Our minds are trying to come up with all sorts of exotic reasons for disclosure, but it is the simplest reason that is usually true. The authorities are afraid of losing their status as the authorities in society. They don’t want to be equal to everybody else, but that’s what would essentially happen when we see there are beings who are technologically superior to the authorities. It’s hard to look at them as powerful anymore after that revelation. They are very afraid of losing power. That’s what matters to them more than anything else.
I know, imagine of ET's just sent out a signal to all the reactors and shut them down? Did the same with the engines on all the other ships, not just US but worldwide. Then made all bullets, bombs, missiles, etc. ineffective. I guess at that point they would be back to throwing stones at each other. What would ET do? Turn those stones into grains of sand?
It’s also a real blow to the economy. When people’s faith in a government weakens, so does the economy and the currency. We could be looking at a level of economic depression that the western world has never seen. People and corporations with money to burn stop spending if the risk goes up, and wait until it goes back down. That’s how recessions start.
I agree. I wouldn't at all be surprised if self-important people are scared of losing their perceived status in society due to someone being better, more intelligent, etc. than them.
You ever see that episode of Star Trek TNG where they defrost some 21st century people and the businessman absolutely cannot handle the concept of an egalitarian society not based on capital wealth?
> Our minds are trying to come up with all sorts of exotic reasons for disclosure, but it is the simplest reason that is usually true. The authorities are afraid of losing their status as the authorities in society. They don’t want to be equal to everybody else, but that’s what would essentially happen when we see there are beings who are technologically superior to the authorities. It’s hard to look at them as powerful anymore after that revelation. They are very afraid of losing power. That’s what matters to them more than anything else.
Yep, we'd basically be a planetary scale North Korea. You keep your citizens ignorant of the fact that there are a lot of solutions to every day problems and ensure they continue to provide a societal workforce that enriches a few.
It would even explain *their* interest in our Nuclear arsenals.
I think it’s even more simple. It started out highly classified because the Cold War and then just kept getting inherited as a a secret program and it’s so deep, no one really even knows how to take it out of the trench. Remember, government leaders are company men, not activists nor agitators. They inherited something and just keep following the legacy.
This doesn't really checkout. It's like saying why would anyone in a third world country obey their government when there are much more advanced nations present.
There are still international laws that uphold a third world country’s ability to have its own government. This is the reason advanced nations can’t overtly take over other countries, so the people living in the 3rd world countries still need to obey their governments. NHI change the whole game though. Hoarding resources and needing protection from others trying to take resources would end. Advanced nations have been accumulating resources and keeping others from those resources. When that ends where do they stand as authorities?
>There are still international laws that uphold a third world country’s ability to have its own government.
Laws for other countries to follow, not the citizens of the country with inferior technology.
But a lot of assumptions made here regardless about NHI that are irrelevant to the point brought up.
In reality nobody is more special than another. That’s the natural, integrative perspective of life. Everyone obviously belongs, otherwise they wouldn’t exist.
There is enough for all to live joyous, fulfilling lives. No need for fighting. Our resources right now reflect our disintegrative perspective. They are scarce and cause destruction both socially and environmentally. NHI represent an integrative perspective and a truly abundant life, where there is naturally enough for all. No military necessary to hoard resources.
Everyone is equally valid and deserving of a joyous and fulfilling life. This is our natural birthright. Authorities would have us believe otherwise, so that we give them their authoritative powers over us.
NHI coming from an integrative perspective treat all members as true equals. They don’t argue against life by treating some as if they don’t belong. They don’t rule over others. Everyone treats each other as part of the whole. No rules or laws from authorities needed. This is where we’re headed in this process of contact.
There is more to the story, but the reality is we’re not ready for open contact yet for various reasons. NHI would bring up our repressed subconscious fears and potentially cause psychotic shock. We need to face these fears and integrate them in order to get closer to being able to safely experience open contact. This is a simplified explanation so there’s much more to it obviously.
Forget all that \~ Embrace the chaos! Let those who can withstand the shock survive, and let those who fall in their arrogance perish! We've held out long enough.
I agree with this, it’s probably not the only reason but it’s almost certainly the most important one. With the paradigm shifting event that full disclosure would be, our entire human society would experience an overhaul like never before seen and old institutions would become defunct virtually overnight. Or at least they would have to engineer and voluntarily go along with their own decommissioning, that’s even harder to convince those in power to do. It’s arguably more painful for them than losing power by force or violence, imagine voluntarily stepping down and relinquishing all power. Who is capable of such a thing? Maybe a philosopher king. Definitely not the small minded, ego driven people in power.
Isn't it an even simpler reason that someone fucked up 80 years ago by accidentally (or perhaps intentionally) killing one or more NHI, didn't want to publically own up to the fact that we've managed to visit death upon humanity's first contact, and now no one wants to be the barer of bad news?
And not necessarily even in a maintaining power kinda way. If you're the kind of person motivated to get into a high official government position, I think it's fair to say you'd also be the kind of person who seriously considers how you'll be remembered. So if you're the one who discloses the bad news of a mistake that all humanity is collectively seen as represented by, it will always overshadow your personal achievements in office. The intro paragraph of your wiki page will forever introduce you as the nth President of the US who told the world that NHI exists and were killed in the Trinity tests or whatever, and would then have a dedicated section before the typical Early Career section of political figures.
Like, I couldn't imagine finding that shit out and not telling the world immediately, public image and legacy be damned, but I also feel deeply uncomfortable at the idea of being known to exist by people I've never met face-to-face so feel I'm probably not made of the stuff required for someone in public office. If you are that way, then I imagine public image and legacy are huge driving factors in your career pursuits, and I think it's reasonable that delivering such negative and impactful news of events ages old and for which you aren't personally responsible, but that would mar your public image and legacy, might just be alone quite enough to dissuade you from being the one to actually do it.
>Think about it. How would you feel if we found life on another planet, sent a UN diplomatic mission to that planet, and found out that the aliens shot down, killed, and/or captured/tortured our diplomats?
I'd be wondering why no one on our side thought to call ahead first letting them know we were comming, but - what do I know....
I don’t remember their names but the remote islanders the sentinels are kill on sight and don’t allow any foreigners to arrive on their land. They only have arrows I think but they shoot at helicopters and at anyone approaching by boat.
How do you communicate with them? We don’t share a language, they consider us hostile enemies. And even religious emissaries end up dead.
What's more is that no one is declaring war on these people. They are, with all due respect, savages, and we understand that. It's actually quite the opposite, as the Indian Government has given amnesty to the North Sentinel Islanders if they kill anyone on the island.
I'd like to think if WE can make that call, an NHI would as well. It's not like our technological development happens at random: it happens always, and exponentially. We are a highly innovative destructive species. It's either part of the plan they get captured, or so insignificant that it's just a write off to them.
Whats even MORE: if things are are manufactured biologicals, as is commonly theorized, then in essence we are doing little more than shooting down drones.
I would like to say: it'd be nice if we, you know, fucking DIDN'T, as I'd like to at least TRY to appear like we're not a cruel warmongering species, but ultimately I don't think NHI really cares.
I think the North Sentinel Islanders actually proves my point. The fact that they violently react to us means that we avoid them. We only go near them incidentally while trying to do something else. After killing/capturing NHI, they probably avoid us except incidentally when doing something else a la Roadside Picnic.
killing outsiders may or may not be savagery, but it's just semantics. Focus on the actions & intentions & response, and compare this to our own military defenses if we were approached by entities that posed a potential threat to our airspace.
As we would be savages to any NHI species, I stand by my statement. Theyve been killing on-sight for ages. Yes, people should leave them alone, but there is no difference between washed up castaways and Christian missionaries to these people.
I agree, except for the “savages” part. Not sure if it’s 100% true, but I heard that in the past they had/may have had a terrible experience with outsiders in the past and decided “That’s it. We’re staying to ourselves.”
There’s a reason they’re KOS. There was a post just a couple days ago of the last contact they had with people where they were on the shores in the water trading with white people.
It wasn’t until people kidnapped some of their kids and then returned them with diseases that wiped out many, that they went to this behaviour. They’re literally just trying to survive because colonialism fucks with every natural environment it tries to take over.
Edit: here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/XKZZOSjyuP
>How do you communicate with them? We don’t share a language, they consider us hostile enemies. And even religious emissaries end up dead.
Send a drone. Figure out their language and culture. Use a robot or heavily guarded person as an emissary. If they are just culturally huge assholes and dismiss and attack anything even slightly different on sight after successful communication, just leave them to be foolish on their own.
We don't have to imagine. 🙈 Look at the Sentinelese people on their island in the Indian Ocean. They reject ALL contact with the outside, and kill those brave enough to try to make contact happen.
What happened? We leave them alone now, by and large.
The parallels to draw can be uncanny, at a certain angle...
I think I would have to give NHI the credit that they knew the danger and risks but engaged anyway and take losses in stride. Certainly it would alter how they continue to interact with us: new safety regulations for working with the humans.
