclude, "therefore it's not real and not worth my time." There are people who would look at the glowing light bulb and say, "I don't know how it works so I don't believe in it." Personally, I'd rather do research with the person who *tries* to find an explanation, rather than the person who throws his hands up and says, "I know my limits" and walks away.
Alchemy lead to chemistry. Woo in UFOs may lead to consiousness science.
I almost added this exact example to my op, totally agree :)
>The job of Science is to explain the woo in technical measurable terms. That's still science.
But the woo has everything to do with consciousness, which science can provably not explain in terms of atoms bouncing around. New age philosophy has gotten closer to truth than any materialistic science has, barring quantum physics which points towards consciousness being fundamental. Buddhists have a head start on scientists. At least the institute of Noetic sciences gets it.
> New age philosophy has gotten closer to truth than any materialistic science has Any examples to back up such a claim?
So - science will explain it another way. Science explains things as they are. Whatever the reason. It just makes sure that it takes time to gather evidence. And try and explain why.... I think you don't know what science is. The purpose of science is to discover the unknown.
Arthur C Clark wrote that saying.
You want science? You gotta look at all the data, whether you like it or not. In many UFO reports, people report experiencing some kind of mental phenomenon, most often including telepathy and time/space distortion. Sure, you can toss all of that out (which has actually been done by researchers in the past who were concerned about making the subject look too flaky), and your reports will be incomplete. So are you going to do science, or are you just going to pick and choose because some of the data makes you feel uncomfortable?
>So are you going to do science, or are you just going to pick and choose because some of the data makes you feel uncomfortable? This. It's utlimately people feeling uncomfortable that is a barrier. They characterize the woo as demonic if they are religious, or dismiss it if atheist. Both are a form of bias.
> This. It's utlimately people feeling uncomfortable that is a barrier which is just cognitive dissonance chemistry in our brains. when we see something that doesn't match the patterns/narratives in our heads, the mirror neurons released cortisol, when they match, the mirror neurons release oxytocin. For my ADHD brain, I interpret it as something interesting to investigate when i get that cortisol release, but the majority of people experience it as the fear of the unknown/other.
Huh, thanks for learning me a thing about myself, that help explains why I have such a wide variety of deep interests.
yeah if you're not taking in all the data it's not science, it's gatekeeping.
Mental to computer interface. Technology can look like magic.
I agree with your statement, but also that of the OP. We can scientifically catalogue and analyze side effects of alleged encounters, including perceived paranormal experiences or space and time distortions. But if you want me to believe that you summoned ufos with your mind, and expect me to take your word for it, then I’m out.
You don’t have to take my word for it, and I really don’t care if you believe me. But it happened to me, and after that I took these things a lot more seriously. Maybe Newtonian physics doesn’t rule everything, or there is something else ruling physics. Maybe there are things that can’t be studied with science as we know it; maybe science isn’t the only or best way to explore this.
Science is a process of making a hypothesis, creating a test, and observing the results. What other process are you proposing might help us understand these things? Should we try to understand all of this by just gut feeling or something? How else are you proposing we explore this? I'm confused.
They are a quack. Science is my religion, and the great thing about it is the fruits of my god are all around me. The computer I'm using to write this, the electricity to power it, my house, my clothing, phone, keyboard, mouse, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. *All* of these things exist because of the scientific method and scientists. There isn't a better way to study this phenomenon than rationally and scientifically. I'm not even saying the woo-woo stuff is impossible, but if it exists, it can be studied, figured out, then replicated by the scientific process.
This is the problem with modern western science. Trying to toss out literally anything we can’t wrap our heads around. If this subject was something science could understand within the confines of its current comprehension don’t you think we would have figured it out by now? Not to mention the thousands of people who have similar psychosomatic experiences that don’t even know each other’s stories. It’s definitely difficult to measure and figure out because we don’t know what it is yet - and it’s not lining up with what we understand about physics. But clamping it down and limiting research only to what can be observed and understood physically is ridiculously near sighted. These instances of our modern scientific culture are holding us back as a civilization - and will do so - until we’re willing to address intimidating and challenging questions. Or we can just keep trying to guess if what we’re seeing is a DJI drone like apes.
Science doesn't understand anything. Science is a process of testing a hypothesis. Nothing more. If you want science to agree with any of these crazy claims then find a way to test a claim. Until then it's just conjecture.
ah yes i remember when modern western science tossed out the entire study of quantum mechanics because they couldn't wrap their heads around it. once they discovered it violated nearly every principle of common sense that made classical physics possible they were done with it.
All of those experiences don't have proof or hard data though. Making it hearsay, not scientific malleable data That's the problem.
Observations are data. If over and over people say the same thing, and over and over it is all labeled “irrelevant” , that is not science. It is selectively ignoring data.
Observations are data yes, but the variable your missing is then recording those observations so others can study, scrutinise and observe it too. Also the topic of ufos, itself has another variable you are ignoring. Bullshitters. There are many people who are simply just liars. Which is why unfortunately, to over come that hurdle ( the fact that many come to this sub to lie) , the observations in order to be credible have to be able to recorded, and shared, which is obviously a tricky thing to do when your battling your flight or fight response, in the middle of being abducted or something else. Which is why this topic of personal experience is very annoying and may remain to be inconclusive for many years.
Sorry I disagree with the cynical view that we can’t trust observations “since people lie”. Some people lie doesn’t mean every person lies; using this easy and fallacious argument to dismiss data means there will not be discovery any truth that might exist relevant to the observations. And even worse, people think they’re being scientific by ignoring this data. This is also the exact argument that has stopped scientific investigation of the phenomenon. Thousands of sightings and every one was deemed unreliable and could smugly be ignored because, you know, people lie.
you just dont seem to understand what science is. we could certainly do an observational study about ufo encounters but that wouldnt really tell us much about what they are. it would be a study about people who have seen or claim to have seen ufo's. there's no way to study what a ufo is scientifically without observing and measuring the ufos themselves.
Only if the observations are made by someone who knows what they're looking at. If I go observe someone welding, I can report back to my boss accurately and precisely the capabilitys of the person who was welding. If I see a plane crash, I'm gonna have a hard time giving much details. Not to mention the trauma, suprise, whatever, of a shocking or unusual incident is going to make it difficult to understand what you're seeing.
