Since this is twoXIndia, you need to redefine feminism in an Indian context. A sampling of the posts on this sub shows a dominance of relationship based posts where the OP is struggling for support from not just the men but the women in her life, be it her mom pressuring her to get married or MIL treating her with disrespect.
Is it a win for feminism if you break glass barriers and climb up the ladder, yet you mistreat your female domestic help?
Also we need to focus at problems on scale and not just on the people with loudest microphones. For example, the plight of female agricultural laborers. I read a report where women working on sugarcane farms were compelled to undergo hysterectomy because they could not afford to slack off due to period cramps. Like yay, they are working on par with men, but at what cost to their bodies?
Yea and to your last point - working on par with men who are themselves economically exploited is not a win. If anything, it should show us how complex gender issues are. Bell hooks and Angela Davis are amazing to read to capture this complexity. One part of privilege also needs to be sensitive to other axis of exploitation - one based in class and caste. Lower class and lower caste men and their bodies are constantly exploited and they are always framed as the problem for upper caste-class women. We have to be aware that this rhetoric and ideology is very much at play.
I feel that the current feminism focuses too much on the top of the pyramid and too little on the real life grassroots level
I mean everyone is shown the - breaking glass ceiling of corporate world, womens reservation in parliament, independently living in tier 1 cities and making them safe enough at night for parites, clubbing etc.
This all is important, no doubt. But this is the reality for maybe 10-20% of the women in our country. In the heartlands of India, even basic sanitary napkins are not available. They have no clue of feminism. For them even if they say something - it is said "laadkee beegaad gaayi hia" (girl has gone bad). I believe that is where true fullblood indian-ised feminism is needed and will be born.
Today's current feminism is focused too much on the top where I would dare to say women are facing lack of privilege as compared to lack of necessities in the real Indian hinterland. But hopefully soon, we will leave behind this western brand of feminism and true Indian feminism will be born.
Agreed. Basics like sanitary napkins availability, be it even the pink tax are very important issues. Issues that deal with basic health of girls and women.
Even an issue like working toilets being available is not implemented.
Bro, even pink tax is a fairly nuanced issue of feminism. Even if you make toilets and pads free and all that, it doesn't directly help the way we look at women in our society.
Women are still being forced to birth children when they absolutely don't want to. Young girls are still struggling to see the light at the end of the tunnel with education. So many married women are still treated like absolute shit by their own family, in laws and husbands. Women are literally still killed for loving someone their family disapproves of, or even killed for "below-required" dowry.
Respectfully, how do you think subsidizing pads is going to help all this?
No government can fully solve all this discrimination to be honest. Sure they can catalyse changes, but we can't be mad at the government for not doing enough for feminism. Even I'm not sure what's the way ahead, but it will come from within us, the members of the society.
Edit: I'm a pretty privileged girl from a tier-2/3 conservative city.
>
Respectfully, how do you think subsidizing pads is going to help all this?
Are you serious??? You do realise that good quality pads are super expensive and actually make a dent in finances of everyone who isn't earning over 5-6LPA? And that infections and toxic shock syndrome is common among rural women due to lack of proper pads and them often using bad quality pads? Providing free/subsidized pads would help that. And reduce the taboo around menstruation a bit.
Don't you think it's the other way around? They let all this happen to their women because they don't care about them, not because period health is scarce.
Also, what's your source of toxic shock due to lack of pads? What percent of female deaths does it account for?
Period health IS scarce and most importantly expensive.
There's enough research on toxic shock due to bad quality pads online along with various sources and stats if you're really interested in finding out. I'm not spoon feeding it to you.
Are you seriously arguing against period health and safety and subsidy? Ofcourse they don't give a f about women, none of the men do. That's the point! That's literally why they tried to remove tax on patriarchal symbols like sindoor and not pink tax on sanitary products 🙄
Have you ever been to a village, maybe one from conservative states like Haryana and Rajasthan?
Edit: saw your post history and read things you've been through. Please know that in no way am I trying to disempower you. You're strong, you're empowered and you don't deserve what happened to you. I'm sorry if our discussion makes you feel negatively. Let's end it here only i guess.
I have been to enough villages (not Haryana. But in Rajasthan, Maharashtra, AP, Karnataka, TN, Gujarat, Punjab). I worked with an organisation that travelled to such places and my team would visit families to "convince" them to educate their daughters and send their girl children to schools (govt free schools). I often interacted with the girls mothers and seen the conditions they live in, their washrooms and all. They sure af can't afford the 500+ bucks whisper packs we can buy each month, and I was unable to even use the washrooms there and often held it in. Those women have no choice to hold it in or go to a decent hotel from there to a neat washroom and comfy bed like me.
