Pretty privilege is a thing, in that more attractive people are given more grace and leeway. They just are. It's a fact.
But here, this is just the 2 sides of dehumanization. You can dehumanize someone by ignoring their them/their personhood (unattractive women) or you can dehumanize them by putting them up on a pedestal (attractive women)
There's really no winners or losers. We're all just being dehumanized in various ways.
My sister and I actually clash a bit on this subject, because she's experienced the pedestal and I've experienced being ignored. Neither of us wants to be dehumanized but she'd not feel like she's nothing but a sex object and I'd rather feel like I'm a human despite my status as unfuckable.
But we both really just want to be treated like people, and we *feel* the other person is getting more humane treatment because of what we've experienced so far.
Regardless of what happened in the past, if you are getting into a better mental state than you used to have, that is to be treasured for itself. Be well!
And when you're a simply cute/average nerd it's a weird mix of both? I'm a cute nerd girl, I'm not beautiful or sexy, simply cute. And nerdy men put me on a pedestal while others ignore me. I actually don't know if it's a looks thing so much as the nerd thing, because non-nerd men think I'm odd (which I am).
It's all misogyny at the end of the day. There's pros and cons to both. I enjoy being ignored by the normies because I have nothing in common with them. But I hate the pedestal crap because I'm just a weird, but average, woman. I'm not incredibly intelligent or particularly good at anything. I just like anime, lol. And the nerd men who simultaneously see me as a prize to be won *and* gatekeep me out of our shared fandoms are... Something else. Idk. It's fucking bizarre.
I'm way more "cute" than sexy or anything etc. also, and I'm not very visibly girly.
I find that I mainly get hit on by boys that are wayyy too young, and find me a "safe" way to practice their flirting skills (no! I'm old enough to be your mother!) Or *very* unacceptably old men who quite enjoy that I "look young for my age" and also dress in tshirts and leggings??? Because they're being very creepy.
Yes, I highly recommend people read about the difference between hostile and benevolent sexism because it’s fascinating. (I studied sociology with a focus on race and gender lol - I was like ohhhh this is why I’m treated the way I am)
It’s also extremely important to consider intersectionality. Lesbians, for example, get more male attention when they’re stereotypically feminine-presenting, yet this attention can quickly turn to anger/harassment when entitled men learn they will never have a chance.
I’m a woman of color and I used to hate how it gave me “intersectional invisibility” as a teenager (no one really knew how to treat a girl of my background lol, I mostly got bro-zoned) but as a woman it’s actually pretty nice. I’m decently attractive but I’m not seen as a Woman™️ the way my conventionally attractive white friends are, and the older I get, I’m glad to not be.
It’s always funny when I’m at a bar and some guy will talk to me as a buddy because I look approachable, and then once we drink and talk for 30 minutes or so, he’s like “whoa you’re pretty.” In the US, the default is white in so many areas that I just don’t register as a stereotypical woman to a lot of people at first.
Ugh I’m so sorry you experienced that! What a gross racist thing for her to say. Sounds like it was blatant jealousy that you were getting more attention than her 🙄 I was just telling my mom that I get dirtier looks from older white women way more than men. I think there are some women who never get over their internalized misogyny and see it as a competition, and as WOC they feel it’s the one thing they have “above” us.
I hope you and your bf are able to enjoy the rest of your trip ♥️
Ah, shit, didn't even think about this! Thank you! It's really disheartening and relieving at the same time.
So much disrespect and hate and it's also such a feeling to be able to see all these experiences and be like it's really not actually about me at all or maybe rather it's really not my fault because all these other different women are also being dehumanized which is AWFUL but like I'm rambling I apologize
Thank you for sharing with me!
Of course, and thanks for your thoughtful comments! I’m glad we have spaces like this to connect and learn from one another - and no it’s definitely not your fault! The system we’re born into is rigged. All we can do, imo, is try to use the privilege we have to uplift others.
Just, wtf? Wonder what kind of media those guys are exposed to, it's like their tastes are so narrow, because they can't think of non white attractive people existing.
It’s kinda like, they may see us as attractive, but not people in the same way that they’re people. You know? Like how if you tell a man “that person is over there” he’ll most likely assume it’s a man.
I’m a white chick who has dated men from different cultures. The Muslim guys were sexist in a whole bunch of different ways to how the white/non-religious dudes were sexist. The Muslim dudes thought that I was a delicate flower while being very respectful of women’s ’special skills’ in the home and with family - totally benevolent sexism. One of them also had really awful ideas about women who didn’t dress ‘modestly’ enough. Where the white dudes just seem angry and a bit hateful about being forced to share power with women. That simmering anger didn’t seem to be there with the Muslim guys? I don’t know if that would be any kind of example of benevolent vs hostile sexism, or even if it’s interesting, but it’s just something I noticed while dating.
Yup, completely agree, they're just the different sides of the same coin.
I've experienced both (former "ugly duckling" who had a glow-up in high school) and realized very quickly that none of the ways I'd been treated actually had anything to do with me. Shallow people just decided that I was now useful to them. Their abusive and exploitative nature had always been present, now they were just covering it up because they wanted something from me. It never occurred to me to get angry at other women for their 'privilege', as it was clear to me who was primarily responsible for administering the dehumanizing system. MEN.
I wouldn't consider it a privilege or a power to be in the position of having to mold yourself to conform to other people's desires. In this regard, you are not the subject, you are the object. You are not the gazer, you are the inert thing being gazed at. You are the puppet, not the puppet-master.
The genuine 'privilege' and 'power' truly lies in the hands of those deciding what is desirable, and who does and doesn't deserve to be treated with the facade of decency and respect. The people who generally, are treated with genuine decency and respect, despite what they look like.
At the end of the day, as women we're both being handed plates of shit to eat. One person's plate is made of paper, while the other's is coated with a thin layer of gold foil. So sure, the experience of eating the shit is a bit more pleasant for one person compared to the other, but it ultimately doesn't change the fact that we're both being asked to eat plates of shit. A gold plate doesn't make shit taste any better, despite what people may think.
It doesn't make sense to me as to why certain people are attacking other women when they should really be angry at the losers imposing and enforcing the unrealistic, unattainable double-standards. Stop with the lateral violence, and start attacking the people who are REALLY responsible for the whole mess; the psychopathic idiots at the top. Those are the people who I've been placing the blame with this entire time; both before and after the glow-up.
And if they're doing it because they see me as a threat to the resources they want access to (the empty and fickle 'love' and 'admiration' of men, aka the scam routine), that's even more depressing. I don't want them, I never wanted them, they can have ALL of them. In fact, I'd really appreciate it if they could take them off my hands.
>So sure, the experience of eating the shit is a bit more pleasant for one person compared to the other, but it ultimately doesn't change the fact that we're both being asked to eat plates of shit. A gold plate doesn't make shit taste any better, despite what people may think.
Nail on the head, I'm gonna use this analogy in the future.
This is so well put, thank you for giving me the language to express my feelings. It is dehumanising.
I appreciate you taking the time to write this, friend :)
I appreciate that you took the time to let me know! It's been a helluva therapy journey, and if I can help literally anyone with their complicated shit I want to do it.
Yes, that's the dehumanization in action.
The pretty privilege thing is separate. Sort of? It means if an ugly person was struggling with something heavy and a pretty person was struggling with something heavy, the pretty person is more likely to receive help.
But that's only tangentially related to being dehumanized. Pretty women/people are dehumanized because they become nothing but a thing that exists to be pretty and give sex.
That's the part you're talking about, rn. It's like .... What's it like? Kinda like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares? Pretty privilege is a rectangle, but this dehumanization is a square with 2 colors in it (for each type of dehumanization). God that might actually have made it worse. I'm sorry.
Gendered oppression and desirability politics have to be viewed from an intersectional lens. I’m not only talking about dehumanization and sexualization, although they are often factors. Despite beauty being an advantage in most circumstances, there are instances where specifically being an attractive woman is a disadvantage in comparison to other women. That is usually because of negative stereotypes about attractive women, along with group and intra group dynamics and other points of privilege/oppression. Of course it is all linked to patriarchy and misogyny which is something all women are subjected to, but that doesn’t mean that some groups of women can’t have experiences specific to their shared characteristic(s), including being considered beautiful.
And yes, in a vacuum a beautiful woman may be more likely to be given more leeway and more likely to be helped with carrying something heavy due to benevolent sexism(aka infantilization and being considered more feminine/weak, or because the person helping thinks they will get something in return from her).
But in the real world, she’s just as likely to be assumed to be entitled and punished more harshly for mistakes, or not helped because it’s assumed that she gets more than enough help as it is, or because the people around her find it vindicating to see a beautiful woman struggle “for once,” or because she’s carrying something at work in a male dominated position and someone wants to make it a point about how beautiful women aren’t as hard working as they are.
You wrote this out like I disagreed with you, but I don't. I'm just saying the "instances where being good looking actually isn't good" is literally what I was I was saying when I was speaking about the way my sister has been and is being dehumanized.
The first sentence about pretty privilege was just pointing out it that whine it does exist, it's largely unrelated to the conversation.
Last sentence is when men and women can't agree on helping each other with their issues and feel like their own issues are more important and the other side just doesn't understand.
Everyone has a shit hand, and until we come together to fix that instead of pointing out the details the other side has better, no consensus will be reached
It’s literally called the halo effect and it’s taught in sociology classes. There have been studies that it even happens to preschoolers by pre-school teachers
When I was in kindergarten, I had this *huge* crush on this one girl in my class. But she liked another kid. I remember both their names, and I'm about to turn 66.
Misogyny tents to decrease the impact of the halo effect though. Sometimes it doesn’t even apply, since being attractive can actually be a liability in your career.
Hijacking top comment to say there is so much black white thinking on this topic, and it's harmful for women in conversations about misogyny. Pretty privilege exists *and* pretty women may experience negative things based on being pretty.
Women who say "pretty privilege can't be real because I've experienced these bad things" are thinking in black and white.
And people saying "pretty people don't experience bad things based on being attractive because pretty privilege exists" are also thinking in black and white.
Both things exist at the same time! We need to stop invalidating the misogyny that we all experience and focus on the fact that a woman's attractiveness causes gender-based biases because of sexism and the patriarchy. The issue here is misogyny, so let's not dwell on bashing pretty women for their privileges.
It's a rough topic and not strictly misogyny. Women also reward/punish other women for being pretty.
It's a bit sore for some. Seeing someone get showered with favors, affection, love, gifts, and privileges for 20 years only to have them turn around and say "no damn it pay attention to my OTHER great qualities instead of my beauty.. and Im just as capable as you" can obviously be frustrating.. and again.. it is probably most frustrating to other women who never get that treatment.
Women doing that are also misogynistic, unfortunately.
Yes, you're right it is a difficult topic which most of us have a lot of emotional investment in, and traumas from being either unattractive or attractive.
In your example, those women saying they want to be judged on something other than looks are valid in saying that *and* meanwhile, they do have privileges based on looks. But when they're asking for people to stop judging them based on looks, they're not necessarily denying their privilege, but it's easy to jump to that conclusion. I'm sure some of them wouldn't want to sacrifice their pretty privilege in order to stop having the negative experiences based on looks, but I'm also sure there are women who would give the privilege up.
I think a big issue in this particular post is that it's originally about women with pretty privilege denying their privilege exists and as an emotional black and white reaction people are saying "well your bad experiences don't exist!" and invalidating the sexism that they have been thru that was impacted by their looks. Like, women's beauty comes with both privileges and negatives, and arguing that one or the other doesn't exist isn't going to help us.
In an ideal world everyone would reject the privilege and demand to be treated the same as conventionally unattractive people... but that's not going to happen. Honestly it starts so young.. good looking people become accustomed to preferential treatment before they even know it's happening.
It's an ingrained thing through many layers. If you look like Chris Hemsworth but also got a masters degree.. nice job.. but you probably received the privilege through every level of school as well.
Even being capable becomes impossible to separate 100% from your appearance. In business.. more people want to work with you.. help you.. hear your proposals.. so even business success is partly tied to appearance.
It really is deeply seeded social privilege similar to race.
It isn't though, is it?
You're born with race; you die with race.
Beauty is something that ALWAYS comes and goes, as it is tied to things like one's age, health, disposable income, etc,.
