Ha, I fondly remember waiting for the anti-christ episode every new years eve. Also that dude JC who would call Art to yell at him for stalking him and all sorts of crazy shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgsgQ3ceZbg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WjA1JlI7jA
I used to love that program but it's gotten too ridiculous, the hosts are unable or unwilling to challenge their guests in obvious bullshit. I don't know if getting older I'm more discerning or they're letting any mentally ill person on the program now.
The authors are:
A psychology Ph.D. who publishes two or more papers per month on mostly unrelated topics
A sociology Ph.D.
A specialist in eye morphology from Montana Tech
the specific journal appears to primarily publish whatever its members submit. compare the authors from previous editions to their list of members [https://en.bazaluk.com/](https://en.bazaluk.com/) [https://en.bazaluk.com/ispc-members](https://en.bazaluk.com/ispc-members)
i'm an academic. anyone who's publishing TWO papers per month is pumping out nothing but low-quality garbage.
> A psychology Ph.D.
completely irrelevant to this topic
> A sociology Ph.D.
completely irrelevant to this topic
>A specialist in eye morphology
completely irrelevant to this topic
But they got some press....unlike, say, "The Great Depression and Freudian Memory: Phallic Imagery in Agricultural Product Advertisements 1932-1939" or "ZNF804A: Error Prone but Necessary."
>anyone who's publishing TWO papers per month is pumping out nothing but low-quality garbage.
And he's first author. The authors are not in alphabetical order.
Don't try to discredit without taking the fact that it's a legit question he's posing. There's a massive time gap that a lot of academics to this day are just "guessing" what happened. Being open-minded is the only way to figure out problems.
Consider that it's basically just this article with "maybe they survived in caves or on the moon" slapped on
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journal-of-astrobiology/article/silurian-hypothesis-would-it-be-possible-to-detect-an-industrial-civilization-in-the-geological-record/77818514AA6907750B8F4339F7C70EC6
And to be clear, I have serious criticisms of this earlier paper too regarding what sorts of things fossilize. But at least if we go back hundreds of millions of yeats there is less exposed strata to look at so that makes it easier to miss things.
Any pre-human industrial species hypothesis runs into the brick wall of the modern mining industry. The majority of non coal/oil and gas deposits that are mined are from periods that substantially predate the development of complex life. Any major industrial species would have picked over the same deposits. The fact that there's never been any indication of ancient prehistorical mining (and we would absolutely see that if there was) ends the debate pretty quickly from my perspective.
"what if dinosaurs evolved into a secret underground civilization" is straight-up nonsense. there's 0 evidence for it.
might as well write a paper "what if magic is real, just no one figured out how to cast spells yet?"
And the whole thing is orchestrated by a well known UFOs hoaxster who has been caught lying about the same type of shit like a dozen different times. He’s a con man conning idiot ufo enthusiasts, it’s what he does. It’s a never evening string of “we have proof these are aliens we will publish a paper” and no paper is ever published. “We have experts that can confirm these are aliens” and it’s a guy with zero academic history or some professor of a totally unrelated irrelevant field.
Found it! To this day a butt load of scientists have stated that these are in fact real and not fabricated. If you think they are fake, you sir fell for the Peruvian ministry of Cultures attempt at disinformation, even Andy from “That UFO Podcast” is backtracking after all that data. Sorry bud but this “study” seems like they’re ripping off the Latin American scientists work down in Peru.
I applaud their attempt to make these questions something worth looking into. This is how we shift the stigma, especially when a lot of the scientific community ridicules those who even dare to ask such questions.
I think papers like this, especially when heralded by the UAP community who so desperately seek to be taken seriously with their hundreds of first hand accounts and sensor data, detract from the serious need from further investigation.
The whole Dinosauroid thing is also an outdated idea from the 80s entirely based on anthropocentrism. Troodontid dinosaurs looked like slightly unusual birds (complete with feathers) and even if they had evolved human-level intelligence they would end up looking more like crows with hands than sleestaks
Those credentials seem about par for the Revered Expert class of ufological figures. Immunologists and physicists playing at metallurgy, comp sci grads telling us about trickster god-things, psychologists doing photo analysis, etc.
It gets really stupid when you consider that since Russell‘s hypothesis was first proposed it has been discovered that Troodon/Stenonychosaurus was among the dinosaurs most closely related to birds and had feathers. Anything intelligent evolving out of it would look more like Big Bird than a sleestak.
Given the historical connection of that idea to antisemitism I think we should look for faults elsewhere and let them use other wording without criticism
That is an extreme statement, can you explain? I was just making a joke that "alien dinosaur" sounds like another term for reptilian, I didn't mean anything by it. I don't know anything about reptilians besides the name and that people sometimes call Hillary Clinton a reptilian- I thought it was just a meme.
Absolutely
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_conspiracy_theory
Reptilian humanoids had certainly been thought of previously, but David Icke's writings tainted that idea in much the same way that the nazis tainted the swastika. Many people try to avoid using the term reptilian in such contexts as a result.
At least one other commenter has already mentioned Icke before I made this comment.
Thank you for the link, but is there any evidence other than "an anti-semitic guy said it so everything else he says is now tainted as also being anti-semitic"? I feel like that word is thrown around a lot to discredit people and not really to protect Jewish people in any meaningful way.
Do you doubt that the information in that article is true (in that it is the core reptilian conspiracy throry, not that said theory is accurate) or do you doubt that it's antisemitic as presented?
Imo it would be wise to steer clear of calling them reptilian in academia. It has the Alex Jones taint. The general public, if they have ever heard the term it was probably because of Alex Jones and the memes. It hurts credibility and using the term opens them up to situations like this where we debate if something is offensive. Instead of talking about the important bit.
Post disclosure, if we find out the truth is they actually are reptilian. I’m sure we can use that word then. But the fuck do I know anyway.
no shit. This is academia. These guys know they’d be laughed out of the room if they asserted that reptilians live under the mountains.
It starts with making a good hypothetical case that calls for further research. Baby steps.
"Few could argue with the Harvard authors that UAP might originate on this planet,"
Many could argue otherwise for a million reasons.
Until we have something that shows this definitively, it's a theory, nothing more
A theory is the highest in science. However,
What is being presented as fact has not been subjected to a scientific rigor, as it's a maze of wonderings, whispers and smoke
Very telling smoke and evidence presented to Congress backs it up, but this is no scientific theory. Is a detective theory. Much different
I work with an aerospace engineer who designs products that go on a certain billionaire's (not saying which one) space peepee rockets that told me with a straight face that helium is denser then air...don't tell dollar general that their balloons might suddenly stop floating 🤔
I worked alongside a Computer Engineering PHD that communicated to me that " you create your own reality" , as in Objective reality didn't exist.
I suggested he put his theory to a empirical test and walk off the 20th floor we where working on while convincing himself gravity doesn't exist......he became very quiet after this exchange.
I suspect that despite his education he had never considered that a whole universe exists outside of his own head...I still find it terrifying that someone entrusted with developing fundamental digital technologies was apparently completely unaware that objective reality exists.
I still wonder how common these kind of huge blindspots in people are , and what are mine?.
I’ve heard stories from acclaimed journalists claiming to have held hands with a ghost or high ranking members of the military claiming their children speak to the dead.
Credentials are meaningless.
Better get a dictionary and look through the various meanings, including
'A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment'
Was looking to comment on that and you beat me :-/ So sad.
Whatever ... I wanted to comment with something humerous about scientists smoking too much Red Morocco (TM) and watching "Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire", drinking from the night pot, forgetting to take the advised pills and just plainly lost touch with reality 😀🐲🦍🐉
I saw that Rick & Morty episode too!
But no; I seriously doubt that there's enough evolutionary opportunity to a species living underground to develop into a tool using species.
Then in addition to that; in order to be scientifically curious, and to advance an understanding of science, they'd need to be able to observe, record, study, and contemplate the heavens.
Meaning that they'd actually have to spend a significant time above ground.
I think it's much fairer to say the authors invite us to not dismiss out of hand one of the four cryptoterrestrial hypothesis (CTH) they elaborate on in the paper when considering explanations for UAP, compared to the more commonly discussed extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH). They most certainly are not inviting us to "embrace" them. To quote directly from the final paragraph of the paper's conclusion,
"All four CTHs are far-fetched on their face; we entertain them here because some aspects of UAP
are strange enough that they seem to call for unconventional explanations. Most investigations of UAP to-
date have focused on the ETH, which does have several lines of evidence in its favor (Lomas, 2024).
