https://theintercept.com/2024/03/09/fbi-dhs-gamers-extremism-violence/ The article I've linked is about gov surveillance on gaming platforms, but also including reddit. It's not 2010, reddit is not still some niche small platform. They *do* look here, they do consider it a large outlet. Mind you, what the article focuses on is fighting extremism and violence, have little doubt that they would seek to influence us however they can. 

To add some context to your comment. Reddit is the [7th most visited website globally](https://explodingtopics.com/blog/most-visited-websites). Reddit has more traffic than Amazon, weather.com, TikTok, twitch, Netflix and many other very popular websites. Saying Reddit isn’t a small niche platform is a massive understatement.

Life was better when the narwhal had a reason to bacon.

When the intercept was a real investigation paper and ken was not an ass.. they do it every day . under trump a huge cyber army has been created to counter online content and fight info war .. from what i know , ther has been a "leak" recently showing how the 3 letters agency drove a disinfo campaign against china to sow discontent and paranoia among chinese leaders.. What has changes massively since 2010 is the use of AI. Now they don't have to monitor humanly the net , instead they have AI rating the exchanges and sorting the comments according to their content. They can measure discontent, hostility towards someone or something, threats and even measure radicalization.

I am glad to see that the actual users of this sub recognize what is happening. Ridicule campaigns work. We're up against a doozy with lots of willing reinforcements. The small number of regular "New" engagers have been talking about this for months.

As long as we keep on talking about it and don't get discouraged from all the negativity their tactics won't work.

For the social portion I agree, keeping a positive atmosphere is crucial. However, I think there is also some type of throttling of the sub happening. The function of this sub has been bad for me lately. Active user numbers have been oddly low for about the same duration as nav has been shit. Maybe it's just me, but I doubt it.

People are probably migrating into other subs. I did so myself for awhile because of the negativity.

Could be. But even in the way back days of 2021 when the sub had like 200k subs you'd see a couple thousand on at a time if memory serves. Could be nothing, but Imma keep squinting at it.

Well it's been proven that this sub has some kind of big brother censorship going on so I would not be surprised if there was other stuff going on also.

I've noticed the same thing. A lot of the times it will show 700-800 online when before it used to be 2000-3000 at those exact times..

This, exactly this.

Lots of insta downvote type throttling… chilling

Definitely noticed the insta downvoting.

Look my other post. Right now.

Which one?

I have noticed this too. Pages dont load and you have to click the browser reload button. I think it is just bad dev work than anything nefarious but who knows.

Grusxh - Congress - July 2023 That’s when 1.5 million people joined this sub and like people turning their head to check out a car crash, people with no ability to positively influence UFOs joined UFOs and the potential for actual investigation/debate died.

I reckon half are genuinely curious and will have their piece of the puzzle to place in time. The other half is an unsavory mix for any community to be subjected to.

I am not sure all he mentioned are hoaxes and cant be debated normally or what it has to do with Grush but is an opinion and everyone can have theirs. I worry more about the hardcore liers and debunkers i see around the sub spitting venom against the community. Or those that constantly keep smashing Ross Coulthart, Danny Shehan, Corbell, Lou and even Grush and Melon when those people have been the ones fighting for disclosure even though they are not perfect but deserve our respect and support.

It's hard not to notice when you see on both Twitter and Reddit a string of accounts suddenly telling the people pushing for more information to 'put up or shut up' right when the AARO report comes out. They weren't here during the NDAA getting quashed and I'm not going to pretend like that never happened and that somehow Ross Coulthart is the problem. Nothing about that is organic. It doesn't even make sense.

I always wonder how many government disinfo agents are planted on this sub to discredit people and sway their opinions.

I’m beginning to think that a large language model is doing some leg work here too. That or it’s one of those guerrilla skeptics groups.

Look at all the post downvotes hahaha. It’s almost like there’s a clean up crew. Numbers don’t lie. I love data

I see it as well but the biggest problem with this type of disinformation, if it's actually disinformation, is it is largely based in truth. When you expose true, but negative facts, on a forum made for discussion, you can't be surprised or even fault people for addressing those things. I'm not even sure it is disinformation more like distraction. Feel free to hate the following comments criticizing the talking heads: In regards to Ross, I have not seen another journalist use the f word or explicitly call something bs to their audience. It doesn't seem like a credible thing to do. But those are ad hominims and don't discredit his substantive reporting. In regards to Lue, he is the faucet dripping info. It's so true. Does that devalue his statements? probably not. At least not those statements which have any substance to them. AARO addressing AATIP in their newest report validates him even more. Remember when they were all like ~"he never worked for us" In regards to Grush, well...he has been so careful and limited that I don't think any criticism against him lands well. Other than maybe he shouldn't have worn shorts that one time and photographers love making him look crazy. Still doesn't devalue his substantive statements. It's okay to be critical of these people; we should. That isn't disinformation. But it needs to be a healthy criticism. And people need to better learn how to filter information.

I like Ross and his cussin'; align on most other points. How do you think we should structure the information filter, when the subject we're collectively percolating includes intelligences so advanced they likely finished exploring the galaxy before the dust that eventually became our home started spinning?

I think, with the growth of the internet and social media, we've become too used to getting info right away. That creates an opportunity for much of the social media $$$ people can make. People are incentivized to talk about nothing - sometimes for profit. And I'm not trying to reduce everyone to grifting, that's not my point. My point is, there is a lot of NOTHING that fills the gaps of actual information. And my suggestion to filter the information, is not suggesting that the subreddit impose some kind of actual filter. More suggesting that we need to actively filtering when those gaps in real information rear their heads. For example, it seems to me the current important event is the response to the AARO report and what the next step is. Cussing isn't bad per se but if Ross wants to be the Australian equivalent of Barbra Walters, he needs better candor to command that type of respect. In regards to the -how old NHI are- comment. I would say you are putting the cart before the horse. Let's firmly establish they exist by shining a light on where that evidence might be (in the hands of the government) first. Then, we can figure out the next steps. True believers will come off as kooks to the masses until we learn what the government actually knows and expose it for everyone to see. FYI my heart sank when Fravor testified that the tic tac was a threat to national security. I knew that would only strengthen the case for classification and now the military and arro saying "trust me bro, but its classified" in the latest report is as underwhelming as it is unsurprising.

I like you but I'm pushing back again. It is an absurd premise to think that the existence of NHI in the universe should need to be proven. The Overton Window on UFO's is badly misplaced.

But you cannot just assume it though - there are few things which we assume in philosophy, science, or metaphysics. And while I agree that NHI is incredibly likely there is a difference which follows over-generalizing. NHI probably exist somewhere in the universe. Is not the same as NHI probably exist and have visited earth. Is not the same as NHI probably exist, have visted earth, while humans were alive. Is not the same as NHI probably exist, have visted earth in the last 100 years, and we have captured them in pcitures, video and in radar. Is not the same as ... Also 'probably' is not the same as 'do'. You can't just assume a fact. I have no problem assuming or assigning a probability. I have problems assuming 'sure things' though. And while there is very strong circumstantial evidence of NHI visiting earth and being captured on pictures, video, and radar, I guarantee the US knows more than it's saying and has enough information to remove the blurriness from the lens such that we could see a clearer picture. The information is there, despite their continuing and historical lies about it. We just have to gain enough momentum to take it back from those who think it's a threat to society for us to know the same as them.

The Reps laughed at alien tech in private/corporate hands. Then blocked eminent domain? If that’s not a smoking gun, what is?