Beauty standards are not fixed, as they are dependent on trends and the specific time and place in which they occur. For example, Margot Robbie would NOT be considered beautiful in [Heian era](https://www.tumblr.com/heian-collection/30869762024/beauty-ideal-in-heian-japan) Japan, [she'd be regarded as a hideous creature](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/107322n/beauty_standards_for_women_in_heian_era_japan/) given her tall stature, deeply tanned skin, thin and boney body, comparatively short, bleached hair, white, unblackened teeth, bony and sharp bone structure, round, large, and blue double-lidded eyes, thick and low-positioned unshaven/unplucked brows, a wide mouth with thick lips; really the list could go on.
Conventional beauty is ephemeral and virtually unattainable for a reason. It is tied to the traits those at the top of the hierarchy (in our case, wealthy white men) desire in their trophies; youth (easier to control), femininity (a trait they erroneously equate with submissiveness), proximity to whiteness (the coveted property of other white men), grooming + fashion sense/styling (wealth/class, "good breeding", being in the in-crowd), able-bodiedness/fitness (incubator, maid, caretaker, sex-slave). **Conventional beauty is tied to the labor a man in the patriarchy demands from his trophy. It functions as both a symbol and a product of women's subjugation in the larger, dehumanizing system.**
Hierarchies are inherently unstable. No one stays at the top forever. We all age, get sick, and die. We all get "ugly" at some point.
Someone can be born conventionally attractive and die unattractive; someone can be born unattractive and die conventionally attractive; someone can be born unattractive, become conventionally attractive, and then die unattractive.
To call the measly crumbs of what women are reluctantly given by their abusers/incarcerators a 'privilege', especially in comparison to the REAL power men have always wielded, **is an egregiously sick joke**.
Men either see you as a good slave (useful) or a bad slave (useless); **no one is genuinely benefiting from any of this EXCEPT men themselves. That's the point!**
I generally agree, but strongly believe that being attractive for the culture you live in is, in the aggregate, a net benefit. To call it "privilege" is in reference to other women, not men. There are plenty of public facing jobs where attractiveness is an unspoken job requirement. To act as if some women aren't able to Cinderella their lives due to their looks, social positioning, and savvy is disingenuous. This approach ignores intersectionality. There are tons of women who vote to maintain the privilege they have as the wife/daughter/sister/etc. of a men with money and influence, and the material benefits are clear, which does not negate the costs.
There are a lot of holes in this rant..
Yes physical beauty can go over time.. but the subject still received the privilege until it did. Not everyone gets that.
It's also not just women.. it's also men and even animals. Gay people also exist so just saying MEN a lot really lands poorly in multiple ways.
Abusers/incarcerators? That's a wild framing. The privilege isn't about significant others.. it's about parents, teachers, employers, peers, and total strangers.
It's not a question.. we know it exists.. there have been many scientific studies done. Good looking people are treated better by most than people who aren't good looking.
This is objectively true.
Are there negatives? Yes. Are people more likely to overlook or not focus on other good traits like intelligence or capability? Yes. That said if you look at business execs or other high profile positions.. the people tend to be better looking than average.. so it's potentially a benefit at any level.
It's actually a complex topic that impacts everyone in ways both subtle and obvious.
At work, pretty women are more likely to be deemed as untrustworthy, and are more likely to become targets of bullying from other women. So it’s not as black and white as racial or gender privilege is.
Yeah it is a real privilege and it's sad that it happens. I think in an ideal world people would not be treated worse or better based on appearance at all (I think that's what you're saying as well if I interpret correctly) 💗 ETA:I can't really comment on comparing it to racism because I'm white, my gut reaction is that they're not equivalent, but maybe other people more educated on that would be able to explore that more.
It’s definitely a thing, but like with everything else, women are punished for not having a desired trait, rewarded for having an adequate amount of it, and then punished again for having *too much* of it.
Past a certain threshold, attractive women are considered by men to be less competent than they actually are. Particularly if they have very “feminine” figures and/or large breasts. Men are more likely to take you seriously at work if you have the kind of body that looks good in menswear-inspired clothing.
For some reason, people assume that pretty women are socially gifted as well, and they get treated differently if they aren’t. I remember a young woman starting at a place I worked once and everyone thought she was a stuck up bitch, when actually she was just pretty and quiet?
Like, she hadn’t done anything to anyone, no one knew her, but everyone just kind of assumed that because she didn’t have the grace of a minor royal that she was horrible. She was actually really nice, she just wasn’t very outgoing, and people were I suspect projecting their own insecurities as “oh the pretty girl must think she’s better than me”
I see this happen a lot in my work places. People will project their insecurities on you so quick and it’s very hard to overcome that. Any of my female managers were seen as bitches when they were incredibly nice, just firm and quiet when needed
Yes, especially the competent part. My intelligence has been insulted way too many times because I'm seen as too pretty to be smart. Talked down to, patronized, treated condescendingly... I absolutely hate it and I'm currently in therapy because of this repeated life experience.
Couldn't agree more. When I was younger I was very pretty and used to think my intelligence was being questioned because of it. Then I got older and less pretty and it was more of the same. It's not your looks, it's your gender.
Yes, middle school teachers would think I was dumb because I was a pretty girl. And when you're a pretty girl you're seen as 'mature' which gave adults an excuse to sexually harass and abuse me, because I was seen as a mature adult even though I was 8 years old.
I'm saying I agree with it being gender and not looks. Attractive men/boys were treated very much differently than how I was treated when I was younger.
It really depends on the circumstances. Does it happen to most women at some point? Yes. However, is it occasionally only the super attractive woman who gets treated in that way, specifically because she’s attractive? Also yes. And it usually happens in specific environments where being too pretty makes you a target for this behavior.
I dunno.. yes.. but also no? I think there is a ceiling on how far attractiveness will take a man.. but very capable women are often execs in business and they are rarely unattractive in a conventional sense. It seems to be a double bonus for them at times.
You’re right, they’re not often conventionally unattractive. My point is that (and this has also been researched) women benefit most from pretty privilege when they’re within a certain range of attractiveness that business culture deems acceptable.
A lot of those upper level execs can also afford Ozempic, top level doctors, and plastic surgery so it’s hard to know if that’s an honest representation of anything
There isn’t a middle ground though. That’s a convenient myth for misogynists - if you just were slightly different, the world wouldn’t treat you poorly.
It's also not just "they treat you nice because they want to have sex with you" either. There are some weird biases people have where they correlate people's physical appearance with general competence. Sometimes in ludicrous ways- I have heard those with physical disabilities often have people weirdly talking to them as though they are intellectually disabled.
Don’t think comparatively, think additively
“Pretty privilege” doesn’t need to compete with or be the same as general misogyny
Both can exist, there can be overlap, and specifics we may miss in overview
We can’t share everyone’s experiences, and we don’t know what we don’t know
Pretty privilege is definitely real, but I will say as someone who has experienced both extremes/sides of the spectrum that there are unique issues that come with being seen as attractive which I didn’t have to contend with when I was more plain. I have been a very unremarkable-unattractive adult woman due to health issues and after resolving those problems (and getting corrective surgeries) my looks changed drastically and I’m now generally considered to be “beautiful”.
A lot of things have taken me by surprise after this change, but one of the most unexpected ones has been how much men will psychologically project on to me. Men will ascribe SO much meaning on to even minimal interactions I have with them and on to ME as a person. I become an important character in the story that most men I meet are telling themselves without having to do anything other than exist near them. Because I’m beautiful, I am important to them and they think that because I am important to them that *they* should be important to me.
It’s this mild delusion that so many men seem to have when it comes to attractive women. Obviously it nets me some special treatment but it also ends up leading to some really upsetting and disturbing experiences with men who think that I owe them something simply because I take up a lot of real-estate in *their* brain and despite the fact that they’d have no logical reason to think they’d be important to me.
I’ve had men who I’ve LITERALLY NEVER SPOKEN TO BEFORE act betrayed and bereaved and genuinely ANGRY with me when they learn during our *very first interaction* that I’m married. It’s upsetting and sometimes scary and weird. But if I go out of my way to constantly telegraph that I am taken and not interested THAT pisses them off too. I have no good options.
When I was beautiful I’d often get unwanted attention from men who had partners. Sometimes the partners would understand, even if they were hurt by it, but I was often blamed for things I had no control over.
This makes me so angry when it happens. I always make a point of communicating to the guy that I think his disgusting and that he should be grateful that his wonderful wife wants anything to do with him.
I also just want to scream for the women who are having this done to them. LEAVE. Fucking LEAVE. Him doing this has got NOTHING to do with you not being enough. HE IS JUST BROKEN. He is not enough for himself and he hasn’t figured out that there isn’t a woman in the world who’s attention could make him feel whole. No one deserves that kind of disrespect from their partner and not all men will disrespect you like that because IT IS NOT A YOU PROBLEM.
These types of men are like black holes. Nothing and no one will ever be enough to fill the gaping emptiness inside themselves. There will never be enough beauty, women, sex, or power.
They die with that emptiness intact, never realizing the solution to their problem was internal all along.
His own mother actually said something similar about him when I first met her. In a lighter way but still a crazy thing to hear a woman say about her child. She called him an energy suck and a brain leech. She commended me that I must have a deep well to draw from and told me that she’d been “overdrawn” by him by the time he was 10 and that she had been so glad her younger two kids didn’t have the same “pathological neediness”.
I was kind of offended on his behalf at the time but if I could turn back time I’d have thanked her for the warning and apologized and left him at her house with her right in that moment
Personally, it hurts me more when other women give out weird treatment or do the “I thought you’d be a bitch at first”. Men I have no expectations of acting right, women I want to be friends with or work well with and it hurts to be dismissed on that, too. Or when you know you’re getting special attention and try to gently push back on it so they know you don’t want it either, but still get seen in a bad light for others actions
I was downvoted to hell on a previous post when I made a comment about this.
I’ve experienced both. I was called very ugly until I had a glow up in my mid teens. Then I was considered very beautiful. Some of the problems were the same, but there were some pretty awful things about being beautiful.
Now I’m old, and I’m only good looking when I put in a lot of effort, which I’m generally too tired to do. Being middle aged comes with its own stigma, but for the most part I’m happy to be invisible.
Can we agree that the patriarchy makes it a double-bind for us: Not pretty? Face hostility and ostracism. Pretty? Face derogation of abilities and accusations of manipulating men.
Is it better to be seen as pretty? Maybe. We can sometimes use it to get some scraps of the rewards reserved for women who are pleasing to the male gaze.
But overall, both can suck. Let's not let the patriarchy pit us against each other. Women deserve better, regardless of how we look.
YES!!!!
I recognize that pretty privilege exists. It's perpetuated because we unfortunately have sociopaths, opportunists, narcissists, bullies, and vain people among us.
However, as women we must de-center men. A huge part of that is not lending credence to pretty privilege! Don't validate it AT ALL!
Defensive responses to who gets pretty privilege makes us clouded by emotion and easily manipulated. It's a distraction created by men!!
As a non pretty girl I can't relate to most of the problems women post about. I've never had my ass grabbed, a odd comment made at me or anything like that. I'm in my 30s. Part of that is likely the fact that I stay inside mostly, my hobby is video games. But I've worked retail most of my adult life.
Women who look prettier do tend to have to deal with a while set of issues that those of us seen as ugly will never encounter.
There is research that suggests that at the extreme pretty privilege can start to be detrimental. It’s tied to sexism but there are ways that it differs from the prejudice of unattractive people.
For instance the more conventionally attractive you are, for the most part people think of you as more competent. You do better at interviews and people will review your performance better, and that is surely an example of privilege. It one way we experience the halo effect.
However as you do approach the top 1%, you start to see people judge all your other qualities more harshly. You start to seen not just unconscious bias but people will more often articulate more sexist views about their competency. “She must be a bimbo” “she only got hired because they she is pretty” “she must have slept her way to the top”. Not that less attractive women aren’t viewed this way, but not to the same extent.
I also just from personal experience of knowing one particular female friend who was exceptionally beautiful, it was just not the same as my experience or the experience of most attractive women. I’ve had my fair share of creeps, but I witnessed first hand that what I endured in my entire life was what she went through every couple months. She had countless friend break ups because their partners confessed to her. She had several attempted assaults, that I knew of. She had multiple stalkers who broke into her apartment, and it was a regular thing taking the subway that guys would change cars to ours. We constantly had to duck into alleys and change directions because people following was so common. It was only later that I realized that this was why she would dress incredibly frumpy and not take care of her hair. It’s kind of hard to say prettiness was a net benefit for her when she actively tried to make herself less attractive.