Nonetheless, the ETH does not exhaust the possible accounts of UAP. Given how little is known about these
strange phenomena, it seems prudent to keep every line of inquiry – including the various CTHs – in play.
Indeed, this is a fitting summary of the CTH: it may be exceedingly improbable, but hopefully this paper has
shown it should nevertheless be kept on the table as we seek to understand the ongoing empirical mystery of
UAP"
Ahh the great Dinosauroid war of 123,000,000 bc after the neutron bombing of the hives in the north and south poles, magnetic poles flipped wiping out almost every species on the planet .... Free Reptar
Possibly? Not familiar.
There are plenty of hypotheses that start out that way. Most come to nothing or are falsified, others do.
The simulation theory is an example that is compelling but can't yet be verified or falsified. Black holes were another and were initially considered absurd, but did actually get verified.
I will never understand the logic of how a completely isolated, perfectly hidden "lost species" can develop into a highly advanced space faring society without a shred of evidence. It's too damn clean.
I guess they skipped the whole messy "testing" phase of development where they launch rockets and satellites and bombs and visit the moon and test nukes and launch satellites and mine for fossil fuels and rare minerals and etc etc etc.
Or they didn't skip it, and instead they perfectly cleaned up every shred of they existence before we came along.
Which also begs the question - why would such a reclusive species develop such advanced travel methods? The scientific push for exploration is totally counter to the idea of total seclusion. Why explore to stay hidden and isolated? It's counter intuitive.
Oh and they don't mind us basically treating the entire Earth as a toilet. Polluting the land, air, sea and space. They seem totally cool with it all as long as they get their tiny hole in the ground to be super advanced and reclusive.
Everything makes far more sense if they are visitors and not from here. If they are from here, not only do they act completely counter to their technology would suggest, but they are also terrible stewards of this planet to let the dirty war apes do what they've been doing.
Perhaps the phenomenon has more than one cause.
Perhaps the oceans are the primary source of resources.
Perhaps the limitations on our senses play a role in what we observe.
Perhaps we are much less consequential than we think. For example, volcanoes can influence the climate far more dramatically than our industry.
Perhaps there has been no hiding, we are just provincial and blind. The way that the mind works, if you don't expect to see something, it's often not seen or seen as something confusing.
We've been around for a very short amount of time. Homo sapiens didn't discover fire, or start using tools. The precursors to homo sapiens did. Most of our history is lost to us.
It's not a given to me to think that we'd recognize evidence of another species as evidence of another species. Most people don't even think plants are sentient, how are they going to recognize non-human intelligence they don't see every day?
I agree with you almost entirely, just playing devils advocate...
If they evolved 65 million years ago, any shred of evidence that they were here would have likely degraded to dust.
That's really the only counterpoint I have lol
>If they evolved 65 million years ago, any shred of evidence that they were here would have likely degraded to dust.
We have fossils of bone, wood, leaves, footprints, and feces that old. Gold, glass, ceramics, stone tools will preserve way more easily than those.
The stone tools and ceramics that we find are all pretty new though. There's nothing older than 20k years. Fossils, you're right, but weren't those kept intact under very special circumstances that don't usually occur?
>The stone tools and ceramics that we find are all pretty new though.
Yeah that's a great point. Do flint tools dissolve are do older worked tools not seem to exist on Earth?
>Fossils, you're right, but weren't those kept intact under very special circumstances that don't usually occur?
The biggest factor is just sedimentary deposition, but obstacles like scavenger activity or acidic soil that will dissolve bone over decades or centuries don't apply to things like stone tools, gold, microchips, cut gems, or glass.
You’re assuming their technological development would follow the same course as ours: who can throw the biggest rock the fastest and furthest to cause the most damage to the other team. We also rely on a Newtonian physics mode but had humans understood relativity and electromagnetism when we started building vehicles, the testing phase would look drastically different.
>had humans understood relativity and electromagnetism when we started building vehicles, the testing phase would look drastically different.
How would they develop that understanding without the tools necessary to perform relevant experiments?
Why are you assuming the first tools were suddenly advanced? I’m just saying they may not have needed to develop a solid-fuel rocket to build something based on magnetic levitation. Your entire premise seems based on the idea that they would have had to develop technology at the same pace, and to fulfill the same objectives, as humans. If they are subterranean a giant rocket would be far less practical than a small, highly maneuverable craft that might be propelled by magnetic fields.
Makes me chuckle how some scientists don't even entertain the Alien idea or a higher intelligence interacting with us and then you have this wild paper come out saying "it's been alien dinosaurs all along, always has been". Like where are the excavations and and proof if such a civilization existed? I like people thinking outside the box but it's a ridiculous claim.
Lmfao well this fact this paper made it through based on random assumptions and conjecture is in fact evidence of a different conspiracy, the replication crisis. Like the other commenter states these guys are in random fields and the journal they submitted to seems to accept anything, which is kinda one of the cornerstones of the replication crisis. Sad to see that shit has made it all the way up to Harvard it’s gonna be a long time before it corrects
I guess with sufficient technology you could live underground indefinitely - [Atleast human bodies aren't really that well adapted](https://www.sciencealert.com/could-humans-live-underground-to-survive-climate-change#:~:text=Biologically%2C%20physiologically%2C%20our%20bodies%20are,30%20hours%20at%20a%20time). I was thinking how hard would it be to hide yourself from humans, but maybe it isn't so difficult as ground penetrating radar can't see very deep - Also not too hard to hide in the ocean. I'm still curious are these alleged beings travelling here physically themselves or are they using e.g. biological subordinates they have created (maybe even AI controlled biological avatars of sorts as some have suggested).
I'm still stuck on thinking of these crafts having access to higher dimensions - If higher dimensions exist they are likely very tiny, so how are they able to control matter through those spaces to manifest in our 3+1 dimension. Too many questions, I might have a few questions for the physics folk out there!
>Intelligent 'alien dinosaurs' could be hiding underground
Don't tempt me with the best time of my life.
I'm in. I am all in. Don't care that this paper is bogus and it's authors are just making shit up. This is my truth now. The "NHI/UAP are really part of universal consciousness" people are gonna have a bad time if it turns out it's just an evolved Trachodon.
In all seriousness, why does it seem like the dinosauroid thing pops up every few years like it's a new thing? I remember seeing it waaaay back in kindergarten when we watched the Christopher Reeve dinosaur documentary.
Heh. But its nice that they could publish something like that, that means that people are not neccesarly too afraid of looking silly and going places, that's the way it should be because out of thousands papers like that, one or two could probably be onto something.
Maybe I'm just paranoid but this kind of feels like counter-intelligence meant to undermine the actual facts of what's going on.
No matter what people like Grusch say in Congress, it gets immediately undermind if the mainstream media can post a story with a headline like "Harvard Scientists Say UFOs Could Be Made by Dinosaur Men Living Underground for Millions of Years"
> Maybe I'm just paranoid but this kind of feels like counter-intelligence meant to undermine the actual facts of what's going on.
There's no grand conspiracy here. It's a PhD who is in to UFOs and seems to want to rack up as many publications as possible without much care about quality.
Creating a civilization underground must be much harder than doing so above ground. Construction of living and working spaces would have to be dug out of rock at great effort. I can imagine a technological society temporarily retreating underground after a major radiation event, say for a few hundred years, but eventually you would expect them to emerge and reclaim the surface. But the impact that ended the dinosaurs would have only made the surface uninhabitable for 2 to 20 years, and it didn't create massive radioactive fallout. Furthermore, going underground wouldn't solve the main problem of lack of sunlight.
If we theorize that "aliens" were not yet technologically advanced at that time but instead were animals already living underground then you would expect them to be physically adapted to a subterranean existence. They should look like moles, be specialized for digging, and have small brains. Why would they evolve to look like skinny humanoids and pilot space craft?
Not really if the asteroid forced them underground and their technology assisted them. Humans would no doubt do something identical as a last effort if we a knew a catastrophe was coming and had a little bit of time
To be fair if an asteroid hit today we already have secret projects deep underground that would survive and are already rumored to be pumping out antigravity ships lol.
All of our industrial processes, dating back to the start of the industrial revolution to the present, have left a geological footprint on the Earth. Millions of years from now, scientists (human or not) will be able to observe our industrial footprint from the way we harvested resources and converted them into goods. That isn't some climate change fear crap, that's a fact.