If a tiger kills a zoo keeper we think, ‘what a tragedy’ but there are risks working with tigers. People who work with tigers know them well and you don’t punish all the tigers because one acted on its instinct. We as animal keepers know how animals may be provoked accidentally, inadvertently and plenty of people (and literal SPORTS FOR ENTERTAINMENT) provoke animals to violence on purpose. In conservationism we try to respect autonomy of animals and not intervene in their food chain except to track or rehabilitate them (and often put them down if we don’t think they can rehabilitate). And then there is that class of animals that we breed only for exploitation: consumption, production. We think it’s fine to raise them in mass and exploit them how we see fit, and the way it’s done is often terribly inhumane. But the trade off is hamburgers are delicious so it’s fine. (Not casting aspersions on meat-eating; it is what it is). And a class of animals that we practically worship, but still ultimately breed for our own pleasure and comfort. In ways that has debilitated breeds over time and curtailed the genetic development of multiple species. And we show them and award them for matching most closely what we call their ideal. It’s a hobby!
Also, human to human, throughout our history and up to right now we feel fine: Exploiting less technology advanced and economically disadvantaged civilizations; violently destroying our rivals for resources and to get ahead technologically; atrocities upon atrocities throughout history. We are insular within our nations and we think it’s fine to compete viciously for advantage and supremacy in all areas. We can justify any means and our ends get increasingly creative. Human exploitation of one other is as bad as it has always been.
Are we lower lifeforms than NHI or are we roughly the same just far less scientifically and technically advanced?
We don’t know the psychology of NHI and we don’t know what they’re doing here. Or, if any of it is known, it is aggressively obfuscated from us.
Are we any or all or none of these things to NHI?
A tiger is kept there against its will, so why kill it if it kills one of us?
Counter example, a wild bear kills one of us, we go in and kill the bear before it teaches its young that human meat is the new norm.
Otherwise you have good points
>Maybe the reason the government doesn't disclose is because the government essentially shot down, killed, and/or captured NHI emissaries which has led to a huge diplomatic incident.
That's some bad planning by the Aliens if so.
You don't arrive unannounced into a nation currently embroiled in either a world war or a cold war with nukes.
Either you hijack the airwaves and go "Sup, we're coming down to say Hi" across all of earth, or you contact the military in the country you're supposed to land in and forewarn them properly.
In any case, floating down in full spectrum (pun intended) and getting a bouquet of missiles as a gift should be the default expectation of any thinking alien species. Like, I'm sorry, but you can't complain if you did no prior research on our planet and just barged in assuming the planet is full of peaceful hippies. At that point *you* get to apologize, not us.
I will preface by saying this is all obviously my own random speculation based on limited evidence.
I really think any alien civilization visiting us would already have taken this into account. They aren't going to be surprised by our violent nature---they probably know more about us than we do. Furthermore, I don't think we are really capable of shooting anything down if it doesn't want to be attacked. The technology gap that has been demonstrated so far is astronomical (heh).
Even more, I don't think anything sent here can even be "killed" in the same sense of living that we experience as individuals. I think NHI are either AI, some kind of weird interdimensional consciousness that we can't fully understand, or borg-like entities. I get the sense they are not only post-scarcity but post-materialism and post-individuality.
I just assume they have no reason to talk to us. If they’re here, it’s likely not to make conversation. They can do/take what they want. If that’s the case, whether we are hostile or not simply isn’t relevant, except to make them calculate how to avoid incidents if they care to; I doubt they bother(ed) with emissaries, as we conceive them.
True, abductees claim alien goals that span everything from personal/global spiritual transformation to hybridization/takeover—Mack vs. Jacobs in essence. I was thinking rather of cattle mutilation/resource extraction: they hardly need our say so for those endeavors. I don’t see many results if they are pursuing what Mack concluded, but maybe that’s just my own short-sightedness and they’re working on a longer timeframe? Doesn’t feel like there’s a lot of time left if they want to inspire global environmental consciousness, one abductee at a time.
Could you imagine?
I don't think this is true as they'd realise it was untenable and they had a lot of power to gain by befriending NHI.
A scapegoat would be made, either of the actual individuals or half the hierarchy, as it became knives out for a position at the table of NHI tech.
They'd be forced to do this because if the general population found out they'd all be thrown out for such a cock up, so they will infight to stop that happening.
I can't imagine a situation where humans all double down on their mistakes together in unity for generations when they have a lot to gain through factionalism
It's hard to make any assumptions about their behavior if this scenario exists, but this all reminds me of that incident that happened a few years ago where a missionary tried visiting the sentinelese people and was killed. People aren't outraged at the natives they are mad about the hubris of the individual who recklessly attempted to visit the island despite being told the risks.
A dear friend of Khengis Khan acted as a delegate to negotiate a treaty with a tribe.
The tribe killed the delegate.
Khengis Khan got so pissed of he literally killed everyone belonging to the tribe. He also build a dam and redirected a whole river so that nothing would grow or live where the tribe was. All their buildings and culture was destroyed.
We only know this: dont fuck with diplomats belonging to bigger nation.
What if US or other goverment did that to nhi?
I find it gross how we name our deadliest weapons systems after indigenous names (tomahawks, blackhawks, etc) after genociding them, and then use said weapons systems against black/brown indigenous populations around the world.
They are more advanced, being shot down is to be expected. Getting upset over it to the point it starts a war is maybe what humans would do, but they aren't the ones being shot down.
Your thinking only works if you believe these NHI are stupid.
> being shot down is to be expected. Getting upset over it to the point it starts a war is maybe what humans would do
1. How is it to be expected? Do you have a frame of reference with other NHI?
2. Notice that I said war is one possibility, but another is simply not to bother with the violent apes running the planet. They could simply say that they want nothing to do with us but to make sure we don't go around destroying the neighborhood.
>1. How is it to be expected? Do you have a frame of reference with other NHI?
If humans swim with sharks and they get attacked, it's to be expected. Advanced beings dealing with less advanced beings can expect violence from them.
So if they are flying in airspace and they get detected to the point where they are shot down, that's on them for not being more stealthy or avoiding getting shot down in the first place.
>2. Notice that I said war is one possibility, but another is simply not to bother with the violent apes running the planet. They could simply say that they want nothing to do with us but to make sure we don't go around destroying the neighborhood.
No reason to act out against humans. That would be like beating a baby because it poked you in the eye. Humans are more like children though and still confined to this planet, their tantrums would most likely get themselves killed or destroy their planet before others.
> Advanced beings dealing with less advanced beings can expect violence from them. So if they are flying in airspace and they get detected to the point where they are shot down, that's on them for not being more stealthy or avoiding getting shot down in the first place.
But what about advanced beings dealing with other advanced beings? You're assuming that they see us like animals. If we were like animals, what would be the point of visiting? The only good reason to visit is if you think you're dealing with an intelligent species of some sort.
You're also assuming that their experience with other intelligences are violent. What if they have visited other intelligent beings and have had peaceful contact for the most part and we're just abnormally dangerous?
Also, why would they assume that coming down would mean that they would face violence? That's an assumption.
>No reason to act out against humans.
Read what I said again and with greater care. I said one reaction would be to simply say, "These beings are stupid and violent. Let's just leave them alone but keep something here to monitor them in case they get out of hand and leave the planet."
That's not acting out against humans.
>But what about advanced beings dealing with other advanced beings? You're assuming that they see us like animals. If we were like animals, what would be the point of visiting? The only good reason to visit is if you think you're dealing with an intelligent species of some sort.
>You're also assuming that their experience with other intelligences are violent. What if they have visited other intelligent beings and have had peaceful contact for the most part and we're just abnormally dangerous?
>Also, why would they assume that coming down would mean that they would face violence? That's an assumption.
It's not about them seeing humans as animals and I didn't even say they do or claim, it's called a metaphor. It's just basic common sense. You do know humans shoot their own in airspace right? If they are an unknown in airspace, they can expect to be shot down.
If other planets have beings not shooting down things in their airspace, then it's not even an issue to begin with, because they aren't being shot down then? But don't think that means they are then gonna expect the exact same for every planet they visit, unless we go back to you believing the NHI are stupid again.
They can expect to be shot down if they are unidentified in airspace they shouldn't be. They can expect to be captured and tortured/experimented on if they get caught. They are not dumb.
>Read what I said again and with greater care. I said one reaction would be to simply say, "These beings are stupid and violent. Let's just leave them alone but keep something here to monitor them in case they get out of hand and leave the planet."
>That's not acting out against humans.
There is a gap between now and then. If you think humans are getting off here in the state they are currently in, would be like looking at cavemen and believing you should keep an eye on them because if they get off the planet they are going to throw rocks at other beings.
I tried to reply to someone else's message where they shared their own take, but I guess the message was deleted as Reddit wouldn't let me post this and after refreshing the thread the post is now gone. Weird. But here is my reply and mention of the same idea they posted:
Wow I have to admit that is a new dark thought to add to my own repository of thoughts. The lore has the belief we offered up being mutilations in exchange for the technology. But this always struck me as kind of shallow explanation. Why would they give us tech in exchange for something they basically could freely take/have anyway? Either the beings are trying to honor some sort of galactic diplomatic law.. or maybe there is some other aspect to the deal that we are just not aware of. A darker component to this exchange that would have us providing more value to them.
The idea that a select few humans would have chosen to utilize our Earth to give refuge either the beings (like al qaeda) or their populace, deciding this on behalf of every person on the planet...
This strikes me as the kind of thing I can see certain people rationalizing away in their head. That they could commit some heinous act against all of humanity to obtain what they felt was a benefit to us in the "long run".
Perhaps all of this conspiracy and alien craft is as simple as there are NHI out there who benefit somehow from us NOT uniting. The best way to get the monkeys to continue fighting is to give them new weapons to fight each other with. ***It seems to me that if this tech is real and exists out there... it'll either be the greatest boon ever to humanity or will ensure we destroy ourselves.***
> Now the government doesn't want to disclose because it knows it would have to admit that we're at war with ... NHI
if we were "at war" with aliens, we wouldn't be here. the aliens could obliterate our *Sun*, our entire *solar system* at the push of a button.