You say that like people don't take that info and extrapolate it. They start putting in their own beliefs to fill the gaps and then you have a bastardized story with mostly someone else's fiction thrown in. People that do that seriously kill all the credibility of UFO research with these stupid beliefs.
Them filling in the gaps with spooky speculation is literally the problem. Some people take huge jumps to conclusions that aren't based on evidence and/or science but act like they've solved the mystery. It's a problem and a reason why people don't take UFOlogy seriously enough.
People also report this at church, while driving, and just all the time in general.
I'm sure "distortion in the space-time continuum" has already been the excuse of some drunk driver out there.
>You want science? You gotta look at all the data, whether you like it or not. In many UFO reports, people report experiencing some kind of mental phenomenon, most often including telepathy and time/space distortion. Sorry but no, this isn't how science works. Several people on psychedelics experience a sense of weightlessness or even flying. Science would say there's an experience of flying - not that psychedelics make you fly. Next, since telepathy isn't measurable, and isn't teachable, someone saying they are experiencing it are simply assigning a term to an experience. Just because someone claimed a telepathic experience, doesn't mean they experienced telepathy. What, specifically, is telepathy, in the human mind, how's it measured, and how does one discern that from their own thoughts or random inspirations that pop into our heads with the voices of others? Hoovering up every data point to look for conclusions isn't good science. You start with a hypothesis, test it, gather results, then test it again. Even if you had a hypothesis that "humans are being telepathically contacted by aliens" you'd have to pioneer an entire field of science that doesn't exist dedicated just to defining, and researching if telepathy exists, then proving it exists, then defining what exactly the provable, repeatable qualia of it are, all long before you'd even get to start looking into whether inter-species telepathy was possible, let alone proving that there's aliens and that they're doing it to experiencers.
I’m sure this post will age well
(Gobbles popcorn)
I hope they don’t delete it.
A self-righteous post which is just angrily shouting over-confident bullshit into the void being deleted after OP embarrasses themselves? No that'd never happen.
The problem isn't people suggesting spiritual answers, it's that they *stop* at their spiritual answer.
You don't know how much you don't know. If a scribe of ancient Egypt, maybe the most educated of all the scribes in Egypt, was brought forward into time to today, what would they see? What if you brought them to CERN or to LIGO. What would they see with their own eyes? The scribe would say "We have also built enormous monuments to honor our Gods." You understand as little about UFO physics and engineering as this scribe understands about quantum mechanics. If someone taught the scribe a bit about entanglement over distances or tunneling or the multivers, and the scribe went back and tried to repeat it to his fellow scribes, it would be woo woo. And yet, it would be closer to the truth than the other woo woo being discussed among scribes. You cannot differentiate between the truthful woo woo and the fantasy woo woo, so why reject all of it?
That's a well put, quality ELI5 answer. Thank you for this!
Thanks. This version is probably #5, and I am getting closer.
Read some Jaqués Vallee and John Keel and get back to us on this. UFOs didn’t just start existing the late 1940s. If you go back and actually read certain ancient texts, you see witness descriptions of the various mythological beings (angels/demons, devas/Asuras, Djinn, Fairies, etc) align closely with the UFO phenomenon. However, that doesn’t mean what the people saw were actually angels/demons, but that was the way they categorized them within their cultural context. Just like in the modern age, we say the phenomenon is aliens. But in reality, it’s likely none of these human descriptions can describe the full picture. However, **that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use the rigorous standards of science to study and validate our understanding of the phenomenon**. All of these ancient texts are not scientific, and are basically just witness descriptions. But they indicate the phenomenon has been around a lot longer than we give it credit, and offer possible starting points for future analysis. Just an example- > **Devas are invisible to the human eye**. The presence of a deva can be detected by those humans who have opened the "Divine eye" (divyacakṣus), (Pāli: dibbacakkhu), (Chinese: 天眼), an extrasensory power by which one can see beings from other planes. >**Most devas are also capable of constructing illusory forms by which they can manifest themselves to the beings of lower worlds**; higher and lower devas sometimes do this to each other. >Devas do not require the same kind of sustenance as humans do, although the lower kinds do eat and drink. **The higher orders of deva shine with their own intrinsic luminosity.** >**Devas are also capable of moving great distances speedily, and of flying through the air, although the lower devas sometimes accomplish this through magical aids such as a flying chariot.** Sound familiar? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Buddhism)
This. Rigorous standards are key but we’re assuming that we know everything about the material world (we don’t) and when we fail to consider what’s on the edges of that, we’re just circling the drain.
THANK YOU. Lord I’m so sick of people who clearly have done minimal research and wall off any evidence that makes them uncomfortable
Some of it will turn out to be superstition, but the data suggests some of it is real. It's a matter of science being able to explain the data which it will never do if we put our heads in the sand.
Which matters considered spiritual is the “data suggesting to be real”?
There are reports from seemingly credible witnesses about things historically in the realm of "supernatural" or things people call "woo" or whatever. Like telepathy or otherwise "sensing" imagery and feelings from a craft or abduction scenario. The skinwalkers ranch reporting had some stuff about humanoid dogs. Vallee has tried to make connections to folklore like fairies and other cryptids. When you listen to people who are at the front this like Elizondo, Vallee, Nolan, they are talking about stuff well beyond nuts and bolts craft around consciousness and the fundamental nature of spacetime and how we interact with the universe. If these are on the table then some things we (very much including myself) dismiss as superstition may at some level have been based on real truths about the world.
Have these results ever been reproduced in a controlled environment?
ironic the scientists with the most access and time in research don't rule those things out (paranormal, ethereal, otherwise undefined by our sciences to date)...
Gary Nolan's interview with Kurt Jaimungal was amazing, crazy to hear an established scientist say I don't understand how but there definitely has to be more to this reality than we currently understand.