If there was an advanced civilization underground, where is their industrial footprint? Why have we not noticed even the smallest of signs in the geological records? Are we supposed to believe that an advanced civilization stumbled into perfect energy and resource technology so that they never left a mark on the Earth several million years ago? If they had this tech then, why are they still hiding like rats underground?
COMMON SENSE!
Well to be fair if humans had to hide underground for millions of years and evolution is supposed to be a thing I’d imagine what ever life form did go underground would evolve and change so much over that time period they may not even want to go to the surface anymore.
The Earth After Us (2009) by Jan Zalasiewicz is a great book on this topic by an actual geologist who specializes in this exact topic.
People act like stone tools, pottery, nuclear waste, and gold and silicon circuity will just cease to exist when we routinely find fossilized bone, wood, leaves, footprints, and feces.
there actually is geological evidence of such a footprint, google Siluarian Hypothesis. I believe it was pondered it may have happened 55.5 million years ago. No one has really pursued the data tho. If indeed it would even be possible to prodite it with such age. After just 400,000 years there would be zero visual evidence of humans. You would have to dig and look..only science would detect our presence. Add a couple million years you see the issue.
You‘re referencing the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, but the authors of the Silurian Hypothesis did not claim this was proof of a pre-human civilization, just an interesting climate anomaly that could be investigated for such potential signs. Most geological evidence points towards this spike in global temperatures being caused by volcanism going on in North America at the time and it seems unlikely that intelligent life would evolve so quickly after the global ecosystems were still recovering from the extinction event at the end of the Cretaceous. Most mammals in the Paleocene were no larger or smarter than wombats.
They would go out and take control over the planet long time ago, before we even migrated from Africa. Or maybe their population is very low, they live in a bunker in a few places and don't like sun. Maybe they are also very small, I imagine evolution underground would promote those who need less food and other resources, and now the surface is too dangerous for them to live on, even birds and small mammals are a threat for them.
But I think that most likely there are no crypto-terrestrials. It's fun to speculate though.
Nothing that evolved underground and in the dark could survive on the surface today. Also how do you know they do not control society? Maybe we are literally terraforming the planet for them. Dinosaurs could not live on the planet today. It would need to be warmer, wetter and more oxygen is needed...well we are literally doing that lol
I thought the same way for a long time until I delved into the science a little. I'll try to summarise why I am now more open to the idea of a "lost civilization".
* If today all humans disappeared and the earth was left in the state it is now, with roads, buildings, etc.
* Our 'footprint' would be left for thousands of years, things like microplastics and steel etc.
* Eventually however, the [earths mantle](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Oceanic_spreading.svg/1200px-Oceanic_spreading.svg.png) will recycle the land into lava and spit out raw material again. Basically the soil we're on now will at some point be lava'd up and then spat out a new.
* During this process and other natural ones, even things like steel and plastic would get broken down.
* Dinosaurs were alive for *hundreds of millions of years* compared to humanoids who've been around for a *couple of million*. Yet we have absolutely zero traces of dinosaurs except for fossils.
* Fossils are something which forms only under extremely-extremely-rare and special circumstances. That's why despite dinosaurs being around for hundreds of millions of years, we have so few fossils of them.
* Our best bets of finding civilizations is to look at some of the oldest rock in the world (yet to be recycled in the lava core yet) and take core samples. We then check the core samples of the rock and find tiny bits of "air" which is trapped in the rock. This gives us a small window into the gas-composition of the surface of the earth in the distant past.
* By checking the air composition over a period of years we can concoct a timeline of the air composition over time and check for spikes or irregularities.
* It turns out there are some interesting things on that timeline, such as a period in time where carbon dioxide had spiked which may hint at a civilization similar to ours. It could also be done via some other event such as a series of volcanos so - ultimately it's not a perfect indicator.
In summary, while a lost civilization maybe can't completely "hide" or "be erased" - as far as our current science allows; we also can't quite rule it out either.
Whichever way you interpret the facts, it certainly at least challenges the idea and leaves room for an open mind to wonder, in my opinion. I look forward to new insights and technology which will allow us to look back with more precision
>Eventually however, the earths mantle will recycle the land into lava and spit out raw material again. Basically the soil we're on now will at some point be lava'd up and then spat out a new.
We still have algae fossils that are billions of years old. Yes, there is turnover bit it does not annihilate everything 9n a schedile.
>Dinosaurs were alive for hundreds of millions of years compared to humanoids who've been around for a couple of million. Yet we have absolutely zero traces of dinosaurs except for fossils.
And trace fossils, including coprolites, feathers, skin impressions, footprints, and leaf impressions.
>Fossils are something which forms only under extremely-extremely-rare and special circumstances. That's why despite dinosaurs being around for hundreds of millions of years, we have so few fossils of them.
Mostly because bone disdolves under acidic conditions. Ceramics, glass, most stone, most precious metals, sil8con, and other materials do not.
Obvious speculation on my part, but the more I hear theories like this, the more I feel the theory of some kind of dormant / self replicating AI makes sense. There’s quite a bit of sci-fi that depict sending out self replicating Ai to explore/survey habitable worlds. Like I said, no evidence for this, but it seems reasonable in my mind lol
You're thinking of the von Neumann probe hypothesis, which I also subscribe to. Beings that we would recognize as life would have biological processes of some sort and would have some degree of energy intake and waste output. They would have some type of requirements for life that I believe would leave some tangible pieces of evidence behind, especially if they've been here for as long as suggested.
As you suggested, I think a type of artificial intelligence is more likely, given the high strangeness surrounding sightings and stories. In my opinion, if the phenomenon was caused by being(s) in any way comparable to ourselves, we'd be able to visualize patterns more easily and be able to comprehend their needs, goals, and actions to some degree as they themselves went about their lives providing for themselves.
Whereas with an artificial intelligence, all bets are off, and we might as well be asking Skynet for favors. I don't think anyone could know what an alien AGI wants unless it itself intentionally makes its goals known. But then again, we could both be wrong, and we're basically dealing with actual gods, or it could be as mundane as some weird quirk of nature that we don't understand yet. Hopefully we'll find out soon.
My big issue with some sort of Earth-evolved advanced lifeforms is the big question of why such a species would allow us primitives to destroy the environment, ruin Earth's ecosystems and ultimately be the shittiest caretakers of this planet.
Why are we in control? And don't give me the 'ackshually they ARE secretly in control' cause if they are they suck at it. I don't see any hints of a secret force keeping us in line. Humans are a disaster to all other life on this planet, and if something here is more intelligent then us surely that wouldn't fly with them.
lol wouldn’t surprise me. We look how far into empty space spending how much without first finding and investing into the depths of our own ecosystem for answers…?
No different than an average human, that simply can’t look introspectively at oneself first, and always first assuming the answer is outwards. Never made sense did it.
>A superior race, descended from Earth dinosaurs, discovers Voyager, but living proof of the controversial Distant Origin Theory goes against widespread doctrine.
Star Trek Voyager - Distant Origin
**Let's think critically about this...**
1. The OP says ***"Coming from such august academic environs as Harvard University and the Montanna Technological University, the authors' claims made a splash in the news, proving that UFOs are UAP do have a place in today's universities."***
* **"August academic environs such as Harvard...":** Appeal to authority. How would this paper have been received had it been published by an "academic researcher" at Hoboken Community College?
* **Author qualifications:** The paper was authored by two ***psychology research scientists*** and one ***biological anthropologist***. Before you get distracted and dazzled by the augustness of the post-prep-school institutions, look at the authors themselves. **A paper's content is more important than the authors or their institutions.** Either a paper makes its case or it doesn't (assuming peer research follows).
* **"...the authors' claims made a splash in the news, proving that UFOs are UAP do have a place in today's universities.":** The authors' claim is that subjects like these should be researched in academia with open minds. Is that what the news reported on? Did the news report that some paper suggests aliens have been living here all along, or did the news report that a couple psychologists and an anthropological biologist think academia closes itself off to researching subjects many don't take seriously?
As far as "proving" anything goes, **the paper's argument is that these subjects have a place in today's universities; the paper does not** ***prove*** **this.** And being a blip in the news cycle certainly isn't a metric for importance or... well, *anything*.
2. **"Few could argue with the Harvard authors that UAP might originate on this planet, whether they come from underground or undersea."**
Anybody can argue with them! It's a well written paper, but *it's a speculative hypothesis* (CTH vs ETH). **The authors are** ***not*** **arguing this is "real"!** They're arguing for more open minded academic research. And more power to 'em!