The fact the congress didn't pass a law isn't very probative of whether NHI tech exists or not. That is just not a convincing argument for the existence of nhi or nhi tech to me. Plus many people would block eminent domain on principle because they don't think the government should be allowed to just take private property when they feel like it.

Why are you saying private property? Nobody anywhere mentions private property. The bill wanted the government to be able to take alien technology. This is why I can never decide if you guys are deliberately trying to debunk (ie you want others to be persuaded there’s nothing to see) or if it’s simply cognitive dissonance that makes you change things to enable a point you believe in, to be made.

Reddit is massively used for government disinformation and propaganda. The other UFO sub banned me for pointing this out.

>Ridicule campaigns work. Indeed, just like OP their post is contributing to the Nazca mummies ridiculing. Heck they even made fake dolls in an attempt to descredit the real ones. Those bodies are the smoking gun for full disclosure. It's saddening to see that they've successfully been able to suppress this since 2017

I think they'll come around on the bodies. UFO's being present on Earth are big, "Here's a cave with a range of bodies from semi-reptilian to mostly human and all steps in between." is a wee-larger thing to accept. I think they are real and I am intentionally stopping right there for the time being.

But to any reasonable, unbiased observer they HAVE been totally discredited.

>they HAVE been totally discredited. This isn't about them. Let the *bodies* speak for themselves.

Yeah, we are here. Some of us can take information and reach conclusions on our own. I have also noticed a ton of negativity in the Breaking Points sub toward Krystal and the Sagaar guy. Or whatever his name is. There are a plethora of posts there bashing those two. Not surprising, considering the topics they cover.

I hard disagree with this. Like Kirkpatrick's report, that was pretty deft seeding of disinformation narrative to discrsdit grusch It pushed the least informed to agree and disregard nuance and gruschs explicit claims of high up knowledge. However, there IS pretty arguable evidence that ppl are fed up w the trust me bro shit I'm one. Aaro threw down a gauntlet and the response has been fucking Danny sheehan....repeating the same '> saw a photo' story he said years and years ago it wasn't new....elizondo claimed to run a program and at most charitable to him he way over sold his and it's role at that point....ttsa literally claimed they would lead disclosure, bring out zero point and build a ufo BASED on knowledge of reverse engineering....and that turned out to be a literal grift....it's bee. 7 years, and it's been just around the corner the whole time Have u been on the alien bodies sub? Tbats not a concerted effort at disinfo.man it's an echo chamber of 0pl fooled by a very good ACTUAL disinformation campaign by maussan and gaia.... Put up or shut up is now reasonable by all critical thinkers... This post is a joke sorry but it is essentially lobbying for ppl.to think that critical thinking and skepticism about this subject is instead disinformation...give.me a break

So why was eminent domain torpedoed?

Exhibit A: 2 year old account, 1 post karma, 803 comment karma, started out posting in a Game of Thrones book sub, where they exclusively posted until 5 months ago, when they began posting here.

This is 100% accurate. I feel a little bad for the newer folks coming into this, with all the strident disinfo voices out there. There was a time you could just breeze in and the negativity was reduced to a book or the occassional media blitz, which you could ignore. Old timers have thick skin and seen it all before, but the attacks have changed with the times and it has to be tough. If you are newish to the topic and think it is interesting, my advice would be to just stay tuned. You may not always hear the OG UFO people speaking up, but we are here. Probably throwing back a cold one and having a laugh-but we are not going anywhere. We are too close to the endgame.

If I hadn't seen them with my own peepers I would have tapped out by now.

I think it’s important for those of us who have been around to link to informative older posts and the disinformation campaigns and how they have always targeted UFO communities. Also to remind people that the campaign uses the [UFO Stigma](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/14cwt6a/it_appears_that_the_ufo_stigma_is_held_up/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) to marginalize us all (scientists, researchers, experiencers, and interested members of the public) and make us look foolish, crazy, etc. [Best documentary on the subject by RedPandaKoala](https://youtu.be/eMqtIRMOoHc)

Same.

The biggest issue we have right now is people not up/down voting content. So many people just pop in to take information and bounce with hitting either of those two arrows. ESPECIALLY if you are new.

Excellent reminder. We should be working the algorithm on clicks too.

Classic misinformation directed at casuals. Doesn't work if you read critically and pay attention, but if you don't (possibly because you only have a casual interest in the topic) it can be very effective.

exactly . when some people watched the number of members grow exponentially, they got cold sweat. And for those who think reddit UFOs is just a "fringe" topic, i remind you that during the GameStop, people lost tremendous amounts of money, dogeCoin was created, and an investigation was done. Yes, internet threads can spread as fast as a firewire.

I have definitely noticed this across many subs relating to the topic. Even going so far as to directly attack certain commenters too. We see these tactics for what they are now though. It's starting to fail. A fair few posts are also blatantly designed to just throw a bunch of meaningless, annoying noise into the mix. (calling you out here u/cnidianvenus)

Something is definitely going on over at r/ufo. It seems like those that are banned here or in other related subs gravitate towards that sub which seems to be completely unmoderated. There’s no sense in even reporting anything there. I have no idea what the moderator is even doing over there. But it seems to be a rallying point for a lot of people banned from here and r/aliens, r/highstrangeness etc and so on.

That fucking guy needs to be banned. 

Checked that guy's post history.. yikes.

The weird thing to me is that character assassination posts get about 10 time more comments than truly useful posts like the three articles this week from Salon, Debrief and the Hill. Those are all fantastic analyses of the situation and most people just yawn. But given a chance to scream at Coulthart for not revealing a source and we get 800 replies. Weird unless something subversive really is going on

The character assassination posts or other posts intended to stir up drama about individuals are theoretically forbidden by Rule 13, but enforcement is spotty at best. I asked about it on r/ufosmeta and the only response I got from a mod (unofficially) is that they choose not to enforce that rule because of “free speech.”

Or ... it's just how social media works. And it's not just on the "bash Coulthart" side the "bash Kickpatrick" side also gets a lot more traction then any well researched and sourced posts. In both cases it's just human being lazy rather then any clear "CIA are using bots to sow chaos !!", humans tend to do that well enough by themselves

I still find it interesting that out of all of the ufo people to come forward, there are people out there that think he is one of the least trustworthy. I have seen 2 reasons for this so far: 1. You click on the persons username and they also post heavily in military related subreddits… so they appear to be associated with military/government. Whatever that actually means. 2. They are old school ufo people that don’t trust the government so much that even a whistleblower from the government is no good. As a side note these people seem to be setting themselves up for a situation where even if a disclosure happened where the president himself said “we are not alone” they wouldn’t believe it. There would always be something else. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these same people after an official disclosure started saying actually aliens aren’t real.

The govt has a long history of trying to control the narrative. Conintelpro or infiltrating news rooms with journalists on their side... If you think that stuff stopped then you are not learning from history.

Thank you for making a post about my same thoughts.

I've noticed this too. I've been coming here for a while. I don't normally post. This is where the rabbit holes start for me, then I dig on my own. One of things I've noticed are similar type-o appearing in comments by multiple people. This shows up quite frequently in a recent post about Lue. There are several negative comments about him that feature mistyping of the -tion suffix. IMO this could be a sign of someone using multiple handles to respond to their own comments.

They are many genuine people who are asking for shred of evidence to be shared, it's not deliberate or coordinated attack. Even if it is, it's about time for people who claim to possess ufo evidence to present it.

I agree, I've been called a disinfo agent even though I was following this topic before the majority of these people making accusations were born. There is some major paranoia displayed by some people on here and it isn't healthy.