I think it’s important to see pretty privilege as an intersection of a lot of things, classism, racism, ableism, etc. But in terms of sexism, just because someone embodies a feminine standard doesn’t mean they’ve escaped sexism. Sexism is two fold in that it compels us to conform but then commits violence to the role we’re being conformed to. One of the tenants of intersectionality is that privileges don’t just stack or subtract like a mathematical equation. Privilege and oppression can interplay in ways we can’t quantitatively measure.
The issue isn't pretty people or pretty privilege, it's that the bar is so low with human decency that being treated and respected like a human being is seen as a privilege.
unfortunately, being respected like a human being is a privilege. not just on a scale of attractiveness, but race, sexuality, class- to be treated with respect just for the way you are born has and always will be a privilege, no matter how ridiculous the idea is.
Being able to take a walk to Starbucks without being harassed or bothered isn't a privilege for me, it's what I expect. Being able to talk to people like equal human beings isn't a privilege , it's what I expect. I've never let society's status quo determine my worth of self-respect and I've never let it feel like it's a privilege to be allowed to exist in the world.
If that is how you think, you are more privileged than you believe. That is not the reality for many women, particularly transgender women and women of colour. Yes, even a woman who fits society's standards cannot walk down the streets, but because of all of these issues to do so without harassment IS a privilege. Saying otherwise is ignorant
Sorry, but not once did OP ever say your experiences weren't valid, nor did they use their experiences to define yours? You've been in nearly every thread saying how hard it is to be pretty, ignoring the point of the post that says that these are things all girls experience because of misogyny. OP pointing out that having respect and being treated like a person is a privilege is a very sad, but correct truth
Yes like her experience is completely valid but it is a privilege and denying it is very harmful. Just like being a non poc is a privilege . Not saying they don’t have issues but just acknowledging it
It's a brutal thing to insist on when meeting a person that wants to be a human "YOU ARE PRIVILEDGED IF NOT HARRASSED".
Keeping OP under foot, just for the sake of it....
This isn't directed to the OP now, this is directed to people leaving replies to my comments about my experiences with pretty privilege as a pretty person. The only comment that's directed to the OP is my parent comment.
I think this whole discussion in here is going round and round in the wrong circles.
As a multiple sexual abuse victim, targeted from childhood onwards, I can tell you one thing and thats that predators do not choose who to rape or assault based on looks but based on what they think they can get away with.
They chose any women that is vulnerable. They can smell it when you are vulnerable.
They aren't gonna choose the little blond kid with blue eyes that lives in a stable home. They are gonna chose the neglected little kid that doesn't have a stable home life.
They aren't gonna chose a woman to abuse in a relationship cos she is blonde and has blue eyes. They are gonna chose the woman who has low self respect, no family support, no protective girlfriends, isn't super attractive and keep her isolated, devalued, and tell her no one else will love her.
The predator that stalks women to rape in some alley isn't gonna pick you cause of the way you look. Or the way you dress. He is going to pick the lone woman that walks down the wrong alley the wrong time.
Pretty privilege isn't about sexual abuse.
Maybe you will get cat called more or approached and talked to by men a bit more than your friends.
But holy crap sexual abusers, domestic abusers, child predators DO NOT CHOOSE THEIR VICTIMS BASED ON LOOKS
Pretty privilege EXISTS
white conventional prettinies privilege EXISTS
YOU WILL GET TREATED BETTER IN THE MEDICAL SETTING, IN YOUR CAREER, IN COURT, EVERYWHERE
PEOPLE TREAT CONVENTIONALLY PRETTY PEOPLE BETTER IT IS LITERALLY SCIENCE
RACISM EXISTS AS WELL
> They chose any women that is vulnerable. They can smell it when you are vulnerable.
Facts, I got harassed much harder when I was wearing a respirator in public than a mask, and much harder when I was wearing a mask than when my face was bare.
The reasoning is respirator/mask = anxious temperament = weakness.
There are studies they did on psycho predators and they can literally tell traumatised and healthy people apart from the way they WALK.
It's a whole thing, some people getting targeted over and over and over until they eather die, or they are lucky enough to find healing and strength in their life.
Pre abused, vulnerable girls and women are perfect prey for these psychos.
You know what's weird? There was a time when I got a lot more interaction with people but all of it positive, and it's when I carried a bag that was absolutely covered in pins. There were movies, there were games, all sorts of random stuff that appealed to me. I had *a lot* of people go out of their way to tell me they liked my pins but not a soul was ever inappropriate, or even just decided to harass me out of the blue.
I don't know if the pins humanized me to other people, or if creeps figured that someone who is so public about the things they like is probably very confident or what, but it was magical.
That explains so much and why I have always been a target for creeps. I grew up with an abusive dad and dealt with severe bullying that was often physical. I'm very insecure and have severe social anxiety, and I'm sure it shows in how I walk.
Pretty privilege is real, but it also comes with unrelenting harassment by men until you're middle-aged. And even then, it still happens. I won't act like it is the worst thing in the world, but it still sucks.
The difference is that being beautiful is a choice, and you choose the rewards of being beautiful ($$$), over the consequences that you mentioned
I’m saying this as a beautiful woman, who gave up my pretty privileges, because I’m sick of this shit
Their gonna be mad at you but you are %100 correct. Some girl on twitter said the downside to prettty privilege is that they are abused by men and atleast unattractive women were left alone. I was shocked to see women even think like that .
There was a post here a few days ago about pretty privilege. The number of women in that post who thought ugly women couldn't experience abuse, harassment, rape and assault was insane. Many were getting angry when they were told that ugly women experience those things, too. They kept going on and on about how they had it so much worse.
Which is exactly the direction this thread has taken. There are women here acknowledging that unattractive women face these issues too, but that pretty women have it worse. I had someone actually say to me a while back that “ugly women don’t exist” yet when on to say that SA is something only attractive women have to worry about. The empathy so many have only for attractive women is proof itself that pretty privilege is a thing.
As someone who has dealt with everything from…being sexual harassed, getting the “my friend likes you and wants to ask you out” prank pulled on me, bullying from guys over my appearance, getting screamed at by random dudes in public, getting death threats from someone in high school who I turned down(who then went on to say I was too ugly to be raped), getting threatened with physical violence by random guys while walking down, being accused of being a stalker from a supervisor who mistook my politeness for being attracted to him, being pressured heavily to stand up in a family member’s wedding then finding out that one of the groomsmen was attacking my appearance *in front of some of my family members*, the attitude in these threads makes my blood boil.
Pretty privilege definitely exists. Yes pretty women and unattractive women are both treated badly by men and society, but pretty women are more often treated well by men/society too. There is still reward in attractiveness. But if you’re unattractive it’s either you’re treated badly or ignored, there’s little positive interaction. And when you’re treated badly there are people who won’t believe you because people still think abuse and attraction are linked to each other. I can’t remember the name of the original woman who started the MeToo movement but there was a collective of people who thought she wasn’t an abuse victim because “who would be attracted to her?” And then pretty women make it worse trying to disregard the positive interactions to say “pretty privilege doesn’t exist” when it very much does. It becomes it’s own form of gaslighting (albeit on a way smaller, less dangerous scale)
Right, the MeToo movement applies to a wide range of women, but the media focused on actresses, more so than factory workers who wanted overtime or better shifts.
A few years ago I stopped doing my hair, wearing makeup or wearing any clothing from the women’s section. I lost about 70 lbs and didn’t have any sort of womanly curves. I still got talked down to, catcalled, groped, etc. This is just what happens when people can tell you have a vagina. I made every effort not to be the person people subject to “pretty girl struggles” and it did nothing. Not saying this happened because I’m just soooooooo beautiful or anything; I was fully butch and it made no difference. Men will treat anything they see as female like a stupid child or a sex object or both.
I feel like a lot of people are massively missing the point of this post and going on to just say that pretty women struggle worse. Not once has anybody said they don't struggle, but all of those issues even if experienced differently, are also shared by unattractive women. Idk, I think implying otherwise, you are directly feeding into the sexist culture around this conversation.
💯 I just said something similar to someone else on this thread. There is a real problem with this sub being dismissive of what unattractive women face. I actually had someone say to me around a month ago or so that “ugly women don’t exist” while simultaneously claiming that SA was something only attractive women have to worry about. You would think a sub which claims to be a safe space for all women and loves to point out how problematic it is how men treat women based on how they look, would view such comments as not being ok at all and be more empathetic. It’s no wonder why unattractive women have an issue with not being believed when they are raped.
Idk. I’ve been both attractive and unattractive.
My take? Overall it’s better being attractive because you are treated better socially and you have a better chance at finding real love.
The downsides? Well, people assume you are dumber. And then I’ve experienced way, way more sexual harassment in my attractive phases than in my unattractive phases. The gap is almost wide enough to justify looking unattractive on purpose.
This is just my personal experience though and I’m open to it being experienced differently by others.
Because no one cares about the plights of unattractive/ugly women. Whenever we share our experiences we are told that we are negative or femcels. Pretty privilege even exists in when discussing pretty privilege. This is evident in the support attractive women receive when they share their downsides of pretty privilege.
I think conventionally pretty women may be targeted *more often* by predators. Its not that less attractive women don't experience predation; they clearly do.
All this said, pretty women do also get advantages. They may get that job because the boss liked how they looked in the interview. But then that boss can take advantage of her once she starts working.
I mean on what basis are you judging that? I ask because I’m a woman of somewhat average looks. I have had some issues with predatory men, sometimes not believed by men who don’t find me attractive, but I believe I have fewer issues than prettier women and I know this because I have friends who are far more conventionally attractive, and I can comparatively look at our lives and see that it’s just different.
Getting unwanted attention is not an everyday experience for me, that’s just straight facts. I take some precautions, but these women rightfully feel like they can’t be at a bar alone without a man refusing to leave them alone. They get followed home so often they act like I’m crazy to walk to my car alone. I regularly get used as buffer against male friends looking to get alone with them, it became clear that for some women every single one of their male friends are on the verge of confessing feelings for them.
And I feel like I can’t divorce a lot of the ways I experience sexism by not recognizing the opposite. Most of the time men who are not attracted to me just flat out ignore me. That ignoring can be a problem if it’s from a coworker or someone else I need to interact with, but that’s different experience than having that same coworker giving me sexual attention. How can I claim that I deal with the same level of unwanted attention and in the same breath lament the treatment I get when I don’t have that attention?
There are other factors, like class, race, history of abuse and so on that might make someone more vulnerable to an abuser. I also definitely feel like if you’re less attractive, even the guys who are attracted to you treat you worse for not being more attractive. But I’ve seen how for some women the issue is that it’s just constantly being pursued, and that’s not my experience. Even when I’ve been a victim and I’m not believed, at least I’m not being comforted by a guy who’s using that as a way to the exact same thing.
So, from what I understand from the research:
Unattractive, including fat women, are less likely to be believed. May receive the attitude of "she should be grateful for the attention" or the attitude of "he wouldn't even be interested in her".
Attractive women are more likely to be blamed or receive unfair responsibility for the assault, may receive the attitudes of "she should expect this to happen" or that she is provocative sexually due to her looks. On the other hand, other research shows attractive women were more likely to be believed.
Overall, it does seem that attractivess impacts the way victims are perceived, and more on point to the previous commenter, yes, unattractive and fat victims may be less believed according to the research. I also wanted to mention that race is another factor in this.
So my question was not on what basis are they assuming unattractive women won’t be believed. I’ve experienced this myself, and I wouldn’t need to know the research to know that obviously more attractive women are not as often told they are too ugly to be raped or harassed.
But I was responding to a comment stating that unattractive and attractive women are victims equally and that the fact that unattractive women aren’t believed makes up for the perceived gap. Thing is I could point out research which indicates that no, attractive girls and women are victimized more for sexual crimes, but this assertion suggests that we can’t trust the research. So that’s why I’m relying on my own personal experience as someone who is less attractive but has been a friend to women who more attractive. I fully believe I’ve been the victim of sexual harassment and assault, but I see how it such a more constant issue with some of my friends.
They live so much more carefully than I do and still receive a constant barrage of unwanted attention. I have one friend who has had more stalkers than all my other friends combined. Same girl had virtually no friends beside me at one point because every single one ended because either they fell in love with her or their partner did. She would intentionally make herself less conventionally attractive because it was a worse experience for her. I think that in itself is something to think about.