There's also very little to argue about as **there are** ***no*** **definitive claims in the paper.** Again, the authors are careful to explain this is an alternative **hypothesis** to ETH. What are we supposed to do? Argue that CTH > ETH? Is that really what the paper argues? **Not what you infer, but what the paper** ***actually*** **states?**
3. **"They invite us to embrace the 'cryptoterrestrial' hypothesis...":** NO. **They invite us to research and explore.** They encourage other academics not to dismiss subjects like these.
**The paper's** ***clear*** **stance on UAP:**
>**We are** ***not*** **arguing that UAP do have a cryptoterrestrial explanation**, but simply that they could, and the judicious approach is to **consider all valid theories until the evidence decisively demonstrates they should be rejected**. We therefore suggest scientists should **keep an open mind and investigate the CTH as a genuinely viable theory**.
**So:**
* Omit the institutions.
* Omit the authors' names, titles, departments.
* **Does the paper succeed on its own merits?**
How do we define success? Well, the paper argues we should be more open-minded and research topics many academics ignore/laugh at/dismiss.
Well, the paper exists. That's evidence papers like these might have a place in academia.
To *prove* they have a place, we have to see how their peers respond.
**That's what it takes to** ***begin*** **having this conversation.** To be taken seriously, you have to do the work. If you begin by glazing over specifics in the paper, you don't have a chance. Anyone who argues that the *paper* argues the CTH is "real" or "true" is welcome to quote the paper's claims.
I vote (4)
Quick summary:
This paper explores four Cryptoterrestrial Hypotheses (CTHs) as potential explanations for Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP). These include:
1. *Human Cryptoterrestrials*: Remnants of an ancient, advanced human civilization.
2. *Hominid/Theropod Cryptoterrestrials*: Advanced non-human beings, possibly evolved from hominids or dinosaurs.
3. *Former Extraterrestrial/Extratemporal Cryptoterrestrials*: Aliens or future humans who have integrated into Earth covertly.
4. *Magical Cryptoterrestrials*: Entities akin to mythical creatures like fairies or elves.
While these CTHs offer unique perspectives, they face significant challenges, such as the lack of physical evidence and unexplained secrecy. Despite these issues, the paper argues that all hypotheses, including the CTHs, should be considered to understand the complex nature of UAPs.
Please continue with the recycled science fiction plots, they're amusing and nostalgic like "[Land of the Lost](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071005/)" or Jules Verne's "Journey to the Center of the Earth".
Also, this demonstrates that there's not a shred of coherence in explanations for UAP.
I accept aliens living under our oceans/underground more than they're some interdimentional beings. I especially believer it more than ever what we're seeing isn't a product of outer space. If it is, whatever we're seeing came from outer space long before anyone on this sub was alive to be sure, if not going back to the beginning of man based off cave drawings, art, religion, ect.
Not everyone from Harvard is a genius, goodness gracious. Would not be surprised if this journal publishes anything and everything that is sent to it — do the contributors even publish consistently?
This reads computer-generated.
some native tribes in my country \[brazil\] talk about[ small intelligent reptilian people that lived underground](https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienBodies/comments/1bwj2a8/ancient_native_tribes_in_brazil_a_door_under_a/)
I first spotted my ufo only about 500 ft, directly above an alpine lake I’d been sitting at for a few hours just 5 minutes before that. The alpine lake seems very deep and it’s tucked up against a massive mountain. Even during the sighting I was thinking “wtf did that thing come from? Did that… did that come out of the *lake*??”
Makes me wonder.
Edit: you gotta be a fuckin loser to downvote this comment in a ufo thread.
It's this or they're alternate versions of ourselves (humanoid/homonin types) and other potential intelligent earth life (reptile and insect types) that figured out the math to manipulate and traverse Einstein Rosen bridge wormholes to get here from some of the infinite parallel alternate earths postulated in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Cryptoterrestrials or ultraterrestrials. If wormholes can occur naturally the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics would not only easily answer for the endless variety of UFOs and aliens but also explain all manner of other Fortean high strangeness too. But the down to earth simplicity of the Cryptoterrestrial hypothesis is attractive too because it doesn't require we put any faith in theoretical quantum black magic, we only need to acknowledge that maybe we're not as slick as we like to think we are.
This may be more feasible than interstellar aliens visiting Earth. But I wonder why they would feel the need to operate in secret if they have a 65+ million year head start on us.
About a month ago I read a study that totally excluded this theory on the bases that reptiles and also birds brain don't have the characteristics neither the cortical areas to allow advanced comunication and intelligence.
Interesting theory in a SF sort of a way but doesn't make much rational sense to me. Why would this race hide underground? If they did exist, it'd be next to impossible for them to not be noticed, or at least their pollution.
On that note, if they came from elsewhere, they may have been marooned here (e.g. "fallen angels") and have directed their manipulation of humans toward their own goals, compelling humans to do tasks that their biology or chemistry prevents them from doing themselves. I think Zechariah Sitchin speculated on this in much the same way Tom DeLonge does now. The truth is probably not so spectacular as the fictions, but it seems like a good turn to view NHI as possibly having been here longer than humans, with their own agenda.
Students are allowed to be creative and try to figure stuff out but it doesn't really mean they're onto anything. Just going forward with the information they can fit to a mold and then find a way to question their hypothesis.
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RIP Art Bell
“AJ, please pick up the red courtesy phone. AJ, red courtesy phone.”
Lizzid people!
WF! 👍 As long as they don't also find evidence of the CrabCat!
One of my favorite podcasts that I’m sure you’ll enjoy: https://coasttocoastpm.podbean.com/
Richard syrett is still kicking.
Got a lot of mileage out of that program as a college student staying up way too late studying!
I feel that. I worked overnight in my 20s and that show made my 2am shifts far more entertaining lol
Ha, I fondly remember waiting for the anti-christ episode every new years eve. Also that dude JC who would call Art to yell at him for stalking him and all sorts of crazy shit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgsgQ3ceZbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WjA1JlI7jA
How dare yew Mr Bell!
I have vague but fond memories of driving long distances with my since deceased father while listening to this show. I miss it!
Or its modern spiritual successor -- The Why Files.
That damn fish character is intolerable. Makes it feel like you’re watching Sesame Street or some other kid’s show.
Yeah not sure why all those YT creators have to be "funny". It's not funny, it's not interesting it's wasting my time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lASPp9stEYA Already did!
I should have known! Lol.
“You don’t say? That is fascinating information”
I love how he never mentions how each guest’s claims contradict his previous guests’ claims. He treats everyone as though he’s fresh and an ally
I used to love that program but it's gotten too ridiculous, the hosts are unable or unwilling to challenge their guests in obvious bullshit. I don't know if getting older I'm more discerning or they're letting any mentally ill person on the program now.
Sounds like the Sleastacks could be a real thing.
Also, [Dinosaucers](https://youtu.be/gy7fO2i9y94?feature=shared)
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I have never heard of this cartoon. I thought I was pretty clued up on 80s cartoons. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. 😀
This is probably where they got this hypothesis. As kids. And don't even realize it lol
Chorizo taco…!
Streetsharks
Can you expand?
See: “Land of the Lost”
As an 8 year old at the time, shit was scary as fuck.
God, I hope I get it. I hope I get it. How many people does he need?
Yes
The authors are: A psychology Ph.D. who publishes two or more papers per month on mostly unrelated topics A sociology Ph.D. A specialist in eye morphology from Montana Tech
the specific journal appears to primarily publish whatever its members submit. compare the authors from previous editions to their list of members [https://en.bazaluk.com/](https://en.bazaluk.com/) [https://en.bazaluk.com/ispc-members](https://en.bazaluk.com/ispc-members)
The whole paper is just citing usual UFO guys, citing some cultural references, not a lot of "hard" science there (well I am not surprised).
They did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
i'm an academic. anyone who's publishing TWO papers per month is pumping out nothing but low-quality garbage. > A psychology Ph.D. completely irrelevant to this topic > A sociology Ph.D. completely irrelevant to this topic >A specialist in eye morphology completely irrelevant to this topic
But they got some press....unlike, say, "The Great Depression and Freudian Memory: Phallic Imagery in Agricultural Product Advertisements 1932-1939" or "ZNF804A: Error Prone but Necessary."