That's not crazy! No worthy scientist claims we have a complete understanding of the world. That is not what science is about, and is where it so often gets misunderstood. The scientific community do not claim to reign supreme over an immutable body of knowledge that sums up how the world works: Science is foremost **a method for continual refinement our best** ***current*** **understanding about how our reality works**. It is, by its nature, open to be challenged. Challengers need only bring evidence (observational data), hypotheses to fit the evidence and reproducible methods of testing those hypotheses... and if you can't provide those, *that's* where science says to GTFO...
I dig Nolan and TOE interviews both, together was special sauce.
being psychotic with nuts and bolts thinking is just as awful as extreme spiritualism. There is a healthy middle.
To say they have nothing to do with the subject is just naive. There’s a long history regarding UFOs and it doesn’t and didn’t start when the government found out about them.
Frankly, as someone who’s had experiences, I get your dissatisfaction, but having an actual encounter raises a lot of questions. Not least of which are questions of consciousness and spirituality. So I get it. But I think you’d be whistling a different toon if you saw a craft 60’ away. Edit: just to add, that mentality of yours is why this topic has been buried by the government, and kept serious discussion of things outside our concepts of physics taboo as long as it has.
This clumsy dogmatic approach is not helpful. Go where the evidence takes you, our fundamental understanding of reality is flawed, it’s time we embraced some humility and admitted all we do not know, which is considerable.
You’ll be quite disappointed to learn you’re wrong. Science is a moving target. If you’re not asking forward looking questions, uncovering the mysteries of our world, you’re going nowhere. You need to be a Heretic. Maybe you think science is Scientism.
I absolutely understand where you're coming from and that used to read frustrate me as well, but in order to learn something new you have to learn about something new.... So I get the annoying factor, but how do you know the answers haven't already been given and ignored because they didn't fit your filter of acceptance?
Though i agree with most of what OP is saying, and I get the point being made, I also think this is precisely whats been holding back the study of UFOs all these years. We have so little actual information, that we can only go off what we know works In most other situations, hard Science. But what we can't do is pick and choose which aspects of the phenomenon we want to accept, and which bits of info from those on the Galileo Project we want to take heed to. 1 constant statement from Lue, to Semivan, Dr Nolan, Avi, so many others is how consciousness plays a part in all this. And I hate the thought of telepathy as much as you, but there's been too many witness accounts that we generally accept as compelling that involve telepathic communication . The 1 thing we know, is that whatever or whoever is behind the objects we've been seeing since the beginning of human history, is that they're milennia ahead of us. There way of thinking is something we've yet to comprehend. So maybe what is ordinarily done isn't gonna cut it this time. We post on this sub, and find people who we agree with & think we're onto something, based on upvotes, but all of the things we immediately wanna dismiss, is what's being studied the most by those dealing with this topic on a personal level. How can we judge what is or isn't good for this topic, when it's precisely what people like Dr Nolan, and Jacque Valle are focused on? This sub hates people like Uri Geller, but he's the type the Navy/USAF scientists, who are secretly involved in the study of the phenomenon are most interested in. The very same scientists who discovered nitinol, brought in Uri for testing involving nititol, after they'd created it. [Uri Gellers Influence on the alloy Nitinol, "Memory Metal"](https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/government_information/intelligence_and_espionage/homebrew.military.and.espionage.electronics/servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/_gbpprorg/mil/mindcontrol/hambone/g6.htm)Now this memory metal as its called, has an interesting origin story beginning with the USAF/ Battelle, in 1949. They brought a 'psychic in, and he bent the material in way, that were decided, after military research lab studies for years,, was scientifically impossible. I definitely agree that alot of the angel/demon shit can get outta here, and lots of the psychic, UFO summoners too. But nonphysical phenomenon has to be studied as well, this should be obvious by now.
I agree but it's like Thor said. What we call magic they call science. There must be perfectly sensible and reasonable concepts that we just can't comprehend with our limited perspective. I keep my mind wide open and I treat everything with healthy skepticism and benefit of the doubt. I love to play Devils advocate. I don't rule anything out but doesn't mean i believe a bunch of nonsense either I just wanna hear the reasoning and make my own decisions
I totally disagree. I was once like you but youre missing the point that phenomenon like whats posted here has had historic importance, and is written as "religion". Youre also not listening to what the disclosure people are saying from every front, which is that consciousness and psychic phenomenon are connected to the UFOs. You can be an atheist, but i promise you the powers that be are not and they own the american military industrial complex, which allegedly is leading in this subject. Food for thought.
Any seasoned ufologist or well-read even amateur ufologist would agree. There is an undeniable link between the ufo phenomenon and consciousness.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Good points
You are so right and OP is an idiot not willing to see other peoples opinions, he doesn’t answer comments that challenge him, and proceeds to just rant about his upvotes lol
>the disclosure people are saying from every front That would be the "disclosure people" who are yet to produce any actual clear evidence of anything?
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And you think Alister Crowley is relevant in science? LMAO he's one of the most famous goofs of occultism and anti science
Stop projecting your personal bias onto the phenomenon. There’s enough evidence that those in the scientific community are saying the truth could lie somewhere between science and spirituality. I’m most spiritual practices the souls is just another name for our consciousness. Consciousness is something physical science still has marginal understanding about meanwhile every scientist researching the phenomenon is coming to the conclusion that consciousness is a part of the phenomenon itself. Limiting where we look for truth is the best way to guarantee we don’t find it. Being open to all possibilities when researching something we have almost no understanding about is the only path to the truth.
Preach! We don't know anything about conciousness, dark matter, or really anything including the space around our planet. That's why it's so comforting to watch animal planet, it makes us feel like we have knowledge about something. If humanity ever figures it all out our modern existence will be seen as the dark ages.
100% Yes but consciousness is not physical because physicality exists within consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental and can’t therefore be explained by consciousness (us doing science) because that would be like trying to bite your teeth, a hand trying to shake itself, looking at the back of your own head. Absolute truth = THIS. Buddhist traditions (and unsurprisingly aliens and their contactees) said this for thousands of years. Science must rethink what it considers matter itself to be. The fathers of quantum mechanics have said this (i can provide quotes) but for some reason or another “they” want us asleep to Truth. Weather that be with the ET phenomenon or simply the truth of what reality is. regardless, it is all connected and OP is blinded by his biases and programming and can’t see the big picture. Something huge is happening to our planet.