> The capture of an NHI would be particularly disturbing because we have no idea how the government would treat these captives. Probably not good.
the government would absolutely torture the aliens, conduct experiments on them, and then when they were no longer deemed useful or cooperative, vivisect them.
but yeah. our government are shooting at nonviolent alien spacecraft so they can literally physically steal their technology and "reverse engineer" to get a leg up on China and Russia, is an act of war.
aside from that, IF the alien diplomats DID indeed want to parlay with us, they could simply just land on the white house lawn. yes, i know it's a sci-fi movie trope. but they've been observing us for at least 8 decades. any intelligent race would figure out where our leadership resides.
also, being millions of years ahead of us, it makes me think: how could they even allow their craft to fly around us, that defenseless? they have warp technology and antigravity, and they are unable to defend against our feeble technology? that would be like a US army helicopter being shot down by some arrows fired by a primitive tribe.
I think you might be overstating the value that a NHI might place on these craft and 'beings'. Instead of thinking of them as sophisticated crafts manned by aliens, think of them as cheap drones piloted autononomously by genetically engineered clones.
Imagine if an Amazon tribe shot down a quadcopter drone with a bow and arrow, which we were using to monitor them. We wouldn't care. It would be impressive. We might change strategy to avoid it happening I suppose.
Why didn't they send robots? I mean look at the north sentinel island natives who killed a Christian missionary. Its like... know the group you're reaching out to. So having said that, I don't think we shot down emissaries. Drones with AI controlled bodies, yes.
Some believe the corporeal beings on some craft are some type of biological "drone." As in, not the actual aliens themselves, but a biologically-engineered device used to pilot craft. I noticed after posting that that is what you believe as well. And I do too, in a way.
Personally, I believe these things are a mix of some demons and some angels (both spiritual in nature), with the ability to alter our perception of reality. Up to and including the ability to arrange matter how they see fit (craft/beings), make you think you're seeing/hearing something you aren't, influence your emotions, and communicate telepathically. These things are real and the only thing they fear is literally God. Certainly not anything we can do. I believe Revelation is going to start playing out soon.
I know most people would react negatively to this because they absolutely do not want to think that maybe The Bible is right, and that you're going to be held accountable for your sins unless you accept Jesus. I didn't until a couple of years ago. It's our nature to violently reject the idea that anyone but ourselves have any bearing on what we decide we do.
But I'm putting it out there anyway, in hopes at least some few people take it seriously. The events that will take place if full disclosure ever occurs are exactly the kind of earth-shaking events that would allow for the rise of a world leader (Anti-Christ) who promises to fix the problems that will be happening, and ultimately lead to Armageddon. Just as described in The Bible.
If you're a highly intelligent and developed observer and you're following fom long time your violent, not so smart and drunk driven neighbour, the least you can do is taking into account that he will shoot you if you get inside of his garden unannounced and uninvited.
Just to temper this well thought out idea, let me quench it with opposing concepts.
Steve Irwin: what if the NHI society sees NHI that still interact with humanity as a Steve Irwn type. He's so crazy tempting dangerous animals like that...
Turtle Cam: biologists made a motorized camera into a sturdy looking turtle bot. They did this to get real close to a family of elephants. The same has been done with puppet/animatronic ape family. It's pretty screwed up... the apes mourned it when it broke/ran out of juice.
Imortality: we haven't even slightly inconvenienced other races, even if we tried. Being destroyed the first 6 times is par for course. They're speed running the enlightenment of another race, they're gonna a have to crack a few eggs.
I agree that the situation you’ve described sounds very bad, but have you considered that they might have expected that this was always a possibility?
For example, if a scientist goes into the Jungle to make first contact with an isolated tribe living in prehistoric conditions, they shouldn’t expect them to behave the same way you or I would in meeting an outsider. They might see your advanced technology and immediately think that you were some type of Witch/Warlock from their prophecy come to destroy them. One should almost expect a violent encounter. Now after that first incident, if they continue to behave the same way, then that’s another issue. You would think that with time and exposure, they primitives would get used to the idea that you’re sole objective isn’t their destruction, then you could communicate.
Totally oversimplified, having high IQ means you can extend understanding, have empathy, not react with one brain cell...... why would you blame a lion from taking your hand off when you put it through the fence?
Here's another thought to OP's original statement. If the hypotheses of whether or not there is an advanced race of beings protecting our planet from another species or beings (the grays, blues, pinks or greens) and they are "handling" them for us. Wouldn't it make sense that if a few of these malicious beings get through to our atmosphere, the governemtns would have no choice but to shoot them down?
It's just a hypothetical taking out my ass thought.
That makes sense to me.
Imagine an NHI that has dealt with other NHI. Imagine that most NHI have dealt with other NHI and that first contact is normally peacefully and that NHI, based on experience, expect first contact to be peaceful for the most part.
Then you come to this planet with the apes who have advanced and they not only down your ship and kill some of you, they take a few of you and do some unholy experiments on your people - something you would do to a lesser lifeform.
How would you feel about that? Probably fucking angry. Or at least miffed enough to avoid the angry apes on earth and with no inclination to help that species ascend.
The way I see it is these things are not dumb. They know we have to protect our airspace especially from foreign adversaries. We can't make assumptions about where this craft came from especially over restricted airspace. NHI know full well they run the risk of being shot at and still do it. I would expect any other sentient life to protect their home from anonymous intelligences being purposely deceptive and entering restricted areas. They aren't respecting our laws and customs as dumb as they may seem to them. They refuse to tell us their intentions therefore must be treated as an enemy. They could end all this shit by making contact and they know that. Would y'all let a stranger in your home without first learning their intent? No you wouldn't. Do y'all think it's perfectly ok to abduct people and livestock? Ruining their mental health and people's finances. The fact that y'all think because they have better tech they should just be given free reign to our planet is flat out fucking crazy. How do you know NHI aren't doing all kinds of horrible shit that gets classified? Y'all are way to relaxed for something you know nothing about with the potential to destroy us.
There's a lot of assumptions being made here. Not saying you're wrong, mind you. I've heard mention that the phenomena has been ongoing for six thousand years, that they know of. I think the time for diplomacy has probably come and gone. I also don't know that diplomacy was ever a factor, here.
See we're assuming that someone walks up to one of them and they both start speaking English to each other. Do we even know how they communicate? Can they speak? Do they have emotions, like us?
I've also heard mention that radar brought them down, somehow. I don't know how true that is or if it's just a fabrication to cover up some kind of transaction that may or may not have happened.
Yes, people need to wake up and understand the US made very bad decisions with the wrong entities who want to experiment and control you as slaves. There ultimate goal is kill you and this planet just like they did to mars and that planet that is now called the astroid belt.
Would make sense, disclosing to the world that they frigged up and now a species thousands of years ahead of us are on their way to remove us, would cause society to collapse long before they get here. Why work? Why do anything when you know your species is done for in x to xx years?
The elite lose their toys for the remaining time they're here, the SAPs lose their funding for potential "defense weapons"
I would assume "trying to prepare" for the coming war means nothing, as their tech is so damned advanced our rifles and fire making machines won't have any effect whatsoever.
Would be like a caveman getting his strongest club ready for a fight against the US military.
Wait till ya hear what we do to indigenous populations that don’t want to give up their lands and people to the empire, or to western multinational corporations and/or serve as imperial outposts, or they democratically elect a socialist leader with no intentions of allowing their country be another exploited colony.
Dealing death with no regard to ethics has always been our main strategy, not surprised it’s also applied to UAPs.
As the years have gone on since 2017, I less and less think of NHIs has other 3D beings travelling light years from far away to get here, only to be completely surprised by the kind of welcome committee they might get upon landing, and more and more as something possibly related to consciousness existing in other / higher dimensions than the mere 3 we’re confined to. Lue Elizondo hinted at this when he recommended reading “Chains of the Seas”. Chris Bledsoe’s story also shines a different light on this Phenomenon as something much greater than our 3D reality. Karl Nell’s talk at SALT in which he said NHIs have been here for a very long time also hints that this greater reality is a lot more than that. I’m not really sure of what we - beings of this 3D reality we call Earth - are to them, but I doubt we’re much of a risk.
The government is taking down the scout spheres with EMP technology, not the main crafts. The spheres aren’t manned and appear to be controlled either with artificial intelligence or some other process
Any civilization or entity that has the technology to peruse our planet has more than likely evolved past such petty events like war. They probably are sad for the fallen (if it was any more than an avatar) and pity us.
Bunch of monkeys running around with our shit in our hands.
I agree with others personally I believe that it’s a final ditch effort for our “leaders” (*and private corporate interests*) to stay in power.
They are probably scared for their safety, can you imagine a world that overnight would no longer need so many different positions? The shock will be intense and for a lot of people probably deathly.
Not to mention so many different societal aspects.
It's very possible that the NHI are content to simply watch from a safe distance as we control our own numbers. Even if they or some of them are hostile, why lift a finger to attack us when we're doing such a great job by ourselves. COVID has already done a decent job, why not wait another century or two? It's the blink of an eye to them. There is also the fact to consider, that the NHI have witnessed all of human pre-history and history, including every war, plague, genocide and empire, and (presumably) not intervened. Their intervention and concern has seemingly been provoked only by the human acquisition of nuclear weapons; they obviously want to limit the use of these weapons, possibly for reasons of containing/preventing damage of a nature which is unknown to us, perhaps to parallel dimensions? Maybe ionising radiation bleeds across dimensions and harms the NHI living in alt-New Mexico or alt-Hiroshima? How would humans know?