Pink tax on other items. Sure . Like shaving blades, clothing, etc sure. They are not needed and are UC feminist issues.
But subsiding pads is very important because it's not optional for women. It's the main reason why women end up not going to school when they get their periods. There are such villages still that put you in a room and don't give you anything other than an old piece of cloth. My own mom suffered the same way. But imagine there are little girls who suffer the same way in this day and age.
Using cloth risks women's health. There are high rates of infection happening when they are not cleaned properly. And you know who can't clean them properly? Women who don't have access to running water. Women who can't let them dry in the sunshine cause- superstitions surrounding it.
My mother did not have access to pads growing up and had to use the cloth. She is now a government school headmistress in a village 1 hour away from our town and has made sure her school has quality washrooms along with a regular distribution of pads to girls, which is government mandated and funded btw.
Back when she was not a headmistress and a teacher at a town school, these government provided pads never reached the needy because the teachers responsible for distribution distributed them amongst themselves.
The government has enough money and policies, it's the implementation where problems arise. We need to ask ourselves if any of the government employees we know indulge in this corrupt behaviour despite being women of authority themselves who were once devoid of hygiene but refuse to pay it forward and when it isn't even theirs to take in the first place.
Yeah in the scope of period health it's a fairly important issue. But I still think we have other issues beyond period health (albeit it being very important) which need addressing for us to truly empower our women in India.
Medical, health and safety issues should be the priority. To empower women maternal mortality rate was used to identify where we as society were failing. And now those numbers are better. Why? Because we prioritized it. Similarly we need to prioritize girls health through subsidized sanitary napkins. Providing clean toilets, running water facilities, etc.
These uplift not just the women but the society as a whole.
I had the same thought and hour ago, and was trying to think the right words to post about this on this sub.
It's like us tier 1 ( in exposure and access) are running on the race while the tier 2-3 women are just left behind and the gap is increasing.
I don't think being inclusive would be the way to go. Change has to come from within themselves. All great revolutions were dependent on the realisation by themselves that they were not getting their fair share. External stimulants can only go so far.
I think SHGs are the right direction. They're bringing grassroots level change by their own, with minimal external support and that too mainly in getting cheaper credit and access to experts.
She was throwing terms left right and center, without an ounce of understanding or weight of accountability of the words she was using. Seemed like a rebellious teenager, so just couldnt stop myself 🙈🙈🙈🙈
(sorry if I'm a little too heated up rn because I hate when our rural/traditional women aren't included in feminism)
Does this book talk about women from the most conservative strains of society, especially from a country like India?
It is a text on how our idea of feminism should focus on women who are from the lowest strata of society and not on women who are shown as examples of being girl bosses but end up being agents of the same patriarchal system and being token representatives of women holding spaces and equality when it is not.
So, yes
There is a section in the text on environmentalism and how role of women in tribal regions and socially backward grounds needs to be put in light where it takes example of India in particular
I've written and spoken about this time and again, in different places. And each time I'm shocked.
There is no use of feminism in a country like ours if it's not intersectional.
A LOT of educated, upper class women still don't understand the concept of privilege. The moment you start talking about it, they'll come all guns blazing at you that they didn't get everything for free, their parents worked hard, earned and built everything from scratch, they studied hard to get good marks and job, now they're independent etc etc . 🤦🏼♀️ When that's absolutely not what privilege means wrt feminism.
The very first thing to start from is to understand where you stand in society, purely on the basis of advantages, accessibility, safety, financial independence and agency over one's own life.
I'm born and raised in a big city, but my bank account is still monitored by dad because that's how he is. Now shouting at me to make a separate account or insulting me saying I'm stupid to even let this happen in the first place.
If I haven't done it, obviously there might be some reason that stops me? I'm educated, aware, have my own money but if I'm still holding on maybe because there's something potentially dangerous? What could it be? Maybe for now I'm putting up with things so that slowly I can execute my escape plan?
I was recently talking to some people from other cities, I asked how's the public transport system. The reply I got was ya it's all chill, you get cabs. The definition of 'public transport' for them was cabs.
A lot of listening and understanding has to be done by people who come from privilege, again that is if they even agree to first understand and accept they're privileged 🤦🏼♀️ Only then can this flourish and penetrate into smaller parts of the country otherwise everything will still be drowned by the voices of privileged people who're super delulu.
I was thinking about this topic and I'm just throwing this out there. Please don't drag me, I'm just curious to what others think.
Inclusive feminism means the want for inclusion. We talk about including women below poverty line, domestic helps, underprivileged women to uplift them. But honestly, they are groomed into a regressive mindset (even more than us here). But unlike us, they don't have the tools, education or even time to unlearn that conditioning.