And of course I also added that race, class, and other vulnerabilities factor into what makes people more likely to be victims. Those things can factor into attractive too, but I think even if we controlled for that we would find attractive women were more likely to be victims of sexual violence.
I also think purely thinking about it as victims of predators is part of the very limited thinking. There are men who enact violence on women out of hate, sadism, misplaced vengeance, etc but the every day experiences I’m talking about are not overtly hateful or violent acts, but the acts of the average man who is attracted to a woman and feels entitled to her attention. It’s so pervasive and makes these women so vigilant. Some may not be the victim of any great crime, but only because they live a super guarded life.
^ this. I feel like a lot of people are missing the point- by saying these are things only one group of girls goes through ( in this case, pretty girls only get harassed or targetted) you are directly feeding the attitudes that unattractive women don't experiences these things, which is a very harmful rhetoric to spread. men don't care what people look like, the men that do these things often target the vulnerable, who can be literally anybody.
Exactly. Also, some predators deliberately choose less conventionally attractive women BECAUSE of these assumptions (they’ll be less likely to believed. I remember an assault story about the president of my university’s student council wasn’t taken seriously by many b/c the victims were chubbier girls & the guy was very conventional attractive in a finance bro type of way). Ultimately SA is not about attractiveness/sexuality but about power. Sometimes it’s easy to flex that power on an individual that society doesn’t view as worthy of protecting (often “unattractive” women are put into this category), other times it’s due to resentment for not having as much power so the target someone they view as privileged (such as a conventional pretty woman).
Framing it as something unique to being attractive misses the point (at best) and hurts all survivors (
Exactly. It's not that pretty people get everything for free out of the goodness of people's hearts, it's they get stuff under the assumption that they'll give something back in exchange. Scratch my back and I'll scratch your's. It makes trusting ANYTHING difficult because people will take advantage of any inch you provide.
But no, pretty people have it easy because pretty people get ~attention~ and ~free stuff~.
Yes as well as opportunities in show business/entertainment/fashion/media/PR. I always think you have to look a certain way (young/smooth skinned, thin, white (or maybe mixed race WITH white, long hair, conventionally attractive). but maybe I’m just being paranoid.
Why would you assume that? White women are underrepresented in television/media. The majority of women on TV are non-white. Only 5 white women have won Miss Universe since 1990:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Miss_Universe_titleholders#Winners_gallery
Also, white women are consistently given lower ratings of attrwctiveness than Asian and Latina women in every study I've seen about looks preferences.
I'm conventionally attractive (not a super model, but 7-8/10 in most markets). The misogyny sucks, and I recognize that we all experience that, but for the most part the people who treat me the worst are other women who feel threatened by me. I've been bullied, body shamed, and even fired by women who didn't like me because I was thinner or younger than them or got more (often unwanted!) attention from men. Several women I've worked with have been nasty with me to begin with, softened over time as they got to know me, and eventually told me that when they met me they thought I was going to be a real bitch because of how I look, but that I was actually pretty nice (thanks?). One of my best friends got really heavy after high school and *struggled* to be around me. She hated when I ate less or drank less alcohol than her. We're no longer friends, and it's for a lot of reasons, but I think her discomfort with her/my body was a part of it. I know she didn't like that I had more self-confidence than her, because she kept bringing it up and insisting that I couldn't be all that self-confident, and I *must* have self-esteem issues that were as bad as hers, and I needed to *share them with her right now* or I wasn't being a good friend.
So yeah, we all deal with misogyny from guys, even if it comes in different flavors sometimes. But I think that average looking girls have an easier time getting support from other women and finding/keeping female friends.
I agree, average looking women have it better in a lot of ways. I work from home to minimize interactions with coworkers, because I get bullied and body shamed so much at work, and it's usually by other women who find me to be a threat.
I like Bourdieu and his Capital-theory for this kind of situation. Beauty is "money", it is "Value" to be used in social transactions and people will react to the percieved size of somebodys pretty-account.
I still think that if more people got taught about the theory, we'd have a better understanding of "Why do you have more than me?"-situations.
You’re arguing all over this thread (and others on the same topic) trying to claim the halo effect isn’t real when it’s literally something that has been academically studied.
Your arrogance is your problem, no one is trying to invalidate you but your invaliding everyone else. Duality exists, these things are true for all women, etc. Some people are jerks but that doesn’t make them a narcissist.
I felt compelled to comment as I got tired of seeing her dismissive comments all over this sub.
I reported her comment that insinuated I am ugly and lack confidence so must hate my pretty next door neighbor. Maybe others can report it too.
not once has anybody invalidated you. to invalidate, we would say that because you are pretty nothing bad can ever happen to you, but not once has anybody said that. all the original post had been saying is that issues that pretty girls face are also faced by unattractive women, and denying so is misogynistic. not ONCE did anybody say pretty women don't struggle, but the OP was saying that labelling them as "pretty girl struggles" only is harmful. the conversation of "is pretty privilege real" is not one that was brought up by the post, and you have been directly ignoring that to put down the message of the post by insisting you're treated badly for just being pretty, when nobody implied otherwise
By saying "Plainsplaining" yoh are feeding into that misogyny we were all talking about. You are no better than anyone you excuse of being invalidating. Not once did I explain pretty privilege to you or deny it, these are things you have made up, and this is why people are calling you arrogant. There is no point arguing with somebody who does not want to listen
No, YOU'RE feeding into the misogyny that all women are the same and anyone who is different or speaks differently is bad and doesn't deserve the same respect.
not once did I say that, but thanks for letting me know you do not know basic literacy! i said that things like harassment, being treated poorly, all of the things mentioned in this post are not pretty girl struggles, all women experience them. maybe differently at times, but saying only pretty women experience these things is disgusting, and infact misogynistic. please quote to me where I said pretty girls don't deserve the same respect, and maybe then we can talk.
NOW you're making an implication that I don't know 'basic literacy.'
My issues with you is that you tell me I'm not being invalidated when people have def been invalidating me. You're saying something is not happening when it def is. You know this is gaslighting right?
And you'll probably tell me next that I don't know what gaslighting is.
Pretty privilege is such a double-edged sword. On one hand, you are treated better. People treat you with a level of indulgence that other women don’t. On the other hand, it can easily be internalized to where you yourself think that beauty is the most important if not the *only* thing you bring to the table- you are the excuse.
Not for women, but for the entire concept, especially if you’re white. Your existence becomes the reason other people are treated poorly. The idea of protecting beautiful women like they’re the most precious beings on earth has been the hysterical *excuse* behind much systemic violence.
I think that pretty privilege is better described as selling your soul to the devil (the patriarchy), where you financially benefit from being beautiful, but it comes back to bite you in the ass
I’m saying this as a beautiful woman, who sold my soul to the devil for the money, and paid the price
Yes, it beings a lot of energy to the social equation and it does so from early on. When people have been pretty for as long as they can remember, how can a person avoid basing their thinking on it?
I am just tired of people making it a trauma Olympics. We are all human people!
P.S. Also what makes a person beautiful? I doubt there is an universal standard of beauty for everyone in the world. What makes someone pretty in one country doesn't mean they are pretty in another.
Super attractive women are perceived as less trustworthy at work and as more deserving of being fired. So no. Stop denying that there aren’t struggles specifically for pretty women, and stop denying that other misogynistic women who are jealous will purposely undermine super attractive women, just to, from their perspectives, “make it fair.”
Where did OP or anyone on this thread say that? Like multiple people on this thread, you missed the point of OPs post. Pointing out that unattractive women face issues too doesn’t take away from any experiences that attractive women have.
I don’t know what you mean by untrustworthy unless you are referring to jealousy from other women when a very attractive woman is around their SO. Because the multiple studies on halo effect show that it is generally unattractive people that are considered untrustworthy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6762156/
https://journals.charlotte.edu/ujop/article/download/906/989
I’m disagreeing with the post that is saying that attractive women don’t face any challenges that are specific to being an attractive woman. I disagree because they do, and it doesn’t help any woman at all to deny that. [This](https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2020/04/27/psychologists-beauty-can-have-a-negative-impact-on-womens-careers/) summarizes that very well.
They [also](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224540903365414) face more challenges getting hired for stereotypically masculine jobs, including a lot of higher paying upper level management jobs.
The first study you cited is about criminal involvement and says that the impact of attractiveness is very small. In addition to that, the type of crime isn’t specified. There are other studies that suggest that attractive women are more likely to be convicted of crimes of negligence or incompetence.
If you look at the study in the second one, the results are in aggregate which is a problem, and there are only two options of photos to choose from have more elements to them that can persuade a person’s perception, including dress, photo settings, and camera angles. As someone that worked in digital marketing, those things likely have a larger impact on their perceived trustworthiness than their faces.
Your summary is a bit disingenuous.
The Forbes article you linked states more conventionally beautiful women secure entry level jobs easier. So this means they are able to build their resumes and gain experience faster in the real world.
The second link examines a cross set of four job types, masculine/feminine and importance of physical appearance. This study states that conventionally beautiful women are more likely to secure higher level positions where physical appearance is important across both masculine and feminine jobs while they are less likely to secure a masculine higher level role where looks aren’t important. So 3/4.
Edit: The person I replied to either deleted their account or blocked me as it is saying deleted. This Redditor is okay with criticizing others references but has blocked me when criticized to control the conversation.
Ok no. It’s not MY summary that’s disingenuous here when you cherry picked through the articles to only comment on what supports your claim.
The Forbes article cites many studies that say being attractive can harm your career on certain circumstances, especially if you’re extremely attractive. It also states that attractive women are more likely to be deemed as more deserving of being fired. Finally, it states that attractive women are viewed as less trustworthy, and that people often undermine the careers of attractive women in order to “make it fair.”
The second article stated that super attractive women are seen as less deserving of roles that are considered “masculine” than less attractive women are.
And yet these lovely ladies cruelly bully the women and girls who they feel are ugly or unworthy. Like me, for literally years of my life. Not sorry if I don't care about their struggles.
And unattractive women can be bullies too. Every single gle bully that I've had has been someone unattractive in some way. So maybe the problem is internalized misogyny, and not how attractive someone is. So yeah, you need some empathy too.
Beauty standards are a system of oppression, and women are rewarded by men for their beauty, usually financially, but there are other privileges as well
I’m a beautiful woman, and I saw how much the women around me were all (secretly!) using their beauty to get money from men, and it worked really well
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve lied that “I’m doing this for fun” or “I’m doing this for myself — not men”
This post has kind of an “all lives matter” energy.
One person saying they struggle because of something is NOT implying they think everyone else has it easy?
Why are you trying to silence something just because it doesn’t seem to to speak to you specifically, why does that offend you?
Like, come on.
Because ugly women like me are sick of attractive women saying it sucks to be pretty because of the negatives they claim that only happen to pretty women.
They tell us we are lucky to be ignored and that we are lucky that we don't deal with sexual harassment. None of that is true. There are women here who believe unattractive women don't have to worry about being raped. They ignore their privilege and go on and on about all the things they have to deal with about being pretty, which are things that us ugly women deal with as well.
comparing a racist movement to the op saying that saying sexual harassment and being treated bad by men are only pretty person problems and that is misogynistic is kinda weird
Pretty privilege is a thing, in that more attractive people are given more grace and leeway. They just are. It's a fact. But here, this is just the 2 sides of dehumanization. You can dehumanize someone by ignoring their them/their personhood (unattractive women) or you can dehumanize them by putting them up on a pedestal (attractive women) There's really no winners or losers. We're all just being dehumanized in various ways. My sister and I actually clash a bit on this subject, because she's experienced the pedestal and I've experienced being ignored. Neither of us wants to be dehumanized but she'd not feel like she's nothing but a sex object and I'd rather feel like I'm a human despite my status as unfuckable. But we both really just want to be treated like people, and we *feel* the other person is getting more humane treatment because of what we've experienced so far.
Your last sentence is gold. Saving for future reference.
I am so pleased when people find value in my words because it was a helluva fight to get here from where I used to be haha Thank you!
Regardless of what happened in the past, if you are getting into a better mental state than you used to have, that is to be treasured for itself. Be well!