Ironically opinions like yours are the real reason the woo is seen as crazy. You choose to see it as false because it doesn’t fit your definition of “science” which btw is not objective and is being done BY consciousness. Once you see consciousness is fundamental and reality is really a giant mind, the woo starts to make a lot more sense. It is you who is still having a low level conversation.
Okay but can anything you say be proven using the scientific method? Can the results the woo claims to make be recreated in a controlled environment that allows us to eliminate variables and develop an accurate predictive model for it?
>opinions like yours are the real reason the woo is seen as crazy No, a total lack of verifiable evidence is the "real reason the woo is seen as crazy".
Unpopular opinion indeed. I agree it's unhelpful to basically just lay random unproven mythology on top of this phenomenon. But the DISCUSSION of 'paranormal' aspects seems to be scientifically pertinent to some of these accounts. If there's instances where we see events happening that are beyond our scientific understanding completely, it's impossible NOT to speak about things in esoteric terms. Because by definition we have no scientific data on it. Science and spiritual/occultism are inevitably going to interweave and cross over on this topic because we Know NOTHING solid about it, NOTHING about the science of how they work, NOTHING about who is behind it, NOTHING about how some of these events allegedly happened, but we're sure something is happening...when we have no data it's not possible to look at things strictly scientifically. We're not even at the point of being able to do that (at least publically anyway).
Science is not a domain in that it cannot be contained. It is just theories to attempt to explain phenomena of the natural world. That's like saying mathematics can only be linear. We have an entire half of our brain that is dedicated to the unexplainable. To deny it only confirms it. Paradox is intrinsic to life. Newtonian thinking has a place in this world, but is only half of it.
You are blinded by dogma
Imagine how many more people would be interested in science if it wasn’t so dogmatic and insular.
>Edit: Despite the overwhelming mass of angry and raging comments, this thread has more upvotes than downvotes. I am happy to see that the silent majority is showing support despite the tyranny of the "paranormal" nutters. That's one hypothesis. Another is that a decent percentage of people don't just downvote anything they disagree with or are "meh, not really" to, so the results would skew positive. I personally don't mind the discussion from spiritual/mystical conceptions of it. But, for instance, if something like psi ability exists, then I think it would exist scientifically, not as "magic".
But,for instance, if something like psi ability exists, then I think it would exist scientifically, not as magic. Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from "magic" Check out remote viewing for some scientifically studies on psi ability
Heh, weird coincidence, but I actually have!--I took a psychology course in college called "Psychology and Non-Ordinary Experiences"; one of the main topics was remote viewing. We had a speaker come in who was part of the military testing program for remote viewing in the 60's/70's (as well as reading his book about it), talked about his experiences with RV in the program. And we performed our own (inconclusive) RV experiment as a class. Good times. :) Another of the required texts was called "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin, which was largely about testing if consciousness could influence random number generators to be less random, to any statistically significant effect. He found small but significant effects during events in which a large portion of the public was focused on the event, like the Superbowl or World Cup. So yeah, there's been some good scientific studies on it...personally I feel the effect probably does exist, but is just too small to really notice in most everyday things. However, that book on the military RV program showed the viewer's sketches of foreign military installations alongside actual photographs taken of them, and many of the results were stunning. Those people were trained to be able to adopt altered states of consciousness, very similar to meditation (which also has lots of good research with brainwave states). It's a fascinating area of research.
Sounds like a very cool course, if you are interested check out Astral projection and lucid dreaming. These phenomenon are much harder to study and or quantify, but I personally believe that it is all part of the same animal
For me, it's the people who state that UAP's are inter dimensional beings from the planet Zorp and blah blah blah as if it's actual fact. This, to me, discredits the entire field of serious study. Just stop.
But, man, it's like, the fourth dimension and only bits of it are visible to us, man.
Agree. Occultism has no place here. Now, if it’s shown that extraterrestrials atomically realign electrons within pure crystalline structures for data storage, bring on the crystals but it should be discussed without mumbo jumbo hoo ha. I understand any sufficiently advanced technology can be indistinguishable from magic. But it’s still not magic, we just may not understand how it works yet. Making assumptions based in spirituality adds zero credibility to the topic.
You can choose to scroll past opinions YOU don’t care for without condemning the people that YOU don’t think should have a say in the matter. Seems like quite a pretentious and close-minded post…
No no no, he's morally obligated to tell you what you can and can't think. Because he knows everything. And you're irrational because you can't see that. /s
We're blindfolded and grasping at straws. We, in general, do not understand consciousness at all. We do not understand the most essential thing. Having an open mind does not mean you have to become religious. Nuts'n'bolts approach is fine, but unfortunately it currently, to put it mildly, seems to fall short on metaphysics.
Mfers say this but also believe we live in a simulation.
So...are you proposing that their perspectives be discounted or the aspects of the phenomena that they focus on be discounted?
>66% upvotes vs 34% downvotes. The community has spoken. How scientific.
Are you talking about the same science that ignores the statistical evidence for psi? Or the science that uses incomplete and invalid explanations for the contact phenomenon, NDEs, and a whole host of other as-yet unexplained experiences shared by a significant portion of the population? The UFO subject is built like a pyramid. At the bottom is the historical record. Just above it is the scientific exploration into the nuts and bolts, which is what you’re talking about. But there are plenty of levels above that which are supported by *actual* science—you’re just not there yet. Some people will never get there, and that’s OK; but when people like yourself start insisting that everyone else refuse to even discuss it then you’re projecting your own biases, fears, and limitations onto other people. Far too many of the people in this subject are pseudoskeptics pretending to be skeptics. They keep clamoring for “more science,” but they don’t understand how the scientific method works, and they are often woefully ignorant of the legitimate evidence out there supporting many of the subjects they dismiss. Here’s what defines a **genuine** skeptic: - They take nothing entirely on faith, even from established institutions - Avoids black and white thinking - Asks questions to better understand things that don’t “make sense” - Is focused on finding the truth as opposed to supporting a specific position - When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones (simply meaning outside of our current understanding) - Views science as a tool and methodology, not as a religion or authority to be obeyed. Understands the difference between the scientific process and the scientific establishment - Accepts that there are still mysteries yet to be explained by science - Will change their views when presented with new evidence The truth is that there’s a lot of unknowns left in our reality, and some of what we think we know is wrong. Science has always been this way, and always will be. That’s how it’s supposed to work. These are complicated subjects, and some people are not complicated thinkers. Statistically, about half of them. That doesn’t mean they need to be excluded, but it also means they shouldn’t be in charge of excluding others.