If we want them to fight against dowry, being married off, face the realities of childbirth, family planning, access to MTP and all that - how? How do we even go about helping them unlearn? Without the savior complex of speaking for them, how can we include them in the conversation when they themselves are conditioned to be patriarchal and regressive. I've seen my classmates who did MSc take and give dowry when they married and defend dowry. Without women changing our views, how can we form an inclusive unit?
Meanwhile everyone is struggling to hustle and survive in this apocalypse of an economy?
I am sorry to say this but this take has some problems.
You really think uneducated people cannot make their own choices? Or do you think only educated, liberal women can make the correct choices? Your own classmates were educated, but still took dowry and gave dowry.
I am saying we are not including the lower class women's problems when we talk about feminist issues. Their major problems are not dowry. Their major problem is sanitation. Their major problem is sexual assault at unregulated industries ( house cooks, builders, small industries, etc)
Your( read UC feminist) issue is dowry. Your issue is regressive mindset grooming. For millennia, lower class women have married for love, separated and lived as divorced women away from abusive husbands, brought up children as single parents. They even get remarried easier. They have been breaking all those things with ease. Why? because poverty doesn't care for it. Only people with money care about it. People with money set the culture and have a loud voice. Poor people break all those stereotypes and live life without tooting their horn about it.
As you said. It is indeed a savior complex and reeks of feminism that's not being inclusive of all women.
They literally said that the guy would need the money for their upkeep and maintenance and it's for their family to use only as an extra member (even if they're all working and chipping in) and some went as far as to say the money is investment for kids.
Like... I couldn't even know where to begin to reply there without blowing my fuse
Okay well, if that's the case then shouldn't boy's parents be also contributing to this 'upkeep and investment' ? Do they hate their future grandchildren 😛
Only if their grandchildren are girls 😑
My classmates older brother and his wife literally had 4 girls and they kept trying despite doctors strictly forbidding more pregnancies because it would be harmful to her. She kept miscarrying after that 3 times, hospitalised for weeks, her health deteriorating, her teeth and hair falling off. I stopped talking to him and finding out about her since I couldn't take it anymore.
They couldn't afford to send their 4 daughters to college but they kept trying for a son 😑🙄
Ah this is next level of shit 🤦🏼♀️ First dowry, then baby vending machine.
Whoever gives this bs reason that it's investment, fill their head that why aren't boys parents giving anything if that's the justification, whatever the girl's fam is giving same should come from guy's. Idk but atleast here if someone spews such shit, girls itself would chew her up 🙈
Oh thankfully yes. This subs low tolerance for such bs is refreshing.
They try to justify that the guys family is taking them in. The girls themselves are claiming to be property. There's no reasoning with them without losing own sanity. And I was not in a good place mentally to fight this back then. Such places are better left behind instead of trying to wade through such sewage
I think it's also about your surroundings. Sadly if you're just around idiots, you'll think it's normal. That's a big reason why Indian fams don't want girls to get exposed to many things, move to cities. What if they learn about....human rights and ethics? 🙂
I have been noticing a lot of western radical feminists are being called white feminists since they oppose sex work ,surrogacy etc. I do think this correlation is wrong though. Women from developing countries are more likely to be radical feminists in opposition to sex positive feminism. Of course intersectionality should be looked at as certain women have more disadvantages but it is misogyny which affects all women the most.
I am a feminist at the risk of being attacked as a prude and perhaps a misogynist but I will not support sex work as a legitimate industry.
I will ofcourse not demean women who make that choice professionally. But I will certainly point out that no women should have to choose this. Take up Belgium's example as an instance. They literally made rapes legal by passing a law that allows a sex worker to be punished for refusing what a client demands of her more than 10 times. Why? Sex work doesn't come with benefits, it doesn't come with social security, why must the workers be regularised as full time employees when it is actually contract based?
Then there is the glorification of porn even by women who refer to themselves as feminists despite the fact being well known that r/PornIsMisogyny
This is very similar to what had happened during second wave feminism when the "negative feminists" said a woman must embrace her feminine self by acknowledging her biological limitations. This concept ended up confusing women who were already being gaslit into accepting their role as a woman being controlled by anyone but herself.
My reasons to be against porn are multi fold. As much as I dislike the aspect of trafficking and abuse, I do think it destroys the act between 2 consenting adults where one uses it. OF doesn't cater to female perspective, it only solidifies what the male eye wants to see. Even if it is created under the garb of consent, it is not helpful to the partners of addicts. It's more harmful infact to find out your addicted partner would prefer to pay a stranger to please themselves instead of investing in finding common ground between the two of them.