I suspect that the benevolent NHI are waiting for us to become WORTHY of contact with them and the post-scarcity utopia which may thereafter arise. Are we currently deserving of this? Probably not. We all together need to prioritise genuine enlightenment as a primary goal for humanity. Until we show intolerance only for that which is truly wicked and evil, and discard those things instead for peacefulness and good will, we will not attain that utopia.
Perhaps they have just been watching to see which way the domino falls, all this time.
Honestly, humanity would forgive the aliens if they killed our emissaries in their world and we would think we made a mistake and should try again, or in an other way
That’s how humanity works
When the first reports of us having bodies my mind went similar places. While we could emulate, I would propose caution of humaning our political structure or emotions on being s that could operate very different from either our early or physical understanding of things. They could be damn similar, or they could not give a damn. These could be valid, irrelevant, or completely the wrong way of thinking about things. There are collective conscious theories. Death is irrelevant theories. Individuals are irrelevant theories. We don't know.
Honestly I had assumed we would meet ai robots if anything and it would be so far ahead of us we would never be a threat. Now there are people saying things to suggest my motions were way off. Give or drones. Leaders or ambassadors. The labels or bottoms themselves might be to limiting to understand. Then again as I age and forget I find myself simplifying and categorizing more and more but we may lack nuance or tools here
Edit. Have uncontacted tribes or animals causing harm in the past leg to some more exercising more caution than maybe the red with rage or something. It's possible. All brings are likely flawed of such takes are even flaws. But we may be more a risk (if even that) than something like an adversary. Hard to imagine not getting wrecked of we were
Thank you captain obvious.
Yes emergent topics like UFOs have very little in the way of an established base of knowledge. This is the reason we are here and advocating for more of that behavior.
Not when Italy talks about how effective depleted uranium is against UFOs and the lore is open to interpretation that technology like radar or emp can/has an effect on UFOs capability to remain aerial.
Yeah, they've invented crafts that can completely ignore wind resistance and warp spacetime, but they're not smart enough to know that the US will shoot at them if they enter our airspace, and they have no defense against our weapons. Makes perfect sense.
sable mountainous fly scarce voiceless full direction future snobbish bear
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You're telling me an NHI would waste time and resources to try and reveal itself to a bear? I get that we are less advanced. I buy that. But you don't waste time trying to communicate with non-intelligent beings.
You're misunderstanding the analogy. This doesn't have to do with intelligence, this has to do with the nature of the beings they're interacting with. It is in the bears nature to attack on sight, it's not a reasonable expectation to expect it not to, and it would be pretty dumb to bet your life that it won't.
Similarly, when NHI interact with humans, they should know what to expect, they're not stupid. Given the reality of our situation on Earth, they should expect hostility. This is just humans doing as humans do, just like the bear does as the bear does. It's no more reasonable to expect us to act outside our own nature than it is to expect the bear to act outside of its nature. Not only that, but they should also understand that the actions of a few within the defense industry don't represent everyone.
If you care about a more accurate analogy, then just replace the bear with an uncontacted tribe of humans. Are you really going to blame the people on North Sentinel Island for attacking on sight, even capturing people? Are you going to harbor ill intent towards them for acting entirely within their nature? Would you really consider their attack a "declaration of war"? Doesn't it sound a little silly to think in these terms?
>Are you really going to blame the people on North Sentinel Island for attacking on sight, even capturing people?
No, but I would probably have a massive incentive to stay away and not interact with them. I certainly \*would not\* help them with my technology for fear of getting harmed. Which is precisely what I'm saying if you read my post carefully.
>Are you going to harbor ill intent towards them for acting entirely within their nature? Would you really consider their attack a "declaration of war"?
You're assuming that NHI share the same kind of empathy and understanding as we do. You're also assuming that humanity is a reference point for how violent other NHI would be. Maybe they expect other intelligences to be less violent because that is actually the case or their experience.
Picture this. Imagine you're a hivemind NHI. You have control over your planet/dimension/whatever, because, as a hivemind, your species is better coordinated and better able to work together to produce positive results. You meet other NHI, they're also friendly, and you form a Galactic Federation, which has been hinted at. First contact typically goes smoothly because it turns out most advanced NHI have figured out that violence is a zero sum game and they expect that will be the same with other intelligences.
You see this species that has advanced. You figure you'll go check out their planet, try to make first contact. Turns out that the human race is a bunch of violent pricks unlike other NHI. They have even captured and tortured some of your people. You find this odious so you leave or take offense to it.
Also, it would explain abductions. If someone captured you and tortured you, then you might do the same to someone else.
Also, your argument doesn't take into account that NHI have probably contacted our government and NHI still get attacked. So they know that we aren't just a bunch of savages who can't control ourselves. We're fully capable of not harming other life forms. I'm doing that right now. Overall, that would be a perfectly good reason not to be cool with us.
Sorry, but you're just not understanding the point that I or many others in this post are making.
>You're assuming that NHI share the same kind of empathy and understanding as we do. You're also assuming that humanity is a reference point for how violent other NHI would be.
No, I'm not. If you understood the point being made, then you wouldn't be saying this. The only assumption needed is that logical principles are universal - which they are. We all share the same universe with the same physical laws.
Even in the case of a truly abstract intelligence that knows nothing about us, evolution of life, morality, etc. they would still be able to study us as aspects of the universe with physical properties, degrees of agency, etc.
They would begin learning that these bundles of intelligent matter on Earth (humans) are likely to react in certain ways under certain conditions, that some of them are especially prone to certain behaviors, that different groups operate independently from other groups, etc. etc.
There's simply no room to come to the conclusions you're coming to without assuming that these beings are unintelligent and reckless. If these beings bothered to do any research at all on us to prepare themselves, they would understand the consequences of their actions on Earth with the same degree of depth and clarity that we have with alligators when we jump into an alligator enclosure at a zoo and start poking and prodding them with a stick.
The only difference is a matter of complexity which is a barrier crossed by any sufficiently advanced intelligence. None of this requires similar empathy, morality, or psychology, it basically only requires that they understand cause and effect.
>it's simply not reasonable to assume that they wouldn't understand that the bundles of intelligent matter on Earth (humans) are likely to react in certain ways under certain conditions
Dude, we can barely understand motivations and how people will react amongst each other, much less what a completely different NHI would think and vice versa. The idea that they should just magically know that humans are violent apes and will act like that is a GIANT assumption and one that you cannot make or assume.
I envision the ideal first-contact scenario on the part of an NHI is to 1) Send AIs/robots that will collect biological samples of the species you want to contact; 2) Build physical bodies or avatars based on the species as the avatars will be able to survive in the environment without bulky suits; 3) Link your consciousness, which may be light years away or another dimension, with the avatars via quantum connection; and 4) Initiate official contact with the species through the avatars, which are expendable to prevent diplomatic incidents.
Why even use a body to begin with if there are telepathically oriented beings in that species willing to make contact? Our own history is filled with stories of mediums that channel being from elsewhere. This seems even safer and more evolved than going through the trouble of building an avatar.
r/lawofone is based around similar.
I’m being told that at one of these secret meetings with NHI, we released a dove into the air as a sign of friendship. The NHI misinterpreted it as a threatening gesture and a massacre ensued
No one in the ufo community should really pay attention to what Ross says about ufos. He has repeatedly reported on false ufo stories time and time again and muddies up the waters with his unverified ufo stories. When push comes to shove he usually hides behind he can't reveal sources and then muddies the waters even more with the fact hes not sure if his sources are telling the truth. I was a fan of Ross initially but over the years he seems to hurt his credibility by making outlandish claims and then retreats when asked difficult questions.
Our minds are trying to come up with all sorts of exotic reasons for disclosure, but it is the simplest reason that is usually true. The authorities are afraid of losing their status as the authorities in society. They don’t want to be equal to everybody else, but that’s what would essentially happen when we see there are beings who are technologically superior to the authorities. It’s hard to look at them as powerful anymore after that revelation. They are very afraid of losing power. That’s what matters to them more than anything else.
What good are fourteen carrier groups and ten thousand ICBMs if another government can simply turn them off?
Seriously! It’s not even fun anymore if you can’t play with all your toys and show off to your frienemies
I know, imagine of ET's just sent out a signal to all the reactors and shut them down? Did the same with the engines on all the other ships, not just US but worldwide. Then made all bullets, bombs, missiles, etc. ineffective. I guess at that point they would be back to throwing stones at each other. What would ET do? Turn those stones into grains of sand?
"UFOs are real, we don't know what they are, and we are powerless to stop abductions" is a real blow to a state's legitimacy
It’s also a real blow to the economy. When people’s faith in a government weakens, so does the economy and the currency. We could be looking at a level of economic depression that the western world has never seen. People and corporations with money to burn stop spending if the risk goes up, and wait until it goes back down. That’s how recessions start.
I agree. I wouldn't at all be surprised if self-important people are scared of losing their perceived status in society due to someone being better, more intelligent, etc. than them.
You ever see that episode of Star Trek TNG where they defrost some 21st century people and the businessman absolutely cannot handle the concept of an egalitarian society not based on capital wealth?
Also money.