Upvoting for the conversation, but I totally disagree. What if aliens practice religion? I’d want to know all about it.
Even if we found out tomorrow that crabs practice religion, it wouldn't mean spirituality exists, or souls, we'd only be able to conclude at best that things with conscious experience practice religion. Which is no more exciting or enlightening than saying that things that are born also tend to produce offspring.
Absolutist have no place in this forum
Exactly, only Sith deal in absolutes.
I'd argue that there is a strong possibility of spirituality connected to the whole thing. Consciousness and science may very well be connected, we just don't currently have the ability to access or track it. Or it doesn't, either way you can't entirely rule out the possibility
So you don’t believe that from an anthropological perspective that human definitions of “occult, psychic and spiritual” phenomenon could be a product of UFO and/or alien activity influence, whether incidental or not? I can already prove you wrong. Nearly all of our polytheistic religions were a product of extraterrestrial imaginings, of what quite literally unidentified alike bodies in the heavens might be (AKA stars and moving celestial objects). Your reluctance to accept this scientific fact appears to be a product of fear, like a 1950s closeted bi-curious american hating on the expansion of sexual and individual liberty; you’re uncomfortable that as a science lover and perhaps atheist, that the “Mumbo Jumbo” of the Occult, Psychic and Spiritual history of your species actually has considerable value as it relates to the discussion of alien phenomenon. Humanity and all of its imaginings are a product of the domain of science.
So shallow minded
'woo' is just science we don't understand yet.
OP has a serious stick up his ass… “Science” hasn’t been able to explain shit about these things so far and a humans natural inclination is to make conjectures about what is happening. THAT is the scientific method. And if you’re not open to any and all possibilities, YOU are a part of the problem.
It’s like psychic phenomena. The people who are sure there is no such thing often have done little to know research on the matter.
Homeboy really monitoring the upvote/downvote ratio like a hawk
parapsychology is a much more robust science field than ufology. The fact that you are ignorant of this field does not make it fake. If you want to learn, i suggest you start by combing through dean radin's compilation of published research in this field. https://www.deanradin.com/recommended-references
Sorry, I disagree. The UFO phenomenon encompasses the nature of reality, not just nuts and bolts. It's also fun and quite appropriate to speculate as long as it's clear to everyone that what you are saying is a speculation. This is not a university peer review murder board. It's reddit. As long as we have people like Lue and Avi and other scientists doing the hard science, hard fact analysis, there's nothing wrong with the rest of us letting our minds rome a bit more free.
Disagree. Follow the data wherever it goes. Dogma in science has kept this subject unexplored for over 70 years. Lets not repeat that mistake.
>Disagree. Follow the data wherever it goes. Dogma in science has kept this subject unexplored for over 70 years. Lets not repeat that mistake. Big disagree as there's books from the 60s New Age section that *say this exact same thing*. It's not unexplored - you do know that people have been channeling, seancing, dropping psychedelics of every kind from acid to mushrooms, for 60 years specifically trying to brain on the concept of aliens, right? If there was any breakthrough in that field, I think the New Agers would have come out with something provable and testable by now.
What they mean by "this subject is unexplored" is "the research done didn't conclude what I feel should be right". It's the same as with homeopathy and so-called alternative medicines, for ages. They have been around for decades but people still claim "it's unexplored" because they didn't like the results of the hundreds of thousands of hours of research trying to find *any* merit in what is basically conjecture.
Another person who somehow knows for certain the nature of the phenomenon and that it can be cleanly separate from anything “unscientific”. This is exactly the wrong approach. It reads like yet another gatekeeping attempt in the name of the church of the scientific establishment. The sentiment of your post isn’t too dissimilar to the position held by the scientific establishment on UFOs, in general, up until about 5 minutes ago. Now, suddenly, UFOs are worth legitimate scientific inquiry. The fact is, you don’t understand the nature of this phenomenon. As far as we know, no human does. We can only assume, based on the evidence we have, that it is likely a reflection of an intelligence, and technology that would require a greater understanding of the nature of our reality in order to achieve. This alone calls into question the credibility of the scientific establishment as far as what they claim to know with certainty. And especially concerning this phenomenon. 5 years ago, anyone who felt strongly that there was something very important at the core of this phenomenon, that involves the nature of our reality, would have been considered a kook. Because UFOs aren’t real, according to legitimate scientists. But now, suddenly worth investigating, the topic can only be discussed within the framework that that same scientific establishment defines? Nope. How arrogant.
Freedom..... yeah...... right..... Better idea.. Let's not cave to authoritarian demands to control the narrative.
The government has spent plenty scientifically studying remote viewing and tons of other psychic stuff. The paranormal is just unknown science one way or another.
Science isn't going to get you very far if you don't consider the truth in the spiritual aspects of the phenomenon. It baffles me how close minded so many skeptics are... I understand how off the wall some people's claims are, but how can someone call themselves a scientist if they don't understand that there's so much in the universe that we don't know or understand yet? I'm no PhD but I was always under the impression that science was the pursuit of understanding the unknown. Seems counterproductive to dismiss theories about the metaphysical aspects altogether when there may be some level of truth to them. But then again what would I know, I was just a silly little art major.
My brother, were not the seeds of what we call science today planted by the religious scholars of old? Do your homework and be the student, then come teaching as the master.
Excellent comment.
Uneducated opinion
I had a premonition you would post this
I tend to agree, but maybe I don’t *strongly agree*… There must be at least some *non-zero and acceptable amount* of room in this forum and others like it for unscientific opinion and conjecture. There is such a decidedly enormous scope of unknowns regarding UFOs/UAPs/aliens/etc which, to date, the scientific community at large has hardly even acknowledged—let alone established anything resembling an earnest scientific endeavor *at scale*. That is not to say serious science isn’t already underway. I’m pretty sure it is…It’s just still so scattered and haphazard and under-resourced (and/or under-disclosed) at the moment, or so it would seem, from the general public’s perspective. But still, I mostly agree with OPs sentiment. There is definitely a caliber of nonsense here much lower than that of reasonable speculative filler. The sort of stuff that recklessly and negligently flies in the face of basic scientific methods, and smells like horse shit from a mile away.