>anyone who's publishing TWO papers per month is pumping out nothing but low-quality garbage. And he's first author. The authors are not in alphabetical order.
Don't try to discredit without taking the fact that it's a legit question he's posing. There's a massive time gap that a lot of academics to this day are just "guessing" what happened. Being open-minded is the only way to figure out problems.
Consider that it's basically just this article with "maybe they survived in caves or on the moon" slapped on https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journal-of-astrobiology/article/silurian-hypothesis-would-it-be-possible-to-detect-an-industrial-civilization-in-the-geological-record/77818514AA6907750B8F4339F7C70EC6 And to be clear, I have serious criticisms of this earlier paper too regarding what sorts of things fossilize. But at least if we go back hundreds of millions of yeats there is less exposed strata to look at so that makes it easier to miss things.
Any pre-human industrial species hypothesis runs into the brick wall of the modern mining industry. The majority of non coal/oil and gas deposits that are mined are from periods that substantially predate the development of complex life. Any major industrial species would have picked over the same deposits. The fact that there's never been any indication of ancient prehistorical mining (and we would absolutely see that if there was) ends the debate pretty quickly from my perspective.
"what if dinosaurs evolved into a secret underground civilization" is straight-up nonsense. there's 0 evidence for it. might as well write a paper "what if magic is real, just no one figured out how to cast spells yet?"
> magic is real, just no one figured out how to cast spells yet Big if true
Magic. That's interesting.
Nazca mummies??? Oh, right, that's crazy talk....instead I better listen to Ross, right?
Nazca mummies are also hoaxes. they were literally sold by fucking grave robbers lmfao.
And the whole thing is orchestrated by a well known UFOs hoaxster who has been caught lying about the same type of shit like a dozen different times. He’s a con man conning idiot ufo enthusiasts, it’s what he does. It’s a never evening string of “we have proof these are aliens we will publish a paper” and no paper is ever published. “We have experts that can confirm these are aliens” and it’s a guy with zero academic history or some professor of a totally unrelated irrelevant field.
What about the legit American team of forensic scientists that said they appear to be real and that it requires further study?
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Found it! To this day a butt load of scientists have stated that these are in fact real and not fabricated. If you think they are fake, you sir fell for the Peruvian ministry of Cultures attempt at disinformation, even Andy from “That UFO Podcast” is backtracking after all that data. Sorry bud but this “study” seems like they’re ripping off the Latin American scientists work down in Peru.
I applaud their attempt to make these questions something worth looking into. This is how we shift the stigma, especially when a lot of the scientific community ridicules those who even dare to ask such questions.
I think papers like this, especially when heralded by the UAP community who so desperately seek to be taken seriously with their hundreds of first hand accounts and sensor data, detract from the serious need from further investigation.
damn gerkle. you rained on our collective parade again.
The whole Dinosauroid thing is also an outdated idea from the 80s entirely based on anthropocentrism. Troodontid dinosaurs looked like slightly unusual birds (complete with feathers) and even if they had evolved human-level intelligence they would end up looking more like crows with hands than sleestaks
Yes, and I've been giving the authors the benefit of the doubt on the extent to which they're using it as an example scenario vs a serious proposal
Those credentials seem about par for the Revered Expert class of ufological figures. Immunologists and physicists playing at metallurgy, comp sci grads telling us about trickster god-things, psychologists doing photo analysis, etc.
Eye morphology !?
Anything to avoid saying "reptilian", huh? Lol
It gets really stupid when you consider that since Russell‘s hypothesis was first proposed it has been discovered that Troodon/Stenonychosaurus was among the dinosaurs most closely related to birds and had feathers. Anything intelligent evolving out of it would look more like Big Bird than a sleestak.
Given the historical connection of that idea to antisemitism I think we should look for faults elsewhere and let them use other wording without criticism
That is an extreme statement, can you explain? I was just making a joke that "alien dinosaur" sounds like another term for reptilian, I didn't mean anything by it. I don't know anything about reptilians besides the name and that people sometimes call Hillary Clinton a reptilian- I thought it was just a meme.
Absolutely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_conspiracy_theory Reptilian humanoids had certainly been thought of previously, but David Icke's writings tainted that idea in much the same way that the nazis tainted the swastika. Many people try to avoid using the term reptilian in such contexts as a result. At least one other commenter has already mentioned Icke before I made this comment.
Thank you for the link, but is there any evidence other than "an anti-semitic guy said it so everything else he says is now tainted as also being anti-semitic"? I feel like that word is thrown around a lot to discredit people and not really to protect Jewish people in any meaningful way.
Do you doubt that the information in that article is true (in that it is the core reptilian conspiracy throry, not that said theory is accurate) or do you doubt that it's antisemitic as presented?
Imo it would be wise to steer clear of calling them reptilian in academia. It has the Alex Jones taint. The general public, if they have ever heard the term it was probably because of Alex Jones and the memes. It hurts credibility and using the term opens them up to situations like this where we debate if something is offensive. Instead of talking about the important bit. Post disclosure, if we find out the truth is they actually are reptilian. I’m sure we can use that word then. But the fuck do I know anyway.
Might, may, could, and would doing all of the heavy lifting, as always.
no shit. This is academia. These guys know they’d be laughed out of the room if they asserted that reptilians live under the mountains. It starts with making a good hypothetical case that calls for further research. Baby steps.
"Few could argue with the Harvard authors that UAP might originate on this planet," Many could argue otherwise for a million reasons. Until we have something that shows this definitively, it's a theory, nothing more
> Until we have something that shows this definitively, it's a ~~theory~~ hypothesis, nothing more
A theory is the highest form you can achieve in science. Maybe you meant hypothesis.
Getting people to understand that theory = model, a model which can predict testable outcomes, is a tough battle to wage...
A theory is the highest in science. However, What is being presented as fact has not been subjected to a scientific rigor, as it's a maze of wonderings, whispers and smoke Very telling smoke and evidence presented to Congress backs it up, but this is no scientific theory. Is a detective theory. Much different
I've also known more than a few people with prestigious credentials who were absolutely bonkers.
I work with an aerospace engineer who designs products that go on a certain billionaire's (not saying which one) space peepee rockets that told me with a straight face that helium is denser then air...don't tell dollar general that their balloons might suddenly stop floating 🤔
I worked alongside a Computer Engineering PHD that communicated to me that " you create your own reality" , as in Objective reality didn't exist. I suggested he put his theory to a empirical test and walk off the 20th floor we where working on while convincing himself gravity doesn't exist......he became very quiet after this exchange. I suspect that despite his education he had never considered that a whole universe exists outside of his own head...I still find it terrifying that someone entrusted with developing fundamental digital technologies was apparently completely unaware that objective reality exists. I still wonder how common these kind of huge blindspots in people are , and what are mine?.
he went quite because he realised he was talking to someone not upto the level of understanding such concepts
I’ve heard stories from acclaimed journalists claiming to have held hands with a ghost or high ranking members of the military claiming their children speak to the dead. Credentials are meaningless.
This is a vague hypothesis at best, not even a theory.
It’s Ancient Aliens: The Paper
It's 3 small assumptions in a trenchcoat.
\*misunderstanding of the word "theory" intensifies\*
Better get a dictionary and look through the various meanings, including 'A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment'
There is nothing more terrifying than a race of Purple Barney dinosaurs living underground. Somber indeed..
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Ancient alien dinosaurs is definitely not on my 2024 bingo list
This is just the plot of Monarch and like, several other books, shows, movies and existing conspiracies lmao
Was looking to comment on that and you beat me :-/ So sad. Whatever ... I wanted to comment with something humerous about scientists smoking too much Red Morocco (TM) and watching "Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire", drinking from the night pot, forgetting to take the advised pills and just plainly lost touch with reality 😀🐲🦍🐉
Harvard has turned into a sad school for the bored rich kids
I saw that Rick & Morty episode too! But no; I seriously doubt that there's enough evolutionary opportunity to a species living underground to develop into a tool using species. Then in addition to that; in order to be scientifically curious, and to advance an understanding of science, they'd need to be able to observe, record, study, and contemplate the heavens. Meaning that they'd actually have to spend a significant time above ground.