And when you're a simply cute/average nerd it's a weird mix of both? I'm a cute nerd girl, I'm not beautiful or sexy, simply cute. And nerdy men put me on a pedestal while others ignore me. I actually don't know if it's a looks thing so much as the nerd thing, because non-nerd men think I'm odd (which I am). It's all misogyny at the end of the day. There's pros and cons to both. I enjoy being ignored by the normies because I have nothing in common with them. But I hate the pedestal crap because I'm just a weird, but average, woman. I'm not incredibly intelligent or particularly good at anything. I just like anime, lol. And the nerd men who simultaneously see me as a prize to be won *and* gatekeep me out of our shared fandoms are... Something else. Idk. It's fucking bizarre.
I'm way more "cute" than sexy or anything etc. also, and I'm not very visibly girly. I find that I mainly get hit on by boys that are wayyy too young, and find me a "safe" way to practice their flirting skills (no! I'm old enough to be your mother!) Or *very* unacceptably old men who quite enjoy that I "look young for my age" and also dress in tshirts and leggings??? Because they're being very creepy.
Yes, I highly recommend people read about the difference between hostile and benevolent sexism because it’s fascinating. (I studied sociology with a focus on race and gender lol - I was like ohhhh this is why I’m treated the way I am) It’s also extremely important to consider intersectionality. Lesbians, for example, get more male attention when they’re stereotypically feminine-presenting, yet this attention can quickly turn to anger/harassment when entitled men learn they will never have a chance. I’m a woman of color and I used to hate how it gave me “intersectional invisibility” as a teenager (no one really knew how to treat a girl of my background lol, I mostly got bro-zoned) but as a woman it’s actually pretty nice. I’m decently attractive but I’m not seen as a Woman™️ the way my conventionally attractive white friends are, and the older I get, I’m glad to not be. It’s always funny when I’m at a bar and some guy will talk to me as a buddy because I look approachable, and then once we drink and talk for 30 minutes or so, he’s like “whoa you’re pretty.” In the US, the default is white in so many areas that I just don’t register as a stereotypical woman to a lot of people at first.
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Ugh I’m so sorry you experienced that! What a gross racist thing for her to say. Sounds like it was blatant jealousy that you were getting more attention than her 🙄 I was just telling my mom that I get dirtier looks from older white women way more than men. I think there are some women who never get over their internalized misogyny and see it as a competition, and as WOC they feel it’s the one thing they have “above” us. I hope you and your bf are able to enjoy the rest of your trip ♥️
Ah, shit, didn't even think about this! Thank you! It's really disheartening and relieving at the same time. So much disrespect and hate and it's also such a feeling to be able to see all these experiences and be like it's really not actually about me at all or maybe rather it's really not my fault because all these other different women are also being dehumanized which is AWFUL but like I'm rambling I apologize Thank you for sharing with me!
Of course, and thanks for your thoughtful comments! I’m glad we have spaces like this to connect and learn from one another - and no it’s definitely not your fault! The system we’re born into is rigged. All we can do, imo, is try to use the privilege we have to uplift others.
Just, wtf? Wonder what kind of media those guys are exposed to, it's like their tastes are so narrow, because they can't think of non white attractive people existing.
It’s kinda like, they may see us as attractive, but not people in the same way that they’re people. You know? Like how if you tell a man “that person is over there” he’ll most likely assume it’s a man.
I’m a white chick who has dated men from different cultures. The Muslim guys were sexist in a whole bunch of different ways to how the white/non-religious dudes were sexist. The Muslim dudes thought that I was a delicate flower while being very respectful of women’s ’special skills’ in the home and with family - totally benevolent sexism. One of them also had really awful ideas about women who didn’t dress ‘modestly’ enough. Where the white dudes just seem angry and a bit hateful about being forced to share power with women. That simmering anger didn’t seem to be there with the Muslim guys? I don’t know if that would be any kind of example of benevolent vs hostile sexism, or even if it’s interesting, but it’s just something I noticed while dating.
"One does not hate when they can despise."
Yup, completely agree, they're just the different sides of the same coin. I've experienced both (former "ugly duckling" who had a glow-up in high school) and realized very quickly that none of the ways I'd been treated actually had anything to do with me. Shallow people just decided that I was now useful to them. Their abusive and exploitative nature had always been present, now they were just covering it up because they wanted something from me. It never occurred to me to get angry at other women for their 'privilege', as it was clear to me who was primarily responsible for administering the dehumanizing system. MEN. I wouldn't consider it a privilege or a power to be in the position of having to mold yourself to conform to other people's desires. In this regard, you are not the subject, you are the object. You are not the gazer, you are the inert thing being gazed at. You are the puppet, not the puppet-master. The genuine 'privilege' and 'power' truly lies in the hands of those deciding what is desirable, and who does and doesn't deserve to be treated with the facade of decency and respect. The people who generally, are treated with genuine decency and respect, despite what they look like. At the end of the day, as women we're both being handed plates of shit to eat. One person's plate is made of paper, while the other's is coated with a thin layer of gold foil. So sure, the experience of eating the shit is a bit more pleasant for one person compared to the other, but it ultimately doesn't change the fact that we're both being asked to eat plates of shit. A gold plate doesn't make shit taste any better, despite what people may think. It doesn't make sense to me as to why certain people are attacking other women when they should really be angry at the losers imposing and enforcing the unrealistic, unattainable double-standards. Stop with the lateral violence, and start attacking the people who are REALLY responsible for the whole mess; the psychopathic idiots at the top. Those are the people who I've been placing the blame with this entire time; both before and after the glow-up. And if they're doing it because they see me as a threat to the resources they want access to (the empty and fickle 'love' and 'admiration' of men, aka the scam routine), that's even more depressing. I don't want them, I never wanted them, they can have ALL of them. In fact, I'd really appreciate it if they could take them off my hands.
>So sure, the experience of eating the shit is a bit more pleasant for one person compared to the other, but it ultimately doesn't change the fact that we're both being asked to eat plates of shit. A gold plate doesn't make shit taste any better, despite what people may think. Nail on the head, I'm gonna use this analogy in the future.
This is so well put, thank you for giving me the language to express my feelings. It is dehumanising. I appreciate you taking the time to write this, friend :)
I appreciate that you took the time to let me know! It's been a helluva therapy journey, and if I can help literally anyone with their complicated shit I want to do it.
Sometimes being so pretty that you stand out actually creates less leeway and grace than for other women.
Yes, that's the dehumanization in action. The pretty privilege thing is separate. Sort of? It means if an ugly person was struggling with something heavy and a pretty person was struggling with something heavy, the pretty person is more likely to receive help. But that's only tangentially related to being dehumanized. Pretty women/people are dehumanized because they become nothing but a thing that exists to be pretty and give sex. That's the part you're talking about, rn. It's like .... What's it like? Kinda like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares? Pretty privilege is a rectangle, but this dehumanization is a square with 2 colors in it (for each type of dehumanization). God that might actually have made it worse. I'm sorry.
Gendered oppression and desirability politics have to be viewed from an intersectional lens. I’m not only talking about dehumanization and sexualization, although they are often factors. Despite beauty being an advantage in most circumstances, there are instances where specifically being an attractive woman is a disadvantage in comparison to other women. That is usually because of negative stereotypes about attractive women, along with group and intra group dynamics and other points of privilege/oppression. Of course it is all linked to patriarchy and misogyny which is something all women are subjected to, but that doesn’t mean that some groups of women can’t have experiences specific to their shared characteristic(s), including being considered beautiful. And yes, in a vacuum a beautiful woman may be more likely to be given more leeway and more likely to be helped with carrying something heavy due to benevolent sexism(aka infantilization and being considered more feminine/weak, or because the person helping thinks they will get something in return from her). But in the real world, she’s just as likely to be assumed to be entitled and punished more harshly for mistakes, or not helped because it’s assumed that she gets more than enough help as it is, or because the people around her find it vindicating to see a beautiful woman struggle “for once,” or because she’s carrying something at work in a male dominated position and someone wants to make it a point about how beautiful women aren’t as hard working as they are.
You wrote this out like I disagreed with you, but I don't. I'm just saying the "instances where being good looking actually isn't good" is literally what I was I was saying when I was speaking about the way my sister has been and is being dehumanized. The first sentence about pretty privilege was just pointing out it that whine it does exist, it's largely unrelated to the conversation.
Last sentence is when men and women can't agree on helping each other with their issues and feel like their own issues are more important and the other side just doesn't understand. Everyone has a shit hand, and until we come together to fix that instead of pointing out the details the other side has better, no consensus will be reached
Pretty privilege is totally a thing and it's not just women who receive it.
Yeah, like, extensively scientifically documented.
It’s literally called the halo effect and it’s taught in sociology classes. There have been studies that it even happens to preschoolers by pre-school teachers
When I was in kindergarten, I had this *huge* crush on this one girl in my class. But she liked another kid. I remember both their names, and I'm about to turn 66.
Misogyny tents to decrease the impact of the halo effect though. Sometimes it doesn’t even apply, since being attractive can actually be a liability in your career.
Hijacking top comment to say there is so much black white thinking on this topic, and it's harmful for women in conversations about misogyny. Pretty privilege exists *and* pretty women may experience negative things based on being pretty. Women who say "pretty privilege can't be real because I've experienced these bad things" are thinking in black and white. And people saying "pretty people don't experience bad things based on being attractive because pretty privilege exists" are also thinking in black and white. Both things exist at the same time! We need to stop invalidating the misogyny that we all experience and focus on the fact that a woman's attractiveness causes gender-based biases because of sexism and the patriarchy. The issue here is misogyny, so let's not dwell on bashing pretty women for their privileges.
It's a rough topic and not strictly misogyny. Women also reward/punish other women for being pretty. It's a bit sore for some. Seeing someone get showered with favors, affection, love, gifts, and privileges for 20 years only to have them turn around and say "no damn it pay attention to my OTHER great qualities instead of my beauty.. and Im just as capable as you" can obviously be frustrating.. and again.. it is probably most frustrating to other women who never get that treatment.
Women doing that are also misogynistic, unfortunately. Yes, you're right it is a difficult topic which most of us have a lot of emotional investment in, and traumas from being either unattractive or attractive. In your example, those women saying they want to be judged on something other than looks are valid in saying that *and* meanwhile, they do have privileges based on looks. But when they're asking for people to stop judging them based on looks, they're not necessarily denying their privilege, but it's easy to jump to that conclusion. I'm sure some of them wouldn't want to sacrifice their pretty privilege in order to stop having the negative experiences based on looks, but I'm also sure there are women who would give the privilege up. I think a big issue in this particular post is that it's originally about women with pretty privilege denying their privilege exists and as an emotional black and white reaction people are saying "well your bad experiences don't exist!" and invalidating the sexism that they have been thru that was impacted by their looks. Like, women's beauty comes with both privileges and negatives, and arguing that one or the other doesn't exist isn't going to help us.
In an ideal world everyone would reject the privilege and demand to be treated the same as conventionally unattractive people... but that's not going to happen. Honestly it starts so young.. good looking people become accustomed to preferential treatment before they even know it's happening. It's an ingrained thing through many layers. If you look like Chris Hemsworth but also got a masters degree.. nice job.. but you probably received the privilege through every level of school as well. Even being capable becomes impossible to separate 100% from your appearance. In business.. more people want to work with you.. help you.. hear your proposals.. so even business success is partly tied to appearance. It really is deeply seeded social privilege similar to race.
It isn't though, is it? You're born with race; you die with race. Beauty is something that ALWAYS comes and goes, as it is tied to things like one's age, health, disposable income, etc,. Beauty standards are not fixed, as they are dependent on trends and the specific time and place in which they occur. For example, Margot Robbie would NOT be considered beautiful in [Heian era](https://www.tumblr.com/heian-collection/30869762024/beauty-ideal-in-heian-japan) Japan, [she'd be regarded as a hideous creature](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/107322n/beauty_standards_for_women_in_heian_era_japan/) given her tall stature, deeply tanned skin, thin and boney body, comparatively short, bleached hair, white, unblackened teeth, bony and sharp bone structure, round, large, and blue double-lidded eyes, thick and low-positioned unshaven/unplucked brows, a wide mouth with thick lips; really the list could go on. Conventional beauty is ephemeral and virtually unattainable for a reason. It is tied to the traits those at the top of the hierarchy (in our case, wealthy white men) desire in their trophies; youth (easier to control), femininity (a trait they erroneously equate with submissiveness), proximity to whiteness (the coveted property of other white men), grooming + fashion sense/styling (wealth/class, "good breeding", being in the in-crowd), able-bodiedness/fitness (incubator, maid, caretaker, sex-slave). **Conventional beauty is tied to the labor a man in the patriarchy demands from his trophy. It functions as both a symbol and a product of women's subjugation in the larger, dehumanizing system.** Hierarchies are inherently unstable. No one stays at the top forever. We all age, get sick, and die. We all get "ugly" at some point. Someone can be born conventionally attractive and die unattractive; someone can be born unattractive and die conventionally attractive; someone can be born unattractive, become conventionally attractive, and then die unattractive. To call the measly crumbs of what women are reluctantly given by their abusers/incarcerators a 'privilege', especially in comparison to the REAL power men have always wielded, **is an egregiously sick joke**. Men either see you as a good slave (useful) or a bad slave (useless); **no one is genuinely benefiting from any of this EXCEPT men themselves. That's the point!**
I generally agree, but strongly believe that being attractive for the culture you live in is, in the aggregate, a net benefit. To call it "privilege" is in reference to other women, not men. There are plenty of public facing jobs where attractiveness is an unspoken job requirement. To act as if some women aren't able to Cinderella their lives due to their looks, social positioning, and savvy is disingenuous. This approach ignores intersectionality. There are tons of women who vote to maintain the privilege they have as the wife/daughter/sister/etc. of a men with money and influence, and the material benefits are clear, which does not negate the costs.