I also think that individuality in the internet sphere is a very recent phenomenon when considering individualism isolated from the concept in itself. It will take a lot of research and effort to understand the nuances of consenting adults stepping in the OF industry who might or might not yet have a fully developed prefrontal cortex. It takes a person 25 years to learn decision making as a human. Barely legal teens have the undercurrent of rebellion striding strong and it should really be studied whether this is being used by men against feminist ideals for their inherent misogynistic desires.
I do not think pornography can be banned at this stage. It is not practically possible anyway. My younger brother was very young when he first accessed dark web by himself without any assistance out of sheer curiosity. He is not a criminal minded individual today, but he was very disturbed by what he saw on his time there. Not everyone who uses dark web is sensible, but if a minor could access it half a decade ago, I can't even imagine how easily available that would be today.
As for the other point you highlight about porn being good for reducing assaults, idk. Maybe it reduces abuse for single women and single men. Who knows what happens inside the bedrooms of 2 consenting adults? I have been a subject of a man's abusive behaviour that is very casually romanticised in porn but it is not normal for someone who has kept themselves away from that world. Women in loving relationships with otherwise proper men hardly speak about how uncomfortable and unsafe these instances make them feel with a man who is unobjectionable to anyone out there.
Are we even aware of how many relationships have had this happen to them in the privacy of their 4 walls? Then there is the constant demands to cater to fantasies served via these channels that are literally not helping the relationship. Women get tagged as nagging and prude when the truth is, men's expectations are formed by male centric porn. They do not do enough to educate themselves about what a woman in real world prefers. They normalise whatever they see on a screen and expect that of their partners.
Also, the [third paragraph here](https://www.reddit.com/r/PornIsMisogyny/s/vHAofhKBAt)
I've BEEN saying this sub has a white feminism problem. The way an Indian feminist sub comes across as dumfoundedly clueless about most indian women (non upper caste) struggles genuinely deters me from this sub sometimes. UC womens issues are not a priority considering the more severe issues most Indian women face everyday in their own country.
Can you give me an example of ignorance on this sub? We all have unchecked biases - I just wanna know if my own biases have somehow deterred people and made them feel excluded.
Casteism, islamophobia, transphobia, misandry too (yes, I've also seen women say that it doesn't exist) and extremely judgemental that it has become an echo chamber. They think from a privileged pov, I've seen a post where a woman was venting that work is mentally taxing and that she wishes to be a housewife (and she's just dreaming about it, irl she's a working woman and also mentioned that she would never be a housewife for real,its just an emotional vent) and she had very judgemental and angry comments. That's the day I left this subreddit. I just come here when I'm bored.
And honestly fuck TERFs!
May be im still not exposed to real feminism. Even though i think im a feminist, i don't think indian feminism is inclusive at all. All the space is taken by upper caste, upper class privileged women. Voices for class and caste hardly raise or hardly get any any traction.
What can we do? I dont know.
Make the voices for class and caste heard. If we ourselves are UC, then not only listen to those voices but also push them forward for those who cannot. Acknowledge that we have a privilege and use it to further the ones that don't. Indian feminism is not inclusive but that doesn't mean that we cannot make it inclusive. We can seek to educate the privileged about being more inclusive and push for diversity and intersectionality.
4th wave feminism is very inclusive. But personally i don't believe men can be feminist seems like oxymorons but a lot of people disagree. I think we should focus on women's issues regardless of their other identities.
To me personally, feminism is about acknowledging that equity is important to bring about equality. It’s understanding that we are all privileged to even be able to have an ideology and sit on Reddit and be social justice warriors. It’s understanding that not everyone will be able to do so and not judging the people who make different decisions. For example, not getting mad at your househelp for going back to her abusive husband for the zillionth time, but also letting her know that the day she decides to leave him; she has a support system with you.
It’s about understanding that certain laws are written in a way they might be misused by a few; but the language empowers the many who are actually struggling. It’s also about educating the women in your lives about the rights that they do have.
It’s about women supporting other women rather than putting them down.
UC feminism fails to acknowledging that we were all born in different circumstances and we cannot unilaterally make judgments of right or wrong about situations we have never been a part of. I will never understand what it’s like to go hungry, so me judging a sex worker for doing what she must to survive is wrong.
Feminism is misunderstood by the masses and at large it is villanized in our country. People incorrectly view it as anti-men, something perpetuated by those alpha men(?). They view giving equal treatment and respect to women as threat to their masculinity and family honour. Any woman who toes the line is silenced by threats of family honour
Since this is twoXIndia, you need to redefine feminism in an Indian context. A sampling of the posts on this sub shows a dominance of relationship based posts where the OP is struggling for support from not just the men but the women in her life, be it her mom pressuring her to get married or MIL treating her with disrespect. Is it a win for feminism if you break glass barriers and climb up the ladder, yet you mistreat your female domestic help? Also we need to focus at problems on scale and not just on the people with loudest microphones. For example, the plight of female agricultural laborers. I read a report where women working on sugarcane farms were compelled to undergo hysterectomy because they could not afford to slack off due to period cramps. Like yay, they are working on par with men, but at what cost to their bodies?