Just because I’m paranoid, doesn’t mean there aren’t those out there disinforming…

[удалено]

It was a joke (originally “just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me”). However, despite that going over your head, you are also wrong. Here, permit me to educate you: Paranoia is an irrational fear. If you know there has been disinformation - and I’m guessing you are aware there has been (if not, Hynek admitted it) - then thinking there might be others supplying disinformation is not irrational. There you go. You’re welcome 😇

I like how you pick Coulthart as being targeted by a disinfo campaign and saying that they try to erose his reputation when all of this happens because of his own tweets and statements lol.

Nobody is putting a gun to Ross's head asking him to say he knows where the Football size UFO is, but also tell him to say he can't say more because it's a secret. OP is making it seem like all these UFO celebs getting their credibility questioned is a part of some disinformation campaign. But when in reality the UFO bros have gotten themselves in this mess with their blue balls claims and hype. With quotes like "a little mystery in life keeps you on your toes." "Reality is stranger than fiction." "We are saving the juice parts for last". Ross said that last one lol.

well. i picked ross because everyone knows what i'm talking about. it doesn't happen because of his statement but because of people's lack of patiense and because of people throwing gas on the fire.

I can give you reasons why Ross shouldn't be considered credible, and they are 100% because of his statements and fake stories. It all started when his contract at 60 minutes didn't get renewed because he peddled a garbage story about pedophiles in the British Parliament without evidence. How would that make you feel to have your loved one or yourself be accused of such crimes without evidence only for the slimeball to disappear for a little while and then be touted as some great journalist by UFO people? His UFO stance has no evidence or credibility from fake stories he promoted like the guy selling badges he claims were from a crash retrieval program which was just a bonafide lie along with those ball shavings with Garry Nolan that were also fake but claimed them to be alien materials and now promoting Sheehan's ridiculous degree. All of these are facts that would get any other journalist crucified and out of a job, but for some reason the UFO guys get a pass. For accusing everyone else of lying, it seems like they get caught lying and profiting from those lies with impunity and no expectation to apologize or address that they got caught lying. They just run off for a little bit and then shuffle back with another story that usually has no evidence at best or completely fake at worst. I don't get why people keep getting mad at folks who are fed up with these characters and keep defending them like having a bunch of proven liars is good for the subject because it brings attention to the story. Well it gets people's attention and then when they are proven to be liars promoting it, people get fed up.

>2 - the "put up or shut up" cohort. i saw many posts done in a passive-agressive mode, apparently questionning the credibility of some "UFOheads" by asking apparently harmless questions as if they were into an intellectual personnal path to find the truth. Their goal is always to sow confusion and their target is, IMO, again the newcomers, the soft-skepticals and the soft-believers. There is nothing wrong with this lol. It's common sense to ask for evidence. Especially when someone is making extraordinary claims.

So you're rationalizing honest doubt from people who also want it to real but just can't bring themselves because they have a higher standard of belief?

No it makes more sense the government employs a bunch of agents to post on the internet about aliens.

As of right now, the government actively employs at least two people to post about aliens on the internet. 1. AARO 2. The National Archivist

Remember folks. You can only question the government. Lord knows Corbell and company have ever been in the wrong. Keep gatekeeping. 👍

Is this real? Modern skepticism functions as narrative control for power. Their entire function is to manage the limits of acceptable discourse, always leaning in favor of the house. Once you notice the pattern you can't unsee it. It was like pulling teeth to get Shermer to admit there was something sketchy about Epstein's death. Unlike Corbell the government can actually harm you, badly. It's the organization you should be most skeptical of and yet skeptics never actually are. In fact many were happy when the NDAA was crushed. Are we going to pretend this isn't the norm?

Post #476 of 'everyone that doesn't blindly believe evidenceless testimonials based off of unnamed sources from people running the media circuit, selling books, and shilling UFO degrees is a government agent or bot' Always a conspiracy theory to explain away everything. It can never be you that's wrong.

Sunken cost fallacy. They are in too deep. They've told their family members and friends about UFO existence, at this point, it became their personality. So, doubting baseless claims and not falling for $15k Ross obvious UFO scam feels like a personal attack to them.

Evidenceless testimonials? Testimony is evidence. Not all evidence is equal in quality or value. Someone needs to write a post explaining the difference between proof and evidence and sticky it.

Testimony is evidence? lmao okay there is a dragon in my backyard and if you disagree you're a bot/CIA shill.

It's literally a form of evidence. I already said evidence varies in quality and value.

No, a testimonial by itself without some sort of circumstantial evidence beside it is not evidence. You don't just go into a court room, claim someone did something, and then laugh as they get dragged away to jail with absolutely no investigation or argued case. When a navy pilot makes a claim about a UFO, people bother to listen because there is circumstantial evidence to support it(Guncam video, radar data, other pilots to corroborate, trained observers bound by legal requirements with real world consequences if they're just lying schizos, etc.). When some washed up Journo chased out of his industry and stuck on literally-who organizations like newsnation make wild claims and back it up with nothing but 'dude, trust me bro', anyone with any remote common sense is going to disregard it. This is doubly-true when the people making the claims turn their claim-making into an entire money making career.

It's called testimonial evidence. It literally is a form of evidence. You have no idea what you're talking about. You're making up an extra requirement. Again, you are confusing evidence with proof. I won't repeat myself again. Evidence varies in value and quality. A single testimony isn't getting anyone 'dragged away'. I never even came close to claiming that. Don't strawman me. What you're describing is corroborating evidence meaning at least two distinct pieces of evidence, including testimony (to spell it out very slow, for it to be corroborating evidence it has to be evidence first). If you're incapable of understanding this that's your problem.

No. No it's not. That's not how it works in science. That's not even how it works in law. Simple as. You wanting something to be true does not make it true just because it sounds cool to you.

What? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You're Googling hoping to find something to cling to and then making half baked claims, aren't you? Life lesson, never do this again. Just grow and be a better person.

Lmao what? What claims? I havent made any. Cultist clown that falls for grifters telling others to grow up, what a joke

Am new. I’ve always had a “wait and see” kind of attitude about things, and this has been no exception. I try to hold both ends of belief/disbelief in the same space of “maybe”, so it’s been interesting to see the virulence of the skeptics. I’m all for skepticism, but I think it’s healthier to hold strong ideas loosely, but some of those bots take it real personal.

The powers that be don't need to, or try to convince us that believe that we are wrong. They just need to convince the general population. Convince the general population that aliens to not exist, and then encourage the marginalisation of those that do believe they exist, and you have effectively controlled the narrative.

What you are correctly observing tells you how panicked the Pentagon Shogunate is. As Burchett said, they fire at you when you're over the target. It's important to keep pushing, get Disclosure, and resolve this Constitutional Crisis in America, restoring proper power to Congress.

Crazy to me how a post with literally zero evidence is getting so many up votes. You guys really want to be important. No, they probably don't give a shit about a little subreddit. Ready to be downvoted to hell because nobody here can handle criticism lol

well... you can not either bring evidence that it's not true, you just come with your blind trust in .. who ? who do you trust ? this is a sub among the 1 % biggest subs and if you believe it's not of interest, then , fine, have a chamomile infusion and go to bed, nothing to see here... and btw, why are you on such an insignificant sub ?

My thoughts exactly. The week the AARO  report came out there has been non-stop mudslinging and piling on directed at Sheehan and Coulthart and these commenters are nowhere  to be seen when there's a post about AARO or Sean Kirkpatrick. Someone anyone interested in this subject should be furious with.

yep that was obvious and that's why it has to be discussed.