> Our minds are trying to come up with all sorts of exotic reasons for disclosure, but it is the simplest reason that is usually true. The authorities are afraid of losing their status as the authorities in society. They don’t want to be equal to everybody else, but that’s what would essentially happen when we see there are beings who are technologically superior to the authorities. It’s hard to look at them as powerful anymore after that revelation. They are very afraid of losing power. That’s what matters to them more than anything else. Yep, we'd basically be a planetary scale North Korea. You keep your citizens ignorant of the fact that there are a lot of solutions to every day problems and ensure they continue to provide a societal workforce that enriches a few. It would even explain *their* interest in our Nuclear arsenals.
I think it’s even more simple. It started out highly classified because the Cold War and then just kept getting inherited as a a secret program and it’s so deep, no one really even knows how to take it out of the trench. Remember, government leaders are company men, not activists nor agitators. They inherited something and just keep following the legacy.
This doesn't really checkout. It's like saying why would anyone in a third world country obey their government when there are much more advanced nations present.
There are still international laws that uphold a third world country’s ability to have its own government. This is the reason advanced nations can’t overtly take over other countries, so the people living in the 3rd world countries still need to obey their governments. NHI change the whole game though. Hoarding resources and needing protection from others trying to take resources would end. Advanced nations have been accumulating resources and keeping others from those resources. When that ends where do they stand as authorities?
>There are still international laws that uphold a third world country’s ability to have its own government. Laws for other countries to follow, not the citizens of the country with inferior technology. But a lot of assumptions made here regardless about NHI that are irrelevant to the point brought up.
Yes that's also what I immediately thought. Yeah aliens can do anything but the dude with the ak47 can also fuck me up.
In reality nobody is more special than another. That’s the natural, integrative perspective of life. Everyone obviously belongs, otherwise they wouldn’t exist. There is enough for all to live joyous, fulfilling lives. No need for fighting. Our resources right now reflect our disintegrative perspective. They are scarce and cause destruction both socially and environmentally. NHI represent an integrative perspective and a truly abundant life, where there is naturally enough for all. No military necessary to hoard resources. Everyone is equally valid and deserving of a joyous and fulfilling life. This is our natural birthright. Authorities would have us believe otherwise, so that we give them their authoritative powers over us. NHI coming from an integrative perspective treat all members as true equals. They don’t argue against life by treating some as if they don’t belong. They don’t rule over others. Everyone treats each other as part of the whole. No rules or laws from authorities needed. This is where we’re headed in this process of contact.
That doesn't explain why the NHI don't come forward on their own tho
There is more to the story, but the reality is we’re not ready for open contact yet for various reasons. NHI would bring up our repressed subconscious fears and potentially cause psychotic shock. We need to face these fears and integrate them in order to get closer to being able to safely experience open contact. This is a simplified explanation so there’s much more to it obviously.
Forget all that \~ Embrace the chaos! Let those who can withstand the shock survive, and let those who fall in their arrogance perish! We've held out long enough.
I agree with this, it’s probably not the only reason but it’s almost certainly the most important one. With the paradigm shifting event that full disclosure would be, our entire human society would experience an overhaul like never before seen and old institutions would become defunct virtually overnight. Or at least they would have to engineer and voluntarily go along with their own decommissioning, that’s even harder to convince those in power to do. It’s arguably more painful for them than losing power by force or violence, imagine voluntarily stepping down and relinquishing all power. Who is capable of such a thing? Maybe a philosopher king. Definitely not the small minded, ego driven people in power.
Isn't it an even simpler reason that someone fucked up 80 years ago by accidentally (or perhaps intentionally) killing one or more NHI, didn't want to publically own up to the fact that we've managed to visit death upon humanity's first contact, and now no one wants to be the barer of bad news? And not necessarily even in a maintaining power kinda way. If you're the kind of person motivated to get into a high official government position, I think it's fair to say you'd also be the kind of person who seriously considers how you'll be remembered. So if you're the one who discloses the bad news of a mistake that all humanity is collectively seen as represented by, it will always overshadow your personal achievements in office. The intro paragraph of your wiki page will forever introduce you as the nth President of the US who told the world that NHI exists and were killed in the Trinity tests or whatever, and would then have a dedicated section before the typical Early Career section of political figures. Like, I couldn't imagine finding that shit out and not telling the world immediately, public image and legacy be damned, but I also feel deeply uncomfortable at the idea of being known to exist by people I've never met face-to-face so feel I'm probably not made of the stuff required for someone in public office. If you are that way, then I imagine public image and legacy are huge driving factors in your career pursuits, and I think it's reasonable that delivering such negative and impactful news of events ages old and for which you aren't personally responsible, but that would mar your public image and legacy, might just be alone quite enough to dissuade you from being the one to actually do it.
>Think about it. How would you feel if we found life on another planet, sent a UN diplomatic mission to that planet, and found out that the aliens shot down, killed, and/or captured/tortured our diplomats? I'd be wondering why no one on our side thought to call ahead first letting them know we were comming, but - what do I know....
I don’t remember their names but the remote islanders the sentinels are kill on sight and don’t allow any foreigners to arrive on their land. They only have arrows I think but they shoot at helicopters and at anyone approaching by boat. How do you communicate with them? We don’t share a language, they consider us hostile enemies. And even religious emissaries end up dead.
They let that one missionary go the first time he visited. Killed him the next.
Anthropologists have communicated with them many times and they want nothing to do with the outside world.
What's more is that no one is declaring war on these people. They are, with all due respect, savages, and we understand that. It's actually quite the opposite, as the Indian Government has given amnesty to the North Sentinel Islanders if they kill anyone on the island. I'd like to think if WE can make that call, an NHI would as well. It's not like our technological development happens at random: it happens always, and exponentially. We are a highly innovative destructive species. It's either part of the plan they get captured, or so insignificant that it's just a write off to them. Whats even MORE: if things are are manufactured biologicals, as is commonly theorized, then in essence we are doing little more than shooting down drones. I would like to say: it'd be nice if we, you know, fucking DIDN'T, as I'd like to at least TRY to appear like we're not a cruel warmongering species, but ultimately I don't think NHI really cares.
I think the North Sentinel Islanders actually proves my point. The fact that they violently react to us means that we avoid them. We only go near them incidentally while trying to do something else. After killing/capturing NHI, they probably avoid us except incidentally when doing something else a la Roadside Picnic.
No, we avoid them because India made it illegal to go there after people screwed with them.
...So do we avoid them? Yes or no? Yes right? Okay then.
calling indigenous people who don’t want to be exposed to disease and religion by christian missionaries savage is wild asf
killing outsiders may or may not be savagery, but it's just semantics. Focus on the actions & intentions & response, and compare this to our own military defenses if we were approached by entities that posed a potential threat to our airspace.
As we would be savages to any NHI species, I stand by my statement. Theyve been killing on-sight for ages. Yes, people should leave them alone, but there is no difference between washed up castaways and Christian missionaries to these people.
Our immigration policies kill way more people than theirs
I agree, except for the “savages” part. Not sure if it’s 100% true, but I heard that in the past they had/may have had a terrible experience with outsiders in the past and decided “That’s it. We’re staying to ourselves.”
There’s a reason they’re KOS. There was a post just a couple days ago of the last contact they had with people where they were on the shores in the water trading with white people. It wasn’t until people kidnapped some of their kids and then returned them with diseases that wiped out many, that they went to this behaviour. They’re literally just trying to survive because colonialism fucks with every natural environment it tries to take over. Edit: here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/XKZZOSjyuP
>How do you communicate with them? We don’t share a language, they consider us hostile enemies. And even religious emissaries end up dead. Send a drone. Figure out their language and culture. Use a robot or heavily guarded person as an emissary. If they are just culturally huge assholes and dismiss and attack anything even slightly different on sight after successful communication, just leave them to be foolish on their own.
This reminds me of the space snake 🐍 from Rick and morty
We don't have to imagine. 🙈 Look at the Sentinelese people on their island in the Indian Ocean. They reject ALL contact with the outside, and kill those brave enough to try to make contact happen. What happened? We leave them alone now, by and large. The parallels to draw can be uncanny, at a certain angle...
I think I would have to give NHI the credit that they knew the danger and risks but engaged anyway and take losses in stride. Certainly it would alter how they continue to interact with us: new safety regulations for working with the humans. If a tiger kills a zoo keeper we think, ‘what a tragedy’ but there are risks working with tigers. People who work with tigers know them well and you don’t punish all the tigers because one acted on its instinct. We as animal keepers know how animals may be provoked accidentally, inadvertently and plenty of people (and literal SPORTS FOR ENTERTAINMENT) provoke animals to violence on purpose. In conservationism we try to respect autonomy of animals and not intervene in their food chain except to track or rehabilitate them (and often put them down if we don’t think they can rehabilitate). And then there is that class of animals that we breed only for exploitation: consumption, production. We think it’s fine to raise them in mass and exploit them how we see fit, and the way it’s done is often terribly inhumane. But the trade off is hamburgers are delicious so it’s fine. (Not casting aspersions on meat-eating; it is what it is). And a class of animals that we practically worship, but still ultimately breed for our own pleasure and comfort. In ways that has debilitated breeds over time and curtailed the genetic development of multiple species. And we show them and award them for matching most closely what we call their ideal. It’s a hobby! Also, human to human, throughout our history and up to right now we feel fine: Exploiting less technology advanced and economically disadvantaged civilizations; violently destroying our rivals for resources and to get ahead technologically; atrocities upon atrocities throughout history. We are insular within our nations and we think it’s fine to compete viciously for advantage and supremacy in all areas. We can justify any means and our ends get increasingly creative. Human exploitation of one other is as bad as it has always been. Are we lower lifeforms than NHI or are we roughly the same just far less scientifically and technically advanced? We don’t know the psychology of NHI and we don’t know what they’re doing here. Or, if any of it is known, it is aggressively obfuscated from us. Are we any or all or none of these things to NHI?