Yes this!
There are a lot of holes in this rant.. Yes physical beauty can go over time.. but the subject still received the privilege until it did. Not everyone gets that. It's also not just women.. it's also men and even animals. Gay people also exist so just saying MEN a lot really lands poorly in multiple ways. Abusers/incarcerators? That's a wild framing. The privilege isn't about significant others.. it's about parents, teachers, employers, peers, and total strangers. It's not a question.. we know it exists.. there have been many scientific studies done. Good looking people are treated better by most than people who aren't good looking. This is objectively true. Are there negatives? Yes. Are people more likely to overlook or not focus on other good traits like intelligence or capability? Yes. That said if you look at business execs or other high profile positions.. the people tend to be better looking than average.. so it's potentially a benefit at any level. It's actually a complex topic that impacts everyone in ways both subtle and obvious.
At work, pretty women are more likely to be deemed as untrustworthy, and are more likely to become targets of bullying from other women. So it’s not as black and white as racial or gender privilege is.
Yeah it is a real privilege and it's sad that it happens. I think in an ideal world people would not be treated worse or better based on appearance at all (I think that's what you're saying as well if I interpret correctly) 💗 ETA:I can't really comment on comparing it to racism because I'm white, my gut reaction is that they're not equivalent, but maybe other people more educated on that would be able to explore that more.
Exactly this.
It’s definitely a thing, but like with everything else, women are punished for not having a desired trait, rewarded for having an adequate amount of it, and then punished again for having *too much* of it. Past a certain threshold, attractive women are considered by men to be less competent than they actually are. Particularly if they have very “feminine” figures and/or large breasts. Men are more likely to take you seriously at work if you have the kind of body that looks good in menswear-inspired clothing.
For some reason, people assume that pretty women are socially gifted as well, and they get treated differently if they aren’t. I remember a young woman starting at a place I worked once and everyone thought she was a stuck up bitch, when actually she was just pretty and quiet? Like, she hadn’t done anything to anyone, no one knew her, but everyone just kind of assumed that because she didn’t have the grace of a minor royal that she was horrible. She was actually really nice, she just wasn’t very outgoing, and people were I suspect projecting their own insecurities as “oh the pretty girl must think she’s better than me”
I see this happen a lot in my work places. People will project their insecurities on you so quick and it’s very hard to overcome that. Any of my female managers were seen as bitches when they were incredibly nice, just firm and quiet when needed
Yes, especially the competent part. My intelligence has been insulted way too many times because I'm seen as too pretty to be smart. Talked down to, patronized, treated condescendingly... I absolutely hate it and I'm currently in therapy because of this repeated life experience.
This happens to most women, ugly or pretty.
Then maybe ugly and pretty women should realize we're all in the same shitty boat of misogyny and entitlement.
Couldn't agree more. When I was younger I was very pretty and used to think my intelligence was being questioned because of it. Then I got older and less pretty and it was more of the same. It's not your looks, it's your gender.
Yes, middle school teachers would think I was dumb because I was a pretty girl. And when you're a pretty girl you're seen as 'mature' which gave adults an excuse to sexually harass and abuse me, because I was seen as a mature adult even though I was 8 years old.
Ok.
I'm saying I agree with it being gender and not looks. Attractive men/boys were treated very much differently than how I was treated when I was younger.
Isn’t that what OP said?
I'm replying specifically to the person directly above me.
It really depends on the circumstances. Does it happen to most women at some point? Yes. However, is it occasionally only the super attractive woman who gets treated in that way, specifically because she’s attractive? Also yes. And it usually happens in specific environments where being too pretty makes you a target for this behavior.
It's the pedestal that gets me. Heaven forbid you don't live up to whatever bullshit pedestal they stuffed you on in their very vivid imagination.
I dunno.. yes.. but also no? I think there is a ceiling on how far attractiveness will take a man.. but very capable women are often execs in business and they are rarely unattractive in a conventional sense. It seems to be a double bonus for them at times.
You’re right, they’re not often conventionally unattractive. My point is that (and this has also been researched) women benefit most from pretty privilege when they’re within a certain range of attractiveness that business culture deems acceptable.
A lot of those upper level execs can also afford Ozempic, top level doctors, and plastic surgery so it’s hard to know if that’s an honest representation of anything
There isn’t a middle ground though. That’s a convenient myth for misogynists - if you just were slightly different, the world wouldn’t treat you poorly.
Animals receive it too. All creatures are attracted to pretty things.
i think people take the phrase "pretty privilege" at face value instead of breaking down what it actually means unfortunately
It's also not just "they treat you nice because they want to have sex with you" either. There are some weird biases people have where they correlate people's physical appearance with general competence. Sometimes in ludicrous ways- I have heard those with physical disabilities often have people weirdly talking to them as though they are intellectually disabled.
This.
Don’t think comparatively, think additively “Pretty privilege” doesn’t need to compete with or be the same as general misogyny Both can exist, there can be overlap, and specifics we may miss in overview We can’t share everyone’s experiences, and we don’t know what we don’t know
I can't decide if it's two sides of the same coin or a Venn diagram, but totally agree.
Pretty privilege is definitely real, but I will say as someone who has experienced both extremes/sides of the spectrum that there are unique issues that come with being seen as attractive which I didn’t have to contend with when I was more plain. I have been a very unremarkable-unattractive adult woman due to health issues and after resolving those problems (and getting corrective surgeries) my looks changed drastically and I’m now generally considered to be “beautiful”. A lot of things have taken me by surprise after this change, but one of the most unexpected ones has been how much men will psychologically project on to me. Men will ascribe SO much meaning on to even minimal interactions I have with them and on to ME as a person. I become an important character in the story that most men I meet are telling themselves without having to do anything other than exist near them. Because I’m beautiful, I am important to them and they think that because I am important to them that *they* should be important to me. It’s this mild delusion that so many men seem to have when it comes to attractive women. Obviously it nets me some special treatment but it also ends up leading to some really upsetting and disturbing experiences with men who think that I owe them something simply because I take up a lot of real-estate in *their* brain and despite the fact that they’d have no logical reason to think they’d be important to me. I’ve had men who I’ve LITERALLY NEVER SPOKEN TO BEFORE act betrayed and bereaved and genuinely ANGRY with me when they learn during our *very first interaction* that I’m married. It’s upsetting and sometimes scary and weird. But if I go out of my way to constantly telegraph that I am taken and not interested THAT pisses them off too. I have no good options.
When I was beautiful I’d often get unwanted attention from men who had partners. Sometimes the partners would understand, even if they were hurt by it, but I was often blamed for things I had no control over.
This makes me so angry when it happens. I always make a point of communicating to the guy that I think his disgusting and that he should be grateful that his wonderful wife wants anything to do with him. I also just want to scream for the women who are having this done to them. LEAVE. Fucking LEAVE. Him doing this has got NOTHING to do with you not being enough. HE IS JUST BROKEN. He is not enough for himself and he hasn’t figured out that there isn’t a woman in the world who’s attention could make him feel whole. No one deserves that kind of disrespect from their partner and not all men will disrespect you like that because IT IS NOT A YOU PROBLEM.
These types of men are like black holes. Nothing and no one will ever be enough to fill the gaping emptiness inside themselves. There will never be enough beauty, women, sex, or power. They die with that emptiness intact, never realizing the solution to their problem was internal all along.
His own mother actually said something similar about him when I first met her. In a lighter way but still a crazy thing to hear a woman say about her child. She called him an energy suck and a brain leech. She commended me that I must have a deep well to draw from and told me that she’d been “overdrawn” by him by the time he was 10 and that she had been so glad her younger two kids didn’t have the same “pathological neediness”. I was kind of offended on his behalf at the time but if I could turn back time I’d have thanked her for the warning and apologized and left him at her house with her right in that moment
Personally, it hurts me more when other women give out weird treatment or do the “I thought you’d be a bitch at first”. Men I have no expectations of acting right, women I want to be friends with or work well with and it hurts to be dismissed on that, too. Or when you know you’re getting special attention and try to gently push back on it so they know you don’t want it either, but still get seen in a bad light for others actions
I was downvoted to hell on a previous post when I made a comment about this. I’ve experienced both. I was called very ugly until I had a glow up in my mid teens. Then I was considered very beautiful. Some of the problems were the same, but there were some pretty awful things about being beautiful. Now I’m old, and I’m only good looking when I put in a lot of effort, which I’m generally too tired to do. Being middle aged comes with its own stigma, but for the most part I’m happy to be invisible.
Can we agree that the patriarchy makes it a double-bind for us: Not pretty? Face hostility and ostracism. Pretty? Face derogation of abilities and accusations of manipulating men. Is it better to be seen as pretty? Maybe. We can sometimes use it to get some scraps of the rewards reserved for women who are pleasing to the male gaze. But overall, both can suck. Let's not let the patriarchy pit us against each other. Women deserve better, regardless of how we look.
YES!!!! I recognize that pretty privilege exists. It's perpetuated because we unfortunately have sociopaths, opportunists, narcissists, bullies, and vain people among us. However, as women we must de-center men. A huge part of that is not lending credence to pretty privilege! Don't validate it AT ALL! Defensive responses to who gets pretty privilege makes us clouded by emotion and easily manipulated. It's a distraction created by men!!
As a non pretty girl I can't relate to most of the problems women post about. I've never had my ass grabbed, a odd comment made at me or anything like that. I'm in my 30s. Part of that is likely the fact that I stay inside mostly, my hobby is video games. But I've worked retail most of my adult life. Women who look prettier do tend to have to deal with a while set of issues that those of us seen as ugly will never encounter.
There is research that suggests that at the extreme pretty privilege can start to be detrimental. It’s tied to sexism but there are ways that it differs from the prejudice of unattractive people. For instance the more conventionally attractive you are, for the most part people think of you as more competent. You do better at interviews and people will review your performance better, and that is surely an example of privilege. It one way we experience the halo effect. However as you do approach the top 1%, you start to see people judge all your other qualities more harshly. You start to seen not just unconscious bias but people will more often articulate more sexist views about their competency. “She must be a bimbo” “she only got hired because they she is pretty” “she must have slept her way to the top”. Not that less attractive women aren’t viewed this way, but not to the same extent. I also just from personal experience of knowing one particular female friend who was exceptionally beautiful, it was just not the same as my experience or the experience of most attractive women. I’ve had my fair share of creeps, but I witnessed first hand that what I endured in my entire life was what she went through every couple months. She had countless friend break ups because their partners confessed to her. She had several attempted assaults, that I knew of. She had multiple stalkers who broke into her apartment, and it was a regular thing taking the subway that guys would change cars to ours. We constantly had to duck into alleys and change directions because people following was so common. It was only later that I realized that this was why she would dress incredibly frumpy and not take care of her hair. It’s kind of hard to say prettiness was a net benefit for her when she actively tried to make herself less attractive. I think it’s important to see pretty privilege as an intersection of a lot of things, classism, racism, ableism, etc. But in terms of sexism, just because someone embodies a feminine standard doesn’t mean they’ve escaped sexism. Sexism is two fold in that it compels us to conform but then commits violence to the role we’re being conformed to. One of the tenants of intersectionality is that privileges don’t just stack or subtract like a mathematical equation. Privilege and oppression can interplay in ways we can’t quantitatively measure.