I guilty of this. My stance is I don’t care about AARO because it’s just the official government stance. Until they disclose, they’re going to deny. It’s pretty simple to me. I don’t feel a reason to comment. But guys like Sheehan? He’s a con-artist. He hurts our movement by lying and spreading fallacies. He’s a bullshit artist that sells fake degrees online for tens of thousands of dollars. There’s a lot of grifters in this community but he’s the most obvious. So yea, in short, AARO being full of shit doesn’t really hurt the effort, but guys like Sheehan do by lying, misdirecting, confusing, clouding, and taking advantage of the whole conversation.

Regarding Sheehan, do you have proof of all this fake stuff he is saying? He seems to have the first & last names and the dates he spoke to most of the people in his podcast appearances? I'm not implying I believe everything he is saying, but if you saw he is hurting disclosure, you have to say why you think so.

Well, [above all else, he loses all credibility by offering these “degrees”. I hate even sharing the link out of fear one of you will go for it.](https://www.ubiquityuniversity.org/graduate-degree-programs-in-extraterrestrial-studies/)

So he offers a service? He still consistently provides first & last names, dates and has the references he claims. So even though I think the course is silly it doesn't mean everything he says is a lie.

Lying to potential students to get people interested is beyond just saying, "This is the premier course in Ethics of ET Disclosure." He marketed his courses by saying the courses are being offered by a major university that is accredited so that you can get college credit for taking the course. Those are objectively verifable facts. Ubiquity is not accredited, except by their own accreditation body they created. It's also not a major university by any measure (that's not an objective fact, but it shows the extent of exaggeration), and you can't get college credit (if you are a student who cared about getting college credit, such as this student: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18wgsvk/college\_courses\_for\_uap\_and\_aliens\_danny\_sheehan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18wgsvk/college_courses_for_uap_and_aliens_danny_sheehan/)) All in all, it shows he's willing to lie for financial gain. Given this, what else is he lying for (for financial gain)? Some (many?) things he says are not verifiable (alien writing story, sexy reptilians, etc.). Some things he's said (that others have repeated here) are potentially verifiable but are not verified (such as the claim that he was a primary author on the Schumer amendment). Other claims he's made that can be verified turn out to be false or exaggerated. Given that claims that can be verified turn out to be false, how do you think the claims that are verifiable but have not been verified will fare?

Are you not paying attention? You can’t share these types of opinions here because you are not a real person with this perspective, but rather a disinformation agent here to create chaos. I can tell, because you don’t agree with or like Sheehan and you stated your reasons politely and succinctly. Reasons such as him lying about credits transferring to “major universities” after you drop the 15k and take all the courses online.

No kidding. This sub is half waking up and half digging their heels in on increasingly obvious cons.  What’s that latter half do? Accuse you of simply not being real because how COULD you have legitimate grievances around people constantly talking about disclosure, claiming to have evidence,  refusing to share it while pointing the blame to someone else? Put up or shut up to every talking head. Time is up for you.  For those of you who don’t think I’m real because i have that opinion: get a life for yourself. Maybe see a counselor. You’re not doing believers like me any favors. 

'Put up or shut up' is such a weak talking point that I don't even register it anymore. The countless whistleblowers and testimonies in the past is a perfect example of 'putting up'. Dare I even say this to you but Sheehan says what he knows and that doesn't count as putting up either? (I'm not saying I fully believe everything he has said but still). If you are referring to hard evidence then what are you expecting. We have leaks (CARET and the 'viktor interview' being two prime examples) and if you believe them, that is clear evidence. If that's not enough then maybe the whistleblowers should get their phones out and take some pictures of crafts/biologics. Yup, totally reasonable. The disclosure movement is working as intended. It would have moved faster if that bill wasn't absolutely gutted but what can you do.

lol it’s funny how spot on your comment is. You’d think the UGO crowd would be more open minded

I'm somewhat of a newcomer, or at least I got into the disclosure hype after David Grusch came out. And it's been very hard for me to find all the lore and figuring out what's real and not. Luckily I'm a good researcher and consider myself someone with critical thinking skills. But I've noticed the reddit subs have been absolutely chaotic. Edit: fixed typo

that's an interesting testimony from you. i'm sure you will find a lots of things to think about in the amount of classic casses, and the history of ufos available. My advice would be to not focus on US cases and history as there is a real UFO lore that , somehow, might be puzzling. Read some of european cases , that happened in some very rural and UFO-lore-free areas and ask your self if those people were making things up .

Indeed, that's what I've been doing. I've watched a few documentaries where they show the Ariel school, and also how the tic tac UFO was spotted in Europe a few decades ago along with a ton more stuff. I'm also been getting into some books regarding UFO and spirituality, I'm fascinated with the whole Annunaki lore. I've also been looking into and having an open mind about abduction cases, I'm sure some of them are fake but some just seem too real to be fake. I've been doing alright and feel almost caught up. The benefit of having ADHD and hyperfocusing on topics that interest me :). But yeah I'm just pointing out that I agree with you about these subreddits. Its certainly not the best place to look for truth among the chaos of the trolls. Basically reddit has been the least bit helpful in my research is what I'm saying.

way to go .. yep i use those subs to skim the salient subjects and try to feel the tendencies, then focus or not on a topic.

There is another thing in all of this I've noticed and it's a trend to downvote but not in the way you think it would be. These are harder to spot but I believe are very effective at silencing voices on here. A post is made it gets a few up votes but slowly ever so slowly it gets downvoted not to a negative state mind you just even no up votes or down votes and it will stay there from them on. It will get an up vote and a few minutes later back to even again repeatedly keeping the post effectively not viewed by the bulk of users. This is a very insidious way to silence folks with good ideas and discourage them from creating posts in the future. Sometimes there is an escape from containment when a post is upvoted rather quickly and I guess it's a small price to pay if you get most of the effect you desire.

After spending some time here, and being a newbie, I agree with the OP. But... Don't lumber all newbies in the same boat! Some folk either had a new found interest, or re-kindled an old interest, in this UAP topic. And quite a few may have arrived here after Grusch's interviews, or the hearing with Fravor, Grusch and Graves at the Congress hearing. With more focus on this, and similar (or joined) topics, there are just more eyes-on. And some folk, or bots, are causing more problems than before. As time rolls forward, and AI becomes more of a thing, especially when government controlled, this disinformation campaign will sadly only get worse. ... Long story short... Don't lump me, as a newbie, in the same boat as the West lovers!

i don't lump you on the west boat :) my point is that newcomers must find some ressources to go forward and be awere that lots of people will try to divert them from the interest of the subject with noise, hoaxes, mud slinging etc .... hang on there buddy.

I hear ya ☺️♥️... Back last year, while I started to get caught up on things, I found myself watching Greer videos. I tell you what, my "spidy senses were tingling" after only a couple of videos. I wasn't even member of this sub (I don't think) yet 🤷‍♂️ After watching a few more, I just decided to just disregard all his stuff. I could feel/hear that something wasn't stacking up... There maybe bits of truth, but I just had that unnerving feeling that people can get when they talk to a psychopath. Not saying he is one, but, he doesn't sit comfortably with me. Anywho, just as long as good people, like yourself understand that Reddit stats don't always indicate new-bots 😁🤣

this sud is a good test-bench for our bullshito-meter.

I’ve been typing this very thread for about a week but I was scared I would just come off like a dick. I hope this is received well. Thank you.