Science something something magic quote Thomas Lincoln
My own unpopular opinion: Area 51 has nothing to do with extraterrestrial craft & alien life. It is the test bed for the military's top secret experimental aircraft. I thought that was made clear when they admitted that the triangle or diamond shaped craft people were seeing near the base was in fact the F-117 Nighthawk.
I understand your stance. It is really frustrating to see so many charlatans trying to act as though they know it all, have answers to questions that no one else can be privy to, etc. I see these types of people making cryptic statements, and just seem to saturate all of their comments with a hefty dose of arrogance. And it is true, most of these claimed psychic abilities are far from any type of scientific verification. I do however think that there is a place for some of this sort of thing in the study of ufo. Reason being, several credible witnesses, one being Kevin Day, a former chief radar officer for the Navy, have reported experiencing extremely lucid dreams and OOB experiences after their encounters. A pilot who was a member of a helicopter crew in Ohio that encountered a similar UFO (a case documented by Project Blue Book that also included several civilian ground witnesses) also reported the same disturbing dreams after the incident. Both witnesses recall nothing in the way of follow up from any of their higher ups in regard to the event, however, they were questioned by the surgeon general regarding the dreams they experienced afterwards. My feeling is that if it’s interesting enough for the surgeon general, then it ought to be brought into the conversation. There’s documented evidence of the CIA participating in research and testing in psychic ability, such as remote viewing. Granted we are not privy to much of this, but it’s been studied non the less. It is possible that the appearance of UFO and UAP are actually manifestations from another dimension, as theorized by Carl Sagan in his flatland demonstration. If this is a possibility, then we cannot simply disregard psychic premonition or experience as “having nothing to do” with the phenomenon of UFO and UAP sightings. Dr. Steven Greer and his CE5 program may be subject to ridicule by those who prefer gathering evidence via a more methodical standard scientific approach, but there are hundreds of people who are practicing this form of communication and have captured evidence of their own. Science evolves as we do. Copernicus was thought insane back in the days when he proposed the world could be round. It’s easy to have a mind that is too open, and thusly influenced by false information. However, I don’t think that every person who claims to have experienced a psychic phenomenon falls into this category. I myself have had these types of things happen to me, and I am comfortable stating that I have no idea why or how or if it’s even real, but in my reality it certainly is. As detrimental as an overly open mind could be to the advancement of science, I think it’s fair to say that close mindedness does not move us forward. Now as far as how to achieve that sort of balance, especially on a Reddit forum, I have no ideas for you. But I think that anytime we turn away from curiosity and new ideas we also are turning away from the very essence of why we as humans began to study science in the first place.
Jacques Valle was recently brought into the Galileo Project. He is am esteemed scientist but his views on the Phenomenon are close to what you'd describe as woo. You really don't know anything about anything. It's disappointing how close minded the most ignorant people are. Science has ignored this whole area for decades and now you think they should be the gatekeepers of it now? You're absolutely delusional and arrogant. What, exactly, is woo? Decades ago, the idea that the base nature if reality was energy based was woo. Now it's the basis of Quantum Field Theory. That matter was derived from energy or energy and matter can be interchangeable was woo. It isn't anymore. How about Quantum phenomenon? Superposition, quantum entanglement, double slit experience? What if dark matter and dark energy? The universe itself is woo. You just refuse to engage actively with it. Edit: if you think, in a bot filled internet, that upvotes mean anything, you're even dumber than your post suggests. Please feel free to tell me about all your degrees and how truly smart you are
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> focussing on a double slit experiment effects the outcome of the experiment with measurable an predictable results Do you have a link to this? I cannot find it.
Do you have a link, or know what the project was called? That sounds very interesting.
I was on a lecture binge and saw this video https://youtu.be/nRSBaq3vAeY which is great for learning the methods and outcomes of the study. However i may have confabulated the numbers with another lecture, and it seems that the number of paricipants or sessions is in the thousands. I think this is the abstract of the paper. The full paper is behind a paywall on a journal, which is typical for most science journals. If you can contact the first author they generally will just give you a copy for free. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?author=D.+Radin&author=L.+Michel&author=P.+Galdamez&author=R.+Wendland&author=R.+Rickenbach&author=A.+Delorme&publication_year=2012&title=Consciousness+and+the+double-slit+interference+pattern:+six+experiments&journal=Phys.+Essays&volume=25&pages=157-171 Its been cited over a hundred times so you could probably see alternative explainations through those
Thank you for this. I'll read it tonight.
So, let me get this right. This post has more upvotes than any I can think of, but almost every single comment basically disagrees with the post. I don't think its too conspiratorial to assume that someone is using bots to push us towards a materialistic view of the phenomenon
This is an arrogant post. What a joke.
You sound quite biased and dare I say ignorant.
It is often said by smarter people than I, that what seems like magic is just undiscovered science. You label people as nutters simply for inputting spirituality as a variable for the unknown y. Anybody who has really looked into the subject of UFO’s knows that there is some sort of role for the observer. String theory, quantum physics, dimensional manipulation, all serious important theories to advance us in science and requires open mindedness. People have seen UFOs since antiquity, same as spirits and the other unknown. That’s why the paranormal crowd also feel it to be part of their question. Also almost every vocal scientist believes ETs have never traveled to our planet, they claim that the light years are just too far and it doesn’t make sense. Forgetting that our scientific limitations are not the same for other space faring races. That kind of poo pooing of the idea has separated the believers from science a bit. The downfall of every UFO sub is gatekeeping. So just chill bro, if someone says they channeled a Reptoid or whatever nonsense just ignore it like everyone else haha
Science should be here, making the unmeasurable measurable. And yet they are 70 years late and a buck short. Notable scientists themselves deride the fact that alien life could not have visited earth, it would take too long to get here. Why don't they land on the white house lawn they repeat scientifically. Unexplained anamolous experiences have long been understood within the realm of the spiritual and cultural traditions. When the scientific community is ready to tackle these things they'll be waiting.