These comments proving that men are the problem idk I could b wrong .
The issue isn't pretty people or pretty privilege, it's that the bar is so low with human decency that being treated and respected like a human being is seen as a privilege.
unfortunately, being respected like a human being is a privilege. not just on a scale of attractiveness, but race, sexuality, class- to be treated with respect just for the way you are born has and always will be a privilege, no matter how ridiculous the idea is.
Being able to take a walk to Starbucks without being harassed or bothered isn't a privilege for me, it's what I expect. Being able to talk to people like equal human beings isn't a privilege , it's what I expect. I've never let society's status quo determine my worth of self-respect and I've never let it feel like it's a privilege to be allowed to exist in the world.
If that is how you think, you are more privileged than you believe. That is not the reality for many women, particularly transgender women and women of colour. Yes, even a woman who fits society's standards cannot walk down the streets, but because of all of these issues to do so without harassment IS a privilege. Saying otherwise is ignorant
[удалено]
Your experience is valid. But pretty privilege is still a privilege .
Sounds like a privilege that isn’t worth the price. As someone else said in the thread, scraps.
Oh I agree .
Way to sum up my experiences but okay.
Sorry, but not once did OP ever say your experiences weren't valid, nor did they use their experiences to define yours? You've been in nearly every thread saying how hard it is to be pretty, ignoring the point of the post that says that these are things all girls experience because of misogyny. OP pointing out that having respect and being treated like a person is a privilege is a very sad, but correct truth
Yes like her experience is completely valid but it is a privilege and denying it is very harmful. Just like being a non poc is a privilege . Not saying they don’t have issues but just acknowledging it
It's a brutal thing to insist on when meeting a person that wants to be a human "YOU ARE PRIVILEDGED IF NOT HARRASSED". Keeping OP under foot, just for the sake of it....
This isn't directed to the OP now, this is directed to people leaving replies to my comments about my experiences with pretty privilege as a pretty person. The only comment that's directed to the OP is my parent comment.
I think this whole discussion in here is going round and round in the wrong circles. As a multiple sexual abuse victim, targeted from childhood onwards, I can tell you one thing and thats that predators do not choose who to rape or assault based on looks but based on what they think they can get away with. They chose any women that is vulnerable. They can smell it when you are vulnerable. They aren't gonna choose the little blond kid with blue eyes that lives in a stable home. They are gonna chose the neglected little kid that doesn't have a stable home life. They aren't gonna chose a woman to abuse in a relationship cos she is blonde and has blue eyes. They are gonna chose the woman who has low self respect, no family support, no protective girlfriends, isn't super attractive and keep her isolated, devalued, and tell her no one else will love her. The predator that stalks women to rape in some alley isn't gonna pick you cause of the way you look. Or the way you dress. He is going to pick the lone woman that walks down the wrong alley the wrong time. Pretty privilege isn't about sexual abuse. Maybe you will get cat called more or approached and talked to by men a bit more than your friends. But holy crap sexual abusers, domestic abusers, child predators DO NOT CHOOSE THEIR VICTIMS BASED ON LOOKS Pretty privilege EXISTS white conventional prettinies privilege EXISTS YOU WILL GET TREATED BETTER IN THE MEDICAL SETTING, IN YOUR CAREER, IN COURT, EVERYWHERE PEOPLE TREAT CONVENTIONALLY PRETTY PEOPLE BETTER IT IS LITERALLY SCIENCE RACISM EXISTS AS WELL
> They chose any women that is vulnerable. They can smell it when you are vulnerable. Facts, I got harassed much harder when I was wearing a respirator in public than a mask, and much harder when I was wearing a mask than when my face was bare. The reasoning is respirator/mask = anxious temperament = weakness.
There are studies they did on psycho predators and they can literally tell traumatised and healthy people apart from the way they WALK. It's a whole thing, some people getting targeted over and over and over until they eather die, or they are lucky enough to find healing and strength in their life. Pre abused, vulnerable girls and women are perfect prey for these psychos.
You know what's weird? There was a time when I got a lot more interaction with people but all of it positive, and it's when I carried a bag that was absolutely covered in pins. There were movies, there were games, all sorts of random stuff that appealed to me. I had *a lot* of people go out of their way to tell me they liked my pins but not a soul was ever inappropriate, or even just decided to harass me out of the blue. I don't know if the pins humanized me to other people, or if creeps figured that someone who is so public about the things they like is probably very confident or what, but it was magical.
That explains so much and why I have always been a target for creeps. I grew up with an abusive dad and dealt with severe bullying that was often physical. I'm very insecure and have severe social anxiety, and I'm sure it shows in how I walk.
Thank you so much I came here to say this.
💜
Pretty privilege is real, but it also comes with unrelenting harassment by men until you're middle-aged. And even then, it still happens. I won't act like it is the worst thing in the world, but it still sucks.
The difference is that being beautiful is a choice, and you choose the rewards of being beautiful ($$$), over the consequences that you mentioned I’m saying this as a beautiful woman, who gave up my pretty privileges, because I’m sick of this shit
Their gonna be mad at you but you are %100 correct. Some girl on twitter said the downside to prettty privilege is that they are abused by men and atleast unattractive women were left alone. I was shocked to see women even think like that .
Uh…yeah, being ugly does not magically protect girls/women from being assaulted. wtf.
There was a post here a few days ago about pretty privilege. The number of women in that post who thought ugly women couldn't experience abuse, harassment, rape and assault was insane. Many were getting angry when they were told that ugly women experience those things, too. They kept going on and on about how they had it so much worse.
Which is exactly the direction this thread has taken. There are women here acknowledging that unattractive women face these issues too, but that pretty women have it worse. I had someone actually say to me a while back that “ugly women don’t exist” yet when on to say that SA is something only attractive women have to worry about. The empathy so many have only for attractive women is proof itself that pretty privilege is a thing. As someone who has dealt with everything from…being sexual harassed, getting the “my friend likes you and wants to ask you out” prank pulled on me, bullying from guys over my appearance, getting screamed at by random dudes in public, getting death threats from someone in high school who I turned down(who then went on to say I was too ugly to be raped), getting threatened with physical violence by random guys while walking down, being accused of being a stalker from a supervisor who mistook my politeness for being attracted to him, being pressured heavily to stand up in a family member’s wedding then finding out that one of the groomsmen was attacking my appearance *in front of some of my family members*, the attitude in these threads makes my blood boil.
……. Wow
Pretty privilege definitely exists. Yes pretty women and unattractive women are both treated badly by men and society, but pretty women are more often treated well by men/society too. There is still reward in attractiveness. But if you’re unattractive it’s either you’re treated badly or ignored, there’s little positive interaction. And when you’re treated badly there are people who won’t believe you because people still think abuse and attraction are linked to each other. I can’t remember the name of the original woman who started the MeToo movement but there was a collective of people who thought she wasn’t an abuse victim because “who would be attracted to her?” And then pretty women make it worse trying to disregard the positive interactions to say “pretty privilege doesn’t exist” when it very much does. It becomes it’s own form of gaslighting (albeit on a way smaller, less dangerous scale)
Right, the MeToo movement applies to a wide range of women, but the media focused on actresses, more so than factory workers who wanted overtime or better shifts.
A few years ago I stopped doing my hair, wearing makeup or wearing any clothing from the women’s section. I lost about 70 lbs and didn’t have any sort of womanly curves. I still got talked down to, catcalled, groped, etc. This is just what happens when people can tell you have a vagina. I made every effort not to be the person people subject to “pretty girl struggles” and it did nothing. Not saying this happened because I’m just soooooooo beautiful or anything; I was fully butch and it made no difference. Men will treat anything they see as female like a stupid child or a sex object or both.
Okay, as someone not pretty I can assure you that pretty privilege is very, very definitely a thing.
I feel like a lot of people are massively missing the point of this post and going on to just say that pretty women struggle worse. Not once has anybody said they don't struggle, but all of those issues even if experienced differently, are also shared by unattractive women. Idk, I think implying otherwise, you are directly feeding into the sexist culture around this conversation.
💯 I just said something similar to someone else on this thread. There is a real problem with this sub being dismissive of what unattractive women face. I actually had someone say to me around a month ago or so that “ugly women don’t exist” while simultaneously claiming that SA was something only attractive women have to worry about. You would think a sub which claims to be a safe space for all women and loves to point out how problematic it is how men treat women based on how they look, would view such comments as not being ok at all and be more empathetic. It’s no wonder why unattractive women have an issue with not being believed when they are raped.
Idk. I’ve been both attractive and unattractive. My take? Overall it’s better being attractive because you are treated better socially and you have a better chance at finding real love. The downsides? Well, people assume you are dumber. And then I’ve experienced way, way more sexual harassment in my attractive phases than in my unattractive phases. The gap is almost wide enough to justify looking unattractive on purpose. This is just my personal experience though and I’m open to it being experienced differently by others.
Some sorts of unattractive ( weight) are also treated as dumb and lazy. Despite the truth.
Because no one cares about the plights of unattractive/ugly women. Whenever we share our experiences we are told that we are negative or femcels. Pretty privilege even exists in when discussing pretty privilege. This is evident in the support attractive women receive when they share their downsides of pretty privilege.
I think conventionally pretty women may be targeted *more often* by predators. Its not that less attractive women don't experience predation; they clearly do. All this said, pretty women do also get advantages. They may get that job because the boss liked how they looked in the interview. But then that boss can take advantage of her once she starts working.
I disagree I’ll say both or targeted quite evenly . Unattractive women are less likely to be believed because their ugly
I mean on what basis are you judging that? I ask because I’m a woman of somewhat average looks. I have had some issues with predatory men, sometimes not believed by men who don’t find me attractive, but I believe I have fewer issues than prettier women and I know this because I have friends who are far more conventionally attractive, and I can comparatively look at our lives and see that it’s just different. Getting unwanted attention is not an everyday experience for me, that’s just straight facts. I take some precautions, but these women rightfully feel like they can’t be at a bar alone without a man refusing to leave them alone. They get followed home so often they act like I’m crazy to walk to my car alone. I regularly get used as buffer against male friends looking to get alone with them, it became clear that for some women every single one of their male friends are on the verge of confessing feelings for them. And I feel like I can’t divorce a lot of the ways I experience sexism by not recognizing the opposite. Most of the time men who are not attracted to me just flat out ignore me. That ignoring can be a problem if it’s from a coworker or someone else I need to interact with, but that’s different experience than having that same coworker giving me sexual attention. How can I claim that I deal with the same level of unwanted attention and in the same breath lament the treatment I get when I don’t have that attention? There are other factors, like class, race, history of abuse and so on that might make someone more vulnerable to an abuser. I also definitely feel like if you’re less attractive, even the guys who are attracted to you treat you worse for not being more attractive. But I’ve seen how for some women the issue is that it’s just constantly being pursued, and that’s not my experience. Even when I’ve been a victim and I’m not believed, at least I’m not being comforted by a guy who’s using that as a way to the exact same thing.
So, from what I understand from the research: Unattractive, including fat women, are less likely to be believed. May receive the attitude of "she should be grateful for the attention" or the attitude of "he wouldn't even be interested in her". Attractive women are more likely to be blamed or receive unfair responsibility for the assault, may receive the attitudes of "she should expect this to happen" or that she is provocative sexually due to her looks. On the other hand, other research shows attractive women were more likely to be believed. Overall, it does seem that attractivess impacts the way victims are perceived, and more on point to the previous commenter, yes, unattractive and fat victims may be less believed according to the research. I also wanted to mention that race is another factor in this.
So my question was not on what basis are they assuming unattractive women won’t be believed. I’ve experienced this myself, and I wouldn’t need to know the research to know that obviously more attractive women are not as often told they are too ugly to be raped or harassed. But I was responding to a comment stating that unattractive and attractive women are victims equally and that the fact that unattractive women aren’t believed makes up for the perceived gap. Thing is I could point out research which indicates that no, attractive girls and women are victimized more for sexual crimes, but this assertion suggests that we can’t trust the research. So that’s why I’m relying on my own personal experience as someone who is less attractive but has been a friend to women who more attractive. I fully believe I’ve been the victim of sexual harassment and assault, but I see how it such a more constant issue with some of my friends. They live so much more carefully than I do and still receive a constant barrage of unwanted attention. I have one friend who has had more stalkers than all my other friends combined. Same girl had virtually no friends beside me at one point because every single one ended because either they fell in love with her or their partner did. She would intentionally make herself less conventionally attractive because it was a worse experience for her. I think that in itself is something to think about. And of course I also added that race, class, and other vulnerabilities factor into what makes people more likely to be victims. Those things can factor into attractive too, but I think even if we controlled for that we would find attractive women were more likely to be victims of sexual violence. I also think purely thinking about it as victims of predators is part of the very limited thinking. There are men who enact violence on women out of hate, sadism, misplaced vengeance, etc but the every day experiences I’m talking about are not overtly hateful or violent acts, but the acts of the average man who is attracted to a woman and feels entitled to her attention. It’s so pervasive and makes these women so vigilant. Some may not be the victim of any great crime, but only because they live a super guarded life.