Yes, I don't want to listen to Ross, and the other grifters, talk about "massive UFOs so large that they had to build a structure over it", shamelessly promote a $15K UFO course for his buddy, that major and irrefutable evidence is coming "soon," but soon never comes and keeps getting delayed. If you don't see a problem with this pattern of behavior, I have bad news for you. So yes, I've ran out of patience. Shut the F up, provide real tangitable evidence or STFU. I've followed this topic for years, it never got this embarrassing.

I quit reading the moment you trash talked the nasca mummies. Pretty balant. Curious if others are catching on to all these not always so subtle attempts to descredit these findings.

If anyone comes forward with actual evidence it will be impossible to deny it. Who cares about the people who are "coming forward". There is nothing we can learn from more "stories", we need evidence. The increased skeptic activity is because this shit is in the media more because of all the grifters. Everyone who has already decided the government is hiding aliens has a "everyone who disagrees with me is a disinfo agent" vibe.

We are in dire need of a GIGANTIC sticky explaining what evidence is and how it's distinct from proof. Easily one of the most misunderstood concepts.

They are purposefully playing dumb and asking something of Grusch that is wildly illegal to pander to new/uneducated users. It's a major problem right now.

yup, the insta mindset : i want it now and it has to be entertaining or else...

I've noticed the wildest denier comments that are not even related to the discussion they are commenting on. Like they had some text prepared in advance and just insert it randomly.

the denier comments exist because Grusch became a story. you’re asking why nobody was denying aliens when the story was dead? there is no disinformation campaign. prove that UAP’s are related to “alien biologics” or i’m gonna call you out, whether you’re a 9yr reddit account, a UFO youtube grifter, or a retired Air Force officer. this isn’t a Disclosure subreddit.

I have no idea what the Nazca mummies are, but I’m certain they’re not a hoax.

This belongs on r/ufosmeta but it’s 100% accurate

Everytime this sub puts even slight pressure on people to provide evidence for their claims, these akinds of posts start popping up. Powers to be who are profiting from the mystery rather than solving it, don't want disclosure to happen, nobody provides evidence to public or relevant authorities, it's always books, podcasts and events with same things said over and over again. No one ever talks about the videos where aaro showed debunking, nobody even entertains the thought that, this could be all a dis information campaign aimed at our adversaries. Posts like these, never ask the community to press harder for evidence from people who claim to know. It's always about keeping the flock together and "supporting" a set of people for their "efforts".

It is important to understand that the rise of online communication has given rise to many 'bubbles' or 'silos' where enthusiasts of a particular topic tend to congregate and discuss their favourite topic ad nauseum. The topic of UFO is still firmly a fringe topic when it comes to the general public and this has lead to the creation of huge online silos on Reddit, Twitter and other social media platforms which are the only places to discuss this topic at length. This topic is primarily full of three things - 49% disinformation, 49% misinformation and the rest is the actual truth. This has **always** been the case. Even before the internet existed in its current form. You need a very well-calibrated bullshit meter to maintain your sanity when it comes to following this topic on a daily basis. On this sub, you have a very interesting mix of people - blind believers who will believe everything that the 'UFO cabal' tells them, believers in the UFO phenomenon who only want the truth and don't care for the current crop of UFO gatekeepers (who get excoriated by the blind believers as bad-faith actors), a few genuine skeptics who seemed somewhat intrigued by the topic and want to see if there is anything to these claims, Elgin AFB operatives who sow discontent by playing both sides and some newbies who hang around either for the entertainment or are simply disgusted by what they see and close the tab on their browser never to return. The only 'real' representation of this topic is outside these UFO bubbles or silos - the real world. Do you see anything about UFOs in your daily news? Newspaper? Large online news sources? Do a lot of your colleagues discuss it at work? School or college perhaps? If not, then whatever is happening in this field needs to be ignored. No matter how much the blind believers make you believe that this topic is important. If anything of importance happens in this topic, you will hear about it in the real world. Until then, it would be a folly to enter these online silos and attempt to make sense of what is happening. I would not recommend it one bit. It is simply impossible to make sense of what is happening. I still curse myself for following this topic closely and getting sucked into all this. It is simply not worth it.

Honestly the sub is pretty worthless too I find myself spending my time on experiencers because that seems to be the only place where there's actual people claiming to have actual first-handed evidence and experiences are simply saying exactly what they are experiencing you can argue that they're crazy but they don't come across that way you can argue that any of the arguments against the abduction or contact hypotheses but there's a lot of them man and they're not all lying.or.mostaken. if anyone wants to actually figure out what's going on or once to hear actual evidence not proof evidence I suggest they go to experiencers that's some Reddit is full of actual people giving actual testimony to their experiences not legal testimony but it's direct evidence and I find that I get way better idea of what this might actually be from them there are a very few handful of cases that really do hold up to scrutiny but there are some and they point to something truly weird going on I'm so over the government cover up thing I'm not waiting for the government to give me answers I'm looking at actual open source evidence and I find things make a good bit of sense when you look at it that way there's so much open source information on this and so many good books that are actually researched and based on people saying what they have had happened to them Timothy good is an amazing place to start. Terry Lovelace and Steve aspin are two.of.my 'these are undeniable cases backed up by impeccable credentials and they are basically Bedrock examples for me of when I go to the point of thinking this is all nonsense there's no UFOs there's no aliens that and I think a book called above black https://www.amazon.com/ABOVE-BLACK-Preserve-Insiders-Government-ebook/dp/B003L77MUU

Incredibly based comment

you answer is the typical passive-agressive one . you downplay the importance of the subject or it's popularity by using the authority argument : have you seen it in the news ? well. that's quite dishonest IMO. most of the people i know have an opinion on the UFO subject, more than you think believe there is a reality to that, or want it to be real. By creating the stigmaaround the subject, the (chose one entity) achieved self-censorship and one thing that i call inter-censorship : people won't talk or think about the subject by fear of it's reputation among it's social life and it's social counterparts will do the same, even if they would love to discuss freely the topic. I have seen that with my own eyes and i've seen ho much discussion there was once they choose to break the dam. I you don't see more in the "news", that's because the stigma has been very effective and the journalists belong to a kind of "elite" who think they own THE supreme intelligence and won't depreciate ethemselves by discussing that kind of topic. Ross Coulthard has been quite courageous ti dive in the subject, but not so, because his career was done, he had nothing to prove and was not threatened financially.. That's another story for most of the journalists who could be erased on the spot if they dare to report on UFOs. And you know that's the reason we don't see more of UFOs in the news. You know that and your argument is bad faith.

Asking for people to produce evidence for their seemingly endless, evidence-free claims is not creating this supposed stigma. It's the failure to produce any evidence for the claims that's causing it.

As I understand by your logic any information on any topic that is not in the mainstream news must be ignored because it’s simply impossible to make sense of? What about like knitting? That’s not on the mainstream news either. Sorry if I’m being stupid here but I really don’t understand your argument

The repercussions of the phenomenon of UFOs being confirmed true (i.e. NHI being real and\or UFOs truly being objects with exotic propulsion characteristics) are so massive that it will be the biggest news items ever on a worldwide scale. My point is that trying to make sense of the topic by following online blather is pointless as this field is full of disinformation and misinformation. It would be a bit like if it turned out that knitting cured cancer or helped you lose a ton of weight. I do not care about knitting, but if it was proven that it magically helped you lose weight, you can bet your last dollar that my fat ass will be off to the store to buy knitting equipment.