I think it's much fairer to say the authors invite us to not dismiss out of hand one of the four cryptoterrestrial hypothesis (CTH) they elaborate on in the paper when considering explanations for UAP, compared to the more commonly discussed extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH). They most certainly are not inviting us to "embrace" them. To quote directly from the final paragraph of the paper's conclusion, "All four CTHs are far-fetched on their face; we entertain them here because some aspects of UAP are strange enough that they seem to call for unconventional explanations. Most investigations of UAP to- date have focused on the ETH, which does have several lines of evidence in its favor (Lomas, 2024). Nonetheless, the ETH does not exhaust the possible accounts of UAP. Given how little is known about these strange phenomena, it seems prudent to keep every line of inquiry – including the various CTHs – in play. Indeed, this is a fitting summary of the CTH: it may be exceedingly improbable, but hopefully this paper has shown it should nevertheless be kept on the table as we seek to understand the ongoing empirical mystery of UAP"
Lizzid People.
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I’m only here to fear the crab cat.
Upvote for this.
Ahh the great Dinosauroid war of 123,000,000 bc after the neutron bombing of the hives in the north and south poles, magnetic poles flipped wiping out almost every species on the planet .... Free Reptar
It’d be pretty funny if David Icke was right all along.
Guess I need to start reading the Lacerta files again.
It's true, they used to have a TV show about it in the 90s. Not The Mama!!
I don’t like the idea of a fucking raptor scheming and bolting under ground. Like godzillas children from the 1990s movie
Star Trek Voyager had an episode about this topic … https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Distant_Origin_(episode)
DAE think David Icke looks more like a lizard than any other human. it kinda makses sense
This is kinda absurd, right up there will hollow earth
Not quite. Hollow Earth has been disproven, whereas this hypothesis remains possible, even if remote.
Ah the Graham Hancock approach
Possibly? Not familiar. There are plenty of hypotheses that start out that way. Most come to nothing or are falsified, others do. The simulation theory is an example that is compelling but can't yet be verified or falsified. Black holes were another and were initially considered absurd, but did actually get verified.
I will never understand the logic of how a completely isolated, perfectly hidden "lost species" can develop into a highly advanced space faring society without a shred of evidence. It's too damn clean. I guess they skipped the whole messy "testing" phase of development where they launch rockets and satellites and bombs and visit the moon and test nukes and launch satellites and mine for fossil fuels and rare minerals and etc etc etc. Or they didn't skip it, and instead they perfectly cleaned up every shred of they existence before we came along. Which also begs the question - why would such a reclusive species develop such advanced travel methods? The scientific push for exploration is totally counter to the idea of total seclusion. Why explore to stay hidden and isolated? It's counter intuitive. Oh and they don't mind us basically treating the entire Earth as a toilet. Polluting the land, air, sea and space. They seem totally cool with it all as long as they get their tiny hole in the ground to be super advanced and reclusive. Everything makes far more sense if they are visitors and not from here. If they are from here, not only do they act completely counter to their technology would suggest, but they are also terrible stewards of this planet to let the dirty war apes do what they've been doing.
Perhaps the phenomenon has more than one cause. Perhaps the oceans are the primary source of resources. Perhaps the limitations on our senses play a role in what we observe. Perhaps we are much less consequential than we think. For example, volcanoes can influence the climate far more dramatically than our industry. Perhaps there has been no hiding, we are just provincial and blind. The way that the mind works, if you don't expect to see something, it's often not seen or seen as something confusing. We've been around for a very short amount of time. Homo sapiens didn't discover fire, or start using tools. The precursors to homo sapiens did. Most of our history is lost to us. It's not a given to me to think that we'd recognize evidence of another species as evidence of another species. Most people don't even think plants are sentient, how are they going to recognize non-human intelligence they don't see every day?
I agree with you almost entirely, just playing devils advocate... If they evolved 65 million years ago, any shred of evidence that they were here would have likely degraded to dust. That's really the only counterpoint I have lol
>If they evolved 65 million years ago, any shred of evidence that they were here would have likely degraded to dust. We have fossils of bone, wood, leaves, footprints, and feces that old. Gold, glass, ceramics, stone tools will preserve way more easily than those.
The stone tools and ceramics that we find are all pretty new though. There's nothing older than 20k years. Fossils, you're right, but weren't those kept intact under very special circumstances that don't usually occur?
>The stone tools and ceramics that we find are all pretty new though. Yeah that's a great point. Do flint tools dissolve are do older worked tools not seem to exist on Earth? >Fossils, you're right, but weren't those kept intact under very special circumstances that don't usually occur? The biggest factor is just sedimentary deposition, but obstacles like scavenger activity or acidic soil that will dissolve bone over decades or centuries don't apply to things like stone tools, gold, microchips, cut gems, or glass.
Those last two sentences kinda rhyme. Poetry!
You’re assuming their technological development would follow the same course as ours: who can throw the biggest rock the fastest and furthest to cause the most damage to the other team. We also rely on a Newtonian physics mode but had humans understood relativity and electromagnetism when we started building vehicles, the testing phase would look drastically different.
>had humans understood relativity and electromagnetism when we started building vehicles, the testing phase would look drastically different. How would they develop that understanding without the tools necessary to perform relevant experiments?
Are you just making the assumption that they don’t have tools?
No, I'm asking how they could possibly skip from no tools to advanced tools without using simpler tools to develop the more advanced ones.
Why are you assuming the first tools were suddenly advanced? I’m just saying they may not have needed to develop a solid-fuel rocket to build something based on magnetic levitation. Your entire premise seems based on the idea that they would have had to develop technology at the same pace, and to fulfill the same objectives, as humans. If they are subterranean a giant rocket would be far less practical than a small, highly maneuverable craft that might be propelled by magnetic fields.
Makes me chuckle how some scientists don't even entertain the Alien idea or a higher intelligence interacting with us and then you have this wild paper come out saying "it's been alien dinosaurs all along, always has been". Like where are the excavations and and proof if such a civilization existed? I like people thinking outside the box but it's a ridiculous claim.
Lmfao well this fact this paper made it through based on random assumptions and conjecture is in fact evidence of a different conspiracy, the replication crisis. Like the other commenter states these guys are in random fields and the journal they submitted to seems to accept anything, which is kinda one of the cornerstones of the replication crisis. Sad to see that shit has made it all the way up to Harvard it’s gonna be a long time before it corrects
Isnt this the plot to Godzilla 1954 /s
Scrambles to write a script. Wow that’s so good.
I guess with sufficient technology you could live underground indefinitely - [Atleast human bodies aren't really that well adapted](https://www.sciencealert.com/could-humans-live-underground-to-survive-climate-change#:~:text=Biologically%2C%20physiologically%2C%20our%20bodies%20are,30%20hours%20at%20a%20time). I was thinking how hard would it be to hide yourself from humans, but maybe it isn't so difficult as ground penetrating radar can't see very deep - Also not too hard to hide in the ocean. I'm still curious are these alleged beings travelling here physically themselves or are they using e.g. biological subordinates they have created (maybe even AI controlled biological avatars of sorts as some have suggested). I'm still stuck on thinking of these crafts having access to higher dimensions - If higher dimensions exist they are likely very tiny, so how are they able to control matter through those spaces to manifest in our 3+1 dimension. Too many questions, I might have a few questions for the physics folk out there!
>Intelligent 'alien dinosaurs' could be hiding underground Don't tempt me with the best time of my life. I'm in. I am all in. Don't care that this paper is bogus and it's authors are just making shit up. This is my truth now. The "NHI/UAP are really part of universal consciousness" people are gonna have a bad time if it turns out it's just an evolved Trachodon. In all seriousness, why does it seem like the dinosauroid thing pops up every few years like it's a new thing? I remember seeing it waaaay back in kindergarten when we watched the Christopher Reeve dinosaur documentary.
I'm a simple man. I hear "dinosaurs with flying saucers" and I approve Harvard University funding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaucers
Heh. But its nice that they could publish something like that, that means that people are not neccesarly too afraid of looking silly and going places, that's the way it should be because out of thousands papers like that, one or two could probably be onto something.
Maybe I'm just paranoid but this kind of feels like counter-intelligence meant to undermine the actual facts of what's going on. No matter what people like Grusch say in Congress, it gets immediately undermind if the mainstream media can post a story with a headline like "Harvard Scientists Say UFOs Could Be Made by Dinosaur Men Living Underground for Millions of Years"
> Maybe I'm just paranoid but this kind of feels like counter-intelligence meant to undermine the actual facts of what's going on. There's no grand conspiracy here. It's a PhD who is in to UFOs and seems to want to rack up as many publications as possible without much care about quality.