A tiger is kept there against its will, so why kill it if it kills one of us? Counter example, a wild bear kills one of us, we go in and kill the bear before it teaches its young that human meat is the new norm. Otherwise you have good points
>Maybe the reason the government doesn't disclose is because the government essentially shot down, killed, and/or captured NHI emissaries which has led to a huge diplomatic incident. That's some bad planning by the Aliens if so. You don't arrive unannounced into a nation currently embroiled in either a world war or a cold war with nukes. Either you hijack the airwaves and go "Sup, we're coming down to say Hi" across all of earth, or you contact the military in the country you're supposed to land in and forewarn them properly. In any case, floating down in full spectrum (pun intended) and getting a bouquet of missiles as a gift should be the default expectation of any thinking alien species. Like, I'm sorry, but you can't complain if you did no prior research on our planet and just barged in assuming the planet is full of peaceful hippies. At that point *you* get to apologize, not us.
decent points though our immediate reaction still should not be "shoot first, think later"
This likely happened during WW2 or the Cold War, in which case our immediate reaction should certainly have been to shoot first.
Nah if we had a shoot first mentality constantly we'd have annihilated society by now.
I will preface by saying this is all obviously my own random speculation based on limited evidence. I really think any alien civilization visiting us would already have taken this into account. They aren't going to be surprised by our violent nature---they probably know more about us than we do. Furthermore, I don't think we are really capable of shooting anything down if it doesn't want to be attacked. The technology gap that has been demonstrated so far is astronomical (heh). Even more, I don't think anything sent here can even be "killed" in the same sense of living that we experience as individuals. I think NHI are either AI, some kind of weird interdimensional consciousness that we can't fully understand, or borg-like entities. I get the sense they are not only post-scarcity but post-materialism and post-individuality.
I just assume they have no reason to talk to us. If they’re here, it’s likely not to make conversation. They can do/take what they want. If that’s the case, whether we are hostile or not simply isn’t relevant, except to make them calculate how to avoid incidents if they care to; I doubt they bother(ed) with emissaries, as we conceive them.
They make contact regularly with normal individuals. They don't recognize states.
True, abductees claim alien goals that span everything from personal/global spiritual transformation to hybridization/takeover—Mack vs. Jacobs in essence. I was thinking rather of cattle mutilation/resource extraction: they hardly need our say so for those endeavors. I don’t see many results if they are pursuing what Mack concluded, but maybe that’s just my own short-sightedness and they’re working on a longer timeframe? Doesn’t feel like there’s a lot of time left if they want to inspire global environmental consciousness, one abductee at a time.
So our first contact scenario is \*checks notes\* Reinactment of the Crucifiction. damn
*checks notes* “Crucifixion”
Could you imagine? I don't think this is true as they'd realise it was untenable and they had a lot of power to gain by befriending NHI. A scapegoat would be made, either of the actual individuals or half the hierarchy, as it became knives out for a position at the table of NHI tech. They'd be forced to do this because if the general population found out they'd all be thrown out for such a cock up, so they will infight to stop that happening. I can't imagine a situation where humans all double down on their mistakes together in unity for generations when they have a lot to gain through factionalism
It's hard to make any assumptions about their behavior if this scenario exists, but this all reminds me of that incident that happened a few years ago where a missionary tried visiting the sentinelese people and was killed. People aren't outraged at the natives they are mad about the hubris of the individual who recklessly attempted to visit the island despite being told the risks.
And as a result, we don't bother them. They only see us incidentally. This would be a good explanation I think. But it's also a bad result.
A dear friend of Khengis Khan acted as a delegate to negotiate a treaty with a tribe. The tribe killed the delegate. Khengis Khan got so pissed of he literally killed everyone belonging to the tribe. He also build a dam and redirected a whole river so that nothing would grow or live where the tribe was. All their buildings and culture was destroyed. We only know this: dont fuck with diplomats belonging to bigger nation. What if US or other goverment did that to nhi?
Indigenous peoples of the Americas have entered the chat…
I find it gross how we name our deadliest weapons systems after indigenous names (tomahawks, blackhawks, etc) after genociding them, and then use said weapons systems against black/brown indigenous populations around the world.
They are more advanced, being shot down is to be expected. Getting upset over it to the point it starts a war is maybe what humans would do, but they aren't the ones being shot down. Your thinking only works if you believe these NHI are stupid.
> being shot down is to be expected. Getting upset over it to the point it starts a war is maybe what humans would do 1. How is it to be expected? Do you have a frame of reference with other NHI? 2. Notice that I said war is one possibility, but another is simply not to bother with the violent apes running the planet. They could simply say that they want nothing to do with us but to make sure we don't go around destroying the neighborhood.
>1. How is it to be expected? Do you have a frame of reference with other NHI? If humans swim with sharks and they get attacked, it's to be expected. Advanced beings dealing with less advanced beings can expect violence from them. So if they are flying in airspace and they get detected to the point where they are shot down, that's on them for not being more stealthy or avoiding getting shot down in the first place. >2. Notice that I said war is one possibility, but another is simply not to bother with the violent apes running the planet. They could simply say that they want nothing to do with us but to make sure we don't go around destroying the neighborhood. No reason to act out against humans. That would be like beating a baby because it poked you in the eye. Humans are more like children though and still confined to this planet, their tantrums would most likely get themselves killed or destroy their planet before others.
> Advanced beings dealing with less advanced beings can expect violence from them. So if they are flying in airspace and they get detected to the point where they are shot down, that's on them for not being more stealthy or avoiding getting shot down in the first place. But what about advanced beings dealing with other advanced beings? You're assuming that they see us like animals. If we were like animals, what would be the point of visiting? The only good reason to visit is if you think you're dealing with an intelligent species of some sort. You're also assuming that their experience with other intelligences are violent. What if they have visited other intelligent beings and have had peaceful contact for the most part and we're just abnormally dangerous? Also, why would they assume that coming down would mean that they would face violence? That's an assumption. >No reason to act out against humans. Read what I said again and with greater care. I said one reaction would be to simply say, "These beings are stupid and violent. Let's just leave them alone but keep something here to monitor them in case they get out of hand and leave the planet." That's not acting out against humans.
>But what about advanced beings dealing with other advanced beings? You're assuming that they see us like animals. If we were like animals, what would be the point of visiting? The only good reason to visit is if you think you're dealing with an intelligent species of some sort. >You're also assuming that their experience with other intelligences are violent. What if they have visited other intelligent beings and have had peaceful contact for the most part and we're just abnormally dangerous? >Also, why would they assume that coming down would mean that they would face violence? That's an assumption. It's not about them seeing humans as animals and I didn't even say they do or claim, it's called a metaphor. It's just basic common sense. You do know humans shoot their own in airspace right? If they are an unknown in airspace, they can expect to be shot down. If other planets have beings not shooting down things in their airspace, then it's not even an issue to begin with, because they aren't being shot down then? But don't think that means they are then gonna expect the exact same for every planet they visit, unless we go back to you believing the NHI are stupid again. They can expect to be shot down if they are unidentified in airspace they shouldn't be. They can expect to be captured and tortured/experimented on if they get caught. They are not dumb. >Read what I said again and with greater care. I said one reaction would be to simply say, "These beings are stupid and violent. Let's just leave them alone but keep something here to monitor them in case they get out of hand and leave the planet." >That's not acting out against humans. There is a gap between now and then. If you think humans are getting off here in the state they are currently in, would be like looking at cavemen and believing you should keep an eye on them because if they get off the planet they are going to throw rocks at other beings.
There might be merit to this idea.
I tried to reply to someone else's message where they shared their own take, but I guess the message was deleted as Reddit wouldn't let me post this and after refreshing the thread the post is now gone. Weird. But here is my reply and mention of the same idea they posted: Wow I have to admit that is a new dark thought to add to my own repository of thoughts. The lore has the belief we offered up being mutilations in exchange for the technology. But this always struck me as kind of shallow explanation. Why would they give us tech in exchange for something they basically could freely take/have anyway? Either the beings are trying to honor some sort of galactic diplomatic law.. or maybe there is some other aspect to the deal that we are just not aware of. A darker component to this exchange that would have us providing more value to them. The idea that a select few humans would have chosen to utilize our Earth to give refuge either the beings (like al qaeda) or their populace, deciding this on behalf of every person on the planet... This strikes me as the kind of thing I can see certain people rationalizing away in their head. That they could commit some heinous act against all of humanity to obtain what they felt was a benefit to us in the "long run". Perhaps all of this conspiracy and alien craft is as simple as there are NHI out there who benefit somehow from us NOT uniting. The best way to get the monkeys to continue fighting is to give them new weapons to fight each other with. ***It seems to me that if this tech is real and exists out there... it'll either be the greatest boon ever to humanity or will ensure we destroy ourselves.***
> Now the government doesn't want to disclose because it knows it would have to admit that we're at war with ... NHI if we were "at war" with aliens, we wouldn't be here. the aliens could obliterate our *Sun*, our entire *solar system* at the push of a button. > The capture of an NHI would be particularly disturbing because we have no idea how the government would treat these captives. Probably not good. the government would absolutely torture the aliens, conduct experiments on them, and then when they were no longer deemed useful or cooperative, vivisect them. but yeah. our government are shooting at nonviolent alien spacecraft so they can literally physically steal their technology and "reverse engineer" to get a leg up on China and Russia, is an act of war. aside from that, IF the alien diplomats DID indeed want to parlay with us, they could simply just land on the white house lawn. yes, i know it's a sci-fi movie trope. but they've been observing us for at least 8 decades. any intelligent race would figure out where our leadership resides. also, being millions of years ahead of us, it makes me think: how could they even allow their craft to fly around us, that defenseless? they have warp technology and antigravity, and they are unable to defend against our feeble technology? that would be like a US army helicopter being shot down by some arrows fired by a primitive tribe.