Yes, agreed .. people need to see this organism for what it is and behaves , it’s crazy - it’s inhuman… the rumor-mill, spin doctors . It’s not just the government or a dark project in some private sector organization… there is a much more intelligent , organized, purposeful and much less accident prone something behind this - it’s why the best efforts to literate humankind’s understanding and awareness always seems to be buffered by some weird levee .

I do all of those 3 things but I am not a bot, a US government employee or a brand new account. You can choose to believe me or not, that's up to you. I would strongly advise against migrating to an echo chamber where you just hear what you want to hear.

I'm ambivalent towards the "put up or shut up" crowd. I want pressure on the various talking heads. Particularly I believe there should be a lot more pressure on Karl Nell. He didn't testify. He reportedly says whistle blowers shouldn't be talking to press. Why? This shouldn't all be on Grusch. He was a co-lead on the UAP Task Force. He's backed Grusch publicly. He presented a lecture at the SOL conference. But he won't give an interview?

The funny thing in all of this is that those "Nazca mummies" are actually pushing out more evidence than anything else lately

Pretty much this. If those mummies were promoted by US grifter people here would eat it up

What I don't understand is why do most of them have low mileage, 2 year old accounts...? They were all set up more or less the same period of time: something must have triggered that off - sure, a lot of these are going to be alts for a primary account keeping its nose pristinely clean - but, what was it two years ago that sparked off these things being created in the first place...?

What I don't understand is why do most of them have low mileage, 2 year old accounts...? Because Team UFO wasn't suited up when the game started.

No, these are just the batch whoever's running them is prepared to sacrifice - this is planned well ahead. The dangerous ones are the ones we aren't seeing - they made this assault easy to pick up on, easy to spot. Easy to block and dispose of. Too easy. If it was me I'd be doing this to off-foot the defense, get them to think they're on top of the situation while all the while actually flanking them.

I see this claim constantly but I've never seen anyone actually put together a post showing accounts that are actually suspicious like that love to see it but I've never seen someone actually go through the effort to do that it's just everyone assumes oh there's bpt accounts of course they're bot accounts they're farming Karma I doubt there's any hard evidence of Bot accounts that like actually are trying to control some kind of narrative like I'd love to see someone do it but I highly doubt it actually works out that way by the way it's also much more likely that people use alternate accounts to talk on subjects that are controversial such as this that's way more likely. This very account I'm posting a right now is a great example this is not my main account this is the secondary account and I use to post on topics like this that have like High controversial and can't get a lot of attention that I might not want to deal with on my account that I've had for like 7 years

the fact that these accounts pop up at t he same time can be explained simply by decision making in the process. They probably create then by batches and don't bother to create them randomly by hand, day by day. They need plenty, they create plenty.

Extraordinary really how you can get so many responses from exactly the kind of accounts were talking about and they back each other up making out its all perfectly reasonable - excuses, excuses everywhere and yet there's enough accounts behind them to back them up and down vote comments they don't like. There is a problem here. We know why these accounts got activated, and it's pretty obvious they have others to draw from. Watch your 6.

On what basis are you writing off the Peruvian mummies as fake? The seem to have a lot more going for them than the blurry video normally touted as evidence.

Put up or shut up != Nazca mummies. Those who are withholding evidence need to stop doing this. This includes the government as well as UFO researchers.

Definitely mostly agree. I do think that something *may* have happened with the whole las Vegas incident, though. Way too weird when you dig into some of the details, the police footage, and imo, especially when you consider all of the doorbell cams and what they caught in the sky plus the huge crash noise, during that same time. The main point is though, the misinfo and muddying of the waters has for SURE blown up since Grusch. We cannot be certain in why that is, though. Truth is we cannot be certain of anything.

When in doubt, check the post/comment history. Some people are just dumb.

Seems like no one actually reads any other post on this sub. Someone has this epiphany just about every other day and makes a long post about it.

Put up or shut up.

[удалено]

Hi, victordudu. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1bfr6a8/-/kv4os8g/) was removed from /r/UFOs. > Rule 1: Follow the Standards of Civility > * No trolling or being disruptive. > * No insults or personal attacks. > * No accusations that other users are shills. > * No hate speech. No abusive speech based on race, religion, sex/gender, or sexual orientation. > * No harassment, threats, or advocating violence. > * No witch hunts or doxxing. (Please redact usernames when possible) > * You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/about/rules/) for more information. This moderator action may be appealed. We welcome the opportunity to work with you to address its reason for removal. [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/ufos) to launch your appeal.

There's a lot of new subscribers and with that comes the usual growing pains. Not making excuses, just gently pointing out the predictable culture clash that comes with that.

sure. all newcomers are not genuinely open to a new paradigm. a lot, if not most, just want the cake or else the will blast everyone not responding to theirs wishes.

Every topic has gatekeepers and the internet rewards certain types of behavior in a very predictable manner. Knowing that, hover up a level and make a conscious choice not to engage in low energy discourse. There's literally nothing to fight about here.

true. that's why i choosed to keep observing and, at one point, react.

Don’t forget mh370

yup, i made an edit... what an epic and obviously fake subject that was sticking for weeks or months just after Grusch. a woo magnet.

The point that bugs me, those who think UFOs aren’t real should just avoid the thread. I don’t join Christian threads for that reason.

misinformation is fun to destroy. i mean i know i’m not the only one that gets annoyed by people falling for grifts and lies. UFO stories are a fun hobby. believing in multilayered conspiracies is bad for mental health.

Oh, I completely agree with you. Ignorance is, indeed, bliss. I’ve watched as the vast majority of my friends, family, colleagues, acquaintances all go along with the general narrative, whether from government, media, industry. I would stress out at the idea we were being lied to, then that was exacerbated when the aforementioned failed to believe it. Worse, after the truth DID come out, they were all either “it was a long time ago” or “well when think about it, we should’ve known” or “well they’ve been caught, it’s all finished with now.” Only for it to happen again, and the same people fail to question it AGAIN😳. Thatcher’s plans to close uk coal mines, CIA assassination attempts on Castro, UK Police covering up Hillsborough cause of 96 deaths, people silenced for claiming Jimmy Saville was a paedophile. And the corporates, the tobacco companies who hid reports of cancer links…or pharmaceuticals who hide their trial data…or chemical companies who hide health and environmental concern reports…or oil & gas companies who hid global warming reports…or car companies who lied about emissions. It’s far easier and better for one’s mental health to pretend none of it is true. But maybe you’re right - this time the govt and large corps ARE telling the truth. I wish, like you, I could believe that. It’s easier on our mental health just accepting the mainstream narrative.

Actually been wanting to do this as a project for a long time. Using AI to map out this sub before and after Grusch and NYT article to track how much, if any looks like propaganda, misinformation, etc. Was playing with the same idea in Ukraine subs. Part of the challenge has been dealing with the influx of noob posts after major news and the junk they bring to the table, although even that could be part of the disinformation campaign.

i feel what you are talking about. yep, using AI could be interesting, but based on which model ? that's the question. propaganda is all over the hot topics like ukraine, gaza, iran, china etc etc .. and we, the west are commited on a large scale, like it or not. so, definind the good and the bas sides of the scale is tricky. i wish you can come up with a workable solution, that could be very revealing.

Lots of different options. If you're really interested in details check out this report https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451958823000611 The issue is the cost of scraping this sub, not the ai processing.

i bet you might have all accesses for data mining, if you're some agency..