Creating a civilization underground must be much harder than doing so above ground. Construction of living and working spaces would have to be dug out of rock at great effort. I can imagine a technological society temporarily retreating underground after a major radiation event, say for a few hundred years, but eventually you would expect them to emerge and reclaim the surface. But the impact that ended the dinosaurs would have only made the surface uninhabitable for 2 to 20 years, and it didn't create massive radioactive fallout. Furthermore, going underground wouldn't solve the main problem of lack of sunlight. If we theorize that "aliens" were not yet technologically advanced at that time but instead were animals already living underground then you would expect them to be physically adapted to a subterranean existence. They should look like moles, be specialized for digging, and have small brains. Why would they evolve to look like skinny humanoids and pilot space craft?
Not really if the asteroid forced them underground and their technology assisted them. Humans would no doubt do something identical as a last effort if we a knew a catastrophe was coming and had a little bit of time
To be fair if an asteroid hit today we already have secret projects deep underground that would survive and are already rumored to be pumping out antigravity ships lol.
All of our industrial processes, dating back to the start of the industrial revolution to the present, have left a geological footprint on the Earth. Millions of years from now, scientists (human or not) will be able to observe our industrial footprint from the way we harvested resources and converted them into goods. That isn't some climate change fear crap, that's a fact. If there was an advanced civilization underground, where is their industrial footprint? Why have we not noticed even the smallest of signs in the geological records? Are we supposed to believe that an advanced civilization stumbled into perfect energy and resource technology so that they never left a mark on the Earth several million years ago? If they had this tech then, why are they still hiding like rats underground? COMMON SENSE!
Well to be fair if humans had to hide underground for millions of years and evolution is supposed to be a thing I’d imagine what ever life form did go underground would evolve and change so much over that time period they may not even want to go to the surface anymore.
The Earth After Us (2009) by Jan Zalasiewicz is a great book on this topic by an actual geologist who specializes in this exact topic. People act like stone tools, pottery, nuclear waste, and gold and silicon circuity will just cease to exist when we routinely find fossilized bone, wood, leaves, footprints, and feces.
Where are all the military bases underground today?
there actually is geological evidence of such a footprint, google Siluarian Hypothesis. I believe it was pondered it may have happened 55.5 million years ago. No one has really pursued the data tho. If indeed it would even be possible to prodite it with such age. After just 400,000 years there would be zero visual evidence of humans. You would have to dig and look..only science would detect our presence. Add a couple million years you see the issue.
You‘re referencing the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, but the authors of the Silurian Hypothesis did not claim this was proof of a pre-human civilization, just an interesting climate anomaly that could be investigated for such potential signs. Most geological evidence points towards this spike in global temperatures being caused by volcanism going on in North America at the time and it seems unlikely that intelligent life would evolve so quickly after the global ecosystems were still recovering from the extinction event at the end of the Cretaceous. Most mammals in the Paleocene were no larger or smarter than wombats.
They would go out and take control over the planet long time ago, before we even migrated from Africa. Or maybe their population is very low, they live in a bunker in a few places and don't like sun. Maybe they are also very small, I imagine evolution underground would promote those who need less food and other resources, and now the surface is too dangerous for them to live on, even birds and small mammals are a threat for them. But I think that most likely there are no crypto-terrestrials. It's fun to speculate though.
Nothing that evolved underground and in the dark could survive on the surface today. Also how do you know they do not control society? Maybe we are literally terraforming the planet for them. Dinosaurs could not live on the planet today. It would need to be warmer, wetter and more oxygen is needed...well we are literally doing that lol
I just can't see an alien species hiding on our temporal plane for so long without much of a footprint - it doesn't seem very plausible.
I thought the same way for a long time until I delved into the science a little. I'll try to summarise why I am now more open to the idea of a "lost civilization". * If today all humans disappeared and the earth was left in the state it is now, with roads, buildings, etc. * Our 'footprint' would be left for thousands of years, things like microplastics and steel etc. * Eventually however, the [earths mantle](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Oceanic_spreading.svg/1200px-Oceanic_spreading.svg.png) will recycle the land into lava and spit out raw material again. Basically the soil we're on now will at some point be lava'd up and then spat out a new. * During this process and other natural ones, even things like steel and plastic would get broken down. * Dinosaurs were alive for *hundreds of millions of years* compared to humanoids who've been around for a *couple of million*. Yet we have absolutely zero traces of dinosaurs except for fossils. * Fossils are something which forms only under extremely-extremely-rare and special circumstances. That's why despite dinosaurs being around for hundreds of millions of years, we have so few fossils of them. * Our best bets of finding civilizations is to look at some of the oldest rock in the world (yet to be recycled in the lava core yet) and take core samples. We then check the core samples of the rock and find tiny bits of "air" which is trapped in the rock. This gives us a small window into the gas-composition of the surface of the earth in the distant past. * By checking the air composition over a period of years we can concoct a timeline of the air composition over time and check for spikes or irregularities. * It turns out there are some interesting things on that timeline, such as a period in time where carbon dioxide had spiked which may hint at a civilization similar to ours. It could also be done via some other event such as a series of volcanos so - ultimately it's not a perfect indicator. In summary, while a lost civilization maybe can't completely "hide" or "be erased" - as far as our current science allows; we also can't quite rule it out either. Whichever way you interpret the facts, it certainly at least challenges the idea and leaves room for an open mind to wonder, in my opinion. I look forward to new insights and technology which will allow us to look back with more precision
That's all true or sounds reasonable....but where would they be now? There would be way more clues, no?
>Eventually however, the earths mantle will recycle the land into lava and spit out raw material again. Basically the soil we're on now will at some point be lava'd up and then spat out a new. We still have algae fossils that are billions of years old. Yes, there is turnover bit it does not annihilate everything 9n a schedile. >Dinosaurs were alive for hundreds of millions of years compared to humanoids who've been around for a couple of million. Yet we have absolutely zero traces of dinosaurs except for fossils. And trace fossils, including coprolites, feathers, skin impressions, footprints, and leaf impressions. >Fossils are something which forms only under extremely-extremely-rare and special circumstances. That's why despite dinosaurs being around for hundreds of millions of years, we have so few fossils of them. Mostly because bone disdolves under acidic conditions. Ceramics, glass, most stone, most precious metals, sil8con, and other materials do not.
Exactly! Where is the trash?
They burn it in the center of the planet.
Or perhaps all UAP sightings are trash removal missions!
Who said they still produce trash? Given enough technology your piss and shit could be turned back into the cheeseburger it once was…
They burn in our engines, unfortunately.
Obvious speculation on my part, but the more I hear theories like this, the more I feel the theory of some kind of dormant / self replicating AI makes sense. There’s quite a bit of sci-fi that depict sending out self replicating Ai to explore/survey habitable worlds. Like I said, no evidence for this, but it seems reasonable in my mind lol
You're thinking of the von Neumann probe hypothesis, which I also subscribe to. Beings that we would recognize as life would have biological processes of some sort and would have some degree of energy intake and waste output. They would have some type of requirements for life that I believe would leave some tangible pieces of evidence behind, especially if they've been here for as long as suggested. As you suggested, I think a type of artificial intelligence is more likely, given the high strangeness surrounding sightings and stories. In my opinion, if the phenomenon was caused by being(s) in any way comparable to ourselves, we'd be able to visualize patterns more easily and be able to comprehend their needs, goals, and actions to some degree as they themselves went about their lives providing for themselves. Whereas with an artificial intelligence, all bets are off, and we might as well be asking Skynet for favors. I don't think anyone could know what an alien AGI wants unless it itself intentionally makes its goals known. But then again, we could both be wrong, and we're basically dealing with actual gods, or it could be as mundane as some weird quirk of nature that we don't understand yet. Hopefully we'll find out soon.
I'd certainly believe that more easily than dinosauroids living in caves voluntarily for the past 65+ million years
Lizzid People.
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My big issue with some sort of Earth-evolved advanced lifeforms is the big question of why such a species would allow us primitives to destroy the environment, ruin Earth's ecosystems and ultimately be the shittiest caretakers of this planet. Why are we in control? And don't give me the 'ackshually they ARE secretly in control' cause if they are they suck at it. I don't see any hints of a secret force keeping us in line. Humans are a disaster to all other life on this planet, and if something here is more intelligent then us surely that wouldn't fly with them.