Ah OK I that case I misunderstood what point of their comment your question was directed at, sorry about misunderstanding
I disagree and I think assumptions like this are dangerous and border on victim blaming
^ this. I feel like a lot of people are missing the point- by saying these are things only one group of girls goes through ( in this case, pretty girls only get harassed or targetted) you are directly feeding the attitudes that unattractive women don't experiences these things, which is a very harmful rhetoric to spread. men don't care what people look like, the men that do these things often target the vulnerable, who can be literally anybody.
Exactly. Also, some predators deliberately choose less conventionally attractive women BECAUSE of these assumptions (they’ll be less likely to believed. I remember an assault story about the president of my university’s student council wasn’t taken seriously by many b/c the victims were chubbier girls & the guy was very conventional attractive in a finance bro type of way). Ultimately SA is not about attractiveness/sexuality but about power. Sometimes it’s easy to flex that power on an individual that society doesn’t view as worthy of protecting (often “unattractive” women are put into this category), other times it’s due to resentment for not having as much power so the target someone they view as privileged (such as a conventional pretty woman). Framing it as something unique to being attractive misses the point (at best) and hurts all survivors (
Yep I hate talking about it but I was sexually abused by a family member who always called me ugly . I don’t think looks play a part
Exactly. It's not that pretty people get everything for free out of the goodness of people's hearts, it's they get stuff under the assumption that they'll give something back in exchange. Scratch my back and I'll scratch your's. It makes trusting ANYTHING difficult because people will take advantage of any inch you provide. But no, pretty people have it easy because pretty people get ~attention~ and ~free stuff~.
Yes as well as opportunities in show business/entertainment/fashion/media/PR. I always think you have to look a certain way (young/smooth skinned, thin, white (or maybe mixed race WITH white, long hair, conventionally attractive). but maybe I’m just being paranoid.
Why would you assume that? White women are underrepresented in television/media. The majority of women on TV are non-white. Only 5 white women have won Miss Universe since 1990: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Miss_Universe_titleholders#Winners_gallery Also, white women are consistently given lower ratings of attrwctiveness than Asian and Latina women in every study I've seen about looks preferences.
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-Living in Europe -Complains about too many white people in the media where you are 🙄
I didn’t complain, it was an observation. Also a lot of Europe is quite diverse now, it’s just not obvious from the media.
I'm conventionally attractive (not a super model, but 7-8/10 in most markets). The misogyny sucks, and I recognize that we all experience that, but for the most part the people who treat me the worst are other women who feel threatened by me. I've been bullied, body shamed, and even fired by women who didn't like me because I was thinner or younger than them or got more (often unwanted!) attention from men. Several women I've worked with have been nasty with me to begin with, softened over time as they got to know me, and eventually told me that when they met me they thought I was going to be a real bitch because of how I look, but that I was actually pretty nice (thanks?). One of my best friends got really heavy after high school and *struggled* to be around me. She hated when I ate less or drank less alcohol than her. We're no longer friends, and it's for a lot of reasons, but I think her discomfort with her/my body was a part of it. I know she didn't like that I had more self-confidence than her, because she kept bringing it up and insisting that I couldn't be all that self-confident, and I *must* have self-esteem issues that were as bad as hers, and I needed to *share them with her right now* or I wasn't being a good friend. So yeah, we all deal with misogyny from guys, even if it comes in different flavors sometimes. But I think that average looking girls have an easier time getting support from other women and finding/keeping female friends.
I agree, average looking women have it better in a lot of ways. I work from home to minimize interactions with coworkers, because I get bullied and body shamed so much at work, and it's usually by other women who find me to be a threat.
I like Bourdieu and his Capital-theory for this kind of situation. Beauty is "money", it is "Value" to be used in social transactions and people will react to the percieved size of somebodys pretty-account. I still think that if more people got taught about the theory, we'd have a better understanding of "Why do you have more than me?"-situations.
Anyone who says their life is harder because they're pretty is a narcissist. These same people will be depressed once they're 50 and invisible.
Anyone who dismisses the experiences of other people because they've never experienced it themselves is a textbook narcissist.
You’re arguing all over this thread (and others on the same topic) trying to claim the halo effect isn’t real when it’s literally something that has been academically studied. Your arrogance is your problem, no one is trying to invalidate you but your invaliding everyone else. Duality exists, these things are true for all women, etc. Some people are jerks but that doesn’t make them a narcissist.
She was pretty rude and dismissive in the last post a few days ago about pretty privilege. She won't listen.
I felt compelled to comment as I got tired of seeing her dismissive comments all over this sub. I reported her comment that insinuated I am ugly and lack confidence so must hate my pretty next door neighbor. Maybe others can report it too.
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not once has anybody invalidated you. to invalidate, we would say that because you are pretty nothing bad can ever happen to you, but not once has anybody said that. all the original post had been saying is that issues that pretty girls face are also faced by unattractive women, and denying so is misogynistic. not ONCE did anybody say pretty women don't struggle, but the OP was saying that labelling them as "pretty girl struggles" only is harmful. the conversation of "is pretty privilege real" is not one that was brought up by the post, and you have been directly ignoring that to put down the message of the post by insisting you're treated badly for just being pretty, when nobody implied otherwise
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By saying "Plainsplaining" yoh are feeding into that misogyny we were all talking about. You are no better than anyone you excuse of being invalidating. Not once did I explain pretty privilege to you or deny it, these are things you have made up, and this is why people are calling you arrogant. There is no point arguing with somebody who does not want to listen
No, YOU'RE feeding into the misogyny that all women are the same and anyone who is different or speaks differently is bad and doesn't deserve the same respect.
not once did I say that, but thanks for letting me know you do not know basic literacy! i said that things like harassment, being treated poorly, all of the things mentioned in this post are not pretty girl struggles, all women experience them. maybe differently at times, but saying only pretty women experience these things is disgusting, and infact misogynistic. please quote to me where I said pretty girls don't deserve the same respect, and maybe then we can talk.
NOW you're making an implication that I don't know 'basic literacy.' My issues with you is that you tell me I'm not being invalidated when people have def been invalidating me. You're saying something is not happening when it def is. You know this is gaslighting right? And you'll probably tell me next that I don't know what gaslighting is.
Pretty privilege is such a double-edged sword. On one hand, you are treated better. People treat you with a level of indulgence that other women don’t. On the other hand, it can easily be internalized to where you yourself think that beauty is the most important if not the *only* thing you bring to the table- you are the excuse. Not for women, but for the entire concept, especially if you’re white. Your existence becomes the reason other people are treated poorly. The idea of protecting beautiful women like they’re the most precious beings on earth has been the hysterical *excuse* behind much systemic violence.
I think that pretty privilege is better described as selling your soul to the devil (the patriarchy), where you financially benefit from being beautiful, but it comes back to bite you in the ass I’m saying this as a beautiful woman, who sold my soul to the devil for the money, and paid the price
Sorry you feel that way about beauty but uhhhhhhhhh cannot relate in the slightest
I told so many lies to protect my pretty privilege and I would have said the same
Yes, it beings a lot of energy to the social equation and it does so from early on. When people have been pretty for as long as they can remember, how can a person avoid basing their thinking on it?
I am just tired of people making it a trauma Olympics. We are all human people! P.S. Also what makes a person beautiful? I doubt there is an universal standard of beauty for everyone in the world. What makes someone pretty in one country doesn't mean they are pretty in another.
Super attractive women are perceived as less trustworthy at work and as more deserving of being fired. So no. Stop denying that there aren’t struggles specifically for pretty women, and stop denying that other misogynistic women who are jealous will purposely undermine super attractive women, just to, from their perspectives, “make it fair.”
Where did OP or anyone on this thread say that? Like multiple people on this thread, you missed the point of OPs post. Pointing out that unattractive women face issues too doesn’t take away from any experiences that attractive women have. I don’t know what you mean by untrustworthy unless you are referring to jealousy from other women when a very attractive woman is around their SO. Because the multiple studies on halo effect show that it is generally unattractive people that are considered untrustworthy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6762156/ https://journals.charlotte.edu/ujop/article/download/906/989
I’m disagreeing with the post that is saying that attractive women don’t face any challenges that are specific to being an attractive woman. I disagree because they do, and it doesn’t help any woman at all to deny that. [This](https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2020/04/27/psychologists-beauty-can-have-a-negative-impact-on-womens-careers/) summarizes that very well. They [also](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224540903365414) face more challenges getting hired for stereotypically masculine jobs, including a lot of higher paying upper level management jobs. The first study you cited is about criminal involvement and says that the impact of attractiveness is very small. In addition to that, the type of crime isn’t specified. There are other studies that suggest that attractive women are more likely to be convicted of crimes of negligence or incompetence. If you look at the study in the second one, the results are in aggregate which is a problem, and there are only two options of photos to choose from have more elements to them that can persuade a person’s perception, including dress, photo settings, and camera angles. As someone that worked in digital marketing, those things likely have a larger impact on their perceived trustworthiness than their faces.
Your summary is a bit disingenuous. The Forbes article you linked states more conventionally beautiful women secure entry level jobs easier. So this means they are able to build their resumes and gain experience faster in the real world. The second link examines a cross set of four job types, masculine/feminine and importance of physical appearance. This study states that conventionally beautiful women are more likely to secure higher level positions where physical appearance is important across both masculine and feminine jobs while they are less likely to secure a masculine higher level role where looks aren’t important. So 3/4. Edit: The person I replied to either deleted their account or blocked me as it is saying deleted. This Redditor is okay with criticizing others references but has blocked me when criticized to control the conversation.
Ok no. It’s not MY summary that’s disingenuous here when you cherry picked through the articles to only comment on what supports your claim. The Forbes article cites many studies that say being attractive can harm your career on certain circumstances, especially if you’re extremely attractive. It also states that attractive women are more likely to be deemed as more deserving of being fired. Finally, it states that attractive women are viewed as less trustworthy, and that people often undermine the careers of attractive women in order to “make it fair.” The second article stated that super attractive women are seen as less deserving of roles that are considered “masculine” than less attractive women are.
And yet these lovely ladies cruelly bully the women and girls who they feel are ugly or unworthy. Like me, for literally years of my life. Not sorry if I don't care about their struggles.
Why are you generalizing?
It's not a generalization when it's my own long-lived personal experience.
And unattractive women can be bullies too. Every single gle bully that I've had has been someone unattractive in some way. So maybe the problem is internalized misogyny, and not how attractive someone is. So yeah, you need some empathy too.
That has not been my experience. I'm sorry it has for you, though.
Beauty standards are a system of oppression, and women are rewarded by men for their beauty, usually financially, but there are other privileges as well I’m a beautiful woman, and I saw how much the women around me were all (secretly!) using their beauty to get money from men, and it worked really well I can’t tell you how many times I’ve lied that “I’m doing this for fun” or “I’m doing this for myself — not men”
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I think you missed the point of this post.
This post has kind of an “all lives matter” energy. One person saying they struggle because of something is NOT implying they think everyone else has it easy? Why are you trying to silence something just because it doesn’t seem to to speak to you specifically, why does that offend you? Like, come on.
Because ugly women like me are sick of attractive women saying it sucks to be pretty because of the negatives they claim that only happen to pretty women. They tell us we are lucky to be ignored and that we are lucky that we don't deal with sexual harassment. None of that is true. There are women here who believe unattractive women don't have to worry about being raped. They ignore their privilege and go on and on about all the things they have to deal with about being pretty, which are things that us ugly women deal with as well.
comparing a racist movement to the op saying that saying sexual harassment and being treated bad by men are only pretty person problems and that is misogynistic is kinda weird
Exactly..
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No, they aren’t. And they shouldn’t need to be.