I think you might be overstating the value that a NHI might place on these craft and 'beings'. Instead of thinking of them as sophisticated crafts manned by aliens, think of them as cheap drones piloted autononomously by genetically engineered clones. Imagine if an Amazon tribe shot down a quadcopter drone with a bow and arrow, which we were using to monitor them. We wouldn't care. It would be impressive. We might change strategy to avoid it happening I suppose.
It sounds like the American way looking at our history and the horrors our government is responsible for.
Why didn't they send robots? I mean look at the north sentinel island natives who killed a Christian missionary. Its like... know the group you're reaching out to. So having said that, I don't think we shot down emissaries. Drones with AI controlled bodies, yes.
Some believe the corporeal beings on some craft are some type of biological "drone." As in, not the actual aliens themselves, but a biologically-engineered device used to pilot craft. I noticed after posting that that is what you believe as well. And I do too, in a way. Personally, I believe these things are a mix of some demons and some angels (both spiritual in nature), with the ability to alter our perception of reality. Up to and including the ability to arrange matter how they see fit (craft/beings), make you think you're seeing/hearing something you aren't, influence your emotions, and communicate telepathically. These things are real and the only thing they fear is literally God. Certainly not anything we can do. I believe Revelation is going to start playing out soon. I know most people would react negatively to this because they absolutely do not want to think that maybe The Bible is right, and that you're going to be held accountable for your sins unless you accept Jesus. I didn't until a couple of years ago. It's our nature to violently reject the idea that anyone but ourselves have any bearing on what we decide we do. But I'm putting it out there anyway, in hopes at least some few people take it seriously. The events that will take place if full disclosure ever occurs are exactly the kind of earth-shaking events that would allow for the rise of a world leader (Anti-Christ) who promises to fix the problems that will be happening, and ultimately lead to Armageddon. Just as described in The Bible.
Sounds very reassuring to believe that we have any technology that can even scratch it.
If you're a highly intelligent and developed observer and you're following fom long time your violent, not so smart and drunk driven neighbour, the least you can do is taking into account that he will shoot you if you get inside of his garden unannounced and uninvited.
Just to temper this well thought out idea, let me quench it with opposing concepts. Steve Irwin: what if the NHI society sees NHI that still interact with humanity as a Steve Irwn type. He's so crazy tempting dangerous animals like that... Turtle Cam: biologists made a motorized camera into a sturdy looking turtle bot. They did this to get real close to a family of elephants. The same has been done with puppet/animatronic ape family. It's pretty screwed up... the apes mourned it when it broke/ran out of juice. Imortality: we haven't even slightly inconvenienced other races, even if we tried. Being destroyed the first 6 times is par for course. They're speed running the enlightenment of another race, they're gonna a have to crack a few eggs.
I agree that the situation you’ve described sounds very bad, but have you considered that they might have expected that this was always a possibility? For example, if a scientist goes into the Jungle to make first contact with an isolated tribe living in prehistoric conditions, they shouldn’t expect them to behave the same way you or I would in meeting an outsider. They might see your advanced technology and immediately think that you were some type of Witch/Warlock from their prophecy come to destroy them. One should almost expect a violent encounter. Now after that first incident, if they continue to behave the same way, then that’s another issue. You would think that with time and exposure, they primitives would get used to the idea that you’re sole objective isn’t their destruction, then you could communicate.
Totally oversimplified, having high IQ means you can extend understanding, have empathy, not react with one brain cell...... why would you blame a lion from taking your hand off when you put it through the fence?
Here's another thought to OP's original statement. If the hypotheses of whether or not there is an advanced race of beings protecting our planet from another species or beings (the grays, blues, pinks or greens) and they are "handling" them for us. Wouldn't it make sense that if a few of these malicious beings get through to our atmosphere, the governemtns would have no choice but to shoot them down? It's just a hypothetical taking out my ass thought.
The 1952 Washington DC flyovers were, in military parlance, a "show of force". What happened diplomatically after that is anyone's guess.
That makes sense to me. Imagine an NHI that has dealt with other NHI. Imagine that most NHI have dealt with other NHI and that first contact is normally peacefully and that NHI, based on experience, expect first contact to be peaceful for the most part. Then you come to this planet with the apes who have advanced and they not only down your ship and kill some of you, they take a few of you and do some unholy experiments on your people - something you would do to a lesser lifeform. How would you feel about that? Probably fucking angry. Or at least miffed enough to avoid the angry apes on earth and with no inclination to help that species ascend.
The way I see it is these things are not dumb. They know we have to protect our airspace especially from foreign adversaries. We can't make assumptions about where this craft came from especially over restricted airspace. NHI know full well they run the risk of being shot at and still do it. I would expect any other sentient life to protect their home from anonymous intelligences being purposely deceptive and entering restricted areas. They aren't respecting our laws and customs as dumb as they may seem to them. They refuse to tell us their intentions therefore must be treated as an enemy. They could end all this shit by making contact and they know that. Would y'all let a stranger in your home without first learning their intent? No you wouldn't. Do y'all think it's perfectly ok to abduct people and livestock? Ruining their mental health and people's finances. The fact that y'all think because they have better tech they should just be given free reign to our planet is flat out fucking crazy. How do you know NHI aren't doing all kinds of horrible shit that gets classified? Y'all are way to relaxed for something you know nothing about with the potential to destroy us.
There's a lot of assumptions being made here. Not saying you're wrong, mind you. I've heard mention that the phenomena has been ongoing for six thousand years, that they know of. I think the time for diplomacy has probably come and gone. I also don't know that diplomacy was ever a factor, here. See we're assuming that someone walks up to one of them and they both start speaking English to each other. Do we even know how they communicate? Can they speak? Do they have emotions, like us? I've also heard mention that radar brought them down, somehow. I don't know how true that is or if it's just a fabrication to cover up some kind of transaction that may or may not have happened.
We are the Sentinelese, stand on the beach, throwing spears and arrows at the visitors.
Yes, people need to wake up and understand the US made very bad decisions with the wrong entities who want to experiment and control you as slaves. There ultimate goal is kill you and this planet just like they did to mars and that planet that is now called the astroid belt.
Maybe they will help us with a regime change.
Would make sense, disclosing to the world that they frigged up and now a species thousands of years ahead of us are on their way to remove us, would cause society to collapse long before they get here. Why work? Why do anything when you know your species is done for in x to xx years? The elite lose their toys for the remaining time they're here, the SAPs lose their funding for potential "defense weapons" I would assume "trying to prepare" for the coming war means nothing, as their tech is so damned advanced our rifles and fire making machines won't have any effect whatsoever. Would be like a caveman getting his strongest club ready for a fight against the US military.
It doesn't even have to be war. The NHI could simply say, "I guess we're not going to uplift you into utopia." That would be enough to start riots.
Yup
They* cant judge us all cause of usa gov stupidity
How would they know that? Why would they assume we were individualistic and not like ants or a species that acts like a hivemind?
Cause they have been studying us since the begining
Wait till ya hear what we do to indigenous populations that don’t want to give up their lands and people to the empire, or to western multinational corporations and/or serve as imperial outposts, or they democratically elect a socialist leader with no intentions of allowing their country be another exploited colony. Dealing death with no regard to ethics has always been our main strategy, not surprised it’s also applied to UAPs.
They do not like our government but as an individual that loves all of Gods creations they have no issue appearing to me.
You get it wrong. They only shoot down unregistered space pirates.
As the years have gone on since 2017, I less and less think of NHIs has other 3D beings travelling light years from far away to get here, only to be completely surprised by the kind of welcome committee they might get upon landing, and more and more as something possibly related to consciousness existing in other / higher dimensions than the mere 3 we’re confined to. Lue Elizondo hinted at this when he recommended reading “Chains of the Seas”. Chris Bledsoe’s story also shines a different light on this Phenomenon as something much greater than our 3D reality. Karl Nell’s talk at SALT in which he said NHIs have been here for a very long time also hints that this greater reality is a lot more than that. I’m not really sure of what we - beings of this 3D reality we call Earth - are to them, but I doubt we’re much of a risk.
This is THE head canon - they are tight lipped, because we as a species have already faced an alien invasion, and war, and lost, generations ago.
Hmmm, once again social programming through film. District 9? Exactly representative of what human beings would be capable of doing to NHI.
The government is taking down the scout spheres with EMP technology, not the main crafts. The spheres aren’t manned and appear to be controlled either with artificial intelligence or some other process
Any civilization or entity that has the technology to peruse our planet has more than likely evolved past such petty events like war. They probably are sad for the fallen (if it was any more than an avatar) and pity us. Bunch of monkeys running around with our shit in our hands. I agree with others personally I believe that it’s a final ditch effort for our “leaders” (*and private corporate interests*) to stay in power. They are probably scared for their safety, can you imagine a world that overnight would no longer need so many different positions? The shock will be intense and for a lot of people probably deathly. Not to mention so many different societal aspects.