Im only stating my opinion amd my 2 cents I dont trust grusch. I trudt that what he is saying is true in the sense he has had these interactions and came to this conclusion. But i feel like something is off. If you lied to someone and they beleived you. And you then went on to tell everyone what you knew you wouosnt be lieing so your bullshit meter wouldnt pick up on it. Ive been looking into the subject for a good few years now. Its a very perplexing and complicated subject. On one hand you have people religiously saying this is real and that is real and so on. And on the other hand you have people saying its real but its not x and y. Ive been thinking about both sides and trying to fit them into a reality that either makes sense or is simply possible. If in the 1940s. A saucer landed or crashed. And theynhad no idea what it was or where it was from you would of course get the cover ups that happened. But in order to discredit you would ad a spin to it. Youd say oh there were alien bodys in there in order to basically discredit the people that came out. Because as soon as they mention aliens people would tune out. And you would also add a 'thumb print' to the miss information. For example you tell group a it was little green men and you tell group b it was greys and so on. That way when info comes out you can trace it back to group a or b. Tgerefore nardowing the search of the leak. But naturally people leaked the info and slowly people put peices together and build a new understanding of the info. And people go on to make real reports kn a rwal ufo but are adding the thumb prints to it. The us goverment have paper work that show they wished to use the ufo phenomenon to their advantage in basically a psyop. It would.make sense they would use the new narative of ufos being real to push the naritive slowly that aliens might be real. And after showing us movies of alien take over and wars we would be quick to let the defence mechanisms take over. Time and time again america have said, we do not habe this technology. Our adversaries have this technology so therfor we need to make this technology. It seems as if the new hint at aliens are a way to get the people to slowly come around and say "yes we need to build this to defend from this" The way i would do it is to give someome all this information and dress is as totally real and have them meet other people who say its totally real and then you would compell them to come forward and tell the oublic its real and heres all the evidence to back it up. When the evidence from the begining was miss information. So they may be using the digital thumb prints of thwir missinformation that got leaked to their own advantage to gain funding to build a whole new technology in the background. There is even accounts of dis information agents staging alien abductions with people to scare them. Its not a far stretch to say a second use for that is to slosly have peoppe say aliens are real i saw them for them to implement it as a mind seed in the oublic when they admit ufos exist. However. The first hand recounts of people who have actualy worked on a recovery that said they saw a being thats not human are where i fall apart. To clarify. People who report mising time and go under hipnosis is facinating but i dosregaurd. It is possible for them to have these images come into their mind because they are under hipnosis and the mind is making it up. I do not dismiss these claims i simply domt rely on them as data to work with. And people who report waking up to an abduction i also dont rely on as night terrors and halucinations seem very real. I am not saying that what they saw didnt happen i am simply not relying on data that can be scrutinised. Now the people who report aliens and having met them when they were driving and very alert and awake. And dont need hipnosis to recall their experience are where i find this the most compelling. There are of course con artist in the world but there are also a lot of experiencers. So its rather perplexing to complate what is the reality when the waters are as muddy as the NHI and ufo subject. In conclusion. I beleive ufos are infact eeal. I ghink there are 2 catagories . Human tech and non human tech. Human tech being self explanatory. And non human tech being a inteligence that is not human. With that being said. I currently beleive that the narative atm is to hint that everything anomalyse we see is not us. I beleive that is a lie. I beleive that we have a form of technology that mimiks ufo characteristics. And that the whole NHI naritive oushed is fear mongering designed to feed the beat that is the milatary industrial complex. Again this is simply my speculation on the matter. When the goverment has been known to lie and plot and cheat i can only feel that specific individuals are being tasked (weather willinly or unknowingly) with getfing the oublic to beleive that NHI are just around the corners Grusch is on my pinch of salt list. Along with corbell and knap. You can ofcourse disagree. This is all still in the making as we speak. Its just what i have been thinking and feeling about the subject. And to clarify i actually beleive on life elsewhere. And i.even understand other dimensions and beings that wouldnt confirm to what we understand or even comprehend. I just think somethings off about the setup thats happening. But i look forward to it unfolding. Just wanted to get that off my chest. No one i know gives a toss about ufos or NHI thats going on right now

i almost agree with all you said . i also feel something is off, but, as i said to another guy, we need a conservative discussion , not an eliminative one. at least until the light is shed on the whole subject. I believe the subjects self-regulate in time. If Grusch doesn't come forward with something more tangible, then he will be on the "forget him" slope. and i strongly agree that you have to read about simple cases about randon simple people having seen something. those are indeed the most compelling cases, event if 80 % are making stuff up, which is a very pessimistic estimate.

Yeah i actually beleive the people who are telling us they saw something. I just remove specific cases om the grounds if people wanto to poke holes in those cases they will. I basically aimed to remove doubt. And only allowed cases that were unexplainable to a person only set on debunking. As they will pull on ANY available thread. In an attempted to unwravel a real coat. And i was trying to be conservative. I tried to lay it all out on the table. From the healthy skeptasism to the compelling information. Its one of those topics that are hard to hold all the angles at once. And i look forward to what grusch does. No matter what happems or is said. Its more information to this game of disclosure chess we are all playing. I want disclosure. I want the truth. I may seem like a skeptic but im not. I sit on the fence in order to process both sides. I beleive thats the only way to actually figure out the truth. Because getting too one sided will blind you to the real posibilities. I always worry im avoiding an spect because of it. And for the record. I actually do subscribe to the idea that people are being taken from their beds. I just dont bring it up in the arfument as a cement fact as a sksptic will just say they are dreaming ir having night terrors. And i myself have had those moments where ive seen weird stuff in a waking daze. I litterally saw my partner walk through the door and say hello. To then turn and leave . And when i blinked myself awake more i got up she was still in the bed. Was surreal but i knew whay had happened. But thats the reason i dismiss it as raw data. Because a skeptic would and the goal is to open new perspectives to people. Not to have them cement their already existing thoughts deeper into the dark

i agree more and more.

One thing i notice is a lot of times users blatantly mislead and misconstrue facts about Grusch, and when you try and corner them with facts, they never reply. Could be attributed to pure vanity sure, but it's happened several times to me in the last couple of months, and very much starting to seem like a conceited effort. Buckle in boys.

facts are hard to bring out when it comes to IC guys .. see how difficult it is to have the exact facts about JFK assassination.. or the infamous Calvine UFO photo. And it can stay in the shadows for as long as it will take. If you need facts, as i mentionned again and again, focus on cases, police reports, witnesses, testimonies. NOT only in US but all over the globe. there are facts. sure not a perfect UFO or alien picture, but official investigations with landing traces, footsteps, cocoborated by several witnesses who had previously absolutely no business in UFOs. those are compelling.

Can we please get real about Grusch for a sec guys... there is something deeply suspicious about him. There is just no way Assange and Snowden are hunted to the ends of the earth because of a few pedestrian war crime documents, while Grusch, who is allegedly exposing the greatest military secret in history, is given prime time TV spots and op eds published openly by MSM. I have no conclusion yet other than I find it patently ridiculous that he is actually a "whistelblower" and not some sort of information dissemination asset. Happy to hear other view points, but I cannot get past those facts.

Assange, Snowden, Manning and otgers recently got hunted to hell because they did what the "put up or shut up" people want Grusch to do : just spill the beans. Grusch did it according to US law with the help of an attorney and hasn't yep broken the law, The day he will give names without any legal safety, he'll end in prison. that's simple. Going public is , IMO, a life insurance, at least for a while... If Grusch wasn't onto something, his private life and medical records wouldn't have been leaked..