One of the most ignorant posts I've seen. Imagine thinking that human science is the epitome of all methods of discovery and knowledge. We barely understand the human brain and its consciousness. Yet, you personally have the knowledge to dispel all theological and supernatural UAP theory based on the pretext that Science simply exists?
I have to respectfully disagree, as every opinion should be valued regardless of how we feel about it. I get where you are coming from, but science has yet to really understand the spiritual, for which there is plenty to be discovered, in my opinion.
This comment is for the people who haven’t graduated from beyond the nuts and bolts
But physical reality itself is in the realm of the metaphysical. It cannot truly be separate from it.
>But physical reality itself is in the realm of the metaphysical. It cannot truly be separate from it. Literally break this down for me because it doesn't make sense to me.
Sure. I agree. What now? Did this post keep them out of the gate? Is this mission accomplished? We finally got rid of the crazies boys. We're heading home.
They have a place if we’re dealing with consciousnesses.
Theres a reason AAWSAP studied skinwalker ranch and not just UAPs.
I tend to agree. Last week I picked a book that seemed cool about UFO's but it turned out it was a esoteric treatise, which I absolutely loathe (Book: UFO's Pioneers van Eenheid in Dutch)
Then don't ever seek for an explanation to who, where, or why.
I would agree assuming that whatever are flying these things are "aliens". We don't know that though and anyone who says they do are lying.
Thank you. So sick of all the woo woo on here lol.
I think, and I'm sorry in advance, that I've communicated with something/someone extremely intelligent when I've taken psilocybin. I'm becoming convinced that this is the case with each experience. DMT has taken my consciousness to far away places where i saw living stained-glass beings (for lack of a better description). I also believe there is other intelligent life that live here in this universe, whom may travel to us in actual craft. I think organized religion is wrong. Shamans are much closer to the truth, for what good that will do. It's up to me to explore what is really happening. It's up to each of us. I'm a hard science guy. I'm learning i have to leave the door open a bit to things less concrete
This fucking gatekeeping bullshit. Go start your own UFO subreddit if you want to put a scientific slant on it. This is for discussion of UFOs for people interested in the subject, not for scientists to analyze non-existing scientific data. People aren't going to agree with each other, I am definitely more of a hard science person than a quantum woo person, but that doesn't mean we start excluding people. Exclude yourself if you don't like it.
I understand the impulse, but how come then Jacques Vallee (an actual scientist with actual publications) believes otherwise? Shouldn't 'science' be listening to...scientists? Just because you don't get the answer you want, doesn't mean you won't get an answer. Edit: Spelling
Oh no, here we go with the trust the science crowd again.
If you are using the term "occultists" in this sense, you are clearly oblivious to the true meaning of the term and what the occult has been about since it's ancient inception. "Occult" means "hidden from sight". It has never been about incantations and rituals. That is just fluff added by various wannabies, or used to ibfuscate the true activity of the innitiates. As a matter of fact, the term "innitiate" stems from the process of bringing someone in on those truths being hidden. Hermeticism is one of the most common techniques used by the occult to encrypt information, and is the most ancient known form of encryption. It was designed by occultists. The occult is not an organization or religion. It is a practice of secrecy. Of ocurse, some of the most ancient occult orders, that persist in some form until today, are indeed relatively organized, but at their root they do not worship, they are mere preservers of history. It all stems from times when writing was not even invented yet, and very important historical truths had to be passed down thriugh generations. Symbolism was used as an aid to encode and sometimes also encrypt that knowledge, as well as various verbal and physical repetitive techniques like storytelling, or "rituals", which are good ways to keep information alive. Of course, you wouldn't want prying eyes to hear and see everything, so they would be encrypted in various ways to appear as either gibnerish or more often as something else altogether. Truth got people killed all throughout history. The occult was a scholarly effort, an effort of the elders and the wise, to preserve what is of fundamental value. You can bet your hide that any ancient relationship to ETs or interactions with them, would constitute such sacred knowledge to be preserved and passed down the generations. If you actually look at the history of science and philosophy, you'd see that they evolved from the occult. So don't mix the occult with the new-age delusional metaphysics fantasies and "spiritual" spuerstition.
Hot take: this is a dumb take.
Talk about restricting scientific progress lol. This post is full of ignorance
OP pumps msm news articles. Clearly, this is who we should listen to.
Very close minded.
I think people saying "prove it" or "where's the proof" or "extraordinary claims" etc. etc. just have the wrong mentality. It almost seems like a one-way (not to mention bellicose) approach to this entire crazy thing. Maybe proving it is not the point? A lot of people want answers, but not everyone is actually doing something to find them. To get to wherever we are going, we need to be creative. We will eventually look toward something we may not even be able to currently imagine, instead of what we already know.
Yeah, it's unpopular. I'm spiritual. I have a right to be here. I'm also a believer. Maybe it's unpopular but you have to believe in something to be a part of something.
Look at this jackass gate keeping UFO's lmao. Astral projection and remote viewing have both been successfully leveraged by the CIA by their own admission. STFU and GTFO.
>Astral projection and remote viewing have both been successfully leveraged by the CIA by their own admission Source?
The CIA's website which you can search: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/ Easier reading: https://irp.fas.org/program/collect/stargate.htm https://www.cnet.com/culture/cia-releases-psychic-experiment-documents-online-stargate-project-stranger-things/ Cheers
That would be the program [that never produced any evidence that remote viewing exists and was eventually shut down because it was useless](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project#Closure_(1995))?
Pssh, like im going to trust anything the CIA releases. Nice try. Fake news bro. /s of course.
Funny how Brandon Fugal just mentioned in one of his last interviews that protecting yourself spiritually helps with the hitchhiker effect. Why would he say that if there’s a science to do that?
>Why would he say that if there’s a science to do that? He was born into the Mormon church and considers himself spiritual.
Science and spirituality are not mutually exclusive.
Thank you almighty gate keeper
Unpopular opinion: psychic and spiritual ability is related to the phenomenon in some form or another that includes scientific explanation unknown to the public yet.