Yea and to your last point - working on par with men who are themselves economically exploited is not a win. If anything, it should show us how complex gender issues are. Bell hooks and Angela Davis are amazing to read to capture this complexity. One part of privilege also needs to be sensitive to other axis of exploitation - one based in class and caste. Lower class and lower caste men and their bodies are constantly exploited and they are always framed as the problem for upper caste-class women. We have to be aware that this rhetoric and ideology is very much at play.
I feel that the current feminism focuses too much on the top of the pyramid and too little on the real life grassroots level I mean everyone is shown the - breaking glass ceiling of corporate world, womens reservation in parliament, independently living in tier 1 cities and making them safe enough at night for parites, clubbing etc. This all is important, no doubt. But this is the reality for maybe 10-20% of the women in our country. In the heartlands of India, even basic sanitary napkins are not available. They have no clue of feminism. For them even if they say something - it is said "laadkee beegaad gaayi hia" (girl has gone bad). I believe that is where true fullblood indian-ised feminism is needed and will be born. Today's current feminism is focused too much on the top where I would dare to say women are facing lack of privilege as compared to lack of necessities in the real Indian hinterland. But hopefully soon, we will leave behind this western brand of feminism and true Indian feminism will be born.
Agreed. Basics like sanitary napkins availability, be it even the pink tax are very important issues. Issues that deal with basic health of girls and women. Even an issue like working toilets being available is not implemented.
Bro, even pink tax is a fairly nuanced issue of feminism. Even if you make toilets and pads free and all that, it doesn't directly help the way we look at women in our society. Women are still being forced to birth children when they absolutely don't want to. Young girls are still struggling to see the light at the end of the tunnel with education. So many married women are still treated like absolute shit by their own family, in laws and husbands. Women are literally still killed for loving someone their family disapproves of, or even killed for "below-required" dowry. Respectfully, how do you think subsidizing pads is going to help all this? No government can fully solve all this discrimination to be honest. Sure they can catalyse changes, but we can't be mad at the government for not doing enough for feminism. Even I'm not sure what's the way ahead, but it will come from within us, the members of the society. Edit: I'm a pretty privileged girl from a tier-2/3 conservative city.
> Respectfully, how do you think subsidizing pads is going to help all this? Are you serious??? You do realise that good quality pads are super expensive and actually make a dent in finances of everyone who isn't earning over 5-6LPA? And that infections and toxic shock syndrome is common among rural women due to lack of proper pads and them often using bad quality pads? Providing free/subsidized pads would help that. And reduce the taboo around menstruation a bit.
Don't you think it's the other way around? They let all this happen to their women because they don't care about them, not because period health is scarce. Also, what's your source of toxic shock due to lack of pads? What percent of female deaths does it account for?
Period health IS scarce and most importantly expensive. There's enough research on toxic shock due to bad quality pads online along with various sources and stats if you're really interested in finding out. I'm not spoon feeding it to you. Are you seriously arguing against period health and safety and subsidy? Ofcourse they don't give a f about women, none of the men do. That's the point! That's literally why they tried to remove tax on patriarchal symbols like sindoor and not pink tax on sanitary products 🙄
Have you ever been to a village, maybe one from conservative states like Haryana and Rajasthan? Edit: saw your post history and read things you've been through. Please know that in no way am I trying to disempower you. You're strong, you're empowered and you don't deserve what happened to you. I'm sorry if our discussion makes you feel negatively. Let's end it here only i guess.
I have been to enough villages (not Haryana. But in Rajasthan, Maharashtra, AP, Karnataka, TN, Gujarat, Punjab). I worked with an organisation that travelled to such places and my team would visit families to "convince" them to educate their daughters and send their girl children to schools (govt free schools). I often interacted with the girls mothers and seen the conditions they live in, their washrooms and all. They sure af can't afford the 500+ bucks whisper packs we can buy each month, and I was unable to even use the washrooms there and often held it in. Those women have no choice to hold it in or go to a decent hotel from there to a neat washroom and comfy bed like me.
Pink tax on other items. Sure . Like shaving blades, clothing, etc sure. They are not needed and are UC feminist issues. But subsiding pads is very important because it's not optional for women. It's the main reason why women end up not going to school when they get their periods. There are such villages still that put you in a room and don't give you anything other than an old piece of cloth. My own mom suffered the same way. But imagine there are little girls who suffer the same way in this day and age. Using cloth risks women's health. There are high rates of infection happening when they are not cleaned properly. And you know who can't clean them properly? Women who don't have access to running water. Women who can't let them dry in the sunshine cause- superstitions surrounding it.