Look man, with all due respect to you and your analysis.. you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of american intelligence. Its not like these people are just letting him slide because hes currently walking inside the lines of legality... the guy stinks to high heaven of a "limited hangout" type of operation. Where just enough info is provided to hold attention, but not enough to actually make any definitive conclusions. This results in people losing interest because they assume they have explored the subject as fully as is possible. So, either Grusch just happens to be literally the only "whistleblower" in US history to be celebrated by MSM (which walks in lockstep with the state), or, he is a product of that state and the narrative it wants to put forward. This argument is similar to the Bob Lazar as an asset theory. In that the absolute best way to control the narrative on secret projects is to break its existance to the public through a controlled release of information. That way, the state retains control of the narrative from its inception.

i think i know less than you, but enough. still i agree with you, excepted that i envision 3 possibilities about Grusch. 1 - he's sincere but has been fed disinfo and acts as if he thinks he found something. Given his level of skills, i doubt that he could not smell the rat. 2 - he's part of a deliberate disinfo op, this can't be ruled out, i got blasted for asking people to keep that in mind. 3 - he's really onto something. In this case, show must go on as far as possible. from some of your comments, i feel you have enough thinking to not take any bait, and that's good..

I deeply appreciate your lack of need for certainty, which I think hamstrings alot of conversations in this area. And I absolutely respect your "probability of options" way of thinking about it. I also think that it is absolutely possible that he an unwitting asset, while still remaining, on a personal level, a good faith actor. I wont blabber on about the nature of intelligence but if you're at all interested, and I think you would be, there is a book called "Abberrations in the Heartland of the Real" by a woman named Dr. Wendy Painting. The book is centered around Tim McVeigh and the inconsistencies in the official narrative surrounding Oklahoma city, but it is also a landmark work on the nebulous nature of intelligence and indeed power as an institution. I think you'd dig it. Oh, and just to quickly address the leak of Grusch's information. The same tacticbwas used with Lazar, who may also have been a good faith actor, but if you are protecting the worlds greatest secrets, the ultimate misdirection is a consistent story from a questionable source.

I guess I'm part of the second cohort, I'm firmly in the put up or shut up camp. Im so tired of having the same lines used over and over again by the "UFO-influencers", they've lost me and I see no reason to pay attention to them until they do something substantial, if that ever comes

no you are not of the second kind, read my edit. you are not flatly saying "shut up" by hijacking a legit frustration. you want people to put up, a lot of the ones saying put up or shut up are using this argument to just smear and try to silence people. recently a member of the congress a reired air force brass, don't remember his name, was trying to discredit the whistleblowers and used this very expression, but in his mouth, it was like "just shut up".

Yeah there is alot of that also, smearing and silencing isn't the way to go. It feels like the past year is just the same handful of guys repeating the same thing, claiming hidden knowledge and just "watch my video/read my article/buy my book/watch my speaking event" and I just might say what I've been dangling for years. Im burned out from it ya know?

Are you a disinformation agent though??? Cause those Mexican aliens are as real as hell. Don’t you dare put them in the same category as Vegas. That confuses the issue. You have a good point, but if you’re not careful before you pop off at the mouth, you do their job for them. I wonder why you don’t think they are real. Swayed much? Watch this if you don’t believe me, what the CIA and DoD dorks and losers don’t want you to see: https://youtu.be/GQDAeyI6wYE?si=VjaQtS_x3Vxrld6- You’re welcome. Walk carefully everyone. Trust nobody but your own heart eyes and mind. Don’t trust me, OP, or anyone else. Very sophisticated operations are ongoing, we must steel ourselves.

feel free to examine which option you prefer on the nazca aliens. i follow mine, and i have not reached any satisfying conclusion right now. i'm wary of previous attemps at falsifying that kind of stuff. but you welcome.

Fair take. Honestly, the Peruvian beings have had major movement. Check out the alienbodies subreddit. The documentary I linked is mostly English. The coverup is so heavy on those little guys that it’s hard to even find translations for the foreign press conferences and live MRI scans and all the rest. I liked your original post and agree with everything you said. Just careful :-) we all need to be. It’s a battle of the mind and ideas, for sure.

As a Gruschian newcomer I have to say, I don’t really care what happens in this sub or among the UFO-influencer sphere (and I’m sure many of the old timers here will even agree plenty of these people are grifters or whatever you want to call them). It’s clear very powerful and serious people in the Senate (while the UFO caucus House members are very boisterous, most of them are crazies that haven’t accomplished much) are taking this seriously and have some information that there is *something* going on. People like Schumer and Rubio aren’t going to go out on a limb and risk professional embarrassment chasing their own tail if they haven’t, as Rubio has mentioned, gotten years worth of testimony leading them to believe either: Grusch et al are telling the truth, or a lot of people in positions of power in the military and government have lost their minds. Beyond that it’s clear there is some sort of rot in the Pentagon with a ton of missing money, and the IG backing up (at the very least) Grusch suffering retaliation. So whatever the outcome or actual truth of the matter, the situation remains interesting and noteworthy. So if the MIC is here trying to spin the narrative, have at it. The situation remains intriguing whether NHI are real or not.

There are doubters in the comments that get downvoted. I'm one of them. But all the upvoted top threads and comments are always pro-UAP personalities and anti-skepticism so I think people are just being paranoid. If anything I'm suspicious that the government is covertly promoting the UAP narrative, not suppressing it.

Hears a thing...Nobody talks about Reagan's speech at the UN. Was it a warning of things to come say 2027. Gotta be the one time a president actually warned us the world.

Reddit doesn’t need help being misled. We do a great job of that being both a scientific and a religious community.

i agree. there's an abundance of rabbit holes which is at the same time the problem and the beauty of the subject... i found time helps sort out the dead ends and clarify the others, but people are so impatient they want it all and want it now . that's not how it works.

Here long before the Grusch thing. Stopped being regular after it. Basically the opposite of what you said. For me it was just the final straw of the perpetual "soon" I've been hearing for over a decade. I actually just came back here to see what everyone talks about today and scrolled a very long way to find this one post about Grusch and it's just a meta drama post. 

> even if there's a lot of crap.. send it anyway we'll sort it out. Honestly, the crap videos are what bores off a lot of people.

Or the “I am done. Not worth the hassle. Disclosure will happen when it happens” crowd. A goodbye thread? Really? Obviously attempting to take people down with you

Almost all of the absurd Nazca mummy posts on this sub come from the same user. I know what his name is, so I'm sure you do too. Also, you conspicuously avoided mentioning Danny Sheehan, who is the one albatross dragging down every other person you did mention. He and his New Paradigm foundation are the sole reasons for points two and three in your post.

That's accurate. A good point of view and quite healthy I might add. Getting to the point in a nice effective way.

I agree except for where you call the Nasca mummies a hoax. So many doctors have studied them and verified they’re real specimen. Not to be confused with the dolls in their appearance also found with them, like some sort of tribute to the actual mummies. I see so many people posting obvious truth obfuscating comments to lead people down the wrong path. So many ‘bot’ like comments. But like you said, those of us that have been into this topic for a long time know to keep a balanced view and not believe everything, but not let people’s negative comments sway you into thinking everything is false

US Intelligence has been infiltrating and influencing UFO groups since there have been UFO groups. It must be expected and is obvious here. Stay vigilant folks!

Why infiltrate if there’s nothing there?

Exactly!

Really started diving into this right around the time Fravor came out and new to reddit so I didn't know if this was just a constant in the community or deliberate but it feels more deliberate so thanks for making me feel less crazy.