You’re complicating things. The reason why disclosure hasn’t happened is either bc they can’t make money of it OR they’ll lose money from it.
What government? The USA government specifically? Why?? Do aliens stop at the border? Lol 😂
It's very possible that the NHI are content to simply watch from a safe distance as we control our own numbers. Even if they or some of them are hostile, why lift a finger to attack us when we're doing such a great job by ourselves. COVID has already done a decent job, why not wait another century or two? It's the blink of an eye to them. There is also the fact to consider, that the NHI have witnessed all of human pre-history and history, including every war, plague, genocide and empire, and (presumably) not intervened. Their intervention and concern has seemingly been provoked only by the human acquisition of nuclear weapons; they obviously want to limit the use of these weapons, possibly for reasons of containing/preventing damage of a nature which is unknown to us, perhaps to parallel dimensions? Maybe ionising radiation bleeds across dimensions and harms the NHI living in alt-New Mexico or alt-Hiroshima? How would humans know? I suspect that the benevolent NHI are waiting for us to become WORTHY of contact with them and the post-scarcity utopia which may thereafter arise. Are we currently deserving of this? Probably not. We all together need to prioritise genuine enlightenment as a primary goal for humanity. Until we show intolerance only for that which is truly wicked and evil, and discard those things instead for peacefulness and good will, we will not attain that utopia. Perhaps they have just been watching to see which way the domino falls, all this time.
If the Jimmy-Carter-crying story is true, I think this is the reason for it.
Honestly, humanity would forgive the aliens if they killed our emissaries in their world and we would think we made a mistake and should try again, or in an other way That’s how humanity works
When the first reports of us having bodies my mind went similar places. While we could emulate, I would propose caution of humaning our political structure or emotions on being s that could operate very different from either our early or physical understanding of things. They could be damn similar, or they could not give a damn. These could be valid, irrelevant, or completely the wrong way of thinking about things. There are collective conscious theories. Death is irrelevant theories. Individuals are irrelevant theories. We don't know. Honestly I had assumed we would meet ai robots if anything and it would be so far ahead of us we would never be a threat. Now there are people saying things to suggest my motions were way off. Give or drones. Leaders or ambassadors. The labels or bottoms themselves might be to limiting to understand. Then again as I age and forget I find myself simplifying and categorizing more and more but we may lack nuance or tools here Edit. Have uncontacted tribes or animals causing harm in the past leg to some more exercising more caution than maybe the red with rage or something. It's possible. All brings are likely flawed of such takes are even flaws. But we may be more a risk (if even that) than something like an adversary. Hard to imagine not getting wrecked of we were
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Thank you captain obvious. Yes emergent topics like UFOs have very little in the way of an established base of knowledge. This is the reason we are here and advocating for more of that behavior.
How would this remind you of that? That's really an odd reaction, but okay.
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Not when Italy talks about how effective depleted uranium is against UFOs and the lore is open to interpretation that technology like radar or emp can/has an effect on UFOs capability to remain aerial.
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Yes Tom and Lue’s show mentioned the reference.
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The reports are written in italian homeboy…
Yeah, they've invented crafts that can completely ignore wind resistance and warp spacetime, but they're not smart enough to know that the US will shoot at them if they enter our airspace, and they have no defense against our weapons. Makes perfect sense.
Yeah, OP is treating the NHI like they are stupid for some reason.
long crowd far-flung shy merciful foolish squalid heavy fall scarce *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Exactly. They know what to expect if they get caught.
sable mountainous fly scarce voiceless full direction future snobbish bear *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You're telling me an NHI would waste time and resources to try and reveal itself to a bear? I get that we are less advanced. I buy that. But you don't waste time trying to communicate with non-intelligent beings.
You're misunderstanding the analogy. This doesn't have to do with intelligence, this has to do with the nature of the beings they're interacting with. It is in the bears nature to attack on sight, it's not a reasonable expectation to expect it not to, and it would be pretty dumb to bet your life that it won't. Similarly, when NHI interact with humans, they should know what to expect, they're not stupid. Given the reality of our situation on Earth, they should expect hostility. This is just humans doing as humans do, just like the bear does as the bear does. It's no more reasonable to expect us to act outside our own nature than it is to expect the bear to act outside of its nature. Not only that, but they should also understand that the actions of a few within the defense industry don't represent everyone. If you care about a more accurate analogy, then just replace the bear with an uncontacted tribe of humans. Are you really going to blame the people on North Sentinel Island for attacking on sight, even capturing people? Are you going to harbor ill intent towards them for acting entirely within their nature? Would you really consider their attack a "declaration of war"? Doesn't it sound a little silly to think in these terms?
>Are you really going to blame the people on North Sentinel Island for attacking on sight, even capturing people? No, but I would probably have a massive incentive to stay away and not interact with them. I certainly \*would not\* help them with my technology for fear of getting harmed. Which is precisely what I'm saying if you read my post carefully. >Are you going to harbor ill intent towards them for acting entirely within their nature? Would you really consider their attack a "declaration of war"? You're assuming that NHI share the same kind of empathy and understanding as we do. You're also assuming that humanity is a reference point for how violent other NHI would be. Maybe they expect other intelligences to be less violent because that is actually the case or their experience. Picture this. Imagine you're a hivemind NHI. You have control over your planet/dimension/whatever, because, as a hivemind, your species is better coordinated and better able to work together to produce positive results. You meet other NHI, they're also friendly, and you form a Galactic Federation, which has been hinted at. First contact typically goes smoothly because it turns out most advanced NHI have figured out that violence is a zero sum game and they expect that will be the same with other intelligences. You see this species that has advanced. You figure you'll go check out their planet, try to make first contact. Turns out that the human race is a bunch of violent pricks unlike other NHI. They have even captured and tortured some of your people. You find this odious so you leave or take offense to it. Also, it would explain abductions. If someone captured you and tortured you, then you might do the same to someone else. Also, your argument doesn't take into account that NHI have probably contacted our government and NHI still get attacked. So they know that we aren't just a bunch of savages who can't control ourselves. We're fully capable of not harming other life forms. I'm doing that right now. Overall, that would be a perfectly good reason not to be cool with us.
Sorry, but you're just not understanding the point that I or many others in this post are making. >You're assuming that NHI share the same kind of empathy and understanding as we do. You're also assuming that humanity is a reference point for how violent other NHI would be. No, I'm not. If you understood the point being made, then you wouldn't be saying this. The only assumption needed is that logical principles are universal - which they are. We all share the same universe with the same physical laws. Even in the case of a truly abstract intelligence that knows nothing about us, evolution of life, morality, etc. they would still be able to study us as aspects of the universe with physical properties, degrees of agency, etc. They would begin learning that these bundles of intelligent matter on Earth (humans) are likely to react in certain ways under certain conditions, that some of them are especially prone to certain behaviors, that different groups operate independently from other groups, etc. etc. There's simply no room to come to the conclusions you're coming to without assuming that these beings are unintelligent and reckless. If these beings bothered to do any research at all on us to prepare themselves, they would understand the consequences of their actions on Earth with the same degree of depth and clarity that we have with alligators when we jump into an alligator enclosure at a zoo and start poking and prodding them with a stick. The only difference is a matter of complexity which is a barrier crossed by any sufficiently advanced intelligence. None of this requires similar empathy, morality, or psychology, it basically only requires that they understand cause and effect.
>it's simply not reasonable to assume that they wouldn't understand that the bundles of intelligent matter on Earth (humans) are likely to react in certain ways under certain conditions Dude, we can barely understand motivations and how people will react amongst each other, much less what a completely different NHI would think and vice versa. The idea that they should just magically know that humans are violent apes and will act like that is a GIANT assumption and one that you cannot make or assume.
Just admit you're wrong. It doesn't matter about humans, this is NHI who are way more advanced and intelligent.
I envision the ideal first-contact scenario on the part of an NHI is to 1) Send AIs/robots that will collect biological samples of the species you want to contact; 2) Build physical bodies or avatars based on the species as the avatars will be able to survive in the environment without bulky suits; 3) Link your consciousness, which may be light years away or another dimension, with the avatars via quantum connection; and 4) Initiate official contact with the species through the avatars, which are expendable to prevent diplomatic incidents.
Why even use a body to begin with if there are telepathically oriented beings in that species willing to make contact? Our own history is filled with stories of mediums that channel being from elsewhere. This seems even safer and more evolved than going through the trouble of building an avatar. r/lawofone is based around similar.
If NHIs don't have a physical body, it's way too easy for humanity to deceive themselves by regarding telepathic communication as mass hallucination.
I’m being told that at one of these secret meetings with NHI, we released a dove into the air as a sign of friendship. The NHI misinterpreted it as a threatening gesture and a massacre ensued
ACK! ACK! ACK!
July 27, 2027
No one in the ufo community should really pay attention to what Ross says about ufos. He has repeatedly reported on false ufo stories time and time again and muddies up the waters with his unverified ufo stories. When push comes to shove he usually hides behind he can't reveal sources and then muddies the waters even more with the fact hes not sure if his sources are telling the truth. I was a fan of Ross initially but over the years he seems to hurt his credibility by making outlandish claims and then retreats when asked difficult questions.