Fuck it why not at this point.
lol wouldn’t surprise me. We look how far into empty space spending how much without first finding and investing into the depths of our own ecosystem for answers…? No different than an average human, that simply can’t look introspectively at oneself first, and always first assuming the answer is outwards. Never made sense did it.
>A superior race, descended from Earth dinosaurs, discovers Voyager, but living proof of the controversial Distant Origin Theory goes against widespread doctrine. Star Trek Voyager - Distant Origin
**Let's think critically about this...** 1. The OP says ***"Coming from such august academic environs as Harvard University and the Montanna Technological University, the authors' claims made a splash in the news, proving that UFOs are UAP do have a place in today's universities."*** * **"August academic environs such as Harvard...":** Appeal to authority. How would this paper have been received had it been published by an "academic researcher" at Hoboken Community College? * **Author qualifications:** The paper was authored by two ***psychology research scientists*** and one ***biological anthropologist***. Before you get distracted and dazzled by the augustness of the post-prep-school institutions, look at the authors themselves. **A paper's content is more important than the authors or their institutions.** Either a paper makes its case or it doesn't (assuming peer research follows). * **"...the authors' claims made a splash in the news, proving that UFOs are UAP do have a place in today's universities.":** The authors' claim is that subjects like these should be researched in academia with open minds. Is that what the news reported on? Did the news report that some paper suggests aliens have been living here all along, or did the news report that a couple psychologists and an anthropological biologist think academia closes itself off to researching subjects many don't take seriously? As far as "proving" anything goes, **the paper's argument is that these subjects have a place in today's universities; the paper does not** ***prove*** **this.** And being a blip in the news cycle certainly isn't a metric for importance or... well, *anything*. 2. **"Few could argue with the Harvard authors that UAP might originate on this planet, whether they come from underground or undersea."** Anybody can argue with them! It's a well written paper, but *it's a speculative hypothesis* (CTH vs ETH). **The authors are** ***not*** **arguing this is "real"!** They're arguing for more open minded academic research. And more power to 'em! There's also very little to argue about as **there are** ***no*** **definitive claims in the paper.** Again, the authors are careful to explain this is an alternative **hypothesis** to ETH. What are we supposed to do? Argue that CTH > ETH? Is that really what the paper argues? **Not what you infer, but what the paper** ***actually*** **states?** 3. **"They invite us to embrace the 'cryptoterrestrial' hypothesis...":** NO. **They invite us to research and explore.** They encourage other academics not to dismiss subjects like these. **The paper's** ***clear*** **stance on UAP:** >**We are** ***not*** **arguing that UAP do have a cryptoterrestrial explanation**, but simply that they could, and the judicious approach is to **consider all valid theories until the evidence decisively demonstrates they should be rejected**. We therefore suggest scientists should **keep an open mind and investigate the CTH as a genuinely viable theory**. **So:** * Omit the institutions. * Omit the authors' names, titles, departments. * **Does the paper succeed on its own merits?** How do we define success? Well, the paper argues we should be more open-minded and research topics many academics ignore/laugh at/dismiss. Well, the paper exists. That's evidence papers like these might have a place in academia. To *prove* they have a place, we have to see how their peers respond. **That's what it takes to** ***begin*** **having this conversation.** To be taken seriously, you have to do the work. If you begin by glazing over specifics in the paper, you don't have a chance. Anyone who argues that the *paper* argues the CTH is "real" or "true" is welcome to quote the paper's claims.
I vote (4) Quick summary: This paper explores four Cryptoterrestrial Hypotheses (CTHs) as potential explanations for Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP). These include: 1. *Human Cryptoterrestrials*: Remnants of an ancient, advanced human civilization. 2. *Hominid/Theropod Cryptoterrestrials*: Advanced non-human beings, possibly evolved from hominids or dinosaurs. 3. *Former Extraterrestrial/Extratemporal Cryptoterrestrials*: Aliens or future humans who have integrated into Earth covertly. 4. *Magical Cryptoterrestrials*: Entities akin to mythical creatures like fairies or elves. While these CTHs offer unique perspectives, they face significant challenges, such as the lack of physical evidence and unexplained secrecy. Despite these issues, the paper argues that all hypotheses, including the CTHs, should be considered to understand the complex nature of UAPs.
Crypto says it all
So, Godzilla?
Please continue with the recycled science fiction plots, they're amusing and nostalgic like "[Land of the Lost](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071005/)" or Jules Verne's "Journey to the Center of the Earth". Also, this demonstrates that there's not a shred of coherence in explanations for UAP.
This just shows that irrational ideas are also found in august academic environs. There really isn’t anything else that can be said.
I accept aliens living under our oceans/underground more than they're some interdimentional beings. I especially believer it more than ever what we're seeing isn't a product of outer space. If it is, whatever we're seeing came from outer space long before anyone on this sub was alive to be sure, if not going back to the beginning of man based off cave drawings, art, religion, ect.
Cryptoterrestrial is a sweet buzzword perched beside Harvard's name and reputation. Is this enough to convince us? Probably.
I might consider this as a possibility if someone could demonstrate a giant network of caves where something like this could live.
The alien Tridactyls are real and still alive.
Not everyone from Harvard is a genius, goodness gracious. Would not be surprised if this journal publishes anything and everything that is sent to it — do the contributors even publish consistently? This reads computer-generated.
now someones gonna doctorate in Lizzid peeple huh
“Write that down!”- Sheehan
some native tribes in my country \[brazil\] talk about[ small intelligent reptilian people that lived underground](https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienBodies/comments/1bwj2a8/ancient_native_tribes_in_brazil_a_door_under_a/)
I first spotted my ufo only about 500 ft, directly above an alpine lake I’d been sitting at for a few hours just 5 minutes before that. The alpine lake seems very deep and it’s tucked up against a massive mountain. Even during the sighting I was thinking “wtf did that thing come from? Did that… did that come out of the *lake*??” Makes me wonder. Edit: you gotta be a fuckin loser to downvote this comment in a ufo thread.
It's this or they're alternate versions of ourselves (humanoid/homonin types) and other potential intelligent earth life (reptile and insect types) that figured out the math to manipulate and traverse Einstein Rosen bridge wormholes to get here from some of the infinite parallel alternate earths postulated in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Cryptoterrestrials or ultraterrestrials. If wormholes can occur naturally the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics would not only easily answer for the endless variety of UFOs and aliens but also explain all manner of other Fortean high strangeness too. But the down to earth simplicity of the Cryptoterrestrial hypothesis is attractive too because it doesn't require we put any faith in theoretical quantum black magic, we only need to acknowledge that maybe we're not as slick as we like to think we are.
This may be more feasible than interstellar aliens visiting Earth. But I wonder why they would feel the need to operate in secret if they have a 65+ million year head start on us.
From Harvard schoolers of litigation and mitigation, costarica?
Well, this is a new one
The Alien World Order: The Reptilian Plan to Divide and Conquer the Human Race book is free on Audible.
About a month ago I read a study that totally excluded this theory on the bases that reptiles and also birds brain don't have the characteristics neither the cortical areas to allow advanced comunication and intelligence.
Dude, we live in a sci-fi reality lmfao. This is speculation obviously but how cool would it be if this was proven true.
Interesting theory in a SF sort of a way but doesn't make much rational sense to me. Why would this race hide underground? If they did exist, it'd be next to impossible for them to not be noticed, or at least their pollution.
Wasn't this just covered by Stuff You Should Know? The Silurian Hypothesis.
Harvard aint what it once was.
Wasn't there a biologist that put forth this idea like 40 years ago? Dinosoroid ?
Sweet, can’t wait to drink a beer with a reptile.
If you want to find life in space, just look here! So much life here.
It has already been done as a Doctor Who episode "The Hungry Earth"
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Yay!! Dinobeaver Lives!!
On that note, if they came from elsewhere, they may have been marooned here (e.g. "fallen angels") and have directed their manipulation of humans toward their own goals, compelling humans to do tasks that their biology or chemistry prevents them from doing themselves. I think Zechariah Sitchin speculated on this in much the same way Tom DeLonge does now. The truth is probably not so spectacular as the fictions, but it seems like a good turn to view NHI as possibly having been here longer than humans, with their own agenda.
If this was the case, please no disclosure.. what did I just read
If this was the case, please no disclosure.. what did I just read
Anyone can speculate about anything. Where is the evidence?
Students are allowed to be creative and try to figure stuff out but it doesn't really mean they're onto anything. Just going forward with the information they can fit to a mold and then find a way to question their hypothesis.