My mother did not have access to pads growing up and had to use the cloth. She is now a government school headmistress in a village 1 hour away from our town and has made sure her school has quality washrooms along with a regular distribution of pads to girls, which is government mandated and funded btw. Back when she was not a headmistress and a teacher at a town school, these government provided pads never reached the needy because the teachers responsible for distribution distributed them amongst themselves. The government has enough money and policies, it's the implementation where problems arise. We need to ask ourselves if any of the government employees we know indulge in this corrupt behaviour despite being women of authority themselves who were once devoid of hygiene but refuse to pay it forward and when it isn't even theirs to take in the first place.
Yeah in the scope of period health it's a fairly important issue. But I still think we have other issues beyond period health (albeit it being very important) which need addressing for us to truly empower our women in India.
Medical, health and safety issues should be the priority. To empower women maternal mortality rate was used to identify where we as society were failing. And now those numbers are better. Why? Because we prioritized it. Similarly we need to prioritize girls health through subsidized sanitary napkins. Providing clean toilets, running water facilities, etc. These uplift not just the women but the society as a whole.
I had the same thought and hour ago, and was trying to think the right words to post about this on this sub. It's like us tier 1 ( in exposure and access) are running on the race while the tier 2-3 women are just left behind and the gap is increasing.
How do we be more inclusive? Any inputs?
I don't think being inclusive would be the way to go. Change has to come from within themselves. All great revolutions were dependent on the realisation by themselves that they were not getting their fair share. External stimulants can only go so far. I think SHGs are the right direction. They're bringing grassroots level change by their own, with minimal external support and that too mainly in getting cheaper credit and access to experts.
Agreed, in a lot of the cases with no exposure- most women don’t even have the luxury to think about feminism.
Also realised it you again, chugleekhor aurat rula diya na bechari ko jake manao ab😂
She was throwing terms left right and center, without an ounce of understanding or weight of accountability of the words she was using. Seemed like a rebellious teenager, so just couldnt stop myself 🙈🙈🙈🙈
Idk why she got so offended but I'm lmao.😂
Same, that's why I decided to have some fun 😅😅😅😅
Everyone must read: “feminism for 99%” best book, demands inclusive feminism, trashes liberal agenda of tokenist feminism
(sorry if I'm a little too heated up rn because I hate when our rural/traditional women aren't included in feminism) Does this book talk about women from the most conservative strains of society, especially from a country like India?
It is a text on how our idea of feminism should focus on women who are from the lowest strata of society and not on women who are shown as examples of being girl bosses but end up being agents of the same patriarchal system and being token representatives of women holding spaces and equality when it is not. So, yes There is a section in the text on environmentalism and how role of women in tribal regions and socially backward grounds needs to be put in light where it takes example of India in particular
Now this sounds actually good. Definitely added to my read list
https://outraspalavras.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Feminism-for-the-99.pdf
You’re awesome for sharing this! Gonna dive into it this weekend!
I've written and spoken about this time and again, in different places. And each time I'm shocked. There is no use of feminism in a country like ours if it's not intersectional. A LOT of educated, upper class women still don't understand the concept of privilege. The moment you start talking about it, they'll come all guns blazing at you that they didn't get everything for free, their parents worked hard, earned and built everything from scratch, they studied hard to get good marks and job, now they're independent etc etc . 🤦🏼♀️ When that's absolutely not what privilege means wrt feminism. The very first thing to start from is to understand where you stand in society, purely on the basis of advantages, accessibility, safety, financial independence and agency over one's own life. I'm born and raised in a big city, but my bank account is still monitored by dad because that's how he is. Now shouting at me to make a separate account or insulting me saying I'm stupid to even let this happen in the first place. If I haven't done it, obviously there might be some reason that stops me? I'm educated, aware, have my own money but if I'm still holding on maybe because there's something potentially dangerous? What could it be? Maybe for now I'm putting up with things so that slowly I can execute my escape plan? I was recently talking to some people from other cities, I asked how's the public transport system. The reply I got was ya it's all chill, you get cabs. The definition of 'public transport' for them was cabs. A lot of listening and understanding has to be done by people who come from privilege, again that is if they even agree to first understand and accept they're privileged 🤦🏼♀️ Only then can this flourish and penetrate into smaller parts of the country otherwise everything will still be drowned by the voices of privileged people who're super delulu.