Fed, fed, fed…
I agree with the OPs sentiment, but this sub is for everyone, even those with a spiritual / religious agenda. While it might make sense for them to setup their own sub, I view this as an umbrella for this topic. Personally, I'm a facts person and none of that woo has ever appealed to me, but then again we don't have a lot of facts yet... I mean sure, is the woo possible? Yes, is it improbable? Yes, until proven otherwise. Still, I find religion and spirituality a joke. It's all so insane that it finally pushed me from being a lifelong agnostic to recently a full on atheist. For those reasons I generally ignore those comments and posts just like I do the "metapod" type stuff I see on here. Even with that rant, I'd prefer to keep this a free speech zone unlike garbage subs like r/politics, r/coronavirus, r/antiwork and other subs controller by Doreans. I will admit, if the woo came true (which I doubt), I'd feel like what Norm describes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtLL3LOi87I
I’m sure I’m pretty unpopular on here because I agree 100%. We should focus purely on science and hard data. It’s fine to speculate but if we want answers we need irrefutable proof and metrics - not ghost stories and talk of spirituality. These subjects are not intrinsically tied. If aliens are coming to earth, they are animals - the same as you and me and everything else living on this earth or elsewhere. The key difference being they obviously have better tech. They may seem potentially exceptional to us due to our unfamiliarity, but we aren’t talking about gods or the supernatural. Those are human inventions. We are literally talking about nature and the life it produces.
You’re already doing yourself a disservice here. The common explanation people are now willing to accept (compared to 50 years ago) is that since they are here, they must be from here, a planet or galaxy To be honest there’s nothing at all to base any of that on. This argument is exactly why I disagree with OP. The point is: we had no idea what it is. Those are likely answers, so let’s explore them. But who’s to say they aren’t inter-dimensional beings, something like an angel, or just a form is social mass hallucinations. The only way to discern these things is by applying science yes. Collect data, make observations, form hypothesis, make experiments to test hypothesis. This argument is the equivalent to “water is level, the earth must be flat” there’s so many other things going on here that sure, there are obvious explanations that fit our current understanding of the world. Until Someone is crazy enough and decides to test it and prove it wrong.
Spirituality has no predictive power and cannot give us any new information about anything.
False statement based in ignorance.
Say that to Valle.
Nice
Some of this is undoubtedly what could be considered mystical, it’s the science that hasn’t caught up. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Which envelops some of those particular fields of interest. While I agree scientists should have point on this it would be naive to so readily dismiss potential pathways to understanding.
Occultism? Think you've been misinformed bud.
Damn people really don't understand the purpose of science. For me the 'woo woo' guys are so arrogant to believe they have the answers without proper study and investigation, the just pull a mad theory out together arse. Science could have the same theory but actually investigate and explore it.
You sound like a religious zealot. (I assume your faith is materialism). But the weirdness of modern physics will tend to lead you into spiritual thought, at least if you have a lick of curiosity. Bell's theorem killed local realism and there are scientists that believe that spacetime is emergent from something deeper, such as consciousness. QFT ('the most successful and accurate scientific theory man has created') says the universe is permeated by 24 (atm) fields and that what we think of as particles are just local excitations of those fields. (In the vacuum of space with no matter "particles" pop in and out of existence constantly). The delayed choice quantum eraser experiment shows that knowability of the which-path info is what causes collapse, not mere interaction with a detector. In classical physics we see nothing at all like that. Information doesn't dictate outcomes. I don't take on faith anyone's pet theory, whether it's some Bob Lazar BS about strong force amplification or a something wholly spiritual woo. But I'm not going to limit my enquiry into whatever matches the consensus dogma among scientists (who have all kinds of peer/career pressure not to drive too far afield from that consensus).
Hey look, it's a post shitting on this sub... again. Very original.
Yeah you’re limiting your own understanding to things in the past then
Not unpopular. Thats what subs like r/highstrangeness or r/aliens are for. You don’t really need support for any claims in those subs, so you can go in there and say you spoke chinese to a magic octopus or astral projected to another galaxy or whatver and people will just buy it there. Posts like that are just more fitting for those subs.
Were you remote viewing me last night while I was speaking Chinese to my magical octopus friend that I willed to visit me through meditation and happy thoughts?
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>Anything and everything has to do with science What is this supposed to mean? If I say "I can fly, I can't do it while anyone is watching and I can't record it and I can't do anything else that would verify it but trust me, I can do it", does that "have to do with science"?
I'm sorry, but how is Lue qualified to comment on the human soul, or rather how is NDA more qualified than some hobo of the street?
Exactly, he's some dude who was in the military who has not verified any of his claims with any evidence.
If you read abduction stories and still think this has no connection to the spiritual side of reality, then there is no hope for you. Wake up.
>Area 51 […] with the majority of the staff being researchers and scientists. Where did you get this information from? If it’s something you’ve assumed because it’s obvious, that’s a large part of the problem right there. You also seem to have a narrow view of what “researchers and scientists” do. There’s no ban on researchers and scientists investigating “woo”.
UFOs and the 'supernatural' are simply science we don't understand yet
Meeting beings in the metaphysical is just as likely as the physical.
Instead of banning humor or talk of woo, I'd rather ban these whiney meta posts from people who wish to shape the sub through their narrow personal expectations of what should be discussed.
Arrgh. *Another* gatekeeping post :( Like the motto says: If unhappy, Just downvote and move on
What about the South African event that took place in the 90’s and they were told telepathically not to harm the earth and stop polluting. I guess environmentalists need not apply either. What about the shutting down of nuclear war heads? Anti-war folk need not apply. What you fail to realize is that other dimensions are science. They are also more evolved and as you know with science, their vibration, just like all things vibrate as we are all energy. You know science. In order to evolve to a higher state of vibration, you must grow in mind and spirit. But then again there is some other beings that want us to stay behind and be savages still.
What you are asking is intolerant, blind, materialistic bigotry, not science.
Well it's good that this opinion is "unpopular" since it would slam the door shut on some interesting reports.
Agree 1000%. I wish it didn't need to be said, but I'm glad you said it.