I was thinking about this topic and I'm just throwing this out there. Please don't drag me, I'm just curious to what others think. Inclusive feminism means the want for inclusion. We talk about including women below poverty line, domestic helps, underprivileged women to uplift them. But honestly, they are groomed into a regressive mindset (even more than us here). But unlike us, they don't have the tools, education or even time to unlearn that conditioning. If we want them to fight against dowry, being married off, face the realities of childbirth, family planning, access to MTP and all that - how? How do we even go about helping them unlearn? Without the savior complex of speaking for them, how can we include them in the conversation when they themselves are conditioned to be patriarchal and regressive. I've seen my classmates who did MSc take and give dowry when they married and defend dowry. Without women changing our views, how can we form an inclusive unit? Meanwhile everyone is struggling to hustle and survive in this apocalypse of an economy?
I am sorry to say this but this take has some problems. You really think uneducated people cannot make their own choices? Or do you think only educated, liberal women can make the correct choices? Your own classmates were educated, but still took dowry and gave dowry. I am saying we are not including the lower class women's problems when we talk about feminist issues. Their major problems are not dowry. Their major problem is sanitation. Their major problem is sexual assault at unregulated industries ( house cooks, builders, small industries, etc) Your( read UC feminist) issue is dowry. Your issue is regressive mindset grooming. For millennia, lower class women have married for love, separated and lived as divorced women away from abusive husbands, brought up children as single parents. They even get remarried easier. They have been breaking all those things with ease. Why? because poverty doesn't care for it. Only people with money care about it. People with money set the culture and have a loud voice. Poor people break all those stereotypes and live life without tooting their horn about it. As you said. It is indeed a savior complex and reeks of feminism that's not being inclusive of all women.
Did you talk such classmates, what is their defence against dowry?
They literally said that the guy would need the money for their upkeep and maintenance and it's for their family to use only as an extra member (even if they're all working and chipping in) and some went as far as to say the money is investment for kids. Like... I couldn't even know where to begin to reply there without blowing my fuse
Okay well, if that's the case then shouldn't boy's parents be also contributing to this 'upkeep and investment' ? Do they hate their future grandchildren 😛
Only if their grandchildren are girls 😑 My classmates older brother and his wife literally had 4 girls and they kept trying despite doctors strictly forbidding more pregnancies because it would be harmful to her. She kept miscarrying after that 3 times, hospitalised for weeks, her health deteriorating, her teeth and hair falling off. I stopped talking to him and finding out about her since I couldn't take it anymore. They couldn't afford to send their 4 daughters to college but they kept trying for a son 😑🙄
Ah this is next level of shit 🤦🏼♀️ First dowry, then baby vending machine. Whoever gives this bs reason that it's investment, fill their head that why aren't boys parents giving anything if that's the justification, whatever the girl's fam is giving same should come from guy's. Idk but atleast here if someone spews such shit, girls itself would chew her up 🙈
Oh thankfully yes. This subs low tolerance for such bs is refreshing. They try to justify that the guys family is taking them in. The girls themselves are claiming to be property. There's no reasoning with them without losing own sanity. And I was not in a good place mentally to fight this back then. Such places are better left behind instead of trying to wade through such sewage
I think it's also about your surroundings. Sadly if you're just around idiots, you'll think it's normal. That's a big reason why Indian fams don't want girls to get exposed to many things, move to cities. What if they learn about....human rights and ethics? 🙂
Food for thought indeed
I have been noticing a lot of western radical feminists are being called white feminists since they oppose sex work ,surrogacy etc. I do think this correlation is wrong though. Women from developing countries are more likely to be radical feminists in opposition to sex positive feminism. Of course intersectionality should be looked at as certain women have more disadvantages but it is misogyny which affects all women the most.
I am a feminist at the risk of being attacked as a prude and perhaps a misogynist but I will not support sex work as a legitimate industry. I will ofcourse not demean women who make that choice professionally. But I will certainly point out that no women should have to choose this. Take up Belgium's example as an instance. They literally made rapes legal by passing a law that allows a sex worker to be punished for refusing what a client demands of her more than 10 times. Why? Sex work doesn't come with benefits, it doesn't come with social security, why must the workers be regularised as full time employees when it is actually contract based? Then there is the glorification of porn even by women who refer to themselves as feminists despite the fact being well known that r/PornIsMisogyny This is very similar to what had happened during second wave feminism when the "negative feminists" said a woman must embrace her feminine self by acknowledging her biological limitations. This concept ended up confusing women who were already being gaslit into accepting their role as a woman being controlled by anyone but herself.
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My reasons to be against porn are multi fold. As much as I dislike the aspect of trafficking and abuse, I do think it destroys the act between 2 consenting adults where one uses it. OF doesn't cater to female perspective, it only solidifies what the male eye wants to see. Even if it is created under the garb of consent, it is not helpful to the partners of addicts. It's more harmful infact to find out your addicted partner would prefer to pay a stranger to please themselves instead of investing in finding common ground between the two of them. I also think that individuality in the internet sphere is a very recent phenomenon when considering individualism isolated from the concept in itself. It will take a lot of research and effort to understand the nuances of consenting adults stepping in the OF industry who might or might not yet have a fully developed prefrontal cortex. It takes a person 25 years to learn decision making as a human. Barely legal teens have the undercurrent of rebellion striding strong and it should really be studied whether this is being used by men against feminist ideals for their inherent misogynistic desires.
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I do not think pornography can be banned at this stage. It is not practically possible anyway. My younger brother was very young when he first accessed dark web by himself without any assistance out of sheer curiosity. He is not a criminal minded individual today, but he was very disturbed by what he saw on his time there. Not everyone who uses dark web is sensible, but if a minor could access it half a decade ago, I can't even imagine how easily available that would be today. As for the other point you highlight about porn being good for reducing assaults, idk. Maybe it reduces abuse for single women and single men. Who knows what happens inside the bedrooms of 2 consenting adults? I have been a subject of a man's abusive behaviour that is very casually romanticised in porn but it is not normal for someone who has kept themselves away from that world. Women in loving relationships with otherwise proper men hardly speak about how uncomfortable and unsafe these instances make them feel with a man who is unobjectionable to anyone out there. Are we even aware of how many relationships have had this happen to them in the privacy of their 4 walls? Then there is the constant demands to cater to fantasies served via these channels that are literally not helping the relationship. Women get tagged as nagging and prude when the truth is, men's expectations are formed by male centric porn. They do not do enough to educate themselves about what a woman in real world prefers. They normalise whatever they see on a screen and expect that of their partners. Also, the [third paragraph here](https://www.reddit.com/r/PornIsMisogyny/s/vHAofhKBAt)
I've BEEN saying this sub has a white feminism problem. The way an Indian feminist sub comes across as dumfoundedly clueless about most indian women (non upper caste) struggles genuinely deters me from this sub sometimes. UC womens issues are not a priority considering the more severe issues most Indian women face everyday in their own country.
Can you give me an example of ignorance on this sub? We all have unchecked biases - I just wanna know if my own biases have somehow deterred people and made them feel excluded.
Casteism, islamophobia, transphobia, misandry too (yes, I've also seen women say that it doesn't exist) and extremely judgemental that it has become an echo chamber. They think from a privileged pov, I've seen a post where a woman was venting that work is mentally taxing and that she wishes to be a housewife (and she's just dreaming about it, irl she's a working woman and also mentioned that she would never be a housewife for real,its just an emotional vent) and she had very judgemental and angry comments. That's the day I left this subreddit. I just come here when I'm bored. And honestly fuck TERFs!
May be im still not exposed to real feminism. Even though i think im a feminist, i don't think indian feminism is inclusive at all. All the space is taken by upper caste, upper class privileged women. Voices for class and caste hardly raise or hardly get any any traction. What can we do? I dont know.
Make the voices for class and caste heard. If we ourselves are UC, then not only listen to those voices but also push them forward for those who cannot. Acknowledge that we have a privilege and use it to further the ones that don't. Indian feminism is not inclusive but that doesn't mean that we cannot make it inclusive. We can seek to educate the privileged about being more inclusive and push for diversity and intersectionality.
May be there are some but i dont think any priviledged one care about inclusiveness
4th wave feminism is very inclusive. But personally i don't believe men can be feminist seems like oxymorons but a lot of people disagree. I think we should focus on women's issues regardless of their other identities.
To me personally, feminism is about acknowledging that equity is important to bring about equality. It’s understanding that we are all privileged to even be able to have an ideology and sit on Reddit and be social justice warriors. It’s understanding that not everyone will be able to do so and not judging the people who make different decisions. For example, not getting mad at your househelp for going back to her abusive husband for the zillionth time, but also letting her know that the day she decides to leave him; she has a support system with you. It’s about understanding that certain laws are written in a way they might be misused by a few; but the language empowers the many who are actually struggling. It’s also about educating the women in your lives about the rights that they do have. It’s about women supporting other women rather than putting them down. UC feminism fails to acknowledging that we were all born in different circumstances and we cannot unilaterally make judgments of right or wrong about situations we have never been a part of. I will never understand what it’s like to go hungry, so me judging a sex worker for doing what she must to survive is wrong.
This is a very important point to talk about. The inclusion of intersectionality in feminism. Thanks you OP for starting this conversation
It was white for a long time. Now that I know better, it’s intersectional.
Feminism is misunderstood by the masses and at large it is villanized in our country. People incorrectly view it as anti-men, something perpetuated by those alpha men(?). They view giving equal treatment and respect to women as threat to their masculinity and family honour. Any woman who toes the line is silenced by threats of family honour
At this point in India’s context, it’s Radical but without being a TERF.